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bushsailor

Brisbane to Gladstone 2018 only

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The BtoG is coming around again. We are looking forward to it immensely, the first day is the highlight of our sailing year.

Rushour is now getting there and will be good to go by race day.

There are some new boats entered which is great to see.

Entry list will be published shortly.

 

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The pedals are getting closer to the metal, and with good weather predicted, the owners and crews are getting excited.

Always a big job to get to the line of this race, so it is nice to see a few boats not seen for a long time with new wardrobes.

Latest OMR data is interesting with the last minute decisions on what size rags to hang up, locked in tomorrow:

http://www.mycq.org.au/omr/omr-ratings

 

 

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Looks like a windy race, 25kn around the top of Fraser against a 2 kn current will be wild in the middle of the night.

Anyone's race this year. Lower rated big boats such as Avalanche and plan B could easily out sail their rating.

We have a chance of line honors if Boss and Indian Chief has to back off too much if the breeze really kicks in.

It will also be interesting to see which  monos  we can beat.

Will be fun.

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Good luck to all it will be a wild ride for Indian chief and boss racing .Yes Rush hour will have a chance for line honours if she can keep her going hard when the others back of .What ever happens good luck have a great sail and we will be watching the tracker Shane 

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Not lining up this year on Top Gun with the current forecast is tough, its what we've been wanting since I've owned the boat. i had a new kite and screecher just made for these conditions. However, family has to come first.

My money is on my old boat, Indian Chief. In the hands of the Bergs, there will be no backing off. I've sailed with Joel many times when i owned the red boat. He and Geoff are all over it with loads of experience in Raiders, all be it the red boat is a bit different from a standard Raider as she's a bit longer and a lot lighter, hence more corkier in the ocean but easier driven. It will be interesting to see what sail plan they go for as the big kite may not be needed. Its certainly going to be an entertaining race which no bloody Easter egg will fill the hole left in my gut as I watch it on the tracker. Good sailing and good luck to all competitors, will be watching your progress. 

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Breaksea might be a bit sporty on Hasta la Vista this year. Might have to pull the fractional bag out and check the moths haven’t eaten it

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What design is Rushour? good looking boat.

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Only one more sleep .Have fun and stay safe  . I will glued to the tracker 

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Has anyone had trouble with the BTG web site, it seems to have crashed.

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25 minutes ago, Rustie38 said:

Has anyone had trouble with the BTG web site, it seems to have crashed.

You may be expecting a little too much.

After all it is only  the premier Australian multihull yacht race.

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Yep, I've just been watching the rip curl pro live  and went back to check the BTG site but still down... Ah well back to surfing...

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Looking at forecast. Jealous! Where am I? Not there. Oh well.  Love to be. Still, it’s s huge commitment for a day’s sailing. 

Can’t see any boat (of course, I mean real boats- multis that is) not having PBs in those predicted winds (unplanned and unfortunate gear and human failings excepted, of course) And I think a large proportion of the half boats are gonna get blown away by most of the multis who will be having an awesome ride. 

How many race boats will do sub 24 hours? How many comfy boats will do sub 30’s? 

Have fun. Good luck. (Bastards!)

Stephen

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Brisbane gladstone yacht race live stream now showing the mutihulls.

Commentary best turned off.

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I checked the tracker and still unable to find any multis?

Can anyone shed some light on this?

Hopefully I'm just doing something wrong.

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Two separate races and trackers:

 - mono hulls - Qantas Link 70th Brisbane to Gladstone Yacht Race: http://yb.tl/brisglad2018

 - multihulls - 2018 C.H. Robinson Brisbane to Gladstone Multihull Yacht Race: http://yb.tl/MYCQ2018

 

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Boss Racing seem to be facing the wrong way... :o

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Go Bushsailor,good to see the big girl truckin. What's the go with Big Bird being so far back ? Akimbo was always in the hunt, or is it just a case of no mad buggers on board ?

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28 minutes ago, overlay said:

That BB52 lead sled is leading the multis I notice. WTF ? a TP52?

Not according the results I am looking at

 

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Well...having owned and... ahem...rebuilt B.B. with one thing only in mind (“Stephen, just make it strong!!”) I’ll give myself a little permission to comment on it. 

a) the boat was already on maximum weight (ok ok, overweight,  if you must- light boat 2500+ kg) BEFORE adding liferaft, who knows how many crew and all the stuff needed for B2G.There’s a point where an ice berg (80% of it being below the surface) just won’t go through the water very well.  However, it most likely won’t break. 

b ) having met the new owner once  I’m under the impression that he’s not hugely experienced at this sort of thing and so I’m mighty impressed he’s having a go at this. Good on him. I hope he’s enjoying himself. The boat might be a little submerged.

C)He took the boat north from here (Pittwater) in a pretty kickarse northerly so he’s obviously got some ticker. 

d) like all good ol’ MTB 920’s the steering at speeds above 15 knots is...um...err...well...let’s just say...challenging. It will hold good speeds for long periods but it’s a handful to steer. Actually two hands full. 

Good luck to them. I’d be stoked for them if they get there. 

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31 minutes ago, LionIsland said:

Well...having owned and... ahem...rebuilt B.B. with one thing only in mind (“Stephen, just make it strong!!”) I’ll give myself a little permission to comment on it. 

a) the boat was already on maximum weight (ok ok, overweight,  if you must- light boat 2500+ kg) BEFORE adding liferaft, who knows how many crew and all the stuff needed for B2G.There’s a point where an ice berg (80% of it being below the surface) just won’t go through the water very well.  However, it most likely won’t break. 

b ) having met the new owner once  I’m under the impression that he’s not hugely experienced at this sort of thing and so I’m mighty impressed he’s having a go at this. Good on him. I hope he’s enjoying himself. The boat might be a little submerged.

C)He took the boat north from here (Pittwater) in a pretty kickarse northerly so he’s obviously got some ticker. 

d) like all good ol’ MTB 920’s the steering at speeds above 15 knots is...um...err...well...let’s just say...challenging. It will hold good speeds for long periods but it’s a handful to steer. Actually two hands full. 

Good luck to them. I’d be stoked for them if they get there. 

Cheers for that, makes a bit more sense. Be hard to get as good a crew of nutters as Akimbo ran.  

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Rushour is floundering come on guys get it going .Only doing 6 knts .

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10 hours ago, ozmultis said:

Not according the results I am looking at

 

Both Itch Ban and BB52 almost home.

 

Are you sure your looking at the right results?

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As always the tide will likely play a big part, although good wind will reduce the impact. With high tide at Gladstone around now, boats finishing in the next six hours will be pushing some amount of tide whereas people arriving after 3pm will be assisted. Could be a big year for Plan B!

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Judging by the way Rush hour has died in the bottom, something is amiss.

EDIT

Ok , Then there was 7. Rush Hour retired.

 

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Please note that the finishing times in Yellow Brick have been rounded and are approximate only. This is so that the final placing a are not known until the presentation. After the presentation the exact finish times will be entered to show the actual results.

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Very happy for Big Bird (completing its first B2G and so a PB!) and it’s new owner, Guy Badgery. (And they maximised entry fee value to boot - I should talk - I’ve taken that long on faster boats!)

Of course, that was the easy bit. Getting the boat back south to Brissy might be a little more challenging. Or maybe he’ll be (um, yeah) ‘flying’ north for the winter. 

Anyways, persistence paid. Noice one. 

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19 hours ago, KnotAClew said:

Please note that the finishing times in Yellow Brick have been rounded and are approximate only. This is so that the final placing a are not known until the presentation. After the presentation the exact finish times will be entered to show the actual results.

What a load of bullshit that is. Hate that. All so some race organizer can have his "look at me" moment.

What if a boat might need to request redress because of a RC error? Sorry. Protest time limit expired.

Seen that go wrong before. Results not posted until day after the regatta presentation. Winner actually came second. "Can't change it now, the prizes have been given out".

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31 minutes ago, shane beyer said:

Who won who won who won 

Cruesy would have to be the overall winner as he survived a swim off Breaksea.

Lucky guy.

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8 hours ago, Port Phillip Sailor said:

What a load of bullshit that is. Hate that. All so some race organizer can have his "look at me" moment.

What if a boat might need to request redress because of a RC error? Sorry. Protest time limit expired.

Seen that go wrong before. Results not posted until day after the regatta presentation. Winner actually came second. "Can't change it now, the prizes have been given out".

Your opinion is noted and filed. The race committee and the skippers wanted it this way. 

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1 hour ago, shane beyer said:

love to hear more detail but Cruisy has 9 lives .

Like any good cat . . . 

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4 hours ago, KnotAClew said:

Your opinion is noted and filed. The race committee and the skippers wanted it this way. 

I have trouble believing the skippers wanted that.

The RC - see the first line of my post.

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Race over, shit coverage by the organisers other than the tracker.

9 catamarans started, 5 finished.

Heading towards 50%  incapable of completing the downwind course.

Thank goodness there was no windward work in the ocean. results may have been similar to the C 600.

Cruisey swimming at 2 am with no PFD or HARNESS (aparantly) was a very lucky man.

Multi development appears to have stalled. Mid range monos just as fast and in some cases faster down wind than the multis'. WTF is going on?

2 trimarans started, 2 finished.  

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23 hours ago, overlay said:

Race over, shit coverage by the organisers other than the tracker.

9 catamarans started, 5 finished.

Heading towards 50%  incapable of completing the downwind course.

Thank goodness there was no windward work in the ocean. results may have been similar to the C 600.

Cruisey swimming at 2 am with no PFD or HARNESS (aparantly) was a very lucky man.

Multi development appears to have stalled. Mid range monos just as fast and in some cases faster down wind than the multis'. WTF is going on?

2 trimarans started, 2 finished.  

Certainly not the case in the Coastal classics in NZ and they have plenty of fast monos.

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1 hour ago, Steve said:

Certainly not the case in the Coastal classics in NZ and they have plenty of fast monos.

 

On 02/04/2018 at 8:01 AM, overlay said:

Race over, shit coverage by the organisers other than the tracker.

9 catamarans started, 5 finished.

Heading towards 50%  incapable of completing the downwind course.

Thank goodness there was no windward work in the ocean. results may have been similar to the C 600.

Cruisey swimming at 2 am with no PFD or HARNESS (aparantly) was a very lucky man.

Multi development appears to have stalled. Mid range monos just as fast and in some cases faster down wind than the multis'. WTF is going on?

2 trimarans started, 2 finished.  

Don't think there are many <40ft offshore capable multis in the world that can go with a TP in relatively heavy running conditions, and the bigger boats are 60% cruiser 40% racer at best. The two most likely boats that could go with them in 25kts (chill pill and rush hour) both had problems so not really the best race to make multi/mono comparisons. 

Most of these guys only do 1 decent ocean race each year and it's in their backyard and while I know a lot of effort goes in to race prep, the money simply isn't spent on most to give them the absolute best chance to go through anything they might encounter because it's very rare they have to do it at all let alone for a few hundred miles whilst racing so when the conditions do heat up and the boats are pushed for hours on end the weaknesses start to show. 

There are about as many volunteers as sailors in this race, they do the best they can with what they have. If you want to know more about what's happening, get out there and fill us in. 

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Well another incomplete B to G !!!

more lessons learnt .... do not use carbon rudder shafts on big cats. We now think that the shock load of big swells hitting them broke them down one fibre at a time. They were a solid shaft with a fiberglass  core and carbon layup on the outside. (70% uni 30% off axis carbon filament wound) Deflection of these shafts was 0. They do point load where they exit the hull and that was probably the cause.

Solid stainless 2205 shafts next time.

We sailed a very good race up till both rudders left the boat. Not sure when we lost the first one but the second one was obvious.

We sailed a very good race up till that time. We cleared the bay in a good position, rolled out the mast head screecher and sailed fast for a couple of hours. It was rough with TWA around 120 and a big beam swell. Our top 10 minute average was 21.4. We were taking alot of water over the boat though as we were punching into the seas every now and then.

Luckily when we were well in the lead we were able to back right off and 2 sailed it with a reefed main all the way up and around Fraser. Minimal water splashed up in this configuration.

We did catch up to the 2 tp 52s around Mooloolaba (they started about half an hour earlier) but we were not racing them and we paced them . Ichy Ban was about half a mile in front around the top of Fraser. 

Our crew did a great job, conditions were rough and we nursed the boat but the boat handled it beautifully. We had no scary moments(except for not being able to steer)Top speed of 29kn top wind speed 30.5kn Our trip average till the rudder broke was 16.5kn. Wind speed was 10kn at the start building to 14 as we left the bay. At Caloundra we had 20kn and it never dropped under that again.

Indian Chief sailed a fantastic race given the conditions. They nursed the boat and used good seamanship.

 

Next year.

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Great effort Drew, you had plenty of us barracking for you. Getting home under your own steam with no rudders is a good piece of seamenship on its own. Lovin ya work. 

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17 hours ago, cynophobe said:

Great effort Drew, you had plenty of us barracking for you. Getting home under your own steam with no rudders is a good piece of seamenship on its own. Lovin ya work. 

+1

 

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19 hours ago, bushsailor said:

Well another incomplete B to G !!!

more lessons learnt .... do not use carbon rudder shafts on big cats. We now think that the shock load of big swells hitting them broke them down one fibre at a time. They were a solid shaft with a fiberglass  core and carbon layup on the outside. (70% uni 30% off axis carbon filament wound) Deflection of these shafts was 0. They do point load where they exit the hull and that was probably the cause.

Solid stainless 2205 shafts next time.

If the shafts were engineered correctly, it would not make any difference what they were made of.  I suspect the problem was laying up carbon over a mandrel.  This works well if the fibres are wrapped tightly(ie, filament wrapped with a lot of drag on the winder).  If they aren't and pressure is then applied (via vac bag or heat shrink tape), the fibres that are not running lengthwise are forced to conform to a smaller radius and kink.  For masts, this is not a huge deal as they are not loaded in torsion.  For rudders, not so much.  The best way to make rudder shafts is in a one piece mould with a pressure bladder at high pressure.  We usually use 6 atmospheres.  This is high pressure, make sure the fastenings are up to it, and leave the room while the pressure is being applied.  I had 20 cast iron G clamps on a 2m rudder section and when it got to pressure, one broke, with the rest following in rapid succession.  Bits of clamp flying around the workshop was not pretty.

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What on earth? Cast iron clamps? What country are you in? Bits of clamp flying around the workshop?  I would think 2205 hollow bar would be far stronger and more resilient,and lighter than solid and  but thats dependent on if youn can get it. The rudder on Bullfrog was smashed badly when I hit Bribie Island recently with the stainless steel rudder shaft remaining straight and reusable and the Oregon timber bits and fibreglass splintered/smashed.  I grew up in Port Moresby and watched the lakatoys racing against the yacht club boats every weekend in 1959-1965.         Rudder  was next on the list to be replaced as I have no idea how old it is and what the stainless steel in it  is. Larger diameter hollow bar is vastly stronger for a given weight compared to solid bar.Bottman  PS If one side of your mast is in compression then the other side must be in torsion - basic engineering.

 

 

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At the risk of being pedantic, torsion and tension are not interchangeable terms, nor are twisting and bending.

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In reply to offtherails, a rudder , at therisk of being pedantic, constantly undergoes torsion, and tension and twisting and bending. Even when the boat is at rest in the water these forces are acting on the rudder to some degree. Balance of the rudder can have a dramatic effect on the helmsman. The forces are always acting on the rudder but the balance of the rudder,that is the area of the rudder in front of the shaft compared to the area of the rudder behind the shaft, can determine the effort needed to steer the boat. Another trick I use is to put a hydraulic seal at the top of the ruddershaft tube($10 for 2inch shaft seal) and another at the bottom of the rudder shaft tube and filling the void with lanolin grease.After four years the helm was as light as when first assembled.  I first did this on a fifty foot steel yacht . A mast, whether stayed or free standing, undergoes similar stress to a rudder, the difference is in the length of the levers and the engineering required for the materials used. Cheers Bottman

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Regarding the rudder shafts The last boat had hollow shafts with no problems but this is a vastly different beast. Talking to others having a hollow shaft with solid section through the exit point still failed. The first rudder on the existing boat had this and it bent, solid shafts in 2205 never fail. I will machine the top hollow and taper the bottom to reduce weight.

I am sure you are correct regarding larger diam hollow vs solid but then I would have to rebuild the whole rudder structure.

Helm is a cable system and never loads up so I do not think balance is an issue.

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Dear Bushsailor, 

Big ask building those bits in carbon. Especially when pushing in the conditions like you obviously like to. 

But really good try.

Me thinks steel is a good idea. Carbon is amazing stuff but is crappy at local hi load points. Just so brittle and soft and chalky. 

No doubt you were probably a little disappointed not to receive a slab of XXXX in Gladstone but I think that you designed and made the rudder bits (and even made it to the start!) and are still challenged by the the engineering complexities involved and just having a crack (no pun intended) is really cool and very much in the spirit of (Australian) Multihulling.

Please don’t be shy about sharing what you tried, how you went about it, what worked, what didn’t, and what your building with pictures etc.

I think that’s where forums can be helpful. (Sure you might get one or two know-all-nothing wankers chiming in, trash talking and contributing nothing useful but we all can (should) just ignore them.)

Sounds like the (B2G) conditions were rather boisterous. Stuff is bound to fail. 

When rebuilding Big Bird, I thought about it, drew some pics but in the end I just couldn’t get my head around carbon for Big Bird rudder bits so I milled a Sherman tank down (or at least made gudgeons out of 1/4 “ s/s and used double thickness I” ss tube for a pin etc) to fit a 40mm squaretube rudder box on the back of the boat to replace the standard kick up spade  rudder.  

A little crude and heavy, sure, not expensive but very wear resistant. I figured a rudder is a pretty important thing not to compromise on. Boy rhst rudder has taken some hits! I mean the loads that thing has taken are nuts. But then what doesn’t get the shit kicked out of it on a well used boat especially in the ocean?  The loads everywhere are stoopid, and the number of load cycles is even stoopider. 

Anyways, good job getting in without rudders. (Just on one or two motors?) and with enough fuel to motor for a while.

Maybe you could start a new thread. “Making bits for Multihulls.” 

I could add a boring bit about modifying ex Top Gun centreboards to replace Jouvert’s snapped one. Followed by fixing up the now clunky rudder after the boat went to shore after breaking off its mooring. 

Ahhhboats. Gotta love’em. 

Good luck with making the new bits. I hope you share that process with us. 

stephen

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Commiseration's to Bushsailer and the Rushour team along with all the other retirees from the B2G race. Well done to the Bergs and the other finishers. Having sailed a fair bit with Joel, i can say he was the right man for the job on the red boat in those conditions. He knew the boat and sailed it accordingly to the conditions. It's a bullet proof boat having tested it myself on many occasions in rough Ocean conditions off the NSW coast. 

Last year I had Top Gun's Daggers boards, cases, steering, rudders and shafts upgraded to an engineered, all carbon solution. The engineering was done by Stuart Bloomfield, who's generally known for over engineering carbon components. I believe the build and lay up of the rudder stocks was to Stu's engineering specifications. When they were being made the builder kept complaining that it was a ridiculously huge layup that cost a me fortune. Having seen what happened to Rushours stocks, I'm happy for an "apparent" excessively big layup. My rudders are 1500 mm deep x 400 mm chord. The stocks are 80 mm at the hull exit tapering to 60 mm at the top of the hull deck through self aligning JP3 bearings. The core is a rectangular carbon tube. I don't agree that carbon stocks are a problem for multis as there are heaps of newer big cats with carbon tubes having success. What i think is important is having them engineered and built correctly for the purpose rather than fitting something that wasn't ever made for the purpose, or guestimating by self appointed experts without qualifications and then having to rebuild and fix up stuff that wasn't meant for the boat in the first place. I want reliability and generally have it because i believe i give myself every chance by letting those qualified do the thinking and executing. On big powerful multis it is the only way if you want to have every chance of finishing races. If you don't finish after having things engineered then you can honestly say you did your best to make things right. It never hurts to get a qualified persons opinion. After a few initial set up issues we had to sort out, since then my rudders and boards have been great, steering has never been more enjoyable. In my opinion, Deep rudders are also part of the answer on big fast powerful multis. The all round step up from a fast 31 footer to a fast 50 footer is enormous and until i experienced it, i had no real understanding of it.  

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9 hours ago, Indian Chief said:

Commiseration's to Bushsailer and the Rushour team along with all the other retirees from the B2G race. Well done to the Bergs and the other finishers. Having sailed a fair bit with Joel, i can say he was the right man for the job on the red boat in those conditions. He knew the boat and sailed it accordingly to the conditions. It's a bullet proof boat having tested it myself on many occasions in rough Ocean conditions off the NSW coast. 

Last year I had Top Gun's Daggers boards, cases, steering, rudders and shafts upgraded to an engineered, all carbon solution. The engineering was done by Stuart Bloomfield, who's generally known for over engineering carbon components. I believe the build and lay up of the rudder stocks was to Stu's engineering specifications. When they were being made the builder kept complaining that it was a ridiculously huge layup that cost a me fortune. Having seen what happened to Rushours stocks, I'm happy for an "apparent" excessively big layup. My rudders are 1500 mm deep x 400 mm chord. The stocks are 80 mm at the hull exit tapering to 60 mm at the top of the hull deck through self aligning JP3 bearings. The core is a rectangular carbon tube. I don't agree that carbon stocks are a problem for multis as there are heaps of newer big cats with carbon tubes having success. What i think is important is having them engineered and built correctly for the purpose rather than fitting something that wasn't ever made for the purpose, or guestimating by self appointed experts without qualifications and then having to rebuild and fix up stuff that wasn't meant for the boat in the first place. I want reliability and generally have it because i believe i give myself every chance by letting those qualified do the thinking and executing. On big powerful multis it is the only way if you want to have every chance of finishing races. If you don't finish after having things engineered then you can honestly say you did your best to make things right. It never hurts to get a qualified persons opinion. After a few initial set up issues we had to sort out, since then my rudders and boards have been great, steering has never been more enjoyable. In my opinion, Deep rudders are also part of the answer on big fast powerful multis. The all round step up from a fast 31 footer to a fast 50 footer is enormous and until i experienced it, i had no real understanding of it.  

Then someone didn't do  a very good job of your tiller arm leverages then . The worst  I've seen 

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Shane, i reckon the builder of them would think you're being harsh. he loved them, i didn't and expected carbon versions.

tillers.jpeg

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