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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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sailhmb

PHRF Exclusion practice

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Besides PHRFNC in northern California are there any other US PHRF bodies that will not rate a light sportboat?  This is not a knock on the local body.  I'm just wondering how common is this practice.

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Awhile back they offered to bring in sporties if the sporty fleet would create a Committee ala BAMA for the multis. No one showed up.

maybe you can build the group? The guys at BAMA offered their help last time, probably would again.

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Not a bad idea if it allowed light "sporties" to compete in Nor Cal regattas that require a NCPHRF cert.  If it just became another rating system it may not be worth the effort because we already have Portsmouth.  

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2 minutes ago, sailhmb said:

Not a bad idea if it allowed light "sporties" to compete in Nor Cal regattas that require a NCPHRF cert.  If it just became another rating system it may not be worth the effort because we already have Portsmouth.  

The idea was a separate group to create sportie phrf ratings. I don’t think it got far enough last time to deal with things like trophies and class breaks, but like multis, imho I don’t think you can rate say a Viper vs a Catalina 30...

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attendance fixes everything... if you've got enough boats then you can split them off into a sport boat division and the ratings will be good enough to work intra division. The problems are really pronounced only when you have only 6 boats show up and you've got 2 sporties and 4 lead mines and the ratings just don't work. Hell, even with 'conventional' boats the ratings don't hold up that well if you've got 40 footers vs Cal 20's... but if you've got enough people to make a few rating bands then it gets better... if you've got even more boats and can have slow/medium/fast rating bands in sport/light/heavy divisions then you'll really be in good shape...

sometimes I think if we spent as much energy dragging people out on the race course as we do complaining about the rating systems, that we'd find the rating systems aren't that bad after all...

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I do not have much interest racing slow big boats.  They are boring.

There are a number of fast orphan dinghies out there that can race portsmouth together.  The Richmond YC winter series brings together so many different boats that it reminds me of the old Yachting One-of-A-Kind race.  Over the winter we have raced with, a carbon fiber Flying Dutchman, International Canoe, 29er, Melges 17, Contender, K6, Intl-110, Open 5.7, VX 1, Thistle, and Musto Skiff. The Wabbits and U20s start 6 min and 3 min before us. Therefore we are into them by the end of the first lap.  The racing is great. Very few of these boats that sail "open sport" have a NCPHRF cert because their keel is less than 400lbs.    RYC gets this group every year because the use portsmouth instead of NCPHRF.   I believe it is a trend that there be more orphan ODs in the future and a YC would benefit by including them in their regatta planning.

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Just to stop a misnomer, NorCal PHRF doesn’t refuse to rate sporties, little sporties just don’t qualify per the published rules. They don’t rate multis either, yet multis have ratings. How’d they get them? A group took on the work. 

Then, it’s up to the OAs to invite the classes. That’s usually pretty easy as well, if someone calls a club and says “can we race in your beer can series? We’ll have 6 boats every week, and we’ll give you ratings the fleet already agree on” you’ll get as many invites as you can handle.  BAMA execs chase down OAs every year to get included in races. One thing hey found that helped, was to host a major regatta themselves. That takes work too.  If you have 15 regular boats and 5 folks to do the heavy lifting, you can probably make it happen.

its not complicated, but it is a lot of work.

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I checked with Regatta Network and they confirmed that their platform can use Portsmouth rating for a sport boat open class while using a PHRF for another class.   Although it seems obvious I wanted to confirm before stating it. Therefore a new sport boat rating system is not required if the OA is using RN for scoring. 

Do you think lobbying clubs will lead to adding an open sport boat class?  This likely means boats need to show.

Hey sporties!

Which regattas would you like to go to that you are currently “unqualified” for?

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I checked with Regatta Network and they confirmed that their platform can use Portsmouth rating for a sport boat open class while using a PHRF for another class.   Although it seems obvious I wanted to confirm before stating it. Therefore a new sport boat rating system is not required if the OA is using RN for scoring. 

Do you think lobbying clubs will lead to adding an open sport boat class?  This likely means boats need to show.

Hey sporties!

Which regattas would you like to go to that you are currently “unqualified” for?

I suppose another approach could be a list of races that are open to small sport boats that can't get phrf certs?  I know Corinthian midwinters have allowed exceptions in the past and of course there's the small boat races like RYC's small boat midwinter and the RYC big dinghy & Totally Dinghy, Delta Dinghy Ditch, etc.  Which other races have made exceptions to small sports w/o phrf certs in the past?  Have the Berkeley mids allowed small sporties previously?  Maybe some of the Friday night summer series races?

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I recommend that you stick with PHRF, and not switch to another rating system where you probably won't get any sportboat data.

Maybe you have to form your own organization, but there is lots of data for sportboat PHRF ratings. Here is what I compiled. I hope it helps.

We started with one sportboat (a Viper 640), and now have three Viper 640s and five J/70s, and sportboat scoring for all Wednesday events, one big weekend event, and an annual Viper 640 regatta. We also have an eight-event Etchells/Sportboat series, mostly on Mondays.

We also do not have safety requirements for PHRF ratings or race registration, maybe thanks to the Etchells.

I always got the impression that if you try to mandate safety, you add liability to your organization.

Cheers from Lake Champlain,

Jason

PHRF%20Sportboat%20Matrix.pdf

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I recommend that you stick with PHRF, and not switch to another rating system where you probably won't get any sportboat data.

Maybe you have to form your own organization, but there is lots of data for sportboat PHRF ratings. Here is what I compiled. I hope it helps.

We started with one sportboat (a Viper 640), and now have three Viper 640s and five J/70s, and sportboat scoring for all Wednesday events, one big weekend event, and an annual Viper 640 regatta. We also have an eight-event Etchells/Sportboat series, mostly on Mondays.

We also do not have safety requirements for PHRF ratings or race registration, maybe thanks to the Etchells.

I always got the impression that if you try to mandate safety, you add liability to your organization.

Cheers from Lake Champlain,

Jason

PHRF%20Sportboat%20Matrix.pdf

The issue here is that NorCal phrf committee don’t feel they can rate sporties. Maybe data would help, don’t know. They were willing to support another committee setting sporty ratings, but no one stepped forward. Maybe someone will now.

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Our LC PHRF committee has three Vermont clubs, one New York club, and one Quebec club. Five clubs, two states, one province, two countries.

I have no doubt that PHRF is way more complicated in California and Long Island Sound!

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Streetwise- I have followed your data gathering with great interest. Thank you for publishing your work.  

Since Richmond Yacht club has been rating the sporties for a number of years in Portsmouth. I do not see why that cannot be continued.  Is there some problem with PY? 

The J 70s, M24s, and Vipers are large enough that they have the own starts in the bay area.  I'm trying to help out the orphans.

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On Lake Champlain, we make a point of having our PHRF organization only rate boats, and nothing else. We have another organization to manage a lake-wide series and set class splits. Each club runs their own weekday series, and coordinate to slice up the weekends.

It seems like what has happened in Northern California (and many other areas), is that one organization is rating boats and organizing events. A few people probably got worried about SF Bay conditions and set some "minimum requirements", which could keep a lot of boats out of short course PHRF racing.

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On Lake Champlain, we make a point of having our PHRF organization only rate boats, and nothing else. We have another organization to manage a lake-wide series and set class splits. Each club runs their own weekday series, and coordinate to slice up the weekends.

It seems like what has happened in Northern California (and many other areas), is that one organization is rating boats and organizing events. A few people probably got worried about SF Bay conditions and set some "minimum requirements", which now keep a lot of boats out of short course PHRF racing.

 

Nope, it’s the same here. NorCal PHRF rates boats that meet their definition. They don’t rate multis, sporties or dinghies. I sail dinghies and once was on the BAMA board. This is my 3rd? boat rated by PHRF of NorCal. OAs are everywhere, and many will run sportie races. 

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Sorry about that. Who defines the ballast requirements?

We updated our PHRF bylaws last year to only rate monohull keelboats. However, that includes sportboats, Etchells, etc.

Viper 640s, Etchells, J/70s, J/29s, J/92s, and J/88s are good challengers for each other on our weekend open-lake island/government mark courses.

I guess I think sportboats are monohull keelboats, and not dinghies or multihulls. Why cut them out from getting a PHRF rating? Let the race organizers decide who to invite.

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The local race organizers in SF can decide who can come and in some cases they will allow small sporties that can't get official local phrf certs.  But it does limit what races you can do.

In our case the NorCal phrf committee defined the requirements.  I think the main issue that came up locally years ago was having mixed fleets of small planing and large displacement boats with similar ratings which is somewhat complicated by the fact that it regularly blows 20+ knots 7-8 months of the year.  Even though there are plenty of smaller planing boats that qualify for a NorCal phrf I think they decided they had to draw the line somewhere and 400 lbs seemed to be what they decided.  I'm not arguing for or against the issue here, just putting out information as I understand it has evolved over the years.

When it blows heavy as often as it does around here boats that plane will have a decidedly greater advantage.  It seems fair to assume in more normal wind locations some days the planing boats will have an advantage and some days the displacement boats will and in the end it's a wash.  Personally I'm fortunate enough to have both a small sportboat and a larger displacement boat so at least from my perspective I can see the pros and cons of both sides.  As for my own personal take I'd rather do whatever we can to include the most boats but I can appreciate the complicated nature of the situation. A separate sportboat committee would certainly solve many problems but so far that just hasn't happened around here.  FWIW here are a couple links to some older articles regarding the local issues that were brought up a few years ago.

http://www.norcalsailing.com/entries/2011/04/24/yra-sportboats.html

http://www.norcalsailing.com/entries/2011/04/27/sportboat-followup.html

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A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away a multihull owner approached PHRF San Diego and asked for participation in the local PH fleet.

PHRF San Diego, realizing that they were the gateway to increased participation, responded that if the local multihull owners would

1) appoint a multihull representative to the local PHRF San Diego and PHRF SoCal boards through which all correspondence, complaints, reviews or adjustments would be made,

2) derive their own ratings on their own which they could support both generally and empirically and

3) agree and understand that they would only be allowed to race against other multihulls per class rules,

that PHRF San Diego would be happy to issue certificates and maintain the database of ratings and dimensions for the multihull fleet.

PHRF San Diego then brought the program before the wise, kind and intelligent board of PHRFSD SoCal who agreed with the program and even amended their class rules to include multihulls with the stipulation that multis could only race against other multis, period end of story.

In the end all of these components put together meant that the multihull owners would be

1) demonstrating a level of interest sufficient to persuade the local PH boards that there was not going to be any real additional work for the local PH boards to do other than maintaining the database and

2) precluded the possibility that anybody in the existing fleet would feel vexed by having to compete against a boat with vastly different performance characteristics.

Ultimately all of this led to slightly greater participation and slightly more revenue for the local boards.

The same program could be created for sport boats in Norcal for the same reasons, but, as Raz’r points out, the sport boat owners have to become involved first and take responsibility for their own ratings and participation. It really doesn’t work any other way.

 

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