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Larry's AC50 Circus

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11 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

We all know that, what they did with GGYC was not correct and I hoped a challenger went to the court but none did it, end of the story.

Now, do you think the NYYC (or any other challenger) could bring them to the court in order because the protocol does asks for more than what is requested by the Deed to enter as a challenger ?

None of the Challengers had to go to court, because the top 2 challengers were better than the defender anyway and could win on the water where it matters most.

No one wants to see anyone back in court, therefor, definitions of what a yacht club actually are were added to the protocol, because as you said "what they did with GGYC was not correct" (See what I did there, I QUOTED you)

Those definitions were added to prevent the same, or a similar situation happening again which as you say "was not correct". 

The protocol is Deed compliant, the fact that they added clarity to it to prevent incorrect situations arising again surely serves to better the event for all involved, as opposed to not defining what a yacht club is, and leaving the door open for more incorrect situations to happen in future.

We all saw what happened when this happened with the Nationality rule and those who questioned it. Though that was more than likely intentional being a contentious subject so as to get the Arbitration panel to define what National was defined as, the definition of a "Challenging Yacht Club" was clearly defined.

Even though this was a less contentious subject it eliminated the need for an Arbitration panel dispute/ decision.

 

 

 

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Hey, in the Brave New Circus, LE/RC don't NEED no stinkin' yacht club!  They control all the "competitors."  No need to redesign a burgee or anything. They can pick all the branding. They got yellow-wheel regatta trophies, a really big new silver mug, er, trophy to engrave, and can park their corporate trough boat right on the course! That's  progress, right? 

And since nothing is public, I am sure their "national" team rules now include "unless we need to add a foreign backup."  Not to take away from the US shore team guy who trimmed day 1 but hadn't raced on the boat before. They made it!

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^^Coutts National rules have always been when it suits. On one hand he says "These are National Teams" on the other hand "Its professional teams and professional sailors and jobs for all" lol

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55 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

They control all the "competitors." 

Their selection process is completely opaque, with no discernible rational behind any of it.  The Nationality component Russell espoused is farcical like everything else about this contrived shit show. The cricket world cup is on in England at the moment. Pakistanis and Indians living in the UK are coming out in huge numbers to support their teams. Does anyone think a single Japanese person turned up to support the Japanese F50 in NY? Does anyone think the American locals on the shoreline had any idea who Rome Kirby was?  Sail boat racing is a niche within a niche, to think he can grow this into anything broad based is beyond delusion.

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10 hours ago, nav said:

And when a Challenge from a Club fulfilling all the conditions required by this instrument has been received, no other challenge can be considered until the pending event has b And when a Challenge from a Club fulfilling all the conditions required by this instrument has been received, no other challenge can be considered until the pending event has been decided.

"The Club challenging for the Cup and the Club holding the same may by mutual consent make any arrangement satisfactory to both as to the dates, courses, number of trials, rules and sailing regulations, and any and all other conditions of the match, in which case also the ten months’ notice may be waived."

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58 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Bloody hell, I'd forgotten about this saga. It was a truly fucked up and underhand attempt to disarm a challenger who must have been giving them plenty of concern. He's done some shitty things but this was next level.

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3 hours ago, Forourselves said:

The protocol is Deed compliant, the fact that they added clarity to it to prevent incorrect situations arising again surely serves to better the event

How can you explain that a protocol restricting the Deed is compliant ?

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12 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

How can you explain that a protocol restricting the Deed is compliant ?

A protocol doesn't restrict the deed, it interprets/ defines it, the same way laws interpret/ define a constitution.

There would be chaos in countries like the US if the constitution was taken at face value. People would interpret it the way they see it from their own point of view. As would another person who may interpret the same document in a different way. Laws exist to interpret such documents, just as the protocol exists to interpret the Deed.

For you to say just read the DoG and take it at face value isn't logical and would cause chaos, which is why mutual consent exists between Defender and Challenger.

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17 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

Really interesting section on assembly and shore work. Chris Draper says they copied thinner  Kiwi foil elbows ;)

Race village looked pretty sparse.

67 containers per team? Does LE own a transport logistics firm the way he owns Core?  

Interesting view of Adrenaline Lounge and VIP boat view parked inside the course.

That is more like 6-7 containers! :D

I don't really understand the concept of the spectator boat on the race course, but at least that is for ticket purchasing spectators rather than huge funding sponsors. RC is adamant about the need to get spectators close. 

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17 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Khabib beating Conor for the title was on the official russian newspaper too, and there are about two million new MMA practitioners in the old USSR since his reign began.  How many new sailors did Horace and Tiger and Dongfeng create in China?  Real question, and regarding your earlier comment, you know I love ya.  How can someone not love a Chinese guy who speaks broad scots?

 

 

 

ha ha - nice one Clean. Sad thing is my Scots is no longer as 'broad' as it was - perhaps I have been here too long.

MMA& Sailing? Entirely different depth of the pool of people who can afford the sport but I get your point.

I freely admit China is now my 'sailing scene' but when I arrived in 2000 there was no non-vocational sailing. 1st 'amateur' or Corinthian club founded 2001, 1st privately owned racing yacht 2003, 1st Chinese VOR involvement Green Dragon with Guo Chuan on board (sadly no longer with us) in 2008. Oldest regatta is 15 this year(or is 16) - compare that to Cowes Week (for example) which has been on the go for well over 100 years

On the additional sailor numbers thanks to Black, Wolf & Horace (Tiger Mok sailed for the Hong Kong team but Team Sanya also had a Tiger) I cannot tell you just how many but for example a bunch of boat owners chartered Green Dragon to do the Legends Race because of DFRT's previous Volvo and I can tell you their party for the DFRT victory went on until almost dawn - BTW that was just a few days over 1 year ago, I can still remember the hangover :-)

And on Monday evening I had dinner with a couple guys, one who bought a 55 and another who's 45 arrives in October and they both wanted me to show them footage of DFRT in the VOR. Both inspired by Dongfeng.

Horace's sailing club has had a rapid growth in membership and Black is recognised wherever he goes in sailing circles and probably beyond.

Sailing is growing in China and although how much that growth is caused by China's involvement in high end sailing events is impossible to know, it certainly can't hurt. The metrics on the social media followers of SailGP for example just in China almost match the rest of the world put together - FACT. That's not because of Phil Robertson, that is because of the China on the sail and Horace & Black on board.

Love ya too Clean - and before the trolls get hold of that Clean & I are bros - nothing more.

SS

 

 

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I don't understand the hate. I love watching these boats and the races. It's just so cool to see them reach 30 knots in almost no wind. And so spectacular when they are a bit out of control. I wish there where more races with these boats. Also that there would be more teams competing for the top spots.

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7 hours ago, Potter said:

That is more like 6-7 containers! :D

I don't really understand the concept of the spectator boat on the race course, but at least that is for ticket purchasing spectators rather than huge funding sponsors. RC is adamant about the need to get spectators close. 

Ah, 6-7. Better.

That Aqua Azul was a VIP corp sponsor media boat. The 3 ticketed options were on other boats.  Adamant about sponsors and media. One of the Youtuber  ideos linked above got on there and into Adrenaline lounge.

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Hit fp by accident saw this description of the SailGP Adrenaline Grand Party on that boat linked.  Since most onboard reportedly were not that into the race event, maybe next year they can move the party boat off the course.  Or not, lol. Prioritie$! 

https://optimist-openbic-sailing.blogspot.com/2019/06/i-attended-sail-grand-party-and-it-was.html

 

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On 6/26/2019 at 9:07 AM, MR.CLEAN said:

Khabib beating Conor for the title was on the official russian newspaper too, and there are about two million new MMA practitioners in the old USSR since his reign began.  How many new sailors did Horace and Tiger and Dongfeng create in China?  Real question, and regarding your earlier comment, you know I love ya.  How can someone not love a Chinese guy who speaks broad scots?

 

 

 

you have smoked yourself retarded.

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I don't care who you are - that's great racing and a great format. This is the future. It may not be a blow-out future - but everything else just sucks comparatively.

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So according to Hollywood Reporter,  SGP and Timeline Television are nominated for an innovation award for remote production.  I am not sure if it's for LiveLine (which is great), the offsite play by play, or both.  Or maybe for the uploads. Anyway...

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/behind-screen/riot-games-fox-sports-shortlisted-ibc-innovation-awards-1222459

 

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Aw man - that Father/Son Kirby interview was perfect. And 40 knots in relatively light winds. What a sport.

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3 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Aw man - that Father/Son Kirby interview was perfect. What a sport.

Russell, is that you?

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Heh.

Even the GP trophy is more interesting in terms of design than The Mule. I'm sorry - but AC's a lost cause at this point.

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6 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Even the GP trophy is more interesting in terms of design than The Mule.

Crap...! I reckon the Mule would eat these cats around their shitty little courses. As for being interesting in terms of design - this makes me think you're just a paid troll. What's so interesting about the design and development of the F50?

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Paid troll? You're saying that with less than 700 posts? Go away newb. I'm talking to Fourourselves.

 

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Your post count doesn't mean shit to me. You want to trash talk the AC75 expect some blow back. Answer the fuckin question troll.

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Angry little elf.

I'm posting in the SailGP thread, which is where I want to be...because it's the future. I don't know who you are and I don't really care. But I'll give you one more reply because you seem cheeky. Then you're on your own.

There is no AC75. There is only The Mule. Stay focused.

These SailGP boats are next generation technology from top to bottom. There's just no question on that. Due to their design, they completely play the wind. That's more than clear in these races.

The Mule, on the other hand, is precisely what its name implies - a crossbred species carrying a huge load of nostalgia and not doing either parentage true honor. The AC75 will simply be a bigger mule. Whoop-de-doo.

You go love your foiling-mono AC. I don't give a damn. But it's certainly not the future. It's a blip.

You may return to your angst, boy. I certainly won't follow you around. But pipe down - I'm here for the circus.

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21 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

I want to watch the circus.

I heard one of the guests on the VIP tub scored a dodgy shrimp - went for a loose dump, came back and the race was already over - Damn!  Sorry smacko, I totally refute the suggestion that the AC75 concept is inferior to the F50's. Surrogates like the Mule and Luna Rossa's Mini Moon show awesome potential to become classes unto themselves, so impressive is their performance. This is with soft sails and not a cumbersome wing that requires craning on and off. These boats are the future of yacht racing, not the F50.

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50 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Angry little elf.

I'm posting in the SailGP thread, which is where I want to be...because it's the future. I don't know who you are and I don't really care. But I'll give you one more reply because you seem cheeky. Then you're on your own.

There is no AC75. There is only The Mule. Stay focused.

These SailGP boats are next generation technology from top to bottom. There's just no question on that. Due to their design, they completely play the wind. That's more than clear in these races.

The Mule, on the other hand, is precisely what its name implies - a crossbred species carrying a huge load of nostalgia and not doing either parentage true honor. The AC75 will simply be a bigger mule. Whoop-de-doo.

You go love your foiling-mono AC. I don't give a damn. But it's certainly not the future. It's a blip.

You may return to your angst, boy. I certainly won't follow you around. But pipe down - I'm here for the circus.

Lol well at least we know Russells marketing is working. He's managed to attract at least one of the uneducated unwashed masses..

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29 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Lol well at least we know Russells marketing is working. He's managed to attract at least one of the uneducated unwashed masses..

I don't really care about whose running it, Four. Never have. That's all politics.

I care about the sailing. It speaks for itself. Always has. That's why I like The Circus.

Call me when the cup gets up to speed. Until then - it's just a "concept", just "potential", just "a sample".

urine-sample-730x430.jpg

Now pardon me while I go wash my hands.

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I''d bet my left nut that smacko is associated with the "Circus". Such shameless, sycophantic endorsing reeks, and is totally transparent. "The sailing speaks for itself" Spare me the bullshit. Two out of the three events have been complete duds. You're good for a laugh smacko, but also symptomatic of desperation. 

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Even if the sailing was exciting & the coverage good Larrys AC50 circus can never hope to have the meaning of the AC.

Like every other 'F1 on water' circuit attempt sailing in shitty 'arena' venues its only a matter of a few years before it fizzles into the pitiless dark of complete historical obscurity while sailors & ₿illionaire$ will still dream of getting their names on the AC.

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2 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

You AC guys sure know how whinge.

We only get to watch the event once every four years. We get bored. 

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^ I genuinely hope you're right because so far it really hasn't lived up to the hype, yes it has had it's moments, but they've been few and far between.

At the moment it's a bit of a dud, I just hope it does get better, if not I can't see sponsors coming forward, there's only two teams in it and no sponsor is going to splash the cash to see their boat get spat out the back.

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12 minutes ago, Woolfy said:

^ I genuinely hope you're right because so far it really hasn't lived up to the hype, yes it has had it's moments, but they've been few and far between.

At the moment it's a bit of a dud, I just hope it does get better, if not I can't see sponsors coming forward, there's only two teams in it and no sponsor is going to splash the cash to see their boat get spat out the back.

USA won a race in New York. That's a start to more competition for the wins. They apparently had a replacement trimmer due to injury. It was their wing trim teacher showing how it's done! Maybe they should keep him at the controls! =)

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8 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

No, you are the one throwing shit to SailGP at every opportunity. These Events weren't duds. It just happens to be that Australia & Japan are the two most polished Teams right now cuz they spent the most time in these Boats. Count the Days Slingsby & Outterridge spent driving the AC50's now F50's in relation to Dylan Fletcher (GBR), Billy Besson (FRA), Phil Robertson (CHN) and Rome Kirby (USA) and you have your answer.

As SailGP progresses into 2020 and beyond Racing will get a lot tighter.

They were duds. Sydney was a huge disappointment. The teams weren't trained enough and the boats looked terrible. 

The only reason SailGP got any traction at all, was because they rushed it to get it out before the AC ramped up. The F50 was the only thing happening that resembled anything remotely similar to the Americas Cup. As much as Russell says he doesn't want to be associated with the Americas Cup, he went with the F50 because he knew people WOULD associate it with the AC. Its the same reason all you SailGP fans won't move this thread to its own forum and want to keep it in the AC forum. You say "It has nothing to do with the AC, so everyone should stop associating it with the AC, but we'd like to keep it in the AC forum, otherwise it may just become irrelevant - Coutts is doing the EXACT same thing, for the EXACT same reason. 

He kept the AC50 (albeit an altered version) and used guys like Slingsby and Outteridge because they were/ are associated with the AC.

Whether or not the racing gets "tighter" time will tell, but guys like Slingsby and Outteridge are not only great sailors, they're experienced leaders. Billy Besson, Phil Robertson, Dylan Fletcher, not so much.

The only reason SailGP has gotten any traction at all is because they rushed it out so that they could capitalise on the quiet period in the AC. I think you'll find, Once the AC75's roll outta the shed, the teams get out on the water, the puff vids start flooding social media and the teams come out of hibernation the excitement will shift from SailGP to the AC like it always does.

The other thing is the preparations for the next Ocean Race will also start ramping up in the near future. We'll have the AC75 boat 1, maybe at least one more test boat from the Kiwi's, the Cagliari event in April, then the AC75 boat 2 rolling straight into the Christmas Cup, Prada Cup, and the Americas Cup match, not to mention all the other festivities planned for Auckland in 2021 including the J-Class regatta and the Sydney - Auckland Race which will include teams like Wild Oats XI and Comanche. On top of that we'll start seeing more IMOCA 60's and Ocean Race 65's rolling out of the shed as well as teams being finalised for the next Ocean Race edition. The monohull will begin a new generation of dominance. 

 

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^I don't  think the F50 boats looked terrible. The sailing was subpar due to training time and skill/experience  differentials but the boats as pieces of equipment are ok.

If they ever manage to close up the skills with enough  training time, we have seen they can have close sailing. As is, the bulk just try to keep the wheels on the bus 

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^^ The boats in of themselves didn't look terrible as pieces of equipment. I don't think there are many boats out there that look terrible as pieces of equipment, but if they're not being sailed to their potential as they had been in the past, it can make them look terrible.

Not sure anyone can match Slingsby/ Outteridge at the moment, but that's to be expected given their time in the AC50.

Thats the other question, how long are Slingsby/ Outteridge and Jensen going to be around in SailGP? At one stage these teams were supposed to be 100% National. 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Ex-yachtie said:

We only get to watch the event once every four years. We get bored. 

I agree that does kind of suck, Ex. In general, I've always liked the event for what it is. It has so much history and tradition behind it, it deserves some level of respect as an event. But that's about as far as I'll go. Again, I'm not here to slag the AC (though I do think the current design direction is beyond stupid) - I'm here to enjoy SailGP.

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9 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

No, you are the one throwing shit to SailGP at every opportunity. These Events weren't duds. It just happens to be that Australia & Japan are the two most polished Teams right now cuz they spent the most time in these Boats. Count the Days Slingsby & Outterridge spent driving the AC50's now F50's in relation to Dylan Fletcher (GBR), Billy Besson (FRA), Phil Robertson (CHN) and Rome Kirby (USA) and you have your answer.

As SailGP progresses into 2020 and beyond Racing will get a lot tighter.

This is a good point dg. That was clear in the racing. The performance level of these boats is through the roof. That's why you see so many lead changes...they completely maximize the wind...IMMEDIATELY. BUT it was also clear that it was very easy for a crew to make little mistakes - which cost them tremendously. In one of the races Rome had a killer start...blew everyone off the line, then fell off the foils a few hundred meters in and ended up at the back of the fleet. Japan and Oz just consistently make far fewer mistakes than anyone else out there.

These boats are at the 50 knot threshold. That's just insane. BUT, unlike the new AC boats, they are also still really fast when not on foils. If one is a sailor and can't appreciate this kind of technological advance in sailing...one is an idiot.

As these teams get better sailing these boats - and the level of the race presentation continues to improve, SailGP is going to see a lot of growth.

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10 hours ago, hoom said:

Even if the sailing was exciting & the coverage good Larrys AC50 circus can never hope to have the meaning of the AC.

This is the rub. I said in my post above that I do respect this last part and always will - especially being one of those 'Merikans. But, I'm sorry, that's just not enough to hold my (or most people's) interest.

The truth is - the SailGP sailing IS exciting and the coverage IS good. To not give that credit where it's due is a bit strange.

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51 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

As much as Russell says he doesn't want to be associated with the Americas Cup, he went with the F50 because he knew people WOULD associate it with the AC. Its the same reason all you SailGP fans won't move this thread to its own forum and want to keep it in the AC forum. You say "It has nothing to do with the AC, so everyone should stop associating it with the AC, but we'd like to keep it in the AC forum, otherwise it may just become irrelevant - Coutts is doing the EXACT same thing, for the EXACT same reason.

You obviously have a real boner for RC. As I said previously, I don't really care about him or Larry, etc. I don't follow what they say or do. I just follow the racing because it's good.

But to say "it has nothing to do with the AC" is a pretty ridiculous thing to say - by anyone. These designs came out of the AC. It was the best thing to happen to the AC and overall sailing since the advent of fiberglass. So this thread belongs in the AC forum. No question. If you don't like it - go way. Lots of other threads for you that I personally have no interest in following.

 

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3 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

But to say "it has nothing to do with the AC" is a pretty ridiculous thing to say - by anyone

 

@Tornado-Cat and @dg_sailingfan see, more posters who think your comments are ridiculous.

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8 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

@Tornado-Cat and @dg_sailingfan see, more posters who think your comments are ridiculous.

Again, I don't care who says it or why - I just think it's a ridiculous thing to say. Anyone who watched the ACWS - which I freakin' loved - will have a hard time making the case that SailGP didn't come out of that program. It was a brilliant program as I said then and I still say now. That doesn't take anything away from SailGP or AC - it's just facts.

That said, I can totally understand why SailGP wants to completely distinguish itself from the AC for the reasons I mentioned above. AC is an antique...a beloved antique...but still an antique fraught with ridiculous politics as you're clearly demonstrating. Worse, it seems to want to stay that way. That's fine, but it's no longer as interesting as it once was because there are now far better options for pushing the envelope of sailing. SailGP is clearly leading those options.

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10 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

You obviously have a real boner for RC. As I said previously, I don't really care about him or Larry, etc. I don't follow what they say or do. I just follow the racing because it's good.

But to say "it has nothing to do with the AC" is a pretty ridiculous thing to say - by anyone. These designs came out of the AC. It was the best thing to happen to the AC and overall sailing since the advent of fiberglass. So this thread belongs in the AC forum. No question. If you don't like it - go way. Lots of other threads for you that I personally have no interest in following.

 

How Ironic, he's in an Americas Cup forum, even though he has no interest in the Americas Cup, and wants others to go away so he can follow something thats not the Americas Cup lol 

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11 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Again, I don't care who says it or why - I just think it's a ridiculous thing to say. Anyone who watched the ACWS - which I freakin' loved - will have a hard time making the case that SailGP didn't come out of that program. It was a brilliant program as I said then and I still say now. That doesn't take anything away from SailGP or AC - it's just facts.

That said, I can totally understand why SailGP wants to completely break away from AC for the reasons I mentioned above. AC is an antique...a beloved antique...but still an antique. And it seems to want to stay that way. That's fine, but it's no longer as interesting as it once was because there are now far better options for pushing the envelope of sailing. SailGP is clearly leading those options.

The fact that you loved the ACWS speaks volumes. 

 

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10 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

The fact that you loved the ACWS speaks volumes. and aren't you saying you're being ridiculous yourself? You just said its ridiculous to say it has nothing to do with the Americas Cup, but you understand why they want nothing to do with the Americas Cup.

 

Dude, you are so wrapped up in your head I don't even understand what you're saying. Yes, I loved ACWS. And I love SailGP. They are almost identical in terms of boat design, racing style, and presentation. Yet the technology has clearly come a long way on all fronts with SailGP. And I appreciate and respect that.

Look, I'm going to leave you to it, Four. I thought maybe you could be somewhat reasonable since you've been here a while, but I think you're way too wound up in your AC-only allegiance and all the weird arguments and politics that come from that that you can't see straight. And I have zero interest following you down your rabbit hole.

Cheers Four. And try to quit whinging.

I'm happy to talk about SailGP with those that enjoy it without the KoolAid.

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40 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

That's why you see so many lead changes...they completely maximize the wind...IMMEDIATELY.

That is complete spin. The conditions were so full of holes it made Swiss cheese look solid. The teams make heaps of mistakes, because training is scant and used to handicap, and we have seen in the last cup that given two even boats one mistake is a hundred metres at least.

These are great boats,but any of the ex cup classes could have been used. That's the point here, all of the bits that made these boats cool came about because of AC development, period. There will be no more significant dev. Cul de sac.

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11 minutes ago, barfy said:

That is complete spin. The conditions were so full of holes it made Swiss cheese look solid. The teams make heaps of mistakes, because training is scant and used to handicap, and we have seen in the last cup that given two even boats one mistake is a hundred metres at least.

These are great boats,but any of the ex cup classes could have been used. That's the point here, all of the bits that made these boats cool came about because of AC development, period. There will be no more significant dev. Cul de sac.

I don't get what you mean by "spin". Yes, the there were clearly windholes everywhere on that NY course. But all that means is that it makes for more challenging racing - which means that the boats just have to be that much more optimal to take advantage of the wind that's there. These boats clearly could do that. No question. Isn't that a good thing?

Are you saying that performance can only be measured if and when everyone has perfectly stable conditions? That sounds very AC-ish.

Again, I haven't followed all the spittle flying arguments that surround all this because I don't really care to. It's generally ridiculous - on both sides. As I've said, I totally agree that SailGP generally grew out of the ACWS (which was Larry's vision anyway if I recall). I see or have no problem with that. And I also have no problem with SailGP distancing itself from AC precisely because of all the politics and stupidity that go on within it - as illustrated in most of these discussions.

Just appreciate great sailing when it happens! SailGP is great sailing.

 

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26 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Dude, you are so wrapped up in your head I don't even understand what you're saying. Yes, I loved ACWS. And I love SailGP. They are almost identical in terms of boat design, racing style, and presentation. Yet the technology has clearly come a long way on all fronts with SailGP. And I appreciate and respect that.

Look, I'm going to leave you to it, Four. I thought maybe you could be somewhat reasonable since you've been here a while, but I think you're way too wound up in your AC-only allegiance and all the weird arguments and politics that come from that that you can't see straight. And I have zero interest following you down your rabbit hole.

Cheers Four. And try to quit whinging.

I'm happy to talk about SailGP with those that enjoy it without the KoolAid.

"the technology has clearly come a long way on all fronts with SailGP" In what way? How do you quantify that remark? How do you measure that? because they built some boats?

I can be completely reasonable, but for you to come out throwing shade at the AC calling it anique even though they're using a concept that has NEVER been seen before, incorporating technology that has NEVER been used before while saying "SailGP has technology that has clearly come a long way" even though the F50's have not yet proved to be superior to the AC50 in any way is frankly, STUPID.

If you want to watch SailGP because the boats are cool and colourful thats fine, but don't try and spin some sort of BS spin about the AC being "Antique" and boring. I think thats completely reasonable.

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2 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

"the technology has clearly come a long way on all fronts with SailGP" In what way? How do you quantify that remark? How do you measure that? because they built some boats?

I can be completely reasonable, but for you to come out throwing shade at the AC calling it anique even though they're using a concept that has NEVER been seen before, incorporating technology that has NEVER been used before while saying "SailGP has technology that has clearly come a long way" even though the F50's have not yet proved to be superior to the AC50 in any way id frankly, STUPID.

If you want to watch SailGP because the boats are cool and colourful thats fine, but don't try and spin some sort of BS spin about the AC being "Antique" and boring. I think thats completely reasonable.

Okay, you seem to calming down a bit, so I'll give you one more shot.

As for the new boat direction for the AC - what do you mean that it's a concept and technology that's "NEVER' been seen before?

2018_HB_ATR_PR_001_sRGB_120dpi.jpg

Certainly looks like it's been done before. Sure, The Mule is taking it to the next level - but "NEVER BEFORE", seriously?

The wing came about a couple of AC's ago - from the same guys now doing SailGP. Where exactly had you seen that before?

And now you guys are arguing about the superiority between the F50s and the AC50s? Seriously? Why? Just watch that video above and compare it to the last AWCS in terms of speed and power of the boats.

The AC is an antique of an event. That indisputable. Whether these new mono-foilers will be all that remains to be seen. I'm no boat designer, but my hunch is that their overall performance will be underwhelming. Unless they are up on the foils - there's just too much surface area in the water to stay really fast (unlike the multis).

That said, I DO like the direction if it improves the technology and speeds for these Vendee boats, etc. If Alex can truly blast around the world at 30+ knots sustained - that's cool.

But if it ends up just being technology that can only handle a small envelope of "near perfect conditions" (like the original multi version of the AC a few iterations ago) - that will be a serious letdown.

We'll see. I'm not holding my breath.

 

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11 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Look @Forourselves,

like myself & @Tornado-Cat said: If the AC75 work we will be the 1st to cheer them on.

The concept of the F50's (formerly AC50's) has proven themselves, the judgement of the new AC75 's is still out.

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

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Just now, smackdaddy said:

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

Hahaha such innocence...its refreshing lol

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2 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Okay, you seem to calming down a bit, so I'll give you one more shot.

As for the new boat direction for the AC - what do you mean that it's a concept and technology that's "NEVER' been seen before?

2018_HB_ATR_PR_001_sRGB_120dpi.jpg

Certainly looks like it's been done before. Sure, The Mule is taking it to the next level - but "NEVER BEFORE", seriously?

The wing came about a couple of AC's ago - from the same guys now doing SailGP. Where exactly had you seen that before?

And now you guys are arguing about the superiority between the F50s and the AC50s? Seriously? Why? Just watch that video above and compare it to the last AWCS in terms of speed and power of the boats.

The AC is an antique of an event. That indisputable. Whether these new mono-foilers will be all that remains to be seen. I'm no boat designer, but my hunch is that their overall performance will be underwhelming. Unless they are up on the foils - there's just too much surface area in the water to stay really fast (unlike the multis).

That said, I DO like the direction if it improves the technology and speeds for these Vendee boats, etc. If Alex can truly blast around the world at 30+ knots sustained - that's cool.

But if it ends up just being technology that can only handle a small envelope of "near perfect conditions" (like the original multi version of the AC a few iterations ago) - that will be a serious letdown.

We'll see. I'm not holding my breath.

 

Please don't tell me you think the IMOCA's are similar to the AC75!?

You really think the Mule is similar to an IMOCA 60?? Thats like saying the AC50 is similar to MC32. Sheesh you're right when you say you're no boat designer.

Or comanche is similar to the Optimist.

How exactly is the AC "antique"?

I do enjoy the naivety and innocence of someone that hasn't followed the thread though:) its so refreshing.

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19 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

I don't get what you mean by "spin". Yes, the there were clearly windholes everywhere on that NY course. But all that means is that it makes for more challenging racing - which means that the boats just have to be that much more optimal to take advantage of the wind that's there. These boats clearly could do that. No question. Isn't that a good thing?

Are you saying that performance can only be measured if and when everyone has perfectly stable conditions? That sounds very AC-ish.

Again, I haven't followed all the spittle flying arguments that surround all this because I don't really care to. It's generally ridiculous - on both sides. As I've said, I totally agree that SailGP generally grew out of the ACWS (which was Larry's vision anyway if I recall). I see or have no problem with that. And I also have no problem with SailGP distancing itself from AC precisely because of all the politics and stupidity that go on within it - as illustrated in most of these discussions.

Just appreciate great sailing when it happens! SailGP is great sailing.

 

It certainly has its moments, and I did enjoy how close to the edge NY was

31 minutes ago, barfy said:
  1 hour ago, smackdaddy said:

That's why you see so many lead changes...they completely maximize the wind...IMMEDIATELY

But "completely maximise the wind" is just a sound bite. And not the reason for the lead changes. Poor maneuvers and super variable conditions were the reason that leads changed so often, and it did separate NO from the rest.

"means that the boats just have to be that much more optimal": more sound bites.there was some discussion how some locals used to dominate that track on lasers, they were optimal enough.

My problem with the series being sustainable has been: trying to get broadcast rights and apps and not going wide as possible with coverage, never being money or time for training and development, and all the spin like pro wrestling.

This is the "about" from the web site. Like where does one start? How about "In short, SailGP is outperformance realized." WTF, did wussel write that?

"The new SailGP is re-defining the sport of sailing. As a completely new global sports series featuring bold, cutting-edge technology and awe-inspiring athleticism, SailGP puts the fan at the center of the sport.

The racing takes place in some of the world’s most iconic city waterfronts, where athletes from rival nations will race head-to-head on the newly redefined F50 wingsailed catamarans, which fly above the water on wave-piercing hydrofoils at speeds of over 50 knots (60 mph).

.....

The sailors – world champions, Olympic medalists, America’s Cup winners – represent the best young talent their nations have produced.

In short, SailGP is outperformance realized."

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34 minutes ago, barfy said:

It certainly has its moments, and I did enjoy how close to the edge NY was

But "completely maximise the wind" is just a sound bite. And not the reason for the lead changes. Poor maneuvers and super variable conditions were the reason that leads changed so often, and it did separate NO from the rest.

"means that the boats just have to be that much more optimal": more sound bites.there was some discussion how some locals used to dominate that track on lasers, they were optimal enough.

My problem with the series being sustainable has been: trying to get broadcast rights and apps and not going wide as possible with coverage, never being money or time for training and development, and all the spin like pro wrestling.

This is the "about" from the web site. Like where does one start? How about "In short, SailGP is outperformance realized." WTF, did wussel write that?

"The new SailGP is re-defining the sport of sailing. As a completely new global sports series featuring bold, cutting-edge technology and awe-inspiring athleticism, SailGP puts the fan at the center of the sport.

The racing takes place in some of the world’s most iconic city waterfronts, where athletes from rival nations will race head-to-head on the newly redefined F50 wingsailed catamarans, which fly above the water on wave-piercing hydrofoils at speeds of over 50 knots (60 mph).

.....

The sailors – world champions, Olympic medalists, America’s Cup winners – represent the best young talent their nations have produced.

In short, SailGP is outperformance realized."

I'm not doing any math here...but what I saw in the above videos was that these boats immediately responded to wind (or lack thereof) and got up on the foils and to ~40 very quickly - just as they dropped dead to 3 in heartbeat in the holes. I don't know what you want to call that, but it certainly looks like completely maximizing wind to me. And for a 50' boat to do that is very, very impressive. That's what I'm saying.

(A freakin' 14' Laser? Did you actually just make that comparison to these boats? Really?)

Again, you guys are just WAY over the top in your nitpicking. It has zero logic in it. The foils re-defined sailing. The wing re-defined sailing. These incredible speeds have re-defined sailing. The presentation has re-defined racing. It's really fun to watch these races.

Sure, there's marketing language in that "about" stuff (who cares?) - but these points still stand with plenty of evidence to back it up. You guys are making some seriously weird arguments.

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44 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Please don't tell me you think the IMOCA's are similar to the AC75!?

You really think the Mule is similar to an IMOCA 60?? Thats like saying the AC50 is similar to MC32. Sheesh you're right when you say you're no boat designer.

Or comanche is similar to the Optimist.

How exactly is the AC "antique"?

I do enjoy the naivety and innocence of someone that hasn't followed the thread though:) its so refreshing.

Okay, I figured this was where it would go. You obviously don't have the ability to make sense, Four.

You go ahead and enjoy your "never before seen" AC world. I don't really care.

PS - Are you a boat designer? Lord I hope not.

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6 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Okay, I figured this was where it would go. You obviously don't have the ability to make sense, Four.

You go ahead and enjoy your "never before seen" AC world, Four. I don't really care.

Huh? You make claims and throw shade, then say "I don't care what you say" dude you obviously don't have a clue what you're talking about and thats fine, just say you don't know anything about it, and say I like looking at the cool boats and that would suffice.

Enjoy your colourful, cool looking boats lol

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1 hour ago, smackdaddy said:

don't get what you mean by "spin". Yes, the there were clearly windholes everywhere on that NY course. But all that means is that it makes for more challenging racing - which means that the boats just have to be that much more optimal to take advantage of the wind that's there. These boats clearly could do that. No question. 

I'm saying lasers competed in the shifty conditions, and by accounts, the best sailors dominated. So we didn't really need 50kt cats. Your spin,and surely you know what that means, was that the f50 "completely maximised the wind". That is glowing flowing spin cuz. 

Im thinking your deep dip all of a sudden here is indicative of a sock, or a schill.

And I say again,I enjoyed some races, I just don't enjoy the spin, and I believe serious problems exist that will send the series to the carbon heap in two years.

 

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30 minutes ago, barfy said:

I'm saying lasers competed in the shifty conditions, and by accounts, the best sailors dominated. So we didn't really need 50kt cats. Your spin,and surely you know what that means, was that the f50 "completely maximised the wind". That is glowing flowing spin cuz. 

Im thinking your deep dip all of a sudden here is indicative of a sock, or a schill.

And I say again,I enjoyed some races, I just don't enjoy the spin, and I believe serious problems exist that will send the series to the carbon heap in two years.

 

I know what spin is, barf. I'm seeing a hell of a lot of it here with guys insisting I can't say this or that...like that will actually work.

I stand by what I saw in that video above. I've watched all the previous series and these particular boats are impressive at maximizing the wind - clearly seen in those NY conditions. How ever you want to word it is up to you.

Also, I totally agree that the best sailors dominated. That's what I said above. They most always do. But that doesn't take anything away from the boats. And I don't really see why you guys are so sensitive about that. In fact, I think it shows how incredible these boats are that sailors this good and experienced are still learning to control them. That says a lot.

I've been around SA since 2008. And I don't wear socks. You guys are seriously paranoid. So relax cuz.

I'm glad you enjoyed the races. I did too. I'm a big fan of SailGP, just as I was the ACWS. It's the racing of the future as far as I'm concerned. I've always been more of an ocean racing guy, and used to be a HUGE VOR fan. But it's all but done I think - sadly. I like what's happening in the Vendee, and maybe this new AC mono-foil technology will breathe some new life into it and/or the ex-VOR. But I'm not holding my breath.

The AC just feels more and more like the GGR with every iteration. Great history.

 

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"Stadium" fleet racing is boring, with luck playing a bigger part in the results. It'll appeal to the short-attention-afflicted crowd. I wonder why Louis Vuitton is not one of their sponsors...

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Ummm...picky point and a question.

Picky point re #4241: OTAUS did introduce wingsails to the AC. But not the wingsail per se. See, eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingsail  Alinghi introduced catamarans to AC, lol!

Question: so does someone with the app replay know how fast the F50s were when not foiling? I think maybe US stayed off foils a lot first day in NY, China crept around a lot, but did not look at their data. Mostly only saw boats falling off and stalling, but were there "fast times" for others?

 

PS yes I know it was DC that was why the lol, lol

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23 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Ummm...picky point and a question.

Picky point re #4241: OTAUS did introduce wingsails to the AC. But not the wingsail per se. See, eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingsail  Alinghi introduced catamarans to AC, lol!

Question: so does someone with the app replay know how fast the F50s were when not foiling? I think maybe US stayed off foils a lot first day in NY, China crept around a lot, but did not look at their data. Mostly only saw boats falling off and stalling, but were there "fast times" for others?

I don't think I said anything different, clew. I remember well that 33rd edition. It was really the first time I personally got very interested in the AC.

"The wing seems to be quite a weapon." - Ernesto

As for numbers, I'd be interested as well. For the real comparison between these multis and the mono approach, it's the off-foil speeds that are going to be the differentiator for all-round performance/speed I think (overall averages in varying conditions). If the boat is an off-foil pig, it's not a great boat. Period.

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21 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Ummm...picky point and a question.

Picky point re #4241: OTAUS did introduce wingsails to the AC. But not the wingsail per se. See, eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingsail  Alinghi introduced catamarans to AC, lol!

Question: so does someone with the app replay know how fast the F50s were when not foiling? I think maybe US stayed off foils a lot first day in NY, China crept around a lot, but did not look at their data. Mostly only saw boats falling off and stalling, but were there "fast times" for others?

 

PS yes I know it was DC that was why the lol, lol

Was the "lol" only for DC ilo Alinghi introducing the cat, but also for him introducing the wingsail into the AC? You knew this, right? ;)

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^ AND  ^^

Sorry. Drunk posting. Trying to be compact and clever, was just stupid. Sorry.

Drunk and remorseful.

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Never be remorseful...just drunk.

Happy 4th Clew!

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8 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Just appreciate great sailing when it happens! SailGP is great sailing.

Fuck off you condescending prick. I'm not buying any of your bullshit. 10 minutes races is not in any universe great sailing. It's not even fucking sailing. You are so full of shit. I know a fuckin troll when I see one, and you are a troll. Fuck right off.

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9 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

This is the rub. I said in my post above that I do respect this last part and always will - especially being one of those 'Merikans. But, I'm sorry, that's just not enough to hold my (or most people's) interest. 

The truth is - the SailGP sailing IS exciting and the coverage IS good. To not give that credit where it's due is a bit strange.

The history of the AC isn't enough to hold your attention but boring lottery 'racing' in 'arena' venues where between randomly dropping to 2kt in the holes the boats can barely get up to speed before having to gybe/tack/mark-round is somehow exciting and attention holding? :huh:

Are you the kind of guy who finds watching one-armed-bandits entertaining? :rolleyes:

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Just catching up on the SF series....

Screen_Shot_2019-07-04_at_9_40.37_PM.thumb.png.b06ff94027e56971a8191878d2494c56.png

Wow.

'Nuff said.

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Random NY mark rounding shitshow

F46J2fS.png

MMmm so fucking thrilling :rolleyes:

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I'm starting to think you don't really sail hoom. You do realize that speed is dependent on the wind? And wind doesn't come from Amazon on order? You have to work with the conditions at race time? Maybe you don't. To help explain, virtually ALL racing boats are REALLY slow at the dock. To wit, this one is just embarrassingly slow...probably doing 0 knots. Shameful.

EBT-L-SAILGP-0423-1-1.jpg?w=620

Anyway, that image of yours (4 to 25 knot range) completely proves the point I was making above. When you show me a boat up on its foils in 3 knots of breeze I'll be impressed. Until then, you seem a bit slow on the uptake - in your own intellectual wind hole as it were.

I'm not going to argue the point with you. You and your boys are in a completely different universe where you seem to want racing to be slower and more drawn out. I don't have any interest in that. When it comes to racing, I like fast. And there is no question - these boats are freakin' fast...

Screen_Shot_2019-07-04_at_9_48.24_PM.thumb.png.0f1986d8351d9ee3daa8097cef276e88.png

Screen_Shot_2019-07-04_at_9_58.03_PM.thumb.png.4d2daebc550e0ac4f5655a2a67fa17ad.png

Go the GP.

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Showing a few images of bear away speed. No faster than we saw in Bermuda, which you're strangely silent about? No posting here during Bermuda either? Perhaps you were on Sailnet then? Oh, but you were banned from there weren't you? Such a fuckin troll.

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Hell I've been banned from lots of lame-ass forums. I wear that as a badge of honor my good man! So now you take your ridiculous "paid troll - associated with the circus" accusation back? Heh. I'm honored you're researching my substantial global impact on sailing though.

By the by, can you show me some images from the Bermuda ACWS with 45+ speeds? I don't recall that, but I could be wrong. As I said, I really enjoyed the ACWS over the past couple of AC iterations. No complaints from me. It's what set the stage for the GP.

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That's what I thought. Goodnight Horn. You may go now.

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Now - back to the GP. The SF series was just about the best racing I've seen in a LONG time. I was traveling for most of May and couldn't tune in to the live event.

Screen_Shot_2019-07-04_at_10_35.56_PM.thumb.png.2c761f283b4a4688305bc266a99ec8ef.png

Just incredible. I really look forward to Cowes. And I hope there's some breeze!

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37 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

 can you show me some images from the Bermuda ACWS with 45+ speeds?

Do we have some over 45 from the match ? not sure.

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30 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Do we have some over 45 from the match ? not sure.

Yeah, I'm not sure either. I watched that match but certainly don't remember 45. But what's his name said it so I'm sure it's true. He'll be able to prove it. Just be patient.

Did they have an ACWS event there?

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On 5/6/2019 at 10:15 AM, MR.CLEAN said:

Ha, not anymore! Finally in a business where i get paid fair wages for fair work, which ain't how sailing media works.  For instance, Jody can afford to be there for what he is getting paid, which is next to nothing, Charlie is free, Shirley is getting paid by her World Sailing Show contract, and the british douche is there for a holiday.  Good try though!

Seeing how good the SF racing was, and not knowing who these posting chuckleheads are, I went back in this thread to see what was said at that time. This "sour grapes" response from Clean is the funniest thing I found^^^

Clean - bro, I love ya, but give it up. I've seen your "sailing media" stuff since very early on.

You were paid precisely what you were worth for your work.

It's so cringey when you criticize others' production efforts. You couldn't even keep a camera steady, or a mic from over-gaining, much less fly a drone. And are you still using that Joe Rogan Experience rip-off intro? A very Carlos Mencia move, my friend. Pink flag anyone? Heh.

That said, your Spithill interview was pretty awesome. Probably your best work.

Anyway, I'm glad you finally found a gig that pays. I hope it rains for you and the fam.

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1 hour ago, smackdaddy said:

Now - back to the GP. The SF series was just about the best racing I've seen in a LONG time. I was traveling for most of May and couldn't tune in to the live event.

...

Just incredible. I really look forward to Cowes. And I hope there's some breeze!

Oh my God! I'm in love with you!

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22 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Gotta say, much more interesting than SailGP

 

This edition 2011-12 was won by Cammas on Groupama after Dante conditions, mainly before the arrival to Lorient, I don't even know how your team lost :)m23025_crop7_1024x576_1393768397C476.thumb.jpg.684eeb4b530168e2282078391ff5acf1.jpg

 

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7 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

This edition 2011-12 was won by Cammas on Groupama after Dante conditions, mainly before the arrival to Lorient, I don't even know how your team lost :)m23025_crop7_1024x576_1393768397C476.thumb.jpg.684eeb4b530168e2282078391ff5acf1.jpg

 

Consistent, but not spectacular. Cammas deserved the win, but Camper deserved 2nd. Consistency put them in second. Most importantly, they completed the race, which is more than can be said for some of the other teams. 

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7 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Consistent, but not spectacular. Cammas deserved the win, but Camper deserved 2nd. Consistency put them in second. Most importantly, they completed the race, which is more than can be said for some of the other teams. 

And the last one was won by Caudrelier on...dongfeng  :) I don't know where your team was there.
4QEO34AWS24R7CBLH7ECLTOYQI.thumb.jpg.1563ddc22a9a687e9bee08d3554f3310.jpg

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15 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

And the last one was won by Caudrelier on...dongfeng  :) I don't know where your team was there.