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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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44 minutes ago, NORBowGirl said:

Not according to the expert, Hancock. 

Fuck him. I’ll slap his face if I ever meet him. 

 

What a grief thief.  

Ever been to a funeral where some asshole who didn't really know the guy gets up and goes on about how the guy's death is heartbreaking & etc., and then elbows their way into a seat at the service alongside the grieving family?  It's doubly grotesque to use the occasion of somebody's death to go off half cocked on a rant without knowing the basic facts behind the individual's death. 

Props to the [Ed.]s for publishing the rebuttal but Hancock's initial post should never have been made.  It is regrettable.

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43 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Well at least you will have a choice of two.

Well said NOR and JS. BHwithout any facts. Not classy.

It was a total accident. 

You can’t eliminate all risk of accident or injury in any activity where Mother Nature comes into play. 

I think about how bloody hard it would be to get back to a sailor knocked overboard in warm inshore conditions out of a bad broach in a small keelboat in 35 knots. Let alone if he/she were unconscious and in high seas in the SO. So much can go wrong. 

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2 hours ago, Christian said:

Actually, handmeyourcock is a typical South African blowhard, although he has probably been Americanized by now

No no, he is an EX South African. Blowhard, yes. We South Africans are better off without him and his ill timed ill informed ranting. The yanks can have him. 

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2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

So Fish was knocked, not washed overboard, totally contrary to the entire foundation of Hancock's accusations. Hope the fucker chokes on that revelation and Hayles piece.

Crash gybes are often the result of the bow going under.

 

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1 hour ago, Lex Teredo said:

 

 

What a grief thief.  

Ever been to a funeral where some asshole who didn't really know the guy gets up and goes on about how the guy's death is heartbreaking & etc., and then elbows their way into a seat at the service alongside the grieving family?  It's doubly grotesque to use the occasion of somebody's death to go off half cocked on a rant without knowing the basic facts behind the individual's death. 

Props to the [Ed.]s for publishing the rebuttal but Hancock's initial post should never have been made.  It is regrettable.

Yes. regrettable. The front page should have a higher standard. I don’t check it very often, I go straight to these forums. But I reckon many people only read the front page and take it as seriously as any news site, thinking it’s moderately neutral and fact based. 

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Not long ago we had to wait for an inquiry to happen, now we don't apparently.  Last time I checked the main-sheet system was at the back of the cockpit just in front of the helm.

Crash gybes are induced by the boat slowing suddenly at the bottom of a swell and or a broach, the change in speed and direction alters the apparent wind to more behind the boat and that throws the main over suddenly.  Sudden stops and broaches are usually caused by the bow going under.

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1 minute ago, random said:

Not long ago we had to wait for an inquiry to happen, now we don't apparently.  Last time I checked the main-sheet system was at the back of the cockpit just in front of the helm.

Crash gybes are induced by the boat slowing suddenly at the bottom of a swell and or a broach, the change in speed and direction alters the apparent wind to more behind the boat and that throws the main over suddenly.  Sudden stops and broaches are usually caused by the bow going under.

Are crash gybes uncommon in the Southern Ocean?

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1 minute ago, southerncross said:

Are crash gybes uncommon in the Southern Ocean?

Not in boats with reverse sheer bows that take green over the decks as routine. 

 

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Just now, random said:

Not in boats with reverse sheer bows that take green over the decks as routine. 

Really?  More so than a VO70?  How about an IMOCA?

 

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Will you lot please stop quoting randumb. He is a somewhat ignorant troll that thrives on reaction. These forums have improved dramatically since I put him on ignore, so please don't quote him. 

Thanks. 

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Just now, Potter said:

Will you lot please stop quoting randumb. He is a somewhat ignorant troll that thrives on reaction. These forums have improved dramatically since I put him on ignore, so please don't quote him. 

Thanks. 

Ok.  Just toying.

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14 minutes ago, random said:

 

Observing the videos, these boats aren't significantly wetter than the ones I've done ocean racing on the Atlantic and Pacific in lesser but still breezy and lumpy conditions.  The shots of Brunell looked like a pretty awesome and fairly dry ride for the conditions and speed. 

Sorry, will remove quote.

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10 minutes ago, southerncross said:

Ok.  Just toying.


I am sorry too, but yes he can be an entertaining toy now and then.
I thought it was safe in this rather confined space of a stupid thread.
But I am done now and will behave -_-

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7 hours ago, southerncross said:

DD, I'd argue it was more dangerous in the past. Around Alone tragedies to name a few.  Statistically, I'd say technology has improved safety and recovery a great deal.

The increasing speeds of the boats are a whole other factor to deal with.

You may be right, I'm netting off the safety gains made through better safety and recovery tech, design details that contibute to safety, like sails on furlers, which send the needle one way and the increased risk of boats sailing so much faster, which send it the other.  Size of boat is also a factor.  A 130 foot tri at 40 knots is a much more stable platform in oceanic swells than a 65 foot mono at 25.

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3 hours ago, random said:

Crash gybes are often the result of the bow going under.

 

Oh FFS - like the Eveready bunny really.  Give it a break - he wasn't washed overboard!

Sorry Potter!

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Not a good look safety wise is it?  From musto video.

image.png.1bc57773c510446171434a2dca070db0.png

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17 hours ago, ModernViking said:

Who the fuck moved the rock away?
It has been so nice around here for a while, with the top-cunt being silent.
But someone moved the rock, and now he is polluting each and every thread again.
I was hoping he was out fighting global warming, but he is back to all he knows. Pointing fingers, in his usual "so you're saying" pathetic way.

that's a good little muppet, fall in line and pile on. and 'the global warming', that's no fkn' joke, be 'outraged' about that.

 

18 hours ago, random said:

Yeah Potter, all opinion accepted for being just that.

My opinion is in complete alignment with Hancock's.  I do not need background on his business ventures to assess that,  I leave that to those who are attempting to discredit what he said, by discrediting him.  That's just gutless and frankly disgusting I say.

I agreed with him when he warned of this, and I agree with him now now.

You OTOH have not even attempted to critique the facts as he laid them out ... because he is right.

 

I agree with you to an extent, but not the part about these boats being death traps. I'll bet a lot of the elite sailors in this event would frown on a more pedestrian design, and one that would overall, be harder to sail at a high level. but wtf do I know, and I don't even care. 

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38 minutes ago, random said:

Not a good look safety wise is it?  From musto video.

image.png.1bc57773c510446171434a2dca070db0.png

there's a problem? where?

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On 3/27/2018 at 7:24 PM, DHFiend said:

He was working for Hood and Doyle in the 80s on the US east coast when I was just getting into sailmaking, and had  the title of  "off shore big boat consultant" or something like it for those shops if I remember correctly. Three RTW races I think of Drum and the Russian boat, can't remember the third one, rumored to have 1/4 million ocean miles.  

All I will say is that I have been to several safety at sea seminars since 2006 (to keep certification for the boats I am on) when I started to get back into longer offshore events on the new generations of boats, TP52 was the smallest... And at every seminar, everyone tries to ask what what about this technique or that technique and what about at night when blowing over 25...  The answer is each time from some of the best navigators in the world (one with 4 trips around) is - "In the ocean , stay on the boat, the new boats are too fast, you are dead, does not matter the gear to technique"... I have been locked in the back corner with it blowing 35 - 40 downwind on a IRC 55 footer in pitch black running conditions at night and that was is a nightmare, I can't imagine what they were dealing with last night.

my experience at safety at sea seminars as well as my coast guard mandated ocean survival courses has been similar. stay the fuck on the boat, no matter what you do. one of the instructors I had my last safety at sea seminar basically said if you go overboard from a modern racing yacht going downwind, especially at night consider yourself lost. modern container ships many of them cruising at well above 20 knots it's much the same, you're gonna fall stern damn quick and with crewing being what it is it's likely going to be a while before someone notices you're gone. 

 

On 3/27/2018 at 11:14 PM, DickDastardly said:

+1 

It's inevitable that a high powered monohull doing those sorts of speeds in the Southern Ocean is going to lose someone over the side eventually, and it's almost inevitavble that they won't be able to retrieve a MOB in heavy downwind conditions.   The VOR65 is relatively safe by Mono standards, all major foresails on furlers, semi-protected cockpit, grab rails etc. Hancock is perhaps being a little alarmist but he makes good points.  As a one design there's absolutely no penalty to building in more safety, so by all means redesign the boats to be even safer, enclosed cockpits etc. but sooner or later someone needs to go to the foredeck and the risk of a MOB will always be there. 

The French maxi trimarans are a lesson in the art of the possible, but it's a very different style of platform.  Even then, to imagine that one of those won't eventually suffer a MOB is stupid.   Chances of recovery when the boat is an 18 ton trimaran in foils doing 40 knots in Southern Ocean conditions?

Despite massive developments in safety technologies, boat design advances have made deep ocean performance sailing a far more dangerous pursuit than it once was.  Life at the Extreme is a risky life.  Is what it is, sadly.  

it's not just the french maxis tri, the modern IMOCA 60's do a pretty good job of keeping the skippers out of the direct brunt of the seas coming over the deck. if the next gen VOR boat is indeed modeled heavily on the IMOCA 60's perhaps they will have better protection for the crews. 

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1 hour ago, frozenhawaiian said:

if the next gen VOR boat is indeed modeled heavily on the IMOCA 60's perhaps they will have better protection for the crews. 

Deep cockpits are a no simple thing to accommodate on crewed boats with pedestles above and accommodation demands below. Power might have to replace pedestles.

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3 hours ago, random said:

Not a good look safety wise is it?  From musto video.

image.png.1bc57773c510446171434a2dca070db0.png

So it takes a long time to turn the boat around?

How much chance would this guy have of being recovered?  Are these people for fucking real?

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4 hours ago, 3to1 said:

that's a good little muppet, fall in line and pile on. and 'the global warming', that's no fkn' joke, be 'outraged' about that.

So tell us all how YOU are being serious about global warming. Hint: being outraged is not being serious about it.
Or you could just fuck off.

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1 hour ago, ModernViking said:

So tell us all how YOU are being serious about global warming. Hint: being outraged is not being serious about it.
Or you could just fuck off.

I'll tell you I give a shit on principle and thus try to do my 'part' every day, princess. if it were up to me, I'd be happy to go back to candles and bicycles tomorrow and never look at some stupid fkg computer ever again if it meant not ass raping this beautiful planet, and I'm not kidding, I'd flush it all down. 

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Here is a statement from the people of the Coyote - Mike Plant documentary on the loss of John Fisher.

Brian Hancock could learn a lot about decency from these people who know what's it's like to loose someone at sea.

5abcc207440bf_CoyoteonthelossofJohnFisher.png.bd87ac81f2665a132701c33527cac2ff.png 

 

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Another good response from the FP http://sailinganarchy.com/2018/03/29/feeling-blue/

Quote

feeling blue

I Have just read Steve Hayles piece in SA, which I believe is a fine response to Brian Hancock’s rant. Steve is a very good sailor in the Finn, TP52, VOR and past Whitbread fleet, and he is also a friend who I raced with – along with John Fisher and the rest of the Sun Hung Kai Scallywag crew, on Leg Zero of the VOR. So what I am wondering is – why is Brian Hancock so angry? Did he know John Fisher? Did he sail with him? Does he know John’s family? Does he know any of the Scallywag crew or shore team?

I am really, really, saddened by the loss of John. The last time I spoke with him was in the crew base in Auckland just before this leg – I was actually passing on the best wishes from a good friend Amber in Auckland who used to work with him, and that brought a huge smile to John’s face. A big part of my sadness now is thinking about Witty, and Libby and Ben and Alex, Annemieke, Tom – to all of the crew and the OBR on the boat right now, who with John’s wife and family are absolutely – and I mean completely broken. I have looked and listened at what people have said about the loss of John Fisher – the messages from the other boats, from the VOR CEO Richard Brisius and private messages back to me from Scallywag’s shore team, all who are utterly devastated and many are still in shock at the loss of a really good man.

Nobody is angry here, not at “the management team at VOR being complicit in the death of John Fisher” as Brian bizarrely states, not at the boat design, and nobody is making any firm statements until they know the facts – except Brian Hancock, who from his own admission has never set foot on a VO65, and seems to be preaching from some self imposed moral high ground after racing on Whitbread yachts decades ago.

The problem isn’t with the Volvo Ocean Race, or the teams, or the current boats – the Whitbread 60’s were introduced way back in 1993/94, and they were pushed extremely hard by the likes of Laurie Smith and Chris Dickson and were brutally wet and exposed, as were the later VO70’s – the problem I think is with you Brian. Whatever happens – you rant, Sun Hung Kai Scallywag win a leg into Hong Kong and you dismiss their achievement. Now they lose a crew member and you fill column inches with your anger. That is just sad.

Blue Robinson

 

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Can we just agree that Scott and Clean will not put any of this clowns dribble on the front page again?

 

I dont care if he comes in the forums and spews rubbish, we can just put him on ignore and move on with our lives. But its genuinely offensive that he is given front page space for his total bullshit.

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Potter mentioned earlier how desperate Hancock was to remain relative to the sailing community.  I sense he may have ostracized himself completely on this one.

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4 hours ago, Rick Sylvester said:

BH writes: “...I have earned the right to have an opinion.”

 

“I have earned the right to have an informed opinion.”

 

There. FTFY.

 

Oh wait ...

Wow, this thread has more low posting posters than any I have seen before.

A concerted attack on BH requires a lot of socks to come out of the drawer and then a knitting farm has been established to make new ones.  Here we have another one!

One Fucking post?

For the record.  You have all been played.  Generating hits is what it's all about if you run a website and Hancock is good for business.

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33 minutes ago, southerncross said:

Potter mentioned earlier how desperate Hancock was to remain relative to the sailing community.  I sense he may have ostracized himself completely on this one.

I really hope you’re right. 

I am also convinced that he’s reading all this, cause he wants attention. So here’s to you Hancock: go fuck your self. The damage you have done is beyond repair. Please don’t try to apologize to the people involved, cause they don’t need to be reminded of your hateful article with all the fact errors. Just keep silent and away. 

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15 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

Deep cockpits are a no simple thing to accommodate on crewed boats with pedestles above and accommodation demands below. Power might have to replace pedestles.

 

What I'd like to see is a reclined pedal system under a nice rigid protected cockpit with some nice plexiglass. Imagine being able to grind with your legs - ease sheet with your hands. 

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3 minutes ago, NORBowGirl said:

So here’s to you Hancock: go fuck your self. The damage you have done is beyond repair.

"Oh look at me I'm so into the sailing community that I have lot's of faux outrage!"  JFC.  "Oh woe is me we'll all be ruined by what that guy said, let's have a fucking group cry about it!"

Back it off, you are reverting to a bitch-fight school yard behaviour.

But then again ....

giphy.gif

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I don't understand why most of you are advocating flush deck design. A protected cockpit doesn't make the boat slower apart from a bit of extra aero drag and it makes the crew life much better. On the modern French races (even those which aren't one design) cockpit are protected and the races are still a commercial success.

May be in this case it wouldn't have changed anything but every time I see the crew in green water in the cockpit, it makes me cringe.

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This 

3 minutes ago, random said:

"Oh look at me I'm so into the sailing community that I have lot's of faux outrage!"  JFC.  "Oh woe is me we'll all be ruined by what that guy said, let's have a fucking group cry about it!"

.

 

You all know Randumb is right. Ya all just trying to get more hits for this site arnt ya.

Well done may I say.

I don't remember this bunch of  two faced xenophobic keyboard bashers showing the same concern for the Chinese fisherman killed by the bunch of twats on Vestas, lead by the the totally remorseless CUNTCharlie Enright who displayed his cold calculated  cuntishness  by applying for redress.

SHAME ON YOU.

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I think people are being a little unfair on Brian, his timing was a little 'too soon', but he at least has the guts to raise his concerns about the ultra-wet deck and that nothing is being done about it in the future edition. Agree or not, he wasn't shitting on John's loss, he was in my opinion obviously  devastated by it and was lashing out in his own way. I don't agree or disagree that he is being a dick, you decide -  but it is really going too far to say he is NOT sad or he is disrespecting John's life.

The way I see it he is fighting against the wrongs that HE perceives contributed to him dying. Misguided or not, at least he is fighting - and that means something in my book. 

Sail on... 

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17 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

I don't understand why most of you are advocating flush deck design. A protected cockpit doesn't make the boat slower apart from a bit of extra aero drag and it makes the crew life much better.

It's a sailor thing.  They want the imagery of being submerged to the waste while rounding the horn!  Even sailors it seems, even fuckwits on SA.  Imagine taking the photos of "me rounding the horn" if you were in a t-shirt and dry?  "That doesn't look too hard Grandpa!"

And then there are the sponsors who want blue and white water over the deck.

Anyone advocating for a race where the crew can stay safe and dry is howled down for not knowing what the fuck they are talking about, clearly!

It's the same sickening attitude fucked-up attitude that claims that safety equipment is optional and that Real Sailors don't need it.

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2 minutes ago, Greenflash said:

I think people are being a little unfair on Brian, his timing was a little 'too soon', but he at least has the guts to raise his concerns about the ultra-wet deck and that nothing is being done about it in the future edition. Agree or not, he wasn't shitting on John's loss, he was in my opinion obviously  devastated by it and was lashing out in his own way. I don't agree or disagree that he is being a dick, you decide -  but it is really going too far to say he is NOT sad or he is disrespecting John's life.

The way I see it he is fighting against the wrongs that HE perceives contributed to him dying. Misguided or not, at least he is fighting - and that means something in my book. 

Sail on... 

Nope. He claimed that Scallywag just searched for a short period and then gave up. 

That is not something too soon or fighting against anything wrong. It’s just 100% mean. 

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2 minutes ago, NORBowGirl said:

Nope. He claimed that Scallywag just searched for a short period and then gave up. 

That is not something too soon or fighting against anything wrong. It’s just 100% mean. 

Yep. He basically saw the incident as an opportunity to talk about what he wanted to rant about - wet OD VOR 65 and make up a story about the lack of effort in the search effort.

Fucker couldn't even wait until Scallywag provided debrief re what had happened - and it turns out a dryer boat and 10 more hours of searching wouldn't have changed the outcome. He's just a pompous fucker.

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4 minutes ago, NORBowGirl said:

Nope. He claimed that Scallywag just searched for a short period and then gave up. 

That is not something too soon or fighting against anything wrong. It’s just 100% mean. 

mean.thumb.jpg.671d0bb34016db6d09fb4dacefa65963.jpg

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48 minutes ago, Miffy said:

 

What I'd like to see is a reclined pedal system under a nice rigid protected cockpit with some nice plexiglass. Imagine being able to grind with your legs - ease sheet with your hands. 

Just can’t see it ever working, but then again, look at TNZ in the last cup......

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Just now, mad said:

Just can’t see it ever working, but then again, look at TNZ in the last cup......

One of my old neighbours made some money building recumbent bikes for people with bike injuries & paraplegic athletes. Even on a small 35 footer - imagine being able to sit at the cockpit, with a leg grinding station in the middle (where most cruising boats have a rail/table mount) - winches forward of you within reach & tiller aft within reach. I can see it working.

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On various subjects we have people claiming that this is SA and no one gives a fuck because no one in the rest of the world reads it anyway.

Then, selectively, we have outraged posters, going to the trouble of opening the sock draw to hose down comment that they saw no on reads anyway.

Oh the hypocrisy.

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28 minutes ago, overlay said:

This 

47 minutes ago, random said:

"Oh look at me I'm so into the sailing community that I have lot's of faux outrage!"  JFC.  "Oh woe is me we'll all be ruined by what that guy said, let's have a fucking group cry about it!"

.

 

You all know Randumb is right. Ya all just trying to get more hits for this site arnt ya.

Well done may I say.

I don't remember this bunch of  two faced xenophobic keyboard bashers showing the same concern for the Chinese fisherman killed by the bunch of twats on Vestas, lead by the the totally remorseless CUNTCharlie Enright who displayed his cold calculated  cuntishness  by applying for redress.

SHAME ON YOU.

Quoted just in case you forget the words for the day you say that to Charlie Enrights face, or any other members of the crew. 

 

Spineless cunt that you are!

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4 minutes ago, Miffy said:

One of my old neighbours made some money building recumbent bikes for people with bike injuries & paraplegic athletes. Even on a small 35 footer - imagine being able to sit at the cockpit, with a leg grinding station in the middle (where most cruising boats have a rail/table mount) - winches forward of you within reach & tiller aft within reach. I can see it working.

In those situations, absolutely. Just not in the level of offshore sailing like this. 

Smaller crews 4-5 in an Imoca style setup would be one option to be considered. 

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57 minutes ago, Greenflash said:

I think people are being a little unfair on Brian, his timing was a little 'too soon', but he at least has the guts to raise his concerns about the ultra-wet deck and that nothing is being done about it in the future edition. Agree or not, he wasn't shitting on John's loss, he was in my opinion obviously  devastated by it and was lashing out in his own way. I don't agree or disagree that he is being a dick, you decide -  but it is really going too far to say he is NOT sad or he is disrespecting John's life.

The way I see it he is fighting against the wrongs that HE perceives contributed to him dying. Misguided or not, at least he is fighting - and that means something in my book. 

Sail on... 

1. He died not speak to a single person on the team,  the organisation,  the MRCC, the safety equipment suppliers or the ANYONE involved before casting blame... But he claims to be a journalist...

2. The water over the deck was not a factor, according to the team. Read the incident report that Hancocks disgraceful report forced them to outline earlier than planned.

3. His snide comments about the team giving up searching early without having all the facts was completely out of order, and incorrect. 

4. How do you know nothing is being done for the future edition? Have you seem a design since VOR binned the super 60? Or,  like Hancock,  have you got your facts wrong. 

You are right that he thinks he is fighting against wrongs that HE  perceives, but he is doing it based on  untruths that he has phrased to seem like truth.  It is the very lowest form of clickbait journalism that is really just professional trolling, and has unfortunately led to his article being published on 3 or 4 Sailing websites who have taken his old experience to mean he is worth listening to.

 

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31 minutes ago, Potter said:

You are right that he thinks he is fighting against wrongs that HE  perceives, but he is doing it based on  untruths that he has phrased to seem like truth.  It is the very lowest form of clickbait journalism that is really just professional trolling, and has unfortunately led to his article being published on 3 or 4 Sailing websites who have taken his old experience to mean he is worth listening to.

Hahahaahaaaaa.

More character attack.  Nice work keeping the focus on the man and not the ball!!!

And all coming from an anonymous poster on the interweb!  How good is that!

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I will begin by quoting Peter Finch from the movie Network, "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!" 

Take anymore of what? 

Simple. Mr Brian Hancock.

I will put aside the appalling timing of his article and the extreme hurt he has caused to not just those close to John Fisher but the wider sailing community.

I will put aside his insinuation that the crews search and rescue mission ended prematualy. 

I will put aside his entire viewpoint being founded solely on speculation that Mr Fisher was washed overboard, whereas it came to light yesterday, courtesy of a statement from the Scallywag team, that Mr Fisher was in fact not "washed off" the vessel, but "knocked off" by the boom.

However what I won't put aside is that he keeps packaging in a guilded framework of self promotion that the sailing community should sit up and have regard for what he has to say. The experience to  back this up conveinantly ignores the fact that he has never stepped foot on a VO65 and his last Southern Ocean racing outing was 30 years ago in the maxi leadmine "Fazi" that needed a snorkle.

Unfortunately some of you support his utterences, such as the VO65 being "a death trap waiting to happen", and that "the management team at VOR are complicit in the death of John Fisher". 

So if you are one of Hancock's new deciples, maybe you should also give thought to his viewpoint that tethers and Personal Floation Devices (PFD's) and by extension, intergral strobe lights and Personel Locator Beacons (PLB's) etc  are detrimental to safety at sea!!

That can't be right I can hear you saying, our new messiah on safety doesn't believe that. Well in his own words.

"This time it’s about the use of life harnesses. Yup as you might imagine I am not really big on them. I think that they give sailors a false sense of security. I have always been a “one hand for the task, one hand for the boat” kind of guy. Knowing that you are not clipped on heightens your awareness. Makes you super sensitive to your surroundings". 

"Seriously, it’s time we all started to think for ourselves again. What has happened to us? Why do we all just follow along like a bunch of sheep? It’s not just pfd’s, it’s everything".

It seems Hancock draws his inspiration on shipboard safety from a brother who lives in the bush in Botswana and never carries a gun even though it’s wildest Africa. His logic is you carry a gun you get careless. You know that you have a gun there to bail you out if you get in trouble. 

It seems without a gun and in sailings case, without a PFD and tether, your senses are heightened according to Hancock. He claims you are then very aware of your surroundings and you never take chances, relying on your senses to become honed and heightened.

Maybe when his brother confronts a lion he goes about talking it to death with gobblygook like his sailing sibling?

If Hancock was advocating the message "stay on board otherwise your potentially dead", no one would disagree. However to go on and effectively say if your dead why bother doning a tether and PFD in the first place because "awareness" without that gear provides greater protection! That is loonyspeak. 

I will leave it to you to decide where  Hancock's views lie in the ongoing discussions, evolution and actions by the world sailing community to improve safety in our sport.

My thinking is his views belong in a piece of his anatomy used when sitting down.

References

http://sailinganarchy.com/2018/03/27/extreme-anger/

http://sailinganarchy.com/2015/10/25/youre-pathetic/

http://sailinganarchy.com/2016/09/16/death-threat-anyone/

Fazi..note low freeboard and deck layout  from an era Hancock considers a safety benchmark and superior to the modern VO65.

fazisi-Barker-photo-3-1024x648.jpg

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3 hours ago, random said:

And all coming from an anonymous poster on the interweb!  How good is that!

And this is a comment from a gutless troll who does not have the balls to post on the forum without hiding behind his own anonymous profile. 

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23 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

I will begin by quoting Peter Finch from the movie Network, "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!" 

Take anymore of what? 

Simple. Mr Brian Hancock.

I will put aside the appalling timing of his article and the extreme hurt he has caused to not just those close to John Fisher but the wider sailing community.

I will put aside his insinuation that the crews search and rescue mission ended prematualy. 

I will put aside his entire viewpoint being founded solely on speculation that Mr Fisher was washed overboard, whereas it came to light yesterday, courtesy of a statement from the Scallywag team, that Mr Fisher was in fact not "washed off" the vessel, but "knocked off" by the boom.

However what I won't put aside is that he keeps packaging in a guilded framework of self promotion that the sailing community should sit up and have regard for what he has to say. The experience to  back this up conveinantly ignores the fact that he has never stepped foot on a VO65 and his last Southern Ocean racing outing was 30 years ago in the maxi leadmine "Fazi" that needed a snorkle.

Unfortunately some of you support his utterences, such as the VO65 being "a death trap waiting to happen", and that "the management team at VOR are complicit in the death of John Fisher". 

So if you are one of Hancock's new decipels maybe you should also give thought to his viewpoint that tethers and Personal Floation Devices (PFD's) and by extension, intergral strobe lights and Personel Locator Beacons (PLB's) etc  are detrimental to safety at sea!!

That can't be right I can hear you saying, our new messiah on safety doesn't believe that. Well in his own words.

"This time it’s about the use of life harnesses. Yup as you might imagine I am not really big on them. I think that they give sailors a false sense of security. I have always been a “one hand for the task, one hand for the boat” kind of guy. Knowing that you are not clipped on heightens your awareness. Makes you super sensitive to your surroundings". 

"Seriously, it’s time we all started to think for ourselves again. What has happened to us? Why do we all just follow along like a bunch of sheep? It’s not just pfd’s, it’s everything".

It seems Hancock draws his inspiration on shipboard safety from a brother who lives in the bush in Botswana and never carries a gun even though it’s wildest Africa. His logic is you carry a gun you get careless. You know that you have a gun there to bail you out if you get in trouble. 

It seems without a gun and in sailings case, without a PFD and tether, your senses are heightened according to Hancock. He claims you are then very aware of your surroundings and you never take chances, relying on your senses to become honed and heightened.

Maybe when his brother confronts a lion he goes about talking it to death with gobblygook like his sailing sibling?

If Hancock was advocating the message "stay on board otherwise your potentially dead", no one would disagree. However to go on and effectively say if your dead why bother doning a tether and PFD in the first place because "awareness" without that gear provides greater protection! That is loonyspeak. 

I will leave it to you to decide where  Hancock's views lie in the ongoing discussions, evolution and actions by the world sailing community to improve safety in our sport.

My thinking is his views belong in a piece of his anatomy used when sitting down.

References

http://sailinganarchy.com/2018/03/27/extreme-anger/

http://sailinganarchy.com/2015/10/25/youre-pathetic/

http://sailinganarchy.com/2016/09/16/death-threat-anyone/

Fazi..note low freeboard and deck layout  from an era Hancock considers a safety benchmark and superior to the modern VO65.

 

nod8c.gif

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I agree completely with all that Jack has said above, in addition to many others, with regard to at least 2 of BH's articles.  

As I said previously on this and other threads, when I first joined SA in January I read BH's utterly unfounded, factually inaccurate, speculative, mean-spirited FP article about the Vestas11 accident outside HK and was very angry.

I don't know how I ended up on the FP at that time. No investigation had been done, very few facts other than the fact that there had been a collision and someone not aboard Vestas11 was dead. I was outraged that BH had somehow by someone been given such a forum (pun not necessarily intended) to espouse such garbage.  And I said so.  I immediately, without research, wrote "Who the f*** is Brian Hancock?"

Very sadly, and unfortunately, his history has repeated itself, and same the type of misinformed, factually incorrect, speculative, mean spirited, ill-timed stuff is precisely what once again been printed on FP with regard to John Fischer going overboard.

I understand people on the threads of SA can say pretty much whatever they want.

But to provide someone an "exalted" place such as the FP to the extent it is quoted in other publications and viewed possibly as "fact" from a reliable source who may himself have reliable sources and is possibly deemed by an uninformed community of actual, future,  or armchair sailors is simply wrong and needs to end.  The SA is giving credence to someone who is not qualified, does not do even minimal or appropriate research and/or fact check, is too incosiderate, and possibly has some sort of alternate agenda, to write what he does. 

It is beyond time that the owner of SA replace BH. If the FP is needed for revenue reasons, there must be someone, or rotating someones, who can provide knowledgeable, informed, accurate, whatever it is that is desired to be "reported" or "discussed" on the FP. 
"

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5 hours ago, mad said:

In those situations, absolutely. Just not in the level of offshore sailing like this. 

Smaller crews 4-5 in an Imoca style setup would be one option to be considered. 

All you would need is 4 gorillas in a pit and 5 drivers.........

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43 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

I will begin by quoting Peter Finch from the movie Network, "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!" 

Take anymore of what? 

Simple. Mr Brian Hancock.

I will put aside the appalling timing of his article and the extreme hurt he has caused to not just those close to John Fisher but the wider sailing community.

I will put aside his insinuation that the crews search and rescue mission ended prematualy. 

I will put aside his entire viewpoint being founded solely on speculation that Mr Fisher was washed overboard, whereas it came to light yesterday, courtesy of a statement from the Scallywag team, that Mr Fisher was in fact not "washed off" the vessel, but "knocked off" by the boom.

However what I won't put aside is that he keeps packaging in a guilded framework of self promotion that the sailing community should sit up and have regard for what he has to say. The experience to  back this up conveinantly ignores the fact that he has never stepped foot on a VO65 and his last Southern Ocean racing outing was 30 years ago in the maxi leadmine "Fazi" that needed a snorkle.

Unfortunately some of you support his utterences, such as the VO65 being "a death trap waiting to happen", and that "the management team at VOR are complicit in the death of John Fisher". 

So if you are one of Hancock's new deciples, maybe you should also give thought to his viewpoint that tethers and Personal Floation Devices (PFD's) and by extension, intergral strobe lights and Personel Locator Beacons (PLB's) etc  are detrimental to safety at sea!!

That can't be right I can hear you saying, our new messiah on safety doesn't believe that. Well in his own words.

"This time it’s about the use of life harnesses. Yup as you might imagine I am not really big on them. I think that they give sailors a false sense of security. I have always been a “one hand for the task, one hand for the boat” kind of guy. Knowing that you are not clipped on heightens your awareness. Makes you super sensitive to your surroundings". 

"Seriously, it’s time we all started to think for ourselves again. What has happened to us? Why do we all just follow along like a bunch of sheep? It’s not just pfd’s, it’s everything".

It seems Hancock draws his inspiration on shipboard safety from a brother who lives in the bush in Botswana and never carries a gun even though it’s wildest Africa. His logic is you carry a gun you get careless. You know that you have a gun there to bail you out if you get in trouble. 

It seems without a gun and in sailings case, without a PFD and tether, your senses are heightened according to Hancock. He claims you are then very aware of your surroundings and you never take chances, relying on your senses to become honed and heightened.

Maybe when his brother confronts a lion he goes about talking it to death with gobblygook like his sailing sibling?

If Hancock was advocating the message "stay on board otherwise your potentially dead", no one would disagree. However to go on and effectively say if your dead why bother doning a tether and PFD in the first place because "awareness" without that gear provides greater protection! That is loonyspeak. 

I will leave it to you to decide where  Hancock's views lie in the ongoing discussions, evolution and actions by the world sailing community to improve safety in our sport.

My thinking is his views belong in a piece of his anatomy used when sitting down.

References

http://sailinganarchy.com/2018/03/27/extreme-anger/

http://sailinganarchy.com/2015/10/25/youre-pathetic/

http://sailinganarchy.com/2016/09/16/death-threat-anyone/

Fazi..note low freeboard and deck layout  from an era Hancock considers a safety benchmark and superior to the modern VO65.

fazisi-Barker-photo-3-1024x648.jpg

Bugger you Jack - I wanted to say all that. I am kidding of course. You have perfectly put into words what many of us on here are thinking, I'm sure.

He does our sport a disservice, not because sailors who know better read his stuff and recognise it for the falsehoods it is but non sailing media pick up on elements of it and re-transmit it and before you know it 'sailing is a deadly sport' and 'sailors are irresponsible people' and the 'VOR is culpable' all of which we know is exaggeration or worse.

Can't blame the Editor for posting however as one could hardly call the site 'anarchy' without allowing people with anarchical views to post them. It does however give equal opportunity for the likes of Blue Robinson's sensible, sensitive and (surprisingly) calm response to  the self promoting BH.

SS

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10 hours ago, macca said:

Can we just agree that Scott and Clean will not put any of this clowns dribble on the front page again?

 

I dont care if he comes in the forums and spews rubbish, we can just put him on ignore and move on with our lives. But its genuinely offensive that he is given front page space for his total bullshit.

no such thing as bad publicity .

"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." - Evelyn Beatrice Hall

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3 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

I will begin by quoting Peter Finch from the movie Network, "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!" 

Take anymore of what? 

Simple. Mr Brian Hancock.

I will put aside the appalling timing of his article and the extreme hurt he has caused to not just those close to John Fisher but the wider sailing community.

I will put aside his insinuation that the crews search and rescue mission ended prematualy. 

I will put aside his entire viewpoint being founded solely on speculation that Mr Fisher was washed overboard, whereas it came to light yesterday, courtesy of a statement from the Scallywag team, that Mr Fisher was in fact not "washed off" the vessel, but "knocked off" by the boom.

However what I won't put aside is that he keeps packaging in a guilded framework of self promotion that the sailing community should sit up and have regard for what he has to say. The experience to  back this up conveinantly ignores the fact that he has never stepped foot on a VO65 and his last Southern Ocean racing outing was 30 years ago in the maxi leadmine "Fazi" that needed a snorkle.

Unfortunately some of you support his utterences, such as the VO65 being "a death trap waiting to happen", and that "the management team at VOR are complicit in the death of John Fisher". 

So if you are one of Hancock's new deciples, maybe you should also give thought to his viewpoint that tethers and Personal Floation Devices (PFD's) and by extension, intergral strobe lights and Personel Locator Beacons (PLB's) etc  are detrimental to safety at sea!!

That can't be right I can hear you saying, our new messiah on safety doesn't believe that. Well in his own words.

"This time it’s about the use of life harnesses. Yup as you might imagine I am not really big on them. I think that they give sailors a false sense of security. I have always been a “one hand for the task, one hand for the boat” kind of guy. Knowing that you are not clipped on heightens your awareness. Makes you super sensitive to your surroundings". 

"Seriously, it’s time we all started to think for ourselves again. What has happened to us? Why do we all just follow along like a bunch of sheep? It’s not just pfd’s, it’s everything".

It seems Hancock draws his inspiration on shipboard safety from a brother who lives in the bush in Botswana and never carries a gun even though it’s wildest Africa. His logic is you carry a gun you get careless. You know that you have a gun there to bail you out if you get in trouble. 

It seems without a gun and in sailings case, without a PFD and tether, your senses are heightened according to Hancock. He claims you are then very aware of your surroundings and you never take chances, relying on your senses to become honed and heightened.

Maybe when his brother confronts a lion he goes about talking it to death with gobblygook like his sailing sibling?

If Hancock was advocating the message "stay on board otherwise your potentially dead", no one would disagree. However to go on and effectively say if your dead why bother doning a tether and PFD in the first place because "awareness" without that gear provides greater protection! That is loonyspeak. 

I will leave it to you to decide where  Hancock's views lie in the ongoing discussions, evolution and actions by the world sailing community to improve safety in our sport.

My thinking is his views belong in a piece of his anatomy used when sitting down.

References

http://sailinganarchy.com/2018/03/27/extreme-anger/

http://sailinganarchy.com/2015/10/25/youre-pathetic/

http://sailinganarchy.com/2016/09/16/death-threat-anyone/

Fazi..note low freeboard and deck layout  from an era Hancock considers a safety benchmark and superior to the modern VO65.

fazisi-Barker-photo-3-1024x648.jpg

Nicely put young man

DD

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7 hours ago, random said:

Hahahaahaaaaa.

More character attack.  Nice work keeping the focus on the man and not the ball!!!

And all coming from an anonymous poster on the interweb!  How good is that!

Random, if you have been here a while and don't know Potter's credentials (or NBG for that matter, or SS etc.), you aren't concentrating.  You are attacking people who are much closer to the team than you, and you aren't being particularly nice about it.  If you look at the calibre of the people you are disagreeing with, it should give you a hint that you are on the wrong side of the argument.

Please shut the fuck up.

Sorry for quoting him again Potter!

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4 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

fazisi-Barker-photo-3-1024x648.jpg

Yeah, that boat looks a lot safer and dry....
Fugly though.
Nice touch with the center cockpit, that should keep them extra dry.
Was that the only ride he could get?

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9 hours ago, Potter said:

1. He died not speak to a single person on the team,  the organisation,  the MRCC, the safety equipment suppliers or the ANYONE involved before casting blame... But he claims to be a journalist...

2. The water over the deck was not a factor, according to the team. Read the incident report that Hancocks disgraceful report forced them to outline earlier than planned.

3. His snide comments about the team giving up searching early without having all the facts was completely out of order, and incorrect. 

4. How do you know nothing is being done for the future edition? Have you seem a design since VOR binned the super 60? Or,  like Hancock,  have you got your facts wrong. 

You are right that he thinks he is fighting against wrongs that HE  perceives, but he is doing it based on  untruths that he has phrased to seem like truth.  It is the very lowest form of clickbait journalism that is really just professional trolling, and has unfortunately led to his article being published on 3 or 4 Sailing websites who have taken his old experience to mean he is worth listening to.

 

To be clear: I am not defending his actions, I just like to see a fair playing field. 1- He was definitely too soon to comment. 3- I see he said they searched for 2 hours and gave up, although probably in his mind meant to be factual that can be read as very 'mean', especially by the crew, so NOT good! 

Like it or not, hot and nasty debates like this do often create good outcomes for the future, you have to rip the scab off a sore subject to heal properly. Safety will be at the forefront of the new boat's conception and if blue water knee deep in cockpit is not deemed a major safety issue then I will fully support the people with real world experience! Period.

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1 hour ago, Recidivist said:

Random, if you have been here a while and don't know Potter's credentials (or NBG for that matter, or SS etc.), you aren't concentrating.  You are attacking people who are much closer to the team than you, and you aren't being particularly nice about it.  If you look at the calibre of the people you are disagreeing with, it should give you a hint that you are on the wrong side of the argument.

Please shut the fuck up.

Sorry for quoting him again Potter!

I could not give two fucks who these people are, they are clearly bias and ignore the facts when it suits them.  They attack the man, not the ball, that's fucked.  They are clearly too close to the team to be objective.

Me?  I have sat back and said that these boats are unnecessarily dangerous.  They are designed to generate clicks at the cost of the safety of the crew, even if some of the crew want it that way to add images to the scrapbook.

And I won't shut the fuck up, no way.  I will keep pointing out when fan-boys with a vested interest in the event speak bull$hit.

In fact I think it was extremely poor form for these same fan-boy cunts to instantly start "oh look over there!  The yellow boat is going fast!!!"  before the MOB was even cold.  That's fucking worse than what I was doing, they were plugging commerciali$m, I was advocating safety.

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5 hours ago, random said:

image.thumb.png.233fcac6980adfca6ef6e1ce834b7dd8.png

You must have missed this one.

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4 minutes ago, random said:

I could not give two fucks who these people are, they are clearly bias and ignore the facts when it suits them.  They attack the man, not the ball, that's fucked.  ow184.jpg.16970f2c4feb87707506345bac47870d.jpg

 

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1 hour ago, Recidivist said:
9 hours ago, random said:

Hahahaahaaaaa.

More character attack.  Nice work keeping the focus on the man and not the ball!!!

And all coming from an anonymous poster on the interweb!  How good is that!

Random, if you have been here a while and don't know Potter's credentials (or NBG for that matter, or SS etc.), you aren't concentrating.  You are attacking people who are much closer to the team than you, and you aren't being particularly nice about it.  If you look at the calibre of the people you are disagreeing with, it should give you a hint that you are on the wrong side of the argument.

Please shut the fuck up.

Sorry for quoting him again Potter!

Random has no interest in engaging with posters here, or reading their background or comments.

 

He’s here for trolling, pure and simple.  It’s a waste of your time, which is why most of us have him on ignore. 

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43 minutes ago, Greenflash said:

To be clear: I am not defending his actions, I just like to see a fair playing field. 1- He was definitely too soon to comment. 3- I see he said they searched for 2 hours and gave up, although probably in his mind meant to be factual that can be read as very 'mean', especially by the crew, so NOT good! 

Like it or not, hot and nasty debates like this do often create good outcomes for the future, you have to rip the scab off a sore subject to heal properly. Safety will be at the forefront of the new boat's conception and if blue water knee deep in cockpit is not deemed a major safety issue then I will fully support the people with real world experience! Period.

Do you read? Can you read? Certainly one of those answers would be a yes! Like Mr Hancock you are zoning in on what didn't do for Fish. The Scallywag statement clearly and unequivocally stated he was knocked over the side by the mainsheet nothing to do with water 'knee deep in the cockpit' and by the way, open transom designs such as this do not retain knee deep water, it flushes out the back.

And do you really think safety was not "at the forefront" with these current boats?.

What many people appear to miss is that you start to enclose a cockpit you make that transition to 'being in the cockpit' to 'being on deck' trickier and trickier. Not a problem on an IMOCA as they are hardly ever in front of the mast. Have you ever tried to climb over a large doghouse in gnarly weather? It's not fun, but that's another issue.

And by the way, picking scabs often leaves scars!  

SS

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10 hours ago, Potter said:

1. He died not speak to a single person on the team,  the organisation,  the MRCC, the safety equipment suppliers or the ANYONE involved before casting blame... But he claims to be a journalist...

Journalists can be journalists regardless of who they do or do not speak to.  Or are real journalists only those you pay to do it?

2. The water over the deck was not a factor, according to the team. Read the incident report that Hancocks disgraceful report forced them to outline earlier than planned.

I bet there was a lot of water over the front half of the boat in the crash gybe that alledgedly caused the accident.  Wet boats do that.

3. His snide comments about the team giving up searching early without having all the facts was completely out of order, and incorrect. 

He had enough facts, then he expressed his opinion.  So sad you don not like people with differing opinions to yours.

4. How do you know nothing is being done for the future edition? Have you seem a design since VOR binned the super 60? Or,  like Hancock,  have you got your facts wrong. 

????  WTF?

You are right that he thinks he is fighting against wrongs that HE  perceives, but he is doing it based on  untruths that he has phrased to seem like truth.  It is the very lowest form of clickbait journalism that is really just professional trolling, and has unfortunately led to his article being published on 3 or 4 Sailing websites who have taken his old experience to mean he is worth listening to.

WTF do you think you are doing here!  At least he put his name to it.

 

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14 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

And do you really think safety was not "at the forefront" with these current boats?.

Safety is not at the fore-font.  How the fuck could you possibly say it was?  Are you completely fucking bonkers?  How many people have to be bashed about?  The women seem to be coping it hard getting flung about the cockpits with green and white water.  It's all there on the reports FFS!  We have video evidence of crew on scally covered in whitewater with no safety equipment on them.  Nothing.

Scally has had a MOB before this one and that person had no buoyancy gear on, nothing but a black rashy to hide him.  They have plenty of images showing crew not wearing safety equipment.  Now we have this.  With a claim that he was unconscious when he went over ... seriously??  That's complete conjecture and supposition!!!  Where are the facts here?

Cut the white-washing, man the fuck up and see it for what it is.  Every disaster has a series of warning signs and they are all visible now.

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1 hour ago, mad said:

Random has no interest in engaging with posters here, or reading their background or comments.

 

He’s here for trolling, pure and simple.  It’s a waste of your time, which is why most of us have him on ignore. 

Random = Gutless Coward

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Like all trolls Randumb is just seeking attention and only after an argument to disguise his scant sailing knowledge and to stimulate his paltry existance. Just put the pathetic cunt on ignore.

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6 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Like all trolls Randumb is just seeking attention and only after an argument to disguise his scant sailing knowledge and to stimulate his paltry existance. Just put the pathetic cunt on ignore.

Hahahahahaaaaa  like you did you lying cunt?

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Check out the safety gear in use in this clip.  Even after the accident, even though they were going fast, no attempt was made to kit up the crew.

 

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There are a significant few, thankfully a small minority, of posters here who align themselves or at least partially align themselves with BH.

I think we on the other side of this particular fence have to recognise that people with such views  as Brian Hancock, and the ability to disseminate them, do unfortunately exist. It is difficult, and not productive, to ignore someone who can get such a piece as the one he wrote published and spread within the sailing media. The opinions of people like him do need do to be challenged and defeated.

There are two radically different types of people in this world. Those who want to be free, have fun, take calculated risks and bear responsibility on their own shoulders, and a vocal minority who want to inhibit other peoples freedom and abolish fun and choice and responsibility.

We are never going to convince BH and this dull minority that his views and those of his disciples are abhorrent and that they preach safety when what they are really trying to do is impose their unwanted and misguided minority views on others.

BH and his followers who consider these boats and this race to be too dangerous have easy answers for themselves; not to enter the race and not to go ocean sailing on one. Equally if they are truly interested in ocean racing and are so sure of their own self-righteous views they could get together, design a boat which they personally consider safe, and set up a race of their own organising in waters they also consider safe, and see how much of a success they can make of it.

What is abhorrent about those like BH is the belligerent attitude and that without any justification and apparently almost no knowledge of facts, they rush to verbally attack others who have a different view on life and have done them no harm. These people need to be defeated but they cannot be argued with because they really do not share our values. We should simply make it clear that we simply reject their views and opinions and we despise them personally as human beings for what they are trying to do. That is something which they might be able to understand.

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14 hours ago, overlay said:

SHAME ON YOU.

What a spineless POS this one is. Minutes after I downvote this post I get down-votes on some random postings of mine from weeks ago from him. This isn't a game of tit-for-tat. The downvote was more than deserved. Welcome to my ignore list.

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