Offshore 1

Larry's AC50 Circus

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1 hour ago, sclarke said:

Well, if you want to believe in Santa Clause, the Tooth Fairy, and an AC50 series, up to you.

And you are simply ignoring the fact that it is logistically, economically, financially and practically highly unlikely, but like I said, if you want to believe in Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy, that's up to you.

And there is no one as gullible as the person who wants something to happen so bad that even against their own, and everyone else's best judgement, will believe anything and everything they hear.

You are now calling people gullible and accusing them of believing in things that don't exist. Please answer these questions, which you avoided last time.

 

1. ACS posted that Ian Murray said he is going to be running the racing  and that the mods are underway, and that Tom Slingsby has said he will be helming in the series? Did he make those thongs up, or did Murray and Slingsby make them up?

2. Am I making it up when I say I have been told that Artemis are in with Outteridge as helm and Percy running the show or did the person who told me lie?

3.Was agk470 making it up when he says that Grant Simmer told him that the boards were being made and the boats were being done, or was Simmer making it up?

4. Is Offshore 1 making it up when he reports that Core is currently working on the AC50's. Or was the Core staff member who told him making it up? Are you saying that Core is not working on the AC50's

5. In a recent interview by Sailjuice (Andy Rice), Paul Goodison mentions the AC50 series, although admits he doesn't have details. Did he just make that up, or does he at least know something to make him mention it in public?

6. Was the President of La Fraglia Vela Malcesine  simply making up the story about being approached by a group headed by Ellison to host and event in the Loius Vuitton Cup in a program that involves Barcelona, Dubai and San Fran. Are you suggesting that they won't be using AC50's for that series?

We have 6 different sources, 2 of which are in the press, that give us lots of evidence that the AC50 series is currently being put together and will happen. What of the above do you not believe and why

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1 hour ago, Team_GBR said:

You are now calling people gullible and accusing them of believing in things that don't exist. Please answer these questions, which you avoided last time.

I'm calling YOU gullible. Your credibility is zero. Why? because you were all over the place as to who was the best team last time in Bermuda. First you started with BAR and said they were going to win because...(Hence your screen name) then you went to Artemis and said they were going to win... then you went to Oracle and said they were going to win...and you got them all wrong. You have also been outspoken in your disagreement with everything ETNZ/ LR have arranged as it pertains to the next AC, and due to your "sour grapes" towards the change of direction of the AC, and your continued push for the AC50 series under the guise of wanting to see a "cool, fast boat, which, by all accounts the new AC75 will be, it seems the only reason you want the AC50 to remain, is because you don't agree with the direction of the AC.

1. ACS posted that Ian Murray said he is going to be running the racing  and that the mods are underway, and that Tom Slingsby has said he will be helming in the series? Did he make those thongs up, or did Murray and Slingsby make them up?

Wishful thinking.

2. Am I making it up when I say I have been told that Artemis are in with Outteridge as helm and Percy running the show or did the person who told me lie?

They told you what you wanted to hear. Or maybe you heard what you wanted to hear.

3.Was agk470 making it up when he says that Grant Simmer told him that the boards were being made and the boats were being done, or was Simmer making it up?

Simmer probably said that because boards ARE being built at CORE, just not for any AC50, but FOR THEIR NEW AC TEST BOATS THAT AINSLIE HIMSELF CONFIRMED WILL BE ON THE WATER IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF MONTHS.

4. Is Offshore 1 making it up when he reports that Core is currently working on the AC50's. Or was the Core staff member who told him making it up? Are you saying that Core is not working on the AC50's

I am saying that...yes, there is nothing to say otherwise - from anywhere.

5. In a recent interview by Sailjuice (Andy Rice), Paul Goodison mentions the AC50 series, although admits he doesn't have details. Did he just make that up, or does he at least know something to make him mention it in public?

Paul Goodison has since confirmed to be part of American Magic for the next AC. So he won't be involved in any way

6. Was the President of La Fraglia Vela Malcesine  simply making up the story about being approached by a group headed by Ellison to host and event in the Loius Vuitton Cup in a program that involves Barcelona, Dubai and San Fran. Are you suggesting that they won't be using AC50's for that series?

I'm saying they may have been approached, whether anything came of it, is pure speculation.

We have 6 different sources, 2 of which are in the press, that give us lots of evidence that the AC50 series is currently being put together and will happen. What of the above do you not believe and why

6 different sources...on SA. The same people who would have us believe SBTJ and Oracle were two different teams, and that SBTJ gave no help to Oracle what so ever, and the same people Who's bias towards the Oracle vision is well documented.

End of the day...if you want me to believe you...on the flipside, hear me out. Is it not entirely possible that these "sources" have got their wires crossed and what ever is being built is NOT anything to do with the AC50's, but actually modifications to existing monohulls, boards and parts for AC test boats? I'd definitely find that a lot more likely than what you have suggested, especially given the entry period closes next month, and AC test boats will be launched in the next few months. You have to agree, that sounds like a far more believable story than what you're suggesting.

Somebodies building the parts for the test boats that are being launched in a few months, maybe thats what CORE is building. I would believe that without a doubt. CORE is a highly skilled company with an excellent track record in revolutionary boats. They would jump at the chance to build the first boards for a revolutionary new concept boat. Think about it...CORE builds the first workable boards for the first ever Americas Cup, foiling monohull, or they could build one design boards for a boat that no longer has a future in the Americas Cup

 

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1 hour ago, Team_GBR said:

You are now calling people gullible and accusing them of believing in things that don't exist. Please answer these questions, which you avoided last time.

 

1. ACS posted that Ian Murray said he is going to be running the racing  and that the mods are underway, and that Tom Slingsby has said he will be helming in the series? Did he make those thongs up, or did Murray and Slingsby make them up?

2. Am I making it up when I say I have been told that Artemis are in with Outteridge as helm and Percy running the show or did the person who told me lie?

3.Was agk470 making it up when he says that Grant Simmer told him that the boards were being made and the boats were being done, or was Simmer making it up?

4. Is Offshore 1 making it up when he reports that Core is currently working on the AC50's. Or was the Core staff member who told him making it up? Are you saying that Core is not working on the AC50's

5. In a recent interview by Sailjuice (Andy Rice), Paul Goodison mentions the AC50 series, although admits he doesn't have details. Did he just make that up, or does he at least know something to make him mention it in public?

6. Was the President of La Fraglia Vela Malcesine  simply making up the story about being approached by a group headed by Ellison to host and event in the Loius Vuitton Cup in a program that involves Barcelona, Dubai and San Fran. Are you suggesting that they won't be using AC50's for that series?

We have 6 different sources, 2 of which are in the press, that give us lots of evidence that the AC50 series is currently being put together and will happen. What of the above do you not believe and why

Coincidence and idle tittle tattle ...obvs

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You are now calling people gullible and accusing them of believing in things that don't exist. Please answer these questions, which you avoided last time.

I'm calling YOU gullible. Your credibility is zero. Why? because you were all over the place as to who was the best team last time in Bermuda. First you started with BAR and said they were going to win because...(Hence your screen name) then you went to Artemis and said they were going to win... then you went to Oracle and said they were going to win...and you got them all wrong. You have also been outspoken in your disagreement with everything ETNZ/ LR have arranged as it pertains to the next AC, and due to your "sour grapes" towards the change of direction of the AC, and your continued push for the AC50 series under the guise of wanting to see a "cool, fast boat, which, by all accounts the new AC75 will be, it seems the only reason you want the AC50 to remain, is because you don't agree with the direction of the AC.

1. ACS posted that Ian Murray said he is going to be running the racing  and that the mods are underway, and that Tom Slingsby has said he will be helming in the series? Did he make those thongs up, or did Murray and Slingsby make them up?

Wishful thinking.

2. Am I making it up when I say I have been told that Artemis are in with Outteridge as helm and Percy running the show or did the person who told me lie?

They told you what you wanted to hear. Or maybe you heard what you wanted to hear.

3.Was agk470 making it up when he says that Grant Simmer told him that the boards were being made and the boats were being done, or was Simmer making it up?

Simmer probably said that because boards ARE being built at CORE, just not for any AC50, but FOR THEIR NEW AC TEST BOATS THAT AINSLIE HIMSELF CONFIRMED WILL BE ON THE WATER IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF MONTHS.

4. Is Offshore 1 making it up when he reports that Core is currently working on the AC50's. Or was the Core staff member who told him making it up? Are you saying that Core is not working on the AC50's

I am saying that...yes, there is nothing to say otherwise - from anywhere.

5. In a recent interview by Sailjuice (Andy Rice), Paul Goodison mentions the AC50 series, although admits he doesn't have details. Did he just make that up, or does he at least know something to make him mention it in public?

Paul Goodison has since confirmed to be part of American Magic for the next AC. So he won't be involved in any way

6. Was the President of La Fraglia Vela Malcesine  simply making up the story about being approached by a group headed by Ellison to host and event in the Loius Vuitton Cup in a program that involves Barcelona, Dubai and San Fran. Are you suggesting that they won't be using AC50's for that series?

I'm saying they may have been approached, whether anything came of it, is pure speculation.

We have 6 different sources, 2 of which are in the press, that give us lots of evidence that the AC50 series is currently being put together and will happen. What of the above do you not believe and why

6 different sources...on SA. The same people who would have us believe SBTJ and Oracle were two different teams, and that SBTJ gave no help to Oracle what so ever, and the same people Who's bias towards the Oracle vision is well documented.

End of the day...if you want me to believe you...on the flipside, hear me out. Is it not entirely possible that these "sources" have got their wires crossed and what ever is being built is NOT anything to do with the AC50's, but actually modifications to existing monohulls, boards and parts for AC test boats? I'd definitely find that a lot more likely than what you have suggested, especially given the entry period closes next month, and AC test boats will be launched in the next few months. You have to agree, that sounds like a far more believable story than what you're suggesting.

Somebodies building the parts for the test boats that are being launched in a few months, maybe thats what CORE is building. I would believe that without a doubt. CORE is a highly skilled company with an excellent track record in revolutionary boats. They would jump at the chance to build the first boards for a revolutionary new concept boat. Think about it...CORE builds the first workable boards for the first ever Americas Cup, foiling monohull, or they could build one design boards for a boat that no longer has a future in the Americas Cup

 

Mr SCLARKE do you live in Auckland? its 43min drive up to core and im sure seeing as you are a kiwi you could ask to see Mark Turner  who runs the place and see what they are building. shouldnt be a problem. Do you know who owns Core? do you know the story behind the people or person who runs core? just a question that seeing as you know all about the cup i thought you'd know the connection there. 

Oracle and SBTJ were 100% seperate teams but they did share some things that i can agree on. but all the teams in BDA did share things as far as training together and practice racing went, right or wrong it happened with all teams, even your loved NZ team as i remember did quite a few days lining up with Artemis, no surprise outteridge and burling being great mates, oracle and SBTJ the boat systems were completely diffenent i mean diferent hydro systems, winches, foils, wing systems were quite similar, i mean SBTJ first 50 wing was sea trialled by Oracle. they defo did help each other with training but it was mutually beneficial well until japan was knocked out and did 2 days training with oracle. 


I can say im 100% sure my wires arnt crossed, and i'm willing to wager on it. name your price and we'll wait this out and see who wins. :D 

Im not 100% that core are not building parts for the new AC75 and like you said they are the state of the art facility and could do it without question but knowing the owner id doubt it.  

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1 hour ago, Anon said:

Not sure of everything that has been said up to this point but I have heard a bunch of facts from a reliable source.

 

The series will start at the beginning of 2019, the first of 5-6 events will take place in Sydney.

There will be 6 boats, 4 will be from Bermuda, 2 will be new.

The boats will be one design apart from the wings as they have different control systems from the cup.

Boats will be faster.

Reduced number of grinding pedestals to allow for more sailors, the removed grinders to be replaced by batteries.

 

From what I understand it will be officially announced in the next few weeks.

 

If this does come about and I for one really would not have a problem with it I think some people on here will be cutting their wrists and or jumping off tall buildings in anguish. Not really sure why as I think that any series that puts out pay checks to keep the boyz solvent is a good thing and if you are a fan of sailboat racing that should be a good thing. The less regattas the less there is a need for boats which of course means there is less of a need for crew. If we want sailing to grow and prosper less is not more.

 

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I can't say I very much care whether professional sailing grows or prospers. It isn't clear that its influence on the sport as a whole is positive.

Nevertheless I look forward to the AC50 series. At least we know the boats will work.

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23 hours ago, sclarke said:

I'm calling YOU gullible. Your credibility is zero. Why? because you were all over the place as to who was the best team last time in Bermuda. First you started with BAR and said they were going to win because...(Hence your screen name) then you went to Artemis and said they were going to win... then you went to Oracle and said they were going to win...and you got them all wrong. You have also been outspoken in your disagreement with everything ETNZ/ LR have arranged as it pertains to the next AC, and due to your "sour grapes" towards the change of direction of the AC, and your continued push for the AC50 series under the guise of wanting to see a "cool, fast boat, which, by all accounts the new AC75 will be, it seems the only reason you want the AC50 to remain, is because you don't agree with the direction of the AC.

Again, you could not be more wrong. Let's start with the obvious. My screen name of "Team_GBR is nothing to do with BAR and all about being fairly proud of having been a member of the British Olympic Sailing Squad, which is known as Team GBR. I might not have been good enough to make it to the Olympics, but i was good enough to get on funding and be training partner to Olympians. I also never suggested that Oracle would win and I never said that BAR would win the last AC. You might have missed that i was the first person to say that BAR was not competitive, because I found that out before anybody else here. I also knew the nature of their technical problems, which is why I correctly said that they could not catch up, even though many on here said they could. I also was the first person to report that Artemis was the fastest boat in Bermuda, before ETNZ showed up, which was also correct. It seems that anybody who has inside information gets to you, probably because you don't know anyone or anything.

You keep trying to compare the AC75's with the AC50's and say that they make any AC50 series irrelevant. That is because you do not understand the nature of what an AC50 series would be and for some reason, despite you saying it is not a threat to the AC, you behave as if an AC50 series would threaten the very nature of the AC. You cannot seem to fathom how both can exist and that there is certainly the demand from sailors and spectators alike for an AC50 series.

On 5/4/2018 at 7:02 PM, sclarke said:

Simmer probably said that because boards ARE being built at CORE, just not for any AC50, but FOR THEIR NEW AC TEST BOATS THAT AINSLIE HIMSELF CONFIRMED WILL BE ON THE WATER IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF MONTHS.

You really are clueless. BAR are not using Core to build them anything. That is a fact. 

22 hours ago, agk470 said:

1. ACS posted that Ian Murray said he is going to be running the racing  and that the mods are underway, and that Tom Slingsby has said he will be helming in the series? Did he make those thongs up, or did Murray and Slingsby make them up?

Wishful thinking.

I cannot comment about Slingsby, for who it might be wishful thinking, but why would Murray need wishful thinking. He doesn't need the money and he has a pretty high profile job. He doesn't need the AC50 series to happen, so why would he say it is happening and that the mods are under way if they aren't. Your comment makes zero sense.

23 hours ago, sclarke said:

5. In a recent interview by Sailjuice (Andy Rice), Paul Goodison mentions the AC50 series, although admits he doesn't have details. Did he just make that up, or does he at least know something to make him mention it in public?

Paul Goodison has since confirmed to be part of American Magic for the next AC. So he won't be involved in any way

Again, you duck the point, which is pretty clear. It is irrelevant that Goody is going to be part of American Magic. In the interview he simply said that sailors who weren't involved in the AC had other options, including the new AC50 series. Why would he say that, unless he knew it was happening?

 

On 5/4/2018 at 7:02 PM, sclarke said:

6. Was the President of La Fraglia Vela Malcesine  simply making up the story about being approached by a group headed by Ellison to host and event in the Loius Vuitton Cup in a program that involves Barcelona, Dubai and San Fran. Are you suggesting that they won't be using AC50's for that series?

I'm saying they may have been approached, whether anything came of it, is pure speculation.

Can you please explain why they would be approached if there was not going to be a series. Did Ellison and his cronies waste their time for no reason? 

Get ready. There is going to be an announcement of the series soon.

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F.Y.I.       Larry/Russel on ('Total Control' and).....

PARTICIPATION IN OTHER REGATTAS

45.

From the commencement of the America’s Cup World Series, Competitors
shall not participate in any regatta not forming part of any Event without the
prior written approval of the Commercial Commissioner. ......

 

 

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While I'm there...

49.3. Removal of America’s Cup trademarks: Competitors shall remove any
America’s Cup trademark or other intellectual property owned by
ACPI that is affixed to its yacht or equipment prior to selling, leasing or
otherwise parting with such yacht or equipment to any Person that is not a
Competitor, or otherwise promptly following the end of AC35.

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17 hours ago, maxmini said:

If this does come about and I for one really would not have a problem with it I think some people on here will be cutting their wrists and or jumping off tall buildings in anguish. Not really sure why as I think that any series that puts out pay checks to keep the boyz solvent is a good thing and if you are a fan of sailboat racing that should be a good thing. The less regattas the less there is a need for boats which of course means there is less of a need for crew. If we want sailing to grow and prosper less is not more.

 

I just hope that when the announcement comes, SClarke’s mom realizes what an assclown he he was, and takes away his internet. Maybe he’ll wander out of the basement and realize there’s a cool sailing scene outside. I doubt it, but one can hope. 

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On 5/4/2018 at 10:43 PM, agk470 said:

You are now calling people gullible and accusing them of believing in things that don't exist. Please answer these questions, which you avoided last time.

I'm calling YOU gullible. Your credibility is zero. Why? because you were all over the place as to who was the best team last time in Bermuda. First you started with BAR and said they were going to win because...(Hence your screen name) then you went to Artemis and said they were going to win... then you went to Oracle and said they were going to win...and you got them all wrong. You have also been outspoken in your disagreement with everything ETNZ/ LR have arranged as it pertains to the next AC, and due to your "sour grapes" towards the change of direction of the AC, and your continued push for the AC50 series under the guise of wanting to see a "cool, fast boat, which, by all accounts the new AC75 will be, it seems the only reason you want the AC50 to remain, is because you don't agree with the direction of the AC.

1. ACS posted that Ian Murray said he is going to be running the racing  and that the mods are underway, and that Tom Slingsby has said he will be helming in the series? Did he make those thongs up, or did Murray and Slingsby make them up?

Wishful thinking.

2. Am I making it up when I say I have been told that Artemis are in with Outteridge as helm and Percy running the show or did the person who told me lie?

They told you what you wanted to hear. Or maybe you heard what you wanted to hear.

3.Was agk470 making it up when he says that Grant Simmer told him that the boards were being made and the boats were being done, or was Simmer making it up?

Simmer probably said that because boards ARE being built at CORE, just not for any AC50, but FOR THEIR NEW AC TEST BOATS THAT AINSLIE HIMSELF CONFIRMED WILL BE ON THE WATER IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF MONTHS.

4. Is Offshore 1 making it up when he reports that Core is currently working on the AC50's. Or was the Core staff member who told him making it up? Are you saying that Core is not working on the AC50's

I am saying that...yes, there is nothing to say otherwise - from anywhere.

5. In a recent interview by Sailjuice (Andy Rice), Paul Goodison mentions the AC50 series, although admits he doesn't have details. Did he just make that up, or does he at least know something to make him mention it in public?

Paul Goodison has since confirmed to be part of American Magic for the next AC. So he won't be involved in any way

6. Was the President of La Fraglia Vela Malcesine  simply making up the story about being approached by a group headed by Ellison to host and event in the Loius Vuitton Cup in a program that involves Barcelona, Dubai and San Fran. Are you suggesting that they won't be using AC50's for that series?

I'm saying they may have been approached, whether anything came of it, is pure speculation.

We have 6 different sources, 2 of which are in the press, that give us lots of evidence that the AC50 series is currently being put together and will happen. What of the above do you not believe and why

6 different sources...on SA. The same people who would have us believe SBTJ and Oracle were two different teams, and that SBTJ gave no help to Oracle what so ever, and the same people Who's bias towards the Oracle vision is well documented.

End of the day...if you want me to believe you...on the flipside, hear me out. Is it not entirely possible that these "sources" have got their wires crossed and what ever is being built is NOT anything to do with the AC50's, but actually modifications to existing monohulls, boards and parts for AC test boats? I'd definitely find that a lot more likely than what you have suggested, especially given the entry period closes next month, and AC test boats will be launched in the next few months. You have to agree, that sounds like a far more believable story than what you're suggesting.

Somebodies building the parts for the test boats that are being launched in a few months, maybe thats what CORE is building. I would believe that without a doubt. CORE is a highly skilled company with an excellent track record in revolutionary boats. They would jump at the chance to build the first boards for a revolutionary new concept boat. Think about it...CORE builds the first workable boards for the first ever Americas Cup, foiling monohull, or they could build one design boards for a boat that no longer has a future in the Americas Cup

 

Mr SCLARKE do you live in Auckland? its 43min drive up to core and im sure seeing as you are a kiwi you could ask to see Mark Turner  who runs the place and see what they are building. shouldnt be a problem. Do you know who owns Core? do you know the story behind the people or person who runs core? just a question that seeing as you know all about the cup i thought you'd know the connection there. 

Oracle and SBTJ were 100% seperate teams but they did share some things that i can agree on. but all the teams in BDA did share things as far as training together and practice racing went, right or wrong it happened with all teams, even your loved NZ team as i remember did quite a few days lining up with Artemis, no surprise outteridge and burling being great mates, oracle and SBTJ the boat systems were completely diffenent i mean diferent hydro systems, winches, foils, wing systems were quite similar, i mean SBTJ first 50 wing was sea trialled by Oracle. they defo did help each other with training but it was mutually beneficial well until japan was knocked out and did 2 days training with oracle. 


I can say im 100% sure my wires arnt crossed, and i'm willing to wager on it. name your price and we'll wait this out and see who wins. :D 

Im not 100% that core are not building parts for the new AC75 and like you said they are the state of the art facility and could do it without question but knowing the owner id doubt it.  

Correct Me if Im wrong, but I believe Tim Smythe actually runs the place. By the way, before you go getting excited, this is filmed before the Americas Cup.

 

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Just now, sclarke said:

Correct Me if Im wrong, but I believe Tim Smythe actually runs the place. By the way, before you go getting excited, this is filmed before the Americas Cup.

 

"if it breaks, we don't care too much because someone is just going to get wet"

yeah tell that to artemis, fuckwit

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1 hour ago, Monkey said:

I just hope that when the announcement comes, SClarke’s mom realizes what an assclown he he was, and takes away his internet. Maybe he’ll wander out of the basement and realize there’s a cool sailing scene outside. I doubt it, but one can hope. 

I just hope that when the announcement comes - which it won't, because its a figment of your imagination.

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21 hours ago, Anon said:

Not sure of everything that has been said up to this point but I have heard a bunch of facts from a reliable source.

The series will start at the beginning of 2019, the first of 5-6 events will take place in Sydney.

Sydney? The place that cares the least about the Americas Cup and everything about it? Great start. The place who withdrew last time, and couldn't get a team together for what is the closest Americas Cup to them this time? Doubtful. Australia only cares about 100ft Supermaxis, not Americas Cup Catamarans.

There will be 6 boats, 4 will be from Bermuda, 2 will be new.

The boats will be one design apart from the wings as they have different control systems from the cup.

One design apart from the wing? Why? Why make it one design then? And that's not what everyone else who claims they know something about it has said? Apparently they are completely one design so that it comes down to crew work? One design does not mean only certain parts, it negates the one design aspect to have wings (which are the source of the power on the boat) not being one design. So what? They're using the Cup wings (which is expressly forbidden as per the protocol) which are all different, but building new one design platforms? Why not just keep the platforms as well, as they were mostly one design anyway!

Boats will be faster.

Reduced number of grinding pedestals to allow for more sailors, the removed grinders to be replaced by batteries.

you can eliminate grinding pedestals but that does not make room for more sailors, it just gives them less to do.

From what I understand it will be officially announced in the next few weeks.

 

 

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^ Great video from Core. Why anyone thinks these boats are just going to be thrown away is just beyond me - they are cool as fuck. They are the fastest things on the water (around a race course) - don't expect anyone to beat them anytime soon except maybe a kite. They're designed to pop in and out of containers and will probably be sailed with just 4 guys (and/or girls) thanks to the battery assist, so program budgets won't be much more than a TP52 campaign. Moving forward, the 'one design' approach means teams can share development costs (new foils, wing tweaks etc), which all of a sudden puts them on nearly equal footing with the AC campaigns techwise at 1/6th the cost (or less if more teams sign on), never mind the fact that participating teams from AC35 can share their existing IP since there is no longer a reason to keep secrets.

Looking forward to it.

 

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5 hours ago, inebriated said:

"if it breaks, we don't care too much because someone is just going to get wet"

yeah tell that to artemis, fuckwit

did anyone get wet? 

get a bat and fuck up core.

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Just now, barfy said:

did anyone get wet? 

get a bat and fuck up core.

nah, but on pretty similar boats a guy got wet inside

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im not gonna get into ac34. But the bar was raised for load testing in 35, which was the topic of the video; and apart from ETNZ's foils degrading there were no reports of main structure degradation. ETNZ went over the nose with no beam damage. Mono's are far less susceptible to catastrophic structure failure, and don't turn into a heap of twigs if it happens.

Could be part of the rationale for this cycle's design brief?

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14 minutes ago, barfy said:

im not gonna get into ac34. But the bar was raised for load testing in 35, which was the topic of the video; and apart from ETNZ's foils degrading there were no reports of main structure degradation. ETNZ went over the nose with no beam damage. Mono's are far less susceptible to catastrophic structure failure, and don't turn into a heap of twigs if it happens.

Could be part of the rationale for this cycle's design brief?

yeah, for sure

i think maybe a bit of luck was involved with the lack on injuries on the ac50's

imagine if a cyclor hit a stay on the way down

or if the oracle grinder so much as clipped a foil under the boat as he fell

i agree though, i was pushing a few buttons on my first post hahaha

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5 hours ago, barfy said:

Could be part of the rationale for this cycle's design brief?

No

It was a condition of the deal between Bertelli and ETNZ when he gave them money, people and IP. It was agreed the next boat would be a monohull. It really is that simple. ETNZ had the last laugh when they came up with a monohull that effectively works just like a multihull. Instead of beams, there are those long arms that the foils are fitted to. If the leeward one breaks while sailing at speed, you really will see some catastrophic event. While it won't "taco", it will capsize at speed, probably break the mast and end up very messy.

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8 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

No

It was a condition of the deal between Bertelli and ETNZ when he gave them money, people and IP. It was agreed the next boat would be a monohull. It really is that simple. ETNZ had the last laugh when they came up with a monohull that effectively works just like a multihull. Instead of beams, there are those long arms that the foils are fitted to. If the leeward one breaks while sailing at speed, you really will see some catastrophic event. While it won't "taco", it will capsize at speed, probably break the mast and end up very messy.

That's not quite right Dalton was against the cats all along so he would have had monos regardless of Bertelli's so called deal.

The arms that carry the foils are going to be supplied so the design can be conservative and unlikely to break.  The beams for the AC72 were designed by the teams and they had a failure but the beams for the AC50 were one design and they had no failures.

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4 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

That's not quite right Dalton was against the cats all along so he would have had monos regardless of Bertelli's so called deal.

The arms that carry the foils are going to be supplied so the design can be conservative and unlikely to break.  The beams for the AC72 were designed by the teams and they had a failure but the beams for the AC50 were one design and they had no failures.

Terry - there's many that would appreciate it if you didn't bring facts into the debate, it tends to detract from the assertion that ETNZ are just hyper-rich rent boys who do their sugar daddy's bidding. ;-)

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11 hours ago, barfy said:

im not gonna get into ac34. But the bar was raised for load testing in 35, which was the topic of the video; and apart from ETNZ's foils degrading there were no reports of main structure degradation. ETNZ went over the nose with no beam damage. Mono's are far less susceptible to catastrophic structure failure, and don't turn into a heap of twigs if it happens.

Could be part of the rationale for this cycle's design brief?

 

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30 minutes ago, basketcase said:

 

History is not on your side...

How many AC monos have had catastrophic failure vs AC cats, and then also consider amount of time sailed in each

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29 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

History is not on your side...

How many AC monos have had catastrophic failure vs AC cats, and then also consider amount of time sailed in each

well.... off the top of my head its been two pretty spectacular failures on the cat side, the two vids i pulled up, plus young america breaking in half, and a few others that i just cant google for the fuck of it. and for time sailed..... one cycle each. 

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6 minutes ago, basketcase said:

well.... off the top of my head its been two pretty spectacular failures on the cat side, the two vids i pulled up, plus young america breaking in half, and a few others that i just cant google for the fuck of it. and for time sailed..... one cycle each. 

"Mono's are far less susceptible to catastrophic structure failure, and don't turn into a heap of twigs if it happens."

Was the statement you were addressing with those vids, and it still stands as true... limiting it to with one cycle misses the point.

Monos have been sailed in AC for over a century with a typical amount of catastrophic failure, whereas multihulls history is much shorter and already plagued crashes, failures and have the ignominious record of the cup's only death.

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2 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

"Mono's are far less susceptible to catastrophic structure failure, and don't turn into a heap of twigs if it happens."

Was the statement you were addressing with those vids, and it still stands as true... limiting it to with one cycle misses the point.

Monos have been sailed in AC for over a century with a typical amount of catastrophic failure, whereas multihulls history is much shorter and already plagued crashes, failures and have the ignominious record of the cup's only death.

Martin Wizner

and im not limiting it to one cycle, the boats them selves are..... remember back to the iacc days? the v3 boats.... the v 4 boats?

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2 minutes ago, basketcase said:

Martin Wizner

and im not limiting it to one cycle, the boats them selves are..... remember back to the iacc days? the v3 boats.... the v 4 boats?

That is true, Martin's accident was tragic... a failed block I understand - hit him in the head, on a training boat, not an AC boat right?

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5 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

That is true, Martin's accident was tragic... a failed block I understand - hit him in the head, on a training boat, not an AC boat right?

i believe it was an iacc boat, but if you want to go that way (and i dont) clifford the big red dog was a training boat as well.

 

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2 minutes ago, basketcase said:

i believe it was an iacc boat, but if you want to go that way (and i dont) clifford the big red dog was a training boat as well.

 

Nah, I think that's fair enough...

Still stands it took over half a century for a death to occur, and yet with the very first multi-hull AC (Class, not DoG) we had a fatality, and frankly the boat carnage continued...

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1 minute ago, rh2600 said:

Nah, I think that's fair enough...

Still stands it took over half a century for a death to occur, and yet with the very first multi-hull AC (Class, not DoG) we had a fatality, and frankly the boat carnage continued...

there were a lot of reasons for what happened to happen. i dont think it comes down to monos or multies. look up who designed that boat, and have a look at his history.

as for the carnage continuing..... well ok, but the etnz ac 50 capsize was sorted and they were back on  much faster than the otusa boat 1 ac72 flip. and hell.... how many masts did an iacc campiegn go through? those things were just falling out of the sky.

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9 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

No

It was a condition of the deal between Bertelli and ETNZ when he gave them money, people and IP. It was agreed the next boat would be a monohull. It really is that simple. ETNZ had the last laugh when they came up with a monohull that effectively works just like a multihull. Instead of beams, there are those long arms that the foils are fitted to. If the leeward one breaks while sailing at speed, you really will see some catastrophic event. While it won't "taco", it will capsize at speed, probably break the mast and end up very messy.

We don't really know the rationale behind the agreement; but the two men did agree. Perhaps they both have/had similar stakes?

Bertelli liked a return to a more traditional boat, Dalton has a long history of offshore and sees a mono/foiler as being better suited for big conditions.

Have to wait until the book comes out.

And wait ten years and see what the volvo is being racing in.

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9 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

That's not quite right Dalton was against the cats all along so he would have had monos regardless of Bertelli's so called deal.

Again, not quite right. Dalton was against cats for AC34, but subsequent to that he changed his tune and said it woulod be hard to go back to monos because the cats were so good. He then flipped back again because of the deal he did with Bertelli. Even after ETNZ won AC35, Dalton was still saying that cats had to be considered for AC36, even though he knew that the agreement with Bertelli merant they were going back to monos. The problem witrh Dalton is yoiu can never be sure what his position really is. My recent favourite was his insistence that AC36 should be affordable - strange how the only people who think its affordable are those who wrote the protocol and class rule, while everybody else says its the most expensive ever.

14 minutes ago, barfy said:

, Dalton has a long history of offshore and sees a mono/foiler as being better suited for big conditions.

This is so wrong. Have you forgotten he won a RTW race on a big cat? The argument about cats not being suited to the race course in NZ was totally false, because it ignored the obvious fact that the race course will be where ETNZ trained in both their AC72 and their AC50.

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4 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

This is so wrong. Have you forgotten he won a RTW race on a big cat? The argument about cats not being suited to the race course in NZ was totally false, because it ignored the obvious fact that the race course will be where ETNZ trained in both their AC72 and their AC50.

He did race big cats, and has mentioned going down the mine multiple times every night in the Southern Ocean. Without the speed of a foiler. So as you say, he probly knows best.

Don't know if you have any idea of the "back paddock" where the AC50 was trained, but it has no swell whatsoever in almost all conditions. The boys were never out in over 20kt days. I'll bet they are a bit wary of engineering a boat for a small range of conditions, last cycle the limits were too high, GD said as much and was borne out by racing where the boats were literally shedding carbon the entire way around and a good helm like NO couldn't not keep the boat in the track.

Maybe we will get big conditions AC36, maybe not. But I am sure the brief will be wider without wingsails.

 

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13 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

He then flipped back again because of the deal he did with Bertelli. E

 

Still peddling your bullshit Simon...AC36 was always going to be in monohulls if ETNZ won AC35: they did, and it is. Take your hate and fuck off to the Brexit  forum.

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http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/204769/Team-Tilt-returns-to-foiling-at-GC32-Worlds

I wonder how this goes with the "concentrating on the AC" that clearly ETNZ is doing

Quote

Glenn Ashby, mainsail trimmer: "I am really excited to be back sailing with the Team Tilt guys on the GC32 again, and it's great to continue the relationship between Team Tilt, myself and Emirates Team New Zealand.

Why is Ashby doing the GC32? Why does he mention the relationship with ETNZ? Is ETNZ wasting time with something that has no relevance to the AC? ;)

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19 hours ago, surfsailor said:

^ Great video from Core. Why anyone thinks these boats are just going to be thrown away is just beyond me - they are cool as fuck. They are the fastest things on the water (around a race course) - don't expect anyone to beat them anytime soon except maybe a kite. They're designed to pop in and out of containers and will probably be sailed with just 4 guys (and/or girls) thanks to the battery assist, so program budgets won't be much more than a TP52 campaign. Moving forward, the 'one design' approach means teams can share development costs (new foils, wing tweaks etc), which all of a sudden puts them on nearly equal footing with the AC campaigns techwise at 1/6th the cost (or less if more teams sign on), never mind the fact that participating teams from AC35 can share their existing IP since there is no longer a reason to keep secrets.

Looking forward to it.

 

Nobody is denying that the boats are "cool as fuck" but that's not reason to run them outside the AC. They served their purpose and had their time, but their time is up, just as the AC72's had their time, and they were also "cool as fuck" but from all accounts the AC75 will be cools as fuck, so let them have their time. 

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24 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

This is so wrong. Have you forgotten he won a RTW race on a big cat? The argument about cats not being suited to the race course in NZ was totally false, because it ignored the obvious fact that the race course will be where ETNZ trained in both their AC72 and their AC50.

Dalton used a cat for the RTW race because that was the type of boat most suited to the event .. his experience with the cat qualified him to have a useful opinion about using cats in the Hauraki Gulf.

The problem was with the AC50 which was never going to be suitable for an AC event, we saw in Bermuda how poorly the AC50's handled rough conditions, the Hauraki Gulf can be much more severe;  the wide range of weather conditions and potential for large waves means that the AC50 would not be raced enough to keep the interest alive.

ETNZ did most of their training in the AC50 at the sheltered waters known as the "back paddock"  which is an area surrounded by islands and never gets rough.

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45 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

Dalton used a cat for the RTW race because that was the type of boat most suited to the event .. his experience with the cat qualified him to have a useful opinion about using cats in the Hauraki Gulf.

The problem was with the AC50 which was never going to be suitable for an AC event, we saw in Bermuda how poorly the AC50's handled rough conditions, the Hauraki Gulf can be much more severe;  the wide range of weather conditions and potential for large waves means that the AC50 would not be raced enough to keep the interest alive.

ETNZ did most of their training in the AC50 at the sheltered waters known as the "back paddock"  which is an area surrounded by islands and never gets rough.

I remember the start of a big race in Aukland on a windy day and the team was proud to present their AC50, fast and behaving well in those conditions.

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2 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I remember the start of a big race in Aukland on a windy day and the team was proud to present their AC50, fast and behaving well in those conditions.

The video was in the Waitemata Harbour .. They never got past Rangitoto Channel on that occasion.

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32 minutes ago, barfy said:

He did race big cats, and has mentioned going down the mine multiple times every night in the Southern Ocean. Without the speed of a foiler. So as you say, he probly knows best.

Don't know if you have any idea of the "back paddock" where the AC50 was trained, but it has no swell whatsoever in almost all conditions. The boys were never out in over 20kt days. I'll bet they are a bit wary of engineering a boat for a small range of conditions, last cycle the limits were too high, GD said as much and was borne out by racing where the boats were literally shedding carbon the entire way around and a good helm like NO couldn't not keep the boat in the track.

yeah, even peter burling couldn't keep the boat upright

Maybe we will get big conditions AC36, maybe not. But I am sure the brief will be wider without wingsails.

 

if you are saying that these boats will be safer because they are monohulls i am fairly confused

you don't think these will bury bows?

you don't think these will have crew siding off the back?

their probably won't be any cockpits used like the cats, and we saw in the big flip how potentially dangerous 

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1 hour ago, sclarke said:

Nobody is denying that the boats are "cool as fuck" but that's not reason to run them outside the AC. They served their purpose and had their time, but their time is up, just as the AC72's had their time, and they were also "cool as fuck" but from all accounts the AC75 will be cools as fuck, so let them have their time. 

You should probably contact the teams directly to tell them what they are allowed/not allowed to do with their very cool and very fast multimillion dollar boats. 

Lol

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55 minutes ago, inebriated said:

if you are saying that these boats will be safer because they are monohulls i am fairly confused

you don't think these will bury bows?

you don't think these will have crew siding off the back?

their probably won't be any cockpits used like the cats, and we saw in the big flip how potentially dangerous 

They will be ‘safer’ because a MOB will be inside the mainfoils, and outside the single rudder foil. 

They will be ‘less safe’ because of the potential for catastrophic failure with a completely untested concept being executed for the first time on such a grand scale.

The AC50s were fully sorted - a direct result of lessons learnt from the 72s, plus the advantages of downsizing. The AC75s, otoh, will be in largely uncharted territory both from a design and from an operational standpoint. Uncharted = risk.

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1 hour ago, Terry Hollis said:

The video was in the Waitemata Harbour .. They never got past Rangitoto Channel on that occasion.

GD knew very well that they could have modified foil controls with flaps to make the boat more seaworthy. They could also have modified the rule to decrease the wing surface. We have lots of stories of the AC 72 in 30kts of wind and waves to know it was possible with a cat.

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^ Absolutely - the 50s could’ve easily been recalibrated for open water, especially with the addition of batteries. It’s almost a shame someone isn’t carrying on developing and improving those amazing boats that can already foil 100% of the time around a race course...oh, wait - someone IS.

Good times!

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

GD knew very well that they could have modified foil controls with flaps to make the boat more seaworthy. They could also have modified the rule to decrease the wing surface. We have lots of stories of the AC 72 in 30kts of wind and waves to know it was possible with a cat.

Yes of course the cats could have been redesigned for the Hauraki Gulf but then they would not have been AC50's anymore.  I was in favour of going back to the AC62 that was proposed for AC35 but ETNZ have a lot better understanding of the situation than me and they have chosen a radical mono .. good on them I can't wait to see how they go.

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5 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

Yes of course the cats could have been redesigned for the Hauraki Gulf but then they would not have been AC50's anymore.  I was in favour of going back to the AC62 that was proposed for AC35 but ETNZ have a lot better understanding of the situation than me and they have chosen a radical mono .. good on them I can't wait to see how they go.

They could have been modified and be called AC50.

I agree that I can't wait to see the new radical mono. I think the revolution may be the T foil, then the platform is just to enhance their efficiency, whatever they are.

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2 hours ago, surfsailor said:

You should probably contact the teams directly to tell them what they are allowed/not allowed to do with their very cool and very fast multimillion dollar boats. 

Lol

I don't need to. Thats what the protocol is for. And the protocol, among other things, is why it won't happen.

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1 hour ago, Terry Hollis said:

Yes of course the cats could have been redesigned for the Hauraki Gulf but then they would not have been AC50's anymore.  I was in favour of going back to the AC62 that was proposed for AC35 but ETNZ have a lot better understanding of the situation than me and they have chosen a radical mono .. good on them I can't wait to see how they go.

The AC50s wouldn’t have needed to be ‘redesigned’ - just retuned, plus maybe add a second smaller wing for big days.

For ETNZ (irrespective of their deal with LR to switch back to ‘monos’), a bigger issue moving forward would’ve been that the loopholes they exploited to win AC35 (computer driven flight control, Xbox wing control, and the hamsters) would’ve most likely been closed. Their strengths lie in out-of-the-box innovation, so a completely new platform gives them a leg up since it’s a fresh playing field. It’s also important to consider that the LR (arguably the favorite challenger) was deeply involved in their AC35 IT, regardless of whether they created it or just had access - so any advantage there would’ve been mooted at least with regards to LT

Taken in aggregate, this new boat allows them to capitalize on their unique approach, and the players that were key to their success in AC35  - especially Verdier, and the Ashby/Burling combo.

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44 minutes ago, sclarke said:

I don't need to. Thats what the protocol is for. And the protocol, among other things, is why it won't happen.

If ETNZ wanted to be particularly vindictive, I suppose they could prevent members of BAR and the NYYC team from competing in an AC50 circuit using the protocol. They certainly can’t stop anyone else.

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55 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

If ETNZ wanted to be particularly vindictive, I suppose they could prevent members of BAR and the NYYC team from competing in an AC50 circuit using the protocol. They certainly can’t stop anyone else.

The Surrogate yacht definition seems to have been amended from "Monohull" to "Yacht" to exclude teams/ competitors from acquiring, sailing/ testing an AC50 yacht.

 

Surrogate yacht means any yacht exceeding 12m LOA which is capable of producing meaningful design or performance information for use either directly or indirectly in the design, construction or sailing of an AC75 yacht and as further provided in the AC75 Class Rule, but excluding existing class yachts such as TP52's used only for the participation in and preparation for their class or other official regattas.

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48 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

If ETNZ wanted to be particularly vindictive, I suppose they could prevent members of BAR and the NYYC team from competing in an AC50 circuit using the protocol. They certainly can’t stop anyone else.

Now we all know what a nice guy GD is and i just cant see him playing the vindictive card .  Now if he is afraid of the other series taking away from his own shindig then I suppose you could expect him to lawyer up and try to slow things down a bit . 

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^ AC50s are a ‘class yacht’, and since they are one design, they will no longer be a source of ‘meaningful design or performance information’.

So - like I said - ETNZ (if they choose to be vindictive) can probably prevent BAR and/or NYYC from sending sailors to the class, but they can’t stop Oracle, Artemis, FRA etc.

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7 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

^ AC50s are a ‘class yacht’, and since they are one design, they will no longer be a source of ‘meaningful design or performance information’.

So - like I said - ETNZ (if they choose to be vindictive) can probably prevent BAR and/or NYYC from sending sailors to the class, but they can’t stop Oracle, Artemis, FRA etc.

Thats a change of tune. Two days ago, they were the ONLY yacht that could gather meaningful data, and provide meaningful training, now they're no longer a source of any of that. 

AC50's are a "class yacht" which means that class name and brand are property of ETNZ and RNZYS. Any names, branding, equipment, video, images, likenesses and any and all other trademarks are property of Defending Yacht Club RNZYS. 

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19 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Thats a change of tune. Two days ago, they were the ONLY yacht that could gather meaningful data, and provide meaningful training, now they're no longer a source of any of that. 

AC50's are a "class yacht" which means that class name and brand are property of ETNZ and RNZYS. Any names, branding, equipment, video, images, likenesses and any and all other trademarks are property of Defending Yacht Club RNZYS. 

I haven’t posted here in weeks. Are you off your meds again? But to be fair, the AC50s will be EXCELLENT boats to bring sailors new to high end, big boat foiling up to speed. Far better than either TP52s or GC32s or even Superfoilers. So there is that.

And no, ETNZ doesn’t ‘own’ all the AC50s. 

Lol

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8 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

I haven’t posted here in weeks. Are you off your meds again? But to be fair, the AC50s will be EXCELLENT boats to bring sailors new to high end, big boat foiling up to speed. Far better than either TP52s or GC32s or even Superfoilers. So there is that.

And no, ETNZ doesn’t ‘own’ all the AC50s. 

Lol

My bad, its just that you and you friends who have spoken to people close to the series and claim to have "facts" haven't seemed to have spoken to each other. One minute they're One Design, then they're not, then they're one design platforms using existing wings? You guys need to get your facts right, because the facts are always changing.

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4 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

^ Could you show me where I said any of that? Seriously - take your meds.

Before I do that, whats the story? What is it actually, I mean there's a few different people, who have said they have spoken to people "Reliable sources" who have said this and that, they all either don't make sense, or contradict each other, so what are the ACTUAL facts? 

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On 06/05/2018 at 12:03 PM, sclarke said:

Correct Me if Im wrong, but I believe Tim Smythe actually runs the place. By the way, before you go getting excited, this is filmed before the Americas Cup.

 

You didn’t answer my questions either. My take is one design boats and foils, wings as is until they have time to get them sorted. Guessing season 2 or updates during the season. Not changing my story. Still happy to put a wager on it too. 

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6 hours ago, agk470 said:

You didn’t answer my questions either. My take is one design boats and foils, wings as is until they have time to get them sorted. Guessing season 2 or updates during the season. Not changing my story. Still happy to put a wager on it too. 

Whats the question? If you're putting a wager on exactly what you just said, one design platforms and wings as is, I'll happily put a wager on that! 

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16 hours ago, sclarke said:

One minute they're One Design, then they're not, then they're one design platforms using existing wings?

All you seem to be able to do is nit pick. Do you realise that the wings are close enough to each other that nobody is going to be concerned by the differences. The only differences in the wings are the control systems and the only wing that had any meaningful differences won't be there. Maybe it's not your definition of strict one design, but for the rest of the world, we will worry about things that will make a difference to performance. Get the foil package the same and the foil control package the same and you will have boats where the differences in performance are down to the crew. that's all that matters.

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5 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

All you seem to be able to do is nit pick. Do you realise that the wings are close enough to each other that nobody is going to be concerned by the differences. The only differences in the wings are the control systems and the only wing that had any meaningful differences won't be there. Maybe it's not your definition of strict one design, but for the rest of the world, we will worry about things that will make a difference to performance. Get the foil package the same and the foil control package the same and you will have boats where the differences in performance are down to the crew. that's all that matters.

"The only differences in the wings are the control systems" And they are the most important part of the wing. Are you sure the ETNZ wing was the only wing that had meaningful differences? Artemis sure seemed to have a click of speed over both Oracle and Japan, so perhaps their wing is also significantly more efficient than the others. My definition of "One design" is the same definition, or should be, the same definition that everyone else has. One Design means exactly that. You can not call a class "One Design" If they're not One design. One Design does not mean "Close enough" haha

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1 hour ago, sclarke said:

"The only differences in the wings are the control systems" And they are the most important part of the wing. Are you sure the ETNZ wing was the only wing that had meaningful differences? Artemis sure seemed to have a click of speed over both Oracle and Japan, so perhaps their wing is also significantly more efficient than the others. My definition of "One design" is the same definition, or should be, the same definition that everyone else has. One Design means exactly that. You can not call a class "One Design" If they're not One design. One Design does not mean "Close enough" haha

Yet more evidence that you don't know much. Check out how the term one design is used in the sailing world. One design does not mean everything is identical.  Are you really that ignorant?

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31 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

Yet more evidence that you don't know much. Check out how the term one design is used in the sailing world. One design does not mean everything is identical.  Are you really that ignorant?

Thats exactly what it means. Identical boats and sails. If a one design class, you can not have boats sail outside of that class as they would then be deemed non compliant. The GC32's are one design, they are identical. The Volvo 65's are identical, the RC44's are identical. The AC45's were identical, hence the reason Oracle were disqualified. The AC50's not one design, not a one design class. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-Design

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2 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

All you seem to be able to do is nit pick. Do you realise that the wings are close enough to each other that nobody is going to be concerned by the differences.

id sooner have artemis' wing than bar's. what one did you build?

 

 

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35 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Thats exactly what it means. Identical boats and sails. If a one design class, you can not have boats sail outside of that class as they would then be deemed non compliant. The GC32's are one design, they are identical. The Volvo 65's are identical, the RC44's are identical. The AC45's were identical, hence the reason Oracle were disqualified. The AC50's not one design, not a one design class. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-Design

12m, AC50, IACC, TP52, etc. are box rules. Then you get into Stars, Lightning's, etc. that are one design with multiple builders, that could play around with the shape slightly.

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38 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Thats exactly what it means. Identical boats and sails. If a one design class, you can not have boats sail outside of that class as they would then be deemed non compliant. The GC32's are one design, they are identical. The Volvo 65's are identical, the RC44's are identical. The AC45's were identical, hence the reason Oracle were disqualified. The AC50's not one design, not a one design class. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-Design

Thanks for providing that link. Now I suggest you read it. Try this particular part

Quote

In medium- to large-sized boat classes, One-Design would refer to conformance to a standard specification, with the possibility of alterations being allowed as long as they remained within certain tolerances. Examples of this are the Dragon, J/24, Santana 20, Tartan 10, Etchells, J105, Schock 35, C&C Mega 30 One Design[10] and the Farr 40.

In the one design classes listed above, there are those that allow different sailmakers (using different designs) and some that low different mast makers. You are allowed different fit outs of control systems. 

As I said above and is confirmed by the link you provided. "one design" does not have to be identical.

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17 minutes ago, basketcase said:

id sooner have artemis' wing than bar's. what one did you build?

The biggest difference between the 2 was the ability to get hydraulic fluid to the actuators in the wing. As is now well known, BAR had real problems with hydraulics that they never fully solved. By using a battery and the same/similar hydraulic systems, that limitation will be removed and the wings will perform in a very similar manner.

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33 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

Thanks for providing that link. Now I suggest you read it. Try this particular part

In the one design classes listed above, there are those that allow different sailmakers (using different designs) and some that low different mast makers. You are allowed different fit outs of control systems. 

As I said above and is confirmed by the link you provided. "one design" does not have to be identical.

Apples and oranges. These aren't Farr 40's. That rule works for the class as the Farr 40 class incorporates Owner Drivers. The Farr 40 rule is still very strict. If you incorporate the Farr 40 rule with the AC50's, it still would not allow one design platforms with the current wing set ups of the AC50's as they were in Bermuda as they are all very different in terms of control systems and elements. It does not work for the AC50's. The 50's are the top of the mountain when it comes to high performance yachts and do not incorporate owner drivers. However you are correct, but that does not change the fact that unless the AC50 Class is one design, it will not work. On the flipside, as the boats are expensive enough as it is, they will not work as a box rule either.

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3 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Apples and oranges. These aren't Farr 40's. That rule works for the class as the Farr 40 class incorporates Owner Drivers. The Farr 40 rule is still very strict. If you incorporate the Farr 40 rule with the AC50's, it still would not allow one design platforms with the current wing set ups of the AC50's as they were in Bermuda as they are all very different in terms of control systems and elements. It does not work for the AC50's. The 50's are the top of the mountain when it comes to high performance yachts and do not incorporate owner drivers. However you are correct, but that does not change the fact that unless the AC50 Class is one design, it will not work. On the flipside, as the boats are expensive enough as it is, they will not work as a box rule either.

Please explain how an owner-driver class has anything to do with a boat being one design?

 

I cannot decide if you are just the ultimate sailing troll or are actually as retarded as you make yourself seem.

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6 minutes ago, kawalski said:

Please explain how an owner-driver class has anything to do with a boat being one design?

 

I cannot decide if you are just the ultimate sailing troll or are actually as retarded as you make yourself seem.

All you need to know is what works for one class does not mean it will work for another.

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22 hours ago, sclarke said:

I don't need to. Thats what the protocol is for. And the protocol, among other things, is why it won't happen.

Can you share with us the AC50 protocol ?

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23 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Can you share with us the AC50 protocol ?

You mean the AC35 Protocol? Why? its easily found. 

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2 minutes ago, sclarke said:

You mean the AC35 Protocol? Why? its easily found. 

Why, what has the AC35 protocol to do with the AC50 ?

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Why, what has the AC35 protocol to do with the AC50 ?

All trademarks, equipment, images, video and likenesses are property of RNZYS. All equipment, branding names, logo's and trademarks were to be removed from the boats after AC35. That means no promotion of the AC50 (or any likeness of it). The protocol of AC36 forbids any "competitors" from obtaining any yacht exceeding 12m LOA, with the exception of the TP52, so that excludes any Americas Cup competitors, design team members etc from doing anything with an AC50. 

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One design means there is one set of plans, with specified tolerances. 

Some one-designs have a single builder (SMOD = single manufacturer one design). Some have two or more licensed builders. Some allow anyone to build according to the design, within the tolerances.

The models can be mixed and matched, for example some classes have a single hull manufacturer but are open to sail manufacturer. The AC has borrowed this mix and match concept but it has been around in sailing for a long time.

Even SMODs are not identical as all manufacturing is subject to variation. When there are multiple licensed or unlicensed builders and owners can choose the builder, they will certainly compete to build the fastest boat that will measure to class rules.

Yes I know most here know this stuff.

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40 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

One design means there is one set of plans, with specified tolerances. 

Some one-designs have a single builder (SMOD = single manufacturer one design). Some have two or more licensed builders. Some allow anyone to build according to the design, within the tolerances.

The models can be mixed and matched, for example some classes have a single hull manufacturer but are open to sail manufacturer. The AC has borrowed this mix and match concept but it has been around in sailing for a long time.

Even SMODs are not identical as all manufacturing is subject to variation. When there are multiple licensed or unlicensed builders and owners can choose the builder, they will certainly compete to build the fastest boat that will measure to class rules.

Yes I know most here know this stuff.

The point is, this series won't happen unless the boats are identical. But the catch is, no one wants to see them being Identical. 

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Clarkey, the point is, that you are terrified that it might go ahead and succeed and it might detract from the AC in NZL.  I think you would like to have the boats banned and all the sailors in the event also banned if that was possible.

I don't think it will happen but it would be great if it did and it fun speculating.

 

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1 minute ago, Anon said:

The catch is that this series is 100% happening. The teams that built the boats are the ones that own them, not ETNZ. Sure they can't race AC50's, but all they need to do is change the name of the class......... Stop having a hissy fit and complain somewhere else.

There is only one team that is still operational who may still own theirs, and that's Artemis Racing. And they're still undecided whether they're in the AC or not. Until the entry period ends we will never know whether Artemis is in the AC or not, if they are in the AC, they're out. Oracle and Japan have disbanded, and a lot of key team members of both those teams have committed to different teams in the AC. BAR (INEOS Team GB), ETNZ, LR and American Magic will not be involved either, so if it is 100% happening, who is left? Honestly, who is left? 

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2 hours ago, sclarke said:

The point is, this series won't happen unless the boats are identical. But the catch is, no one wants to see them being Identical. 

 

1 hour ago, sclarke said:

There is only one team that is still operational who may still own theirs, and that's Artemis Racing. And they're still undecided whether they're in the AC or not. Until the entry period ends we will never know whether Artemis is in the AC or not, if they are in the AC, they're out. Oracle and Japan have disbanded, and a lot of key team members of both those teams have committed to different teams in the AC. BAR (INEOS Team GB), ETNZ, LR and American Magic will not be involved either, so if it is 100% happening, who is left? Honestly, who is left? 

More stupidity and irrational comments.

Why do you think the series won't happen unless the boats are identical. Anybody with any common sense wouldn't care less if they were identical or not because that is irrelevant. What is more important is whether one boat will be faster than another. Anyway, the owners and people putting up the money have already spoken, because the boats are being modified right now and the series is being put together. they don't seem to care if the boats are identical. You do know there is very little racing where the boats are identical, don't you?

As for the teams, why would anybody need to keep a team together just to do this AC50 series. All you need to do is employ a few sailors for the duration of the racing (plus whatever practice is allowed) and a few shore crew (probably 3) who would also only be employed on a regatta by regatta basis, rather than full time. It doesn't matter if teams have disbanded. Are you really trying to tell me that if Ellison offered work to some sailors and shore crew for the AC50 series they would turn it down because there is no formal team any more.  Why would anybody keep a full team going just for that series? It makes no sense. you don't need designers, boat builders and all the other support staff of a team. You just need a few sailors and shore people.

There are more than enough world class sailors around who haven't signed for AC teams. For starters, it looks like Tom Slingsby and Nathan Outteridge aren't going to be doing the next edition of the AC, and you cannot claim they aren't right at the top (you probably will because you know fuck all). Chris Draper is another who will be sailing and he did a pretty special job for LR in the AC34 ACWS. There are others around as well. If you think that all the best sailors in the world are signed to AC teams, you are even more clueless than i thought.

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2 hours ago, sclarke said:

The point is, this series won't happen unless the boats are identical. But the catch is, no one wants to see them being Identical. 

One thing that puzzles me about this. You think that the Ac with boats that are not the same sailing one on one will be spectacular, yet you think that a fleet of equally fast boats that have had their performance equalised won't be. Most people would think it would be the other way around. Close racing at high speed will always be better than one on one with big gaps, as we saw in the last edition. Most races were a boring procession and it was only a few extraordinary races such as between ETNZ and Artemis that were real edge of the seat stuff.

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7 hours ago, sclarke said:

All trademarks, equipment, images, video and likenesses are property of RNZYS. All equipment, branding names, logo's and trademarks were to be removed from the boats after AC35. That means no promotion of the AC50 (or any likeness of it). The protocol of AC36 forbids any "competitors" from obtaining any yacht exceeding 12m LOA, with the exception of the TP52, so that excludes any Americas Cup competitors, design team members etc from doing anything with an AC50. 

That has nothing to do with your original point.

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7 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

That has nothing to do with your original point.

My original point is, its not going to happen, and those that think they know "the facts" should admit they aren't "Facts" because the facts they keep talking about keep changing. 

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