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Larry's AC50 Circus

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26 minutes ago, mfluder said:

"Then he gets sold out by Ben & Ratcliffe. How would you feel being him (Mills)? If I would be him I certainly would want some revenge & payback" And there we go. The real reason this series has started, and the real reason Sir Keith and Ellison are backing this circus.

Ellison is a sore loser, and Mills wants revenge...is that really a good reason to compete with the AC, as well as potentially kill off existing circuits?

They might hate Ratcliffe but they love winning, and this time Ben has as good a shot then he ever will. Ratcliffe will go from most hated to a National Hero if he can win the Cup. Not everyone likes Dalton in NZ either, but we all love winning, and thats whats most important.

You cannot compare Dalts & Ratcliffe. Compared to that guy Dalts is Mr. Nice Guy.

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1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

The Venue isn't on the Thames. It said that the Venue Announcement will be somewhere near the Thames. I guess you can't read properly. The Venue to hold the Regatta will be in Portsmouth or nearby. I doubt that they can sail the F 50's in a river.

A launch event has been scheduled for a venue on the River Thames early next month.

My mistake - I thought they were just going to get on with it ( in their favoured New York wind-shadow style )

 

 

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Briefly touched on above,and a cornerstone of many discourses on here:

Won't fleet racing 5ish f50's at 40+kts on tiny tracks be....dangerous?

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20 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

You cannot compare Dalts & Ratcliffe. Compared to that guy Dalts is Mr. Nice Guy.

All I'm saying is, if he can help Ben bring the Cup to the UK, he will have achieved something no one else, including Sir Keith has been to achieve, and although you may not like the guy, he will deserve credit where it is due for doing just that. 

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15 hours ago, mfluder said:

In terms of sailors making a living, given the AC75 requires a design team as well as a large sailing team, possibly even 2 large sailing teams in ETNZ's case, so the AC would be a more viable option to provide a living - if you're good enough. Otherwise there is plenty of work available for professional sailors without a stupid AC50 series.

The current AC is not a viable option to provide a living even if you are the very best unless you are lucky enough to live in the right country. The residency rules made sure of that. Using Nathan Outteridge as an example, I would hope that nobody on here would suggest he isn't good enough. There is no chance of raising the money needed for a campaign here in Australia. Same with Tom Slingsby. They don't want to do what James Spitthill is doing, committing to living in a foreign country for the next 3 years and which would prevent them from trying for the olympics (unlike Burling and Tuke). 

As for your "plenty of work" for professional sailors, the existing foiling events don't pay anywhere near enough for the very top guys and do you really think somebody like Outteridge is interested in TP52's? The F50's are the single most exciting boats currently on the water and I can assure you that Outteridge and Slingsby are seriously excited about having the chance to sail them again. Do you think the GC 32's are any good? They are OK compared with other boats that are around but they could be so much better because cannot foil upwind unless conditions are perfect (very rare). The GC32's are old, first gen technology. Something needs to step into the foiling space

There is more than enough room in the calendar  for the F50's and anybody who thinks that the racing won't be spectacular is clueless. It's the gig everybody who cannot get an AC job, for whatever reason, wants. At the beginning of the year, before the protocol was announced, Nathan said that if he couldn't get a job in the AC he would give up everything else to be part of the F50 circuit and that is what he is doing. The F50 is taking priority over his olympic ambitions.

There is more than enough demand from sailors, owners and viewers for this series and that is why it is going to happen.

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10 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

The current AC is not a viable option to provide a living even if you are the very best unless you are lucky enough to live in the right country. The residency rules made sure of that. Using Nathan Outteridge as an example, I would hope that nobody on here would suggest he isn't good enough. There is no chance of raising the money needed for a campaign here in Australia. Same with Tom Slingsby. They don't want to do what James Spitthill is doing, committing to living in a foreign country for the next 3 years and which would prevent them from trying for the olympics (unlike Burling and Tuke). 

As for your "plenty of work" for professional sailors, the existing foiling events don't pay anywhere near enough for the very top guys and do you really think somebody like Outteridge is interested in TP52's? The F50's are the single most exciting boats currently on the water and I can assure you that Outteridge and Slingsby are seriously excited about having the chance to sail them again. Do you think the GC 32's are any good? They are OK compared with other boats that are around but they could be so much better because cannot foil upwind unless conditions are perfect (very rare). The GC32's are old, first gen technology. Something needs to step into the foiling space

There is more than enough room in the calendar  for the F50's and anybody who thinks that the racing won't be spectacular is clueless. It's the gig everybody who cannot get an AC job, for whatever reason, wants. At the beginning of the year, before the protocol was announced, Nathan said that if he couldn't get a job in the AC he would give up everything else to be part of the F50 circuit and that is what he is doing. The F50 is taking priority over his olympic ambitions.

There is more than enough demand from sailors, owners and viewers for this series and that is why it is going to happen.

What I don't get is you say this: "They don't want to do what James Spitthill is doing, committing to living in a foreign country for the next 3 years and which would prevent them from trying for the olympics (unlike Burling and Tuke)" 

Then you say this: "The F50 is taking priority over his olympic ambitions" So living in a foreign country affecting their Olympic ambitions is irrelevant, because his Olympic ambitions aren't the priority. What your long-winded reply is pretty much - Either they don't want to do the AC, or they weren't offered a position with an AC team, OR they are bound by previous contracts from joining an AC team. 

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25 minutes ago, mfluder said:

What I don't get is you say this: "They don't want to do what James Spitthill is doing, committing to living in a foreign country for the next 3 years and which would prevent them from trying for the olympics (unlike Burling and Tuke)" 

Then you say this: "The F50 is taking priority over his olympic ambitions" So living in a foreign country affecting their Olympic ambitions is irrelevant, because his Olympic ambitions aren't the priority.

You always try to twist things. Last time around the AC was Nathan's priority and he still got a silver at the olympics, even though he only trained for a fraction of the time that Burling and Tuke did. The difference is that this time around, unless there is an Australian challenge, Nathan couldn't do both because it would screw with his residency requirements. Burling and Tuke don't have that issue, meaning they can do both. what do you think their priority is? AC or Olympics? I bet you it's the AC.

My point is that  with the F50, Nathan can do both even if the F50's are his priority. He can't with the AC.

Quote

Either they don't want to do the AC, or they weren't offered a position with an AC team, OR they are bound by previous contracts from joining an AC team. 

Why do you write such a short list of options when there are so many more? Both wanted to do the AC. They are not under any contractual obligations that prevent them joining other teams. The issue for them is purely around the nationality clause and what that would mean to them. In Nathan's case it would prevent him from doing the olympics, being with his wife when their first child is born and living where he chooses to raise his children. All of that was possible without the nationality rule.

Yet again, you have managed to get the conversation well off target. You clearly stated

Quote

so the AC would be a more viable option to provide a living - if you're good enough.

That is plainly wrong. There are a significant number of people who are good enough who cannot or will not get a ride this time around, due to the nationality rules and the huge increase in required budget.

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34 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

You always try to twist things. Last time around the AC was Nathan's priority and he still got a silver at the olympics, even though he only trained for a fraction of the time that Burling and Tuke did. The difference is that this time around, unless there is an Australian challenge, Nathan couldn't do both because it would screw with his residency requirements. Burling and Tuke don't have that issue, meaning they can do both. what do you think their priority is? AC or Olympics? I bet you it's the AC.

My point is that  with the F50, Nathan can do both even if the F50's are his priority. He can't with the AC.

Why do you write such a short list of options when there are so many more? Both wanted to do the AC. They are not under any contractual obligations that prevent them joining other teams. The issue for them is purely around the nationality clause and what that would mean to them. In Nathan's case it would prevent him from doing the olympics, being with his wife when their first child is born and living where he chooses to raise his children. All of that was possible without the nationality rule.

Yet again, you have managed to get the conversation well off target. You clearly stated

That is plainly wrong. There are a significant number of people who are good enough who cannot or will not get a ride this time around, due to the nationality rules and the huge increase in required budget.

I don't care about what Nathan is doing with his life, I really don't. It is you who keeps using him as an example as to why this series should exist. What I'm saying to you is if these guys wanted to do the AC, if it was their priority, if it was their goal, like it is for Ben, like it is for Terry Hutchinson, like it is for Dean Barker, like it is for Grant Dalton, Glenn Ashby, then there is NO REASON why they can not do it. No reason what so ever, including the Nationality rule. 

You bring up the issue of the Nationality rules preventing them from being able to do the Olympics, but it does not prevent guys from doing Olympics and the AC. The Residency rule states 380 days from September 1st 2018 to September 1st 2020. There is 720 days between those 2 dates. If they choose not to for family reasons, kids etc thats fine, but that has nothing to do with the Nationality Rule, so don't use guilt arguments as a means of proving your point. 

There is also plenty of guys who are good enough who will get a ride this time around, more than will get a ride on the AC50, so if anything the AC provides more jobs for sailors than the AC50 series does/ will. The Nationality rules don't prevent sailors doing the AC, they don't provide less jobs for sailors, they just mean sailors can't have their cake and eat it too. They have to make a choice, challenge for a given nation, either hold a passport or reside in that country for a period of 380 days. Its fairly simple and fair really. 

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3 hours ago, mfluder said:

Then he gets sold out by Ben & Ratcliffe. How would you feel being him (Mills)? If I would be him I certainly would want some revenge & payback" And there we go. The real reason this series has started, and the real reason Sir Keith and Ellison are backing this circus.

 

You can write half the posts yourself, it won't make you right.

This kind of event are planned well in advance and whatever the AC result is: Oracle wins, any of all other teams wins, even if TNZ won, it would happen.

Now, keep writing pages of conspiracy theory, it won't change the reason.

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1 minute ago, Tornado-Cat said:

You can write half the posts yourself, it won't make you right.

This kind of event are planned well in advance and whatever the AC result is: Oracle wins, any of all other teams wins, even if TNZ won, it would happen.

Now, keep writing pages of conspiracy theory, it won't change the reason.

But I didn't write it. Someone else did. I just highlighted it. If it was planned well in advance, it was poorly planned. After all, one of the major points for those supporting it is "18 months in between is too long" Well guess what, its been 18 months and not one iota of accurate news about this series. No boats launched, no teams announced, no sponsors announced, no management announced, no nothing announced. ETNZ started from scratch in their defence and have still managed to release more accurate news than Larrys new series. Doesn't bode well.

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1 hour ago, mfluder said:

But I didn't write it. Someone else did. I just highlighted it. If it was planned well in advance, it was poorly planned. After all, one of the major points for those supporting it is "18 months in between is too long" Well guess what, its been 18 months and not one iota of accurate news about this series. No boats launched, no teams announced, no sponsors announced, no management announced, no nothing announced. ETNZ started from scratch in their defence and have still managed to release more accurate news than Larrys new series. Doesn't bode well.

Strange logic, I am not talking about what the other said, but your reasons to explain an event that you say..... won't happen :blink:

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1 hour ago, mfluder said:

You bring up the issue of the Nationality rules preventing them from being able to do the Olympics, but it does not prevent guys from doing Olympics and the AC. The Residency rule states 380 days from September 1st 2018 to September 1st 2020.

You seem to know very little about things you state as fact. It is not possible to do both if you have to meet the residency rule, unless you happen to get a job with ETNZ. Do the maths. Add up the amount of time needed to be in your adopted country, the amount of time you will be sailing in NZ on the 75's and AC75 events that are likely to happen in the Northern hemisphere. Then look at the events you need to sail to prepare for the olympics and if you get selected, the time you need to spend in Japan training before hand. There is no way of fitting it all in. 

Again, you seem to deliberately avoid that you made a statement that is wrong. You said

Quote

so the AC would be a more viable option to provide a living - if you're good enough.

That was rubbish. For a lot of reasons, there will be some of the top sailors who will not be there this time around, and the 2 biggest reasons are the lack of teams and the nationality rule both of which are because of the protocol. I don't have an issue with the protocol itself, just people like you making stupid comments like the one above. For most teams, the biggest consideration as to who they have on their sailing team is where they were born, not how good they are. They only need to be the best available in their own country.

1 hour ago, mfluder said:

ETNZ started from scratch in their defence and have still managed to release more accurate news than Larrys new series. Doesn't bode well.

You seem to think that Larry has a need to announce the series early. They have all the competitors they need already lined up. They managed to get a world class sponsor without an announcement of anything. There is zero benefit to an early announcement and if there was a long gap between the announcement and the first event, that would be pretty negative. ETNZ needed to make announcements as early as they could in order to get entries. It looks likely that Larry managed to get more entries for his little series without making announcements that ETNZ has done by making the big announcements.

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3 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

You seem to know very little about things you state as fact. It is not possible to do both if you have to meet the residency rule, unless you happen to get a job with ETNZ. Do the maths. Add up the amount of time needed to be in your adopted country, the amount of time you will be sailing in NZ on the 75's and AC75 events that are likely to happen in the Northern hemisphere. Then look at the events you need to sail to prepare for the olympics and if you get selected, the time you need to spend in Japan training before hand. There is no way of fitting it all in. 

I don't think that is right .. Nic Willis is resident in the USA but still represents New Zealand in the Olympic games as a 5,000 metre runner.

The Olympics seem to be more relaxed about where the competitors reside as long as their nationality is correct.

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3 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

You seem to know very little about things you state as fact. It is not possible to do both if you have to meet the residency rule, unless you happen to get a job with ETNZ. Do the maths. Add up the amount of time needed to be in your adopted country, the amount of time you will be sailing in NZ on the 75's and AC75 events that are likely to happen in the Northern hemisphere. Then look at the events you need to sail to prepare for the olympics and if you get selected, the time you need to spend in Japan training before hand. There is no way of fitting it all in. 

Again, you seem to deliberately avoid that you made a statement that is wrong. You said

That was rubbish. For a lot of reasons, there will be some of the top sailors who will not be there this time around, and the 2 biggest reasons are the lack of teams and the nationality rule both of which are because of the protocol. I don't have an issue with the protocol itself, just people like you making stupid comments like the one above. For most teams, the biggest consideration as to who they have on their sailing team is where they were born, not how good they are. They only need to be the best available in their own country.

You seem to think that Larry has a need to announce the series early. They have all the competitors they need already lined up. They managed to get a world class sponsor without an announcement of anything. There is zero benefit to an early announcement and if there was a long gap between the announcement and the first event, that would be pretty negative. ETNZ needed to make announcements as early as they could in order to get entries. It looks likely that Larry managed to get more entries for his little series without making announcements that ETNZ has done by making the big announcements.

At the end of the day, guys as talented as Outteridge can do both if thats really what they want to do. They just have to manage their time. They don't have to sail every regatta of the ACWS, its highly likely Pete and Blair wont sail every event as they will be concentrating on their Olympic campaign also. But if it makes you feel better to say "Its impossible to fit it all in because of the Nationality Rule" then each to their own. First Boat launched after 31st March 2019. 2nd half of 2019 there are just 2 World series events, Olympics competitors may consider missing those 2 events giving about 6 - 7 months of 2019, and 5-6 months at least of Olympics dedication in 2020 leading up to the Olympics which start in July 2020. The Christmas Cup isn't till December,  giving at least 3 months of training in the 75 before that event as well as serious racing in December, and the Challenger Series in January. 

By the way, you only have to hold citizenship to compete in the Olympics, not reside in the same country.

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8 hours ago, mfluder said:

They might hate Ratcliffe but they love winning, and this time Ben has as good a shot then he ever will. Ratcliffe will go from most hated to a National Hero if he can win the Cup. Not everyone likes Dalton in NZ either, but we all love winning, and thats whats most important.

Apparently in Kiwistan the public are interested in the AC. This may also be true in Italy. Nowhere else. Ratcliffe isn't most hated now, nor would he be a national hero, because few in the UK could care less about the AC,

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Just now, dogwatch said:

Apparently in Kiwistan the public are interested in the AC. This may also be true in Italy. Nowhere else. Ratcliffe isn't most hated now, nor would he be a national hero, because few in the UK could care less about the AC,

So why would they care about the F50's which isn't half as important as the AC?

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4 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

[Snip]

You seem to think that Larry has a need to announce the series early.

[Snip]

As an autocrat running the series like he runs his business, LE does whatever he wants to.

I think there is an even chance that he is obfuscating for a reason.

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10 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

There is more than enough demand from sailors, owners and viewers for this series and that is why it is going to happen.

Indeed it begins to look like it might start, but not for the reason stated ^ obviously

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11 hours ago, mfluder said:

What I don't get is you say this: "They don't want to do what James Spitthill is doing, committing to living in a foreign country for the next 3 years and which would prevent them from trying for the olympics (unlike Burling and Tuke)" 

Then you say this: "The F50 is taking priority over his olympic ambitions" So living in a foreign country affecting their Olympic ambitions is irrelevant, because his Olympic ambitions aren't the priority. What your long-winded reply is pretty much - Either they don't want to do the AC, or they weren't offered a position with an AC team, OR they are bound by previous contracts from joining an AC team. 

Well, I can understand what he is saying. Outteridge has already a Gold (2012) and Silver (2016) so there is nothing else to go for him.

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5 hours ago, barfy said:

As an autocrat running the series like he runs his business, LE does whatever he wants to.

I think there is an even chance that he is obfuscating for a reason.

fixed it for you ... ;)

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15 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

The current AC is not a viable option to provide a living even if you are the very best unless you are lucky enough to live in the right country. The residency rules made sure of that. Using Nathan Outteridge as an example, I would hope that nobody on here would suggest he isn't good enough. There is no chance of raising the money needed for a campaign here in Australia. Same with Tom Slingsby. They don't want to do what James Spitthill is doing, committing to living in a foreign country for the next 3 years and which would prevent them from trying for the olympics (unlike Burling and Tuke). 

As for your "plenty of work" for professional sailors, the existing foiling events don't pay anywhere near enough for the very top guys and do you really think somebody like Outteridge is interested in TP52's? The F50's are the single most exciting boats currently on the water and I can assure you that Outteridge and Slingsby are seriously excited about having the chance to sail them again. Do you think the GC 32's are any good? They are OK compared with other boats that are around but they could be so much better because cannot foil upwind unless conditions are perfect (very rare). The GC32's are old, first gen technology. Something needs to step into the foiling space

There is more than enough room in the calendar  for the F50's and anybody who thinks that the racing won't be spectacular is clueless. It's the gig everybody who cannot get an AC job, for whatever reason, wants. At the beginning of the year, before the protocol was announced, Nathan said that if he couldn't get a job in the AC he would give up everything else to be part of the F50 circuit and that is what he is doing. The F50 is taking priority over his olympic ambitions.

There is more than enough demand from sailors, owners and viewers for this series and that is why it is going to happen.

??? Shall we really be worried whether any of these sailors have fun doing what they do for a living? Whether NA is not interested in the TP52s or the GC32s? Is anyone interested whether I like my job, or I'd rather be a movie star? C'mon, this is a very ridiculous argument. NA and all the others are lucky that they can get a job in athletic sailing at all. After all, it's a pretty useless profession, it doesn't save lives, it doesn't produce anything of worth, it's just entertainment. I bet, NA would prefer a well-paid gig on a TP52 to a minimum wage job at McD.

That doesn't mean that the F50 or whatever they are called won't provide additional well-paid jobs or even additional entertainment.

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18 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

You cannot compare Dalts & Ratcliffe. Compared to that guy Dalts is Mr. Nice Guy.

I like Ratcliffe. Sorry I cant help but admire the guy.

But he is not on the F50 circuit so the rest of you dont have to like him.

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