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I am looking to source some used M243 sails to start rebuilding a boat. It currently has no white sails. Before we get anything new, or decide we will pursue this future, we wanted to get out and sail the boat. Please contact me at 40 eight, three 1 six, ten 91, or through an SA message?

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...gawrsh,, that'll be a really fun boat for the Bay.

The marketplace is so small for 243's, and inactive,,, I doubt you'll find much in the used market for sails.  :mellow:

 

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You are correct. This is a scary fast boat in the bay during the summer. There were only 18 built (in Vancouver, BC). I am just hoping to find some beater sails as the boat has no sails. More of a "donation" than finding anything that would be race-worthy.

 

The boat needs work...

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You are correct. This is a scary fast boat in the bay during the summer. There were only 18 built (in Vancouver, BC). I am just hoping to find some beater sails as the boat has no sails. More of a "donation" than finding anything that would be race-worthy.

 

The boat needs work...

Yah, Donny was quite the visionary with that design, they'd still be a phenomena if they were a new release!

Why not check the Aussie sport boat market, sounds like you'd be fine with something shorter on mast, boom or roach,, especially for SF. :blink:

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Wish they would fit!

The M24 and M243 sails are so different that not much fits. The luff curve on the 243 main is ridiculous. The jibs are too narrow. The M24 kites are to small. I tried that before.

 

Most of the sails would look like suer storm sails.

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......Most of the sails would look like suer storm sails.

not sure what 'suer' is,, but it might not be a bad plan to have some sort of cut-downs,,, even if they just get you on the water for low $ to start.  :mellow:

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Thanks Couchsurfer. "suer" was supposed to be " short storm sails".

 

I have a practice main, supposedly a "racing" main, a tired jib (with a "good shape"), and 2 kites (of undisclosed character). I have some off wind solutions on board. White sails are an area to reinforce.

We are facing the windy part of our year in SF; meaning 18+ knots most days. Many days will grow to 25+ knots.

 

The hope was to locate some 2nd rank sails that I cold blow up this summer, while being flogged. Then by the fall, buy a new set of sails. I've been pretty lucky finding used sail in other boat's spare/old/unused sail lockers. I will try Minnies, and the other usual suspects of course. The OZ option was not one I had considered. Maybe I could find a jib solution?

 

I am going to look up the jib dimensions and follow up with a post later. 

 

Thanks again.

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Anyone have any jibs that fit these dimensions? Really looking for seeming close to the 100% jib rather that the 140%. If it is close, we can cut it down as was suggested previously.

JIB:

I=28.20/8.59

J=9.00/2.74

LP=8.39/2.56 – 93%

AREA=187.62/11.85

 

MAIN:

P=32.90/10.03

E= 13.50/4.10

AREA= 304.52/28.46

 

 

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I gotta be honest, having sailed these boats a bit.  Sails or no sails, repeat sailing in 20+ knots of breeze will result in sinking your M243 sooner rather than later.

You really ought to start by reinforcing and possibly increasing the size of the rudder, and then extend the racks aft another 2 feet.  And then put a whole bunch of buoyancy bags inside.

Then think about all the possible ways the rig could break,  starting with inversion of the upper rig and ending with inversion of the entire boat somewhere near Berkley, and things you could do to prevent these scenarios.

 

Then get better sails.

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I agree. M243 boats were designed for where 90% of the sailing is done in the world = under 8 knots. The M243 power band seems to extend from 5 knots to 15 knots true. SF Summers regularly produce bigger winds than that. The M243 should stay away from the city front in an ebb tide. The 3 Melges 24's that I owned were no picnic either. There are 50 foot lead sleds for that weather.

 

The long term, original owners of the boats tell me that they have managed to survive a long time (20 years) with their boats with minimal damage. I am in conversations with 2 of them. They say there were a lot of owners and crews that were measured to be wanting in this powered up of a boat. A lot of people left their egos on the water.

 

I suppose that is the fun of it all. The M243 is a boat for the lunatic fringe, they say.

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11 hours ago, zks7 said:

M243 boats were designed for where 90% of the sailing is done in the world = under 8 knots.   .......

Sounds much like 49ers.   My GF and I used to have a ball with a modified 49er with a couple of modifications..... 'sport' sails were slightly short, but a lot less roach, where the power resides.  I also added ~20:1 adjusters on the main shrouds, this made it a reasonably simple matter to depower for squally sections, but power up the small sails in the lulls.    Perhaps a similar approach will help on your boat, but of course those recco's of adding buoyancy and extending the wing bar sound pretty useful as well.  :mellow:

 

 

 

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Couchsurfer and Schnick,

Of course you are both correct. Moderation and understanding where in the wind band this boat will be successful, is paramount. A long time friend reminds me that any boat will be successful, sailing to its rating, on its given day.

 

Colin Chapman, designer of Lotus Motor cars, was an advocate of building his cars as (too) lightly as possible. He wanted to push the boundaries of design. Then he would repair/modify/strengthen the damaged part as his response to evolution. He thought it was real life, practical, evolution. 

 

Adding weight to the keel (suggested), adding length to the racks, and many more modifications will make a different, less radical, boat. It will also add PHRF time and change the designers concept. There were only 14 (18?) of these boats built. Some say the boat was a new, radical, but under budgeted, development process. In any case, Don Martin created what some called the fastest 24 foot sailboat (at that time). The hatch was novel and required learning its use. Some boats failed because either the hatch was not deployed, or secured. One owner told me that on two occasions the hatch left the boat (once sinking, the next one was created as positively buoyant). The unsecured hatch left the hull during a knockdown (after that day it was always positively secured). He said his boat filled up, but did not sink. So concern about sinking could be (is?) alleviated by securing the hatch.

 

We personally have had a rack breach its track:

We had just started a reverse pursuit race. The day started light, but winds increased and were gusting 25 true. We were heavy (operating limit is 700 pounds of crew weight), sitting (pretty dry) on the forward most part of the rack. We had just reported abandoning the race to the RC. We cracked off to close reach back to our harbor. We accelerated (it was fun, but we were puckering up), and as we did so we stuffed the hull into a wave that went over the bow and back to the cockpit. At that time the fastener for the aft ram broke loose from the appliance, pulling the track up from the cockpit. Most of us went into the water. 

 

The boat was knocked down, and we needed to get back into the boat. Skipper stayed with/in the boat. Hatch was in place, got the parts into the boat, deployed the motor, and motor sailed the boat into the harbor. Boat damaged, humans dismayed, egos damaged.

 

That moment, and a few more, are scored into our collective memories. Our crew all sail competitively. The memory of that boat, what it could do, lives on and we all talk about it. We wanted to see if we could relive that adrenalin rush. The issue for us now is to see if we could be more intelligent about when we race, and what our moment might be. It is not banging up the city front, in an ebb and 25 knots of breeze, gusting 30 apparent. But off the wind, what a rush that should be.

 

Currently we need to get some sails. Racing sails eventually, but just operating sails for this summer. Then we might get interested in obtaining appropriate sails for the next years, quieter (no storms), winter sailing here in SF. 

 

We will see what else we learned in a couple of years.

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5abe8e5165225_FAST18kts.thumb.jpg.6d3bc6e35cbee5353750d110b25459c4.jpg

 

Exceedingly fun boat. In my next life when I'm a  boat builder, spar builder, and metal fabricator I'd build a bulletproof one.  We had Ghost out in 20kts (Above) a couple of time. I was always worried about breaking the mast.  Making the wing connections, mast step, and keel connection super solid would be priorities. 

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Great picture.

 

Pintail? Where is the square top? 5 people? Pushing it?

 

This is one of those boats that sticks in your mind. Maybe it is the fear?

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This was first day sailing Ghost so a few months before the 3Di sails. We might have had 6 on that day...

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Geez, that seems like a lot of weight? Over the 700 pounds suggested.

 

Martin #9 arrived yesterday. Improvement from #1. But in need of a lot of T&C. This is different than #1 in a lot of interesting ways. This was from the original owner and he lost interest in it over the past few years: need new tuning rigging, and a lot of nits. The hull, mast, and blades are really in serviceable shape. Look like principally light use boat. New sails coming of course.

 

The question about rudder length was answered: the newer rudders were longer than #1. The rudder fits inside the Melges 24 rudder bag. It is a little thinner. Very high aspect rudder.

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It was a lot of weight but it was fast!  I think that was before we knew the 700lbs rule...

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working on more positively stabilizing the racks now. The Florida folks have completely eliminated the tracks for the Racks. They are using 4 stainless fixtures. Each one has a Heim joint on the deck to look the arms down.

 

I am using a set of adjustable  Spectra lines over each of the arms at the track end, more fasteners on the track end, and using a support wire(s) from the forward most  (furthest outside) arm back to the stern (like a guy wire).

 

See if that does any better. The stainless shoe solution may be the best answer. You lose the convenience of one person mounting of the racks. The Florida folks said they hook it up to a halyard(?).

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Here is a nice shot of tack tick from a race a couple of years ago.  I spotted them just after we finished racing for the regatta and it was blowing about 25 knots.  They had just won the regatta and then immediately turtled in the channel to port Tampa Bay.

I am in the red jacket on the stern of the shock 35, happy and dry.

FB_IMG_1453071575858.jpg

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Why does the keel look so short? It is 5'9" deep. Maybe the keel was not locked? Any idea why, especially after the race and looks like no kite up either?

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On 4/9/2018 at 11:38 AM, zks7 said:

Why does the keel look so short? It is 5'9" deep. Maybe the keel was not locked? Any idea why, especially after the race and looks like no kite up either?

It was upwind back to the club so the kite was down.

 

He actually added 1' to his keel, and from my understanding added 8" to the wings on either side as well.

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Great pic. Are there more in the series?

I never ever felt at risk of capsizing on ours. The wings provided good stability when the leeward one skims on the water. Training wheels :P

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Nope, that was all that was taken by someone else.  I spotted them while we were headed in and had the owner of the Shock go over to see if we could render assistance.

 

That boat has spent a lot of time like that.

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Gaaaad.

 

I just bought that boat from the original owner. The owner did not like to tell the entire story about his boat. He was very proud of his boat and denied many discussions about condition of it. I wonder if many of the owners were like that. My guess is that he was pretty casual about the rules of physics, maintenance  and repair. The hull, blades, spars are in terrific shape. The supporting stuff is all consumable(s) and now there is along list of upgrades performed: Delrins, running/.standing rigging.

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2 hours ago, zks7 said:

Gaaaad.

 

I just bought that boat from the original owner. The owner did not like to tell the entire story about his boat. He was very proud of his boat and denied many discussions about condition of it. I wonder if many of the owners were like that. My guess is that he was pretty casual about the rules of physics, maintenance  and repair. The hull, blades, spars are in terrific shape. The supporting stuff is all consumable(s) and now there is along list of upgrades performed: Delrins, running/.standing rigging.

Which boat did you buy?  The one in my photo is Tacktick.

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Hi M32. Yes, you are correct. Tack Tick is owned by Dr. M. (also an original M243 owner), a nice guy. I purchased another boat called Jazz out of Vancouver, B.C..

 

I have been trying (without success) to contact the owner of Tack Tick as he has a wealth of information, sources for M243 parts and adjustments. If you have his contact info, please PM me?

 

I did not realize he spent a serious amount fo time on his side? I thought St. Pete/Tamp had light air?:huh:

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Zks,

Have you seen the sliding shroud adjustment on the Melges 20's?  That would be a pretty slick upgrade to the Martin 243 rigging/tuning package if you can get enough range.

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I have not seen them. I will take a look now, thanks for the suggestion .

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OK. Viewed them.

 

Just like on Solings/Stars, etc. of days past. What is the advantage? Only being able to release the shroud tension downwind(while changing the "chainplate" angle) ? Or engage greater tension upwind?

 

With the huge sweep of the spreaders, no backstay, and large kite, downwind is a liability to support the mast. The risk/reward may favor maintaining the sweep and not releasing the tension and the angle of support. I assume that is why they designed the tension rods hard mounted on the deck?

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When I had the Martin I spend hours turning the turnbuckles. Because the mast is so bendy it required a lot of turns to change gears. 

I was thinking just for ease of general tuning. Have 3 or 4 positions on the ramps then fine tune with the turnbuckles. I don't think I'd let them off downwind...

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The Florida M243 guy (Dr. Mike) said he would take his jib halyard, attach the trailer winch to it, and apply pressure until the forestay went slack. Then he would pull the pin on the forestay, and attach a slack tensioned loop to the front of the stem fitting. He said he would avoid all that turning on shrouds, and keep his rig loose/un-tensioned. 

 

Sounds like an idea we will try this weekend...

 

This will be our first time out to see what does not function. All Delrins replaced, blades laser sited,  replaced all running lines, cleats serviced, installed secondary suspenders on the racks, mildew power washed from all the surfaces, and motor serviced.

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U389,

That is a great idea about multiple positions for tuning purposes. Did you have single or double turnbuckle barrels?

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Does anyone spend time tuning martin rigs. I understand there isnt much development in that area but if anyone has numbers it would be good to know. We sail our boat in SF bay so it gets windy and lumpy and the mast moves A LOT. Carbon fibre and bending arent very good friends in my experience. On any ther boat i would add check stays but theres no room and no winches

 

thanks

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44 minutes ago, RobbieE said:

Does anyone spend time tuning martin rigs. I understand there isnt much development in that area but if anyone has numbers it would be good to know. We sail our boat in SF bay so it gets windy and lumpy and the mast moves A LOT. Carbon fibre and bending arent very good friends in my experience. On any ther boat i would add check stays but theres no room and no winches

 

thanks

Actually - carbon and bending go well together - far better than alu and bending

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Christian-

 

just because its “better” doesnt mean its good.

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23 minutes ago, RobbieE said:

Christian-

 

just because its “better” doesnt mean its good.

My fly rods disagree - some of them can bend almost tip to handle. I'ts abut the engineering/lay up schedule.  Carbon can be built into almost whatever you want in terms of spars

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I had a ton of pre-bend in mine, rig. Lots of tension on the caps, mast struts fully extended.The other boats that have sailed in SF Bay have had runners from the hounds to the aft end of the outer wings. 

Mast Stdb Side.jpg

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1) Do you have any numbers (wind range) on your rig tensions (via a Loos gauge or pounds of tension)?

2) Do you have a base setting (for 7-8 knots)?

3) Do you have a rake measurement? 

4) Did the top 1-2 feet of the luff rope (head) of your sail come out of the track at the top? 

5) Did your mast struts have any bend in them under a load? Or were they perfectly straight under load? Even at rest, unloaded off the mast, mine have a slight bend to them that I endeavor to “straighten".

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1) Yes. Med-Heavy Air using Loos PT-2. Cpas: 13.5, D2: 13.5, D1: 9, Forestay 17

2) Not particularly, looser than above, depending on sail shape/power.

3) Yes, 38ft, 9in from masthead to transom

4) No, Never

5) Yes, they were slightly, permanently bent. If I had kept the boat a better solution was needed. 

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Looks like about 8-9 inches of prebend? is that about right?

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Has anyone experimented with runners and check stays? i know #1 had them and they were atrocious but has anyone else tried them?

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Just started playing around with one of these beauties in Boston. This one has runners and a tin rig. First sail we were double handed in 10 knots gusting high teens with JAM only. What a fucking hoot this thing is. Like a mini, way scarier Cone.

Takeaways:

-Needs at least 3 skilled sailors to get the kite up. We were managing with two but it's difficult for helm to trim because it's a two hand job (main trimming).

-Has anyone tried trimming main straight from the boom turning block w/o a cleat? An asshole on the main sheet is probably worse case scenario on this thing and the loads seem manageable with a ratchet block...

-May be worth adding some buoyancy to the racks?

-Add bungees to the runners to pull them forward of the boom end when lazy.

-Bring a dry bag for valuables!

-Anyone successfully rig up a trapeze?

Any tips or tricks? We'll probably be sailing mostly with 3 ~220lbs guys, so just about max for the racks.

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The Martin 243 is a hoot.

Great fun to sail and can be blazing fast - given the correct conditions. We are still sorting out how to get the best out of it in varied conditions. You feel like a rock star when the winds are above 8 and under 11. Going downwind is fun when you can power up (around 6), gets a plane, while others are not yet at full power. It will get hairy when we don't have enough skilled hands aboard. It is a very technical boat requiring at least one very skilled (A level) hand (aside from the helm), the closer it gets to 12 knots true.

I owned your boat (it was called Black Shadow when I bought it) about 2 years ago in San Francisco Bay. If you would like more information about it, please PM me and we can talk about our experiences in depth. It is really a lot of fun and, as you said, it picks up speed below 10 knots true very rapidly. The boat you have is the Prototype, #1 boat. you can tell it is #, I was told, since it is the only one that had a metal mast. There are a few other things that are unique to #1, like the struts on the rudder pintles.

I now own the ninth boat (CAN 9).

 

To answer some of your questions:

You can sail the boat without skilled (recreational/average/C level) sailors  if the winds are below 8 and you are nimble. 16 feet of width gives a lot of leverage to your weight.

It is a lot more fun when you have 4 pairs of hands, however. We had no issues trimming the main with 2 or 3. It took longer. Jibing is an issue with the main. Spaghetti mainsheet on an aft traveller seems to want to catch on everything. The same is true of the long tiller extensions. They catch on the skis and netting.

The boat will put its mast into the water. There remedy, at worst, is standing on the keel, (In less than 25-30 knots true), with a kite up the boat self rights. It is not difficult or scary. Especially if you sail dinghies - or skiffs in particular. Our less experienced (C level) crew managed to do it with a kite when it was gusting 25-30. No big deal getting it upright. Just dramatic to others watching. Make sure you put a lock on the hatch so that it will stay in position, not float away ,or dislodge. Make sure the hatch floats (add flotation).

We did not find buoyancy on the racks interesting/necessary.

We do not have runners on the #9 boat. The solution is to keep a lot of tension on the shrouds.

We found that staying under 700 pounds on the racks an absolute rule. Additionally, do not put all the weight on a single Ama. Spread the weight out in big waves - move everyone back, of course, in waves and downwind.

The rudder action on #1 is different than #9. #9 has added (more) rudder surface for rudder authority at low speeds (and stability at higher speeds).

If you need the specs for shroud tension snd rake, as mentioned, PM me?

 

The Martin 243 is a hoot.

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This Side Up! Just remember with winged beast are a bitch once turtled.  Always wear a PFD and carry emergency knife to cut you way outta the mess underwater.  Two peeps dies in ChiMac 2011 on Wingnut.

 

 

Alt_Wingnuts12.jpg

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Thanks for your concern

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1 hour ago, Murphness said:

Thanks for your concern

"Toto, I have a feeling we're not on a Viper anymore!"

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Trust me, it won't be the first time this particular M243 has thrown anyone in the water. But we're not talking about trying to do the chi-mac in squalls, we're talking about coastal racing in a pretty well-populated sailing area. the worst that happens is we laugh at murph a bit (while concealing our jealousy) before we help him out of the drink and then get him a drink and ask, "so... how fast?"

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We sail several times per month - year round. Hence, we are always hunting more crew. We have had a lot of fun with newbies (to the boat). We pull in many folks from shore, who claim (correctly) they have sailing experience. Their claim interest in the uniqueness of the racks; the speed possibility brings them (bravely) aboard. The boat is very comfortable to sit in, but takes a few steps to get across from side to side. Jibing in winds really tightens you up. Surprisingly, many report they were more sedentary than they realized. The lack of lifelines has caused many more members than expected joining the Martin 243 Swim Team.

 

Most afterwards, report they are humbled specifically by the physical and technical requirements of the Martin. They tell us that is what makes them (members of the lunatic fringe) interested in taking a ride (once). Being an adrenalin junkie keeps some coming back. This is especially true  when the SF Bay summer winds visit us. Under 11 knots, reports are recalled that we were all rock stars.

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2 hours ago, ryley said:

Trust me, it won't be the first time this particular M243 has thrown anyone in the water. But we're not talking about trying to do the chi-mac in squalls, we're talking about coastal racing in a pretty well-populated sailing area. the worst that happens is we laugh at murph a bit (while concealing our jealousy) before we help him out of the drink and then get him a drink and ask, "so... how fast?"

There will definitely be laughing! My newest challenge is trying to figure out how to get some cupholders installed. 

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Use the ones with suction behind the skipper until you locate one that bother you least...

We use bags on each corner of the hatch, long vertical ones. We also have bags (with screws) between the shrouds and the forward AMA. That sit still not enough but about as much as I can handle.

 

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Two questions:

(1) Did these originally come with kelp cutters?

(2) As to the rig tension issue, would a hand operated mast jack be possible to more easily adjust rig tension?

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No kelp cutters that I know of originally produced.

 

There is no compression post underneath, just a sizable bulkhead. Easier to release the forestay each time when leaving the boat. Double turnbuckles are good enough so far for tensioning...

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