Offshore 1

Larry's AC50 Circus

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

Stop being a moron. We have been talking about whether it is worth sailing a TP52 or not, or sailing an F50, or any other foiling cat. You have maintained sailing a TP52 is relevant. It is not. Why do you think that Ben ainslie dumped the TP52 sailing but jumped in the GC32? 

You are the one being a moron! Its no coincidence that the senior positions on all of the top 3 teams are filled with, and by Monohull specialists, with the exception of Glenn Ashby, but it has not yet been confirmed whether he will indeed skipper ETNZ again. Dean Barker, Terry Hutchinson, Pete Burling, Ben Ainslie (Yes he is a self confessed Monohull specialist) Jimmy Spithill, Francesco Bruni, through to guys like Taylor Canfield, all monohull specialists. There are no dedicated multihull specialists, the likes of Glenn Ashby who fill senior positions on any of the top 3 teams. Why? Because monohull sailing is relevant.

To answer your questions:

Because 1) It wasn't his team to start with, it was Tony Langley's Gladiator team. This meant he wouldn't have to dedicate budget (which at that time he didn't have because his "consortium" didn't provide him the budget for it) into building his own TP52. All he'd have to do is rotate crew through in key positions.

Because 2) The Gladiator Team did not have a long term focus, or objective to win the Americas Cup. Ainslie does.

Because 3) He got a new sponsor who called the shots, and could afford to purchase and fund 2 GC32 Campaigns.

Because 4) He had acquired a monohull test platform which he could specifically develop into a test boat.

Here's a question for you: Why do you think 2 of the 3 top teams are continuing with the 52 Super Series?

Why do you think Luna Rossa, even though they were developing a foiling monohull went and built a brand new TP52? Because it was relevant to their plans looking ahead to the AC, thats why. Hell, they even showed clips of the AC75 during the launch of their brand new, yes, brand new TP52.

So to answer your question, YES, to some teams it obviously is worth funding and campaigning a TP52.

Check this out from 1:51, Ray Davies explains what AC Teams get out of TP52 racing.

 

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, well, well. First of all, happy new year for all of you. I haven't been posting since a while, but I read to catch up from time to time. Noticed we have a sort of DL clon around town!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Basiliscus said:

Yes.  The orbital motion of the wave affects the apparent velocity of the foil, as well as the angle of attack.  And, for a surface piercing foil, the wave height affects the submerged area.  These all have a significant effect on the lift and the motion of the craft.

Flying into the waves is easier than flying with the waves.  When flying from trough to crest into the wave, the apparent velocity is increasing and in the middle the angle of attack is increased.  These effects help lift the boat up and over the crest just when it needs it most.  Approaching the crest from behind, the angle of attack is reduced and then the apparent speed drops off.  This tends to make the boat want to dive into the crest.

For chop, the encounter frequency is so high that the boat can't respond to the waves and it just flies level, letting the waves pass underneath.  But for swells, the boat needs to follow the wave contour.

AIAA-62767-951_Hirsch_Seakeeping.pdf

Thanks basiliscus. Your posts are always instructive...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, jorge said:

Well, well, well. First of all, happy new year for all of you. I haven't been posting since a while, but I read to catch up from time to time. Noticed we have a sort of DL clon around town!

Just do what most of us have done and put him on ignore. It greatly improves the quality of the content around here. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Monkey said:

Just do what most of us have done and put him on ignore. It greatly improves the quality of the content around here. 

The real problem here is too many people for too long have claimed to be knowledgeable about certain subjects and topics, and have spouted the same rubbish for so long, but as soon as they are called out on it, and/or proven to be incorrect, they don't like it and then cry saying "Oh I've been sailing for 40 years so listen to me because I know what I'm talking about" Rubbish. 

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

"It greatly improves the quality of the content around here" Really? 

Not Foyourselves. Tonto.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Not Foyourselves. Tonto.

Hey, I can't help it if you have to resort to trolling because you don't know what you're talking about.

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, jorge said:

Well, well, well. First of all, happy new year for all of you. I haven't been posting since a while, but I read to catch up from time to time. Noticed we have a sort of DL clon around town!

The User @Forourselveschanged his Name 3 Times in the last 6 months. From sClarke to mfluder to Forourselves.

Of Course you can't have a reasonable Discussion with this guy. Most importantly he claims he is some sort of "Holy Christus of Sailing" and knows everything although he hasn't put one foot into a Sailboat in his entire life.

I still think he is an 8-year old kid playing around.

Happy New Year to you as well btw.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

The User @Forourselveschanged his Name 3 Times in the last 6 months. From sClarke to mfluder to Forourselves.

Of Course you can't have a reasonable Discussion with this guy. Most importantly he claims he is some sort of "Holy Christus of Sailing" and knows everything although he hasn't put one foot into a Sailboat in his entire life.

I still think he is an 8-year old kid playing around.

Happy New Year to you as well btw.

The user @dg_sailingfan has changed his name from Alinghi4ever to dg_sailingfan.

No one cares what you think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

 

So please be patient, I am ignorant about foiling....then is the reason the focus in the threads has been on wind speed (as the determinant of foiling percentage)  because of the variously oriented race areas announced (I had forgotten about those https://www.americascup.com/en/news/46_36th-America-s-Cup-Match-dates-and-race-course-announced-at-America-s-Cup-Overture-in-Cowes)?  Swells not a concern (if the direction varies there) because they just pick a course to suit for the day?  Thanks.

Can you PLEEZE stop fussing about NZ/Alinghi/manhood for a sec and help me out? Shit. I admit I don't know crap about foiling. So why don't waves matter for AC36  or do they but they only race under certain conditions or what????  I recall ETNZ got screwed due to wind limits in AC34...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/31/2018 at 5:28 PM, Kiwing said:

I guess swells will not stop foiling just mean you have to foil differently?

A hydrofoil can ideally operate in two different modes.  One is called "platforming", in which the boat sails at a fixed altitude above the mean water level and the waves pass underneath without disturbing the boat.  The other mode is called "contouring", and the boat flies at a fixed distance above the water, following the shape of the wave. 

In reality, a hydrofoil uses a combination of these two modes because the waves have a mix of frequencies and amplitudes.  It lets the shorter, high frequency waves pass by, and it follows the longer, low frequency waves.  Just which wavelengths are ignored and which ones are followed depends on the size of the boat and the speed at which it's operating.

For the sheltered waters in which the last two America's Cup matches have been held, platforming predominated and the waves weren't a big issue.  Hydroptere once turned into a pretzel when it failed to contour properly and stuffed a foil into a wave.  So waves can definitely affect a hydrofoil.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Check this out from 1:51, Ray Davies explains what AC Teams get out of TP52 racing.

Wow, so you guys got the AC36 gig with NZ?  Cool bananas bloke.

That trolls for hire shop must be going gangbusters!  Raking it in!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Monkey said:
18 hours ago, jorge said:

Well, well, well. First of all, happy new year for all of you. I haven't been posting since a while, but I read to catch up from time to time. Noticed we have a sort of DL clon around town!

Just do what most of us have done and put him on ignore. It greatly improves the quality of the content around here. 

Forourselves comes from a pro social media management shop.  Him and a friend, or a sock were all over the S2H Protest thread, defending the indefensible.

Poor bastards have to just post the messages they are told to.  Cunt of a life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, random said:

Forourselves comes from a pro social media management shop.  Him and a friend, or a sock were all over the S2H Protest thread, defending the indefensible.

Poor bastards have to just post the messages they are told to.  Cunt of a life.

As opposed to you who was getting shut down by pretty much everyone all of the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Forourselves said:

As opposed to you who was getting shut down by pretty much everyone all of the time.

As opposed to you make shit up to fit the narrative you have been paid to push.

Like you are making shit up about me.

I hate fucking shills.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, random said:

As opposed to you make shit up to fit the narrative you have been paid to push.

Like you are making shit up about me.

I hate fucking shills.

 

"Mark Richards is a cheat, Mark Richards is arrogant, Mark Richards has an ego, Mark Richards this, Mark Richards that, waa waa waa the AIS was off" waa waa waa. Thats all you kept going about. Fucking Mark Richards like he was the only one on the boat, and they were the only boat who's AIS wasn't transmitting, but no outrage over them, just Mark Richards and Wild Oats XI. The old green eyed monster showing its ugly head. 

You know what Mark Richards is?? A winner! They won just like the other 9 times they raced to Hobart. because they are better. Quit crying about it.The International jury ruled it protest invalid, Black never protested, in fact no one protested. GAME OVER. END OF STORY. If You're going to call them cheats, you better call every other boat (how many was there? 28?) Call all 28 crews cheats as well. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

image.png.bf516472848ebae156b07c5be4884092.png

I love it when a plan comes off like that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Forourselves said:

"Mark Richards is a cheat, Mark Richards is arrogant, Mark Richards has an ego, Mark Richards this, Mark Richards that, waa waa waa the AIS was off" waa waa waa. Thats all you kept going about. Fucking Mark Richards like he was the only one on the boat, and they were the only boat who's AIS wasn't transmitting, but no outrage over them, just Mark Richards and Wild Oats XI. The old green eyed monster showing its ugly head. 

You know what Mark Richards is?? A winner! They won just like the other 9 times they raced to Hobart. because they are better. Quit crying about it.The International jury ruled it protest invalid, Black never protested, in fact no one protested. GAME OVER. END OF STORY. If You're going to call them cheats, you better call every other boat (how many was there? 28?) Call all 28 crews cheats as well. 

Who's Mark Richards?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, random said:

Forourselves comes from a pro social media management shop.  Him and a friend, or a sock were all over the S2H Protest thread, defending the indefensible.

Poor bastards have to just post the messages they are told to.  Cunt of a life.

So one of these two faggots you speak of is the real SClarke?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, pusslicker said:

So one of these two faggots you speak of is the real SClarke?

"Faggots" what are you 12?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^

See summary graphic below.

So, back to sailing...so any more info/insights about wave height/shape/direction and foiling? 

Thanks, Basilicus for the response.  I downloaded the paper.

e85ef1fda0941970e761627fcee48417.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

"Faggots" what are you 12?

I just like how it sounds in my head when I type it. Don't you have anything better for me than the age thing? The weakest of all internet rebuttals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

I just like how it sounds in my head when I type it. Don't you have anything better for me than the age thing? The weakest of all internet rebuttals.

I just like the fact that you've shown how immature you can be. "faggots" haha still living in the 90's lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

"Faggots" what are you 12?

Plus you're getting paid to do this and I'm not. You should be better at it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, pusslicker said:

Plus you're getting paid to do this and I'm not. You should be better at it.

I bet thats what your wife tells you every night

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

Plus you're getting paid to do this and I'm not. You should be better at it.

I think he is pretty good at making tnz fans look like idiots.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I think he is pretty good at making tnz fans look like idiots.

 

At least I can say I support a team. Unlike some on here who bag every thing about AC36, ETNZ and LR and then turn around and say "I'm not an Oracle fan either, I don't have a horse in the race, I'm just here for the technology" and then they get the technology and turn around and say "Oh its too expensive, and its too unsafe" and "ETNZ are being unfair" The same people who bagged ETNZ last time and then turn around and say "I can't recall saying that" yeah right. Those people are the idiots.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok well actually in this thread we can (also) choose from SailGP/ Australia, France, China, USA, Japan whether we are waiting for our bar/bas mitzvahs, Social Security, or the reaper.

So what ABOUT those waves, lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought the discussion was about whether waves effect foiling and what the weather conditions where going to be in the gulf for the AC36 races

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Forourselves said:

I just like the fact that you've shown how immature you can be. "faggots" haha still living in the 90's lol

Sorry about that. I wasn't sure what you guys were calling yourselves these days.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The cat will foil at the lowest level authorized by the chops for maximum RM and nose up enough not to stuff in the swell. The good point is that they can now foil nose higher than before.

The altitude will depend of the attitude of the sea :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/1/2019 at 2:32 AM, Forourselves said:

Hell, they even showed clips of........ and of their brand new, yes, brand new TP52.

Well, why don't you ask ETNZ to be their special advisor and tell them they have to train with TP52s as a second boat ?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Well, why don't you ask ETNZ to be their special advisor and tell them they have to train with TP52s as a second boat ?

Gotta say T-C, I love your humor but well said.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/28/2018 at 7:42 AM, Kiwing said:

@dg_sailingfan This is mostly the case with AC.

It is why such huge leaps in yacht design are made.  When that foiling cat appeared on the Waitemata it took me 2 years to grasp all the amazing things it could do.

Apparent wind sailing!  Now we take it for granted.

Lots of people have been doing apparent wind sailing for decades. Even back in the 1930s the concept was pictured and understood. Foiling cats had absolutely nothing to do with introducing apparent wind sailing or making it known to high performance sailors.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/1/2019 at 10:39 AM, P Flados said:

 

The other fact is that it will behave as a fast foiler.  Trimming, steering, tacking and jibing a fast foiler is entirely different than any traditional mono. 

Is it? I've done very little foiling but can't recall it as being "entirely different" to a skiff, for example. Similarly, sailing classes that do 30 knots+ and gybe at high angles isn't 'entirely different' to sailing even a Laser downwind for fun on a windy day. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Curious said:

I've done very little foiling but can't recall it as being "entirely different" to a skiff, for example.

The speed of a small cat foiler is marginally better than a Tornado so the difference does not really exist, excepted that helming a foiler is much different. more trimming of the main does not equal more speed as more pressure may make it fall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/2/2019 at 7:05 AM, Forourselves said:

"Mark Richards is a cheat, Mark Richards is arrogant, Mark Richards has an ego, Mark Richards this, Mark Richards that, waa waa waa the AIS was off" waa waa waa. Thats all you kept going about. Fucking Mark Richards like he was the only one on the boat, and they were the only boat who's AIS wasn't transmitting, but no outrage over them, just Mark Richards and Wild Oats XI. The old green eyed monster showing its ugly head. 

You know what Mark Richards is?? A winner! They won just like the other 9 times they raced to Hobart. because they are better. Quit crying about it.The International jury ruled it protest invalid, Black never protested, in fact no one protested. GAME OVER. END OF STORY. If You're going to call them cheats, you better call every other boat (how many was there? 28?) Call all 28 crews cheats as well. 

I love a good catch up on here...

Forourselves.... No not cheats, I mean it would be pretty poor form to turn it off for that purpose and Mr Mark Richard wouldn't dream of doing such a thing.

But what is more to the point, is safety rules are put into sailing SIs to save lives.... Many have been lost on the Hobart and if anything were to go wrong in a race AIS can give a very accurate location of a boat at any given time. This helps pull people from thus saving lives.

In my opinion, the International Jury failed to do there job in this instance. Whilst I agree they won the race convincingly and do a very good job year on year, the IJ really should stick to the rules set out and prove the point for all competitors.

There is no doubt about it WO is the perfect boat for the race, well done to the team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Curious said:

Is it? I've done very little foiling but can't recall it as being "entirely different" to a skiff, for example. Similarly, sailing classes that do 30 knots+ and gybe at high angles isn't 'entirely different' to sailing even a Laser downwind for fun on a windy day. 

I assume that by "very little foiling" you either mean none at all or no successful foiling, because if you had sailed a foiler properly you would not make such a dumb and incorrect comment, particularly the comment about lasers. Foilers behave in an entirely different manner. When on a skiff you ease the sails, on a foiler you sheet in. When on a skiff you move your weight back, on a foiler you move forward. When on a skiff you head up, on a foiler you may head up or pull away, depending on the situation. You have to completely relearn your automatic responses to any given situation. Steeringa  foiler is also completely different because without the turning resistance of the hull in the water, the boat responds to helm movement in a way that feels so alien when you first start. Steer a foiler like a skiff and you will wipe out. 

Your laser comment is simply dumb. What you clearly don't understand is that it is not about what course you are sailing, although a properly sailed laser would not steer the same course downwind in blow as a foiler. Consider just one factor, the speed of the boat vs the windspeed. A laser will not go faster than the windspeed when sailing downwind on a windy day. A foiler will. This means 2 things. The first is that the next gust on a laser is always behind you, while on a foiler it is always in front of you. The other thing is how you sheet your sail. on the laser, the sail will be almost fully eased to even eased past 90 degrees to the centreline, depending on waves and course steered. An a foiler, the windier it gets downwind, the more likely you are to pull the sail in harder. Downwind on an A, the traveller is eased about 400mm and the main is sheeted hard on because the apparent wind is so far forward.

The appeal of foiling for most people is that they have to completely relearn how you sail a boat, because it is entirely different to any sailing they have done before. This applies whether you are sailing a Moth, A Class, AC50 or AC72. There is only one way to practice for it and that is to sail a foiler.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Apart from your severe "dumb" adjective (used I think for emphasis) I agree although I have never even sailed on a foiler, watching the videos and listening to the sailors talking about "the hardest thing being, how to get from the gust your in to the gust in front" really makes you realise how much of a huge jump "apparent wind sailing" is.  The problem is there has always been apparent wind on all sailing boats and the "apparent wind sailing" is not a good description. I wonder what the real foiling sailors call it?  It will be interesting as all partly foiling boats hit the boundary and start "flying" where perhaps you will need a new helm and sail strategy to sail it successfully.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

I assume that by "very little foiling" you either mean none at all or no successful foiling, because if you had sailed a foiler properly you would not make such a dumb and incorrect comment, particularly the comment about lasers. Foilers behave in an entirely different manner. When on a skiff you ease the sails, on a foiler you sheet in. When on a skiff you move your weight back, on a foiler you move forward. When on a skiff you head up, on a foiler you may head up or pull away, depending on the situation. You have to completely relearn your automatic responses to any given situation. Steeringa  foiler is also completely different because without the turning resistance of the hull in the water, the boat responds to helm movement in a way that feels so alien when you first start. Steer a foiler like a skiff and you will wipe out. 

Your laser comment is simply dumb. What you clearly don't understand is that it is not about what course you are sailing, although a properly sailed laser would not steer the same course downwind in blow as a foiler. Consider just one factor, the speed of the boat vs the windspeed. A laser will not go faster than the windspeed when sailing downwind on a windy day. A foiler will. This means 2 things. The first is that the next gust on a laser is always behind you, while on a foiler it is always in front of you. The other thing is how you sheet your sail. on the laser, the sail will be almost fully eased to even eased past 90 degrees to the centreline, depending on waves and course steered. An a foiler, the windier it gets downwind, the more likely you are to pull the sail in harder. Downwind on an A, the traveller is eased about 400mm and the main is sheeted hard on because the apparent wind is so far forward.

The appeal of foiling for most people is that they have to completely relearn how you sail a boat, because it is entirely different to any sailing they have done before. This applies whether you are sailing a Moth, A Class, AC50 or AC72. There is only one way to practice for it and that is to sail a foiler.

To reply in your way - fuck off you shit for brains moron, and learn how to read English.

To reply in my way - yes, foilers are sailed differently in many ways - nothing I wrote implied they were not. All craft have their own quirks. However, they are not sailed in an "entirely different way" as you claimed. Every type of sailing is similar in some ways, even classes as dissimilar as J/24s and windsurfers. The fact that they use opposite techniques in some ways does not mean that they sail in an "entirely different way".

You chose to look at the differences between the types I mentioned and foilers, rather than the similarities, as with the fact that you raised the issue that a Laser is slower than gusts downwind but ignored the fact that skiffs are often faster than the gusts just as foilers are.

The reference to taking a Laser "downwind for fun on a windy day" referred to the fact that even playing with fairly slow boats can give some of us a pretty good feel for the use of apparent wind even in classes with a top speed far higher than an A Class. Sure, in a class that hits 30 (or 40) knots the gusts are in front of you - so what?  Plenty of good sailors find no issue in handling that sort of contrast between sailing styles.

Even the process of learning why and how you handle situations in different craft provides lessons for some people. If you are not one of those who can transfer lessons from a craft that moves at 14 knots to one that moves at over 35 knots using different mechanics then that's fine. However other people think differently. One doubts that people like Slingsby, Gough and Goodison found their slow-boat experience utterly useless in foilers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

I assume that by "very little foiling" you either mean none at all or no successful foiling, because if you had sailed a foiler properly you would not make such a dumb and incorrect comment, particularly the comment about lasers. Foilers behave in an entirely different manner. When on a skiff you ease the sails, on a foiler you sheet in. When on a skiff you move your weight back, on a foiler you move forward. When on a skiff you head up, on a foiler you may head up or pull away, depending on the situation. You have to completely relearn your automatic responses to any given situation. Steeringa  foiler is also completely different because without the turning resistance of the hull in the water, the boat responds to helm movement in a way that feels so alien when you first start. Steer a foiler like a skiff and you will wipe out. 

Your laser comment is simply dumb. What you clearly don't understand is that it is not about what course you are sailing, although a properly sailed laser would not steer the same course downwind in blow as a foiler. Consider just one factor, the speed of the boat vs the windspeed. A laser will not go faster than the windspeed when sailing downwind on a windy day. A foiler will. This means 2 things. The first is that the next gust on a laser is always behind you, while on a foiler it is always in front of you. The other thing is how you sheet your sail. on the laser, the sail will be almost fully eased to even eased past 90 degrees to the centreline, depending on waves and course steered. An a foiler, the windier it gets downwind, the more likely you are to pull the sail in harder. Downwind on an A, the traveller is eased about 400mm and the main is sheeted hard on because the apparent wind is so far forward.

The appeal of foiling for most people is that they have to completely relearn how you sail a boat, because it is entirely different to any sailing they have done before. This applies whether you are sailing a Moth, A Class, AC50 or AC72. There is only one way to practice for it and that is to sail a foiler.

To put it your childish way - fuck off.

To discuss the issue in a reasoned matter - yes, foilers are sailed differently in many ways. Nothing I wrote implied they were not. All craft have their own quirks. However, they are not sailed in an "entirely different way" as you claimed. No craft are - even yachts and windsurfers have lots of similarities that you can use to learn from, and also contrasts that can also provide valuable insights.

The reference to taking a Laser "downwind for fun on a windy day" referred to the fact that even playing with fairly slow boats can give you a pretty good feel for some uses of apparent wind. Some of us find that going out in 25 knots and throwing a Laser about on broad reaches can relate to going downwind on something which has a top speed far higher than an A Class. Sure, in a class that hits 30 (or 40) knots the gusts are in front of you - so what? Plenty of good sailors find no issue in handling that sort of contrast between sailing styles, just as someone like Slingsby could switch from having hull and rig heeled to leeward on a Laser, to having both heeled to windward on a Moth, and then hop on his windsurfer and have the hull heeled to lee and the rig heeled to windward.

The background of top foiler sailors, which includes being good at classes like Lasers, cats, 49ers and windsurfers, indicates how people can come from both fast and slow craft and win on foilers. That must surely indicate how you can draw lessons and similarities from any type of sailing and apply it to other forms, even foiling. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like the way you said that in two different voices.

Hopefully something will resonate with not-a-bunch-of-class-sailor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, barfy said:

I like the way you said that in two different voices.

Hopefully something will resonate with not-a-bunch-of-class-sailor.

Whoops, keybord issus again 9sic)  :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Curious,

My bad.  I should have anticipated that the obvious meaning would not be good enough for someone.  

My "entirely different" was probably poorly worded.

I was trying to say something more along the lines of

The techniques required to be at the fast end of the fleet on a fast foiler are sufficiently different from the techniques needed to to be at the fast end of a laser fleet are such that most who have done both would call the techniques "entirely different".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And I believe reaction times need to be faster on Foilers than wetted hull sailing boats. That said, you can't be slow on either and I am only splitting hairs, half a hair width :-).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pflados, if that is so, why is a Laser champ now the Moth world champ yet again, with a Laser/49er/Star sailor second?

Why are the same guys winning the A Class worlds on foils as before foils, if the skills are so different?  Are you really trying to say that their seahugging skills are now useless, and the fact that they still win on foils is just a remarkable coincidence?  

Sure, the techniques are different in many ways - they are among conventional boats too. But people can use skills learned in craft as disparate as yachts and windsurfers to improve their performance in each type, just as people once used Finn skills in 12 Metres. You can use insights gained in doing a bottom turn on a mast-high wave on a sinker windsurfer to improve your light-air upwind performance on an ocean racer.

Sure, not every sailor transposes skills learned in one craft to another. It may not be the most efficient way to learn (although the fact that so many top monofoiler sailors have sailed such a wide variety of craft may be significant). But the point is that people on a forum who are not top sailors should not be slinging shit at top sailors who apparently believe that sailing TP52s could be a good way for those particular sailors to spend one particular time during their preparation, because many of the best enjoy and learn from sailing in different types.

If you know so much more about campaigning than they do, then prove it on the water. Until then, why not learn from them rather than saying that they are wrong.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK .. i am just one of those guys thats opens and reads  this site twice a day and reads anything about  Americas Cup shit .. just one of many ... soooo  why is this thread still in the Americas Cup thread .... its a nothing compared to the real thing... just a strap on ....  so how come it gets so much attention ... why support a rich brats tantrum .. and a stuck up kiwis ego ... :unsure:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cool.now it kinda seems like all 6 boats are commissioned and trialled, where two weeks ago press seemed to allude to only two boats tested.

Only one month now until the sharp end of the project.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think this series will be a huge asset to the AC in the long term, as it will give a new bunch of sailors both simulator hours and real hands-on experience competing on foils at 50 kts. Increasing the talent pool with that specific skillset means more potential AC teams in future so long as the AC boats remain ultra high performance. The nationalist component of Sail GP also plays into that.

RC et al have done a really cool thing here, starting with recycling some great boats rather than abandoning them as has happened so many times in the past - looking forward to the racing.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Team GBR has a lot on to be competitive in this first year. They've only had a few days out in NZ, plus some simulators time, which Dylan said on insta wasn't much like the real thing (this seemed a bit off message, as others say how realistic it is). I've not seen any manoeuvres from them, and you'd think in these boat 100% foiling will be the standard. 

"they were very close to completing foiling tacks and gybes despite a steep learning curve"... then they only have one day together sailing before the Sydney event... confined waters, lots of chop, very gusty and shifty. 

Dylan and Stu won't be present for the sea trials either, due to their 49er commitments. 

I think the first few events are going to be pretty two tiered between those effectively learning to sail the boats, and those with an AC campaign in the bag (Aus + JPN).

This update before Christmas is pretty telling: https://sailgp.com/news/GBR-update?fbclid=IwAR2BXx1lTnEKoj8obNuOSCC2MEj1YH3-4PUUIWzEvWD3pf8V447QVyJy-kQ

Can they find their feet by the end of the year though? I guess that depends on how much time they get training. Could be tricky with F50s in containers and Dylan and Stu trying to get selected for the games. 

I'm rooting for them to pull of a result. But it would be a shock. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

I'm rooting for them to pull of a result. But it would be a shock. 

It was only a short clip, but yeah, they didn't look polished at all. Foil 100% around the race track? I don't think so. What is going for them, is that the other teams are going to similarly unfamiliar. The best racing we saw in AC35 was the LV final, with both boats/crews sailing at or near their peak. The first few events of this series will be way off that level. By the final couple of events it should be better. Very similar to how the Superfoiler series played out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, barfy said:

Cool.now it kinda seems like all 6 boats are commissioned and trialled, where two weeks ago press seemed to allude to only two boats tested.

Only one month now until the sharp end of the project.

6 teams trained on just 2 boats, I think, based on what I recall reading various places.  None of the training videos or publicity photos showed anything but first (1) generic F50 paint job on what likely bacame the US boat, and later on (2) the AUS kangaroo boat.  6 boats are supposedly built, better be because they need to be in Sydney next month.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ya, they seem to now be conflating tested and sailing with built...no matter, I'm just a spectator.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^me, too. But they do seem ambiguous about how much training teams get. My impression is the Australians got more, maybe proximity and background helped in that regard ;)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BTW, is anybody planning to GO to the Sydney event in February? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Enzedel92 said:

THIS IS NOT THE AMERICAS CUP FFS!! PLEASE MOVE THIS THREAD!!

been there done that just reported your transgression.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It was all about AC boats from #2427 for over a page so must be germane.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, barfy said:

'Carnival of carnage' you may not be wrong: 6 boats piling into the leeward gate at 50 knots! Hands up if you think that is a great idea?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you reckon they should all being towing a bucket or two  to slow them down?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

not mine to judge doggy, just putting my opinion out there. Obviously better minds than mine have signed off on the premise. Once we see how it unfolds, hopefully all safe at the end of event one, then it will be time to spout off about buckets, fleet vrs match, reaching starts (i assume).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/7/2019 at 6:37 PM, barfy said:

That is one team who is having some fun.   "They are heading for right gate....oh no wait...they're doing a Wallaby!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Meanwhile, back at SF Bay, Oracle just paid $200 million for naming rights to the former AT&T Stadium where the Giants play.  On a per-year basis, cheaper than an AC campaign and gets the name on prime time US TV.  The Giants are baseball, btw.

Oracle Arena (named not owned) is losing the Warriors basketball team to Chase Center in SF. Near Salesforce. Not on a redone pier.

 

https://amp.si.com/mlb/2019/01/09/san-francisco-giants-oracle-park-rename-att-park

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Meanwhile, back at SF Bay, Oracle just paid $200 million for naming rights to the former AT&T Stadium where the Giants play.  On a per-year basis, cheaper than an AC campaign and gets the name on prime time US TV.  The Giants are baseball, btw.

It is not cheaper than an AC campaign for Oracle Corporation. Oracle didn't pay a cent towards the AC or the Orcale Racing team. All the money for the team and AC came from Larry Ellison's personal wealth. The AC was the best value marketing Oracle ever got In the case of the stadium name, all that money is coming from Oracle Corporation. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oracle did not pay anything at all for branding, logos, sponsorship rights?  Did not contribute any software, person-hours, machine time?  LE just put the logo everywhere out of happiness over anyvpositive impact to his 1 billion shares? 

If so then thanks for the correction.

Did Oracle pay a dime for the aerobatic plane?  For Oracle tennis eg Challenger Series?

BTW then LE must be reimbursing Oracle Corp. for use of media facilities (ie for his virtual talk at the launch) and for putting SailGP stuff in Oracle Corp social media.  

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I looked a little online.  Seems Oracle Corporation (NOT LE, who owns tennis stuff) pays at least hundreds of thousands yearly for "tennis investment"

http://www.sportspromedia.com/news/oracle-boosts-tennis-investment-with-new-challenger-series

https://www.oracle.com/corporate/tennis/overview.html

I still wonder if the company did not cough up some $ for the logo placement on the boats along with other "sponsors"  Oh well, who cares.  I only have a little of that stock in my funds and come the recession it all will tank.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sooo, I'm thinking ; one month to go before race date.

One week of training, think this was mentioned?

6 boats x 2 days each assembly...only one crew doing this,I think is optimistic from container to splash..call it 2 weeks.

One week to pop a base.

So, any news from the ground over Sydney way?

Edit: oh, and an app so I can watch it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/13/2019 at 7:21 AM, barfy said:

Sooo, I'm thinking ; one month to go before race date.

One week of training, think this was mentioned?

6 boats x 2 days each assembly...only one crew doing this,I think is optimistic from container to splash..call it 2 weeks.

One week to pop a base.

So, any news from the ground over Sydney way?

Edit: oh, and an app so I can watch it

Had a chat with Mr T from Core Comp before Christmas and he said around 24+ hours to assemble a boat. They were mostly packed up and either already departed or ready to go back in early December.

I think this first regatta could be a laugh as the teams will be far from polished. The French in particular got hardly any practice time in Bream Bay.

I'm really looking forward to it but like you say, not sure what the broadcast situation is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So my two week guesstimate of boat assembly is pretty conservative, unless they go at it day and night. Thx for that insight.

I don't know if I would be laughing jumping on one of these machines with a team that had minimal practice...if anyone would enjoy that it would be the French I guess...

Point being, anybody got pics of base or such yet, please...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was nosing around the sail gp webby ,I see there are still free tours toCockatoo Island, starting beginning of Feb. Better get some SA spy teams over there.

Must be a logistical nightmare doing all assembly and maintenance on an island.

I've never been over there so I have no idea what goes on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Saw the first of the 70(!) containers arriving to woolwich and loading on to a barge around 3rd Jan. Have been away for the last week but live nearby so will try and get some pics of base and setup progress. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, they Just bought the circus 3 more years, outstanding.

Thought I also read the idea was to give the teams some time on the water. I may have been thinking about the Cup preliminary racing tho.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

Sailingworld has a summary article. Says the gravy train lasts 5 years now then they plan to sell the teams off.

https://www.sailingworld.com/cups-pro-sailing-spinoff-takes-off

Still no word on how they plan to distribute video images? Or what in the old days were called "TV rights".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Still no word on how they plan to distribute video images? Or what in the old days were called "TV rights".

Better figure that out. The "sell teams" part mentions Man United or Dallas Cowboys teams valued at $4b.  I looked up F1 car racing since I know nothing about cars and in 2017 all 12 teams combined were worth about $4b, with Ferrari being about $1b. 

Surely TV audience size matters?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Forourselves said:

 

I liked the video.  One thing struck me was the F50 rudders looked a lot like the ETNZ AC50 ones in the video here

I could not find a clear picture of the OTUSA AC50 rudders so I do not know  if they were the same (thought not but vague).

Also, sounds like the helm still is very very busy (including flying the boat), with buttons, twists, and footpedals. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The SailGP France had a good picture of rudders in a tweet yesterday

 

IMG_20190116_122551.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

I liked the video.  One thing struck me was the F50 rudders looked a lot like the ETNZ AC50 ones in the video here

I could not find a clear picture of the OTUSA AC50 rudders so I do not know  if they were the same (thought not but vague).

Both ETNZ and Artemis used this style of rudder wings. OTUSA probably did not, but they did make a lot of changes as the match went on and they might have come up with new rudders during that time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/7/2018 at 12:28 PM, Stingray~ said:

Would love to see that too.

SR, this is your last post, still in the house ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

MICKEY ICKERT - North Sails

"As for another holy grail, predicting the America’s Cup future, Mickey says the current TP52 fleet is a good place to start. “The sailors need to keep on using their skills before the new boats come online. Everybody needs to keep on the forefront of what is important. Design sails and make them faster with the communication available. Make them faster with the technology available. Optimize for whatever their target is. Those skills will be needed for the new boat. The top end optimization will step up as we go towards the next America’s Cup.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"The countdown is on, with the inaugural SailGP event in Sydney, Australia now just 25 days away.

The SailGP Sydney event will take place on Friday 15 and Saturday 16 February 2019. Each national team will compete in fleet races, culminating with the top two teams racing for a place on the winner’s podium in a match race on Saturday afternoon.

Team Japan recently picked up their F50, boat number six, the last boat to be built.

It’s a completely new build on a very tight deadline to be ready. So, they’re going to have to rely on their sailing team to take past experiences and come together with only a handful of training days ahead of the event in Sydney.

The Japan SailGP Team was able to accomplish some critical goals during a recent testing session in New Zealand, despite getting a limited amount of time on the new supercharged F50.

“Despite the session getting cut short, the experience we have in our team means we’re in pretty good shape, but we have a lot to do in Sydney in terms of gelling as a team.”commented CEO and Helmsman Nathan Outteridge."

sailweb

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Should see the first boats on the water today in Sydney.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anybody know any cams up around Cockatoo Island?  All I can find is bridge/Opera House ones eg

https://webcamsydney.com

https://www.earthtv.com/en/webcam/sydney-opera-house/live-stream

Maybe they will come zipping by but would be nice to see the base area.  

The race area is past the Opera House around Shark Island.  Webcams?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites