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Offshore 1

Larry's AC50 Circus

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24 minutes ago, sclarke said:

No, but then again I don't have to, as you've slung insults at Me for merely wanting answers after your group of merry men seem to have said something they now regret.

So, you assert BS without been able to prove it or link it. :o 

 

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

So, you assert BS without been able to prove it or link it. :o 

 

You once believed it was full steam ahead, now you're back tracking as well. 

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5 hours ago, sclarke said:

If it hasn't been officially announced, its not confirmed, simple as that. Your "source" sounds like he/ she has said something they regret, and is now trying to back track that statement.

WTF are you on about? Why do you need an official announcement of everything? That is not how things work. As an example, Iain Murray is running this new series. Because there has been no announcement, are you suggesting he isn't, or that he shouldn't do any work on it, or that his work is pointless because there hasn't been an announcement? Why do you think these people need to make announcements? They will when they are ready, but in the mean time, do you really believe that nothing is being done because there are no announcements?

Some people make announcements early, when there is some advantage to doing so, while others choose not to announce things until every detail is finalised. Is it really so hard to believe that Larry might want to announce this new series only when everything is in place, all details are known and as part of a build up to the events themselves. It seems to me to be very reasonable that if this new series is for 2019, you wouldn't announce it until later in 2018, otherwise there is no momentum, no build up and a big vacuum of no news. These events do not organise themselves overnight. There is a lot to put in place.There will always be a gap between making the decision to go ahead and announcing the whole deal, because of the time it takes to put it together. That doesn't mean there is uncertainty in whether it will happen. it just means they haven't made an announcement. The only people who need to know in advance of the announcement are those directly involved, and they really don't need an official announcement to know what is going on or that it is really happening.

Where you get the idea that what i have said suggests a source has said something they regret is beyond me. Please stop reading things into my words that simply aren't there. 

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5 hours ago, sclarke said:

You once believed it was full steam ahead, now you're back tracking as well. 

Can you find the quote where I said it was full steam ahead or that I am back tracking now ?  I don't pretend to know, I call your arguments BS.

And you don't even read properly what people write.

 

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47 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Can you find the quote where I said it was full steam ahead or that I am back tracking now ?  I don't pretend to know, I call your arguments BS.

And you don't even read properly what people write.

 

Why even get involved? 

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1 hour ago, A Class Sailor said:

WTF are you on about? Why do you need an official announcement of everything? That is not how things work. As an example, Iain Murray is running this new series. Because there has been no announcement, are you suggesting he isn't, or that he shouldn't do any work on it, or that his work is pointless because there hasn't been an announcement? Why do you think these people need to make announcements? They will when they are ready, but in the mean time, do you really believe that nothing is being done because there are no announcements?

Some people make announcements early, when there is some advantage to doing so, while others choose not to announce things until every detail is finalised. Is it really so hard to believe that Larry might want to announce this new series only when everything is in place, all details are known and as part of a build up to the events themselves. It seems to me to be very reasonable that if this new series is for 2019, you wouldn't announce it until later in 2018, otherwise there is no momentum, no build up and a big vacuum of no news. These events do not organise themselves overnight. There is a lot to put in place.There will always be a gap between making the decision to go ahead and announcing the whole deal, because of the time it takes to put it together. That doesn't mean there is uncertainty in whether it will happen. it just means they haven't made an announcement. The only people who need to know in advance of the announcement are those directly involved, and they really don't need an official announcement to know what is going on or that it is really happening.

Where you get the idea that what i have said suggests a source has said something they regret is beyond me. Please stop reading things into my words that simply aren't there. 

Richard Gladwell hasn't reported anything, Sailor girl hasn't reported anything, not even a rumour, Clean, Jack Griffin, even Ehman hasn't brought it up! Ainslies website has nothing that even remotely mentions an AC50 series. CORE Builders, Scuttlebutt, Sail World, nothing. The only ones who know whats happening  are surfsailor and Team_GBR.

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2 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

Rich, coming from you.

Hahaha oh look its the pot calling the kettle black.

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7 hours ago, sclarke said:

Richard Gladwell hasn't reported anything, Sailor girl hasn't reported anything, not even a rumour, Clean, Jack Griffin, even Ehman hasn't brought it up! Ainslies website has nothing that even remotely mentions an AC50 series. CORE Builders, Scuttlebutt, Sail World, nothing. The only ones who know whats happening  are surfsailor and Team_GBR.

RG reported on this months ago:

https://www.sail-world.com/news/200820/Americas-Cup--New-AC50-circuit-gets-more-airplay

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33 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

Exactly. Since then, nothing. Apparently its supposed to start October 28th to November 1st THIS YEAR. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

On Tuesday's show, Ehman named six teams Oracle Team USA Now shut down, Alinghi, who apparently aren't in any more Red Bull (backing an Austrian team), Under who? Slingsby? So where does that leave Oracle Team USA with Slingsby and Spithill gone? Japan (less certain, and highly unlikely), Artemis Racing, under Outteridge? If Slingsby is with Oracle, and Outteridge is with Artemis, who's left in the Aussie team?and the [Groupama] Team France come on, lets be honest, Groupama are out as a sponsor and Norauto aren't going to sponsor an AC50 campaign so France are out. Four of those teams were signatories to the Framework Agreement announced in late January 2017 - Which is now null and void.

So what have we learned? If Oracle are in, Australia are out. Japan is HIGHLY unlikely, especially with Barker gone. Alinghi is out, Artemis Racing is probably the only team who may be strong, although with Outteridge focusing on the Nacra, and Tokyo 2020 in a new class, its highly unlikely he's going to have time to split his time between both. But hey, Pete and Blair did it, so who knows, but that was the Americas Cup, not some brand new series with no prestige.

Groupama are out as a sponsor of Team France, so its more likely they're out too

BAR aren't doing it, no way. Monohulls and The Americas Cup is the focus for his team right now, he's not going to potentially sacrifice another AC cycle for a meaningless new series. You've said it before, this cycle is going to be expensive, so Ainslie can't afford to throw away his AC budget on another series. Simmer and Ainslies jobs are to win the Americas Cup, so thats what they're going to focus on doing. They're out.

Its wishful thinking. Its not going to happen. And if it does, its not going to last. Especially with the build up and eventual success of the Americas Cup event in Auckland. Cool boats, but unless someone wins the Americas Cup that wants to go back to the AC50's, we won't see them again.

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16 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

.......

It seems to me to be very reasonable that if this new series is for 2019, you wouldn't announce it until later in 2018, otherwise there is no momentum, no build up and a big vacuum of no news.

........

For sure you'd want to wait until LR announces the dates for the pre-AC events - so you could schedule the Spite Cup to clash nicely :D

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12 hours ago, sclarke said:

BAR aren't doing it, no way. Monohulls and The Americas Cup is the focus for his team right now,

So why are his guys still doing so much multihull stuff?

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5 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

So why are his guys still doing so much multihull stuff?

They’re not. They’re doing monohull stuff. They’re involved in the Pac52 Class, and the 52 Super Series. The youth team are signed up for the ESS, which is why they’re sailing GC32’s. 

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17 hours ago, MischiefBDA said:

Are you back tracking? :lol:

Nope, you’ll find I’m consistent in that point of view.

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1 hour ago, sclarke said:

They’re not. They’re doing monohull stuff. They’re involved in the Pac52 Class, and the 52 Super Series. The youth team are signed up for the ESS, which is why they’re sailing GC32’s. 

Yes they are and thanks for confirming that BAR is doing multihull sailing. Note that the helm is not an academy sailor but one of the mainstays of the team. Then go do your homework and see who else from BAR has been sailing multis. They are also sailing a monohull, but they have chosen to keep sailing foiling multihulls because it is closer to what will be sailed in the AC than the TP52's. 

It's not hard to see why an AC50 circuit would be attractive to an AC team. It would be the closest they can get to racing the AC boats. It's all very well going out training in the new class, but that won't build the high speed boat on boat experience the sailors need. Where else will they get that sort of sailing?

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^ probably vr sims and working with the design team...if you are ETNZ.

cheaper and on point.

worked last time

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3 hours ago, barfy said:

^ probably vr sims and working with the design team...if you are ETNZ.

cheaper and on point.

worked last time

Not quite. Your memory seems to be fairly selective. By their own admission, they had the raw speed but the biggest gains came after they arrived in Bermuda and began mixing with the others, because sailing on their own didn't prepare them for sailing in close company with others. It's also easy to forget that ETNZ was the only boat to get it wrong during racing and capsize. Practising on your own only gets you so far. You can do things 1000 times on your own, but doing it with other boats around is different.

The best way to practise racing very fast boats is to race very fast boats. There aren't many opportunities to do so. I cannot see how it can be anything other than an advantage to do some racing in AC50's. It's not exactly going to be a huge distraction either. They won't be training for months and months. I think it would fit in very well with an AC campaign, just like lots of other events, such as Pete and Blair still sailing their 49er last time around. They showed you don't need to be 100% AC with no other sailing.

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PB in a one-design!? Hmmm, now why is that not analogous?

and.... wasn't plenty of boat on boat happily provided by Iain ever neutral Murray, free to all comers last time......but one team was not there. They must have sucked when it came to crunch time...the dummies.

So ^ a bit simplistic perhaps as an overall strategy? :D "Head out of the boat".

You obviously need some - but not at the expense of development and perfecting control systems.

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10 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

Not quite. Your memory seems to be fairly selective. By their own admission, they had the raw speed but the biggest gains came after they arrived in Bermuda and began mixing with the others, because sailing on their own didn't prepare them for sailing in close company with others. It's also easy to forget that ETNZ was the only boat to get it wrong during racing and capsize. Practising on your own only gets you so far. You can do things 1000 times on your own, but doing it with other boats around is different.

The best way to practise racing very fast boats is to race very fast boats. There aren't many opportunities to do so. I cannot see how it can be anything other than an advantage to do some racing in AC50's. It's not exactly going to be a huge distraction either. They won't be training for months and months. I think it would fit in very well with an AC campaign, just like lots of other events, such as Pete and Blair still sailing their 49er last time around. They showed you don't need to be 100% AC with no other sailing.

By their own admission, and Kevin Shoebridge said this, "the biggest gains were made sailing by themselves back home in Auckland" The sailing team learned from mixing from the other teams and comparing their own package to that of the others. GD stated himself that they held a lot of their "Go fast stuff" back in Auckland. He also said "they weren't at their best until 26 hours before the Cup match started, when they had brought all their weaponry to bear.

There has to be a good reason to race in the AC50's, and I guess if you weight up the pro's and cons, there aren't many pro's and a lot of cons.

Pro's, they go fast and look cool.

Cons, they are expensive, they require one crew just to launch them, and another to ail them, they are very finely tuned and require constant maintenance. Wings are logistically difficult, are difficult to raise, especially in heavy air, and they are expensive and time intensive to build and maintain. The systems are complicated and aren't conducive to "Real Sailing" Docking procedures are difficult, as the boats require "Side slipping" to return to the dock.

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15 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

Yes they are and thanks for confirming that BAR is doing multihull sailing. Note that the helm is not an academy sailor but one of the mainstays of the team. Then go do your homework and see who else from BAR has been sailing multis. They are also sailing a monohull, but they have chosen to keep sailing foiling multihulls because it is closer to what will be sailed in the AC than the TP52's. 

It's not hard to see why an AC50 circuit would be attractive to an AC team. It would be the closest they can get to racing the AC boats. It's all very well going out training in the new class, but that won't build the high speed boat on boat experience the sailors need. Where else will they get that sort of sailing?

Remember even members of ETNZ have been competing in the ESS in multihulls. Josh Junior was helming the ESS New Zealand Extreme Sailing Team boat until Jason Waterhouse took over heming duties, so I guess that means Emirates Team NZ have signed up to the AC50 series as well? As well as doing the Americas Cup? And I guess Larry has decided to fund ETNZ now too?

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On 13/04/2018 at 6:05 PM, sclarke said:

Exactly. Since then, nothing. Apparently its supposed to start October 28th to November 1st THIS YEAR. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

On Tuesday's show, Ehman named six teams Oracle Team USA Now shut down, Alinghi, who apparently aren't in any more Red Bull (backing an Austrian team), Under who? Slingsby? So where does that leave Oracle Team USA with Slingsby and Spithill gone? Japan (less certain, and highly unlikely), Artemis Racing, under Outteridge? If Slingsby is with Oracle, and Outteridge is with Artemis, who's left in the Aussie team?and the [Groupama] Team France come on, lets be honest, Groupama are out as a sponsor and Norauto aren't going to sponsor an AC50 campaign so France are out. Four of those teams were signatories to the Framework Agreement announced in late January 2017 - Which is now null and void.

So what have we learned? If Oracle are in, Australia are out. Japan is HIGHLY unlikely, especially with Barker gone. Alinghi is out, Artemis Racing is probably the only team who may be strong, although with Outteridge focusing on the Nacra, and Tokyo 2020 in a new class, its highly unlikely he's going to have time to split his time between both. But hey, Pete and Blair did it, so who knows, but that was the Americas Cup, not some brand new series with no prestige.

Groupama are out as a sponsor of Team France, so its more likely they're out too

BAR aren't doing it, no way. Monohulls and The Americas Cup is the focus for his team right now, he's not going to potentially sacrifice another AC cycle for a meaningless new series. You've said it before, this cycle is going to be expensive, so Ainslie can't afford to throw away his AC budget on another series. Simmer and Ainslies jobs are to win the Americas Cup, so thats what they're going to focus on doing. They're out.

Its wishful thinking. Its not going to happen. And if it does, its not going to last. Especially with the build up and eventual success of the Americas Cup event in Auckland. Cool boats, but unless someone wins the Americas Cup that wants to go back to the AC50's, we won't see them again.

I cant say if it will or will not happen but i have 100% i have had conversations about aspects of the racing and design with people working for the organisation. i Have personally asked Grant Simmer post Sydney to Hobart in Hobart and had confirmation that boards have been made and boats being built, doesn't mean it will happen but its rolling in the right direction, wont challenge the AC never will but it will be an awesome feat if it does happen with some bloody cool racing.

You do know that basically each team had 2 drivers yeah? lets look...

Oracle - as you said jimmy and Slingsby - jimmy is now out and Slingsby assumed in for the 50 and remember Kirby drove quite a bit also as did Andrew Campbell

Artemis - Outteridge assumed still with them, Checco still unsigned i think and don't forget Goodison spent a lot of time on the wood early on before they got Checco

France - Cammas  I would think Frank would jump at the chance to drive for any team as would Minoprio who also got some time on the wood

Japan - Barker signed as you said but Waterhouse is and would be more than capable of driving one as would Draper

BAR - Ainslie obviously will stay with his team, McMillan - still working for them but might jump to get a top seat, Paul Campbell -James, very comfortable on the wood.

Kiwi's - Burling I believe its been said he has signed with them and assume he would. Ashby - the guy is multihull royalty so why wouldn't he look at running his own team?

Now thats just the guys on the teams, What about other guys that are well and truely experienced enough outside that. Santi Lange, Yann Guichard, Arnaud Psarofaghis, Roman Hagara, Phill Roberts, thats just to name a small few currently racing foiling cats now and I'm sure that there are plenty that I've missed.

Quite sure theres enough driving talent there to fill as many teams as they want.

As far as I'm aware BAR havn't entered AC36 yet? strangely a team that signed the AC50 framework.. Might be more there with issues on contract disputes? just interesting that a huge team like that hasn't signed on yet or announced anything, And they are a team that values sustainability and advertising to keep sponsors happy so a foiling 50 world tour would do a huge amount to keep that side of the business happy, Granted I'm sure they will do the cup one way or another so might have to humour the idea to not break a contract

Your quite sure Slingsby will be with Oracle? for what reason? I'm leading to thinking he'd rather base in Aus and do that. 

All good points but I think that there is a lot of haters on what will be an amazing Circuit if it does in fact go ahead, Nothing should be taken away from the AC and to be honest nothing will take away from the AC, Its just another avenue that people can watch and get excited about our great sport. Not sure why the negativity. 

Anyways I hope it does get off the ground and we see some wicked boats ripping around at 40+ knots on TV's around the world.

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16 minutes ago, agk470 said:

i Have personally asked Grant Simmer post Sydney to Hobart in Hobart and had confirmation that boards have been made and boats being built,

How would Simmer know? There has been no official announcement!:lol:

Why would the CEO of BAR be up to date with what's going on in Larry's new circus? Surely them can't have any interest in that series;)

 

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6 hours ago, sclarke said:

By their own admission, and Kevin Shoebridge said this, "the biggest gains were made sailing by themselves back home in Auckland" The sailing team learned from mixing from the other teams and comparing their own package to that of the others. GD stated himself that they held a lot of their "Go fast stuff" back in Auckland. He also said "they weren't at their best until 26 hours before the Cup match started, when they had brought all their weaponry to bear.

There has to be a good reason to race in the AC50's, and I guess if you weight up the pro's and cons, there aren't many pro's and a lot of cons.

Pro's, they go fast and look cool.

Cons, they are expensive, they require one crew just to launch them, and another to ail them, they are very finely tuned and require constant maintenance. Wings are logistically difficult, are difficult to raise, especially in heavy air, and they are expensive and time intensive to build and maintain. The systems are complicated and aren't conducive to "Real Sailing" Docking procedures are difficult, as the boats require "Side slipping" to return to the dock.

they require one crew just to launch them, and another tos ail them,?? care to elaborate why you think this? 

they are very finely tuned and require constant maintenance thats called sailing any Grand Prix boat

Wings are logistically difficult, are difficult to raise, especially in heavy air, and they are expensive and time intensive to build and maintain. From what experience are you getting this from? Logistically moving an 70-100ft long monohull rig is a great deal harder than a wing in a 40ft container, What information are you getting this from? why are they hard? from shed to water was an hour in BDA by most teams. 

they are expensive and time intensive to build and maintain.as opposed to what? building mast, boom, spreaders, and main sails? all of which also require maintaining?

 The systems are complicated and aren't conducive to "Real Sailing" - what are we defining as REAL SAILING your real sailing or the 100's of people enjoying the trickle down effect of foiling technology. 

Docking procedures are difficult, as the boats require "Side slipping" to return to the dock. Docking the 45's and 50's was actually quite easy and they would and will sit on a mooring for days if needed

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55 minutes ago, agk470 said:

they require one crew just to launch them, and another tos ail them,?? care to elaborate why you think this? 

Because thats what it takes. GD and ETNZ have stated, it takes a large group of people to launch the boat, and a crane (which doesn't come cheap)

they are very finely tuned and require constant maintenance thats called sailing any Grand Prix boat

Nope. Its why we only see Americas Cup boats sailing in the Americas Cup, because they are highly optimised machines. Most Grand Prix boats are set up for a range of conditions, where teh AC boats are mostly optimised for a small window of performance, hence the reason Oracle lost, because they weren't optimised for the lower end like ETNZ were. 

Wings are logistically difficult, are difficult to raise, especially in heavy air, and they are expensive and time intensive to build and maintain. From what experience are you getting this from? Logistically moving an 70-100ft long monohull rig is a great deal harder than a wing in a 40ft container, What information are you getting this from? why are they hard? from shed to water was an hour in BDA by most teams. 

Wings are logistically difficult, because you can't hoist sails and then take them down at the end of the day. The wing is much harder to launch because it has to be raised at an optimal angle to the wind so that the flow doesn't attach to the wing and cause it to take off. With soft sail rigs, the mast can be stepped without sails, therefor is easier to handle. They also include a lot more parts, control systems, ribs, control arms, therefor are more fragile than conventional rigs.

they are expensive and time intensive to build and maintain.as opposed to what? building mast, boom, spreaders, and main sails? all of which also require maintaining?

No ribs, control systems, electronics and moving parts like Rigid wings.

 The systems are complicated and aren't conducive to "Real Sailing" - what are we defining as REAL SAILING your real sailing or the 100's of people enjoying the trickle down effect of foiling technology. 

Sailors hoisting sails, and grinding sails in, not pumping oil around a boat using X-Box controllers and auto pilot to get the boat around the course.

Docking procedures are difficult, as the boats require "Side slipping" to return to the dock. Docking the 45's and 50's was actually quite easy and they would and will sit on a mooring for days if needed.

Try telling that to the Americas Cup teams!! The 50's were a lot more difficult to dock because they could not be towed back to the dock. They had to be maneuvered by chase boats by a process called Side slipping. GD mentioned all these points when the protocol was announced. 

No Americas Cup Team would leave a highly tuned, finely optimised multi million dollar 50 foot catamaran on the mooring "For Days" They were not, and never were designed to sit for days on a mooring. Never heard anything more stupid!!

 

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1 hour ago, agk470 said:

I cant say if it will or will not happen but i have 100% i have had conversations about aspects of the racing and design with people working for the organisation. i Have personally asked Grant Simmer post Sydney to Hobart in Hobart and had confirmation that boards have been made and boats being built, doesn't mean it will happen but its rolling in the right direction, wont challenge the AC never will but it will be an awesome feat if it does happen with some bloody cool racing.

You do know that basically each team had 2 drivers yeah? lets look...

Oracle - as you said jimmy and Slingsby - jimmy is now out and Slingsby assumed in for the 50 and remember Kirby drove quite a bit also as did Andrew Campbell

Artemis - Outteridge assumed still with them, Checco still unsigned i think and don't forget Goodison spent a lot of time on the wood early on before they got Checco

France - Cammas  I would think Frank would jump at the chance to drive for any team as would Minoprio who also got some time on the wood

Japan - Barker signed as you said but Waterhouse is and would be more than capable of driving one as would Draper

BAR - Ainslie obviously will stay with his team, McMillan - still working for them but might jump to get a top seat, Paul Campbell -James, very comfortable on the wood.

Kiwi's - Burling I believe its been said he has signed with them and assume he would. Ashby - the guy is multihull royalty so why wouldn't he look at running his own team?

Now thats just the guys on the teams, What about other guys that are well and truely experienced enough outside that. Santi Lange, Yann Guichard, Arnaud Psarofaghis, Roman Hagara, Phill Roberts, thats just to name a small few currently racing foiling cats now and I'm sure that there are plenty that I've missed.

Quite sure theres enough driving talent there to fill as many teams as they want.

As far as I'm aware BAR havn't entered AC36 yet? strangely a team that signed the AC50 framework.. Might be more there with issues on contract disputes? just interesting that a huge team like that hasn't signed on yet or announced anything, And they are a team that values sustainability and advertising to keep sponsors happy so a foiling 50 world tour would do a huge amount to keep that side of the business happy, Granted I'm sure they will do the cup one way or another so might have to humour the idea to not break a contract

Your quite sure Slingsby will be with Oracle? for what reason? I'm leading to thinking he'd rather base in Aus and do that. 

All good points but I think that there is a lot of haters on what will be an amazing Circuit if it does in fact go ahead, Nothing should be taken away from the AC and to be honest nothing will take away from the AC, Its just another avenue that people can watch and get excited about our great sport. Not sure why the negativity. 

Anyways I hope it does get off the ground and we see some wicked boats ripping around at 40+ knots on TV's around the world.

Checco signed wth Luna Rossa. Ashby is signed with ETNZ. Lange, Guichard, Psarofaghis, Hagara, Phil Roberts, aren't big enough names to carry the series.

BAR are in AC36. The Framework is dead. 

So if Slingsby is with Australia, who's left with Oracle?

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https://www.sailingillustrated.com/single-post/2018/04/13/AC36-Ellisons-donation-of-container-facility-to-San-Franciscos-TISC-is-another-sign-that-Oracle-Team-USA-is-finished-with-the-Americas-Cup

TE shared this to FB yacht club

"As reported here and elsewhere, Mr Ellison and his top sailing lieutenant, Russell Coutts, (NZL), are said to be preparing a circuit in the AC50 foiling catamarans, although indications now are that it won’t happen this year."

 

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4 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Gee, very insightful. Fuck off clown

You're clearly a clueless fucking moron. Just try to compete against any of them, clarkey.

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"Simmer and Ainslies jobs are to win the Americas Cup, so thats what they're going to focus on doing. "

Actually their job is to deliver sponsor value. Winning would be a pretty good way to do that but it is far from the only one. Commercial sponsorship of sport would be dead in the water if value only accrued by winning. I don't think it is very difficult to imagine that sponsors who spent a lot of £££ on an AC50 might like to derive more value from that.

 

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

You're clearly a clueless fucking moron. Just try to compete against any of them, clarkey.

never said they weren't great sailors so like I said, Fuck off Clown!!

They are great sailors, but lets be honest, every sport has its stars, and the big events of the sport are built around or have a  strong emphasis on those stars. Football has Wayne Rooney, Lionel Messi, Christiano Ronaldo, David Beckham. Rugby has Richie McCaw, Dan Carter, Beauden Barrett, F1 has Lewis Hamilton, Kimi Raikkonen, Sebastien Vettel. The NBA has Lebron James, Kevin Durant, Steph Curry and Russell Westbrook. There are plenty of other great competitors in every one of those sports, but they are the stars, they are the names the sport is built around. Sailing has Ben Ainslie, Peter Burling, Blair Tuke, Jimmy Spithill, Dean Barker and Glenn Ashby. Those are the names the sport are built around. That takes nothing away from anything other great competitors have achieved, but without those big stars of those respective sports, the sports themselves would not be as popular as they are. There's no denying that.

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1 hour ago, dogwatch said:

"Simmer and Ainslies jobs are to win the Americas Cup, so thats what they're going to focus on doing. "

Actually their job is to deliver sponsor value. Winning would be a pretty good way to do that but it is far from the only one. Commercial sponsorship of sport would be dead in the water if value only accrued by winning. I don't think it is very difficult to imagine that sponsors who spent a lot of £££ on an AC50 might like to derive more value from that.

 

The sole purpose of Land Rover BAR is to win the Americas Cup. Everything else is secondary.

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Just now, sclarke said:

I never said they weren't great sailors! They are great sailors, but lets be honest, every sport has its stars, and the big events of the sport are built around or have a  strong emphasis on those stars. Football has Wayne Rooney, Lionel Messi, Christiano Ronaldo, David Beckham. Rugby has Richie McCaw, Dan Carter, Beauden Barrett, F1 has Lewis Hamilton, Kimi Raikkonen, Sebastien Vettel. There are plenty of other great competitors in every one of those sports, but they are the stars, they are the names the sport is built around. Sailing has Ben Ainslie, Peter Burling, Blair Tuke, Jimmy Spithill, Dean Barker and Glenn Ashby. Those are the names the sport are built around. That takes nothing away from anything other great competitors have achieved, but without those big stars of the sport, the sport itself would not be as popular as they are. There's no denying that.

+1

but don't forget that the sport's stars differ from place to place

Cammas is a huge thing in France, i doubt that many of the french would have known who Glen Ashby was before they won the cup, if even then

same goes for Italy and Bruni

or Brazil and Sheidt

hell, people in Australia know Nath and Goobs more than they know Glen Ashby

i think that the only person who is on your list that is pretty universal is Ainslie, just because of all the gold medals and being a sir and all hahaha

if Nathan Outteridge was in this new ac50 circuit it would draw more attention from Australia than if anyone else joined it

it's probably pretty obvious, but the list that you drew up is what a kiwi fan of the AC would be thinking, which is fairly different to what say, an Australian fan of the Olympics would think.

not having a go, just saying that bias set deep with everyone and it's impossible for one person to write a hard list of professional sailors who are the only ones that can draw global interest to an upcoming event, you've got to respect that your list may be true for kiwis, but different to many others.

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21 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

Not quite. Your memory seems to be fairly selective. By their own admission, they had the raw speed but the biggest gains came after they arrived in Bermuda and began mixing with the others, because sailing on their own didn't prepare them for sailing in close company with others. It's also easy to forget that ETNZ was the only boat to get it wrong during racing and capsize. Practising on your own only gets you so far. You can do things 1000 times on your own, but doing it with other boats around is different.

The best way to practise racing very fast boats is to race very fast boats. There aren't many opportunities to do so. I cannot see how it can be anything other than an advantage to do some racing in AC50's. It's not exactly going to be a huge distraction either. They won't be training for months and months. I think it would fit in very well with an AC campaign, just like lots of other events, such as Pete and Blair still sailing their 49er last time around. They showed you don't need to be 100% AC with no other sailing.

its gonna cost shit loads of money, and has nothing to do with the crazy jesus lizard that has to be mastered.

it's easy to remember the capsize, sailing a boat that had only one main in winds that were obviously out of range was gonna bite someone. it's easy to forget the races with bits of boats flying off, and NO top sailor unable to stay in the track as the boat was so out of envelope.

if any team does join the circus, it will just be for publicity to sponge up some $$.

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57 minutes ago, inebriated said:

+1

but don't forget that the sport's stars differ from place to place

Cammas is a huge thing in France, i doubt that many of the french would have known who Glen Ashby was before they won the cup, if even then

same goes for Italy and Bruni

or Brazil and Sheidt

hell, people in Australia know Nath and Goobs more than they know Glen Ashby

i think that the only person who is on your list that is pretty universal is Ainslie, just because of all the gold medals and being a sir and all hahaha

if Nathan Outteridge was in this new ac50 circuit it would draw more attention from Australia than if anyone else joined it

it's probably pretty obvious, but the list that you drew up is what a kiwi fan of the AC would be thinking, which is fairly different to what say, an Australian fan of the Olympics would think.

not having a go, just saying that bias set deep with everyone and it's impossible for one person to write a hard list of professional sailors who are the only ones that can draw global interest to an upcoming event, you've got to respect that your list may be true for kiwis, but different to many others.

Cammas is huge in France, and if this series was being sailed off shore in 90 foot Tri Marans, or even Volvo 70's, it might be worth investing in him to represent the new series. Unfortunately in AC50's he was clearly a long way behind the dominant teams.

Yann Guichard is exactly the same. He is well known and respected in France for what he has achieved with Spindrift Racing, but his foray into the ACWS was short lived and unsuccessful with Energy Team (France).

Bruni having been a part of Luna Rossa as well as Azzura in the 52 Super Series, as well as winning a Louis Vuitton Trophy regatta against none other than Emirates Team New Zealand in Americas Cup boats in 2009 gives him a more widely known profile in terms of the Americas Cup.

Outteridge and Jensen can also add their names to the list of big name stars of the sport, as can Slingsby, which is why it is difficult to see what may happen, especially if Outteridge, Jensen and Slingsby all decide to represent Australia. All 3 of those guys have already sailed AC50's in an Americas Cup, so if you put them in the same team, who in their right mind would want to race those guys? Especially if you're a new comer to the class? And what newcomer really has a chance against those guys in Americas Cup boats? 

Being good at your sport does not necessarily make you a star of the sport. Don't get me wrong, there are series out there that don't require stars to be successful, but they either don't get mainstream coverage, or they involve owner/ drivers. And unless you have a mid twenty year old fit, agile billionaire as an owner/ driver, IMO there aren't going to be many owners out there willing to pour millions into a campaign they can't be a part of. It would be sad to see a boat like the AC50 not getting the coverage it deserves, or watered down into some one design mediocre multihull it should not, and never was supposed to be. One design has exposed the flaws of the Volvo 65, and if the AC50's are watered down there will also be flaws exposed. They should be remembered for what they were, not a mediocre one design multihull.

Its the reason why the Sydney Hobart won't get rid of the 100 footers. Many have wondered why the 100 footers are still in the race, and that CYCA should eliminate the 100 footers, but they won't because the 100 footers are the stars of the race. Yes, there are many outstanding sailors in the Sydney Hobart, but the 100 footers are the attraction which is why they get the most coverage. 

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they require one crew just to launch them, and another tos ail them,?? care to elaborate why you think this? 

Because thats what it takes. GD and ETNZ have stated, it takes a large group of people to launch the boat, and a crane (which doesn't come cheap)

Launching is done with 8-12 staff and a crane operator, nothing saying that 6 of those cannot be sailors, they usually wernt but could be. yep crane plus operator is costly for sure. 

they are very finely tuned and require constant maintenance thats called sailing any Grand Prix boat

Nope. Its why we only see Americas Cup boats sailing in the Americas Cup, because they are highly optimised machines. Most Grand Prix boats are set up for a range of conditions, where teh AC boats are mostly optimised for a small window of performance, hence the reason Oracle lost, because they weren't optimised for the lower end like ETNZ were. so all those great teams in the GC, 72's, 52's, RC44's and plenty more grand prix series are not constantly maintained and finely tuned? your kidding right?

Wings are logistically difficult, are difficult to raise, especially in heavy air, and they are expensive and time intensive to build and maintain. From what experience are you getting this from? Logistically moving an 70-100ft long monohull rig is a great deal harder than a wing in a 40ft container, What information are you getting this from? why are they hard? from shed to water was an hour in BDA by most teams. 

Wings are logistically difficult, because you can't hoist sails and then take them down at the end of the day. The wing is much harder to launch because it has to be raised at an optimal angle to the wind so that the flow doesn't attach to the wing and cause it to take off. With soft sail rigs, the mast can be stepped without sails, therefor is easier to handle. They also include a lot more parts, control systems, ribs, control arms, therefor are more fragile than conventional rigs. wings went up and down every day for 3 years in BDA, wing took 6 people to launch, much like a conventional main assuming you have 2 or 4 on grinders 1 at the goose neck and 1 up the rig. Yep wings need a certain angle to launch for sure but no different to a conventional main needing yacht to be dead upwind to hoist. I can assure you stepping the rig on an AC50 is at least half the time of stepping any 65+ ft yacht. conventional rigs also contain control systems, spreaders, locks, electronics, shrouds, tracks, cars, etc and id have to say they are not that much more fragile. 

they are expensive and time intensive to build and maintain.as opposed to what? building mast, boom, spreaders, and main sails? all of which also require maintaining?

No ribs, control systems, electronics and moving parts like Rigid wings.no ribs(commonly called Frames) agreed, conventional rigs have control systems in them, I think your over thinking what was inside those wings, electronics on both rigs, moving parts agreed. 

 The systems are complicated and aren't conducive to "Real Sailing" - what are we defining as REAL SAILING your real sailing or the 100's of people enjoying the trickle down effect of foiling technology. 

Sailors hoisting sails, and grinding sails in, not pumping oil around a boat using X-Box controllers and auto pilot to get the boat around the course. I think it was only Team NZ that had a hydro wing sheet and an x-box controller. all teams were pumping oil yes and agreed putting up zeros would have been cool, but wing control was done by grinders and a winch on all but 1 boat,

Docking procedures are difficult, as the boats require "Side slipping" to return to the dock. Docking the 45's and 50's was actually quite easy and they would and will sit on a mooring for days if needed.

Try telling that to the Americas Cup teams!! The 50's were a lot more difficult to dock because they could not be towed back to the dock. They had to be maneuvered by chase boats by a process called Side slipping. GD mentioned all these points when the protocol was announced. They were towed by means of side tow or long bow tow, yes. I heard no issues apart from ben about docking the boats, a chase boat on either side in the wind or just 1 and had no issues and very safe.

No Americas Cup Team would leave a highly tuned, finely optimised multi million dollar 50 foot catamaran on the mooring "For Days" They were not, and never were designed to sit for days on a mooring. Never heard anything more stupid!!  you have done well there calling team France(who often left there race boat on mooring) stupid, shows your knowledge of AC35 well. they were and had to be designed to go on moorings as were the rules every day of the LV challenge and the Match itself. yes they came out at night because they could but as the world series they could have stayed without issue. 

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wish i could find the vidy of Bar just about taking out their base with the wing...

maybe being a newbie ya never saw that action

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8 minutes ago, barfy said:

wish i could find the vidy of Bar just about taking out their base with the wing...

maybe being a newbie ya never saw that action

caused by a broken strop i believe, The wing dropped and flew forward as it created flow, came to rest on the building, hardly going to take a steel and concrete building out with a 600kg carbon wing.

Artemis 50 wing lasted after it dropped when their test boat failed, go and drop a conventional mast under full load and let me know how it lasts. Go and capsize most mono's and lets see how the rig lasts, NZ and oracle had capsizes with race wings and both used them again. 

Not sure why a newbie makes any difference maybe you were busy typing behind the keyboard being a hero and missed that. :D

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Just now, agk470 said:

caused by a broken strop i believe, The wing dropped and flew forward as it created flow, came to rest on the building, hardly going to take a steel and concrete building out with a 600kg carbon wing.

Artemis 50 wing lasted after it dropped when their test boat failed, go and drop a conventional mast under full load and let me know how it lasts. Go and capsize most mono's and lets see how the rig lasts, NZ and oracle had capsizes with race wings and both used them again. 

Not sure why a newbie makes any difference maybe you were busy typing behind the keyboard being a hero and missed that. :D

or maybe you're a sock

i haven't seen stingray around for a bit

or doug lord either...

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1 hour ago, agk470 said:

caused by a broken strop i believe, The wing dropped and flew forward as it created flow, came to rest on the building, hardly going to take a steel and concrete building out with a 600kg carbon wing.

Artemis 50 wing lasted after it dropped when their test boat failed, go and drop a conventional mast under full load and let me know how it lasts. Go and capsize most mono's and lets see how the rig lasts, NZ and oracle had capsizes with race wings and both used them again. 

Not sure why a newbie makes any difference maybe you were busy typing behind the keyboard being a hero and missed that. :D

na,

i think it was blowing 25+..

outta control for a sailboat.

i searched for a while for the vidy..

anyone can bring it up please? was good for a chuckle

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7 hours ago, agk470 said:

caused by a broken strop i believe, The wing dropped and flew forward as it created flow, came to rest on the building, hardly going to take a steel and concrete building out with a 600kg carbon wing.

Artemis 50 wing lasted after it dropped when their test boat failed, go and drop a conventional mast under full load and let me know how it lasts. Go and capsize most mono's and lets see how the rig lasts, NZ and oracle had capsizes with race wings and both used them again. 

Not sure why a newbie makes any difference maybe you were busy typing behind the keyboard being a hero and missed that. :D

ETNZ had to cannibalize their second wing for parts to repair the damaged wing. Had they damaged the wing again the day after they capsized, they would've been screwed. The never got their A-wing back until just before the Cup match.

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9 hours ago, agk470 said:

they require one crew just to launch them, and another tos ail them,?? care to elaborate why you think this? 

Because thats what it takes. GD and ETNZ have stated, it takes a large group of people to launch the boat, and a crane (which doesn't come cheap)

Launching is done with 8-12 staff and a crane operator, nothing saying that 6 of those cannot be sailors, they usually wernt but could be. yep crane plus operator is costly for sure. 

they are very finely tuned and require constant maintenance thats called sailing any Grand Prix boat

Nope. Its why we only see Americas Cup boats sailing in the Americas Cup, because they are highly optimised machines. Most Grand Prix boats are set up for a range of conditions, where teh AC boats are mostly optimised for a small window of performance, hence the reason Oracle lost, because they weren't optimised for the lower end like ETNZ were. so all those great teams in the GC, 72's, 52's, RC44's and plenty more grand prix series are not constantly maintained and finely tuned? your kidding right?

Wings are logistically difficult, are difficult to raise, especially in heavy air, and they are expensive and time intensive to build and maintain. From what experience are you getting this from? Logistically moving an 70-100ft long monohull rig is a great deal harder than a wing in a 40ft container, What information are you getting this from? why are they hard? from shed to water was an hour in BDA by most teams. 

Wings are logistically difficult, because you can't hoist sails and then take them down at the end of the day. The wing is much harder to launch because it has to be raised at an optimal angle to the wind so that the flow doesn't attach to the wing and cause it to take off. With soft sail rigs, the mast can be stepped without sails, therefor is easier to handle. They also include a lot more parts, control systems, ribs, control arms, therefor are more fragile than conventional rigs. wings went up and down every day for 3 years in BDA, wing took 6 people to launch, much like a conventional main assuming you have 2 or 4 on grinders 1 at the goose neck and 1 up the rig. Yep wings need a certain angle to launch for sure but no different to a conventional main needing yacht to be dead upwind to hoist. I can assure you stepping the rig on an AC50 is at least half the time of stepping any 65+ ft yacht. conventional rigs also contain control systems, spreaders, locks, electronics, shrouds, tracks, cars, etc and id have to say they are not that much more fragile. 

they are expensive and time intensive to build and maintain.as opposed to what? building mast, boom, spreaders, and main sails? all of which also require maintaining?

No ribs, control systems, electronics and moving parts like Rigid wings.no ribs(commonly called Frames) agreed, conventional rigs have control systems in them, I think your over thinking what was inside those wings, electronics on both rigs, moving parts agreed. 

 The systems are complicated and aren't conducive to "Real Sailing" - what are we defining as REAL SAILING your real sailing or the 100's of people enjoying the trickle down effect of foiling technology. 

Sailors hoisting sails, and grinding sails in, not pumping oil around a boat using X-Box controllers and auto pilot to get the boat around the course. I think it was only Team NZ that had a hydro wing sheet and an x-box controller. all teams were pumping oil yes and agreed putting up zeros would have been cool, but wing control was done by grinders and a winch on all but 1 boat,

Docking procedures are difficult, as the boats require "Side slipping" to return to the dock. Docking the 45's and 50's was actually quite easy and they would and will sit on a mooring for days if needed.

Try telling that to the Americas Cup teams!! The 50's were a lot more difficult to dock because they could not be towed back to the dock. They had to be maneuvered by chase boats by a process called Side slipping. GD mentioned all these points when the protocol was announced. They were towed by means of side tow or long bow tow, yes. I heard no issues apart from ben about docking the boats, a chase boat on either side in the wind or just 1 and had no issues and very safe.

No Americas Cup Team would leave a highly tuned, finely optimised multi million dollar 50 foot catamaran on the mooring "For Days" They were not, and never were designed to sit for days on a mooring. Never heard anything more stupid!!  you have done well there calling team France(who often left there race boat on mooring) stupid, shows your knowledge of AC35 well. they were and had to be designed to go on moorings as were the rules every day of the LV challenge and the Match itself. yes they came out at night because they could but as the world series they could have stayed without issue. 

You have no idea.

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What part there is no idea? I’m curious where you get all your information from AC35? Were you there? 

And yes they took their E1-1 and E1-2 from the second wing to replace damaged parts both of which were parts that teams were changing from wing to wing aawell. Agreed damage the day after and they would have been in trouble. 

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15 minutes ago, agk470 said:

What part there is no idea? I’m curious where you get all your information from AC35? Were you there? 

And yes they took their E1-1 and E1-2 from the second wing to replace damaged parts both of which were parts that teams were changing from wing to wing aawell. Agreed damage the day after and they would have been in trouble. 

You don't have to be there, there is enough information out there as long as you know where to look. ETNZ had two wings, they always did, and both were ready to step at any time. They damaged the wing the morning of the capsize, and had return to the dock and replace it with their A-wing, which is what they had on when they capsized. 

What I'm saying is, the information is there, if you do the research, you will realise what you are saying is incorrect. 

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^ Everything AGK470 said was spot on. The boats fit into containers. The wings are no more complex/expensive than a high tech conventional rig, never mind a double surface fully battened 'sail' attached to a D mast with a controllable crane at the masthead. The AC50s sat happily at moorings for extended periods. Wings went up and down on a daily basis for three years with only a couple of minor incidents. All of the boats except one controlled their wings with a winch and a sheet. ALL high level racing boats require constant maintenance and baby sitting.

If the AC50 series happens, it will be amazing. They are amazing boats, the guys I know that sailed and worked on them loved them, and they are fucking fast - with tweaks, I think we could see them crack 50 kts - and we know they provide close racing and dial ups on the race course.

The class would also provide a great opportunity for teams to bring multiple sailors up to speed on both large scale foiling, and racing in the 40-50 kt range. All the sailing experience gained by teams in AC35 will certainly be valuable to their AC36 campaigns, so it logically follows that more experience would add additional value. For example, if I was the NYYC team, I would jump at the chance to get as many sailors as much TOW on AC50s as possible.

 

 

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4 hours ago, sclarke said:

 

good times, but i'm thinking of the one where they lost control of the boat and sail while lifting it to their base in Portsmouth, got the boat detached, then lost control of the sail almost taking the base out.

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+ 1 Surfsailor,

Not only that, but previous criticism of AC50 may disapear with the new version of the boat.

it could be the fastest sailboat, at a fair price and with easy controls.

Can't wait to see the new version !

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5 hours ago, sclarke said:

they require one crew just to launch them, and another tos ail them,?? care to elaborate why you think this? 

Because thats what it takes. GD and ETNZ have stated, it takes a large group of people to launch the boat, and a crane (which doesn't come cheap)

More evidence you are either clueless or trolling. No team employed people simply to launch the boats, other than possibly the crane driver, although in the 2 teams i know of, this person also did other jobs in the maintenance department. W hen they had the ACWS, each team was limited to the number of support staff they could take so the sailors had to do most of the launching jobs.The only real additional cost was the crane. Look the cost of either leasing a crane for that period, or buy it and sell it afterwards. It is insignificant compared with the overall budget.

6 hours ago, sclarke said:

ETNZ had to cannibalize their second wing for parts to repair the damaged wing. Had they damaged the wing again the day after they capsized, they would've been screwed. The never got their A-wing back until just before the Cup match.

Why is that different from a normal rig. In previous cups there were limits on the number of masts and teams did break masts. The difference with a wing is that it could be repaired, just like ETNZ did. If they had broken a conventional mast, it would not have been repairable in the timescales, leaving a team even more vulnerable. Consider TNZ in 2003. They ended up down to just one mast and there was always the thought that mast might fail as well. In the AC, there had been times before when a broken mast meant end of campaign.

Contrary to what a few on here want to believe because they read it somewhere, the overall cost of the wings was lower than the cost of a full campaign with conventional rigs. The difference was that wings have a very high up front cost, but once made, they are relatively cheap to keep going. With a conventional rig, there are soft components, called sails, and these have finite life spans. Given the number of hours sailing that was done, the cost of new sails would have been huge. On top of that, you need a team of specialist sailmakers to look after a repair the sails. With the wings, that could be done by the regular boat builders.

There are only 2 reasons why we don't have wings for the next edition. The first is that it was part of the deal with Bertelli. He did not want them. The other reason is that they felt they needed to be able to tow the boats out to the race course and you cannot tow distances with a wing mast. But they had a real problem. Soft sails are nowhere near as efficient and are far harder to depower without adding lots of drag. The ability to depower the wing, or even get righting moment from it by using reverse camber at the top, meant that the new boats were at a serious disadvantage compared with the AC50's. To counter this, we now see this soft wing concept, which will add significant expense. 

The trickle down argument for the soft wing is very weak. There is no application for it in one design racing. Why would anybody want to specify such an expensive solution for a one design? For any other type of racing, where handicaps are involved, if it has an advantage, the handicap system will need to be changed to take that into account and if the handicap system works, why would you spend so much more for something that gives you no advantage. The only people who will benefit might be those who sail very high performance foiling boats, which is a very small number.

The other argument for a soft rig is that it is closer to what is seen in conventional yachting and therefore people can relate to it. I call BS on that. People who already sail understood wings, while those who didn't sail never seemed to have an issue with them. I remember the reaction to the AC72's and the "comeback"from non sailors. It was the first time I can ever remember sailing catching the attention of my non sailing friends who were so impressed by the boats. I cannot remember a single person even questioning the wings, compared with soft sails.

Sometimes, you need to be able to read beyond the press releases and not believe everything they say.

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2 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

The trickle down argument for the soft wing is very weak. There is no application for it in one design racing. Why would anybody want to specify such an expensive solution for a one design? For any other type of racing, where handicaps are involved, if it has an advantage, the handicap system will need to be changed to take that into account and if the handicap system works, why would you spend so much more for something that gives you no advantage. The only people who will benefit might be those who sail very high performance foiling boats, which is a very small number.

That is generic argumentation against any kind of innovation. Strike out the word "soft" and exactly the same applies.

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19 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

That is generic argumentation against any kind of innovation. Strike out the word "soft" and exactly the same applies.

I am not sure I can agree. Let's start with the easy comment, "Strike out the word "soft" ". Did anybody claim that had trickle down implications for sailing? If they did, I would have said that was BS as well. We already had wings. We learnt nothing new from having them in the AC and there hasn't been an increase in their use.

There have been cases of innovation in the AC that has trickled down. A lot of modern boat fittings such as blocks and winches have their current design due to things learnt in the AC The most obvious thing has been film sails, such as 3DL, which offer far more than just a speed gain. 

The point I was trying to make is that you cannot use the "trickle down" card as often as some seem to use it. This soft wing seem to me to be a classic case of when we need to be highly suspicious of any trickle down claims.  Before we begin to discuss sailing benefits, we know that a soft wing rig is going to cost something approaching double that of a conventional rig. To start with, you need the equivalent of 2 mainsails. The masts will be significantly more expensive because of size and the double track. Overall, we are looking at a very expensive option and for that to be something that will trickle down, it needs to come with some pretty big benefits. It's also not trickle down, because it is an iteration of development already going on. Despite the OTT press releases which claimed it was a "breakthrough sail design", all they have done is taken an existing concept and developed it for their own particular use. I call it "trickle up"!

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We don't yet how new  will be the soft rig so we don't know if it is trickle up, and we don't know how efficient and easy to use, so if it will trickle down. Which we can hope.

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On 4/15/2018 at 6:38 AM, sclarke said:

I thought nobody involved in the America's Cup would be doing any sailing outside the America's Cup? Yet here is Barker competing in an event outside of the Americas Cup?

Not to mention the multiple teams competing in the TP52 series or Extreme Sailing Series? Did Glenn Ashby not partake in the SuperFoiler?

If you are part of a team in the AC and you do not yet have a 75 foiling monohull to sail on can you not see the advantage of taking part in a series on a 40knot foiling boat?

22 hours ago, sclarke said:

never said they weren't great sailors so like I said, Fuck off Clown!!

They are great sailors, but lets be honest, every sport has its stars, and the big events of the sport are built around or have a  strong emphasis on those stars. Football has Wayne Rooney, Lionel Messi, Christiano Ronaldo, David Beckham. Rugby has Richie McCaw, Dan Carter, Beauden Barrett, F1 has Lewis Hamilton, Kimi Raikkonen, Sebastien Vettel. The NBA has Lebron James, Kevin Durant, Steph Curry and Russell Westbrook. There are plenty of other great competitors in every one of those sports, but they are the stars, they are the names the sport is built around. Sailing has Ben Ainslie, Peter Burling, Blair Tuke, Jimmy Spithill, Dean Barker and Glenn Ashby. Those are the names the sport are built around. That takes nothing away from anything other great competitors have achieved, but without those big stars of those respective sports, the sports themselves would not be as popular as they are. There's no denying that.

Burling and Tuke are only big names now. They weren't big names before they won.

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i think that we should stop talking about big names in sailing

no-one except for maybe, maybe Ainslie has a big name globally. every other big sailing "star" may be well known withing their country or within sailing communities but you'd be retarded to really think that the general public outside NZ knows of Burling and Tuke, or outside of Australia and maybe Sweden knowing Outteridge and Jensen.

even within the sailing world "big names" are completely reliant on where you live and what sailing you like.

 

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2 hours ago, kawalski said:

I thought nobody involved in the America's Cup would be doing any sailing outside the America's Cup? Yet here is Barker competing in an event outside of the Americas Cup?

Thats right, but for who?? for an AMERICAS CUP TEAM, American Magic! The TP52's can be used as surrogate yachts as per the protocol, hence the reason BAR and Luna Rossa are competing. They are also the closest thing to the monohulls being used in the AC which is why the teams are using them as test/ training boats.

Not to mention the multiple teams competing in the TP52 series or Extreme Sailing Series? Did Glenn Ashby not partake in the SuperFoiler?

Yes he did. And by the way, no one ever said none of the AC sailors would be unable to compete in any other class.

If you are part of a team in the AC and you do not yet have a 75 foiling monohull to sail on can you not see the advantage of taking part in a series on a 40knot foiling boat?

None of the teams have 75 foot foiling monohull yet. Infact there is only one "Official challenger for Americas up 36" as of now.

Burling and Tuke are only big names now. They weren't big names before they won.

Before they won what? The Americas Cup, or the 24 49er regattas before that? It is irrelevant whether they were more famous before or after they won. In most sports, competitors don't become stars until they actually win. Regardless they are the biggest stars in the sport now because they are the best. Dennis Connor was a star because he was the best, Russell Coutts was a star in his time because he was the best. Jimmy Spithill was a star because he was the best. Burling and Tuke are the best.

 

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41 minutes ago, inebriated said:

i think that we should stop talking about big names in sailing

no-one except for maybe, maybe Ainslie has a big name globally. every other big sailing "star" may be well known withing their country or within sailing communities but you'd be retarded to really think that the general public outside NZ knows of Burling and Tuke, or outside of Australia and maybe Sweden knowing Outteridge and Jensen.

even within the sailing world "big names" are completely reliant on where you live and what sailing you like.

 

You're probably right. But then again, the general public don't really care about sailing as a sport either. Most see it as a "Rich mans sport" or a "Billionaires pissing contest" but within the sport of sailing there are definitely names that the sport has built its reputation around. Peter Blake is one. Dennis Connor is another. No matter where you go, generally people will know the names Peter Blake, and/ or Dennis Connor. For every generation there is a Peter Blake and/ or a Dennis Connor. This generation is definitely Pete Burling and Blair Tuke. Especially given that those two guys have the chance to become a grand slam winner.

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10 hours ago, barfy said:

good times, but i'm thinking of the one where they lost control of the boat and sail while lifting it to their base in Portsmouth, got the boat detached, then lost control of the sail almost taking the base out.

This one?? 

IMG_0737.JPG

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Just now, agk470 said:

I thought you said BAR are doing AC36? so no announcement means they arn't now?

"official"

they haven't notified of the challenge with the right paperwork that we know of

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:D:D 

Im sure they will be entering just wonder why they havnt as of yet. i still think Russell has them by the balls. but lucky they have the biggest budget. poor bastards. 

 

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36 minutes ago, agk470 said:

This one?? 

IMG_0737.JPG

yea.

some private vidy surfaced, was scary seeing so many ground crew running around trying to tame a wing in 25kt, turbulence behind the shed.

edit: gotta date? would make the search a bit easier

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1 hour ago, inebriated said:

even within the sailing world "big names" are completely reliant on where you live and what sailing you like.

Fair point, it would be enough to post the question in various parts of SA. You will get totally different answers depending on the thread in which the question is asked.

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The GC32 Championship entry list doesn't look so bad. Lots of AC has-beens/will-bes (again):

 

Entry list
 

 

Team

Owner/skipper

Nat

Helmsman

1

Alinghi

Ernesto Bertarelli

SUI

Ernesto Bertarelli

2

Argo

Jason Carroll

USA

Jason Carroll

3

.film Racing

Simon Delzoppo

AUS

Simon Delzoppo

4

Frank Racing

Simon Hull

NZL

Simon Hull

5

Land Rover BAR Academy 

Will Alloway 

GBR

Leigh McMillan

6

NORAUTO

Franck Cammas

FRA

Franck Cammas

7

Oman Air

Oman Sail

OMA

Phil Robertson

8

Realteam

Esteban Garcia

SUI

Jérôme Clerc

9

Red Bull Sailing Team

Hans-Peter Steinacher/Roman Hagara

AUT

Chris Draper

10

SAP Extreme Sailing Team

Jes Gram-Hansen/Rasmus Køstner

DEN

Adam Minoprio

11

Team México - 2018

Erik Brockmann

MEX

Tom Phipps

12

Team Tilt

Alex Schneiter

SUI

Sebastien Schneiter

13

Zoulou

Erik Maris

FRA

Erik Maris

14

TBA

 

 

 

15

TBA

 

 

 

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Real match racing starts Wednesday here: https://www.thecongressionalcup.com/ live streamed from the Belmont Pier.

Line-up:

Eric Monnin

Chris Steele

Harry Price

Ian Williams

Joachim Aschenbrenner

Sam Gilmour

Scott Dickson

Taylor Canfield

Dean Barker

Johnie Berntsson

 

Barker and Berntsson were 1-2 in the Ficker Cup this past weekend.

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15 hours ago, sclarke said:

You're probably right. But then again, the general public don't really care about sailing as a sport either. Most see it as a "Rich mans sport" or a "Billionaires pissing contest" but within the sport of sailing there are definitely names that the sport has built its reputation around. Peter Blake is one. Dennis Connor is another. No matter where you go, generally people will know the names Peter Blake, and/ or Dennis Connor. For every generation there is a Peter Blake and/ or a Dennis Connor. This generation is definitely Pete Burling and Blair Tuke. Especially given that those two guys have the chance to become a grand slam winner.

This generation is definitely not Burling and Tuke. Give them 10 years and maybe. They are the current hot property. Take off your Team NZ blinkers and get real.

Don't get me wrong. They are both obviously phenomenal sailors. But they have a while to go before you can start comparing them to Peter Blake or Dennis Connor.

You know who is far closer to that mark?

1. Russell

2. Jimmy

3. Ben

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45 minutes ago, kawalski said:

This generation is definitely not Burling and Tuke. Give them 10 years and maybe. They are the current hot property. Take off your Team NZ blinkers and get real.

Don't get me wrong. They are both obviously phenomenal sailors. But they have a while to go before you can start comparing them to Peter Blake or Dennis Connor.

You know who is far closer to that mark?

1. Russell

2. Jimmy

3. Ben

Not any more! Russell was the 90's and early 2000's. Jimmy was early 2000's to 2010. Ainslie was 2010 to 2017. Burling and Tuke are the poster boys for the sport. Pete is a multiple time sailor of the year winner. Between Burling and Tuke, they are one of the most successful 49er crews ever! 

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If you think there are any names in sailing that would draw an audience, then you are delusional. I can imagine the conversation now

Non sailor to another non sailor "We must watch the new sailing series coverage because (insert famous sailor here) is in it" It doesn't matter if that sailor is Ben Ainslie, Pete Burling or anybody else for that matter. Individual sailors will never be why people will watch a series on TV.

1 hour ago, sclarke said:

Burling and Tuke are the poster boys for the sport. Pete is a multiple time sailor of the year winner. Between Burling and Tuke, they are one of the most successful 49er crews ever!

They are great sailors and they might be poster boys in NZ, but they are way off being the poster boys for the sport world wide. In terms of Olympic sailing, they are way off legend status Try winning 4 Olympic golds, like 2 people have done. One of those people also won the AC and is a multiple sailor of the year winner, 4 times to Pete's twice. Got to love that you write Ainslie off as only being 2010-2017. You do know he won his first Olympic medal in 1996, campaigned until 2012 while also sailing the AC  and that he will be back next time. You seem to be the only person writing him off. You also seem to think it is relevant that that they are "one of the most successful in a class. Well, you are right about others being as successful but let's be clear. they dominated a class for 1 Olympic cycle. That really isn't anything that hasn't been seen before. Come back when they have dominated a class for, say, 3 Olympic cycles.

 

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3 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

If you think there are any names in sailing that would draw an audience, then you are delusional. I can imagine the conversation now

Non sailor to another non sailor "We must watch the new sailing series coverage because (insert famous sailor here) is in it" It doesn't matter if that sailor is Ben Ainslie, Pete Burling or anybody else for that matter. Individual sailors will never be why people will watch a series on TV.

They are great sailors and they might be poster boys in NZ, but they are way off being the poster boys for the sport world wide. In terms of Olympic sailing, they are way off legend status Try winning 4 Olympic golds, like 2 people have done. One of those people also won the AC and is a multiple sailor of the year winner, 4 times to Pete's twice. Got to love that you write Ainslie off as only being 2010-2017. You do know he won his first Olympic medal in 1996, campaigned until 2012 while also sailing the AC  and that he will be back next time. You seem to be the only person writing him off. You also seem to think it is relevant that that they are "one of the most successful in a class. Well, you are right about others being as successful but let's be clear. they dominated a class for 1 Olympic cycle. That really isn't anything that hasn't been seen before. Come back when they have dominated a class for, say, 3 Olympic cycles.

 

No one has written Ben Ainslie off, so quit being so precious!

At the conclusion of the Americas Cup, Coutts, Spithill and Ainslie all said Peter Burling is the worlds best sailor.

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1 hour ago, sclarke said:

No one has written Ben Ainslie off, so quit being so precious!

At the conclusion of the Americas Cup, Coutts, Spithill and Ainslie all said Peter Burling is the worlds best sailor.

He couldn’t hold Dame Ellen MacArthur’s sports bra :) 

Of course neither could any of us :(

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Don't confuse sailing with AC.

Its not just the AC. Even at club level, its a very equipment intensive sport. Boats, no matter what class are expensive for your average family/ parent to buy/ lease and maintain. Sailing lessons aren't cheap either. Don't get me wrong, I love the sport, but its not just the AC that is seen as being "A rich mans sport"

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6 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

If you think there are any names in sailing that would draw an audience, then you are delusional. I can imagine the conversation now

Non sailor to another non sailor "We must watch the new sailing series coverage because (insert famous sailor here) is in it" It doesn't matter if that sailor is Ben Ainslie, Pete Burling or anybody else for that matter. Individual sailors will never be why people will watch a series on TV.

They are great sailors and they might be poster boys in NZ, but they are way off being the poster boys for the sport world wide. In terms of Olympic sailing, they are way off legend status Try winning 4 Olympic golds, like 2 people have done. One of those people also won the AC and is a multiple sailor of the year winner, 4 times to Pete's twice. Got to love that you write Ainslie off as only being 2010-2017. You do know he won his first Olympic medal in 1996, campaigned until 2012 while also sailing the AC  and that he will be back next time. You seem to be the only person writing him off. You also seem to think it is relevant that that they are "one of the most successful in a class. Well, you are right about others being as successful but let's be clear. they dominated a class for 1 Olympic cycle. That really isn't anything that hasn't been seen before. Come back when they have dominated a class for, say, 3 Olympic cycles.

 

 

ben-ainslie.jpeg

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this sailing has evolved into a high tech game. Luddites will go nowhere. Not that RC was, but pleeese, Jimmy's camo wheel?

PB designed and 3d printed all of his controls. 49'er mastery, and dev class engineer. BA doesn't hold a candle to this guy. RC may have come close, but we live in the era of disruptive technology, and only a young genius engineer sailor can ride this wave.

"The amount of technological advancement that occurred in the year 2000 occurs every 1 hour and 6 minutes in 2013, and will occur every 30 seconds in 2020."

link

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3 hours ago, barfy said:

this sailing has evolved into a high tech game. Luddites will go nowhere. Not that RC was, but pleeese, Jimmy's camo wheel?

PB designed and 3d printed all of his controls. 49'er mastery, and dev class engineer. BA doesn't hold a candle to this guy. RC may have come close, but we live in the era of disruptive technology, and only a young genius engineer sailor can ride this wave.

"The amount of technological advancement that occurred in the year 2000 occurs every 1 hour and 6 minutes in 2013, and will occur every 30 seconds in 2020."

link

did peter really design and print all his controls himself?

I met an electronics engineer from ETNZ at the superfoilers and he raved on about how great PB was to work with, so i can vouch for the dev class engineer.

while PB would and has proved to be a whiz when it comes to helping design and develop a boat, i think that BA still would be the top pure sailor, you only need to look at his achievements in any one design class. no one can come close to him looking at the ac45f's, the finn and first off the laser.

the only guy that could really get close to PB on other teams would be Nathan Outteridge IMO, i reckon artemis weren't ready to go too radical after their last campaign, but if they came into this next cycle, ETNZ would need to watch out...

 

 

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I'm not all that plugged in these days, but a good friend out west just told me his option was just not renewed.  

Can't tell you names, but it means there won't be an AC50 series until mid-late 2019 at the earliest.

 

 

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A curious bit from a Gtran of http://m.larena.it/territori/garda-baldo/louis-vuitton-cup-più-che-un-sogno-per-la-fraglia-vela-1.6435910 dated Apr 16

... At the end of the ceremony, President Testa announced that Malcesine could host a stage of the Louis Vuitton Cup, an international alternative circuit to the America's Cup, with the best sailors in the world: «Malcesine could be part of a program that involves Barcelona, Dubai , San Francisco. A delegation headed by the American magnate Lerry Hellison, who has already been a guest in Malcesine during the RC44 circuit, has made contact with the Municipality and the Fraglia, "added Testa. "Prestigious sponsors are also involved. This is already a further confirmation of the prestige Malcesine has in the sailing world.

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