Mid

Gina Haspel - allegedly ran secret prison in Thailand

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1 hour ago, Blue Crab said:

Heh. Well, someone is confused but it sure isn't me. 

I'm still in shock knowing that there are folks in this forum that couldn't find it in their chromosomes to torture a person to potentially save the lives of millions of their countrymen and women. That's kind of taking being nice too far. Those guys in Gitmo are not just randumb guys with overdue library books.

This is war. It's ugly and it is real as fuck. Lead, follow, or keep quiet and let the pros do the work.

No, I think you're confused.

Which side are you on? If there is no difference between the two sides, then it doesn't matter. Nor does it matter who wins.

-DSK

 

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I hate to quote Charlie Sheen but winning is key. We're the new guys and didn't make the rules. I'm not thrilled with torture but this is life or death.

I feel no need to roll out my creds. I'm an old guy on a 6ktSB, but Philly: you don't know what you're talking about.

Bush/ Cheney: Bush was the dummy on the knee. Didn't get my wasted votes. Trillions of bux and many lives lost for nothing that helped Americans.

Had I been in charge we'd have the oil and the entire Middle East wouldn't be locked and loaded. And I'd have done with the advice and consent of Congress or not at all.

 

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8 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

I hate to quote Charlie Sheen but winning is key. We're the new guys and didn't make the rules. I'm not thrilled with torture but this is life or death.

...    ...   ...

 

Really? Funny thing, we "won" quite a lot without torturing prisoners, for about 228 or 229 years.

It is indeed life or death, the life or death of a moral system.

The funny thing is, many intel professionals both i the military and OGAs  have said that NO actionable information has ever come from torture. OTOH quite a lot of very valuable info has come from ( hang on) being nice to people. The most valuable counter-insurgency operative in Iran was a guy whose daughter needed an operation which the US gave here.

It's not just bad. It's a bad idea. Doesn't work, just makes more enemies.

-DSK

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6 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

Really? Funny thing, we "won" quite a lot without torturing prisoners, for about 228 or 229 years.

It is indeed life or death, the life or death of a moral system.

The funny thing is, many intel professionals both i the military and OGAs  have said that NO actionable information has ever come from torture. OTOH quite a lot of very valuable info has come from ( hang on) being nice to people. The most valuable counter-insurgency operative in Iran was a guy whose daughter needed an operation which the US gave here.

It's not just bad. It's a bad idea. Doesn't work, just makes more enemies.

-DSK

Torture is a lot like the death penalty: wrong even if it worked, which it doesn't.

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12 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

Really? Funny thing, we "won" quite a lot without torturing prisoners, for about 228 or 229 years.

It is indeed life or death, the life or death of a moral system.

The funny thing is, many intel professionals both i the military and OGAs  have said that NO actionable information has ever come from torture. OTOH quite a lot of very valuable info has come from ( hang on) being nice to people. The most valuable counter-insurgency operative in Iran was a guy whose daughter needed an operation which the US gave here.

It's not just bad. It's a bad idea. Doesn't work, just makes more enemies.

-DSK

Jeez Doug, the stakes have changed and you missed it. Millions of us are in harm's way everyday now at the push of a cell phone. That's a big change, Cap. This is why we do our spying, and other actions under cover. Everyday folks are happier not knowing and by extension, not dying. CIA is playing along. Americans don't like torture? OK, let's keep em happy by lying about it. Let's appear really fucking sorry, say all the right things like "many intel professionals both i the military and OGAs  have said that NO actionable information has ever come from torture." Pardon the pun but that's some tortured logic right there.

I wish we could leave morality out of the conversation. It isn't real. We make it up as we go. And so does everyone else. It's fine for everyday life with the golden rule and all. But when we are defending ourselves against unimaginable cruelty on many sides by folks just as moral by their standards, the morality arguments are a wash. This is life or death on a scale not foreseen.

And speaking of the dreaded death penalty, that giant sucking sound is our money going down the drain storing the real deplorables in our midst. In prison, these people (at least they started out as people) are subjected to cruel and unusual punishment like isolation, or guard-approved sexual depravity and violence and much much more. Where's that morality now? 

Americans have grown up with a 3 strikes policy. This is already vastly more liberal than we see elsewhere. Fine. We all realize that we treat our low lifes better that we do the homeless. I for one, don't see why. Where's the morality? Do prison guards have morality? Politicians? And why are "white-collar" criminals treated differently. Is that moral? We could easily fix that one but we don't. I fail to see why.

Have you dyed-in-the-wool liberals thought this through? How many incorrigible (3X) prisoners are we willing to support for their lifetimes, with health care and shelter far out of reach of the working poor? Someone tell me what's right and moral about that.

Morality arguments don't cut it in the real world.

 

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Crab - reduce the hyperbole. The current threats against our way of life are nothing more than bee stings compared to what happened in the past.

WW II was a REAL life or death struggle and we didn't resort to torture and the like. That was left to the Nazi's and the Japanese.

If you fight scum like ISIS using their methods, what are you fighting FOR?

Morality is WHY we fight - or do you think it's just for Lincoln Navigators for everyone?

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5 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

Jeez Doug, the stakes have changed and you missed it.

...     ...     ...     ...

Morality arguments don't cut it in the real world.

 

Only for those who have no moral principles.

As for the "stakes have changed" that is simply not the case, any time you look at the situation deeply. Has the US nation itself been in danger in the past? Yes, both from within and from outside. Have individuals been in danger? ..... hmm that's a toughie, huh

1 minute ago, SloopJonB said:

Crab - reduce the hyperbole. The current threats against our way of life are nothing more than bee stings compared to what happened in the past.

WW II was a REAL life or death struggle and we didn't resort to torture and the like. That was left to the Nazi's and the Japanese.

If you fight scum like ISIS using their methods, what are you fighting FOR?

Why, for Truth and Freedom and apple pie.

And remember, what makes us free is that we have rights that are protected from gov't over-reach, like our gov't can't throw us in jail under false pretenses and torture confessions out of us...... oops, wait a minute

-DSK

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8 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Crab - reduce the hyperbole. The current threats against our way of life are nothing more than bee stings compared to what happened in the past.

WW II was a REAL life or death struggle and we didn't resort to torture and the like. That was left to the Nazi's and the Japanese.

If you fight scum like ISIS using their methods, what are you fighting FOR?

Morality is WHY we fight - or do you think it's just for Lincoln Navigators for everyone?

Sloop, I have to disagree totally with your first point. We've never faced anything like this where our electrical grid, transportation, and fuel supply is vulnerable, bacterial agents could contaminate the water and air besides being blown to bits.

Item 2: Maybe. I wasn't there. But people are people.

#3: We're fighting for our continued existence. Nothing less. Hold the apple pie. Only dummies continue to eat dessert anyway.

Four: Nuh uh.

I do appreciate both your and Doug's courtesy in your replies. Obviously we not going to agree and I think your opinions are just as valid as mine.

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9 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

....    ...

I do appreciate both your and Doug's courtesy in your replies. Obviously we not going to agree and I think your opinions are just as valid as mine.

Thanks, and there is no reason to get snarky over a disagreement whether moral principles exist

:rolleyes:

-DSK

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Congratulations to our new CIA Director, Gina Haspel!

 

Let the torturing begin!

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Hey, Blue C, I don't think you get the point that what protects us from the terrorist attack today may lead to countless more attacks in the future. Going to war in Iraq, based on viewpoints like yours, led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, ISIS and continued the cycle of hatred against the US, and will lead to the deaths of Americans in the future. Torturing our prisoners, although it might save hundreds, or even thousands in the short term, will continue this cycle and simply cause deeper pain in the future. You would have us invest in this cycle, and have us throw good money after bad.

You can call it quaint, old fashioned, or stupid, but some Americans are willing to stand up for what we believe, to live and die for the principles we espouse. Torturing prisoners is one of these issues. You can argue the other side of the coin, but you're not going to convince us based on hyperbole. We simply don't think its effective in the short term or the long term, and we don't want it on our conscience. Tell the troops to get it done without this tool, and that's what they are fighting for.

And don't worry, we cry a river over Somalia, over the Second Battle for Fallujah, but we hurt the enemy far worse than he hurt us. We laid waste to their towns, their families & their fighters far more than we were hurt. We are winning, and we are gonna have to deal with the consequences.

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I get the point but i have to reject it based on what we know about radical Islam. They cut off heads and blow up people randomly, goddammit! These fucks just don't have our sense of morality. To worry about recruitment of more terrorists is a waste of good angst.

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45 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

I get the point but i have to reject it based on what we know about radical Islam. They cut off heads and blow up people randomly, goddammit! These fucks just don't have our sense of morality. To worry about recruitment of more terrorists is a waste of good angst.

It ain’t just about them. You would like to think that torturing just hurts the victim. Just like all violence, both parties are affected. The PTSD of those who torture others is real, as is the effects on the society that condones immoral behavior. 

This isn’t easy to acknowledge... torture feels good in the short term, but causes long term destructive guilt and anxiety, suicide and drug & alcohol abuse at rates much higher than combat. 

And it usually isn’t effective in developing good intel, but once started is often just continued as those involved try to “out do” others in imaginative sadism. 

If it is ineffective, hurts our troops and causes significant blowback for relatively little reward; there are few arguments that support the use of torture in a modern professional army. And just such an army is NOT supposed to match the sadism or immorality of jihadists. That’s kinda the point. 

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8 hours ago, phillysailor said:

Just like all violence, both parties are affected.

I agree with philly's points here but would point out that it's more than "both" parties. Those tortured have friends and family.

How would you feel about a foreign power that tortured your friends and family, Blue Crab? Might you be more easily recruited to fight against them? Or not?

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I don't believe jihadists need any additional motivation for their behavior. They're doing God's work in their minds ( just like we think we are).

I don't pull wings off butterflies or that stuff but here, the ends justify the means in my opinion.

I'm leaving this here guys as our positions are known. 

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^

 

simply leaving the door wide open for the same and worse to be used against you .

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1 hour ago, Blue Crab said:

I don't believe jihadists need any additional motivation for their behavior. They're doing God's work in their minds ( just like we think we are).

...     ...     ...

This shows why the seperation of Church and State is pretty important. In no way is the US doing "God's work" and I would strongly distrust anybody who said that it is/was, or should be.

1 hour ago, Blue Crab said:

...     ...     ...

I don't pull wings off butterflies or that stuff but here, the ends justify the means in my opinion.

...     ...    ...

Okay, you believe "the end justifies the means" so put that principle into action. You need money, go rob a bank. Shoot a couple of people and take their wallets.

You don't do that already? Why not? Possibly because you believe it's wrong (in conflict with believing the end justify means) or perhaps you realize that it will not work as a long-term plan.

Torture is the same thing...... not going to produce the desired result in the long run. ISIS and the Taliban cannot govern a region successfully, because their brutal methods including torture are destructive of all public order. Their regions become squalid destitute areas of huddling people trying to survive ad hoping to escape. OTOH a region that is governed on principles of stability and respect for the rights of even the lowest person will be prosperous & productive. ISIS is collapsing as much as it was defeated on the battlefield, it was propped up by oil money while it lasted.

1 hour ago, Blue Crab said:

...    ...    ...    ...

I'm leaving this here guys as our positions are known. 

OK

39 minutes ago, Mid said:

^

simply leaving the door wide open for the same and worse to be used against you .

By our own government.

-DSK

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On 5/17/2018 at 11:42 AM, SloopJonB said:

Crab - reduce the hyperbole. The current threats against our way of life are nothing more than bee stings compared to what happened in the past.

WW II was a REAL life or death struggle and we didn't resort to torture and the like. That was left to the Nazi's and the Japanese.

If you fight scum like ISIS using their methods, what are you fighting FOR?

Morality is WHY we fight - or do you think it's just for Lincoln Navigators for everyone?

If morality is why we fight why have we killed millions of innocent civilians in the effort?

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2 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

I don't believe jihadists need any additional motivation for their behavior. They're doing God's work in their minds ( just like we think we are).

I don't pull wings off butterflies or that stuff but here, the ends justify the means in my opinion.

I'm leaving this here guys as our positions are known. 

 

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4 hours ago, Dog said:

If morality is why we fight why have we killed millions of innocent civilians in the effort?

Collateral Damage.

Acceptable Losses.

 

Take your pick.

 

Morality is a component of "why we fight".

If torture is O/K them why not machine gunning prisoners?

Why not concentration camps for our opponents?

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CIA director headed to Turkey amid Khashoggi investigation

Quote

The Post, which cited sources familiar with the matter, noted that Haspel's arrival in Turkey will come as Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan plans on Tuesday to announce the findings of his country's investigation into the death of Khashoggi. 

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/412651-cia-director-headed-to-turkey-amid-khashoggi-investigation

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On 5/21/2018 at 6:47 AM, Blue Crab said:

I don't believe jihadists need any additional motivation for their behavior. They're doing God's work in their minds ( just like we think we are).

I don't pull wings off butterflies or that stuff but here, the ends justify the means in my opinion.

I'm leaving this here guys as our positions are known. 

Do you pull the fuzz of of caterpillars?.....

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