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Larry's AC50 Circus

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8 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

 Evmcause Sclarke Malarkey is desperately trying to hide from all all his previous, endless complete Bullshit. Nav needs a new name too, his handle’s rep is f’ing trash. 

It’s going to get interesting soon, from what I’ve heard, in AC land ;)

It is going to get interesting in Ac land, the problem is, the losers series no longer has anything to do with the AC.

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23 hours ago, mad said:

Why did he change his screen name here a few months ago? 

Because someone figured out who he is. It’s probably a little embarrassing to post nonsense like he does when you realize people you see in public know the source of such garbage. 

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34 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Because someone figured out who he is. It’s probably a little embarrassing to post nonsense like he does when you realize people you see in public know the source of such garbage. 

An act of desperation from someone who clearly had nothing else to fall back on...just show me proof lol that's all I've ever said. But you can't.

The Extreme Sailing Series went to Sydney and no one cared. This will be the same. Supermaxis are where its at in Sydney, of which they have four. 

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36 minutes ago, mfluder said:

An act of desperation from someone who clearly had nothing else to fall back on...just show me proof lol that's all I've ever said. But you can't.

The Extreme Sailing Series went to Sydney and no one cared. This will be the same. Supermaxis are where its at in Sydney, of which they have four. 

You just contradicted yourself. You’ve said over and over again it’d never happen. 

Here’s your chance to just be a normal honest person, and I’ll even respect you for admitting it. Were you wrong?  

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17 minutes ago, Monkey said:

You just contradicted yourself. You’ve said over and over again it’d never happen. 

Here’s your chance to just be a normal honest person, and I’ll even respect you for admitting it. Were you wrong?  

Why are you wasting your time on a second-rate losers' regatta that we were assured would be launched this year? All we've had so far is fake news over this...

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26 minutes ago, Indio said:

Why are you wasting your time on a second-rate losers' regatta that we were assured would be launched this year? All we've had so far is fake news over this...

Because they’re still fun boats to watch. I couldn’t care less that they aren’t racing for the America’s Cup. It’ll still be fun to watch. 

I’ll still be watching the AC with just as much enthusiasm. Why do you idiots keep on insisting that fans can’t enjoy both?

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33 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Because they’re still fun boats to watch. I couldn’t care less that they aren’t racing for the America’s Cup. It’ll still be fun to watch. 

I’ll still be watching the AC with just as much enthusiasm. Why do you idiots keep on insisting that fans can’t enjoy both?

Assuming that the regatta goes ahead which of the unknown teams will you support?

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41 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Because they’re still fun boats to watch. I couldn’t care less that they aren’t racing for the America’s Cup. It’ll still be fun to watch. 

I’ll still be watching the AC with just as much enthusiasm. Why do you idiots keep on insisting that fans can’t enjoy both?

They were fun to watch, but a big part of that fun - for me - was the technology contest, who had the best foils, best control system etc. If they go one design - and that's looking likely, these boats won't nearly be so interesting.

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It sounds like they will be spending quite a bit of time doing tuneups based out of Port Whangarei before the whole circus packs up and heads to Sydney. If thats the case Bream Bay could be a great place to go and watch some high speed fleet racing. 

 

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4 hours ago, Monkey said:

You just contradicted yourself. You’ve said over and over again it’d never happen. 

Here’s your chance to just be a normal honest person, and I’ll even respect you for admitting it. Were you wrong?  

If you prove Me wrong, I'll be wrong. But you haven't. Question: So these boats, this series, according to you kicks off in Feb in Sydney? Why go to Sydney? Australia doesn't care about anything associated with the AC, so why take ex-AC boats that all lost to a better boat to a nation that doesn't care about their history, or their future and only cares about 100 foot Supermaxi campaigns?

Secondly, so apparently the boats launch in Auckland? to tune in Whangarei? Where is a whole fleet of AC50's going to be stored in Whangarei? There is no infrastructure capable of accommodating a fleet of AC50's. One would think with the proximity to ETNZ and the upcoming AC that they wouldn't be welcome anywhere near the AC village in Auckland City. I remember when the OTUSA AC72 was supposed to be launched in, and tune in Whangarei in 2012, but they ultimately canned that idea because it was too expensive logistically.

Thirdly, so it starts in Feb? The southern hemisphere summer, and then what? There is nowhere else to go till around May/ June/ July, the Northern Summer. You might be able to sail boats in the northern winter in some countries, but in others, much of those northern countries are blanketed in snow in their winter. America especially. They won't be able to hold any events in Chicago until May/ June. In the mid year months the European sailing calendar ramps up and there are regattas like the 52 Super Series, the RC44 and GC32 series, all established regattas holding events from May through October/ November, not to mention an AC cycle which will be in full swing by then. 

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Wait and see.....from what Ive been told by those that actually know, the boats will not touch down in AKL.  

The whole circus will set up in Whangarei and then head to Sydney from direct from there.

Remember a lot of the logistics for the area - on/off water boat handing,  crew and team accomodation, shipping etc have already been well researched by Oracle - when they were at an early  stage with the big cats prior to San Fran as it was reasonably close to their Warkworth building facilities.

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3 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

Assuming that the regatta goes ahead which of the unknown teams will you support?

Who says you have to support a team? I don't support any of the AC teams.

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2 minutes ago, Mitre cut said:

Wait and see.....from what Ive been told by those that actually know, the boats will not touch down in AKL.  

The whole circus will set up in Whangarei and then head to Sydney from direct from there.

Remember a lot of the logistics for the area - on/off water boat handing,  crew and team accomodation, shipping etc have already been well researched by Oracle - when they were at an early  stage with the big cats prior to San Fran as it was reasonably close to their Warkworth building facilities.

The boats will need to touch down in AKL. IMO Northport Whangarei isn't capable of housing that kind of large scale logistical operation. They will need to build infrastructure in Whangarei specifically to accommodate that scale of operation. That's not going to happen before Christmas let alone February.

The reason they canned that launch/ tune idea in Whangarei in 2012 was because it was too logistically difficult. Hard to see that changing.

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32 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Who says you have to support a team? I don't support any of the AC teams.

One thing we do know is that the teams will not be AC teams. 

We have one design boats sailed by anonymous people of no particular country .. sounds exciting .. not.

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1 hour ago, Terry Hollis said:

One thing we do know is that the teams will not be AC teams. 

We have one design boats sailed by anonymous people of no particular country .. sounds exciting .. not.

in beach cats!

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9 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

One thing we do know is that the teams will not be AC teams. 

We have one design boats sailed by anonymous people of no particular country .. sounds exciting .. not.

For the life of me I don't understand why so many people are actively dismissive of this effort. 

In theory, everyone here on this anachronistic site loves sailing. In theory, everyone here should support any effort that is good for sailing. Sailing, as a sport and as a pastime, has serious challenges. Here in my part of the world, for example, I had a great afternoon at the beach with the kids on Sunday. Stunning day. SW breeze about 10-12 steady. It was the perfect day for sailing, and yet what was moving across my view? Floating RVs and JetSkis one after another, broken up by the occasional Cigarette doing 60. Only a few craft powered by the wind.

Sailing is not a zero-sum game. Boating may be, or may not be, but let me pose some questions: what if there were some circus of high-performance boats traveling the world to show themselves off in races against each other? What if the local JetSki contingent decided it would be cool to do that themselves? What if some local dude who made a mint selling blinking blue lights to police departments decided to underwrite the beginning of a fleet because he thought it would be cool?  Would not the world be a better place in the opinion of every stinking soul on this site? Or what if the circus only lasts a few years, is not the world a better place for having had more boats, more teams, more races?

Last question to those of you dismissive of an LE-funded series that might or might not materialize with sailors you might or might not have heard of on teams that might or might not have any national identity in boats that might or might not have been used in the last AC: why the f*#k would you say anything other than "good on Larry" and then get back to predicting how much time the JC75 will spend on foils?

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9 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

One thing we do know is that the teams will not be AC teams. 

 

I didn't say they were. My point is that I can continue to take an interest in AC36 without supporting a team. And the same may go for the AC50 circus.

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From Jack Griffin's letter:

·        The boats are being converted to one design - foils, rudders, foil control systems, wing control systems will be identical.

·        The wing control system from Team France's boat will be used.

·        Electric pumps will power the hydraulic system.

·        The boats will have a crew of five.

·        The conversion work is being doing at Core Builders in Warkworth, New Zealand. (Core is owned by Larry Ellison.)

·        There will be at least five teams.

·        The first regatta will be in February in Sydney. San Francisco and Bermuda have been mentioned as possible additional venues.

·        The class will be called F50.

 

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3 hours ago, 2Newts said:

For the life of me I don't understand why so many people are actively dismissive of this effort. 

In theory, everyone here on this anachronistic site loves sailing. In theory, everyone here should support any effort that is good for sailing. Sailing, as a sport and as a pastime, has serious challenges. Here in my part of the world, for example, I had a great afternoon at the beach with the kids on Sunday. Stunning day. SW breeze about 10-12 steady. It was the perfect day for sailing, and yet what was moving across my view? Floating RVs and JetSkis one after another, broken up by the occasional Cigarette doing 60. Only a few craft powered by the wind.

Sailing is not a zero-sum game. Boating may be, or may not be, but let me pose some questions: what if there were some circus of high-performance boats traveling the world to show themselves off in races against each other? What if the local JetSki contingent decided it would be cool to do that themselves? What if some local dude who made a mint selling blinking blue lights to police departments decided to underwrite the beginning of a fleet because he thought it would be cool?  Would not the world be a better place in the opinion of every stinking soul on this site? Or what if the circus only lasts a few years, is not the world a better place for having had more boats, more teams, more races?

Last question to those of you dismissive of an LE-funded series that might or might not materialize with sailors you might or might not have heard of on teams that might or might not have any national identity in boats that might or might not have been used in the last AC: why the f*#k would you say anything other than "good on Larry" and then get back to predicting how much time the JC75 will spend on foils?

Why not direct this energy into legitimising the F50 by starting a thread in MH anarchy or something, so that it can be more than a festering issue in AC anarchy? Right now it's continued and exclusive presence as a thread in ACA only demonstrates that its primary reason for existence is rich man ego stroking and as tool of spite. Move it somewhere else and this problem goes away. If it continues to live on only here, then it's hard to complain about those here who scoff.

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3 hours ago, 2Newts said:

For the life of me I don't understand why so many people are actively dismissive of this effort. 

In theory, everyone here on this anachronistic site loves sailing. In theory, everyone here should support any effort that is good for sailing. Sailing, as a sport and as a pastime, has serious challenges. Here in my part of the world, for example, I had a great afternoon at the beach with the kids on Sunday. Stunning day. SW breeze about 10-12 steady. It was the perfect day for sailing, and yet what was moving across my view? Floating RVs and JetSkis one after another, broken up by the occasional Cigarette doing 60. Only a few craft powered by the wind.

Sailing is not a zero-sum game. Boating may be, or may not be, but let me pose some questions: what if there were some circus of high-performance boats traveling the world to show themselves off in races against each other? What if the local JetSki contingent decided it would be cool to do that themselves? What if some local dude who made a mint selling blinking blue lights to police departments decided to underwrite the beginning of a fleet because he thought it would be cool?  Would not the world be a better place in the opinion of every stinking soul on this site? Or what if the circus only lasts a few years, is not the world a better place for having had more boats, more teams, more races?

Last question to those of you dismissive of an LE-funded series that might or might not materialize with sailors you might or might not have heard of on teams that might or might not have any national identity in boats that might or might not have been used in the last AC: why the f*#k would you say anything other than "good on Larry" and then get back to predicting how much time the JC75 will spend on foils?

Most lucid post in the history of this forum.

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4 hours ago, 2Newts said:

For the life of me I don't understand why so many people are actively dismissive of this effort. 

In theory, everyone here on this anachronistic site loves sailing. In theory, everyone here should support any effort that is good for sailing. Sailing, as a sport and as a pastime, has serious challenges. Here in my part of the world, for example, I had a great afternoon at the beach with the kids on Sunday. Stunning day. SW breeze about 10-12 steady. It was the perfect day for sailing, and yet what was moving across my view? Floating RVs and JetSkis one after another, broken up by the occasional Cigarette doing 60. Only a few craft powered by the wind.

Sailing is not a zero-sum game. Boating may be, or may not be, but let me pose some questions: what if there were some circus of high-performance boats traveling the world to show themselves off in races against each other? What if the local JetSki contingent decided it would be cool to do that themselves? What if some local dude who made a mint selling blinking blue lights to police departments decided to underwrite the beginning of a fleet because he thought it would be cool?  Would not the world be a better place in the opinion of every stinking soul on this site? Or what if the circus only lasts a few years, is not the world a better place for having had more boats, more teams, more races?

Last question to those of you dismissive of an LE-funded series that might or might not materialize with sailors you might or might not have heard of on teams that might or might not have any national identity in boats that might or might not have been used in the last AC: why the f*#k would you say anything other than "good on Larry" and then get back to predicting how much time the JC75 will spend on foils?

You're absolutely correct. We all love sailing. In every sport there is the social aspect, and then there is the flipside which is the competitive side. Now, in competition, there is always the sportsmanship side of things. You win some, you lose some, thats life, you move on or you go back and win it again. The reason a team enters the Americas Cup is to do what they want with it (according to the DoG) should they win it. When you win it, you set the rules, you decide the next class of boat. If you don't win it, you don't get to decide those things, but if you have a preference regarding a type of boat that you think should be used, you enter, and you win, then you decide, and you get to do what you want.

What you don't do, is take your ball and go home, and start something new just because you lost and now don't like the class of boat. That would amount to bad sportsmanship, or being a bad loser. No one likes a sore loser, and no one wants to see bad sportsmanship in sailing, or in sport in general. We should not need to, and should not have to, and should not be expected to say "Good on Larry" for being a sore loser, or showing bad sportsmanship. Unfortunately, he has a history of bad sportsmanship and ruthless business practices.

It wouldn't have been that big of a subject if Larry had've moved on to say the Extreme Sailing Series, or the GC32 Series, as they are established regatta's. That would've been great for sailing if he had've poured money and resources into those series, both original concepts and the first of their kind. this would've, or may have, ensured continued sustainability, and more exposure into bigger markets (namely the US market) thats whats good for sailing. Instead this series has the potential to split viewing audiences, test allegiances and team loyalties and damage other series, as well as the Americas Cup. This is not good for any sport. Infact it is totally the opposite. Make no mistake, Larry isn't doing this because its good for sailing, he's doing it to thumb his nose to Grant Dalton and say "I don't need to win the AC to do what I want, I'm a billionaire, and if I want these boats, I'll get them" If he wanted to do something good for sailing, he would enter already established regattas, like Alinghi did. They've been great for the Extreme Sailing Series, they've brought an X factor of an Americas Cup team to the series, something the ESS needed. They've done something good for sailing. Starting a new circuit just because you can is not a reason for people/ fans to say "Good on you Larry".

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9 hours ago, 2Newts said:

For the life of me I don't understand why so many people are actively dismissive of this effort. 

In theory, everyone here on this anachronistic site loves sailing. In theory, everyone here should support any effort that is good for sailing. Sailing, as a sport and as a pastime, has serious challenges. Here in my part of the world, for example, I had a great afternoon at the beach with the kids on Sunday. Stunning day. SW breeze about 10-12 steady. It was the perfect day for sailing, and yet what was moving across my view? Floating RVs and JetSkis one after another, broken up by the occasional Cigarette doing 60. Only a few craft powered by the wind.

Sailing is not a zero-sum game. Boating may be, or may not be, but let me pose some questions: what if there were some circus of high-performance boats traveling the world to show themselves off in races against each other? What if the local JetSki contingent decided it would be cool to do that themselves? What if some local dude who made a mint selling blinking blue lights to police departments decided to underwrite the beginning of a fleet because he thought it would be cool?  Would not the world be a better place in the opinion of every stinking soul on this site? Or what if the circus only lasts a few years, is not the world a better place for having had more boats, more teams, more races?

Last question to those of you dismissive of an LE-funded series that might or might not materialize with sailors you might or might not have heard of on teams that might or might not have any national identity in boats that might or might not have been used in the last AC: why the f*#k would you say anything other than "good on Larry" and then get back to predicting how much time the JC75 will spend on foils?

It's more complicated than simply a matter of "the more regattas the better"; having events that send the wrong message can hurt a sport. Independent studies in three countries have shown that sailing is thought to be expensive, scary and complicated. Having yet another circuit highlighting scary, expensive and complicated boats could make that worse. Expensive, scary events aren't always good for sports - even the head of the British motorsport association, among others, has said that Formula One is actually a problem for the sport in the UK because it makes the general public and sponsors think that car racing is always enormously expensive and dangerous. Windsurfing went down the same path of promoting an "extreme" pro circuit and that helped to destroy its image as an accessible, popular sport and played a significant part in the loss of 90% of participants.

A few years back, lots of people were claiming that the new AC would bring in more teams and make sailing more popular. Remember the bullshit about how the first AC in cats would have about 17 teams? That was simplistic thinking that ignored the reality and complexity of sports event administration. We should learn that lesson and realise that there's a lot of other factors that are involved in whether an event will help a sport or perhaps hurt it. People as far afield as French and Australian academics, North Sails USA and the British Parliament have been involved at looking into these sorts of issues, and the evidence they come up with shows that there are perfectly good reasons to ask questions about this effort.  

The view you saw at your local beach may have been an example of the issues. There have been "circuses of high-performance boats traveling the world to show themselves off in races against each other" since the 1980s, and yet it clearly has not worked in making sailing popular where you are. There have been no major televised jet ski or floating RV racing circuits, yet there were lots of them within your view. If having a circus of fast boats is important, why is sailing (which has had plenty of attempts to do just that) small and "floating RVs" so popular? The "circus of high performance boats" approach has failed to grow the sport for almost 40 years and failed to grow the AC for almost a decade, so clearly it's reasonable to question Larry's Flying Circus.

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This F50 series is starting to look like the Super Foiler series which took place here last summer - utterly contrived. The sailors are cherry picked using a dubious nontransparent criteria, then paid to sail with absolutely nothing at stake. The commentary will be replete with "worlds best sailors", "high tech catamarans" , and so and so with "Americas cup experience", but ultimately I see it falling flat just as the Super Foilers did. Larry's cash will see that the coverage is better, but yes it is a circus, with paid performers, and after seeing it a couple of times the general public will drift off. No one goes to the same circus twice, leaving only a small number of dedicated sailors who will watch then argue its relevance.

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10 hours ago, 2Newts said:

For the life of me I don't understand why so many people are actively dismissive of this effort. 

In theory, everyone here on this anachronistic site loves sailing. In theory, everyone here should support any effort that is good for sailing. Sailing, as a sport and as a pastime, has serious challenges.

Sailing is not a zero-sum game.  Would not the world be a better place in the opinion of every stinking soul on this site? Or what if the circus only lasts a few years, is not the world a better place for having had more boats, more teams, more races?

 

I had similar thoughts going into the SuperFoiler series - not much sailing on TV, this has to better than nothing. Well it was, sort of. I watched most of the events, but in the end it just wasn't that compelling. By the last two events the racing was closer, but even with bursts of speed the spectacle just wasn't that "spectacular." Speed alone doesn't make for a great event - the novelty wears off. It was fleet racing, but the separation between the boats was huge, with boats being spread over up to three legs, and it was often difficult to know who was going where relative to other boats. Unless Larry gives the crews significant time in the boats before racing, I can see similar things happening - one or two crews always winning with the rest making up the numbers. 

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21 hours ago, Mitre cut said:

It sounds like they will be spending quite a bit of time doing tuneups based out of Port Whangarei before the whole circus packs up and heads to Sydney. If thats the case Bream Bay could be a great place to go and watch some high speed fleet racing. 

 

There's an ocean out in front of the port, and it's shallow, narrow, and ocean bay concrete uses the channel inside.

Ya, it'll be interesting to see the cats in a half meter swell.

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5 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

I had similar thoughts going into the SuperFoiler series - not much sailing on TV, this has to better than nothing. Well it was, sort of. I watched most of the events, but in the end it just wasn't that compelling. By the last two events the racing was closer, but even with bursts of speed the spectacle just wasn't that "spectacular." Speed alone doesn't make for a great event - the novelty wears off. It was fleet racing, but the separation between the boats was huge, with boats being spread over up to three legs, and it was often difficult to know who was going where relative to other boats. Unless Larry gives the crews significant time in the boats before racing, I can see similar things happening - one or two crews always winning with the rest making up the numbers. 

Actually this highlights one of the strong points about AC35, the quality of the broadcast production was way superior to any other sailing event I've seen. Without good graphics and virtual information sailing is an awful TV sport (I remember one Olympics when the experts did not even know who won the gold until 10 minutes after the finish.) in Ac36 we had fantastic graphic, good (Swedish) experts on site that actually know our than I did. Matchracing is also easier to visualize than fleet racing.

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6 hours ago, Curious said:

 The "circus of high performance boats" approach has failed to grow the sport for almost 40 years and failed to grow the AC for almost a decade, so clearly it's reasonable to question Larry's Flying Circus.

If you define the purposes of  Larry's Flying Circus as a means to promote the growth grass roots sailing, then yes it is possible to question it. I see no reason at all to believe LE has any interest in any such thing. If he had, he could have made a significant difference with the budget of an AC campaign for a week, yet he has not done so. Hey, it's his money, his choice.

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Great interview by Steve Hayles and Freddie Carr to start the show, comparing the AC50's to the AC75's. This is the difference between sailing a boat, and "grinding hydraulics and watching computer screens" 

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5 hours ago, dogwatch said:

If you define the purposes of  Larry's Flying Circus as a means to promote the growth grass roots sailing, then yes it is possible to question it. I see no reason at all to believe LE has any interest in any such thing. If he had, he could have made a significant difference with the budget of an AC campaign for a week, yet he has not done so. Hey, it's his money, his choice.

Sure, but the issue under discussion was 2Newts' post and his claims that the series would be a positive thing and there was no reason not to support it. LE's motivation was not the issue.

 

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17 hours ago, mfluder said:

You're absolutely correct. We all love sailing. In every sport there is the social aspect, and then there is the flipside which is the competitive side. Now, in competition, there is always the sportsmanship side of things. You win some, you lose some, thats life, you move on or you go back and win it again. The reason a team enters the Americas Cup is to do what they want with it (according to the DoG) should they win it. When you win it, you set the rules, you decide the next class of boat. If you don't win it, you don't get to decide those things, but if you have a preference regarding a type of boat that you think should be used, you enter, and you win, then you decide, and you get to do what you want.

What you don't do, is take your ball and go home, and start something new just because you lost and now don't like the class of boat. That would amount to bad sportsmanship, or being a bad loser. No one likes a sore loser, and no one wants to see bad sportsmanship in sailing, or in sport in general. We should not need to, and should not have to, and should not be expected to say "Good on Larry" for being a sore loser, or showing bad sportsmanship. Unfortunately, he has a history of bad sportsmanship and ruthless business practices.

It wouldn't have been that big of a subject if Larry had've moved on to say the Extreme Sailing Series, or the GC32 Series, as they are established regatta's. That would've been great for sailing if he had've poured money and resources into those series, both original concepts and the first of their kind. this would've, or may have, ensured continued sustainability, and more exposure into bigger markets (namely the US market) thats whats good for sailing. Instead this series has the potential to split viewing audiences, test allegiances and team loyalties and damage other series, as well as the Americas Cup. This is not good for any sport. Infact it is totally the opposite. Make no mistake, Larry isn't doing this because its good for sailing, he's doing it to thumb his nose to Grant Dalton and say "I don't need to win the AC to do what I want, I'm a billionaire, and if I want these boats, I'll get them" If he wanted to do something good for sailing, he would enter already established regattas, like Alinghi did. They've been great for the Extreme Sailing Series, they've brought an X factor of an Americas Cup team to the series, something the ESS needed. They've done something good for sailing. Starting a new circuit just because you can is not a reason for people/ fans to say "Good on you Larry".

You do a lot of mind reading in your piece mfluder. Larry Ellison has half a dozen boats sitting there and he has/hasn't decided to do something with them. What he decides is surely his business. As nothing has been announced about any series he will/won't be funding then the low entry numbers for the next America's Cup can hardly be blamed on any series he will or won't be backing. Suggesting that he is suffering from 'bat and ball syndrome' is a huge presumption and if the next AC is going to be anything like as exciting as the pre-event rhetoric claims then they should have nothing to worry about.

But 3 challengers? That gives a bit of a clue how the top end of our sport or potential sponsors think about the upcoming format, protocol etc.

Given the high number of Kiwis involved in the last couple of America's Cups the nationality qualifications in the next AC would never be seen to be weighting things in the current defender's favour now would they - if you were a Kiwi that is.

Or is it OK for one party to do things in their own interest and not someone else to do the same.

Just stirring the pot :-)

SS

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5 hours ago, arneelof said:

Actually this highlights one of the strong points about AC35, the quality of the broadcast production was way superior to any other sailing event I've seen. Without good graphics and virtual information sailing is an awful TV sport (I remember one Olympics when the experts did not even know who won the gold until 10 minutes after the finish.) in Ac36 we had fantastic graphic, good (Swedish) experts on site that actually know our than I did. Matchracing is also easier to visualize than fleet racing.

I agree the coverage technically was excellent, and it wouldn't have been cheap. Two choppers, at least one drone, may be more than one, plus those sleek power cats with purpose built pod mounted cameras and all those cameras on the race boats, made for great coverage. They had some audio issues early on with the guest commentator on the water, but that got sorted as the event progressed. Audio feeds from the Committee boat as well, although not used much. Mics on the race boats as well as prompt interviews with the skippers post race, all point to the coverage being well resourced and well thought out. Having a rugby guy as one of the principal commentators wasn't the best choice, although he  didn't do too bad. Ken Read was excellent, although some of the talking points could have been developed further and given more depth if they'd had another guy with appropriate knowledge.

Unfortunately going from Bermuda to the Super Foilers where the coverage didn't have anywhere near the resources was quite a big let down. Bermuda set the standard and the Super Foiler coverage nowhere matched it. I have no doubt that Larry's event will be well covered, I think we can take that for granted. However for me, that's not a guarantee that it will be a compelling event. Will I watch it? Sure why not, but I'm an easy sell. Others may not be. 

NB: Has anyone noticed that SA seems be under attack by bots or something else? I'm seeing lots of garbage threads in here and elsewhere.

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12 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

But 3 challengers? That gives a bit of a clue how the top end of our sport or potential sponsors think about the upcoming format, protocol etc.

Given the high number of Kiwis involved in the last couple of America's Cups the nationality qualifications in the next AC would never be seen to be weighting things in the current defender's favour now would they - if you were a Kiwi that is.

Or is it OK for one party to do things in their own interest and not someone else to do the same.

Just stirring the pot :-)

SS

The Kiwis have set the bar high, no doubt about that, and it has wiped out a couple of potential challenges - Slingsby's Aussie one, and Artemis. The bar should be set high though, it's a pinnacle event. It shouldn't be a protocol that subscribes to a multitude of challenges for the sake of mass participation. It's not a beach regatta.

As for your point on Nationality, it doesn't seem to have stopped Jimmy going to Italy, or Deano and other Kiwis going to the US. The small number of teams would seem to be a greater impediment to employment.

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For some fans it was important for OR to have many challengers, the same now tell the contrary,... and will tell it again if they have more than 4.

At least they are predictable :)

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Yet we hear how C-Tech, a premium composites manufacturer in New Zealand, is building multiple sets of identical foils which are understood to be for the boats used in Bermuda.”

WetHog  :ph34r:

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3 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

For some fans it was important for OR to have many challengers, the same now tell the contrary,... and will tell it again if they have more than 4.

At least they are predictable :)

It was important for Oracle back then, because they dragged the event through court for years, excluding all other challengers from competing after an extremely successful event in Valencia. The Americas Cup was going through somewhat of a renaissance, with multiple teams competing, while still upholding the premise of a "Nationally contested event" off the success of 2 Auckland events as well as the successful Valencia event. Oracle put an abrupt halt to all of the success the Americas Cup had been experiencing by dragging the AC through court, effectively excluding all other challengers and returning the Americas Cup to an event won in court. Sure, the 90 foot monsters were fun to watch, but those teams who were excluded had to find something else to do, while trying to retain key team members through a very uncertain time. Oracle claimed to be "Fighting the good fight for the good of all challengers, as well as the future of the event" yet after winning what turned out to be a lop sided 33rd event, the event went downhill, and is now suffering damage to its image and reputation due in large part to Larry and Russell. Oracle needed multiple challengers because that's what they promised after damaging the reputation of the event. The Kiwi's did it the right way. They won the Cup on the water, and off the water, and chose the next class of boat and they wrote a protocol which they thought was fair. They are well within their rights to do that, and they did it without dragging the event through court. Thats the difference.

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5 hours ago, mfluder said:

It was important for Oracle back then, because they dragged the event through court for years, excluding all other challengers from competing after an extremely successful event in Valencia. The Americas Cup was going through somewhat of a renaissance, with multiple teams competing, while still upholding the premise of a "Nationally contested event" off the success of 2 Auckland events as well as the successful Valencia event. Oracle put an abrupt halt to all of the success the Americas Cup had been experiencing by dragging the AC through court, effectively excluding all other challengers and returning the Americas Cup to an event won in court. Sure, the 90 foot monsters were fun to watch, but those teams who were excluded had to find something else to do, while trying to retain key team members through a very uncertain time. Oracle claimed to be "Fighting the good fight for the good of all challengers, as well as the future of the event" yet after winning what turned out to be a lop sided 33rd event, the event went downhill, and is now suffering damage to its image and reputation due in large part to Larry and Russell. Oracle needed multiple challengers because that's what they promised after damaging the reputation of the event. The Kiwi's did it the right way. They won the Cup on the water, and off the water, and chose the next class of boat and they wrote a protocol which they thought was fair. They are well within their rights to do that, and they did it without dragging the event through court. Thats the difference.

Yeh right, yanks did it wrong and needed many challengers, Kiwis did it right and need one. :lol:

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To those who say the F50 event will be full of nobody's, I have been told of some of the team leaders for the series and that makes it a strong series. Those team leaders are Tom Slingsby, Nathan Outeridge, Ian Percy, Franck Cammas and Chris Draper. All are experienced America's Cup sailors with lots of F50 experience and a whole host of Olympic medals as well. There's a pretty good case to be made that this is as an impressive group as we are seeing with the AC.

I also heard that the teams are being called by their countries, although I don't know how that will work because Percy (British) is with Artemis (Swedish) and Outeridge is managing a non Australian team. I guess its like ETNZ having an Australian skipper, the Italians having Jimmy Spithill and Ineos having an Australian CEO and a NZ head designer and NZ sailing team manager.

 

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12 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

The Kiwis have set the bar high, no doubt about that, and it has wiped out a couple of potential challenges - Slingsby's Aussie one, and Artemis. The bar should be set high though, it's a pinnacle event. It shouldn't be a protocol that subscribes to a multitude of challenges for the sake of mass participation. It's not a beach regatta.

As for your point on Nationality, it doesn't seem to have stopped Jimmy going to Italy, or Deano and other Kiwis going to the US. The small number of teams would seem to be a greater impediment to employment.

Read the protocol, residency time is important. Sailors taking up residency or citizenship is not at all new. Charlie Barr, who defended the Auld Mug 3 times for the USA was born in  Gourock, Scotland and his early career was as a fisherman in Scotland before helping his brother deliver a yacht to America. Even Wikipedia bills him as an "American yacht racer" - bloody cheek. You can take a Scot out of Scotland but you cannot take Scotland out of the Scot".

Altering residency/nationality rules to suit themselves does not necessarily 'set the bar high', it just skews the bar in their favour.

I do agree it is a pinnacle event but a very expensive pinnacle event with GBP110m budget for the Brits while Dalts is claiming you can be competitive for Euro 40m. One of them has got it wrong.

To put the INEOS budget in true perspective that is around 12 Volvo Ocean Race campaigns. Even Dalton's cost estimate is enough to send 3 Volvo teams around the world in a VO65. In an IMOCA? perhaps 1.5-2 teams.

If you don't believe me - check yourself.

Just sayin'

SS

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11 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

To those who say the F50 event will be full of nobody's, I have been told of some of the team leaders for the series and that makes it a strong series. Those team leaders are Tom Slingsby, Nathan Outeridge, Ian Percy, Franck Cammas and Chris Draper. All are experienced America's Cup sailors with lots of F50 experience and a whole host of Olympic medals as well. There's a pretty good case to be made that this is as an impressive group as we are seeing with the AC.

I also heard that the teams are being called by their countries, although I don't know how that will work because Percy (British) is with Artemis (Swedish) and Outeridge is managing a non Australian team. I guess its like ETNZ having an Australian skipper, the Italians having Jimmy Spithill and Ineos having an Australian CEO and a NZ head designer and NZ sailing team manager.

 

Probably not Frank, more likely to be Billy Besson.

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10 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

Read the protocol, residency time is important. Sailors taking up residency or citizenship is not at all new. Charlie Barr, who defended the Auld Mug 3 times for the USA was born in  Gourock, Scotland and his early career was as a fisherman in Scotland before helping his brother deliver a yacht to America. Even Wikipedia bills him as an "American yacht racer" - bloody cheek. You can take a Scot out of Scotland but you cannot take Scotland out of the Scot".

Altering residency/nationality rules to suit themselves does not necessarily 'set the bar high', it just skews the bar in their favour.

I do agree it is a pinnacle event but a very expensive pinnacle event with GBP110m budget for the Brits while Dalts is claiming you can be competitive for Euro 40m. One of them has got it wrong.

To put the INEOS budget in true perspective that is around 12 Volvo Ocean Race campaigns. Even Dalton's cost estimate is enough to send 3 Volvo teams around the world in a VO65. In an IMOCA? perhaps 1.5-2 teams.

If you don't believe me - check yourself.

Just sayin'

SS

That has pretty much always been the case though, especially if you choose the cheapest Volvo Teams and the most expensive AC team.  

Even when Groupama was spending a fortune on the VOR the AC was still more expensive.

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2 hours ago, Potter said:

That has pretty much always been the case though, especially if you choose the cheapest Volvo Teams and the most expensive AC team.  

Even when Groupama was spending a fortune on the VOR the AC was still more expensive.

So true Potter, even comparing a cheap AC campaign (Euro40m according to Grant Dalton) to a fully funded team from the last VOR you could run 2 teams full on in the VOR for 1 cheap team in the AC. And by full on I don't just mean in competitive terms but also in the media activation and return to the sponsors, in other words value for their money.

That fact makes me wonder how VOR can only sell the deal to so few sponsors. I mean 9 months of dramatic coverage, in ports, heli-shots, human drama, drones, 2m people watching the Hague finish alone, 9 months and 11 B2B opportunities at stopover ports with a reported cumulative 100,000 corporate visitors and it was tough getting 7 teams to the start line.

In cold figures alone the VOR has to be greater value for a sponsor than AC so, if VOR struggle to get their numbers with their spend level, it should be no surprise that the AC only has 3 teams challenging or that can afford to challenge with a Euro100m (and above) budget to be truly competitive.

Let's not forget it doesn't matter how keen someone is to compete in an event, if there isn't the funding it isn't going to happen.

Plus with the AC you win or lose, perhaps in round 1 so the sponsor wins or loses, too big a risk for most marketing departments. At least with the VOR there are 11 opportunities for (sponsors) glory. Almost every team stood on the top step of the podium in the last race and TTOP had an incredible message that has certainly reverberated round the sailing world giving each team and their sponsors a grab of the spotlight.

I believe it all about bang for the buck and an AC sponsorship must be one hell of a hard thing to sell.

The other thing one needs to remember is that the AC has ALWAYS been a rich man's game and only recently involved sponsors and governments (NZL) while the Whitbread/Volvo for over half its history has been tuned in to the commercial aspects of entering the event.

SS

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17 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Yeh right, yanks did it wrong and needed many challengers, Kiwis did it right and need one. :lol:

Yep, one damaged the event, the other is forced to repair that damage. 

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^ Agree to a large extend, however, they could have saved the event in a better and more successful way.

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Eh, AC 34 and 35 were far and away the best Cup's to watch to me, save maybe '87.

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37 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

^ Agree to a large extend, however, they could have saved the event in a better and more successful way.

Possibly, time will tell, but pretty difficult position to be in. On one hand, you do what you have to to win, and they did. That meant they made a deal with Luna Rossa that they had to come through on. But in making that deal, and going in the direction they did with their Bermuda campaign, they had to refresh their sailing team with young guys, guys who thrive on speed and instinct, and excitement, so they had to at least try and appeal to them as well, as they also bring a younger audience. They had to take all those things into account, as well as try and repair the damage done. Time will tell whether they got it right or not. But we can't dismiss it before we've even seen a boat launched. History shows Auckland is more than capable of putting on a fantastic AC, whether the racing itself lives up to the hype or not is the question.

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7 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

 

That fact makes me wonder how VOR can only sell the deal to so few sponsors. 

 

I started losing interest in the VOR when they cut out the Maxi's, and now they've gone one design it's even less compelling for me. I know they do it to save teams money, but without a design contest it's not so interesting. Larry tried to do it in AC35 - essentially make the boats so similar, that Jimmy would be able to do a job on everyone. One team refused to play that game......and took Jimmy out of the equation.

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In terms of the event as a whole, for Me, probably 87, 95, 2000, and 2007 were the best Cups. In terms of the best racing, probably Louis Vuitton Cup 87, Louis Vuitton Cup 2000 and Americas Cup 2007. 

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1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

I know they do it to save teams money, but without a design contest it's not so interesting.

Here you go ;Design Contest Knock yourself out by watching design contests

Untitled-design-75.png.8669196855503ebe9c1860796df452bc.png

For those of us who like watching sailing contests, it has never been better with the closest finish to the VOR of all time and an AC which has taken sailing skills to an all time high.  

 

170530115932-artemis-racing-americas-cup-3-super-169.thumb.jpg.b65e22a8a0e3e4e00ebdddd956273f56.jpg

 

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In AC35 as well as Burling and Co sailed, ETNZ clearly had an edge with their boat. I'm not complaining, Kiwi ingenuity, originality, and design nous came to the fore. ETNZ's win was a great summary of NZ sailing strength.

Edited by Horn Rock
typo

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While I'm in dick swinging mode - KZ7, Black Magic (95), Black Magic(2000), Aotearoa (AC35), and Steinlager2 are Icons of not just NZ sailing, but of world sailing. An amazing line up of boats to come from one little nation.

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1 hour ago, EYESAILOR said:

Here you go ;Design Contest Knock yourself out by watching design contests

Untitled-design-75.png.8669196855503ebe9c1860796df452bc.png

For those of us who like watching sailing contests, it has never been better with the closest finish to the VOR of all time and an AC which has taken sailing skills to an all time high.  

 

170530115932-artemis-racing-americas-cup-3-super-169.thumb.jpg.b65e22a8a0e3e4e00ebdddd956273f56.jpg

 

You are 100% right EYESAILOR.

When Peter Blake asked Bruce Farr the question regarding rating differences of a masthead against a fractional ketch he's added 2 feet of waterline length to Steinlager and basically won the Whitbread before the ink was dry on the Farr Associates drawing board because as we all know there is no substitute on a displacement vessel for waterline length when it comes to speed potential.

And you couldn't just build a bigger boat because, as I am sure you all know the term "Maxi" comes from the maximum allowed rating of around 70 feet under the IOR that was around at that time.

Also when Ian Walker was met with congratulations after setting the Fastnet record on Abu Dhabi (the first one) he already knew they had problems because the boat was fast in the wrong directions for the Volvo Ocean Race which was to follow. He was right, they came second last.

Just what is the fun for sailors and SAILING fans when design differences pre-determine the result of race and negate the skill of the sailors.

ALL these events are run on a commercial basis these days and sponsors need their ROI. If the racing is not close the public don't tune in (either on line, in the media or physical attendance). That lack of interest translates directly into reduced ROI, leads to lack of interest from sponsors, leads to the death of sponsored events.

No Money, No Game; it's not rocket science, just simple economics

SS

 

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1 hour ago, shanghaisailor said:

Just what is the fun for sailors and SAILING fans when design differences pre-determine the result of race and negate the skill of the sailors.

I have been a sailing fan since I built my first boat in 1951.  My interest is in the development of the design of faster boats.  While I recognize that some sailors have superior skills the skill of the designers is what captures my interest.

The America's Cup is the perfect environment to show the best designs .. the sailors at that level are all the same and merely provide the means to show the best design.

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19 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

I have been a sailing fan since I built my first boat in 1951.  My interest is in the development of the design of faster boats.  While I recognize that some sailors have superior skills the skill of the designers is what captures my interest.

 

There are all the speed records to capture your attention then.  Paul Larsen and Vestas speed rocket must really get your pulse pounding or when the massive multi hulls shatter transatlantic and trans pacific records.   I agree the results of the Vendee Globe are stunning achievements (but does anyone who doesnt speak French actually bother following the race on a day by day basis).  The Sydney - Hobart is a boat design race.

However, I confess I have lost interest over the years in watching boats with clearly different speeds race around short courses . I mean seriously, what is the point?   Do one speed test, give a design award to the designer and go home.

What has been exciting about the AC since it started foiling is that the skill quotient of the sailors has become vastly more important in winning the game.  The kiwis are being unduly modest about Bermuda. They made some design innovations but equally important the sailors perfected the technique of foiling and were a cut above the competition. Burling, Tuke and Ashby are extraordinary talents . I have no doubt that if this next edition was held in the foiling AC 50s again, that despite the others catching up in technology, the kiwis would have won again.

I am a red blooded patriotic Americun......but unless something changes I am feeling pessimistic about our chances with American Conjurer because I just dont see the same leading edge talent coming together for the team. (Altho that Brit Moth sailor looks very good).

So, in short:

.

Quote

the sailors at that level are all the same and merely provide the means to show the best design

= Horse feces!

 

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^ being a one eyes Kiwi fan I still have to admire Glen Ashby who must be such a skilled sailor and visionary.  He with the others look out there with their sailing skills.

I also think Nathan and a few of the Artemis crew were up there close and I'm very sorry they aren't snapping at the heels of ETNZ this time.  If Nathan had not slid off it all might have been different?

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3 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

You are 100% right EYESAILOR.

When Peter Blake asked Bruce Farr the question regarding rating differences of a masthead against a fractional ketch he's added 2 feet of waterline length to Steinlager and basically won the Whitbread before the ink was dry on the Farr Associates drawing board because as we all know there is no substitute on a displacement vessel for waterline length when it comes to speed potential.

That was the brilliance of Blake - to ask that question. It took all his previous experience in Ceramco etc to be able to ponder what would work best. So the beer can beat the fridge, followed by a couple of packs of cigarettes (Merit/Rothmans). Despite Steinlager's dominance it was still a very exciting race.

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2 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

I have been a sailing fan since I built my first boat in 1951.  My interest is in the development of the design of faster boats.  While I recognize that some sailors have superior skills the skill of the designers is what captures my interest.

It's a valid view as to what is interesting but mine is 100% the opposite. I'm interested in the business and money sides and above all, in the sailing. In design, a bit but not so much. I don't agree at all with your assertion that the sailors make little difference to the results.

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3 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

However, I confess I have lost interest over the years in watching boats with clearly different speeds race around short courses . I mean seriously, what is the point?   Do one speed test, give a design award to the designer and go home.

I accept that some people like the sailors and others like the boats.  The test of the boat is what it can do in competition against other boats designed to do the same job.

If the job is straight line speed like the fastest sailing record it is not a great spectator sport but the results are still interesting when we get to learn about the details of the boat.

The America's cup is the most interesting because the boats are required to sail well in all conditions, light winds, strong winds upwind, down wind, fast tacking and gybes.  There's lot's to watch in the racing but also in the in the development period prior to racing and we can talk about design innovations that we might be able to apply to our own boats.

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3 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

That was the brilliance of Blake - to ask that question. It took all his previous experience in Ceramco etc to be able to ponder what would work best. So the beer can beat the fridge, followed by a couple of packs of cigarettes (Merit/Rothmans). Despite Steinlager's dominance it was still a very exciting race.

Was it, or was it exciting because of the Auckland finish, and because most of the time there were no position reports?  In 2018 they would be on a tracker with positions every 6 hours, or Live.  Would the race hold up to scrutiny then?

I think this last VOR has been thrilling due to the One Design aspect.  That said, the previous one was tedious.

The AC has, and always should be (IMHO), a design competition; but I don't believe it really makes for exciting racing...just for more interesting stories and concepts.

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17 minutes ago, Potter said:

Was it, or was it exciting because of the Auckland finish, and because most of the time there were no position reports?  In 2018 they would be on a tracker with positions every 6 hours, or Live.  Would the race hold up to scrutiny then?

I think this last VOR has been thrilling due to the One Design aspect.  That said, the previous one was tedious.

The AC has, and always should be (IMHO), a design competition; but I don't believe it really makes for exciting racing...just for more interesting stories and concepts.

The Auckland finish was good, as was the battle down the east coast. Coverage was dismal though, especially in Aussie - we didn't get Pete Montgomery updates. I got most of my coverage from Sea Horse mag. Different eras though. There was no Internet back then, or GPS network for the public. Today you take for granted the back bone of tech available. Had we had those tools back then I'm sure it would have been very compelling, as it was a big fleet of big boats.

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On 8/2/2018 at 3:11 AM, mfluder said:

It was important for Oracle back then, because they dragged the event through court for years, excluding all other challengers from competing after an extremely successful event in Valencia. The Americas Cup was going through somewhat of a renaissance, with multiple teams competing, while still upholding the premise of a "Nationally contested event" off the success of 2 Auckland events as well as the successful Valencia event. Oracle put an abrupt halt to all of the success the Americas Cup had been experiencing by dragging the AC through court, effectively excluding all other challengers and returning the Americas Cup to an event won in court. Sure, the 90 foot monsters were fun to watch, but those teams who were excluded had to find something else to do, while trying to retain key team members through a very uncertain time. Oracle claimed to be "Fighting the good fight for the good of all challengers, as well as the future of the event" yet after winning what turned out to be a lop sided 33rd event, the event went downhill, and is now suffering damage to its image and reputation due in large part to Larry and Russell. Oracle needed multiple challengers because that's what they promised after damaging the reputation of the event. The Kiwi's did it the right way. They won the Cup on the water, and off the water, and chose the next class of boat and they wrote a protocol which they thought was fair. They are well within their rights to do that, and they did it without dragging the event through court. Thats the difference.

"excluding other challengers"

hold up

what the fuck

would you of rather'd get buttfucked by alinghi again? with a clearly false COR in 90 footers?

we know that ETNZ didn't have the coin to fuck with alinghi in the courts, so it got left to a good team who did, oracle

you complain about the last two cups which is your opinion, fine, i disagree.

but to then complain that oracle killed alinghi??

and it was lopsided??

i wish we could see the alternate reality where nobody went against alinghi in 33.

now that'd be fucked mate

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10 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

There are all the speed records to capture your attention then.  Paul Larsen and Vestas speed rocket must really get your pulse pounding or when the massive multi hulls shatter transatlantic and trans pacific records.   I agree the results of the Vendee Globe are stunning achievements (but does anyone who doesnt speak French actually bother following the race on a day by day basis).  The Sydney - Hobart is a boat design race.

However, I confess I have lost interest over the years in watching boats with clearly different speeds race around short courses . I mean seriously, what is the point?   Do one speed test, give a design award to the designer and go home.

What has been exciting about the AC since it started foiling is that the skill quotient of the sailors has become vastly more important in winning the game.  The kiwis are being unduly modest about Bermuda. They made some design innovations but equally important the sailors perfected the technique of foiling and were a cut above the competition. Burling, Tuke and Ashby are extraordinary talents . I have no doubt that if this next edition was held in the foiling AC 50s again, that despite the others catching up in technology, the kiwis would have won again.

I am a red blooded patriotic Americun......but unless something changes I am feeling pessimistic about our chances with American Conjurer because I just dont see the same leading edge talent coming together for the team. (Altho that Brit Moth sailor looks very good).

So, in short:

.

= Horse feces!

 

I think you may find the consensus of those who know was the biggest single factor in the NZL win was the ample supply of hydraulic power provided by the cyclors cloely followed by the helmsman not having more buttons to learn than Louis Hamilton.

I'm not saying the crew were not a factor and have the utmost respect for the likes of Ashby, Burling & Tuke but having said that I very much doubt they would have been as dominant (if at all) if they lacked the power to control the twist on their wing the way they did. 

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On 8/1/2018 at 12:11 PM, mfluder said:

It was important for Oracle back then, because they dragged the event through court for years, excluding all other challengers from competing after an extremely successful event in Valencia. The Americas Cup was going through somewhat of a renaissance, with multiple teams competing, while still upholding the premise of a "Nationally contested event" off the success of 2 Auckland events as well as the successful Valencia event. Oracle put an abrupt halt to all of the success the Americas Cup had been experiencing by dragging the AC through court, effectively excluding all other challengers and returning the Americas Cup to an event won in court. Sure, the 90 foot monsters were fun to watch, but those teams who were excluded had to find something else to do, while trying to retain key team members through a very uncertain time. Oracle claimed to be "Fighting the good fight for the good of all challengers, as well as the future of the event" yet after winning what turned out to be a lop sided 33rd event, the event went downhill, and is now suffering damage to its image and reputation due in large part to Larry and Russell. Oracle needed multiple challengers because that's what they promised after damaging the reputation of the event. The Kiwi's did it the right way. They won the Cup on the water, and off the water, and chose the next class of boat and they wrote a protocol which they thought was fair. They are well within their rights to do that, and they did it without dragging the event through court. Thats the difference.

Yet I'm sure it was fine for the Kiwi's to exclude all other challengers in '88 after an extremely successful event in Freemantle? Where we are now all started there. Kiwi's have been extremely bad for the AC. 

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8 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

That was the brilliance of Blake - to ask that question. It took all his previous experience in Ceramco etc to be able to ponder what would work best. So the beer can beat the fridge, followed by a couple of packs of cigarettes (Merit/Rothmans). Despite Steinlager's dominance it was still a very exciting race.

Two sides to every story. You should read "The Shape of Speed".

 

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55 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

Yet I'm sure it was fine for the Kiwi's to exclude all other challengers in '88 after an extremely successful event in Freemantle? Where we are now all started there. Kiwi's have been extremely bad for the AC. 

Bullshit. There were 5 highly successful Americas Cup cycles after 88, before Larry came along and screwed the entire thing. The only thing the Kiwi's have been in the Americas Cup, is too strong 

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3 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

I think you may find the consensus of those who know was the biggest single factor in the NZL win was the ample supply of hydraulic power provided by the cyclors cloely followed by the helmsman not having more buttons to learn than Louis Hamilton.

I'm not saying the crew were not a factor and have the utmost respect for the likes of Ashby, Burling & Tuke but having said that I very much doubt they would have been as dominant (if at all) if they lacked the power to control the twist on their wing the way they did. 

I was there.

The general consensus of the folks who were beaten by NZL is that the kiwis had figured out how to get the best out of the AC 50.  They simplified responsibilities accordingly and allocated roles accordingly.  The other teams were playing catch up once they saw what NZ was doing but Burling , Tuke and Ashby were very accomplished.

That and the NZ foils were better at transitions..

Combination of Design (especially foils) +  simplification of the task at hand + brilliant sailors.   

BUT it was amazing to watch. Now we have the result, its easy to say NZ were dominant but a lot of the races were very close and very exciting to watch. Artemis vs NZ was a stand out.

Honestly it was easily one of the two best ACs in my life time.

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2 hours ago, mfluder said:

Bullshit. There were 5 highly successful Americas Cup cycles after 88, before Larry came along and screwed the entire thing. The only thing the Kiwi's have been in the Americas Cup, is too strong 

Why was it ok for the Kiwi's to exclude other challengers, but not for Larry? This is all just a result of a Kiwi internecine war. You had your traitors who allowed Ernie to get a hold of it and then you had your traitors fighting with Dalton and his assholes. Kiwi's have been strong, but the problem is that there is no money in NZ and too many good sailors. If you are looking for stable successful cups then the Kiwi's have been incredibly detrimental to that happening. Were going to see another one with a mediocre turn out. It could turn out to be as good as 34, but you seem to judge a cups success by numbers of challengers and this one will be the worst in that regard.

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21 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

Why was it ok for the Kiwi's to exclude other challengers, but not for Larry? This is all just a result of a Kiwi internecine war. You had your traitors who allowed Ernie to get a hold of it and then you had your traitors fighting with Dalton and his assholes. Kiwi's have been strong, but the problem is that there is no money in NZ and too many good sailors. If you are looking for stable successful cups then the Kiwi's have been incredibly detrimental to that happening. Were going to see another one with a mediocre turn out. It could turn out to be as good as 34, but you seem to judge a cups success by numbers of challengers and this one will be the worst in that regard.

It was Connor who started the war of words when he accused the NZ Challenge in 86-87 of Cheating with KZ-7. A war broke out between Connor and Fay. When you get accused of cheating (and you don't actually cheat) you fight back. Do I agree with what Fay and Connor did? No,  do I even think its okay, No, I don't. But what happened in 1988 has no bearing what so ever on what is happening now, 30 years later.

Again, do I agree with what Coutts and friends did in 2003, no I don't, but again, the majority of those guys aren't even involved in the Americas Cup anymore so I don't know why you continue to bring up things that have no bearing on what is happening today. What is happening today is squarely at the feet of Larry Ellison and his attempt to hijack the Americas for his own leisure. 

No money in NZ? Are you sure about that? Haha I think you're a little delusional. The Auckland events were hugely successful, and anyone who knows anything about the AC, or sailing in general will tell you that. So you can take your sour grapes, and your box of kleenex and go and cry into your cup of cold sick and lament the fact that your team lost, and that the better team won, and we will see a better event than the two previous failures.  

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10 hours ago, pusslicker said:

 Kiwi's have been extremely bad for the AC. 

That's a pretty fucked up thing to say. Kiwis have been the most dominant nationality in the cup since 87. Sure there have been some missteps, but an AC regatta without NZ would be widely considered a diminished event, such has been their influence. Akin to having a Rugby World Cup with out the All Blacks. Major sponsors from all sides - TV, other teams, would not be happy with NZ not being there.

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Curious, is it not, that the thread on SAAC that has had most traffic in the last few months is this one, that has nothing directly to do with the AC? Interest in AC36 continues to be muted.

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34 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Curious, is it not, that the thread on SAAC that has had most traffic in the last few months is this one, that has nothing directly to do with the AC? Interest in AC36 continues to be muted.

Even more curious is people saying "I've heard this" and "I've heard that", "I can confirm this", and "I can confirm that", yet nothing either official or unofficial online or offline at this stage. Nothing seen, no boats being built anywhere, no teams training together anywhere, no sponsors making noises, no TV networks trying to sell coverage in any market, no teams looking for sponsors or money, no venues trying to sell accommodation or hospitality, , no schedules, no notice of race, yet everything is supposed to be confirmed and the green light has been given? And its starting in February? Very curious.

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22 hours ago, mfluder said:

No money in NZ? Are you sure about that? Haha I think you're a little delusional. The Auckland events were hugely successful, and anyone who knows anything about the AC, or sailing in general will tell you that. So you can take your sour grapes, and your box of kleenex and go and cry into your cup of cold sick and lament the fact that your team lost, and that the better team won, and we will see a better event than the two previous failures.  

So then there will be multiple defenders with so much money? Multiple challengers from NZ in the last cups? What sour grapes? Why would I give a shit about a sporting event I didn't participate in and watched on tv 2 minutes after it ended? My team? You Kiwi's get wrapped up in this don't you? And if you thought 34 was a failure in anything other than Kiwi leadership then there is not much else I can say.

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2 hours ago, pusslicker said:

So then there will be multiple defenders with so much money? Multiple challengers from NZ in the last cups? What sour grapes? Why would I give a shit about a sporting event I didn't participate in and watched on tv 2 minutes after it ended? My team? You Kiwi's get wrapped up in this don't you? And if you thought 34 was a failure in anything other than Kiwi leadership then there is not much else I can say.

Who needs multiple defenders? One Yacht club won the Cup, one team won the cup, one team beat all before them, one nation watched that team cross the finish line, so one team will defend. You obviously give a shit about it other wise you wouldn't come on an AC forum to comment about an AC team, about an AC defence, and/ or its AC fans, unless you're doing it purely to be an internet troll. Yes, us Kiwi's do get wrapped up in it, and thats because we know the most about it. 34 was a failure from an OTUSA perspective. ETNZ single handedly carried that regatta. 

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20 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Major sponsors from all sides - TV, other teams, would not be happy with NZ not being there.

Sailors care about racing with other good ones, sponsors want a vast audience like the US, Europe or Asia. Stop being delusional.

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Sailors care about racing with other good ones, sponsors want a vast audience like the US, Europe or Asia. Stop being delusional.

The America's cup managed the first 100 years without sponsors or spectators so if New Zealand can put up a team the others only need a collection of billionaires to compete, although BAR seems to manage.  Come to think of it we have NYYC and Italy backed by billionaires versus BAR and ETNZ backed by sponsors, who would you favour to win?

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I would say,

1) the design 55%  (last cup Artemis design 50% sailors 47% nearly equalled ETNZ design 55% sailors 45%)

2) the sailors 40%

3) deep pockets 3%

4) other contingencies 2%

IMVHO

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5 hours ago, mfluder said:

Who needs multiple defenders? One Yacht club won the Cup, one team won the cup, one team beat all before them, one nation watched that team cross the finish line, so one team will defend. You obviously give a shit about it other wise you wouldn't come on an AC forum to comment about an AC team, about an AC defence, and/ or its AC fans, unless you're doing it purely to be an internet troll. Yes, us Kiwi's do get wrapped up in it, and thats because we know the most about it. 34 was a failure from an OTUSA perspective. ETNZ single handedly carried that regatta. 

Which is my whole fucking point. There isn't any money in a tiny ass country that has a ton of good sailors so they have to go abroad and what we have ended up with is the cup being fucked up by large Kiwi egos warring with each other. OTUSA won 34 didn't they? In dramatic fashion. How could that be a failure?

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1 hour ago, Kiwing said:

I would say,

1) the design 55%  (last cup Artemis design 50% sailors 47% nearly equalled ETNZ design 55% sailors 45%)

2) the sailors 40%

3) deep pockets 3%

4) other contingencies 2%

IMVHO

I think you missed the most important ingredient, team experience, no one has ever won the event first time up except Alinghi and the key members of that team were a desertion from the previous winner.

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6 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

Which is my whole fucking point. There isn't any money in a tiny ass country that has a ton of good sailors so they have to go abroad and what we have ended up with is the cup being fucked up by large Kiwi egos warring with each other. OTUSA won 34 didn't they? In dramatic fashion. How could that be a failure?

Kiwi's going abroad to work isn't the problem. Aussies go abroad, Spaniards go abroad, Italians, Japanese, Chinese, French, they all go abroad, but they have to work for someone. Someones paying their hefty salaries, and that someone was Larry. It was his team, he only employed Coutts. Larry called the shots. Remember when Slingsby was meant to skipper the Oracle team in Bermuda, Spithill went straight to Larry, who apparently made the call to have Spithill on the helm. Larry called the shots, Larry decided the direction he wanted to take the event, he is responsible for the failure. Oracle won, yes, but I believe the word should be in "Questionable fashion" not "Dramatic fashion" the win, was, is, and always will be questionable.

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5 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

@Terry Hollis good point so out of 100% give me your take on experience?

The fact that team experience has always been a factor puts it at 90% .. hope I haven't jinxed BAR and ETNZ with that assessment.

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1 hour ago, Terry Hollis said:

The fact that team experience has always been a factor puts it at 90% .. hope I haven't jinxed BAR and ETNZ with that assessment.

Sorry the best I can give it is 35% because plenty of teams have had it and never made it !  Where as the fastest boat is up there.

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1 hour ago, SomeRandom said:

Hang on a second, "Slingsby was meant to be skipper" that was a rumor and was never confirmed in any offical way or anything, yet you take that as something that defiantly happened.... Yet this whole circuit is so unbelievable even though multiple people all say the same thing? You must be on that good good. 

 

 

Two completely different things. One is a sailing team rumour regarding an existing team (at that time) and the other is rumour regarding something completely new, which requires huge logistical process, as well as huge money, multiple teams, new top end design, and a supposedly "confirmed" schedule that shows no signs what so ever of coming together. Apples and oranges my newbie friend.

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