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Larry's AC50 Circus

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1 minute ago, Anon said:

Copy that floppy, you defiantly know the facts. Just make sure you confirm them on Friday aye, just to be sure... ;)

Sure. Although I'm a little too busy to go looking at 40 foot containers sitting outside gathering dust in Warkworth.

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6 minutes ago, Anon said:

If you spent a little less time hiding from telling the truth on here im sure you could find the time :)

Fixed:)

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4 hours ago, sclarke said:

Sure. Although I'm a little too busy to go looking at 40 foot containers sitting outside gathering dust in Warkworth.

it seems like you have a lot of fucking time to talk shit on here though doesn't it.

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^^If they spent as much time talking about the future, as they do pining for the past, things would be copacetic.

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18 hours ago, maxmini said:

I have a question  , and I am not saying who is correct in this little chat fest , but you are quite sure that this is all a smoke screen and there is no chance of it ever coming off . With that in mind why the massive fixation with trying to prove that to the non believers . Its early Tuesday evening here in the states and I counted 19 posts from you since Sunday on this one subject alone .  Its nice to have a hobby and all  but why not let the event die on its own as you feel it will and diversify your talents just a bit. Its starting to look more like desperation rather than confidence in your position.  Time will tell one way or the other shortly I would guess but to each his own and carry on if you feel you must.

Great question! And one I have no problem what so ever answering. The reason why I am against this series is because the whole notion of it is ridiculously hypocritical. For one, the AC50's and Americas Cup 35 are the past, and the AC75 and Americas Cup 36 are the future, this is what the conversation should be about. Admittedly, the AC50's were very cool boats, but they belong in Americas Cup history, and that's where they should stay.

Secondly, When we look back over the past few Cups, there was, and still is, much talk about Grant Dalton and ETNZ being difficult and not agreeing with the rest, which was perceived as being detrimental to the cup at that time. That may or may not be the case depending on which side of the fence you're on, but the fact remains, through everything, ETNZ, and Grant Dalton, to their credit stayed in the game despite all the efforts by other teams to weaken them, and they got their way by winning the Cup. They didn't dwell on the past, they didn't take their ball and go home (which is what will be the case if this series goes ahead) they didn't pine for the past boats, they promoted each generation of boat that was introduced by Oracle Team USA, whether it be the AC72, the AC62, or the AC50. They went ahead and focused on the future, and did what they had to do to win the Cup, because ultimately, that's how you get your way.

Again, the AC50's were very cool, but the AC75's are also very cool, Ben Ainslie, Grant Simmer, Grant Dalton, Dan Bernasconi and Ray Davies, Terry Hutchinson, Dean Barker, Jimmy Spithill, they have all said the AC75 will be very cool to sail, they are the future. So anyone who wants an AC50 series is simply bitter about the fact that Oracle and its vision is no longer in play.

There is no real reason to introduce an AC50 series, especially now that the 36th cycle is underway, other than to satisfy those who are still bitter from the Bermuda defeat of Oracle. Bitterness over not getting your way is not a good reason to go off and start your own regatta. To say "Because they're cool boats" is hypocritical, because We have a very cool boat now in the AC75, yet they spend no time talking about it, so this speaks to the fact that they don't really want cool boats, because they have "very cool boats", they just want the AC50 in particular, back. Oracle lost, so their vision is dead. They need to accept that. ETNZ won, and decided on a completely new class, so Oracle, and anyone else who didn't win have to design, build and sail an AC75, and win, if they want the AC50 back. 

That may or may not happen depending on the winner of the next cycle. But for now, the AC50 should be consigned to history, as every other cup boat has been, those guys don't talk about the AC72's anymore, and they were also very cool boats, so we don't need to be talking about the AC50's anymore either.

Hopefully that answers your question.

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8 hours ago, sclarke said:

Great question! And one I have no problem what so ever answering. The reason why I am against this series is because the whole notion of it is ridiculously hypocritical. For one, the AC50's and Americas Cup 35 are the past, and the AC75 and Americas Cup 36 are the future, this is what the conversation should be about. Admittedly, the AC50's were very cool boats, but they belong in Americas Cup history, and that's where they should stay.

Secondly, When we look back over the past few Cups, there was, and still is, much talk about Grant Dalton and ETNZ being difficult and not agreeing with the rest, which was perceived as being detrimental to the cup at that time. That may or may not be the case depending on which side of the fence you're on, but the fact remains, through everything, ETNZ, and Grant Dalton, to their credit stayed in the game despite all the efforts by other teams to weaken them, and they got their way by winning the Cup. They didn't dwell on the past, they didn't take their ball and go home (which is what will be the case if this series goes ahead) they didn't pine for the past boats, they promoted each generation of boat that was introduced by Oracle Team USA, whether it be the AC72, the AC62, or the AC50. They went ahead and focused on the future, and did what they had to do to win the Cup, because ultimately, that's how you get your way.

Again, the AC50's were very cool, but the AC75's are also very cool, Ben Ainslie, Grant Simmer, Grant Dalton, Dan Bernasconi and Ray Davies, Terry Hutchinson, Dean Barker, Jimmy Spithill, they have all said the AC75 will be very cool to sail, they are the future. So anyone who wants an AC50 series is simply bitter about the fact that Oracle and its vision is no longer in play.

There is no real reason to introduce an AC50 series, especially now that the 36th cycle is underway, other than to satisfy those who are still bitter from the Bermuda defeat of Oracle. Bitterness over not getting your way is not a good reason to go off and start your own regatta. To say "Because they're cool boats" is hypocritical, because We have a very cool boat now in the AC75, yet they spend no time talking about it, so this speaks to the fact that they don't really want cool boats, because they have "very cool boats", they just want the AC50 in particular, back. Oracle lost, so their vision is dead. They need to accept that. ETNZ won, and decided on a completely new class, so Oracle, and anyone else who didn't win have to design, build and sail an AC75, and win, if they want the AC50 back. 

That may or may not happen depending on the winner of the next cycle. But for now, the AC50 should be consigned to history, as every other cup boat has been, those guys don't talk about the AC72's anymore, and they were also very cool boats, so we don't need to be talking about the AC50's anymore either.

Hopefully that answers your question.

A good and thoughtful reply .

" They didn't dwell on the past, they didn't take their ball and go home (which is what will be the case if this series goes ahead) "

I didn't think that Grant would pull out of the AC if the AC50 series does realize, has he actually made that known ?

As for why the AC 50 verses the AC75 couldn't it just be a case where the logistics for the larger boat make it too inconvenient or expensive of a series compared to the more compact AC50 .

And lastly you do seem fixated on the thought process that the AC50 is all about revenge and that will be the sole reason for its existence.  I really think you are looking at that thru a very narrow window and are in the minority with that viewpoint. With sailing interest on the decline anything that gets eyes on the sport is a good thing and the more the better. The more opportunities for paid positions in the sailing world the better to build upon and attract the future young men and women that can think of it as a possible life long vocation . Sailing has long been trying to attract the young to the sport and its not going as well as it could be possibly as it appears as a hobby with at most a free ride to college then you have to get a real job. There is certainly room for another paying series and anyone that really cares for professional sailing should  support it, support sailing . 

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3 hours ago, maxmini said:

A good and thoughtful reply .

" They didn't dwell on the past, they didn't take their ball and go home (which is what will be the case if this series goes ahead) "

I didn't think that Grant would pull out of the AC if the AC50 series does realize, has he actually made that known ?

As for why the AC 50 verses the AC75 couldn't it just be a case where the logistics for the larger boat make it too inconvenient or expensive of a series compared to the more compact AC50 .

And lastly you do seem fixated on the thought process that the AC50 is all about revenge and that will be the sole reason for its existence.  I really think you are looking at that thru a very narrow window and are in the minority with that viewpoint. With sailing interest on the decline anything that gets eyes on the sport is a good thing and the more the better. The more opportunities for paid positions in the sailing world the better to build upon and attract the future young men and women that can think of it as a possible life long vocation . Sailing has long been trying to attract the young to the sport and its not going as well as it could be possibly as it appears as a hobby with at most a free ride to college then you have to get a real job. There is certainly room for another paying series and anyone that really cares for professional sailing should  support it, support sailing . 

"I didn't think that Grant would pull out of the AC if the AC50 series does realize, has he actually made that known ?" I was referencing the actions of Larry Ellison and Torbjorn Tornquist. If they start an AC50 regatta, that action would be akin to taking their ball and going home because they got beaten fair and square by a better team, and instead of competing to win the trophy back, as GD and ETNZ have done time and time again, they will have thrown in the towel and gone off and started their own competition simply because they were defeated - revenge.

In terms of employment, the AC has become a gravy train to a lot of the current competitors, hence the swapping of talent between teams each cycle. There are plenty of "paying positions" in regattas around the world, the only issue is they don't pay as well as the AC. Its the same reason guys like Steven Adams don't come back and play competitive basketball in New Zealand. Even though there is a position available for him, and he will be paid to play basketball in New Zealand, he won't make half as much as what he'd make playing in the NBA, which is why he turned down the New Zealand jersey. The point is, the positions are available, but the current crop of AC sailors for the most part, tend to stick to the AC because it pays handsomely, not because it pays at all. If the AC sailors themselves were to promote sailing as much as the fans are expected to, you'd think they'd go off and fill those paying positions as opposed to relying on the AC to line their wallets or starting another series. The sailing world has survived just fine without an AC50 series up until now, and will continue to do just that without one into the future. 

I do think that an AC50 series is more about revenge, for the reasons stated above. Another reason is because, as we saw in Bermuda, teams can collaborate together to form a winning team (ETNZ and LR) people talk about Larry Ellison and Torbjorn Tornquist bankrolling the series, so why not pool their resources and bankroll an AC Challenge just as ETNZ and LR did? They proved the collaboration approach can work, then Ellison and Tornquist will have the AC50's back as well as the Americas Cup, with no questions asked. To just go off and start your own regatta because you got beaten in the AC screams "Tantrum" There may be room for another series, but not one built on a foundation of bitterness and "sour grapes" 

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it would be cool to see some sailing in the 50's. but larry is a business asshole, has proved that time and time over with oracle. and he is buthurt.

Will remain to be seen if more than 3 teams pony up the old boats.

and the discussion of OD wings,  what newcomers would build one of these if a large aspect is dev on a box rule for the wing? late date for this from a project management POV.

Waiting. i'm sure the big announcement is around the corner and there will be some great match racing between AR and OR.

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Small point....

The class rule called for the boats to be designed in such a way that they could theoretically be shipped in container/s. You had to show how this could be done e.g. with schematics, to the satisfaction of the MC.

BUT none of the boats were ever actually broken down or moved in containers during AC35 - AFAIK

 

This was SOP....

image.png.503c18a2c3a8ef5e94822ee1ab06c18b.png

(c) RG

If container shipping and the associated breakdown and reassembly was actually expedient, they would have been doing it all along.

So, how realistic is it to keep hammering on that point?

How were they shipped back to CORE? And is making them 'realistically box-able' part of the optimisation?

Anyone....

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27 minutes ago, nav said:

Small point....

The class rule called for the boats to be designed in such a way that they could theoretically be shipped in a container. You had to show how this could be done e.g. with schematics, to the satisfaction of the MC.

BUT none of the boats were ever actually been broken down or moved in containers during AC36 - AFAIK

image.png.503c18a2c3a8ef5e94822ee1ab06c18b.png

(c) RG

How how realistic is it really, to keep hammering on that point?

If it was really expedient, they would have been doing it already, no?

Is that how they got back to CORE?

Anyone....

Nav, there was no “Theory” in it. The boats had to be shown to the MC to be stripped apart. They looked at how, to the point there were limits on potting the beams, limitations on fairing connection not allowed to be glued to show they could be removed to pull apart etc

I know for a fact they fit into 40ft containers 

Hulls in 1. Front beam and pod in 2. Bows, rear beam bow pole in 3. Wing into 4, boards and fairings into 5. 

It was the AC. If you had the option as BAR did to build fit out at home base and then ship without breaking apart then spot on. Legends I’d say.

I think your wrong about the revenge thing. Larry put huge money in to develop the software and the equipment to help make the last 2 cups what they were. His own money. So if he chooses to take all that IT property like live line, the marks boats, the camera cat, the helicopter, the racing software etc and class of 50ft cats that have people interested to make it a more circuit style(think F1) then who are we to say he can’t. They are his toys he can go take them and do what he wants with them. NZ will keep their fastest 50ft cat as you would  

Sclarke you talk like larry should have to try and win it back and TT should have to keep trying to win it. Maybe the blokes are over huge bills with minimal to no return and now larry thinks he has a way to make these boats commercially sustainable. Sell advertising, full branding, no deed of gift restraints, not having to have all teams agree to change simple things. 

The one thing this tour won’t have is the cup. Never will. Because like you said it doesn’t seem like any team will do both, or actually I think you said no teams are allowed to do both so if he pursues this team NZ or any team won’t have to come up against them again. They beat them fair and square so maybe Larry is bowing out saying you win but I don’t want to scrap a dream. Maybe nothing like what I said it’s all just speculating. 

What about guys that don’t have a cup job, well signed seat? Why shouldn’t they have an option to race whatever they want. If those guys want to help push a 50 tour why can’t they. 

So your going up near core but not going to see if they have something going on? Nothing? 

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You have added nothing factually new ^ I don't think, and unless you can show one of the AC50s actually in a container during AC35, then it was nothing but theoretical and according to the requirements of the ACC Rule - as I said.

Maybe I'm misremembering them all arriving fully built up?

 

Working at CORE? Do you know anything about the actual transportation plans for the LV Spite Cup or not?

 

I think your (sic) wrong about the revenge thing. Is this directed at me?

 

 

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Exactly, that's ^ the little CIC bit. Not coincidentally also the amount you needed off to get it in a std box :D and the bit most likely to be wrecked and needing to be replaced (AKA 'the BA bow section'), so all good, if 'DOG dubious' and little if ever used, planning.

 

But you have made my point....

These boats do break down very well, but obviously it would be easier to just ship the boat in one piece so it is all ready to go at the other end, but alot more expensive.

So what has changed?

 

 

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10 hours ago, sclarke said:

"I didn't think that Grant would pull out of the AC if the AC50 series does realize, has he actually made that known ?" I was referencing the actions of Larry Ellison and Torbjorn Tornquist. If they start an AC50 regatta, that action would be akin to taking their ball and going home because they got beaten fair and square by a better team, and instead of competing to win the trophy back, as GD and ETNZ have done time and time again, they will have thrown in the towel and gone off and started their own competition simply because they were defeated - revenge.

In terms of employment, the AC has become a gravy train to a lot of the current competitors, hence the swapping of talent between teams each cycle. There are plenty of "paying positions" in regattas around the world, the only issue is they don't pay as well as the AC. Its the same reason guys like Steven Adams don't come back and play competitive basketball in New Zealand. Even though there is a position available for him, and he will be paid to play basketball in New Zealand, he won't make half as much as what he'd make playing in the NBA, which is why he turned down the New Zealand jersey. The point is, the positions are available, but the current crop of AC sailors for the most part, tend to stick to the AC because it pays handsomely, not because it pays at all. If the AC sailors themselves were to promote sailing as much as the fans are expected to, you'd think they'd go off and fill those paying positions as opposed to relying on the AC to line their wallets or starting another series. The sailing world has survived just fine without an AC50 series up until now, and will continue to do just that without one into the future. 

I do think that an AC50 series is more about revenge, for the reasons stated above. Another reason is because, as we saw in Bermuda, teams can collaborate together to form a winning team (ETNZ and LR) people talk about Larry Ellison and Torbjorn Tornquist bankrolling the series, so why not pool their resources and bankroll an AC Challenge just as ETNZ and LR did? They proved the collaboration approach can work, then Ellison and Tornquist will have the AC50's back as well as the Americas Cup, with no questions asked. To just go off and start your own regatta because you got beaten in the AC screams "Tantrum" There may be room for another series, but not one built on a foundation of bitterness and "sour grapes" 

Although I disagree with most of that, I understand what’s creating your misguided view now, so will stay polite. Where you’re misleading yourself is when you talk about Larry and Torben bailing out when Grant didn’t. Grant never bailed because it’s a job. He isn’t the billionaire sponsor. He’s an employee. Larry and Torben decided to have fun with their money elsewhere. If Grant decides to have fun elsewhere, he has to start applying for jobs. 

None of that is meant as an insult to Grumpy. There are just wildly different team dynamics going on that affect choices. Larry spent a fortune for many cycles, got his ass kicked for awhile, won it, defended it, lost it, and probably got bored with the whole mess. Rich people are weird. Regardless, Larry has probably thrown more money at the Cup than any other individual over his run, but you can’t expect that to last forever. 

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35 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Although I disagree with most of that, I understand what’s creating your misguided view now, so will stay polite. Where you’re misleading yourself is when you talk about Larry and Torben bailing out when Grant didn’t. Grant never bailed because it’s a job. He isn’t the billionaire sponsor. He’s an employee. Larry and Torben decided to have fun with their money elsewhere. If Grant decides to have fun elsewhere, he has to start applying for jobs. 

None of that is meant as an insult to Grumpy. There are just wildly different team dynamics going on that affect choices. Larry spent a fortune for many cycles, got his ass kicked for awhile, won it, defended it, lost it, and probably got bored with the whole mess. Rich people are weird. Regardless, Larry has probably thrown more money at the Cup than any other individual over his run, but you can’t expect that to last forever. 

I understand that Larry may want to have fun with his money, as he's won it, defended it and got his ass kicked. When you say "Fun" Wouldn't it be more "Fun" to spend millions on a boat he can actually have fun with? Is there really fun in paying some young hot shots to travel around the world sailing a boat that he can't? If he was going to do that, wouldn't it be a much better idea to bankroll an AC challenge and get the trophy back? Essentially that's what he would be paying for, some young hot shots to sail a boat he can't, except the payoff would be winning the AC. 

Bankrolling an AC50 circuit he has no guarantee of winning makes no sense, unless you're keen to pay for someone else to sail a boat that you can't, and winning a competition and a trophy, that you paid for, while losing again. 

In terms of Tornquist, he hasn't won anything. In fact his two campaigns have been largely disappointing so he isn't in the same boat (no pun intended) as Larry Ellison. And there's no guarantee he'll win that either, so again, what kind of return does it provide? Wouldn't it be a better idea to try and win something that actually matters?

It was well documented in AC35 that Ellison was no longer prepared to squander his fortune on the Americas Cup, and was proven when he quit the AC after the Bermuda defeat. Why he would be prepared to squander his fortune on a series that has no prestige or hstory seems stupid, and though billionaires may be weird, they're not stupid with their money. You don't become a billionaire by being stupid with money.

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2 hours ago, sclarke said:

Why he would be prepared to squander his fortune on a series that has no prestige or hstory seems stupid, and though billionaires may be weird, they're not stupid with their money. You don't become a billionaire by being stupid with money.

Ok I understand you are from NZ and so your view is a bit skewed. The AC is not the be all and end all of sailing. Don't get me wrong. I love the AC. But there are lots of billionaires who fund sailing who have 0 interest in the AC. Just look at the Oz maxi owners. The AC is the biggest money pit in sailing.

Maybe LE and RC's vision of an AC50 world series and the protocol was their dream of an ideal sailing circuit more than their dream for the AC. Quite possibly losing the cup is the best thing to happen to this circuit. Now the boats can be standardized, the participation cost is lowered, it doesn't matter who wins the series goes on. I think it is going to be a lot more attractive to existing and new sailing teams than an AC cup campaign. Cutting edge sailing at maybe a tenth of the budget of an AC campaign.

I don't agree with your point that old AC boats should just go and die in a corner. There is an entire thread on this forum dedicated to old AC boats and what a shame it is to see them rotting away. And most of those boats are old IACC dinosaurs. Those boats were so far into their design corner that they were never going to survive outside the AC. The 50s on the other hand are still the fastest most high performance boats on the water.

Do I watch the GC32/Extreme sailing series? No. Would I tune in for an AC50 series? Fuck yes. Do I care that it's not for the Americas Cup? Not even a little bit.

 

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16 hours ago, nav said:

You have added nothing factually new ^ I don't think, and unless you can show one of the AC50s actually in a container during AC35, then it was nothing but theoretical and according to the requirements of the ACC Rule - as I said.

Maybe I'm misremembering them all arriving fully built up?  Only BAR turned up fully built, all the rest came in 40ft containers and left the island in 40 ft contsiners

 

Working at CORE? Do you know anything about the actual transportation plans for the LV Spite Cup or not? I dont work at core but i know people there and they will be shipping the boats in 40ft containers after each event

 

I think your (sic) wrong about the revenge thing. Is this directed at me? Not at all, SCLARKE mainly i just dont agree, no biggie, just my opinion vs another persons. 

 

 

 

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19 hours ago, sclarke said:

"I didn't think that Grant would pull out of the AC if the AC50 series does realize, has he actually made that known ?" I was referencing the actions of Larry Ellison and Torbjorn Tornquist. If they start an AC50 regatta, that action would be akin to taking their ball and going home because they got beaten fair and square by a better team, and instead of competing to win the trophy back, as GD and ETNZ have done time and time again, they will have thrown in the towel and gone off and started their own competition simply because they were defeated - revenge.

In terms of employment, the AC has become a gravy train to a lot of the current competitors, hence the swapping of talent between teams each cycle. There are plenty of "paying positions" in regattas around the world, the only issue is they don't pay as well as the AC. Its the same reason guys like Steven Adams don't come back and play competitive basketball in New Zealand. Even though there is a position available for him, and he will be paid to play basketball in New Zealand, he won't make half as much as what he'd make playing in the NBA, which is why he turned down the New Zealand jersey. The point is, the positions are available, but the current crop of AC sailors for the most part, tend to stick to the AC because it pays handsomely, not because it pays at all. If the AC sailors themselves were to promote sailing as much as the fans are expected to, you'd think they'd go off and fill those paying positions as opposed to relying on the AC to line their wallets or starting another series. The sailing world has survived just fine without an AC50 series up until now, and will continue to do just that without one into the future. 

I do think that an AC50 series is more about revenge, for the reasons stated above. Another reason is because, as we saw in Bermuda, teams can collaborate together to form a winning team (ETNZ and LR) people talk about Larry Ellison and Torbjorn Tornquist bankrolling the series, so why not pool their resources and bankroll an AC Challenge just as ETNZ and LR did? They proved the collaboration approach can work, then Ellison and Tornquist will have the AC50's back as well as the Americas Cup, with no questions asked. To just go off and start your own regatta because you got beaten in the AC screams "Tantrum" There may be room for another series, but not one built on a foundation of bitterness and "sour grapes" 

As we are all entitled to our opinions my take on Larry leaving is a bit different than yours . When questions arose during AC 34 as to how long might Larry play the AC game I said several times that I thought he would play until he became bored or lost or both . He has been to the " top " of the mountain twice and certainly has nothing else to prove . The fact that after ten years someone moves on to another quest can not be written off to revenge. It was easy to see during the last Cup that he was losing interest, he was less involved and the team actually had , God forbid , a budget of all things. We will never know of course but had Oracle won I would have given it 50/ 50 odds whether Larry would have stayed in the game . The old BOY has a LOT going on and time is running out . With that kind of money you want to grab all the gusto you can and after ten years anything gets stale when you have so many other choices. The AC 50s are pocket change compared to the AC Cup and he obviously still enjoys sailing to a degree but just not enough to go after somethings hes already done, TWICE .

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So I got back from Auckland a little while ago, sadly I didn't get out to CORE as I had the wife with Me, and she wasn't too keen on going up to Warkworth simply to look at a few 40ft containers. We did however get out to Westhaven and called into the RNZYS. Got a couple of photo's with the Louis Vuitton Cup and the AC. The Wife wanted to get a Coffee so we ended up going up to the bar where I got chatting with a couple of guys about the upcoming AC. They were seriously pissed with the treatment of the NZ Marine Industry by groups like SSOH and even by Council, even calling it a "disgrace" but glad an arrangement has been agreed. A couple of interesting points...word around the dock is that at this stage there will be at least 6 teams, and from what they've heard, Artemis is in. Second point was that indeed, there was serious talk of an AC50 series happening, and Coutts was lined up for the top job, but from what they've heard Coutts has turned down the offer due to his commitments with the Manly Club, among other things, and just wants to do "something different" apparently he's happy and content with the work he's doing with the kids at his club. Also "Backers" wanted more of an investment in the series than LV was prepared to give, so from what they've heard its been canned. Their money is on a Luna Rossa/ ETNZ match.

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15 minutes ago, sclarke said:

and from what they've heard, Artemis is in

I am seeing Ian Percy this evening, so I will let him know ;)

16 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Second point was that indeed, there was serious talk of an AC50 series happening

What a surprise. Better make the most of your posting opportunities, because once the announcement is made......

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17 minutes ago, sclarke said:

So I got back from Auckland a little while ago, sadly I didn't get out to CORE as I had the wife with Me, and she wasn't too keen on going up to Warkworth simply to look at a few 40ft containers. We did however get out to Westhaven and called into the RNZYS. Got a couple of photo's with the Louis Vuitton Cup and the AC. The Wife wanted to get a Coffee so we ended up going up to the bar where I got chatting with a couple of guys about the upcoming AC. They were seriously pissed with the treatment of the NZ Marine Industry by groups like SSOH and even by Council, even calling it a "disgrace" but glad an arrangement has been agreed. A couple of interesting points...word around the dock is that at this stage there will be at least 6 teams, and from what they've heard, Artemis is in. Second point was that indeed, there was serious talk of an AC50 series happening, and Coutts was lined up for the top job, but from what they've heard Coutts has turned down the offer due to his commitments with the Manly Club, among other things, and just wants to do "something different" apparently he's happy and content with the work he's doing with the kids at his club. Also "Backers" wanted more of an investment in the series than LV was prepared to give, so from what they've heard its been canned. Their money is on a Luna Rossa/ ETNZ match.

Do you have a link or a press release for these assertions? .. :)

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4 hours ago, agk470 said:

 

Well.. technically ETNZ didn't bring theirs over in a 40ft container ;-) though I suspect it went home in one.

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5 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

Do you have a link or a press release for these assertions? .. :)

Nope, but then again, I take what I heard with a grain of salt. Its hear/say. The difference is, I'm not going to go making wild claims and say this is confirmed, and thats not, because someone told me. Its dock talk, its hear/ say, rumour, chinese whispers, what ever you want to call it. I'm not going to believe it until I see it. I don't know whether its true or not. But then again, I don't care either.

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18 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

I am seeing Ian Percy this evening, so I will let him know ;)

What a surprise. Better make the most of your posting opportunities, because once the announcement is made......

There's a huge difference between talking about it, and actually doing it.

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48 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

I am seeing Ian Percy this evening, so I will let him know ;)

Are you sure about that? Just heading to the local are ya?

What a surprise. Better make the most of your posting opportunities, because once the announcement is made......

I'll be posting for a long time yet mate. Long after the beginning of September anyway.

 

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4 hours ago, sclarke said:

So I got back from Auckland a little while ago, sadly I didn't get out to CORE as I had the wife with Me, and she wasn't too keen on going up to Warkworth simply to look at a few 40ft containers. We did however get out to Westhaven and called into the RNZYS. Got a couple of photo's with the Louis Vuitton Cup and the AC. The Wife wanted to get a Coffee so we ended up going up to the bar where I got chatting with a couple of guys about the upcoming AC. They were seriously pissed with the treatment of the NZ Marine Industry by groups like SSOH and even by Council, even calling it a "disgrace" but glad an arrangement has been agreed. A couple of interesting points...word around the dock is that at this stage there will be at least 6 teams, and from what they've heard, Artemis is in. Second point was that indeed, there was serious talk of an AC50 series happening, and Coutts was lined up for the top job, but from what they've heard Coutts has turned down the offer due to his commitments with the Manly Club, among other things, and just wants to do "something different" apparently he's happy and content with the work he's doing with the kids at his club. Also "Backers" wanted more of an investment in the series than LV was prepared to give, so from what they've heard its been canned. Their money is on a Luna Rossa/ ETNZ match.

hmmmm

luna rossa/ ETNZ match AND artemis will be in?

one can happen

not both hahahaha

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10 hours ago, agk470 said:
Maybe I'm misremembering them all arriving fully built up?  Only BAR turned up fully built, all the rest came in 40ft containers and left the island in 40 ft contsiners

Working at CORE? Do you know anything about the actual transportation plans for the LV Spite Cup or not? I dont work at core but i know people there and they will be shipping the boats in 40ft containers after each event

Thanks for the reply.

I see someone ^ is disputing the shipping to AC35 bit already. I should try to dig up some photos, to check one way or the other.

Is the plan for the 'the series' to use a common team to do all the assembly, prep, repair and re-boxing then - VOR style. Would save a fortune, maybe take longer, but if the lead times are reasonable.....

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7 hours ago, nav said:

Thanks for the reply.I see someone ^ is disputing the shipping to AC35 bit already. I should try to dig up some photos, to check one way or the other.

Wasn't the ETNZ boat flown in unassembled? I don't think they bothered to remove the bows, but they could have done very easily if they wanted to.

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9 hours ago, nav said:

Thanks for the reply.

I see someone ^ is disputing the shipping to AC35 bit already. I should try to dig up some photos, to check one way or the other.

Is the plan for the 'the series' to use a common team to do all the assembly, prep, repair and re-boxing then - VOR style. Would save a fortune, maybe take longer, but if the lead times are reasonable.....

Spot on, I'm lead to believe the series will have a common shore style with each team running their own smaller shore crew quite similar to the volvo set up.

I can 100% assure the masses that all except BAR arrived un assembled, I mean I'm sure they were put together at their respective home bases first but they arrived in either 40ft containers or in the hold of a plane! either way the boats did come apart and will go back together. Were they easy to do...hell no. will they be easy to put together? hell no but that the fun in it, if it were easy everyone would do it. 

All bows were bolt on and had to be removable, they were a ring frame flange style connection and actually were not allowed to be faired in either. so they were 100% a seperate part. 

Isnt Perce at the RC44's in Portorož, Slovenia? 

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30 minutes ago, agk470 said:

Spot on, I'm lead to believe the series will have a common shore style with each team running their own smaller shore crew quite similar to the volvo set up.

I can 100% assure the masses that all except BAR arrived un assembled, I mean I'm sure they were put together at their respective home bases first but they arrived in either 40ft containers or in the hold of a plane! either way the boats did come apart and will go back together. Were they easy to do...hell no. will they be easy to put together? hell no but that the fun in it, if it were easy everyone would do it. 

All bows were bolt on and had to be removable, they were a ring frame flange style connection and actually were not allowed to be faired in either. so they were 100% a seperate part. 

Isnt Perce at the RC44's in Portorož, Slovenia? 

Apparently he has time to take out of the RC44 schedule to see Team_GBR

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4 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Apparently he has time to take out of the RC44 schedule to see Team_GBR

sounds like he does, Team_GBR is probably there and involved as he appears to sail and is quite informed so wouldn't surprise at all to know he or she is involved in the 44 circuit in one way or another. 

theres plenty of down time at those regattas especially with the limited wind they have been getting, although this mornings racing was quite nice untill it died out.

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On 5/8/2018 at 7:39 PM, sclarke said:

None of which are fact and are clearly hear/ say.

Just because there has not been a press release doesn't negate the fact that these are facts. As someone who works in the industry, and is directly affected by the F50, a lot of that list is fact, it is just not announced. 

Red Bull and Alinghi both looked at entering teams, but declined for different reasons. As I understand it there will be 5 teams on the first start line in early 2019.

LE is funding almost all of the early events to get it up and running. It will be interesting to see how long he allows that to go on for. 

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4 hours ago, Potter said:

LE is funding almost all of the early events to get it up and running. It will be interesting to see how long he allows that to go on for. 

So much like AC35

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Larry won't fund it. The guy isn't stupid. Oracle Team USA is dead and buried so he doesn't even have a dog in the race. He's not going to blow his fortune just to be a spectator. Funding everything from teams to boats to race organisation to race officials to transport logistics to venue and coverage costs is ridiculous. 

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8 hours ago, Potter said:

Just because there has not been a press release doesn't negate the fact that these are facts. As someone who works in the industry, and is directly affected by the F50, a lot of that list is fact, it is just not announced. 

Red Bull and Alinghi both looked at entering teams, but declined for different reasons. As I understand it there will be 5 teams on the first start line in early 2019.

LE is funding almost all of the early events to get it up and running. It will be interesting to see how long he allows that to go on for. 

Early 2019? not going to happen. 

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31 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Larry won't fund it. The guy isn't stupid. Oracle Team USA is dead and buried so he doesn't even have a dog in the race. He's not going to blow his fortune just to be a spectator. Funding everything from teams to boats to race organisation to race officials to transport logistics to venue and coverage costs is ridiculous. 

Larry isn't stupid but you are. Why does it matter that OR is dead and buried? You do not need an AC style team to compete in this event. You simply need to contract some sailors and support staff for the duration of the sailing, like most VRO's do with their sailing. As for him blowing his fortune, do you know how rich he is? You do realise that he earns something like $50m a week from his dividends etc. The cost of funding the whole thing is pocket change for Larry. As for him not doing it because he would just be a spectator, I didn't realise he was a professional tennis player, because he owns the Indian Wells Masters Tennis tournament, or is it because of his love of tennis?

You are correct that Ellison isn't funding the AC50 series He is jointly funding the boat development with Torbjorn Tornqvist, and they are underwriting the costs of the rest of the series. As they already have a major sponsor signed up, and other teams, their underwriting responsibilities are unlikely to lead them to need to spend much more.What's the most Larry might be spending? It's hard to see it being more than $15-20m which is half a week's earnings or 0.033% of his net worth. That really sounds like "blowing his fortune":lol:

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3 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

Larry isn't stupid but you are. Why does it matter that OR is dead and buried? You do not need an AC style team to compete in this event. You simply need to contract some sailors and support staff for the duration of the sailing, like most VRO's do with their sailing. As for him blowing his fortune, do you know how rich he is? You do realise that he earns something like $50m a week from his dividends etc. The cost of funding the whole thing is pocket change for Larry. As for him not doing it because he would just be a spectator, I didn't realise he was a professional tennis player, because he owns the Indian Wells Masters Tennis tournament, or is it because of his love of tennis?

You are correct that Ellison isn't funding the AC50 series He is jointly funding the boat development with Torbjorn Tornqvist, and they are underwriting the costs of the rest of the series. As they already have a major sponsor signed up, and other teams, their underwriting responsibilities are unlikely to lead them to need to spend much more.What's the most Larry might be spending? It's hard to see it being more than $15-20m which is half a week's earnings or 0.033% of his net worth. That really sounds like "blowing his fortune":lol:

The only stupid person is you. No matter how many logical arguments you get told. The only one you have is Larry will because he can. And "because they're cool. This seems to be the only argument from the wishful thinkers, its join the dots circumstantial stuff. You guys are absolutely hanging your hat on the fact that Larry Ellison is a billionaire so he can afford to lose a few hundred million dollars because its just chump change. Billionaires don't get rich by blowing their fortunes. The Indian Wells Fargo Tennis Tournament is a guaranteed investment, with a guaranteed extremely lucrative return with 450,000 visitors in 2015. A tournament with a global guaranteed audience, a sustainable future, a prestigious history and the Sport of Tennis is huge globally. An AC50 series is none of these, it has no prestige, no global audience, the audience it may have is not guaranteed or sustainable, as we saw with the ACWS, and the sport in general, as well as Oracle Team USA, lets be honest, don't have the greatest reputation. The two can not be compared. 

Here are the "Facts" we know so far: There are no teams, no sponsors, no backers, no boats, no money and no interest. These are the only "Facts" we know.

 

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1 hour ago, sclarke said:

The only stupid person is you. No matter how many logical arguments you get told. The only one you have is Larry will because he can. And "because they're cool. This seems to be the only argument from the wishful thinkers, its join the dots circumstantial stuff. You guys are absolutely hanging your hat on the fact that Larry Ellison is a billionaire so he can afford to lose a few hundred million dollars because its just chump change. Billionaires don't get rich by blowing their fortunes. The Indian Wells Fargo Tennis Tournament is a guaranteed investment, with a guaranteed extremely lucrative return with 450,000 visitors in 2015. A tournament with a global guaranteed audience, a sustainable future, a prestigious history and the Sport of Tennis is huge globally. An AC50 series is none of these, it has no prestige, no global audience, the audience it may have is not guaranteed or sustainable, as we saw with the ACWS, and the sport in general, as well as Oracle Team USA, lets be honest, don't have the greatest reputation. The two can not be compared. 

Here are the "Facts" we know so far: There are no teams, no sponsors, no backers, no boats, no money and no interest. These are the only "Facts" we know.

 

No announcements agreed but the following?

No teams? I know of 4 teams personally, one of which is also has a member signed to a cup team so there must be away around said rule at this stage. 

No sponsors? I know of one major sponsor in. 

No Backers? Again I know of 2 being TT and LE for now. 

No boats? AR, OR, SBTJ, BAR and 2 new boats. How is that no boats? 

No money? Larry Ellison is in the top 20 richest people in the world no? 

No interest? How do you figure that? Any of the sailors or shore crew from AC35 who aren’t working on AC36 would certainly be keen, the fact there are discussions on here and as you said  “dock talk” in NZ as there is around the globe means there is some interest in it. 

You keep saying Larry isn’t stupid with his money yeah and I 100% agree. Is it so far fetched that he has business people running numbers and they are looking at making this financial sustainable by selling sponsorship and televising? It will be the same story as when Bernie ran F1. Did it cost him a lot. Yep. Did he get to control his vision. Yep. Maybe Larry is happy to spend 50mil for a few years as he develops his brand and get a decent return. Might simply be a business decision.  

Just a different idea to consider. All speculation as to what Larry does with his $$$ he’s no spring chicken maybe he’s at a point he thing, bugger it may as well spend it. 

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1 hour ago, Anon said:

@sclarke Just because you have not made it in this sailing world that does not mean that other people on this site haven't, behind these screen names you have no idea who the person could be. It is very likely that people on here who know things have contacts or may even be working or sailing on these boats, who knows. You talk so much shit to people and claim that no one has any facts, yet you would be the last person on this planet to know that this was happening. 

Which is why I don't insult people when they post, unless they insult Me. If its very likely, its entirely possible that its very unlikely as well. Since you guys keep claiming this is confirmed, 6 teams are locked in, how about you provide some substance for these claims? So far its 6 teams, don't know who, one major sponsor, don't know who, yet? Surely if you know of these things, you must know who they are?? If there was something to this story, if people and teams are locked in, surely there would be some kind of dock talk somewhere where there are teams looking for sponsors, I mean there is exactly that for the AC, a second American Team has had updates now since it was first mentioned, and they're not even confirmed! Surely if this series is all go, and has the green light, and teams are locked in, either Louis Vuitton, or who ever their major sponsor is, a team, or its individual members, financial backers, race officials, and or Race Organisers would be hard at work promoting the thing! If you look at it, any team participating in this thing would be brand new, as there is only one team left operational from Bermuda, and thats Artemis Racing, or a team which is already participating on another circuit, possibly from the GC32 series, but even then they would be talking by now, but there's nothing, not a thing, not even a whisper. You have to admit that is strange. Any new boat, or new class, which this apparently is, or will have to be, is usually promoted long before racing, but it seems this class isn't. Its very strange

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11 minutes ago, Anon said:

This event isn't starting next week, its next year so why would it need to be announced officially yet? All the people that need to know what is going on know. I know exactly who the sponsor is, but i'm going going to tell the world because it is not my place to say. You also said "Larry won't fund it. The guy isn't stupid." but this style of sailing was his vision and what he wanted to see, just because Oracle has lost the cup that means its all over? Why would someone with the funds just let his vision go down the drain? You seem to only think that the only good sailors and teams are the ones in the AC, you are completely delusional.

 

The sad thing is someone could tell you all the teams, sailors on those teams and give you all the proof, but you aren't going to believe it until you see them race for the first time. I don't think you will even have an open mind when its announced....

If you know who it is, surely someone else must know! Surely it wouldn't be the huge secret it is if the main sponsor is signed? Why not just tell us who you think it is? Question: Is Oracle Team USA still alive?

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Serious question: So this "AC50 world series" is going to go head to head with the Americas Cup world series in 2019? From all accounts this thing (if it happens at all) is going to kick off in the 2nd half of 2019, as is the Americas Cup World Series. Then we're into Christmas 2019 and the second boat is launched the following February. To say it is not intended as a "rival series" to the AC is plain incorrect, as that's exactly what it intends to be.

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2 hours ago, sclarke said:

Serious question: So this "AC50 world series" is going to go head to head with the Americas Cup world series in 2019? From all accounts this thing (if it happens at all) is going to kick off in the 2nd half of 2019, as is the Americas Cup World Series. Then we're into Christmas 2019 and the second boat is launched the following February. To say it is not intended as a "rival series" to the AC is plain incorrect, as that's exactly what it intends to be.

Serious answer  

I haven’t looked at the America’s cup World Series as of yet, do we have dates and venues? Are they planning on using the AC75’s? That will be a pretty wicked tour also. Logistical nightmare but awesome none the less. 

I believe it’s been said here the 50 circuit will start feb 2019 in Sydney not late 2019 And have a season under its belt by Christmas 2019  

What would the second AC boat have to do with anything? Not quite sure where your going with that? By my memory the teams were not allowed to use the 2 boats together? I’m actually quite sure I read that wrong as it’s the whole point of 2 boats to train in house. 

  The AC is 2021 in NZ  so to be a rival would it not only need to clash directly with the dates of the Prada challenger series(ex LV challenger series) and the cup therefor giving teams and sailors the ultimatum of doing one or the other?

is a 50 tour rival to the AC World Series? Unless they have directly clashing dates I don’t believe so. 

Does the protocol written by ETNZ and LR directly forbid sailing in other series? If so wouldn’t that be the AC making it an issue not the 50’s? 

For record I thought AC35 was rediculous limiting what teams were allowed to sail in. its rediculous if a team wants to go spend more and train/race in whatever they want then they should as long as they turn up to ACWS, the LV/Prada challenger series and the cup itself,  why should it matter what they do if a team chooses not to do other events won’t they be better in the AC boat theoretically rather than teams that cross train? 

 

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36 minutes ago, agk470 said:

Serious answer  

I haven’t looked at the America’s cup World Series as of yet, do we have dates and venues? Are they planning on using the AC75’s? That will be a pretty wicked tour also. Logistical nightmare but awesome none the less. 

I believe it’s been said here the 50 circuit will start feb 2019 in Sydney not late 2019 And have a season under its belt by Christmas 2019  

What would the second AC boat have to do with anything? Not quite sure where your going with that? By my memory the teams were not allowed to use the 2 boats together? I’m actually quite sure I read that wrong as it’s the whole point of 2 boats to train in house. 

  The AC is 2021 in NZ  so to be a rival would it not only need to clash directly with the dates of the Prada challenger series(ex LV challenger series) and the cup therefor giving teams and sailors the ultimatum of doing one or the other?

is a 50 tour rival to the AC World Series? Unless they have directly clashing dates I don’t believe so. 

Does the protocol written by ETNZ and LR directly forbid sailing in other series? If so wouldn’t that be the AC making it an issue not the 50’s? 

For record I thought AC35 was rediculous limiting what teams were allowed to sail in. its rediculous if a team wants to go spend more and train/race in whatever they want then they should as long as they turn up to ACWS, the LV/Prada challenger series and the cup itself,  why should it matter what they do if a team chooses not to do other events won’t they be better in the AC boat theoretically rather than teams that cross train? 

 

I am sorry about the down vote .. I had intended to give your an upvote but I messed it up .. your piece is well written and I agree with it fully.

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1 hour ago, Terry Hollis said:

I am sorry about the down vote .. I had intended to give your an upvote but I messed it up .. your piece is well written and I agree with it fully.

Roll-over the big red 'A' and you can 'remove your reaction' :-)

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4 hours ago, sclarke said:

Serious question: So this "AC50 world series" is going to go head to head with the Americas Cup world series in 2019?

This is where you are so blinkered. The AC50 series isn't going head to head with anything to do with the America's Cup. You seem to be the only person to think that. The America's Cup is a development competition. This is being sailed in boats that will have been "equalised". The America's cup is about match racing. This is about fleet racing. The America's Cup needs a huge team. The AC50 series will not need anything more than a few sailors and a few shore team, say a total of about 10 people.

You seem to be obsessed by the idea that they compete against each other. Does the GC32 series go head to head with the ACWS? Does any other series going head to head with the ACWS? It's just your perception, not a reality. 

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On 5/12/2018 at 11:58 PM, Potter said:

As someone who works in the industry, and is directly affected by the F50, a lot of that list is fact, it is just not announced. 

This is the first time I've seen these things be given a new name... F50... makes a bit of sense...

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2 hours ago, rh2600 said:

Roll-over the big red 'A' and you can 'remove your reaction' :-)

Thanks for that .. big fingers and tablets don't work to well with that system.

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I think that the AC 50 were supposed to have a long life, whatever the AC result. So one would have to be pretty naïve that it does not interact with the AC, which explains the AC exclusion of the teams involved elsewhere.

For me it's all good, I like the AC when allowing the fastest boats, the AC75 were designed extreme because of the AC50, they had no choice and it's perfect.

Now I would like to see a comparison (which will probably not happen) of both boats on the water.

 

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5 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

[snip]

This is being sailed in boats that will have been "equalised". The America's cup is about match racing. This is about fleet racing.

[snip]

Has anyone "in the know" mentioned how tight the class rule is on the newly coined "f50"?

just been skimming this and for sure am not going to re-read; but weren't the wings still open to the iges file? And wasn't there foil dev being done? Don't quite a few of these boats have well developed foil dev programs?  Are they gonna plug some generic foils and foil control systems and wing control systems?

if not, how is this equalised OD fleet racing?

 

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7 hours ago, agk470 said:

By my memory the teams were not allowed to use the 2 boats together? I’m actually quite sure I read that wrong as it’s the whole point of 2 boats to train in house. 

 

Your memory is more or less correct. Challengers who build 2 AC75s are not allowed to sail both at the same time. Protocol 11.1.f.

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12 minutes ago, barfy said:

Has anyone "in the know" mentioned how tight the class rule is on the newly coined "f50"?

just been skimming this and for sure am not going to re-read; but weren't the wings still open to the iges file? And wasn't there foil dev being done? Don't quite a few of these boats have well developed foil dev programs?  Are they gonna plug some generic foils and foil control systems and wing control systems?

if not, how is this equalised OD fleet racing?

 

All the sources say new boards and rudders have been developed and are being built at core. I think to call them "generic" is wrong, because because they are a development moving on from what teams had done for AC35. The comment I believe is that they will be faster than at AC35. As for the wing, the iges files were a 3d design that all the wings had to build to. That means the shape of each part is the same on all boats. What was not specified was the construction method or the control systems.Most knowledgeable observers suggest that nobody gained any noticeable advantage in construction but that ETNZ was way ahead of the others in control systems and Artemis was a little ahead of the others with the rest being pretty even in that department.

I am not sure how they intend to equalise the wings, but with the shapes all being the same, I suspect people smarter than me will come up with a way.

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interesting. not to be argumentative about it, but do the sources seem to imply that teams have pooled their IP and dev for the F50's?

That would be pretty cool, co-operative dev for a OD class.

And i know what an IGES file is, in this case it imposes a 3d point/edge defined box rule rather than a crude box. This does not imply exact duplicates as the slots, flaps, and control arms just need to fit in the box.

And control systems? Any rumours on that? Any previous dev done by any team in area to be class rule nullified?

edit: or a pooling of control system knowledge?

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1 hour ago, barfy said:

And i know what an IGES file is, in this case it imposes a 3d point/edge defined box rule rather than a crude box. This does not imply exact duplicates as the slots, flaps, and control arms just need to fit in the box.

IGES implies nothing because it is a file format that is neutral and can be read by a wide range of cad systems. I am not sure where you get the idea that the files simply defined a box rule. Each component of the wing was exactly defined and those components were a strict one design shape. To quote Seahorse 

Quote

the AC50 wing is effectively one-design in terms of its shape, layout and geometry.

https://www.seahorsemagazine.com/106-content/march-2017/460-unclipping-the-wings

The shape of the components might have been fixed, by the construction and control systems weren't.

 

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i worked in 3d for 15 years.

my understanding was the iges file laid out a volume that the wing had to fit into. i believe there were interpretations raised about control arms breaching the volume.

Just saying that you could build whatever you wanted inside of the described volume which is a box rule rather than a one design.

My other question to the folk who have all the inside scoop on this was:

1. will the control systems be prescribed or open to development?

2. And did all teams pool their foil and rudder knowledge to come up with the secret sauce for all to share? Because i think that is a great model for a new class.

edit: your link has this which seems to allude to not OD: (the ‘slot’) between the wing and flaps – which under the rules can be no more than 60mm, but is more typically 15mm upwind and perhaps 25mm 

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4 hours ago, barfy said:

Just saying that you could build whatever you wanted inside of the described volume which is a box rule rather than a one design.

You could not build whatever you wanted inside a described volume. I have the details at home in the UK, but it will be a while before I'm home, but I am 100% certain that there was not the flexibility you describe. I am a bit busy but the link I gave was one of many i could have provided. The shape of the wings were closely prescribed and were effectively a one design shape.  That was the whole point of the wing, to stop people spending a fortune on developing the shape. They provided that but left the flexibility to allow teams to decide on the structural strength of the components (which had the potential to allow components to twist) and the control systems.

4 hours ago, barfy said:

edit: your link has this which seems to allude to not OD: (the ‘slot’) between the wing and flaps – which under the rules can be no more than 60mm, but is more typically 15mm upwind and perhaps 25mm 

The slot is the gap between the 2 elements. It is set by a control system and has nothing to do with the shape of the elements. The slot is continually adjusted for the conditions, point of sailing and the amount of camber that has been induced into the wing. The rule simply set a limit to how big you could allow the slot to become, which is a control system issue, and the control systems were not one design. I hope that's making sense.

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4 hours ago, barfy said:

My other question to the folk who have all the inside scoop on this was:

1. will the control systems be prescribed or open to development?

2. And did all teams pool their foil and rudder knowledge to come up with the secret sauce for all to share? Because i think that is a great model for a new class.

There will be no development other than what has been done by a design team who have designed new foils, foil control systems and energy systems (battery powered). Teams will not be allowed to make any changes to the boats, the systems and the foils.

While I am sure there was some sharing of information, it really wasn't needed if you use the right design team. All the design secrets are out. All the foils have been photographed and analysed in great depth. It's the reason why ETNZ were so late with their race foils, they didn't want anybody to copy them. We also know the secret of ETNZ's steady flight, the system that Blair Tuke operated. That in itself might not be that important because I suspect that they will be using more computer control for flight control than requiring somebody in the crew to keep altering it, my belief although i have not been told that. Most of the teams had pretty good automated systems that they used to learn how to sail the boats (obviously they couldn't use them in the racing) so it seems like the most logical way of evening things out.

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The 'surface' of both hulls and wings of the AC Class was exactly specified. No wiggle room or 'box' as far as wing shape went - except for the extensions down to the deck IIRC

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17 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

This is where you are so blinkered. The AC50 series isn't going head to head with anything to do with the America's Cup. You seem to be the only person to think that. The America's Cup is a development competition. This is being sailed in boats that will have been "equalised". The America's cup is about match racing. This is about fleet racing. The America's Cup needs a huge team. The AC50 series will not need anything more than a few sailors and a few shore team, say a total of about 10 people.

You seem to be obsessed by the idea that they compete against each other. Does the GC32 series go head to head with the ACWS? Does any other series going head to head with the ACWS? It's just your perception, not a reality. 

That's not what the Mayors considering hosting are being sold apparently, but carry on

To think that those involved haven't and wont continue to milk the AC pedigree for everything they can get out of it short of reaching the limits of RNZYS's patience over IP rights is naive and totally ignores the past and their 'sport is business' and 'business success via scorched earth' attitudes.

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The AC75 will have T foils, the smaller Vampire is winning with T foils, the D35 will be flying with T foils, I think the AC50 should be considering it to be competitive.

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6 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

You could not build whatever you wanted inside a described volume. I have the details at home in the UK, but it will be a while before I'm home, but I am 100% certain that there was not the flexibility you describe. I am a bit busy but the link I gave was one of many i could have provided. The shape of the wings were closely prescribed and were effectively a one design shape.  That was the whole point of the wing, to stop people spending a fortune on developing the shape. They provided that but left the flexibility to allow teams to decide on the structural strength of the components (which had the potential to allow components to twist) and the control systems.

The slot is the gap between the 2 elements. It is set by a control system and has nothing to do with the shape of the elements. The slot is continually adjusted for the conditions, point of sailing and the amount of camber that has been induced into the wing. The rule simply set a limit to how big you could allow the slot to become, which is a control system issue, and the control systems were not one design. I hope that's making sense.

The shape in all dimensions was described yes - it was a very tight 'box' rule as Nav stated, but what structures you had inside those wings was entirely up the team. I remember it being talked about in an ETNZ clip during Bermuda, and looking closely at the wings during racing seeing even the number of elements and/or their position in the wing were different between teams. Most importantly, this defined shape was static - things changed dramatically once the wings deformed under control by the trimmer - it was then that the stark variations in wing design became most obvious and most important.

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  1. Except for the wing spar “D” shaped section, the wing outer surface shall be designed as represented by the IGES file and built within the tolerance of 0.006 m over internal structure, and 0.006 m external and 0.045 m internal to the IGES file surface over unsupported film areas, or as set out in Appendix E except:

Yes, upon re-reading the rules the tolerances were much tighter than I remembered.

Also, as rh2600 has noted, this is in measurement condition which resulted in significant differences in trimmed shapes.

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12 hours ago, sclarke said:

I received an Email from a member of the communications team (won't say his name, although Im sure we all know who he is) at ETNZ yesterday.

"Thanks for your Email. Yes We hear rumours also. At this stage, our information shows this is just rumour, however true or not we wouldn't be contesting as our complete focus is obviously on defending the Americas Cup here in New Zealand! All of our time, resource and focus is on that one objective.

Thanks again for your support"

Doesn't sound like much is happening in New Zealand, or ETNZ would surely have an inside scoop, unless ETNZ are also sworn to secrecy, but can you really imagine ETNZ agreeing to a NDA? 

Why exactly would you think ETNZ would have an inside scoop? Boats being built for a circuit funded by LE in a facility set up by him? What could it possibly have to do with ETNZ that as you said have written up a protocol with LR that forbids teams sailing on that type of boat? Little confused on your thinking there. 

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^ That + Even if ETNZ knows anything, why would they be confirming that the event will take place and take focus and exposure away from America Cup anyway? What would be their interest to give any comment on that at this stage? And I am pretty sure ETNZ is well aware of things going around them and are probably more informed than most (if not all) of us here whatever the status of the 'AC50 thing'. 

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18 hours ago, sclarke said:

I received an Email from a member of the communications team (won't say his name, although Im sure we all know who he is) at ETNZ yesterday.

"Thanks for your Email. Yes We hear rumours also. At this stage, our information shows this is just rumour, however true or not we wouldn't be contesting as our complete focus is obviously on defending the Americas Cup here in New Zealand! All of our time, resource and focus is on that one objective.

Thanks again for your support"

Doesn't sound like much is happening in New Zealand, or ETNZ would surely have an inside scoop, unless ETNZ are also sworn to secrecy, but can you really imagine ETNZ agreeing to a NDA? 

Why would they tell sclarke that they know what they should not know ?

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19 hours ago, sclarke said:

"Thanks for your Email. Yes We hear rumours also. At this stage, our information shows this is just rumour, however true or not we wouldn't be contesting as our complete focus is obviously on defending the Americas Cup here in New Zealand! All of our time, resource and focus is on that one objective. 

A perfectly straightforward reply to a polite inquiry

But it seems many ^ are so cowed by sports-persons in their societies that they find such an exchange simply unbelievable - so it's tinfoil hat time :lol:

 

 

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3 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Why would they tell sclarke that they know what they should not know ?

Because when you email someone, you don't email as a SA poster using an anonymous screen name. You email personally. Given it was a private Email between 2 people, why would he not say anything? There is no harm in admitting privately that it may/ may not be happening as they are not running it. There has since been a couple of emails since then, and again, it seems if there is anything happening in NZ, they don't seem to know much about it at all which I find hard to believe given the influence they have in the industry. I also dont believe they are "not saying anything" because as you know Dalton has been outspoken regarding being "screwed" in the past, and this would be huge, if a rival series to the AC, was building boats in NZ, the home of the defender. I would expect Dalton would be publicly denouncing it by now as it may have the potential to hurt their event.

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Nothing in the email response suggests they see the rumored series as any issue at all. In fact and to the contrary, it suggests that were they not focused on Defending then they might consider racing in it.

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12 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Nothing in the email response suggests they see the rumored series as any issue at all. In fact and to the contrary, it suggests that were they not focused on Defending then they might consider racing in it.

If they weren't defending, of course they would definitely be racing in it, as it would mean they would be still challenging for the Americas Cup. The ill fated Framework stated the AC50's would be used for the next AC.

If they did know anything at all, a simple "we are aware of boats, and/ or equipment being built here in Auckland/ Warkworth. But nothing, just "true or not" and "Rumours" is all they seem to know. You can guarantee Richard Gladwell would know about it by now, if in fact boats or equipment are being built in Auckland. He would be all over it.

 

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1 hour ago, sclarke said:

Because when you email someone, you don't email as a SA poster using an anonymous screen name. You email personally. Given it was a private Email between 2 people, why would he not say anything? There is no harm in admitting privately that it may/ may not be happening as they are not running it. There has since been a couple of emails since then, and again, it seems if there is anything happening in NZ, they don't seem to know much about it at all which I find hard to believe given the influence they have in the industry. I also dont believe they are "not saying anything" because as you know Dalton has been outspoken regarding being "screwed" in the past, and this would be huge, if a rival series to the AC, was building boats in NZ, the home of the defender. I would expect Dalton would be publicly denouncing it by now as it may have the potential to hurt their event.

Either you don't believe what they say, or if you do, as SR points out, the only reason they give not to participate is they are focussed on defending.

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6 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Either you don't believe what they say, or if you do, as SR points out, the only reason they give not to participate is they are focussed on defending.

Which is pretty easy to understand isn't it? If they weren't defending they would've been sailing the AC50's anyway as they were confirmed to be used for the next AC.

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6 pages of being trolled by Sclarke (who is probably a Random sock)? And now a ‘serious’ discussion about the implications of his made up ‘email from ETNZ’?! Here’s the sum total of his ‘argument’ - someone contributes something, and then he denies it with some convoluted, long winded drooling. 

Yikes!

PS - hey Sclarke - while you’re on the horn with ETNZ, see if you can get the skinny on the next generation of VOR boats as well! 

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12 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

6 pages of being trolled by Sclarke (who is probably a Random sock)? And now a ‘serious’ discussion about the implications of his made up ‘email from ETNZ’?! Here’s the sum total of his ‘argument’ - someone contributes something, and then he denies it with some convoluted, long winded drooling. 

Yikes!

PS - hey Sclarke - while you’re on the horn with ETNZ, see if you can get the skinny on the next generation of VOR boats as well! 

"Made up Email" I would post a screen shot of the Email, but firstly, it contains names and contacts from ETNZ which I'm assuming they may not want me to release ya know? While we're talking about it, if you're going to call me out for made up stuff mate, look in the mirror first! All of your shit is made up! In fact this whole thread is based on made up shit!

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^ Hahahaha. Ok, have fun trolling. Once the F50s are rolling, this will be a fun thread to revisit!

 

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56 minutes ago, sclarke said:

"Made up Email" I would post a screen shot of the Email,

Waiting for it, or a press release, or it did not happen. :)

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6 minutes ago, sclarke said:

This is the last of the exchange.

H***** H*****
5:33 PM (13 hours ago)
to me 
Thanks S****,
Appreciate your touching base!
Cheers
H*****  

Sent from my iPhone

No name, means nothing.

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5 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

No name, means nothing.

I'm not exactly going to go and ask consent to publish names and contacts on SA. Anyway, You hear that Surfsailor and Team_GBR "No name, means nothing" Guess we can end this thread now.

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5 minutes ago, sclarke said:

I'm not exactly going to go and ask consent to publish names and contacts on SA. Anyway, You hear that Surfsailor and Team_GBR "No name, means nothing" Guess we can end this thread now.

YOU are the one asking proof and press release, so practice you own medicine.

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8 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

YOU are the one asking proof and press release, so practice you own medicine.

I was asked to prove the "Made up email" wasn't made up, which I just did.

I've asked you and your friends time and time again to prove anything they've claimed, and to date...nothing. Now you want names which I clearly can't publish without consent, not that they need to be published 

 

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1 hour ago, sclarke said:

I was asked to prove the "Made up email" wasn't made up, which I just did.

I've asked you and your friends time and time again to prove anything they've claimed, and to date...nothing. Now you want names which I clearly can't publish without consent, not that they need to be published 

 

How did a redacted cut and paste prove anything?  

Exhibit A:

H***** H*****
5:33 PM (13 hours ago)
to me 
Thanks S****,
Appreciate your touching base!  We’re really excited about what Larry has planned!  Those boats were so much more fun than the new shit boxes we got forced into. Oh well. Hope you’re feeling better by the way, I’ve heard syphillis can be rough. 
Cheers
H*****  

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How does it not? Redacted or not, it proves it actually exists which is more than what can be said for anything that you've brought to the table.

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2 minutes ago, sclarke said:

How does it not?

It doesn’t because my obviously edited version is just as credible as your edited version. There is currently no proof as to which version is fake, other than the fact that I’m honest. 

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4 minutes ago, Monkey said:

It doesn’t because my obviously edited version is just as credible as your edited version. There is currently no proof as to which version is fake, other than the fact that I’m honest. 

Other than the fact you just said "my obviously edited version" which proves you just edited it, so yours is the fake one, not mine.

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43 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Those boats were so much more fun than the new shit boxes we got forced into

By the way, you just proved my point. You're just making shit up about some phantom series because your team lost and your boat is dead. Glad we got there in the end.

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