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Larry's AC50 Circus

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1 minute ago, sclarke said:

No AC sailors are able to compete, that means no big names.

 

Just nobodies like Cammas, Slingsby and Percy.

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1 minute ago, dogwatch said:

Just nobodies like Cammas, Slingsby and Percy.

Cammas has stated he is committed to a Cup campaign.

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3 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

:D

That the best you've got? Emoji's? What are you, 12? You read my reasoning and came back with an Emoji? Sheesh...smh

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I heard something like this (paraphrasing from memory):

 “Larry was told it would take three years to ramp up, and he shot back, “Do it in one.” So there might not be ten boats in the first year, but just wait and see. 

Bigger question is fleet racing or match racing. RG thinks it will be match a la the LV Pacific Series, with ten teams rotating through four boats and maybe that’s the case, at least early on. But I doubt it.”

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And that: LE owns all of the LiveLine tech. He wants to put that to use and keep improving it.

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Again have Blair and Pete signed for NZ? Outteridge, Slingsby, Ashby, cammas, CJ, Draper, lamb? Kirby?  

Just unsure on who has and hasn’t. 

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2 hours ago, agk470 said:

Again have Blair and Pete signed for NZ? Outteridge, Slingsby, Ashby, cammas, CJ, Draper, lamb? Kirby?  

Just unsure on who has and hasn’t. 

ETNZ-related people seem to think Blair and Pete are signed but neither of them has confirmed it so far that I know of, when asked the question. That was the situation during even the VOR stopover in Auckland, in radio and on TV interviews. They were both cagey, but my guess is that GD will have to cave and that he has a massive enough budget that he will. 

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Pete and Blair are signed.

 

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3 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

ETNZ-related people seem to think Blair and Pete are signed but neither of them has confirmed it so far that I know of, when asked the question. That was the situation during even the VOR stopover in Auckland, in radio and on TV interviews. They were both cagey, but my guess is that GD will have to cave and that he has a massive enough budget that he will. 

http://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-newspapers/central-north-island/sport/sport-region-6459/103255334/Team-New-Zealand-not-confirming-Peter-Burling-as-skipper-for-next-Americas-Cup

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I would imagine they would still be on retainer but there doesnt seem to be anything actually saying who is signed. No press release so I’d imagine they will start talks after Volvo. I have heard that burbling has been offered a team if he wants it. I wouldn’t expect he would take it but surely Russel would have hit him up. I’m sure a lot more will come out soon. I heard one team is out will be interesting to see what comes of that. 

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17 hours ago, sclarke said:

Cammas has stated he is committed to a Cup campaign.

Nope. He's said he is still trying to raise the €€€. Meanwhile, he is Ehman's list for the F50s at a tenth of the budget.

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8 hours ago, sclarke said:

Pete and Blair are signed.

 

No press release, so it hasn’t happened. 

Those are your rules. 

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9 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Nope. He's said he is still trying to raise the €€€. Meanwhile, he is Ehman's list for the F50s at a tenth of the budget.

You're right. But they are still committed to the Americas Cup. They're not entered yet, but they are committed to trying to get there.

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4 hours ago, sclarke said:

You're right. But they are still committed to the Americas Cup. They're not entered yet, but they are committed to trying to get there.

You are so delusional!

The recent AC wannabe-helms who look possible as show-ups in Auckland can be counted on only 4 fingers. 

If GD had brains instead of debts, he’d have signed the agreement to stay with an AC50 revolution. And he’d have signed with where the seriously heavy money is. Almost nobody is going to visit Auckland, it already looks like a number-of-challengers failure.

There’s a chance Burling, even Spithill, will end up Racing the F50 Series instead. LE’s boats, action and money will be a lot faster for all. As was originally and apparently still is  intended, by a guy with more money than God.

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3 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

You are so delusional!

The recent AC wannabe-helms who look possible as show-ups in Auckland can be counted on only 4 fingers. 

If GD had brains instead of debts, he’d have signed the agreement to stay with an AC50 revolution. And he’d have signed with where the seriously heavy money is. Almost nobody is going to visit Auckland, it already looks like a number-of-challengers failure.

There’s a chance Burling, even Spithill, will end up Racing the F50 Series instead. LE’s boats, action and money will be a lot faster for all. As was originally and apparently still is  intended, by a guy with more money than God.

You have no idea who is turning up in Auckland. You're just continuing to spout your sour grapes because your team lost.

The "Agreement" was a joke. It wasn't deed compliant, or consistent with the tradition and history of the AC. It was an attempt by Oracle to essentially continue their vision whether they won or lost. 

You're the delusional one if you think a winner like Burling will go and compete in a losers regatta with guys who, instead of competing to win the trophy back, threw in the towel and quit because they weren't good enough and bought themselves a trophy instead.

 

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5 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

There’s a chance Burling, even Spithill, will end up Racing the F50 Series instead. LE’s boats, action and money will be a lot faster for all. As was originally and apparently still is  intended, by a guy with more money than God.

 

As far as we know, the only team that has positively opted for the F50s rather than AC36 is Artemis. The rest are there because the budget is an order of magnitude less. I don't see the events as being in direct competition and I am looking forward to seeing both. How many will in fact see the F50s depends on whether LE sticks to the dated pay to view model.

We don't know exactly what contract Spithill has signed but I would be surprised if it allows him to decide to sail another circuit. As for Burling, it sounds like he doesn't plan to work for cheap in AC36 and is negotiating accordingly.  

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16 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

 

As far as we know, the only team that has positively opted for the F50s rather than AC36 is Artemis. The rest are there because the budget is an order of magnitude less. I don't see the events as being in direct competition and I am looking forward to seeing both. How many will in fact see the F50s depends on whether LE sticks to the dated pay to view model.

We don't know exactly what contract Spithill has signed but I would be surprised if it allows him to decide to sail another circuit. As for Burling, it sounds like he doesn't plan to work for cheap in AC36 and is negotiating accordingly.  

I think its more to do with the fact that Burling is currently under contract with Brunel Sailing team and is currently focused on winning that too. He is currently a close second for the leg, but tied for first overall, but looking like he will claim that prize as well as a triple crown. There's no way he's sitting out the AC. 

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3 minutes ago, Anon said:

Stolen? I found your Facebook page mate...

Fine. That does not give you the right to post my personal information on this forum or My Wifes. Naming my wife and sending stalker messages.

This is what this fucking Anon newbie stalker said to me through a message folks "*****(My Wifes name) is a nice rig. You're definitely punching above your weight" You better stay the fuck away from my wife cunt!

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4 hours ago, mfluder said:

You have no idea who is turning up in Auckland. You're just continuing to spout your sour grapes because your team lost.

The "Agreement" was a joke. It wasn't deed compliant, or consistent with the tradition and history of the AC. It was an attempt by Oracle to essentially continue their vision whether they won or lost. 

You're the delusional one if you think a winner like Burling will go and compete in a losers regatta with guys who, instead of competing to win the trophy back, threw in the towel and quit because they weren't good enough and bought themselves a trophy instead.

 

Mate your having a lend arnt you?

Whats say LE offers double what TNZ does, what does Pete do?  curious as to what your thoughts are here.

and who threw in the towel? sponsors or team owners appear to have left to me leaving athletes without teams to be able to compete, well estblished teams joined the cup cycle and there isn't room for all the guys from last cup. some guys were able to jump, some are still trying to get sponsors to do the cup, 

Frank as you said is trying to find funding for a French team 

Slingsby has been reported to be trying to find funding for an Australian team 

Outteridge and Percy seem to be trying to convince TT to go again. 

If these guys cannot find the funding to join the cup why wouldn't they join an awesome world circuit in boats that they all loved?

what Trophy have they bought? LE appears to have a trophy and these bloody good sailors will compete for it on a world circuit. 

 

this is happening mate like it or not and i wouldn't be so sure that Pete and Blair wouldn't look seriously at it. the cup isnt the be all end all for everyone champ.

 

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On 6/22/2018 at 1:36 PM, Stingray~ said:

I heard something like this (paraphrasing from memory):

 “Larry was told it would take three years to ramp up, and he shot back, “Do it in one.”

That was 15 months ago

 

 

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2 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

That was 15 months ago

? Could be, but AC 35 was only 12 months ago. Hard to understand 15.

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5 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

? Could be, but AC 35 was only 12 months ago. Hard to understand 15.

Math isn’t Clean’s strong point. 

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47 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Math isn’t Clean’s strong point. 

Why wouldn't LE be interested in building an upgrading the AC50s as part of his master plan for the AC's future? He would have only had a small window of time to sort the boats out before whatever ACWS would be kicking off, and he may have also wanted more boats available for new teams to join, and want them quickly. He was told it would take 3 years for more boats with a new config and he said, you've got a year. There's nothing about his statement that wouldn't apply to a situation 15 months ago...

Clean didn't say it was exclusively related to the Vanity Regatta, simply to more boats with a new config - in fact it's further evidence as to why this thing is still trying to happen - the "more boats, new/better config" scheme was already planned during the last AC, and at least emotionally committed too - and so it's no wonder why these dead horses are still being flogged even after the loss.

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On 6/22/2018 at 11:55 AM, mfluder said:

Cammas has stated he is committed to a Cup campaign.

Cammas is not committed, he has no budget yet.

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What "demand" is not being met by the ESS? Looks like the Losers F50 proposal is aimed at ESS - good luck with that!!

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There is also a question on the Ineos Team UK FB page from someone who asks: "I wonder who is going to join INEOS Team UK next after Joey Newton & Iain Jensen. Hey Ben, if you could coax Tom Slingsby into your Team as Strategist/Back-up Tactician that would be nice. You did darn well with Tommy back in 2013. I wonder what Iain Percy & Nathan Outteridge are going to do next"

To which the Team replied: "More signings to come. Thanks for the support" Maybe Tommy Slingsby and possibly even Iain Percy might end up at Team UK?

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12 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Cammas is not committed, he has no budget yet.

I suspect with the latest VOR win from Charles Caudrelier, Cammas and now Caudrelier will both be known as sailing heroes in France. This may go a long way to cementing some kind of a budget for the AC.  

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33 minutes ago, mfluder said:

I suspect with the latest VOR win from Charles Caudrelier, Cammas and now Caudrelier will both be known as sailing heroes in France. This may go a long way to cementing some kind of a budget for the AC.  

Cammas and Caudrelier won the VOR in front of Peter Burling and Co, I doubt they get any more budget from France, the miracle could come from China. 

Dongfeng may do a lot to open China to sailing.

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15 hours ago, agk470 said:

Mate your having a lend arnt you?

Whats say LE offers double what TNZ does, what does Pete do?  curious as to what your thoughts are here.

and who threw in the towel? sponsors or team owners appear to have left to me leaving athletes without teams to be able to compete, well estblished teams joined the cup cycle and there isn't room for all the guys from last cup. some guys were able to jump, some are still trying to get sponsors to do the cup, 

Frank as you said is trying to find funding for a French team 

Slingsby has been reported to be trying to find funding for an Australian team 

Outteridge and Percy seem to be trying to convince TT to go again. 

If these guys cannot find the funding to join the cup why wouldn't they join an awesome world circuit in boats that they all loved?

what Trophy have they bought? LE appears to have a trophy and these bloody good sailors will compete for it on a world circuit. 

 

this is happening mate like it or not and i wouldn't be so sure that Pete and Blair wouldn't look seriously at it. the cup isnt the be all end all for everyone champ.

 

It was widely known, even in Bermuda, that ETNZ team members took hefty pay cuts to continue being employed at ETNZ. It was also stated that immediately after the AC, Dalton could not pay salaries, and had to sell some of the team assets to be able to pay salaries.

Pete will stay at Team NZ whether Ellison offers him double or not. If for no other reason that he is still a member of the NZ Sailing team for the Tokyo Olympics. No doubt Dalton will offer him the skipper role, which by all accounts Glenn Ashby is fine with. 

They already can join an awesome world circuit. Its called the GC32 Class.

When it comes to guys like Pete and Blair, competing against the best in the world, to be the best in the world is what is appealing. And the top of the world for those guys is the Olympics, and the Americas Cup. They aren't going anywhere. You have to be joking if you think those guys are going to give up sailing for New Zealand at the highest level of their sport for some second rate B-grade pretend Americas Cup regatta. 

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9 hours ago, mfluder said:

It was widely known, even in Bermuda, that ETNZ team members took hefty pay cuts to continue being employed at ETNZ. It was also stated that immediately after the AC, Dalton could not pay salaries, and had to sell some of the team assets to be able to pay salaries. Not sure what relevance this has moving forward apart from the fact it might work against TNZ as they are an employer that seems to change their contracts to suit their own business model and everyone else must fall into line, dictatorship much?(easy its a bit of a joke champ)  maybe Pete and Blair, or anyone within the team, theres a point where doing it for country doesnt pay the mortgage, will want to have their contracts honoured like any normal bloke or woman would?

Pete will stay at Team NZ whether Ellison offers him double or not. If for no other reason that he is still a member of the NZ Sailing team for the Tokyo Olympics. No doubt Dalton will offer him the skipper role, which by all accounts Glenn Ashby is fine with.  Not sure why you think unless i dont know of a rule why they couldnt be olympic team members and sail for another team other than team NZ.  

They already can join an awesome world circuit. Its called the GC32 Class. agreed its a bloody great class and going well but not in the same league as the 50's, i can sail a GC around but could barely keep the 45T on the foils

When it comes to guys like Pete and Blair, competing against the best in the world, to be the best in the world is what is appealing. And the top of the world for those guys is the Olympics, and the Americas Cup. They aren't going anywhere. You have to be joking if you think those guys are going to give up sailing for New Zealand at the highest level of their sport for some second rate B-grade pretend Americas Cup regatta. OK so this is stretching it even for a die hard fanboy. Who do you rate as best in the world, what athletes? im genuinely interested to know,  and why would they be giving up sailing for NZ at the highest level? they still are NZ citizens so are eligible for games, they raced for Holland and Spain in the VOR right?  Is the volvo not the highest level in that part of the sport?  

Didnt a very good famous kiwi leave TNZ and is now arguably the most successful Americas cup sailor of our era? he won all the type of things Pete and Blair have and left to continue to be a great sailor, these guys dont have to stay in NZ to be great sailors, they have proved this over and over maybe now they will want to cash in on it.

Maybe they will do the cup,  but maybe they will do the 50's sailing amongst a young talented group and have fun racing one design bloody fast boats that they were very happy sailing in bermuda. and earn good freight whilst doing it. 

Im totally over you thinking that guys who lost the cup are walking away, a huge amount of time has been spent by those guys trying to get cash to enter and win the cup, they all love it, If they cannot get the funding then what are they supposed to not sail boats they like. If LE called you and said ,hey chump heres X amount come sail the boats on me,we'll look after everything you find your own title sponsor and come sail 40+ knots for shit and giggles,  you'd say no?  your bloody dreaming son. 

I know you pick one or 2 points and dribble on about that and leave all the other point that you cant dispute out so im sure that will keep happening, I just would love for you to step away a little from the line you will not cross and see that its not all doom and gloom over here, actually its pretty bloody good to embrace all aspects of sailing. you should try it, who knows you may even like it. 

 

9 hours ago, mfluder said:

 

 

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9 hours ago, agk470 said:

 

 

^^ This is what I say to that... You guys have no understanding of how NZ Sport works. Its like playing for the All Blacks. The vast majority of guys who play rugby can earn twice, sometimes 3 times or more the amount they earn playing for the All Blacks by playing overseas, France for example, but playing for NZ, representing the All Blacks and wearing the fern on your chest is what is appealing to these guys. They could go overseas and earn million dollar paychecks, but they don't, they stay here and play for the All Blacks. Its not about money, its about wearing the fern and representing NZ. It may sound like a cliche, but its true. This is what a lot of people who don't live in NZ fail to understand. 

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1 hour ago, mfluder said:

^^ This is what I say to that... You guys have no understanding of how NZ Sport works. Its like playing for the All Blacks. The vast majority of guys who play rugby can earn twice, sometimes 3 times or more the amount they earn playing for the All Blacks by playing overseas, France for example, but playing for NZ, representing the All Blacks and wearing the fern on your chest is what is appealing to these guys. They could go overseas and earn million dollar paychecks, but they don't, they stay here and play for the All Blacks. Its not about money, its about wearing the fern and representing NZ. It may sound like a cliche, but its true. This is what a lot of people who don't live in NZ fail to understand. 

A lot of All Blacks play over seas mate

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1 hour ago, mfluder said:

^^ This is what I say to that... You guys have no understanding of how NZ Sport works. Its like playing for the All Blacks. The vast majority of guys who play rugby can earn twice, sometimes 3 times or more the amount they earn playing for the All Blacks by playing overseas, France for example, but playing for NZ, representing the All Blacks and wearing the fern on your chest is what is appealing to these guys. They could go overseas and earn million dollar paychecks, but they don't, they stay here and play for the All Blacks. Its not about money, its about wearing the fern and representing NZ. It may sound like a cliche, but its true. This is what a lot of people who don't live in NZ fail to understand. 

But the guys playing for the all blacks and super rugby teams are getting paid quite adequately. So your comparing apples to oranges. They can earn a great living playing super rugby then the bonus is the all blacks. No one plays only all blacks. Agreed national pride is very strong there as it should be. 

 

How many any of those rugby guys do you think would hang around if there only paycheck was the few tests a year and the World Cup year? And in that year the all blacks asked them to play for less? How many would be able to afford to live? To setup for a future? get a home loan?  Have enough job security  to start a family etc? 

Not a balanced argument really. 

The super rugby is one of the best comps to play in but a lot have to leave to set themselves up. 

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27 minutes ago, kawalski said:

A lot of All Blacks play over seas mate

Former All Blacks.

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3 minutes ago, agk470 said:

But the guys playing for the all blacks and super rugby teams are getting paid quite adequately. So your comparing apples to oranges. They can earn a great living playing super rugby then the bonus is the all blacks. No one plays only all blacks. Agreed national pride is very strong there as it should be. 

 

How many any of those rugby guys do you think would hang around if there only paycheck was the few tests a year and the World Cup year? And in that year the all blacks asked them to play for less? How many would be able to afford to live? To setup for a future? get a home loan?  Have enough job security  to start a family etc? 

Not a balanced argument really. 

The super rugby is one of the best comps to play in but a lot have to leave to set themselves up. 

Agreed. But even Super Rugby doesn't pay as handsomely as Toulon, Perpignan or Racing 92. The big money is overseas. They either choose the Black jersey or the money. Most choose the jersey, some choose the money.

The majority of Kiwi's who play overseas are either former All Blacks, or players who never got an All Black jersey but are still good enough to earn a decent pay check

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If Ellison is going to invest into this series roughly the size of his past AC campaigns or more, well then there’s a decent chance that with ‘Oracle’ for his team name he will have told RC to create a top-talent team. 

I think it was Burling himself who tweeted that photo, of himself having lunch with RC in New Zealand? Maybe guys can sail both series if they are under different team names?

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38 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

If Ellison is going to invest into this series roughly the size of his past AC campaigns or more, well then there’s a decent chance that with ‘Oracle’ for his team name he will have told RC to create a top-talent team. 

I think it was Burling himself who tweeted that photo, of himself having lunch with RC in New Zealand? Maybe guys can sail both series if they are under different team names?

two Kiwis have lunch together and all of a sudden its a conspiracy thanks to LE's $$$... in our neck of the woods mate it means nothing other than there was a good pie around the corner and a couple of guys were peckish...

The difference between our two nations continues to be in stark illumination in some of the comments on this board... for some the answers are found in egos, money, billionaires and for others its about simply having a good sail, getting a fair crack at the wicket, everyone's bank account being the list interesting thing to measure... worlds apart we are...worlds apart.

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3 hours ago, kawalski said:

A lot of All Blacks play over seas mate

After playing their best years for the All Blacks, mate! The ones who take the money in the NH are either at the end of their careers, or have been informed that they will not make it. Piutau took the money, but even if he was eligible for selection, he would struggle to get on the bench. Brad Shields would have been selected for the All Blacks 4-5 years ago, but his skill set and game are just not dynamic enough for the All Blacks, so he's off to Wasps and England. He would never have made the All Blacks.

Julian Savea has signed for Toulon at age 28 - there is no way he would get into the All Blacks ahead of Rieko Ioane. The Hurricanes even tried to help him by playing him on the right wing to give him an opyion, but we have big fast young wingers queuing up!

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Just now, Indio said:

After playing their best years for the All Blacks, mate! The ones who take the money in the NH are either at the end of their careers, or have been informed that they will not make it. Piutau took the money, but even if he was eligible for selection, he would struggle to get on the bench. Brad Shields would have been selected for the All Blacks 4-5 years ago, but his skill set and game are just not dynamic enough for the All Blacks, so he's off to Wasps and England. He would never have made the All Blacks.

Julian Savea has signed for Toulon at age 28 - there is no way he would get into the All Blacks ahead of Rieko Ioane. The Hurricanes even tried to help him by playing him on the right wing to give him an opyion, but we have big fast young wingers queuing up!

Some just don't get it mate... they can barely understand why someone would want to play for love of victory over and above the love of money - let alone consider that the lack of focus on money, and instead the love of the contest and sport is what makes the ABs (and to a similar extent ETNZ) get the results they do...

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6 hours ago, mfluder said:

^^ This is what I say to that... You guys have no understanding of how NZ Sport works. Its like playing for the All Blacks. The vast majority of guys who play rugby can earn twice, sometimes 3 times or more the amount they earn playing for the All Blacks by playing overseas, France for example, but playing for NZ, representing the All Blacks and wearing the fern on your chest is what is appealing to these guys. They could go overseas and earn million dollar paychecks, but they don't, they stay here and play for the All Blacks. Its not about money, its about wearing the fern and representing NZ. It may sound like a cliche, but its true. This is what a lot of people who don't live in NZ fail to understand. 

Ok so back to this. Let’s put $$$ aside it’s obvious I won’t get you guys to see the other side here. And I 100% see your point. NZ isn’t the only place where this happens by the way. Over here in Aussie land isn’t that dissimilar  

Answers to the other parts of my reply? Again you honed In on one part then have gone off on a tangent. 

Care to comment on the other points? 

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3 hours ago, agk470 said:

Ok so back to this. Let’s put $$$ aside it’s obvious I won’t get you guys to see the other side here. And I 100% see your point. NZ isn’t the only place where this happens by the way. Over here in Aussie land isn’t that dissimilar  

Answers to the other parts of my reply? Again you honed In on one part then have gone off on a tangent. 

Care to comment on the other points? 

It was widely known, even in Bermuda, that ETNZ team members took hefty pay cuts to continue being employed at ETNZ. It was also stated that immediately after the AC, Dalton could not pay salaries, and had to sell some of the team assets to be able to pay salaries.

Not sure what relevance this has moving forward apart from the fact it might work against TNZ as they are an employer that seems to change their contracts to suit their own business model and everyone else must fall into line, dictatorship much?(easy its a bit of a joke champ)  maybe Pete and Blair, or anyone within the team, theres a point where doing it for country doesnt pay the mortgage, will want to have their contracts honoured like any normal bloke or woman would?

The relevance is, for a lot of Kiwi sportsmen, its not about the money. Its about wearing the fern, and representing your country

Pete will stay at Team NZ whether Ellison offers him double or not. If for no other reason that he is still a member of the NZ Sailing team for the Tokyo Olympics. No doubt Dalton will offer him the skipper role, which by all accounts Glenn Ashby is fine with.  Not sure why you think unless i dont know of a rule why they couldnt be olympic team members and sail for another team other than team NZ.  

They already can join an awesome world circuit. Its called the GC32 Class.

agreed its a bloody great class and going well but not in the same league as the 50's, i can sail a GC around but could barely keep the 45T on the foils.

There are a lot of professional sailors that compete on the GC32 circuit. And they all struggle to keep the boat on its foils with any stability. In the AC we saw the better teams being able to keep their boats on the foils close to 100% of the time. I'm not sure if any of the teams have completed a dry lap on the GC32's yet, and this class has been around since 2012.

I SERIOUSLY DOUBT that you could sail a GC32 around.

When it comes to guys like Pete and Blair, competing against the best in the world, to be the best in the world is what is appealing. And the top of the world for those guys is the Olympics, and the Americas Cup. They aren't going anywhere. You have to be joking if you think those guys are going to give up sailing for New Zealand at the highest level of their sport for some second rate B-grade pretend Americas Cup regatta.

OK so this is stretching it even for a die hard fanboy. Who do you rate as best in the world, what athletes? im genuinely interested to know,  and why would they be giving up sailing for NZ at the highest level? they still are NZ citizens so are eligible for games, they raced for Holland and Spain in the VOR right?  Is the volvo not the highest level in that part of the sport? 

Who do I rate as the best in the world? The guy who has an Olympic Gold medal, an Americas Cup win, a consistent winning record, or an ability to stay in the top 10 of every class he's ever competed in. The protocol prohibits "Competitors" - a key word - from acquiring, sailing or testing any yacht exceeding 15 meters except for the TP52. This would prohibit any AC sailors from competing IMO. If they choose the F50 series, they would be giving up the AC, which is HIGHLY unlikely.

Didnt a very good famous kiwi leave TNZ and is now arguably the most successful Americas cup sailor of our era? he won all the type of things Pete and Blair have and left to continue to be a great sailor, these guys dont have to stay in NZ to be great sailors, they have proved this over and over maybe now they will want to cash in on it.

Yes, Coutts left NZ because he didn't get his way, and yes, he is one of the greatest Americas Cup sailors of all time, no one denies that. But Burling would surely be up there with him.

Maybe they will do the cup,  but maybe they will do the 50's sailing amongst a young talented group and have fun racing one design bloody fast boats that they were very happy sailing in bermuda. and earn good freight whilst doing it. 

Like I said, the wording of the protocol seems to prevent competitors from doing both. If they choose the new 50 series, they give up the AC. Barker, Spithill, Ainslie, Jensen, Burling and Tuke have committed to the AC, as Dalton stated, all sailing tem members from Bermuda have committed, its just the roles that are yet to be determined. Whether a series can be successful without the worlds best sailors or the worlds fastest boats remains to be seen.

Im totally over you thinking that guys who lost the cup are walking away, a huge amount of time has been spent by those guys trying to get cash to enter and win the cup, they all love it, If they cannot get the funding then what are they supposed to not sail boats they like. If LE called you and said ,hey chump heres X amount come sail the boats on me,we'll look after everything you find your own title sponsor and come sail 40+ knots for shit and giggles,  you'd say no?  your bloody dreaming son. 

I used to play Rugby. My goal as a kid was to be an All Black. If I was a current All Black in my prime, or even looking at being selected for the AB's, and Toulon offered me a contract for millions, Hell no. Being an All Black means more than anything else, as does representing your country when you're a high profile NZ sportsman. If ETNZ had entered the VOR I'm sure we would have seen Burling and Tuke sailing for New Zealand. 

I know you pick one or 2 points and dribble on about that and leave all the other point that you cant dispute out so im sure that will keep happening, I just would love for you to step away a little from the line you will not cross and see that its not all doom and gloom over here, actually its pretty bloody good to embrace all aspects of sailing. you should try it, who knows you may even like it. 

If You truly embrace "All aspects of sailing" you would surely "embrace" the direction of the AC that Dalton and Bertelli have taken 

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51 minutes ago, mfluder said:

 

Like I said, the wording of the protocol seems to prevent competitors from doing both. If they choose the new 50 series, they give up the AC. Barker, Spithill, Ainslie, Jensen, Burling and Tuke have committed to the AC, as Dalton stated, all sailing tem members from Bermuda have committed, its just the roles that are yet to be determined. Whether a series can be successful without the worlds best sailors or the worlds fastest boats remains to be seen.

 

 

That is plain wrong. "Competitor" is a defined term in Protocol 1.4 and means "team". It does not mean "sailor". Nothing in the protocol prevents a sailor from competing in another series.

As far as teams go, 34.3 prevents or may prevent competing in an "ambush regatta". It is hard to see how an event that doesn't use AC boats, AC images or AC terminology and where most of the teams are not involved in the AC could be argued to be an "ambush". I am not expecting AC teams to join Larry's circus but that's not because they cannot, it is because it would form a significant diversion of treasure and effort.

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1 hour ago, mfluder said:

It was widely known, even in Bermuda, that ETNZ team members took hefty pay cuts to continue being employed at ETNZ. It was also stated that immediately after the AC, Dalton could not pay salaries, and had to sell some of the team assets to be able to pay salaries.

Not sure what relevance this has moving forward apart from the fact it might work against TNZ as they are an employer that seems to change their contracts to suit their own business model and everyone else must fall into line, dictatorship much?(easy its a bit of a joke champ)  maybe Pete and Blair, or anyone within the team, theres a point where doing it for country doesnt pay the mortgage, will want to have their contracts honoured like any normal bloke or woman would?

The relevance is, for a lot of Kiwi sportsmen, its not about the money. Its about wearing the fern, and representing your country

do they not wear the fern at the olympics?

Pete will stay at Team NZ whether Ellison offers him double or not. If for no other reason that he is still a member of the NZ Sailing team for the Tokyo Olympics. No doubt Dalton will offer him the skipper role, which by all accounts Glenn Ashby is fine with.  Not sure why you think unless i dont know of a rule why they couldnt be olympic team members and sail for another team other than team NZ.  

??

They already can join an awesome world circuit. Its called the GC32 Class.

agreed its a bloody great class and going well but not in the same league as the 50's, i can sail a GC around but could barely keep the 45T on the foils.

There are a lot of professional sailors that compete on the GC32 circuit. And they all struggle to keep the boat on its foils with any stability. In the AC we saw the better teams being able to keep their boats on the foils close to 100% of the time. I'm not sure if any of the teams have completed a dry lap on the GC32's yet, and this class has been around since 2012.

Is this really your argument? a boat that uses a mechanically driven foil(ropes on a drum)  as opposed to a boat that uses hydraulic rams to control rake, a boat that uses top handles on a main sheet winch as opposed to one that links 4 grinders or cyclors, a boat that has hydraulic rudder rake control on the steering wheel as opposed to one that uses a belt driven drum system, one boat that has hydraulic DB up/down as opposed to one that takes 2 men a lifetime to raise and lower. one boat that has a wing that can be manipulated at real time to reduce power or create power, one uses a soft sail that has minimal and slow control. do i need to go on? really not a great argument there.  

I SERIOUSLY DOUBT that you could sail a GC32 around.

You can doubt all you want Ive done quite alot of 32 stuff and yes can get them up and going plenty fine. absolutely cannot foil them 100% as you said thats near on impossible

When it comes to guys like Pete and Blair, competing against the best in the world, to be the best in the world is what is appealing. And the top of the world for those guys is the Olympics, and the Americas Cup. They aren't going anywhere. You have to be joking if you think those guys are going to give up sailing for New Zealand at the highest level of their sport for some second rate B-grade pretend Americas Cup regatta.

OK so this is stretching it even for a die hard fanboy. Who do you rate as best in the world, what athletes? im genuinely interested to know,  and why would they be giving up sailing for NZ at the highest level? they still are NZ citizens so are eligible for games, they raced for Holland and Spain in the VOR right?  Is the volvo not the highest level in that part of the sport? 

Who do I rate as the best in the world? The guy who has an Olympic Gold medal, an Americas Cup win, a consistent winning record, or an ability to stay in the top 10 of every class he's ever competed in. The protocol prohibits "Competitors" - a key word - from acquiring, sailing or testing any yacht exceeding 15 meters except for the TP52. This would prohibit any AC sailors from competing IMO. If they choose the F50 series, they would be giving up the AC, which is HIGHLY unlikely.

firstly GUYS, theres 2 of them dont forget the other genious on all those boats. he beat Pete in the 2014 A-Cat worlds in NZ. Sorry I meant Sailors, who are the best sailors in the world in your opinion. I tend to agree that if they choose the F50 they will be leaving their chance at the AC but maybe thats the challenge they want? Whats say they have a NZ team in the 50? would the lads not have the fern on their chest then?

Didnt a very good famous kiwi leave TNZ and is now arguably the most successful Americas cup sailor of our era? he won all the type of things Pete and Blair have and left to continue to be a great sailor, these guys dont have to stay in NZ to be great sailors, they have proved this over and over maybe now they will want to cash in on it.

Yes, Coutts left NZ because he didn't get his way, and yes, he is one of the greatest Americas Cup sailors of all time, no one denies that. But Burling would surely be up there with him. 

I dont doubt pete would be able to Race with him and possibly/probably beat him its not about that, And if you actually are in any position to have a chat with russell its a fair different story to the one the media has, but thats always the way.   

Maybe they will do the cup,  but maybe they will do the 50's sailing amongst a young talented group and have fun racing one design bloody fast boats that they were very happy sailing in bermuda. and earn good freight whilst doing it. 

Like I said, the wording of the protocol seems to prevent competitors from doing both. If they choose the new 50 series, they give up the AC. Barker, Spithill, Ainslie, Jensen, Burling and Tuke have committed to the AC, as Dalton stated, all sailing tem members from Bermuda have committed, its just the roles that are yet to be determined.Again have Pete and Blair signed? all the others there have been press releases of signings but not for the kiwi duo? Whether a series can be successful without the worlds best sailors or the worlds fastest boats remains to be seen. depending what you think are the best sailors in the world? you say a "Who do I rate as the best in the world? The guy who has an Olympic Gold medal, an Americas Cup win, a consistent winning record, or an ability to stay in the top 10 of every class he's ever competed in." sounds like slingsby and ben, and i'll wait to see who else you think are the best sailors in the world. worlds fastest boats? time will tell what boats they are. 

Im totally over you thinking that guys who lost the cup are walking away, a huge amount of time has been spent by those guys trying to get cash to enter and win the cup, they all love it, If they cannot get the funding then what are they supposed to not sail boats they like. If LE called you and said ,hey chump heres X amount come sail the boats on me,we'll look after everything you find your own title sponsor and come sail 40+ knots for shit and giggles,  you'd say no?  your bloody dreaming son. 

I used to play Rugby. My goal as a kid was to be an All Black. If I was a current All Black in my prime, or even looking at being selected for the AB's, and Toulon offered me a contract for millions, Hell no. Being an All Black means more than anything else, as does representing your country when you're a high profile NZ sportsman. If ETNZ had entered the VOR I'm sure we would have seen Burling and Tuke sailing for New Zealand.  Pete and Blair do represent their country at an olympics level, and have with ETNZ, they might again.  

I know you pick one or 2 points and dribble on about that and leave all the other point that you cant dispute out so im sure that will keep happening, I just would love for you to step away a little from the line you will not cross and see that its not all doom and gloom over here, actually its pretty bloody good to embrace all aspects of sailing. you should try it, who knows you may even like it. 

If You truly embrace "All aspects of sailing" you would surely "embrace" the direction of the AC that Dalton and Bertelli have taken 

Mate i'm pumped for the AC, I got half a mongrel when i saw the boat Ineos have just pulled out of the shed. Bloody awesome. It is and will be such a great time for sailing and engineering within our sport. cannot wait to see one sailing. 

 

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5 hours ago, dogwatch said:

 

That is plain wrong. "Competitor" is a defined term in Protocol 1.4 and means "team". It does not mean "sailor". Nothing in the protocol prevents a sailor from competing in another series.

As far as teams go, 34.3 prevents or may prevent competing in an "ambush regatta". It is hard to see how an event that doesn't use AC boats, AC images or AC terminology and where most of the teams are not involved in the AC could be argued to be an "ambush". I am not expecting AC teams to join Larry's circus but that's not because they cannot, it is because it would form a significant diversion of treasure and effort.

Agree.

Someone here asked an ETNZ team person about the proposed circuit and they said the one reason they wouldn’t sign on was simply because it would be a diversion of effort.

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2 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Agree.

Someone here asked an ETNZ team person about the proposed circuit and they said the one reason they wouldn’t sign on was simply because it would be a diversion of effort.

I emailed the team and got a response from them saying No, they won't be involved.

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48 minutes ago, mfluder said:

I emailed the team and got a response from them saying No, they won't be involved.

Someone else did too and posted the response they received, which included the need to focus on the AC Defense and included nothing at all about teams or sailors being precluded from participating for any other reason.

I could see (as just one AC36 team-sailor example) Burling getting paid well to crew on some other team-entry, a few times a year, just like what Ashby did recently for a Swiss GC32 team. Hard to imagine ETNZ denying someone that opportunity unless the event was simultaneously during AC75 work-up or ACWS event days.

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15 hours ago, mfluder said:

 

The protocol prohibits "Competitors" - a key word - from acquiring, sailing or testing any yacht exceeding 15 meters except for the TP52. This would prohibit any AC sailors from competing IMO. If they choose the F50 series, they would be giving up the AC, which is HIGHLY unlikely. 

VOR65 is not TP52 and it is longer than 15 meters. Therefore according to your claim above, Blair and Tuke are not allowed to sail in next AC, as they both have been sailing in a boat exceeding 15 meters which was not a TP52. That would mean they can just as well sail F50 series rather than not sail at all.

 

In reality it means you claim is wrong.

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12 minutes ago, NotSoFast said:

VOR65 is not TP52 and it is longer than 15 meters. Therefore according to your claim above, Blair and Tuke are not allowed to sail in next AC, as they both have been sailing in a boat exceeding 15 meters which was not a TP52. That would mean they can just as well sail F50 series rather than not sail at all.

 

In reality it means you claim is wrong.

But then again, the entry period has not closed yet, so entries are not officially accepted, and teams aren't officially entered until after the entry period closes. The Volvo has officially finished. The Cycle doesn't officially start until at least after the first entry period has ended which is June 30th (Saturday), and after the second period ends November 30th, so my claim is not wrong. Teams don't have to be final until November 30th.

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6 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

^^  I think "Someone else" is one and the same.

Correct. 

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10 hours ago, mfluder said:

But then again, the entry period has not closed yet, so entries are not officially accepted, and teams aren't officially entered until after the entry period closes. The Volvo has officially finished. The Cycle doesn't officially start until at least after the first entry period has ended which is June 30th (Saturday), and after the second period ends November 30th, so my claim is not wrong. Teams don't have to be final until November 30th.

So now you’re saying ETNZ isn’t officially entered in the America’s Cup?  That’s funny. 

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21 minutes ago, Monkey said:

So now you’re saying ETNZ isn’t officially entered in the America’s Cup?  That’s funny. 

What a dumb question!!. Since when did the Defender have to "enter" an AC cycle??

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Yes Indio. That was exactly Monkey's point.

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6 hours ago, Indio said:

What a dumb question!!. Since when did the Defender have to "enter" an AC cycle??

Does the expression defender mean the club holding the cup or the team that won it or the team that is supposed to defend it?

In the first case the team defending the cup always has had to enter to defend for the club holding the cup, in some rare cases even win a competition called defenders trials first.

 

In any case the claim mfluder made did not include entry periods. He wrote it as an absolute factual statement and now indirectly admitted it was not correct by changing it.

 

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The competitor is well defined, a crew is not a competitor:  "Competitor means the Defender or a Challenger, as the context requires;"

 

However this will be more fun to define if required:

"A Competitor shall not participate, without the prior written approval of COR/D, in any non-Event regatta that is presented in a way that is or could be perceived to be an ambush"

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9 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Yes Indio. That was exactly Monkey's point.

Thank you. I was just mocking SClarkey’s stupid response. Despite the fact that perfectly rational explanations exist as to why it’s fine, our resident idiot just couldn’t resist chiming in with the dumbest response possible!

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3 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Thank you. I was just mocking SClarkey’s stupid response. Despite the fact that perfectly rational explanations exist as to why it’s fine, our resident idiot just couldn’t resist chiming in with the dumbest response possible!

If you're gonna take things at face value without context, thats your problem.

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5 minutes ago, mfluder said:

If you're gonna take things at face value without context, thats your problem.

Keep digging your hole, dopey. 

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4 hours ago, NotSoFast said:

Does the expression defender mean the club holding the cup or the team that won it or the team that is supposed to defend it?

In the first case the team defending the cup always has had to enter to defend for the club holding the cup, in some rare cases even win a competition called defenders trials first.

 

In any case the claim mfluder made did not include entry periods. He wrote it as an absolute factual statement and now indirectly admitted it was not correct by changing it.

 

The Yacht Club defends, and they appoint the sailing team as their Defender. In the case of the RNZYS, ETNZ has been, and will be for AC36, their America's Cup Defender. mfluder's comment was obviously referring to the entry period for Challengers, yet Monkeynuts posed a facetious comment about ETNZ's "entry".

So what was your point again??59fb6db893250_Transfertosomeone.jpg.2ee8060d3d6ea673d42bbd340f1d53d2.jpg

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Just now, Indio said:

The Yacht Club defends, and they appoint the sailing team as their Defender. In the case of the RNZYS, ETNZ has been, and will be for AC36, their America's Cup Defender. mfluder's comment was obviously referring to the entry period for Challengers, yet Monkeynuts posed a facetious comment about ETNZ's "entry".

So what was your point again??59fb6db893250_Transfertosomeone.jpg.2ee8060d3d6ea673d42bbd340f1d53d2.jpg

Cute meme. You guys actually still have payphones?!?  That’s awesome!  I haven’t seen one in years!

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1 minute ago, Monkey said:

Cute meme. You guys actually still have payphones?!?  That’s awesome!  I haven’t seen one in years!

irony2.jpg.6f947a13fa07040b51e2eb0ac7ca6ba3.jpg

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

The competitor is well defined, a crew is not a competitor:  "Competitor means the Defender or a Challenger, as the context requires;"

 

However this will be more fun to define if required:

"A Competitor shall not participate, without the prior written approval of COR/D, in any non-Event regatta that is presented in a way that is or could be perceived to be an ambush"

‘Ambush’ or not, nothing prevents any sailor from participating on a team with a different name in the F-50 Circuit unless their AC team contract prevents them from doing so.

There is a Protocol clause somewhere that prevents ‘Competitors’ (not sailors) from racing surrogates over 12m but surrogates are defined as being yachts that can provide ‘meaningful learning’ or something like that. Since the F50’s are an entirely different boat, OD and with no articulating arms and shifting RM, it’d be very hard to make the case that F50’s provide design-learning for the AC75.

I could easily see a Burling racing in both circuits, should his coming ETNZ negotiated contract allow it. JS is another example, should any big-bucks backer offer them a helm in the F50’s. Even signed with LR, you’ll notice that JS still displays his Red Bull with completely unabashed exuberance. He is already free to earn money beyond what LR pays him. 

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22 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

‘Ambush’ or not, nothing prevents any sailor from participating on a team with a different name in the F-50 Circuit unless their AC team contract prevents them from doing so.

There is a Protocol clause somewhere that prevents ‘Competitors’ (not sailors) from racing surrogates over 12m but surrogates are defined as being yachts that can provide ‘meaningful learning’ or something like that. Since the F50’s are an entirely different boat, OD and with no articulating arms and shifting RM, it’d be very hard to make the case that F50’s provide design-learning for the AC75.

I could easily see a Burling racing in both circuits, should his coming ETNZ negotiated contract allow it. JS is another example, should any big-bucks backer offer them a helm in the F50’s. Even signed with LR, you’ll notice that JS still displays his Red Bull with completely unabashed exuberance. He is already free to earn money beyond what LR pays him. 

I could hardly see the AC50 considered a surrogate, but the MC has sole responsability, and we know who decide the members of the MC

a)             The interpretation, calculation and enforcement of the above limitations on the modification of the Original Hull Surface and the determination as to whether a yacht is a Surrogate Yacht or not shall be the sole responsibility of the Measurement Committee whose decision shall be final.

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16 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I could hardly see the AC50 considered a surrogate, but the MC has sole responsability, and we know who decide the members of the MC

a)             The interpretation, calculation and enforcement of the above limitations on the modification of the Original Hull Surface and the determination as to whether a yacht is a Surrogate Yacht or not shall be the sole responsibility of the Measurement Committee whose decision shall be final.

 

It will be truly amazing if GD, through ETNZ and RNZYS and their selected MC and whoever all, choose to take Larry on in court over Larry’s own, seperately funded boat class and race series. 

Good luck with that :D

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They won't take Larry to court but could try to prevent competitors to use the AC50.

However a competitor is a challenger, and a challenger is a YC or a team selected to represent it. So a team could compete until chosen to represent the YC.

A bit far fetched though.

 

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1 hour ago, Indio said:

The Yacht Club defends, and they appoint the sailing team as their Defender. In the case of the RNZYS, ETNZ has been, and will be for AC36, their America's Cup Defender. mfluder's comment was obviously referring to the entry period for Challengers, yet Monkeynuts posed a facetious comment about ETNZ's "entry".

So what was your point again??

Really? Thats a funny claim.

According to you, mfluder's comment about the entry period for Challengers is relevant for the issue if Burling & Tuke are allowed to participate in the next AC due to their partipication of the VOR just finished. I wonder if he shares that opinion or disagrees with you.

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Don't know if this has been mentioned prev but goss at the squadron last night is that work is well underway up at Warkworth fitting out 40' containers as workshops etc for Ellison's folly (aka AC50 regatta). No word on Core suddenly ramping up AC50 hull production though...

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3 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

It will be truly amazing if GD, through ETNZ and RNZYS and their selected MC and whoever all, choose to take Larry on in court over Larry’s own, seperately funded boat class and race series. 

Good luck with that :D

It will be truly amazing if LE, through OTUSA and GGYC and their selected MC and whoever all, choose to take GD on in court over ETNZ’s own, separately funded boat class and race series. 

Good luck with that :D

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6 hours ago, NotSoFast said:

Really? Thats a funny claim.

According to you, mfluder's comment about the entry period for Challengers is relevant for the issue if Burling & Tuke are allowed to participate in the next AC due to their partipication of the VOR just finished. I wonder if he shares that opinion or disagrees with you.

It's fucking hilarious - but it's a FACT! The entry period is there only for the Challengers to comply with. The Defender (ETNZ) do not have to "enter" within the entry period because they are...waiting for the Challenger to be determined by the Prada Challenger Selection Series.

Blair and Tuke can do what they want, until ETNZ needs them for whatever in-house assignments they have for them. Whether or not they have restricted movements under their individual employment agreements with ETNZ is no one else's business.

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Is a team defined by its legal entity or also the people composing it? For instance if the brit enter the F50 circuit under Team Ineos (without UK), have a specific technical team separate from AC but still use the same sailors.

I don't see how this would break the rule. It really feels like that rule is more for dissuasion than anything else.

On another note since F50 will basically be one design it won't learn AC teams a lot on a platform they know pretty well already. And I don't think any AC team will be tempted by F50 circuit, it risks to divert from the main effort and you file in a team composed from AC sailors, the expectation would be that they crush the competition since they should know how to sail those boats. Anything but wins will hurt their reputation.

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29 minutes ago, Lakrass said:

... and you file in a team composed from AC sailors, the expectation would be that they crush the competition since they should know how to sail those boats. Anything but wins will hurt their reputation.

Did you look at who are said to be sailing these boats? Artemis will have a team of AC sailors with Outeridge and Percy, Tom Slingsby will also have a team of AC sailors, as will others. 

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43 minutes ago, Lakrass said:

Is a team defined by its legal entity or also the people composing it? For instance if the brit enter the F50 circuit under Team Ineos (without UK), have a specific technical team separate from AC but still use the same sailors.

I don't see how this would break the rule. It really feels like that rule is more for dissuasion than anything else.

On another note since F50 will basically be one design it won't learn AC teams a lot on a platform they know pretty well already. And I don't think any AC team will be tempted by F50 circuit, it risks to divert from the main effort and you file in a team composed from AC sailors, the expectation would be that they crush the competition since they should know how to sail those boats. Anything but wins will hurt their reputation.

A team is the legal entity such as ETNZ. Employees of the entity will be subject to the qualifications spelled out in the Protocol governing nationality, residency, etc. If there are restrictions on participating in "competing" regattas, it's the entity that must comply. The entity's employer-employee relationship at the time of participating in a "competing" regatta will be determined by the AC Jury. But I imagine that any normal employer-employee relationship where the employer is liable for any action undertaken by the employee will apply.

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25 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

Did you look at who are said to be sailing these boats? Artemis will have a team of AC sailors with Outeridge and Percy, Tom Slingsby will also have a team of AC sailors, as will others. 

 

That would be former AC sailors.

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My understanding is Artemis are out, and a Japanese team and Chinese team are going to take the last 2 boats. 

my guess is 

USA - rome kirby 

UK - giles scott or Leigh Mcmillan 

France - frank cammas or  billy besson 

Japan - nathan outteridge

chinese -  pete burling or jason Waterhouse

australia - tom slingsby

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5 hours ago, Indio said:

A team is the legal entity such as ETNZ. Employees of the entity will be subject to the qualifications spelled out in the Protocol governing nationality, residency, etc. If there are restrictions on participating in "competing" regattas, it's the entity that must comply. The entity's employer-employee relationship at the time of participating in a "competing" regatta will be determined by the AC Jury. But I imagine that any normal employer-employee relationship where the employer is liable for any action undertaken by the employee will apply.

The simple world of Indio.

- The AC legal entity is the YC

- The competitor in this protocol = challenger or Defender

- The challenger = the YC + chosen team

- The Team is not a comptetitor until chosen by the YC

- The sailor is not part of the team until hired

- A contract does not necessarily obliges the crew to sail for one team only

It's true that the jury are only decided by defender-challenger, but, if that the problem happens, do they want to eliminate one of the only remaining competitor of this AC ?

So why do you focus on the entry period ? it's worth about nothing in the debate. :D

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5 hours ago, agk470 said:

My understanding is Artemis are out, and a Japanese team and Chinese team are going to take the last 2 boats. 

my guess is 

USA - rome kirby 

UK - giles scott or Leigh Mcmillan 

France - frank cammas or  billy besson 

Japan - nathan outteridge

chinese -  pete burling or jason Waterhouse

australia - tom slingsby

do you have any source(s) for this? or simply speculating?

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2 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

SegelReporter writes that Russel Coutts is responsible for the organization of Larry's series:

https://segelreporter.com/regatta/americas-cup-alternative-neue-rennserie-mit-alten-foiler-katamaranen-ellison-macht-ernst/

Was this already posted and/or confirmed?

It’s been suggested elsewhere too but my take on it is that LE asked RC what he should do next, and RC pointed him in this direction. With his own boat building facility available and a bunch of already-built hardware and design IP, it made sense and was an easy Yes for LE, but it made Core have to ramp up big-time.

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i thought it was confirmed he was keen to run the manly club?

maybe $$$$$$$ changed his mind? again?

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Seems Russell is busy with his Sailing Club. A lot of the time, especially if you're as high profile as Coutts is, a role like his, as not only Commodore of the Club, but also a role model for the kids requires 100% devotion. Hard to see that he can devote 100% of his time to the Sailing Club, his Sailing foundation, as well as building a global circuit of AC50's.

 

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1 hour ago, mfluder said:

Seems Russell is busy with his Sailing Club. A lot of the time, especially if you're as high profile as Coutts is, a role like his, as not only Commodore of the Club, but also a role model for the kids requires 100% devotion. Hard to see that he can devote 100% of his time to the Sailing Club, his Sailing foundation, as well as building a global circuit of AC50's.

 

RC likely gave just a suggested direction to LE, about what LE could spend his next few hundred million dollars on for the sport of sailing.

LE agreed, all good.

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56 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

RC likely gave just a suggested direction to LE, about what LE could spend his next few hundred million dollars on for the sport of sailing.

LE agreed, all good.

I suspect there was already an F50-like plan for the next AC before the Bermuda outcome, and when the cup disappeared, LE and RC sat down and discussed how to proceed with the plan, albeit without the cup. Logistically it's relatively easy, you just need to re-scope some budgets assuming the coverage & interest would be less (how much TBD) and figure out where to get cash to cover any holes (hint hint LE's back pocket).

Only question remains is that IMHO the currently speculated version of F50 still warrants a full-time gig, and I'm not sure how RC could commit to running F50 whilst still doing the other things he has said he's committed to. He also said he was done with AC - to what extent is the F50 the same thing in terms of impact on RC's life? I'd assume the same right? Feels odd, maybe he's realised he still wants to do "it".

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2 hours ago, rh2600 said:

I suspect there was already an F50-like plan for the next AC before the Bermuda outcome, and when the cup disappeared, LE and RC sat down and discussed how to proceed with the plan, albeit without the cup. Logistically it's relatively easy, you just need to re-scope some budgets assuming the coverage & interest would be less (how much TBD) and figure out where to get cash to cover any holes (hint hint LE's back pocket).

Only question remains is that IMHO the currently speculated version of F50 still warrants a full-time gig, and I'm not sure how RC could commit to running F50 whilst still doing the other things he has said he's committed to. He also said he was done with AC - to what extent is the F50 the same thing in terms of impact on RC's life? I'd assume the same right? Feels odd, maybe he's realised he still wants to do "it".

Clean suggested it was already in the works ‘15 months ago’ and so yes, predating AC35 and not even contingent on who might win. 

That thinking might also suggest a ‘higher’ plane view, beyond just AC issues. Money had little to do with any of the larger plan, quite obviously.

It’s a bit like the Indian Wells facility that TE recently drew an analogy to. Hundreds of millions sunk into facilities for another sport LE loves, and now a very hot item on the international tennis championships calendar. Is it intended to upstage Wimbledon? No, why on earth would that be the intent? It simply enriches the sport.

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

Clean suggested it was already in the works ‘15 months ago’ and so yes, predating AC35 and not even contingent on who might win. 

That thinking might also suggest a ‘higher’ plane view, beyond just AC issues. Money had little to do with any of the larger plan, quite obviously.

It’s a bit like the Indian Wells facility that TE recently drew an analogy to. Hundreds of millions sunk into facilities for another sport LE loves, and now a very hot item on the international tennis championships calendar. Is it intended to upstage Wimbledon? No, why on earth would that be the intent? It simply enriches the sport.

If it was suggested 15 months ago, then it was probably contingent somewhat on the Framework Agreement signed between the teams who were present at that time. Since then, two have disbanded, one has "gone dark", another is struggling for money and sponsorship, all of which have been raided by current AC teams for talent, and the other two have committed to an Americas Cup campaign which by many peoples presumptions is much more expensive than the previous cycle. 

The difference between Tennis and the Americas Cup, is one is a mainstream sport, which has a vast and sustainable talent pool to draw from, big, household names, isn't reliant on sponsorship, and has a certain future. The other has become a rich mans sport which has a reputation which is damaged and tarnished and has a small talent pool to draw from with no clear path for younger talent to compete, and is still heavily reliant on Multimillionaire or Billionaire backers and has a pinnacle event (much like Tennis's Wimbledon) which will always, by virtue of its governing document, have an uncertain future.

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I love the thought that RC and LE planned the follow on event (thinking they were going to win?).  No doubt most of the framework group thought one of them was going to win, too.

Makes ETNZ's taking the cup all the more sweet.

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