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Offshore 1

Larry's AC50 Circus

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1 hour ago, WetHog said:

Why?  From what I've read the AC50's will be faster than the JC75's and more maneuverable.  5-8 AC50's ripping around a course would be pretty impressive to see.  They won't overshadow anything AC related but they won't be forgotten either.

WetHog  :ph34r:

Correct, they won’t overshadow the AC in the sense of massive crowds, broadcasts, attention, history, all of that.

But for those of us who love the extreme edge of course-racer boatspeed that Ellison’s AC era ultimately produced, it will be terrific if these boats reach yet another level of performance. The suggestion it is being delayed into ‘19 may be a sign of even bigger ambitions on that front than the original notion.

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More time for them to push their BS Alternative America's Cup narrative on other gullible 'pimp my town' mayors I guess. Might even work - unless it's the General Dr involved again :lol:

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5 hours ago, sclarke said:

The AC75's are scheduled for launch next year...2019. No doubt, at least one will be launched in that time. Once the 75's are launched, and the cycle is under way, the 50's will be forgotten. 

Wow, you really are a real hater ....it's comical, clearly obsessed ... and desperate for it not to succeed aren't you?
 

 

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

Correct, they won’t overshadow the AC in the sense of massive crowds, broadcasts, attention, history, all of that.

They won't overshadow the AC in the sense of history, but they could about massive crowds.

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49 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

They won't overshadow the AC in the sense of history, but they could about massive crowds.

The biggest ACWS crowd ever was in Naples, an event LR won, it was pretty cool.

This new series could also attract local interest in nice locales on beautiful weekends but: Crowds are likely not a big factor behind why the AC50 NextGen series is getting funded by infinite-money LE and whoever else. It has to be all about a passion for pressing the limits in sailing performance.

Those seeing ‘spite’ as motive are surely small-minded spiteful people themselves.

$B’s don’t waste their fun-money on silly shit like malice. They do it mostly just for fun - and good on them no matter the yachting style, J’s or otherwise. These boats will very likely be extremely hot!

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2 hours ago, MischiefBDA said:

Wow, you really are a real hater ....it's comical, clearly obsessed ... and desperate for it not to succeed aren't you?
 

 

Not a Hater, but you're right, I don't want it to succeed, but my reasons are absolutely logical, unlike the arguments for the series.

Because if it goes ahead:

1) its a series born of spite

2) Because its piggybacking the Americas Cup, using Americas Cup technology, and boats built for the express purpose of competing in the Americas Cup, so should remain an Americas Cup Class.

3) The AC50's should not be "watered down" to become mediocre one design racers. No other class has been able to successfully make a box rule class yacht better/ faster while at the same time making it one design.

4) This a personal one: because all of the hate ETNZ/ LR got from the "Haters" regarding "not toeing the company line" and being "Argumentative" and "Going against the majority" The one thing they did do, despite all the attempts by Oracle and its organising Committee to weaken the NZ Team, is continue to contest the AC and win it to get what they wanted. Now the shoe is on the other foot, and after all the (Hollow) talk of "Sustainability" and signing a Framework that would ensure "Sustainability" instead of challenging to win it back, it's ok to lose, quit, and take your ball and go home? and instead throw a few hundred million at an alternative series using Americas Cup Class Boats? 

5) Because Foiling Catamarans aren't a new, and novel thing any more. There are many foiling catamarans/ Multihull series currently being competed in. Even the Olympics are foiling now.

6) You say Billionaires aren't stupid...well it seems they are if they decide to fund this series, because there is no return on their investment. 

 

 

 

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What a crock of shit

1 minute ago, sclarke said:

Not a Hater Yes you are  but you're right, I don't want it to succeed, but my reasons are absolutely logical, No they aren't unlike the arguments for the series.

Because if it goes ahead:

1) its a series born of spite Wrong.You really aren't up on sailing history. A series like this was first proposed by Coutts back in 2007. Now he has the opportunity to do it. Artemis is also a major mover in the series because they love the boats. Why would TT be acting out of spite?

2) Because its piggybacking the Americas Cup, using Americas Cup technology, and boats built for the express purpose of competing in the Americas Cup, so should remain an Americas Cup Class. You expect people to simply pack up old AC boats and never use them again? That's stupid. Old AC boats have been used after their time in the AC since the dawn of time. Why is this different? Also, the technology is not owned by the AC. Teams created it. Oracle created the rule.

3) The AC50's should not be "watered down" to become mediocre one design racers. No other class has been able to successfully make a box rule class yacht better/ faster while at the same time making it one design. It's not being watered down. Exactly the opposite, from what I have heard. They might be one design, but they are being turbo charged. They will be significantly faster than the fastest at the AC.

4) This a personal one: because all of the hate ETNZ/ LR got from the "Haters" regarding "not toeing the company line" and being "Argumentative" and "Going against the majority" The one thing they did do, despite all the attempts by Oracle and its organising Committee to weaken the NZ Team, is continue to contest the AC and win it to get what they wanted. Now the shoe is on the other foot, it's ok to lose, quit, and take your ball and go home? You seem to think that once a wealthy owner has been involved with the AC, that's all they should do. There is life after the AC. This series is so different from anything to do with the AC. The AC is a design competition. The fastest boat wins. It is that simple. The challenge is how a team works together to build a faster boat than everybody else. this series is about finding out which team are the best sailors by pitting them against each other in equal boats.

5) Because Foiling Catamarans aren't a new, and novel thing any more. There are many foiling catamarans/ Multihull series currently being competed in. Even the Olympics are foiling now. So what? There is no other foiling cat that can sail around a course on foils 100% of the time. The olympic foiling cat is a dog. Even the best foiling series at the moment, the GC32's, look boring and pedestrian compared with the AC50's. If you really think that the AC50 series would be like any other racing, it proves how clueless you are.

6) You say Billionaires aren't stupid...well it seems they are if they decide to fund this series, because there is no return on their investment. Possibly the single most stupid statement from you. What return do they get from any series? Nobody has ever got a return out of the AC. Larry has spent over $500m on the cup. How much do you think TT spent on Artemsi over 2 cycles? Whjere was the return for them, or for most other super rich AC backers? You could argue that the best a team has ever done is break even, as in the case of teams that are and need to be fully sponsored such as ETNZ. There is no return on investment from the AC, or any other type of sailing.

The costs of this series is going to be small change for the wealthy guys owning the teams. It will be a fraction of the cost of an AC campaign. It gives a purpose for boats that would otherwise sit around doing nothing and it gives jobs to sailors who have become personal friends of some of the team owners.For an owner what's not to like? Relatively affordable racing in the fastest, most spectacular racing boats in existence with a group of sailors you consider friends.

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37 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

What a crock of shit

The costs of this series is going to be small change for the wealthy guys owning the teams. It will be a fraction of the cost of an AC campaign. It gives a purpose for boats that would otherwise sit around doing nothing and it gives jobs to sailors who have become personal friends of some of the team owners.For an owner what's not to like? Relatively affordable racing in the fastest, most spectacular racing boats in existence with a group of sailors you consider friends.

1) Torbjorn Tornquist has had a history of disappointing challenges in the AC, the first was a disaster, and the second was a disappointing challenge with a history of under achieving.

TT may "love the boats" but he's never been able to master any of them, his AC72, AC45F and the AC50 campaigns all proved to be disappointing, under achieving campaigns.

2) Do I expect people to simply pack up old AC boats? Yes, its the nature of the Americas Cup. You win, you decide what happens next, Its whats happened with every cycle in recent history, OR win the cup, so you don't need to pack them up! Everyone else has done it, so they should too. All they have to do is WIN so that they don't need to pack them up! Just as ETNZ have done! 

Turbo charged? According to who? I'll believe it when I see it, because no class has been able to turbo charge any One design concept. Turbo charge often means Big budget.

"This series is so different from anything to do with the AC" Except they're using AC Class Boats (Albeit modified).

"this series is about finding out which team are the best sailors by pitting them against each other in equal boats" So is the GC32, the MC32, the TP52, and the RC44. There is one team who is "the best" in an AC50 Class, and they have the silverware to prove it.

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17 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Turbo charged? According to who? I'll believe it when I see it, because no class has been able to turbo charge any One design concept. Turbo charge often means Big budget.

I seem to remember they did pretty well turbo charging the AC45's. There are other examples of classes turbo charging one designs. The Tornado did a pretty good job of it. Nacra have done it. The Flying Phantom is a turbo charged F18. The list is long. Stop talking shit!

It's also pretty easy to make the AC50's go faster, for 2 reasons. The first is that if you are making them all the same, you don't need to worry about the original AC50 rule for the foils. That makes a huge difference.  Then there will be an automated flight control system so that the sailors don't need to try to match the numbers like ETNZ did. Instead of giving a target for the settings, they will simply happen. The other thing is that they now know what works and what doesn't. If you think they cannot unpackage what we saw on the ETNZ boat and improve on it, particularly with the removal of rule limitations, it is yet more evidence you don't understand boats.

As for budget, what is needed to make these boats faster (turbo charged) is different foils and foil systems. The biggest cost of new foils is in the R&D and then making the tooling. Spread that over the fleet and it becomes significantly cheaper. Same with the control system, although now they have a pretty good idea of what they are doing. 

You make it sound hard and expensive. If you spend the same amount as an AC team on foil and foil control development, spread that over say 5 teams. This doies not need a full AC design team working for the whole AC cycle. It is a small subset team (say 4-5) working for 6-9 months and then it is over to the boatbuilders. It really isn't a big bill and it is more than affordable for these guys to end up with the fastest raceboats. Even if they each threw $5m into the pot ($25m in total) which is pocket change when you are that wealthy, you would give you a bigger development budget for those items than any AC team had last time.

 

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5 hours ago, sclarke said:

To be successful, the AC50's need to have capitalised on the momentum of AC35. Once the 36th cycle is underway, the momentum from Bermuda will have ceased or will be very minimal. The AC72's were IMO a lot more spectacular than the AC50's and just as fast as it turned out,

in only one way, the top speed. try racing the two boats, see what happens... even downwind when they were both foiling, the ac50 would beat the 72, top speed means shit, especially when it is only hit once in a blue moon, the only way that the two boats could be competitive is a downwind drag race so don't say that they were similar speeds.

but once the 34th cycle ended, the AC72's were all but forgotten, and were considered "Dinosaurs" once the AC50's were launched.

because the ac50's were faster and brought more intense racing

The 90 footers of AC33 were amazing when they were launched and raced in Valencia, but again, once the 72's were launched they were all but forgotten as well.

because they were also replaced by faster boats that were more manoeuvrable and brought better racing

 If the 90 footers, and the AC72's, as spectacular as they were (and they were absolutely spectacular) are forgotten so easily, a small 50 foot catamaran will suffer the same fate, especially given the fact that they are apparently going to be modified to one design.

i disagree, while the 75 will be great to watch you'd have rocks in your head to think that they will be as manoeuvrable or as fast around a course. there is a slim chance that they will hit faster top speeds than any of the cats, but it will probably be in higher winds and will probably be hit in training when the relatively heavy boats build some momentum and actually get going. i think while sailing fans may enjoy a more original design that may not be as fast as before, the general public just wants speed, close action and foiling manoeuvres which is something that the ac50 will bring to the table. in no way will this series make a dent in the ac though, the ESS did nothing to hurt the AC when it went foiling and i think that this will be very similar

Foiling is no longer a new concept, it is no longer novel to see foiling cats zipping around a course, and there are already series that display foiling catamarans, so the 50's need to add something different. 

 

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4 hours ago, sclarke said:

Not a Hater, but you're right, I don't want it to succeed, but my reasons are absolutely logical, unlike the arguments for the series.

Because if it goes ahead:

1) its a series born of spite

 

 

 

 

Maybe you're right. You certainly are full of spite.

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5 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

Maybe you're right. You certainly are full of spite.

Oh no, not this crap again. Fuck off clown!!

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I can understand the position that the AC50 series will launch into obscurity, though I am not sure I agree.

I can understand the position that an AC50 series might detract from attention on AC36, though I definitely don't agree.

I don't see how anyone can possibly believe both of those things, though it seems a few do.

 

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no problem, they probly can't call it an AC50 series cause it has fuck all to do with AC. 

Airy Hellisons Fuck ya America Cunts 50 ft (almost) World series of the World.

AHAC50

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, inebriated said:

i disagree, while the 75 will be great to watch you'd have rocks in your head to think that they will be as manoeuvrable or as fast around a course. there is a slim chance that they will hit faster top speeds than any of the cats, but it will probably be in higher winds and will probably be hit in training when the relatively heavy boats build some momentum and actually get going.

And you got rocks in your head if you think you know anything about the new AC boats or their top speeds. Only a few folk have looked at the sims,

and you aren't one of them.

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Just now, barfy said:

And you got rocks in your head if you think you know anything about the new AC boats or their top speeds. Only a few folk have looked at the sims,

and you aren't one of them.

do you think that they will be faster around a course?

or even faster in a straight line

sure, they will have more RM with the leeward foil further outboard and the windward foil wheighted (although the ac50 could neg the windward ridder [however this can be discounted due to the added drag ])

similar aero from what we can imagine

heavier boat to get up onto the foils so it will take longer to get them ripping (unless whomper foils are used which shaves off top speed)

i think it is safe to say that foil tacks will be tricky at best, with probably consistent foil jibes, which amplifies the issue of a boat that is harder to get foiling because it will need to happen multiple times upwind if foil tacks are not acheived

the main will not be as versatile in de-powering and flattening out as the wingsail is, so probably not as efficient at the higher ends, or just shit at getting the boat foiling

sure, i haven't seen the sims yet, but from what we can look at, the only thing that i can seem going for this boat is the RM

so would you agree that it seems unlikley that these boats will be faster around a course??

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3 hours ago, barfy said:

And you got rocks in your head if you think you know anything about the new AC boats or their top speeds. Only a few folk have looked at the sims,

and you aren't one of them.

I know 2 people who has seen and been running sims. Both believe that in certain conditions the AC75's will be quicker than the AC50's, downwind in terms of headline speed, but they think the 75's will be no quicker VMG downwind. They do not believe they will be faster around a course, although that depends on where the course is set because the 75's have to be able to sail in waves which the 50's never did.In most conditions, the 75's will be slower than the 50's.

2 hours ago, inebriated said:

i think it is safe to say that foil tacks will be tricky at best

Foiling tacks will happen, but far higher up the wind range than on the 50. What makes it really tricky is not having as much control over the soft wing as they had over the hard wing. The soft wing adds significantly more drag in tacks.

 

2 hours ago, inebriated said:

(although the ac50 could neg the windward ridder [however this can be discounted due to the added drag ])

Not sure what you are saying here. on the 50's, rudder delta to get extra righting moment was used by all. They only had a 3 degree range, but that is enough to gain a reasonable and worthwhile amount. I am surprised that we haven't seen it on any beach cats like the A's. They also gained righting moment from the top of the wing by inverting it. This could only be done in certain conditions, but it made a big difference as well.

The biggest challenge the 75's have is the soft wing. It cannot do the things that the hard wings did on the 50's. The ability to make the bottom fuller so they could depower up top or even invert it was something very special and which cannot be done on a soft wing.

You don't need to see the sims to have a pretty good idea of the key differences between the AC50 and 75. What people sometimes seem to miss is the similarities. Once foiling, the 75 might as well be a cat because that is how the numbers add up. What ETNZ have created is a foiling monohull that sails like a cat. For me, it's the ultimate irony. While people celebrate the return to monohulls, we have something very different.

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On 4/18/2018 at 8:55 AM, WetHog said:

Not sure Clean is necessarily wrong.  To do a series like this the right way a mid to late 2019 start is appropriate.  Mid 2019 would make it summer in the northern hemisphere.  The sweet spot calendar wise for a series like this.

Having said that, until 5+ AC50's take the starting gun in race 1 of this series its all wishful thinking.  I"ll believe it when I see it.

WetHog  :ph34r:

This thing could find audiences and teams - all Larry has to do is spend the $15-20 million every year to pay for it, plus subsidies for the (nearly all) teams who can't afford to pay for it.  Hell, Oracle had to subsidize teams in the big AC - there will obviously be more of that in this Louis Vuitton Cup, especially since they will be barred from using the words "America's Cup' in any commercial communication or marketing at all.

 With that budget, a good team could make it work, could grow it, could make it as successful as the Extremes or even more so.  As long as that media/marketing/PR money keeps rolling in, it will continue to draw moderate crowds online and in person, and would be considered a good success in the sport.

The second Larry gets angry at how much he has to spend (which is generally around 13 months after he decides to spend it, based on the past two AC cycles and his constant harping on funds), the series is a memory.  

Any sponsor suckered into paying big bucks to be part of it is going to walk away a year or two later with a bleeding asshole and probably leave the sport.  

Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.

 

 

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2 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

This thing could find audiences and teams - all Larry has to do is spend the $15-20 million every year to pay for it, plus subsidies for the (nearly all) teams who can't afford to pay for it.  Hell, Oracle had to subsidize teams in the big AC - there will obviously be more of that in this Louis Vuitton Cup, especially since they will be barred from using the words "America's Cup' in any commercial communication or marketing at all.

 With that budget, a good team could make it work, could grow it, could make it as successful as the Extremes or even more so.  As long as that media/marketing/PR money keeps rolling in, it will continue to draw moderate crowds online and in person, and would be considered a good success in the sport.

The second Larry gets angry at how much he has to spend (which is generally around 13 months after he decides to spend it, based on the past two AC cycles and his constant harping on funds), the series is a memory.  

Any sponsor suckered into paying big bucks to be part of it is going to walk away a year or two later with a bleeding asshole and probably leave the sport.  

Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.

 

 

Yeah except that according to the Italian press that is what they are doing.

And will no doubt keep doing, until they get a cease and desist letter from RNZYS - if anyone can be bothered.

Spite Cup - Fuck Yeah.....

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The longer they wait, the less likely it becomes, especially with 2020/ 2021 being so busy with Olympics and the Americas Cup. They seem to be relying on the Olympic Sailors to carry it. If they don't do it next year, which looks highly unlikely, its not happening.

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1 hour ago, nav said:

Yeah except that according to the Italian press that is what they are doing.

And will no doubt keep doing, until they get a cease and desist letter from RNZYS - if anyone can be bothered.

Spite Cup - Fuck Yeah.....

link to italian press saying that Larry is using the AC trademark?

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I don't think this event has any thing of "spite", it was a sport event organized as a long term business opportunity with all possibilities under control, even if the winning team did not use the same boat.

 

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

link to italian press saying that Larry is using the AC trademark?

Moving the goal posts a bit there....but here you go

http://m.larena.it/territori/garda-baldo/louis-vuitton-cup-più-che-un-sogno-per-la-fraglia-vela-1.6435910

If you want to know precisely what was said and not said and how the "AC Alternative" is being promoted you could put your journalistic hat on and ask President Testa in the little town on Lake Garda. Or anyone else involved....might be an interesting story in there somewhere?

You could also find out who holds the rights to footage from AC35 and the use of the AC50 designation - good on ya ;)

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Wait, aren't ETNZ the current holders of the Louis Vuitton Cup? They haven't been defeated for it since San Francisco. Are they expected to relinquish it? Awkward situation for any future winner, given the last team who won it were never defeated for it.

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1 hour ago, sclarke said:

Wait, aren't ETNZ the current holders of the Louis Vuitton Cup? They haven't been defeated for it since San Francisco. Are they expected to relinquish it? Awkward situation for any future winner, given the last team who won it were never defeated for it.

I doubt it will be awkward for anyone. You're just projecting again. Professional sailors aren't going to give this a second thought you petty little fuck.

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4 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

I doubt it will be awkward for anyone. You're just projecting again. Professional sailors aren't going to give this a second thought you petty little fuck.

Sure, what ever you say. You should stop lying to yourself and change your name to c**ksucker because that's what you are. 

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1 hour ago, sclarke said:

 Awkward situation for any future winner, given the last team who won it were never defeated for it.

It would be even more akward to win a cup from a team who had been defeated, isn't it ? :rolleyes:

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1 minute ago, Tornado-Cat said:

It would be even more akward to win a cup from a team who had been defeated, isn't it ? :rolleyes:

Wouldn't be awkward at all, if you were the team who defeated them to win that cup. 

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2 hours ago, sclarke said:

Wait, aren't ETNZ the current holders of the Louis Vuitton Cup? They haven't been defeated for it since San Francisco. Are they expected to relinquish it? Awkward situation for any future winner, given the last team who won it were never defeated for it.

If I recall correctly, RNZYS/ETNZ own at least 3 Louis Vuitton trophies: Louis Vuitton Pacific Trophy, Louis Vuitton Trophy, and Louis Vuitton Cup.

They'll just knock up the Louis Vuitton Sour Losers' Consolation Cup

5ad90bc94fe35_consolationcup.jpg.27de59f2dbd93f8241003a0ad5e1c76a.jpg

To go with their AC35 badges..

5ad90bf688857_Thanksforshowingup.jpg.59cbdaad1b003ff7aa70022651cd84d0.jpg

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1 hour ago, sclarke said:

So Ian Burns isn't involved in any AC50 series design team. This thing looking less and less likely.

https://www.ausleisure.com.au/news/ian-burns-sets-goal-for-ais-to-be-world-leader-in-sport-technology/

The designs could be largely complete by now since the builds at Core are already underway, it’d be no surprise if Fresh has added Design input.

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4 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

The designs could be largely complete by now since the builds at Core are already underway, it’d be no surprise if Fresh has added Design input.

Are they underway? Surely he'd stick around to make sure his designs actually work? or are built properly? Or if they need alterations he could oversee them? I don't buy that all the design work is done, so thats it for him, the builds are underway so he can go. You'd think Larry would retain him until the whole job is complete?

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17 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Are they underway? Surely he'd stick around to make sure his designs actually work? or are built properly? Or if they need alterations he could oversee them? I don't buy that all the design work is done, so thats it for him, the builds are underway so he can go. You'd think Larry would retain him until the whole job is complete?

Surely you’re right. The designs won’t work, nothing Core builds ever gets built properly, alterations are inevitable, the whole design job is incomplete, and the fastest boats ever built will simply never happen.

:D

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6 hours ago, sclarke said:

Wait, aren't ETNZ the current holders of the Louis Vuitton Cup? They haven't been defeated for it since San Francisco. Are they expected to relinquish it? Awkward situation for any future winner, given the last team who won it were never defeated for it.

The LV Cup isn't a challenge cup so it doesn't matter. What you are trying to say makes no sense. You seem to be claiming that if the last winner of a regatta doesn't defend their title and doesn't return the trophy, whoever wins isn't really the winner.

In case you were unaware, Louis Vuitton own the rights to the name Louis Vuitton Cup. They can use it for whatever they want. It's worth remembering that most people associate the Louis Vuitton Cup with top class, high quality sailing events. Without knowing what the event is, which would most sailors recognise as being more prestigious? The Louis Vuitton Cup or the Prada Cup.

Louis Vuitton lends a high degree of credibility and prestige to the event. While I don't think the owners are putting together the series out of spite, I am pretty sure Louis Vuitton is sponsoring it out of spite, seeing how poorly they have been treated by ETNZ. When ETNZ needed them, LV was there to sponsor the LV Pacific Series, an event that kept ETNZ in business. I bet they are delighted at being cut out of this round of the AC. It's worth remembering that a lot of people, including Grant Dalton, were outraged at how Ernesto Bertarelli treated LV. I guess what goes around, comes around.

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

Surely you’re right. The designs won’t work, nothing Core builds ever gets built properly, alterations are inevitable, the whole design job is incomplete, and the fastest boats ever built will simply never happen.

:D

I'm saying the AC50's are built on the edge, and most if not ALL of the key designers involved in both cycles (San Francisco and Bermuda) involving Multihulls are either working on AC36 or doing other things. The Majority of AC Sailing teams are committed to the next cycle. Any design team would've had to have started either as soon as ETNZ crossed the finish line, or very shortly after, as even though from the outside, the boats may have looked very similar, the control systems and board shapes would have been vastly different. The control systems, as well as boards would have to have been re-designed, tested and validated in under a year. Boats rounded up,  purchase agreements/ leases signed, designers put on retainers, and deals signed for shipping each boat and accompanying containers shipped around the world. An impressive feat considering most of the AC teams were either taking time off, thinking about doing the next Americas Cup, or signing contracts for the Volvo Ocean Race. I mean, come on, it really doesn't have much going for it anymore. But hey, you can always hope. 

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22 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

The LV Cup isn't a challenge cup so it doesn't matter. What you are trying to say makes no sense. You seem to be claiming that if the last winner of a regatta doesn't defend their title and doesn't return the trophy, whoever wins isn't really the winner.

In case you were unaware, Louis Vuitton own the rights to the name Louis Vuitton Cup. They can use it for whatever they want. It's worth remembering that most people associate the Louis Vuitton Cup with top class, high quality sailing events. No, most people associate Louis Vuitton with the Americas Cup. Without knowing what the event is, which would most sailors recognise as being more prestigious? The Louis Vuitton Cup or the Prada Cup. The Americas Cup. Any challenger trophy whether it be the LV Cup, or the Prada Cup, is a stepping stone to the main prize. 

Louis Vuitton lends a high degree of credibility and prestige to the event. And yet, when they sided with GD and ETNZ, most were trashing them and wanted them gone, because Red Bull represented the new Extreme vision for the AC, and LV represented the "Old Rich Boys Club" now they represent "prestige" haha While I don't think the owners are putting together the series out of spite, I am pretty sure Louis Vuitton is sponsoring it out of spite, seeing how poorly they have been treated by ETNZ. How do we know ETNZ have treated them badly? As far as I know, it was LV who decided it didn't make sense from a business standpoint, as Prada (a business Competitor) played a more important role as organisers of the Challenger Series. When ETNZ needed them, LV was there to sponsor the LV Pacific Series, an event that kept ETNZ in business. And an event that kept competitors interested while Oracle were busy excluding the challengers in court. I bet they are delighted at being cut out of this round of the AC. I bet they're not! It's worth remembering that a lot of people, including Grant Dalton, were outraged at how Ernesto Bertarelli treated LV. I remember Ellison being outraged at Bertarelli also, and I also remember Ellison doing all the things he was outraged at Bertarelli for doing. It seems they've both suffered the same fate, and are now on the outside looking in. While Dalton and Bertelli are now calling the shots. I guess what goes around, comes around.

 

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3 minutes ago, sclarke said:

The Majority of AC Sailing teams are committed to the next cycle.

Not very good at Maths, are you. There were 5 teams last time around. 2 are going again. 2 out of 5 is not the majority. Even if you say that LR is an AC sailing team, which it wasn't last time, that makes 3 out of 6 which is still not a majority.

 

6 minutes ago, sclarke said:

I'm saying the AC50's are built on the edge, and most if not ALL of the key designers involved in both cycles (San Francisco and Bermuda) involving Multihulls are either working on AC36 or doing other things

You are right. Some are doing other things, including the design of new foils and systems for the AC50 series.

 

20 minutes ago, sclarke said:

And yet, when they sided with GD and ETNZ, most were trashing them and wanted them gone, because Red Bull represented the new Extreme vision for the AC, and LV represented the "Old Rich Boys Club" now they represent "prestige" haha 

That is completely made up. Most attacked Bertarelli for his treatment of Louis Vuitton. Everybody was siding with LV and their argument that all Bertarelli was doing was cheaping the AC. Later, everybody was pleased to see LV back in San Fran and Bermuda.

 

24 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Without knowing what the event is, which would most sailors recognise as being more prestigious? The Louis Vuitton Cup or the Prada Cup. The Americas Cup. Any challenger trophy whether it be the LV Cup, or the Prada Cup, is a stepping stone to the main prize. 

I see you cannot answer the question. It was not about the AC. It was about the perceived prestige of the LV Cup vs the Prada Cup. You avoided the question because you know the answer and don't like it.

26 minutes ago, sclarke said:

How do we know ETNZ have treated them badly? As far as I know, it was LV who decided it didn't make sense from a business standpoint, as Prada (a business Competitor) played a more important role as organisers of the Challenger Series.

Shows you know nothing. LV had previously sponsored when Prada was the CoR, so that was not the reason. LV wasn't even given the chance to bid for it. That was part of the deal between ETNZ and Bertelli. Dalton even said that they didn't need to look past Prada as a sponsor because they were totally in tune with the direction ETNZ wanted to take the cup. That was a slap in the face for LV who had bailed ETNZ out when they needed it with sponsorship for what became the LV Pacific Series.

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1 hour ago, A Class Sailor said:

Not very good at Maths, are you. There were 5 teams last time around. 2 are going again. 2 out of 5 is not the majority. Even if you say that LR is an AC sailing team, which it wasn't last time, that makes 3 out of 6 which is still not a majority.

2 are going again (BAR and ETNZ), 3 for all intents and purposes are dead (Oracle, Softbank Team Japan and Groupama Team France), and one is still on the fence (Artemis). So that makes 2 of 3 teams still operational going again, so the majority of 3 is 2. so my maths is spot on.

You are right. Some are doing other things, including the design of new foils and systems for the AC50 series.

Are they? Then you have the scoop on the world. Believe it when (If) it happens.

That is completely made up. Most attacked Bertarelli for his treatment of Louis Vuitton. Everybody was siding with LV and their argument that all Bertarelli was doing was cheaping the AC. Later, everybody was pleased to see LV back in San Fran and Bermuda.

They were? The weren't many nice words (and there still aren't) towards Bruno Trouble, who at the time was the representative for LV and helped create and organise the LV Cup. after he had a few "Choice words" for Oracle and Golden Gate Yacht club.

http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2015/04/03/bruno-trouble-this-is-definitely-not-the-americas-cup/

I see you cannot answer the question. It was not about the AC. It was about the perceived prestige of the LV Cup vs the Prada Cup. You avoided the question because you know the answer and don't like it.

The "perceived prestige" you mean like the "Perceived prestige" of the Louis Vuitton Playoff series Trophy (or what ever that monstrosity was called)

Shows you know nothing. LV had previously sponsored when Prada was the CoR, so that was not the reason. LV wasn't even given the chance to bid for it. That was part of the deal between ETNZ and Bertelli. Dalton even said that they didn't need to look past Prada as a sponsor because they were totally in tune with the direction ETNZ wanted to take the cup. That was a slap in the face for LV who had bailed ETNZ out when they needed it with sponsorship for what became the LV Pacific Series.

"A slap in the face" Don't be so dramatic! Its naming rights only. Louis Vuitton was reduced to mere sponsors of the Americas Cup in Bermuda, which is probably where they lost interest in the Americas Cup. They never got an opportunity to bid in Bermuda either, due to Red Bull becoming a major player due to their interest in sponsoring "Extreme sports" which is what the AC was attempting to become. It was only later that Coutts let them become a sponsor of the event, which means theyno longer had an organisation/ operational role in Bermuda, something they grew "frustrated" with, so as a "sponsor" ETNZ clearly had another option in Prada (who is also a competitor to Louis Vuitton) its a business decision, and also what happens when you make a deal with someone (concessions/ conditions) Louis Vuitton I'm sure understand this. Bruno Trouble as a former representative of LV has had nothing but good words for Dalton and ETNZ.

It was Coutts and his ACEA who reduced the role of LV in the Americas Cup from an operational role, to a sponsors role, to make way for Red Bull, so if you're going to blame anyone, blame ACEA and Russell Coutts.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, sclarke said:

The Majority of AC Sailing teams are committed to the next cycle.

2 are going again (BAR and ETNZ), 3 for all intents and purposes are dead (Oracle, Softbank Team Japan and Groupama Team France), and one is still on the fence (Artemis). So that makes 2 of 3 teams still operational going again, so the majority of 3 is 2. so my maths is spot on.

I begin to think you are just trolling.

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7 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I begin to think you are just trolling.

Why? What about what I said is not true? telling the truth is not "Trolling"

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12 hours ago, sclarke said:

I'm saying the AC50's are built on the edge, and most if not ALL of the key designers involved in both cycles (San Francisco and Bermuda) involving Multihulls are either working on AC36 or doing other things. Most if not all? Do you know their names? Just wondering where this info on designers for the 3 teams competing comes fromThe Majority of AC Sailing teams are committed to the next cycle. Of the 6 teams in BDA 1 is committed to the next cup. That’s not a majority. Any design team would've had to have started either as soon as ETNZ crossed the finish line, or very shortly after, as even though from the outside, the boats may have looked very similar, the control systems and board shapes would have been vastly different.correct.  The control systems, as well as boards would have to have been re-designed, which they have been tested and validated in under a year. Boats rounded up,  purchase agreements/ leases signed, why would this have to happen strait away. You don’t need a boat to do a design, the drawings and known components from the one design aspect we’re already a known constant. designers put on retainers,? Why on retainers?  and deals signed for shipping each boat and accompanying containers shipped around the world. An impressive feat considering most of the AC teams were either taking time off, thinking about doing the next Americas Cup, or signing contracts for the Volvo Ocean Race. I mean, come on, it really doesn't have much going for it anymore. But hey, you can always hope. 

 

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6 hours ago, agk470 said:

 

Simmer and Holroyd (Oracle and Softbank Team Japan) have gone to BAR, Bernasconi and team, Guillame Verdier, as well as the Luna Rossa design team and Martin Fischer are involved with the Defender/ CoR respectively, Ian Burns (Oracle) has taken a job in a technology/ high performance role with Australian Sport, Botin has signed on with American Magic, so really, who is left?

Of the 6 teams, 2 are committed to the next cup, the rest are either not operational or on the fence, so that is a majority because you can no longer count teams who are non existent.

You all say they have been designed and are in build. Are they? you know this for sure?

You don't need a boat, but you do need something to test and validate any concepts. If everything is completely done using drawings and simulation software, you would think the design team, whomever they may be, would stick around until its actually been built?

Why retainers? What are they going to live on? Are you saying that they've been working for almost a year without pay? Also what stops Americas Cup teams from poaching them for their own campaigns? Somethings keeping them there, if indeed they are there, and don't tell me "because they think the boats are cool" that doesn't wash. These are Americas Cup designers, highly skilled and highly sought after, they don't work for free, not when they can be put on sizeable salaries in the AC.

 

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^ The entire rest of the OR, JPN, FRA and Artemis design teams. Also, mathematically speaking, 2 out of 6 = 33.33% - you don't get to randomly subtract 3 from 6 just because it fits your narrative to do so.

The whole point of the AC50s - including downsizing them from 62' - was to create sustainable, ultra high tech racing, in arguably the fastest sailboats on the planet. I would think they'd be better off outside the aegis of the AC, with all of it's politics and limited schedule. They are unique, and still fresh - they've only had a single regatta so far - and as has been noted above, there is nothing else on the water remotely at that scale that is 100% foiling around a race course including tacks. Rather than looking at a series as 'competition' to the AC, I see it as complementary in the sense that it creates a deeper pool of talent for future ACs, in a format that will allow new potential sailing superstars to develop their game in boats where the outcome is not mostly dictated by design decisions made months or years before the event.

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17 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Simmer and Holroyd (Oracle and Softbank Team Japan) have gone to BAR, Bernasconi and team, Guillame Verdier, as well as the Luna Rossa design team and Martin Fischer are involved with the Defender/ CoR respectively, Ian Burns (Oracle) has taken a job in a technology/ high performance role with Australian Sport, Botin has signed on with American Magic, so really, who is left?

More crap. Simmer isn't a designer and most of the rest aren't foil designers. The top foil designer at the moment has his own company in Spain and is designing foils for a wide range of customers. There are also others who are more than capable of designing foils for AC50's who would be free to do so. Who else? You seem to have missed the Artemis design team and with Artemis being one of the main movers behind the AC50 series, maybe they have been involved. 

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25 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

^ The entire rest of the OR, JPN, FRA and Artemis design teams. Also, mathematically speaking, 2 out of 6 = 33.33% - you don't get to randomly subtract 3 from 6 just because it fits your narrative to do so.

There is no OR, JPN or FRA Design teams, they are no longer operational, therefor, they don't exist. They don't count. There is no such thing as Oracle Team USA, Softbank Team Japan or Groupama Team France anymore. So they can be discounted.

The whole point of the AC50s - including downsizing them from 62' - was to create sustainable, ultra high tech racing, in arguably the fastest sailboats on the planet. I would think they'd be better off outside the aegis of the AC, then they need to not use AC boats with all of it's politics and limited schedule. They are unique, and still fresh - they've only had a single regatta so far - and as has been noted above, there is nothing else on the water remotely at that scale that is 100% foiling around a race course including tacks. Rather than looking at a series as 'competition' to the AC, as long as they use AC Boats, I see it as complementary in the sense that it creates a deeper pool of talent for future ACs, in a format that will allow new potential sailing superstars to develop their game in boats where the outcome is not mostly dictated by design decisions made months or years before the event. The GC32 and ESS.

There are plenty of regattas that exist for this very purpose. The World Match Racing Circuit is a perfect example. The Congressional Cup is being sailed right now, and has seen some of the greatest Match Racing seen in a long time!

 

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13 minutes ago, sclarke said:

There is no OR, JPN or FRA Design teams, they are no longer operational, therefor, they don't exist. They don't count. There is no such thing as Oracle Team USA, Softbank Team Japan or Groupama Team France anymore. So they can be discounted.

So what's your 'theory' - that all the designers, engineers and software developers that worked on those teams vanished in a puff of lavender smoke?

LOL

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18 hours ago, sclarke said:

Why? What about what I said is not true? telling the truth is not "Trolling"

In your previous post you were talking of "AC team", in the next one of "still operational going again teams" and your conclusion is that :"so the majority of 3 is 2. so my maths is spot on".

However,  even by modifying your definitions to make you right, you are wrong, because with your new definitions 100% of the AC teams are IN.  :)

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3 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

In your previous post you were talking of "AC team", in the next one of "still operational going again teams" and your conclusion is that :"so the majority of 3 is 2. so my maths is spot on".

However,  even by modifying your definitions to make you right, you are wrong, because with your new definitions 100% of the AC teams are IN.  :)

But they're not. Artemis Racing is still operational,as they are still racing on the RC44 Circuit as the Artemis Racing Team, they even have a Youth team, yet they have not in any way committed to an AC campaign. BAR and ETNZ (Obviously) have, so that makes 2 from 3, so again, my maths is spot on.

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4 hours ago, surfsailor said:

So what's your 'theory' - that all the designers, engineers and software developers that worked on those teams vanished in a puff of lavender smoke?

LOL

My theory is, this AC50 series is, as Americans like to say... "A nothing burger" however this talk of an AC50 series will continue until the AC75's are launched when at such time, the world, as it always has, will have moved on to the new Americas Cup Class boats which will capture the attention of the sailing community. The quiet period in between cups always brings a tendency for people who enjoyed the previous Cup to want to see it continue. During the V5 period, everyone wanted the racing to continue after the Cup had finished, during the AC72 period, people wanted it even more because they were cool boats, now the AC world has gone quiet, and people want to see the AC50's again. It happens all the time, the AC goes quiet so minds start wandering, "what if this happens", and "I want this to happen", but once the cycle starts, boats are launched and teams start building up, that talk stops and the attention goes back to the Americas Cup. I don't blame you guys, the AC50's were very cool boats, but they have had their time. They belong in Americas Cup history, and thats where they should stay, unless a Team who wins the Americas Cup decides to bring them back.

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9 minutes ago, sclarke said:

But they're not. Artemis Racing is still operational,as they are still racing on the RC44 Circuit as the Artemis Racing Team, they even have a Youth team, yet they have not in any way committed to an AC campaign. BAR and ETNZ (Obviously) have, so that makes 2 from 3, so again, my maths is spot on.

Another swing, another miss, you did say that Artemis was not in but on the fence, so the other ones represent 100%, I am just trying to find some logic to your posts :)

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8 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Another swing, another miss, you did say that Artemis was not in but on the fence, so the other ones represent 100%, I am just trying to find some logic to your posts :)

No I said "2 of 3 were committed (ETNZ and BAR) and one was on the Fence (Artemis Racing)" so the majority of 3 is 2. The other guy said 2 of 3 is 100% and I have no idea how he worked that out.

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