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Larry's AC50 Circus

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8 hours ago, mfluder said:

"Unfair advantage".

Yep, mtroller, unfair in 1992, unfair design advantage, unfair protocol, you make Ernesto and Larry great again. :D

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3 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Yep, mtroller, unfair in 1992, unfair design advantage, unfair protocol, you make Ernesto and Larry great again. :D

Cry me a river trollnado-pussy

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6 hours ago, P Flados said:

Oh how kiwivision does like to spin facts. 

It becomes pretty obvious to most SAAC viewers that all statements of ETNZ worship from someone prone to making statements like the above has zilch credibility. 

Just show me some proof that the OR "speed improvement" had anything to do with watching the Emirites team.

A number of items exist where you can trade off ease of use or stability for speed potential.  Potentially fast but hard to control can win or it can loose depending on the crew learning and ability.  Some choices probably helped with OR speed potential at the cost of making the OR boat a bit more "tricky" to figure out how to get maximum performance.

All indications are that OR did not figure out what I will call "wing trim" or upwind foiling until midway through the final. 

They wanted to shift center of effort further back from early on, but had to push past predetermined "load limits" to do so.  Once they figured out it was "do it or loose" time for wing trim, they said ignore the alarms and go for it. 

At very close to the same time they figured out the "beast mode" for foil control that made them faster for straight line sailing upwind. 

Yes their tacks looked better after they got better at the "tricks" to making their boat go faster.  No surprise here.  There was no need to look at the team with the different boat to figure out how to sail their own boat better.   

"Just show me some proof that the OR "speed improvement" had anything to do with watching the Emirites team" Roll tacks, and there's plenty of proof on you tube, just let your fingers do the walking, and the proof is at your fingertips. 

You can attack me all you like, but you still havent disproven anything Ive said, because you can't. Those "tricks" guess who they learned them from, the Kiwis, thats who. 

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13 minutes ago, mfluder said:

"Just show me some proof that the OR "speed improvement" had anything to do with watching the Emirites team" Roll tacks, and there's plenty of proof on you tube, just let your fingers do the walking, and the proof is at your fingertips. 

You can attack me all you like, but you still havent disproven anything Ive said, because you can't. Those "tricks" guess who they learned them from, the Kiwis, thats who. 

So you of all people are saying that they learned something from the Kiwis and then did it better than the kiwis could ever do ? 

If what they learned was such a speed advantage why wasn’t it the same for the guys they supposedly learned it from ? 

 

 

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7 hours ago, P Flados said:

Oh how kiwivision does like to spin facts. 

It becomes pretty obvious to most SAAC viewers that all statements of ETNZ worship from someone prone to making statements like the above has zilch credibility. 

Just show me some proof that the OR "speed improvement" had anything to do with watching the Emirites team.

A number of items exist where you can trade off ease of use or stability for speed potential.  Potentially fast but hard to control can win or it can loose depending on the crew learning and ability.  Some choices probably helped with OR speed potential at the cost of making the OR boat a bit more "tricky" to figure out how to get maximum performance.

All indications are that OR did not figure out what I will call "wing trim" or upwind foiling until midway through the final. 

They wanted to shift center of effort further back from early on, but had to push past predetermined "load limits" to do so.  Once they figured out it was "do it or loose" time for wing trim, they said ignore the alarms and go for it. 

At very close to the same time they figured out the "beast mode" for foil control that made them faster for straight line sailing upwind. 

Yes their tacks looked better after they got better at the "tricks" to making their boat go faster.  No surprise here.  There was no need to look at the team with the different boat to figure out how to sail their own boat better.   

Not wanting to flog a dead horse, but you brought it up.

Do tell me where all the energy was going from beastly mode, how Jimmy was flicking the bicycle gear changer control that was supposedly the game changer and installed on the same grip Jimmy was casually not holding whilst the foil was moving at more than one movement a second.

Do tell ....last I heard beasty mode was Kyle trimming the main, again easily shown not true, now it's the foil.

Wtf

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FFS, to all concerned,  please take this to a "I want to endlessly revisit AC34" thread.

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On 11/4/2018 at 8:53 PM, mfluder said:

And you're a loser.

oohh... you got me. at least i'm not the one getting shredded daily , posing as the site punching bag .

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On 11/7/2018 at 12:17 PM, P Flados said:

At very close to the same time they figured out the "beast mode" for foil control that made them faster for straight line sailing upwind. 

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4 hours ago, bigrpowr said:

oohh... you got me. at least i'm not the one getting shredded daily , posing as the site punching bag .

haha "getting shredded" haha the "Site punching bag" haha just makes you look like a fool, because you feel you need everyone elses approval to make you feel like you're worthwhile lol. I don't really care if you want to call me silly little names online, because thats what school kids do. You know the saying Sticks and stones...I don't really give a shit about your silly little insults. When you can come back to me with some real information, and not just the made up BS you've been spouting until now, and actually provide some credible information disproving anything I've said, let me know, until then, I'll enjoy the fact that all your talk is just pure sour grapes, because you backed the wrong team, and they lost, so you can go ahead and cry me a river, now run along back to your little group of internet friends and ask them to make you feel better, and I'll enjoy the best Americas Cup event since the last time Auckland hosted, and look forward to a successful defense of the Americas Cup.

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On 11/7/2018 at 7:25 PM, mfluder said:

"Just show me some proof that the OR "speed improvement" had anything to do with watching the Emirites team" Roll tacks, and there's plenty of proof on you tube, just let your fingers do the walking, and the proof is at your fingertips. 

You can attack me all you like, but you still havent disproven anything Ive said, because you can't. Those "tricks" guess who they learned them from, the Kiwis, thats who. 

You said the F50-GP50 wouldn’t happen. 

Guess that’s one thing.

im almost certain oracle learnt a lot from NZ in both of the last 2 cups. All teams learn from all teams. No different to any sport. We all learnt from different teams last time. 

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1 hour ago, surfsailor said:

The boats are looking pretty vicious - thinking they're dead serious about cracking 50 kts on a regular basis. Looks like a few 'oh shit' moments as well:

https://www.catsailingnews.com/2018/11/sail-gp-usa-team-f50-training-in-new.html

SailGP Facebook page has more images plus states United States Team and China Team finished their practice sessions, but no release as to who is on China Team.

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As we get into show time with these boats this thread really needs to go some where else as the event itself once realized has sweet fuck all to do with the AC.

Not knocking it, just saying it's time to cut the cord.

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2 hours ago, barfy said:

As we get into show time with these boats this thread really needs to go some where else as the event itself once realized has sweet fuck all to do with the AC.

Not knocking it, just saying it's time to cut the cord.

Surely its simpler to change the name of the forum?

Its not like the GP F50 series is relevant to dinghy, sportboat, ocean racing or general sailing anarchy.  Maybe multihull?   But its really the whole full-on professional nature of the series that excites us.

Perhaps change the forum title to "AC and GP Anarchy"?

Volvo Ocean Race and Vendee seem to co-exist happily on the OR forum.

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It's gonna really deserve its own , whatever you call anarchy level, directory. Gp 50 anarchy.

It's gonna need topics for every team, venues, boat dev.

Build it and he will come.

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11 hours ago, agk470 said:

You said the F50-GP50 wouldn’t happen. 

Guess that’s one thing.

im almost certain oracle learnt a lot from NZ in both of the last 2 cups. All teams learn from all teams. No different to any sport. We all learnt from different teams last time. 

I did say the series wouldn't happen, but really, there were so many people claiming to be "knowledgeable" and "in the know" that all got it wrong, so... 

They claimed Artemis Racing was in, they claimed Alinghi was in, they claimed Cammas was in, they even implied Burling and Tuke were in (probably just hoping because their ETNZ signing hadn't been confirmed). And none of those things happened.

I don't really care if it happens or not personally, the AC interests me, not some series brought about by a guy who has enough money to buy his own island, as well as countless superyachts, but still got embarrassed on the world stage by a team who had to invest in simulator technology (which the F50 series is now riding the coattails of) because they didn't have the money to build anything. Which, by the way, many on here, who all claimed to be knowledgeable at that time said would never be able to replicate the kind of training ETNZ needed in order to "catch up" to the Bermuda teams who were training against each other on the Great Sound at that time. Well, its pretty safe to say they were all wrong as well. So while I may have said it would never happen, those who claimed ETNZ had no chance got it wrong also.

The AC is still the pinnacle of the sport (Professionally) while the Olympics is the pinnacle event at an amateur level. The worlds best Amateur sailors compete at Olympic level, and the worlds best professional sailors compete at an AC level, that's just the way it is. 

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1 hour ago, mfluder said:

I did say the series wouldn't happen, but really, there were so many people claiming to be "knowledgeable" and "in the know" that all got it wrong, so... 

They claimed Artemis Racing was in, they claimed Alinghi was in, they claimed Cammas was in, they even implied Burling and Tuke were in (probably just hoping because their ETNZ signing hadn't been confirmed). And none of those things happened.

I don't really care if it happens or not personally, the AC interests me, not some series brought about by a guy who has enough money to buy his own island, as well as countless superyachts, but still got embarrassed on the world stage by a team who had to invest in simulator technology (which the F50 series is now riding the coattails of) because they didn't have the money to build anything. Which, by the way, many on here, who all claimed to be knowledgeable at that time said would never be able to replicate the kind of training ETNZ needed in order to "catch up" to the Bermuda teams who were training against each other on the Great Sound at that time. Well, its pretty safe to say they were all wrong as well. So while I may have said it would never happen, those who claimed ETNZ had no chance got it wrong also.

The AC is still the pinnacle of the sport (Professionally) while the Olympics is the pinnacle event at an amateur level. The worlds best Amateur sailors compete at Olympic level, and the worlds best professional sailors compete at an AC level, that's just the way it is. 

I am sorry, but I cannot hold Olympic sailing in the ranks of "World's Greatest Amateurs". They may be "the best" in the class boat chosen for the Olympics that year.

There are many different one design and development design boats being sailed around the world, and there are many outstanding sailors who compete in those classes who do not have the opportunity to sail in the Olympics, many can sail the shorts off of Olympic Champions.

Even the America's Cup cannot be deemed "World's Greatest" execpt in the class of boat used in that cycle, limited to the match race discipline. Even then, you would have to include designers and management, as all have to work together at the top of their game to win The Cup.

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46 minutes ago, Chainlocker said:

I am sorry, but I cannot hold Olympic sailing in the ranks of "World's Greatest Amateurs". They may be "the best" in the class boat chosen for the Olympics that year.

There are many different one design and development design boats being sailed around the world, and there are many outstanding sailors who compete in those classes who do not have the opportunity to sail in the Olympics, many can sail the shorts off of Olympic Champions.

Even the America's Cup cannot be deemed "World's Greatest" execpt in the class of boat used in that cycle, limited to the match race discipline. Even then, you would have to include designers and management, as all have to work together at the top of their game to win The Cup.

This is a rather silly argument, as you're saying an Olympic medal does not prove you're the best, because there's others out there, uncrowned champions, as it were that can claim to be better than some who achieve Olympic glory. That is frankly bollocks. The best are defined by their achievements in their sport, be it, Olympics, World Championships, Americas Cup etc, the pinnacle events where, to be the best, you have to beat the best.

What you're saying is, that means nothing, and as long as you think you're better than any Olympic gold medalist, thats all that matters.

If you aren't recognised in your sport for being the best, if you can't prove you're the best, you can't claim to be that. It's no use saying to an Olympic Gold medalist "I don't care about your Olympic medal, or your World Championships (or both, or multiple) or your Americas Cup win, I can sail the shorts off you so I'm better" You deserve to be laughed at.

The Americas Cup can be deemed to be the worlds greatest, because the worlds greatest are competing, or have competed. It is, and always will be, the pinnacle event of professional Sailing. Its funny how before 2017, the AC was exactly that. After 2017, it isn't, its just a competition in a defined class of boat haha

Burling, Tuke, Ainslie, Scott, Ashby, all Olympic and/ or World Champions. And yes, you do have to include designers, theirs is also an industry where the best compete against one another. 

 

 

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There was a time when amateurs competed in the Olympics .. Peter Mander won gold with the Sharpie class in the 1954 Melbourne Olympics as an amateur .. can you name anyone since?

They are all professionals either Olympic or America's Cup.

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2 hours ago, mfluder said:

This is a rather silly argument, as you're saying an Olympic medal does not prove you're the best, because there's others out there, uncrowned champions, as it were that can claim to be better than some who achieve Olympic glory. That is frankly bollocks. The best are defined by their achievements in their sport, be it, Olympics, World Championships, Americas Cup etc, the pinnacle events where, to be the best, you have to beat the best.

What you're saying is, that means nothing, and as long as you think you're better than any Olympic gold medalist, thats all that matters.

If you aren't recognised in your sport for being the best, if you can't prove you're the best, you can't claim to be that. It's no use saying to an Olympic Gold medalist "I don't care about your Olympic medal, or your World Championships (or both, or multiple) or your Americas Cup win, I can sail the shorts off you so I'm better" You deserve to be laughed at.

The Americas Cup can be deemed to be the worlds greatest, because the worlds greatest are competing, or have competed. It is, and always will be, the pinnacle event of professional Sailing. Its funny how before 2017, the AC was exactly that. After 2017, it isn't, its just a competition in a defined class of boat haha

Burling, Tuke, Ainslie, Scott, Ashby, all Olympic and/ or World Champions. And yes, you do have to include designers, theirs is also an industry where the best compete against one another. 

 

 

An Olympic Gold Metal is the top of the Laser, 470, Nacra and 49er class boats (men's and women's divisions) along with the boards and kites.

The fact that many do not sail in these classes does not religate them to some second tier designation.

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37 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

@Tornado-Cat do you honestly think this should have a thread in the multi hull Anarchy?

I think it is big enough to have a complete forum, something like SailGP forum, however it does share a lot with the AC so I have no problem having it here:


- same AC boat (before)

- same sailors (now or before)

- same sponsors

- same billionnaires

- same big budgets (smaller for one)

- same designers

- same speed

- same amazing show for the public

Obviously some are going to point the differences, or the common points, but it's in the same league and will benefit to sailing and sailors at the end.

For me the main interest is the compare the 3 best present foiling designs, AC75, AC50 and Maxis, which is why I opened the thread.

I wish to see them sailing together in different conditions and compare the designs.

So the answer is yes.

 

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1 hour ago, Chainlocker said:

An Olympic Gold Metal is the top of the Laser, 470, Nacra and 49er class boats (men's and women's divisions) along with the boards and kites.

The fact that many do not sail in these classes does not religate them to some second tier designation.

But it also doesn't mean they can, or will "sail the shorts off an Olympic medalist" What I'm saying is those who have achieved Olympic success are recognized by their peers, world sailing and the sailing community as being "The best sailors in the world" for a reason, because they are just that. 

So what you're saying is, every single class in the world today should be seen as being on equal footing with Americas Cup and Olympic classes? Sorry mate, not gonna happen, and rightly so. Any sport should have its top tier Olympic and pro events, and rightly so.

Russell Coutts is widely recognized as one of, if not the best sailors in the world today, as is Ben Ainslie. Would they be able to beat Pete Burling and Blair Tuke in the 49er Class? I doubt it, but that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve the title of one of the best sailors in the world today, right? Well, its the same with guys like Burling, Tuke, Ainslie and Ashby. They are called the best because they are the best.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I think it is big enough to have a complete forum, something like SailGP forum, however it does share a lot with the AC so I have no problem having it here:


- same AC boat (before)

- same sailors (now or before)

- same sponsors

- same billionnaires

- same big budgets (smaller for one)

- same designers

- same speed

- same amazing show for the public

Obviously some are going to point the differences, or the common points, but it's in the same league and will benefit to sailing and sailors at the end.

For me the main interest is the compare the 3 best present foiling designs, AC75, AC50 and Maxis, which is why I opened the thread.

I wish to see them sailing together in different conditions and compare the designs.

So the answer is yes.

 

But it hasn't had a successful event whereas AC has been going for over 160 years.

How can these two events be compared?

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5 hours ago, mfluder said:

But it also doesn't mean they can, or will "sail the shorts off an Olympic medalist" What I'm saying is those who have achieved Olympic success are recognized by their peers, world sailing and the sailing community as being "The best sailors in the world" for a reason, because they are just that. 

So what you're saying is, every single class in the world today should be seen as being on equal footing with Americas Cup and Olympic classes? Sorry mate, not gonna happen, and rightly so. Any sport should have its top tier Olympic and pro events, and rightly so.

Russell Coutts is widely recognized as one of, if not the best sailors in the world today, as is Ben Ainslie. Would they be able to beat Pete Burling and Blair Tuke in the 49er Class? I doubt it, but that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve the title of one of the best sailors in the world today, right? Well, its the same with guys like Burling, Tuke, Ainslie and Ashby. They are called the best because they are the best.

 

 

And they are, but the Finn is no longer an Olympic Class, just like the Star.

Many Olympic and World Champion Finn and Star sailors have been recognized as "the best", but these sailors will no longer be able to compete in the Olympics, there is no boat that is available to their body type to sail.

Like I said, the Olympics is simply the best of the "Olympic Classes" and that is it.

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1 hour ago, barfy said:

But it hasn't had a successful event whereas AC has been going for over 160 years.

How can these two events be compared?

Applying the same logic, a mono hasn't been a successful foiler yet whereas multis have been going since foiling exists.

Comparison of the two events will be most interesting.

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6 minutes ago, Chainlocker said:

And they are, but the Finn is no longer an Olympic Class, just like the Star.

Many Olympic and World Champion Finn and Star sailors have been recognized as "the best", but these sailors will no longer be able to compete in the Olympics, there is no boat that is available to their body type to sail.

Like I said, the Olympics is simply the best of the "Olympic Classes" and that is it.

And those other classes are just that, other classes with no real prestige to them. Therefor they can't claim anything either right? At least the Olympics is recognised as a premier event. Those other classes are all second tier events.

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7 hours ago, Chainlocker said:

An Olympic Gold Metal is the top of the Laser, 470, Nacra and 49er class boats (men's and women's divisions) along with the boards and kites.

The fact that many do not sail in these classes does not religate them to some second tier designation.

 

 

 

21 minutes ago, Chainlocker said:

And they are, but the Finn is no longer an Olympic Class, just like the Star.

Many Olympic and World Champion Finn and Star sailors have been recognized as "the best", but these sailors will no longer be able to compete in the Olympics, there is no boat that is available to their body type to sail.

Like I said, the Olympics is simply the best of the "Olympic Classes" and that is it.

Don't think you are right on this one. Sailing an Olympic class is a step up from other classes. You only have to look at how often Olympians go into other classes on a fairly one off basis and clean up. That's because it's so much easier. Take my class. At the upcoming worlds, there are probably only 5 or 6 people who are capable of winning a race, never mind the event. At the Olympics, most of the fleet is capable of winning a race.

In a non Olympic class, only about 10% are really good on the starts. In an Olympic class just about everybody is. In every aspect of the racing, this same principal arises.  Look at Stevie Brewin, who is one of the favorites to win the A's but who couldn't even get into the top 20 of the Nacra 17's. He's the second most successful A Class sailor ever, the only person to have always pushed Glenn Ashby over the last 20 years but it looks like he hasn't got that extra small percentage needed in Olympic classes.

The other really important factor is that you only have 1 chance every 4 years to win an Olympic gold. Think about that. In the time it takes to do 3 Olympic cycles, somebody with have 12 chances of winning a world titles in another class.

Other than winning the AC, there is little if anything harder in sailing than winning an Olympic gold (Vende Globe?). Olympic medalists are a step above the rest.

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On 11/7/2018 at 3:25 AM, mfluder said:

 

You can attack me all you like, but you still havent disproven anything Ive said, because you can't.

On 11/8/2018 at 2:17 AM, mfluder said:

haha "When you can come back to me .... and actually provide some credible information disproving anything I've said, let me know,

 

 

17 hours ago, mfluder said:

I did say the series wouldn't happen, but,.....

17 hours ago, mfluder said:

 The worlds best Amateur sailors compete at Olympic level, and the worlds best professional sailors compete at an AC level, that's just the way it is. 

 

Amateur sailors that compete at the Olympics include Ben Ainslie, Peter Burling, Blair Tuke, Nathan Outteridge, Tom Slingsby, Ian Percy

In contrast Professional Sailors that compete in the AC include........

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7 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

 

Amateur sailors that compete at the Olympics include Ben Ainslie, Peter Burling, Blair Tuke, Nathan Outteridge, Tom Slingsby, Ian Percy

In contrast Professional Sailors that compete in the AC include........

They're all professional sailors in the AC.

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7 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

 

Amateur sailors that compete at the Olympics include Ben Ainslie, Peter Burling, Blair Tuke, Nathan Outteridge, Tom Slingsby, Ian Percy

Can you please give us your definition of "amateur", because to me, if you are paid to sail, you are not an amateur and all of these guys are paid by their national association. They get interest free loans for their boats and their shipping costs paid. They don't pay for their sailing from their own funds.

 

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27 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

Can you please give us your definition of "amateur", because to me, if you are paid to sail, you are not an amateur

 

Ask Mfluder,  I am afraid I dont have a good answer to your question.

World Sailing would agree with you and defines all Olympians as Category 3 professional sailors. 

But according to mfluder

On 11/9/2018 at 2:00 PM, mfluder said:

 the Olympics is the pinnacle event at an amateur level. The worlds best Amateur sailors compete at Olympic level, and the worlds best professional sailors compete at an AC level, that's just the way it is. 

But before you challenge him, you need to remember that he is never wrong.

On 11/8/2018 at 2:17 AM, mfluder said:

 When you can provide some credible information disproving anything I've said, let me know,

 

On 11/7/2018 at 3:25 AM, mfluder said:

You can attack me all you like, but you still havent disproven anything Ive said, because you can't.

 

 

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58 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Ask Mfluder,  I am afraid I dont have a good answer to your question.

World Sailing would agree with you and defines all Olympians as Category 3 professional sailors. 

But according to mfluder

But before you challenge him, you need to remember that he is never wrong.

 

 

 

Blah blah blah, the topic wasn't whether or not Olympic athletes are Professional or not. So don't come at Me with your stupid little childish attacks. Stay on topic or shut the hell up.

The Topic is whether or not Olympic Classes are the "Top Classes" in Sailing. The discussion was No, they are not. The top classes in sailing are apparently the ones NOT involved in Olympics or the Americas Cup. The Answer was, No, just because you win an Olympic Gold Medal, or just because you've won the Americas Cup or What ever it may be, The Volvo, that doesn't make you "The best".

The best sailors are apparently the ones out there who have no Olympic medals or World Championships to their name, but can say "I can sail the shorts off any Olympic Gold Medalist" without having to prove it.

Thats apparently how Sailing works (to some people), medals, awards, world championships and accolades don't matter, all that matters is that you think, even if you're the only one who thinks it, that you are the best in the World, that makes you "The Best" Pretty silly huh?

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53 minutes ago, mfluder said:

 the topic wasn't whether or not Olympic athletes are Professional or not.

You forgot what you said  "The AC is still the pinnacle of the sport (Professionally) while the Olympics is the pinnacle event at an amateur level."

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22 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

You forgot what you said  "The AC is still the pinnacle of the sport (Professionally) while the Olympics is the pinnacle event at an amateur level."

No, I didn't, read again... The AC is the "Pinnacle of the sport (Professionally) while the Olympics is the pinnacle event at an amateur level. Interest free loans for boats, does not mean payment free loans, it means you still have to pay the loan back. Shipping costs may be paid for, but they still need to pay accommodation and personal costs. 

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/7339632/Making-money-from-sport

"The vast majority are actually amateurs, or semi-pro. They have day jobs. They study. They scrounge together cash from grants, charitable trusts and sponsorships"

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1 hour ago, mfluder said:

No, I didn't, read again... The AC is the "Pinnacle of the sport (Professionally) while the Olympics is the pinnacle event at an amateur level. Interest free loans for boats, does not mean payment free loans, it means you still have to pay the loan back. Shipping costs may be paid for, but they still need to pay accommodation and personal costs. 

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/7339632/Making-money-from-sport

"The vast majority are actually amateurs, or semi-pro. They have day jobs. They study. They scrounge together cash from grants, charitable trusts and sponsorships"

If we are talking about the pinnacle of a sport that does not include "The vast majority are actually amateurs".  Peter Mander won gold in the 1954 Olympics as an amateur and that's about it. 

All Olympic gold medal winners these days are full time professionals.

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13 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

If we are talking about the pinnacle of a sport that does not include "The vast majority are actually amateurs".  Peter Mander won gold in the 1954 Olympics as an amateur and that's about it. 

All Olympic gold medal winners these days are full time professionals.

My great uncle won a bronze medal in the single handed O-Jolle class in the 1936 Berlin Olympics (yes that one!). He had only stepped in the boat for the first time four or five months earlier.  The hosts had insisted that the Olympic Committee select a German design and we obtained a handful of boats in time for the trials at Burnham on Crouch.  He was in position for a silver medal going into the last race but he touched another boat and promptly withdrew because that is what one does. He ended up with the bronze medal and went back to painting, writing and sailing I14s.

He was an amateur.

Today, Olympic sailing is largely a professional sport and reaching the pinnacle of Olympic sailing is a professional endeavor requiring funding and full time dedication to the task at hand.

That doesnt make the present day Olympians endeavors or achievements any less awesome. We should all stand in admiration of Santiago Lange.

Mfluder seems to undermine his own arguments (as usual). With one breath he is claiming that the GP F50 series is irrelevant and not a top tier event. Then in the next post he is claiming that the world's best sailors compete in the Olympics and the AC.....while failing to observe that the F50 teams are laden with Olympians and AC sailors.  He doesnt have to watch the F50 series (it will be a blessed relief if he does not) but I will.

 

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4 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

Mfluder seems to undermine his own arguments (as usual). With one breath he is claiming that the GP F50 series is irrelevant and not a top tier event. Then in the next post he is claiming that the world's best sailors compete in the Olympics and the AC.....while failing to observe that the F50 teams are laden with Olympians and AC sailors.  He doesnt have to watch the F50 series (it will be a blessed relief if he does not) but I will.

 

In terms of the Americas Cup, it is irrelevant, right? I mean, so many people on here have said so many times, that it has nothing to do with the Americas Cup, so, logically that would not make it relevant to the Americas Cup. Yet they want it to remain within the Americas Cup discussion.

What makes SailGP a top tier event? It has no prestige, no history, and no tradition. It has not established itself, and has not proved itself to be sustainable past Larry Ellisons attention span. 

Does the fact that there is a smattering of (former) AC competitors involved, make it a top tier event? Then by that logic, the Extreme sailing series must also be a top tier event (something many on here have denied because the boats are antiquated, dated and apparently the organisation itself is run badly, even though it has established itself and proved itself sustainable without the express need for a billionaire backer to underwrite all aspects). To many on here, the Extreme Sailing Series is a second tier event using outdated, antiquated technology that has very little relevance to the Americas Cup, if any. Yet SailGP is immediately a top tier event before it has even held its first regatta, let alone established itself or proved itself sustainable. Can you see the double standard there?

 

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6 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Sweet

 

These are such amazing boats, and this series - with it's simulator, technology, and racing - is going to be an amazing incubator for top level cutting edge big boat foiling talent. If I were running American magic, I would do anything I could to facilitate running as much of my non AC34/35 sailing team as possible through this series to get them up to speed with the dynamics of sailing these types of boats in anger. 

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2 hours ago, mfluder said:

Blah, blah, blah, ... What makes SailGP a top tier event? Blah, blah, blah, ...

Do yourself a favor; just ignore it while the rest of us enjoy seriously six kick-ass F50’s raced by kick-ass sailors on six teams in a big number of kick-ass locales starting in Feb ‘19 ;)

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5 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Do yourself a favor; just ignore it while the rest of us enjoy seriously six kick-ass F50’s raced by kick-ass sailors on six teams in a big number of kick-ass locales starting in Feb ‘19 ;)

Haha sure, and when races get called off, and condensed into one day lotteries, and non-televised training days are used as points scoring race days where you have to pay for a shitty app that doesn't work properly, you can always come back to free to air REAL kick ass show where the worlds best teams competing on the worlds fastest and most revolutionary boats will compete for a trophy that actually means something.

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39 minutes ago, mfluder said:

Blah frkin blah blah.. You can always come back to free to air REAL kick ass show where the worlds best teams competing on the worlds fastest and most revolutionary boats will compete for a trophy that actually means something.

Yep, A36 could be fun too but it has some terrific eye-ball and interest competition for now, racing in some f’ing fast boats! 

All good. 

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1 hour ago, mfluder said:

Haha sure, and when races get called off, and condensed into one day lotteries, and non-televised training days are used as points scoring race days where you have to pay for a shitty app that doesn't work properly, you can always come back to free to air REAL kick ass show where the worlds best teams competing on the worlds fastest and most revolutionary boats will compete for a trophy that actually means something.

Well actually, I can watch both F50 and AC36 events online or however, some sooner than others.  It's not an either-or.   Whether I keep watching  F50  depends on how much of a pain it is. 

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I've still got a lot to learn about foils - but there seems to be a pretty beefy rooster-tail coming up from that dagger foil. I saw on the website that these boats represent a 15% increase in performance over the ACWS boats - as well as this...

Quote

The new foils are constructed with higher modulus carbon fiber and the geometry has been modified to promote more righting moment and increase the boat speed prior to the onset of cavitation.

But that thing sure looks draggy to me at speed. I don't remember that kind of turbulence with the 45s?

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On 11/10/2018 at 6:00 AM, mfluder said:

 

The AC is still the pinnacle of the sport (Professionally) while the Olympics is the pinnacle event at an amateur level. The worlds best Amateur sailors compete at Olympic level, and the worlds best professional sailors compete at an AC level, that's just the way it is. 

In what way are the top full-time pros who sail Olympic classes "amateurs"???  They still get paid. Okay, they don't get paid as well as the All Blacks do, but that's irrelevant.

Another way to look at it is that the AC attracts mainly top sailors from the small circle of countries that enter the AC, and the Olympics attracts the top sailors from far more countries. Where are the top sailors from the Netherlands (ahead of NZ in the medal tally at the last two Olympics) or Spain (2nd on the medal table in 2012), and the medallists from the smaller countries like Croatia? Where are sailors like Schiedt? They aren't in the AC.

 

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On 11/10/2018 at 7:43 AM, Chainlocker said:

there are many outstanding sailors who compete in those classes who do not have the opportunity to sail in the Olympics, many can sail the shorts off of Olympic Champions.

 

Who, and when? Even if the Olympians may have no more natural talent, they get a huge advantage from training and being coached intensively and on basically a full-time basis for many years.

Yes, if the Olympic champion is sailing for a little while in a class very different from the type they normally sail, they can be beaten by the champ of that class. But that doesn't mean the non-Olympian is a better sailor- it means they are reaping the advantage of being in their normal class and the Olympian is struggling with the disadvantage of sailing an unfamiliar boat.

 

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I've only briefly skimmed the previous couple of pages so apologies if this is repeating information already known about Larry's new show. Detail below comes directly from someone who has signed on to be sailing in a F50 team: 

  • All teams are fully funded by Larry
  • Each team gets some discretion as to how they spend their allocated budget (~$5m per annum per team) 
  • No external sponsors are permitted for individual teams in the first few years (to keep control of the vision and limit competing interests) 

 

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On 11/7/2018 at 2:30 PM, A Class Sailor said:

I can't be bothered to find the "proof", but Oracle made no secret that they did learn some things from watching how ETNZ sailed, particularly how to tack the boat. This was down to their coach Philippe Presti who did loads of video analysis of sailing technique. It made some difference, but other factors led to the biggest gains.

This is all ancient history, but having met one of Oracle's data wonks shortly after AC34 and discussed that campaign in some detail he mentioned a specific and continual effort being made right up to the last day to emulate and learn from every element of ETNZ's technique. Specifically that last lay day when they were 1 race from going down gave them the opportunity to uncover a breakthrough in camber being carried 'lower' in the wing which changed the game for them from there forward.

From memory of that conversation several years later Presti and the sailing team's ask of the data guys at that point was 'show us everything they do differently from us' and 'show us everywhere they are better than us in the data' and they ran a process of elimination to figure out where the repeatable gains could be (given that there was only time to change technique and not kit). 

 

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39 minutes ago, Curious said:

In what way are the top full-time pros who sail Olympic classes "amateurs"???  

Another way to look at it is that the top sailors from a small circle of countries sail at AC level, and the top sailors from far more countries sail at Olympic level. 

 

amateur

"a person who engages in a pursuit, especially a sport, on an unpaid basis."

You do realise most Olympians are not paid, I know many, and not a single one actually makes money, the Olympic cycle will end and they will have less money than they started with.

I don't just mean sailing, I mean literally all the Olympians from swimmers to track to rowing to sailing.

There are some garbage sailors out there competing at the Olympics when you compare them with HEAPS of recreational sailors who are also successful business people.

Oh and like multi time world/national champions in non-Olympic classes, which coincidentally are FAR better boats, FAR more fun boats to sail, Far nicer boats to own, FAR faster boats, and boats which actually have nice fleets in local or world stages outside of Olympic Events.

 

35 minutes ago, Curious said:

Who, and when? Even if the Olympians may have no more natural talent, they get a huge advantage from training and being coached intensively and on basically a full-time basis for many years.

Yes, if the Olympic champion is sailing for a little while in a class very different from the type they normally sail, they can be beaten by the champ of that class. But that doesn't mean the non-Olympian is a better sailor- it means they are reaping the advantage of being in their normal class and the Olympian is struggling with the disadvantage of sailing an unfamiliar boat.

 

You say that like non-Olympians don't sail extremely regularly. I have been out very "casually" lately and have sailed a MINIMUM of 3 times a week this season.

Not saying I'm better than any Olympic Champion though, just an example of how much some people sail, as there are folks I see out literally every time I am out, one for example has like 5 world titles to his name and would be a better sailor than any Olympian I have ever met.

Hell, I crewed for a bloke on his lightweight sharpie once, and this dude would easily smoke half the 420 fleet, and he was a self funded, nice AF dude sailing down at his local club.

How about people I don't know, I didn't know of Mishea Heemskerk sailing at any Olympics, but doesn't he have like A-class and F-18 world Champs on his belt?

But then fuck all this, what about the folks who are insanely good sailors, but aren't physically up to the challenge of the Olympics? Those guys who are paid serious $$$ on keelboats who whoop the pants off other professional PAID full time sailing teams consistently?

All this aside, the common theme is that Olympic boats are shit, and loads of great sailors CHOOSE not to sail them, and CHOOSE to make money instead.

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I also know quite a few Olympians, and they are paid to sail. Top tier athletes in 2015 got $35,000 pa from the ASC for training and living expenses. They don't make a fortune, you'll normally end up out of pocket and I wouldn't want my kids to do it, but there is money that goes from the government and sponsors to the sailor, for their sailing. That's being a pro under any definition I can find.

Yes, there are lots of talented sailors out there outside the Olympic classes. Personally, I respect the top sailors who also have a life outside sailing more than I respect a lot of Olympians. I actually respect Stalky more than Gashby in some ways for that reason. But practice makes perfect, and amateurs who sail a minimum of three times a week during the season are not normally sailing as much as Olympic aspirants who sail a minimum of five times a week for about 11 months of the year.  I can recall, for example, asking Dog how he and Cameron Miles went from losing Olympic selection in Solings to winning the Etchells worlds. His reply was simple and blunt - the Etchells had lots of top sailors but they were only doing it part time, so it was easy to win if you'd basically been full-time Olympic wannabees.

One of my arch rivals is a four time world champ an ex Olympic team member, the other won a worlds against an Olympic medallist. We all train a lot. But we aren't as good as if we were full time Olympic aspirants. My rivals have loads of talent, but they spend hours on the site or in the office. If they were spending those hours on the water instead like the Olympians do, they'd sail better.

By the way, I only sail one OIympic class and a bunch of popular classes, so I have no reason to be biased.

 

 

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3 hours ago, point said:

I've only briefly skimmed the previous couple of pages so apologies if this is repeating information already known about Larry's new show. Detail below comes directly from someone who has signed on to be sailing in a F50 team: 

  • All teams are fully funded by Larry
  • Each team gets some discretion as to how they spend their allocated budget (~$5m per annum per team) 
  • No external sponsors are permitted for individual teams in the first few years (to keep control of the vision and limit competing interests) 

 

giphy.gif?cid=3640f6095be92d976b6c496336

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On 11/10/2018 at 4:55 PM, mfluder said:

Blah blah blah, the topic wasn't whether or not Olympic athletes are Professional or not. So don't come at Me with your stupid little childish attacks. Stay on topic or shut the hell up.

The Topic is whether or not Olympic Classes are the "Top Classes" in Sailing. The discussion was No, they are not. The top classes in sailing are apparently the ones NOT involved in Olympics or the Americas Cup. The Answer was, No, just because you win an Olympic Gold Medal, or just because you've won the Americas Cup or What ever it may be, The Volvo, that doesn't make you "The best".

The best sailors are apparently the ones out there who have no Olympic medals or World Championships to their name, but can say "I can sail the shorts off any Olympic Gold Medalist" without having to prove it.

Thats apparently how Sailing works (to some people), medals, awards, world championships and accolades don't matter, all that matters is that you think, even if you're the only one who thinks it, that you are the best in the World, that makes you "The Best" Pretty silly huh?

While I do not know of any sailor boasting he can "sail the shorts off any Olympic Gold Metalist", I did say I knew a few in my lifetime.

What the hell makes a Laser or a 470 a prestige or top tier boat? Even in the Olympics; Star, Flying Dutchman and Finn were the "big events" for many years, now they have been dropped from the competition. Don't tell me the 49er is the "better boat", it is just different.

There are a lot of major International Class boats that have been sailed for years that have major prestige within the sport, with World Class sailors that do not spend time in Olympic Classes.

Yes, the people who compete on a top level in the Olympic Classes are good, and they should be with the support, coaching and time on water they receive. But there are sailors in other classes that are just as good. And the fact that they do not receive the special attention of the "Olympians" makes me respect them that much more.

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Chainlocker, you're making a lot of claims without giving any evidence for them. To give an opposing viewpoint, I'd never heard that the Star, FD and Finn were the 'big events'. Where I'm from, arguably the Finn was little thought of and the Star was seen as a largely American archaic oddity. Sure, in the USA and on the Continent the Star may have been a major class but in some other major sailing countries it's been small or basically non-existent and therefore not something that was likely to be thought "the big event". When I was a kid, the Soling was the most prominent Olympic keelboat where I lived. In France and Japan I seem to recall that the 470 was seen as the "the big event". The 49er is probably more of a "big event" in Australia than the FD ever was. 

So, which sailors can "sail the shorts off an Olympic gold medallist" in the Olympian's class? Which gold medallist is such an easy beat? Ainslie? Elvstrom? Tuke? Lange? Slingsby? Dual gold medallists Bank and Schumann?  

Apart from everything else, the Olympic classes are much more truly international than any other class bar the Youth classes. The 470s, for example, get entries from about twice as many nations as the 505s. There are brilliant sailors from small countries like Croatia, Cyprus and Israel who strengthen the competition in Olympic classes but who are not seen in other classes. It's pretty damning to ignore their contribution to lifting the standard and making the Olympic classes so demanding.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, mfluder said:

More Kiwi dominance.

https://www.sail-world.com/news/212080/Kiwi-crew-dominate-Red-Bull-Foiling-for-second-win

McHardie and McKenzie win Red Bull Foiling Generation title

by Yachting New Zealand 12 Nov 13:28 NZDT12 November 2018

yysw229521.jpg

First this does not has its place here, you don't miss an occasion to troll the thread.

Second, if we follow your fallacious logic, does the fact the "Team France Jeune" is the 2018 world champion while Team Red Bull is only 7th show the french "predominance" and more of Kiwi weakness ?

https://www.extremesailingseries.com/fps/results

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6 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

First this does not has its place here, you don't miss an occasion to troll the thread.

Second, if we follow your fallacious logic, does the fact the "Team France Jeune" is the 2018 world champion while Team Red Bull is only 7th show the french "predominance" and Kiwi weakness ?

https://www.extremesailingseries.com/fps/results

Oh the Irony! How about we move this whole thread somewhere it belongs, because as many, including yourself have said "It has nothing to do with the Americas Cup"

Second, "The New Zealand crew dominated the three-day event, winning every race they sailed, and their speed edge was noticeable in the four-boat final sailed in 10-12 knot winds" 

Not, my words...if you have a problem with it, take it up with Yachting New Zealand, otherwise cry me a river.

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3 hours ago, mfluder said:

More Kiwi dominance.

https://www.sail-world.com/news/212080/Kiwi-crew-dominate-Red-Bull-Foiling-for-second-win

McHardie and McKenzie win Red Bull Foiling Generation title

by Yachting New Zealand 12 Nov 13:28 NZDT12 November 2018

yysw229521.jpg

IF you believe this has a place in AC Anarchy, make a case for it. As many others have for SailGP belonging in AC Anarchy. But for goodness sake at least start a new thread. 

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3 minutes ago, 2Newts said:

IF you believe this has a place in AC Anarchy, make a case for it. As many others have for SailGP belonging in AC Anarchy. But for goodness sake at least start a new thread. 

Its a New Zealand Team (Currently Americas Cup Defender) and Its foiling Cats, as is SailGP. So it has the same place as SailGP. Thats my case. Infact it probably has more of a place here than SailGP does.

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2 minutes ago, mfluder said:

Its a New Zealand Team (Currently Americas Cup Defender) and Its foiling Cats, as is SailGP. So it has the same place as SailGP. Thats my case. Infact it probably has more of a place here than SailGP does.

Then start a new thread. Or put it in Team ENTZ. 

You may well have a valid argument to make about having it in AC Anarchy - I'm not opining on that - but I doubt you will prevail in a debate to have it in the SailGP thread. 

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21 minutes ago, 2Newts said:

Then start a new thread. Or put it in Team ENTZ. 

You may well have a valid argument to make about having it in AC Anarchy - I'm not opining on that - but I doubt you will prevail in a debate to have it in the SailGP thread. 

Why? Make your case for starting a new thread.

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11 minutes ago, mfluder said:

Why? Make your case for starting a new thread.

Simple. This is a thread about SailGP. You posted results from Red Bull Foiling. 

But you knew that case. 

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It escapes me what the case is for putting apparently random foiling stuff in the SailGP thread.  Hey, what about those foiling trimarans in Route du Rhum this year?!  Hey, a French guy won and his Ultime wasn't a foiler!  The foil busted on the one coming in a few minutes later. Uh, time for ocean racing forum?  

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2 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

It escapes me what the case is for putting apparently random foiling stuff in the SailGP thread.  Hey, what about those foiling trimarans in Route du Rhum this year?!  Hey, a French guy won and his Ultime wasn't a foiler!  The foil busted on the one coming in a few minutes later. Uh, time for ocean racing forum?  

Yep, and those foiling trimarans have their own thread, in their own forum, Which is exactly what I'm sayingso you just proved my point. Thank you. 

Ocean Racing Forum in the Route de Rhum thread. Imoca's have their own thread in the Ocean Racing Forum, Sydney Hobart has its own thread in the Ocean Racing Forum.

Sail GP should have its own thread in the Multihull Forum shouldn't it? 

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48 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

I wonder if these guys will get involved in SGP?

^^ Are you trolling like Mtroller too ? this belongs to TNZ, the place with "more kiwi dominance" :D

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11 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

^^ Are you trolling like Mtroller too ? this belongs to TNZ, the place with "more kiwi dominance" :D

These guys have nothing to do with ETNZ... They could be sailing for China... Does anyone know?

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2 hours ago, mfluder said:

Yep, and those foiling trimarans have their own thread, in their own forum, Which is exactly what I'm sayingso you just proved my point. Thank you. 

Ocean Racing Forum in the Route de Rhum thread. Imoca's have their own thread in the Ocean Racing Forum, Sydney Hobart has its own thread in the Ocean Racing Forum.

Sail GP should have its own thread in the Multihull Forum shouldn't it? 

If you take this elsewhere this forum/thread will boil down to a few posts a day at most and half of those will be about AC 34 :) its been  by far the most active thread here for months now , if it annoys you just ignore it and spend more time checking in with all those teams dieing  to get into the REAL AC , 

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3 hours ago, mfluder said:

Sail GP should have its own thread in the Multihull Forum shouldn't it? 

Start one then. 

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Team China has the only Chinese guys as grinders.  Seems ‘token’ to me and should be addressed.

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On 11/11/2018 at 2:21 PM, mfluder said:

 

What makes SailGP a top tier event?

 Can you see the double standard there?

 

Most can see the Sail GP as a potentially exciting event to watch. It is not going to have the same prestige as the Olympics (which you dismiss as an amateur event) or the America's cup. It is too early to tell if it will become a top tier event.  Nevertheless they are exciting state of the art One Design boats with some strong teams and a well funded organization, so it will be interesting to watch and entertaining to discuss on SA .

We know either you cannot acknowledge this or cannot see this and that is okay. Nobody is interested in changing your mind.

The double standard is that you deem the F50 series as irrelevant and doomed to turn into one day lotteries that nobody will watch.....and yet......you are the most profligate poster on the F50 thread.   So the answer is  yes, the rest of us can see the double standard.  Can you?

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And it's ironic that it may be the only competitive event where every team is bankrolled by the same invisible sponsor. 

Why isn't it called gp brought to you by Oracle?

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11 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

Most can see the Sail GP as a potentially exciting event to watch. It is not going to have the same prestige as the Olympics (which you dismiss as an amateur event) or the America's cup. It is too early to tell if it will become a top tier event.  Nevertheless they are exciting state of the art One Design boats with some strong teams and a well funded organization, so it will be interesting to watch and entertaining to discuss on SA .

We know either you cannot acknowledge this or cannot see this and that is okay. Nobody is interested in changing your mind.

The double standard is that you deem the F50 series as irrelevant and doomed to turn into one day lotteries that nobody will watch.....and yet......you are the most profligate poster on the F50 thread.   So the answer is  yes, the rest of us can see the double standard.  Can you?

Thats not a double standard my friend. The double standard is you wanna keep this here, in the AC forum, even though it is irrelevant to the AC, but then you dont want to talk about anything else, and you don't want anyone else talking about anything else other than SailGP. Thats the double standard.

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6 minutes ago, mfluder said:

Thats not a double standard my friend. The double standard is you wanna keep this here, in the AC forum, even though it is irrelevant to the AC, but then you dont want to talk about anything else, and you don't want anyone else talking about anything else other than SailGP. Thats the double standard.

 You are correct. I do prefer to keep this thread here, whether or not you deem it irrelevant to the AC.

 However you are incorrect, (1) There are plenty of other things to talk about  (2) You are not my friend ;)  or at least, not yet.

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17 minutes ago, barfy said:

And it's ironic that it may be the only competitive event where every team is bankrolled by the same invisible sponsor. 

Why isn't it called gp brought to you by Oracle?

Returning to serious discussion.  I think the Oracle name might be missing because Oracle might not be bankrolling it. I suspect this is Larry Ellison's own money.  Oracle is a public company owned by shareholders with a board of directors etc. who are accountable for the ROI on sponsorship deals.

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