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Larry's AC50 Circus

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Why is the boat blue? TS was expecting to be sailing his boat already in the green/gold livery.

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His posts has the boat built in a tent and the wing. Maybe still bolting her together? So looks like using Rome’s for the week. 

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1 hour ago, Mambo Kings said:

Why is the boat blue? TS was expecting to be sailing his boat already in the green/gold livery.

I think that is the generic test/training boat.

FYI the Sydney regatta reportedly will have a Shark Island viewing area and a big commercial spectator boat.  I suspect Taronga Zoo will have a good viewpoint, too. Plus they have cassowaries there.

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And just think, YPE held the outright world record for a boat at 46.52 kts from 1993 until the hydropter did 51.39 (17 years later) in 2009.

1993 Yellow Pages Simon McKeon AUS Sandy Point, AUS 46.52 kts
2009 Hydroptere Alain Thebault FRA Hyeres, FRA 51.36 kts

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Just now, Tornado-Cat said:

Just amazing, mainly whey we know that this power boats must be fit with up to 6 engines, first time I see that.

It's a common misconception but more engines doesn't necessarily make a power boat any faster...

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7 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

It's a common misconception but more engines doesn't necessarily make a power boat any faster...

Perhaps, but this isn't slow....

image.png.ebb29274f2e617d2c5e74b197c874088.png

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56 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Perhaps, but this isn't slow....

image.png.ebb29274f2e617d2c5e74b197c874088.png

Agreed. The 4 props are necessary for towing, tugging and righting.

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1 hour ago, Herfy said:

Wow, they are passing the power boats.

Plenty of power boats don't do 45 knots though, and the little boat it passed looked to be doing less than 30. Not sure the RiB was going flat out either.

Interesting that with the adjustable rudder elevators they don't do the bow down, arse up trim any more.

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23 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Plenty of power boats don't do 45 knots though, and the little boat it passed looked to be doing less than 30. Not sure the RiB was going flat out either.

Interesting that with the adjustable rudder elevators they don't do the bow down, arse up trim any more.

We all agreed that it looked cool tho

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9 minutes ago, barfy said:

We all agreed that it looked cool tho

Shit yeah, it's really humming along. Certainly doesn't look slow.

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Fast. Stable. Steady. Horizontal to the surface of the water. These things are going to be fun to watch.* 

I wonder if they wouldn't be super fun to watch in an oval course in addition to the w/l courses with narrow boundaries that I am sure they are planning. I suddenly had a vision of the Martinsville race track and how much fun it is to watch short-track car races. 

*(Except in NYC. That race will be kind of dumb).

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Race/Training(one-upmanship/Spite/Promotion)

Apples/Pears

 

Yeah, but upwind, down wind, VMG, max' speed on any heading, fastest around a course, come on - try to be more exact

'faster' :(

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13 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Plenty of power boats don't do 45 knots though, and the little boat it passed looked to be doing less than 30. Not sure the RiB was going flat out either.

Interesting that with the adjustable rudder elevators they don't do the bow down, arse up trim any more.

I had an old 17 foot Glastron with a basic 88hp Johnson outboard and it did over 45knots flat out....  

These boats will easily be faster than what we saw in Bermuda, and easier to sail.  Just the normal evolution without all the constrains from the AC rules.

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13 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Plenty of power boats don't do 45 knots though, and the little boat it passed looked to be doing less than 30. Not sure the RiB was going flat out either.

Interesting that with the adjustable rudder elevators they don't do the bow down, arse up trim any more.

They also do not have that rocking-horse motion that OTUSA especially had in Bermuda.  

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1 hour ago, NeedAClew said:

They also do not have that rocking-horse motion that OTUSA especially had in Bermuda.  

Let's see them in Bermuda-level wind speeds before we declare that rocking-horse done and gone. 

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7 hours ago, 2Newts said:

Let's see them in Bermuda-level wind speeds before we declare that rocking-horse done and gone. 

I think the separation of flight control from steering will resolve this issue. These boats are going to be smoking fast, significantly moreso than any of the boats in Bermuda because - in addition to all of the benefits of 20/20 hindsight with regards to Bermuda - they've also opened up the rule constraints on outboard cant, essentially building in more RM which directly translates to horsepower, and adding more control to rudders which can be used to level the boats at speed and significantly reduce platform drag.

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^ and the added cant will probably translate into better vmg on the track as well.

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On 11/14/2018 at 9:38 PM, rh2600 said:

Agreed. The 4 props are necessary for towing, tugging and righting.

According to this it will do 58 so it should be able to keep up if they want to...

 

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57 minutes ago, Airwick said:

According to this it will do 58 so it should be able to keep up if they want to...

 

Was that the boat there in Bream Bay was it?

Why would ETNZ be spending any time chasing an F50 at the moment?

Tall tales grow legs...

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SailGP Sydney

"We all know One Design racing is much more exciting for spectators"

 A quote in the article from Slingers. I wonder if he was referring to the AC35, for which the racing may have been boring for some of the spectators?

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"Commercially, we are starting on the right track, for without Larry we would be in a very different position, but we have great partners already, and there are big, global, powerhouse brands wanting to get involved. Some are even new to sailing, so we will talk about those in due course.""

Big great partners to make sailing great again without Larry. Pulease

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8 hours ago, rh2600 said:

Was that the boat there in Bream Bay was it?

Fair question, it's a bit hard to tell from the video but that's what the few pictures before were discussing...

If it wasn't that one it looks like something similar: a big RIB with a lot of horses and these should have more than enough power to do 50+ but in the end the top speed probably depends on the prop selection more than anything.

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45 minutes ago, Airwick said:

Fair question, it's a bit hard to tell from the video but that's what the few pictures before were discussing...

If it wasn't that one it looks like something similar: a big RIB with a lot of horses and these should have more than enough power to do 50+ but in the end the top speed probably depends on the prop selection more than anything.

No that wasn't what was being discussed at all... This is how bullshit starts... No one was suggesting ETNZ was there... 

Big fast boats go fast? Fancy that...

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3 hours ago, rh2600 said:

No that wasn't what was being discussed at all... This is how bullshit starts... No one was suggesting ETNZ was there... 

Big fast boats go fast? Fancy that...

It might be a thread drift but that's the discussion I was adding to, I didn't "Start" any bullshit. This is SA, BS just spontaneously happens (if we only we could harness this an energy source...)

The point was that whether it's that exact RIB, a sistership, or something similar, every team will make sure they have a chase boat that can easily do 50+ and the RIB only got passed because they weren't trying not to get passed!

Now if we are talking about some other random PB zooming around, then yes, they might not be able to keep up but then again you can always find a powerboat that will be slower than a given sailboat (even though in some case you might have to look hard).

On 11/14/2018 at 7:59 PM, Herfy said:

Wow, they are passing the power boats.

 

On 11/14/2018 at 8:32 PM, rh2600 said:
On 11/14/2018 at 8:30 PM, Tornado-Cat said:

Just amazing, mainly whey we know that this power boats must be fit with up to 6 engines, first time I see that.

It's a common misconception but more engines doesn't necessarily make a power boat any faster...

 

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1 minute ago, Airwick said:

It might be a thread drift but that's the discussion I was adding to, I didn't "Start" any bullshit. This is SA, BS just spontaneously happens (if we only we could harness this an energy source...)

The point was that whether it's that exact RIB, a sistership, or something similar, every team will make sure they have a chase boat that can easily do 50+ and the RIB only got passed because they weren't trying not to get passed!

Now if we are talking about some other random PB zooming around, then yes, they might not be able to keep up but then again you can always find a powerboat that will be slower than a given sailboat (even though in some case you might have to look hard).

 

 

There are quite a few boats around the gulf - there's no suggestion that ETNZ was in Bream Bay. The power boats in the video could have a top speed of between 35 - 55 knots depending on a range of things. The F50 is fast, how fast is not easily determined by that clip.

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On 11/15/2018 at 9:58 AM, 2Newts said:

*(Except in NYC. That race will be kind of dumb).

if they put the race up where the buildings are it will be dumb again, however if they stay below, say the statue of liberty, that is wide open to the prevailing breeze blowing from the west and that will be enough to keep things interesting.  They need to set it up the same way that the red bull air races were.  And not have it in the dead summer breeze.  Spring or fall please.

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36 minutes ago, Loose Cannon said:

if they put the race up where the buildings are it will be dumb again, however if they stay below, say the statue of liberty, that is wide open to the prevailing breeze blowing from the west and that will be enough to keep things interesting.  They need to set it up the same way that the red bull air races were.  And not have it in the dead summer breeze.  Spring or fall please.

Sadly, they are planning the exact opposite of what you propose: https://sailgp.com/races/new-york/ ... June 22, in the Hudson River from the Battery to Canal Street. 

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https://www.sailgp.com/news/Japan-launch

Nathan Outteridge, Iain Jensen and Luke Parkinson along with several Softbank Team Japan crew make up Japan SailGP.

This has without doubt got to be THE team to beat! Might as well be Artemis Racing.

 

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3 hours ago, Chainlocker said:

Might as well be Artemis Racing.

 

Minus the Team Manager, tactician and double Olympic Gold medallist.

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2 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Minus the Team Manager, tactician and double Olympic Gold medallist.

I wasn't trying to diminish Percy, I was referring only to the experience in the boat.

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6 hours ago, Chainlocker said:

https://www.sailgp.com/news/Japan-launch

Nathan Outteridge, Iain Jensen and Luke Parkinson along with several Softbank Team Japan crew make up Japan SailGP.

This has without doubt got to be THE team to beat! Might as well be Artemis Racing.

 

Huge amount of talent in this series. Australia vs Japan will be an interesting match up.

Its only a shame that Burling and Ainslie dont have a horse in this race.

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35 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

Huge amount of talent in this series. Australia vs Japan will be an interesting match up.

Its only a shame that Burling and Ainslie dont have a horse in this race.

If Ainslie wins the Cup, could he then outsource the competition to an outside authority such as SailGP to effectively "run" the series? Might not comply with the Deed. A good question for Tom E.

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Yes he could. That was pretty much the AC-Alphabet model of AC34. ACRM = SailGP, ACEA = Royal Yacht Squadron Racing Ltd,  in that analogy,

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8 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Yes he could. That was pretty much the AC-Alphabet model of AC34. ACRM = SailGP, ACEA = Royal Yacht Squadron Racing Ltd,  in that analogy,

No because the AC will always include an element of design competition.That is a good thing and makes the AC special and unique.

I thought it would be interesting to see Burling, Ainslie, Slingsby and Outteridge go up against each other in bleeding edge one design.  Guess it could still happen if F50 gets traction. 

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OK. I was just talking about the event and race management. Nor sure there is anything in the DoG that precludes a pure OD event but I can't imagine it going that way while the RYS has anything to do with it.

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True. But the competition is still moving in the direction of one design. Like it or not. The AC75 is still a good bit OD supplied parts is it not? Just as the AC50, with the hope of reducing costs and getting more teams involved. I know people like to see visual differences in the boats but the faster these things go and the more computers and algorithms get involved the design competition will be in non visually noticeable elements. 

The typical F1 race-day fan can't tell you the differences between the Ferrari and Mercedes cars besides the engines are different manufacturers. And F1 has not been great to watch the past 5 years since Lewis Hamilton and Merc are a cut above everyone else in the field. I am just now getting into Formula E, which uses a supplied chassis and battery (formerly supplied McLaren electrical power unit). Now they are using the a new supplied chassis and battery and engine manufacturers are now permitted to develop and use their own electrical motor. 

The sport needs to be a competition of who the best sailors are. Whether the F50 is the best platform to find out remains to be seen. 

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3 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

No because the AC will always include an element of design competition.That is a good thing and makes the AC special and unique.

I thought it would be interesting to see Burling, Ainslie, Slingsby and Outteridge go up against each other in bleeding edge one design.  Guess it could still happen if F50 gets traction. 

image.png.a855e8d0ca5b8f7c844b21e9a33daf17.png

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13 hours ago, Chainlocker said:

https://www.sailgp.com/news/Japan-launch

Nathan Outteridge, Iain Jensen and Luke Parkinson along with several Softbank Team Japan crew make up Japan SailGP.

This has without doubt got to be THE team to beat! Might as well be Artemis Racing.

 

Yes, i think this was the team Dylan was referring to as the Aussies when he said they're the ones to beat during the GB presentation. 

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13 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Yes, i think this was the team Dylan was referring to as the Aussies when he said they're the ones to beat during the GB presentation. 

So much for nationality! 

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2 hours ago, rh2600 said:

So much for nationality! 

They were honest about year one being pretty forgiving on Nationality. 

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4 minutes ago, Monkey said:

They were honest about year one being pretty forgiving on Nationality. 

True, but for me it's one thing to have foreigners onboard to give a minnow team a boost whilst they grow their roster, it's another thing to have that team dominate and possible win the cup due to being dominated by foreigners who also happen to be the best... if that would happen it would suggest to me that the balance isn't quite right for what is being widely promoted as nation vs nation.

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10 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

True, but for me it's one thing to have foreigners onboard to give a minnow team a boost whilst they grow their roster, it's another thing to have that team dominate and possible win the cup due to being dominated by foreigners who also happen to be the best... if that would happen it would suggest to me that the balance isn't quite right for what is being widely promoted as nation vs nation.

Growing pains. If they went full National on day one, it would be unwatchable. It’d be NZ, Aus, or France (yeah, I think they’d be in the mix with the boats being one design).  This gives it a chance to grow, and hopefully open the door to future AC teams from other countries. 

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17 hours ago, Chainlocker said:

https://www.sailgp.com/news/Japan-launch

Nathan Outteridge, Iain Jensen and Luke Parkinson along with several Softbank Team Japan crew make up Japan SailGP.

This has without doubt got to be THE team to beat! Might as well be Artemis Racing.

 

This means that the Columbus 2021 Team is probably DEAD now. I can't see Outterridge running an AC Team as well as Team Japan for SailGP simultanously.

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3 hours ago, rh2600 said:

So much for nationality! 

There is an exemption for Japan and China because they currently don't have the wealth of sailing talent as on now.  It changes in a few years.

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22 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

Speaking of AC sailors in foiling cats

 

Too bad there was never any trickle down of the designs from the last two AC's....

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1 hour ago, Monkey said:

Growing pains. If they went full National on day one, it would be unwatchable. It’d be NZ, Aus, or France (yeah, I think they’d be in the mix with the boats being one design).  This gives it a chance to grow, and hopefully open the door to future AC teams from other countries. 

The way I see it, AUS has 2 chances to win (in the eyes of the sailing world).

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interesting to see that iain jensen and luke parkinson are both with IENOS and team japan

i was under the impression that their wouldn't be any of that

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2 hours ago, mfluder said:

 

That was bush league.  Remember that it is not called the Team Emirates New Zealand Cup!

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5 minutes ago, Herfy said:

That was bush league.  Remember that it is not called the Team Emirates New Zealand Cup!

No, its not, but it doesn't matter what its called, the only thing that matters is who holds it. And it aint America! 

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1 hour ago, Herfy said:

That was bush league.  Remember that it is not called the Team Emirates New Zealand Cup!

It's not called the USA cup either! Technically it was named after a boat... Not a country...

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3 hours ago, rh2600 said:

It's not called the USA cup either! Technically it was named after a boat... Not a country...

I did not know there was a country called America. Where is it?

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13 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

This means that the Columbus 2021 Team is probably DEAD now. I can't see Outterridge running an AC Team as well as Team Japan for SailGP simultanously.

Columbus 2021 and all the other rumored un-declared teams are ALL dead now. Anyone who enters at this point -- when Ben has his wasp, NYYC have their mule, and ENTZ has their simulator (we assume) -- is just throwing good money after bad. 

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4 hours ago, inebriated said:

i don't blame japan, just choosing the best people for the job

 

True, but by the timeframe for Japan, and China to transition from the minimum number according to the Nationality rule, to 100% Nationals is around 2 years. Coincidentally, by the time that timeframe comes around, the AC will be in full swing.

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So is Ineos Team UK getting any USEFUL extra racing practice with Jensen as wing trimmer on the Japan team F50 and (still?) main trimmer on the UK team AC75?

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With drones.  Lots and lots of camera drones. Airspace control to keep out independent or fan drone coverage. Drone dogfights.  Collisions.  Heck, skip the boats and have a drone airshow if the wind is too light.

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The only thing you guys should be concerned with is how to pronounce Outteridge.  Outer-ridge or Otter-ridge, eh?  I'll leave y'all with that.

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3 minutes ago, Teaky said:

The only thing you guys should be concerned with is how to pronounce Outteridge.  Outer-ridge or Otter-ridge, eh?  I'll leave y'all with that.

Out- ridge

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16 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

I did not know there was a country called America. Where is it?

Definition of America

Also USA is an abbreviation for the United States of America.  The original winning boat was named after its home country.  

It was just a side comment to counteract all of the nose in the air, nationalist chest pumping that goes on in this form and was symbolized by that video.

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42 minutes ago, Herfy said:

Definition of America

Also USA is an abbreviation for the United States of America.  The original winning boat was named after its home country.  

It was just a side comment to counteract all of the nose in the air, nationalist chest pumping that goes on in this form and was symbolized by that video.

The boat was named after the Americas - the continents that house the United States, Canada, and all the South American countries too - which were named after an Italian explorer.

So it's a relatively abstract name for the cup - and it could have just as easily been named something totally random like "Aurora" or heaven forbid "Freak's Cup" -

has a different ring to it eh...

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20 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

The boat was named after the Americas - the continents that house the United States, Canada, and all the South American countries too - which were named after an Italian explorer.

So it's a relatively abstract name for the cup - and it could have just as easily been named something totally random like "Aurora" or heaven forbid "Freak's Cup" -

has a different ring to it eh...

you must be a very little man . try growth hormones.

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51 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

The boat was named after the Americas - the continents that house the United States, Canada, and all the South American countries too - which were named after an Italian explorer.

So it's a relatively abstract name for the cup - and it could have just as easily been named something totally random like "Aurora" or heaven forbid "Freak's Cup" -

has a different ring to it eh...

You are really trying to hard!  You are not the "orange pumpkin", you just can't make stuff up when you want to....   The boat was designed to show off U.S. (America) shipbuilding skill and make money through competing in yachting regattas.  As correctly stated, the cup was named after the yacht, but of course the yacht was named to represent the country.  You should at least give a little respect to the originator and holder of the cup for so long.

https://www.rys.org.uk/about/the-yacht-america/

https://nyyc.org/history-heritage/-/blogs/america-s-cup-history

https://nyyc.org/history-heritage/-/blogs/about-the-new-york-yacht-club

 

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1 hour ago, Herfy said:

You are really trying to hard!  You are not the "orange pumpkin", you just can't make stuff up when you want to....   The boat was designed to show off U.S. (America) shipbuilding skill and make money through competing in yachting regattas.  As correctly stated, the cup was named after the yacht, but of course the yacht was named to represent the country.  You should at least give a little respect to the originator and holder of the cup for so long.

https://www.rys.org.uk/about/the-yacht-america/

https://nyyc.org/history-heritage/-/blogs/america-s-cup-history

https://nyyc.org/history-heritage/-/blogs/about-the-new-york-yacht-club

 

"the cup was named after the yacht" Correct. Everyone knows that - but who really cares what the trophy is called anyway. Whats important is who holds that trophy.

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Funny, talked with a mate from Whangarei today. Has a 30 ft yacht, doesn't race, hadn't heard of mini frack or the mule. No idea about this forum. But has heard of the f50 circus in town. 

Asked me,"that's the races Larry started cause he was pissed off he lost the cup".

Priceless

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1 hour ago, Herfy said:

You are really trying to hard!  You are not the "orange pumpkin", you just can't make stuff up when you want to....   The boat was designed to show off U.S. (America) shipbuilding skill and make money through competing in yachting regattas.  As correctly stated, the cup was named after the yacht, but of course the yacht was named to represent the country.  You should at least give a little respect to the originator and holder of the cup for so long.

https://www.rys.org.uk/about/the-yacht-america/

https://nyyc.org/history-heritage/-/blogs/america-s-cup-history

https://nyyc.org/history-heritage/-/blogs/about-the-new-york-yacht-club

 

I know I know... It was worth a shot :-)

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2 hours ago, mfluder said:

"the cup was named after the yacht" Correct. Everyone knows that - but who really cares what the trophy is called anyway. Whats important is who holds that trophy.

If "America" did not win The Cup, and the NYYC had not defended that cup 24 times in 126 years without a loss, nobody would be contending for the America's Cup today.

That's what's important.

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from http://www.sportspromedia.com/interviews/sailgp-americas-cup-russell-coutts-interview

From a distribution standpoint, SailGP is focusing on delivering its programming to free-to-air operators and OTT platforms. Rights have been made available for the three-year cycle covering the period 2019 to 2021. Packages on offer will include a two-hour HD world feed produced on each day of racing, as well as a 52-minute daily highlights programme, with 23 live cameras, including drones, capturing the action.

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6 hours ago, Chainlocker said:

If "America" did not win The Cup, and the NYYC had not defended that cup 24 times in 126 years without a loss, nobody would be contending for the America's Cup today.

That's what's important.

The fact that America won it, is only part of the history. The reason it is still being contested is not because of that fact. It is because the trophy itself was donated to the NYYC under the terms of the Deed of Gift. Its this fact that made the Cup available for perpetual international competition.

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

from http://www.sportspromedia.com/interviews/sailgp-americas-cup-russell-coutts-interview

From a distribution standpoint, SailGP is focusing on delivering its programming to free-to-air operators and OTT platforms. Rights have been made available for the three-year cycle covering the period 2019 to 2021. Packages on offer will include a two-hour HD world feed produced on each day of racing, as well as a 52-minute daily highlights programme, with 23 live cameras, including drones, capturing the action.

Yeah. Per RC,  it is "a sports product, not sailing" for the way sports is "consumed" today.  Ok.  Maybe they can change US (or as some think of it, American) football, baseball, and basketball next, into 22 minute eye bites. International tennis is being worked on already via Kosmos/Davis Cup.  http://www.sportspromedia.com/quick_fire_questions/sailgp-americas-cup-russell-coutts-interview

Edit PS showed MrClew the article. He was intrigued.  Noted that baseball, etc have commercial breaks, quarters, etc. But then I reminded him it was 22 min (or a year) for the whole thing...he also says $1m is not enough to be exciting anymore, something he always says during each episode of Survivor 

Edited by NeedAClew

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3 hours ago, mfluder said:

The fact that America won it, is only part of the history. The reason it is still being contested is not because of that fact. It is because the trophy itself was donated to the NYYC under the terms of the Deed of Gift. Its this fact that made the Cup available for perpetual international competition.

 

3 hours ago, mfluder said:

The fact that America won it, is only part of the history. The reason it is still being contested is not because of that fact. It is because the trophy itself was donated to the NYYC under the terms of the Deed of Gift. Its this fact that made the Cup available for perpetual international competition.

You really don't get it. It was those string of victories that made The Cup what it is today. If not it would be just some trophy, sitting in some remote yacht club.

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52 minutes ago, Chainlocker said:

 

You really don't get it. It was those string of victories that made The Cup what it is today. If not it would be just some trophy, sitting in some remote yacht club.

No, its you who doesn't get it. Those victories don't make the Cup what it is today. Yes, as I said, they are a huge part of the history of the Cup, the tradition, the grandeur, that history will always be a part of the Americas Cup, but it is as much a part of the history as Australia's II's win in 1983, or Team NZ's win in 95, or Oracles win in 2010, and ETNZ's win in 2017. The AC has evolved into a completely new prospect, a completely new format of competition. And it will continue to evolve. The AC is no longer just the billionaires pissing contest it once was. It is a sporting contest. A design contest, A commercial, made for TV form of entertainment. The Audience who watches the AC, who follows and enjoys the AC is what makes it what it is today. Most of that audience wouldn't have a clue and couldn't care less about a Schooner called America that won a cup 167 years ago. Those are the fans that the AC is aimed at, those are the fans who make the AC what it is today. The history and tradition of the AC will always be a part, but it doesn't make the Cup what it is today. Its time to stop living in the past.

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Try to wrap your head around the very simple fact that NONE of that would have happened without the 24 wins.

It would have become just another yacht race.

It probably would not have even entered the J era if the US lost any of the early races.

 

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1 hour ago, Chainlocker said:

Try to wrap your head around the very simple fact that NONE of that would have happened without the 24 wins.

It would have become just another yacht race.

It probably would not have even entered the J era if the US lost any of the early races.

 

You can't say for certain what "Would've happened if this didn't happen" or what wouldn't have happened if this happened" For all you know, if America had not've won the first time, they may not have competed those other 23 times, and the Americas Cup might look completely different. Maybe the French would be holding it now and it'd be an offshore race in 90 foot Tri marans? You never know, if the Nazi's didn't double cross Stalin and invade Leningrad, the Red Army wouldn't have sacked Berlin, and the Germans may hold the Americas Cup, or the Japanese might be the greatest sailing nation on Earth right now, you don't know what might've happened any more than the next guy. The Americas Cup may have 20 Challengers by now, you don't know. 

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