southerncross

VOR Leg 8 Itajaí to Newport

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Kedging in UK yacht racing speak is anchoring with a light anchor and not a lot of chain to avoid losing ground because of tide..... you can’t do an RORC offshore season without having kedged somewhere sometime in the season. Even some of the RORC starts happen with most/all yachts kedged to stop drifting over early with no way back  best start is not the one who is necessarily closest to the line, but the one who can time his anchor retrieval and drift down to the line best....Lots of kedging goes on even on RTI races and whilst I have never kedged on a Fastnet, we have come close, thinking about it,  several times, but usually it is too deep.

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I quit watching and ran in front of a truck, hoping to be reincarnated as a Mapfe fan. It didn't work. Still a fucked up dong fan (really fucked up at the moment). Hundreds of posts have passed by. Did I miss anything?

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8 hours ago, Marty6 said:

I don't know if DF caught some plastic but they had good speed till the end of the exclusion zone and even to that 1st mark i would say. Also other boats had problems, especially Mapfre with their keel control. And we have seen how much they use that keel for trimming and image the pain to have those controls not on the helm but below deck.

I still say this is the most fan-inflated issue of the leg. In the heavy air they’d just max the cant and leave it. In the light air, you want crew down low. One of those crew is perfectly capable of being the keel driver. The helm merely has to shout instead of pushing a button. 

Regardless, well done Mapfre. 

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11 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

Kedging in UK yacht racing speak is anchoring with a light anchor and not a lot of chain to avoid losing ground because of tide..

The term "kedge" is misused a lot. Kedging is actually using a anchor to move the boat which isn't obviously allowed.

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10 minutes ago, Monkey said:

One of those crew is perfectly capable of being the keel driver.

Vila was doing it once they got to the lighter stuff, albeit he might have preferred to be up top with a Tablet.

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17 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

The term "kedge" is misused a lot. Kedging is actually using a anchor to move the boat which isn't obviously allowed.

I know...... and which is why  I tried to put it in context.... if you were in the bar after a race and said “we kedged” your competitors/drinking chums would not protest you for the illegal use of an anchor.... Even in Admiral’s Cup days....

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52 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Hope not, that's DSQ even back then? Think you mean anchor? :-)

Mea culpa. 

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29 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

The term "kedge" is misused a lot. Kedging is actually using a anchor to move the boat which isn't obviously allowed.

Some things get lost in translation. Especially when translated in English. 

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6 hours ago, southerncross said:

Wondering if any of this will change if/when IMOCA gets involved as the French have a different way to start and finish an offshore race.

Maybe it's because the French races are for solo sailors on boats designed for reaching and running conditions. Having to do a few dozen tacks at the start and especially at the end of a race could become dangerous.

I did a pursuit race on an open bay with only my competitors to worry about and it was incredibly tiresome. I'd hate to be arriving in a narrow or busy port and have to do a few dozen tacks on an IMOCA fighting light winds, tide and sleep depravation. 

What's next, everyone here will be demanding "gates" at the entry and exit of the doldrums and the time transiting is not counted and they can motor?

 

Looking at the tracker, the yellow boat lost the lead 73nm out whilst they had double digit speeds and did not regain the lead until 7.4nm out. So if the "offshore finish line" was between 7.4nm & 73nm out then Dongfeng would be the winner.

Stop sulking everyone.... If you don't want to lose in a light winds lottery, then you need to sail faster and have a bigger lead. Shit happens, live with it.

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Slight thread drift: on Tuesdays with TFE today, TFE identified Sir Keith Mills, late of BAR, as a party in discussions to purchase the VOR, and also ASO, which owns the TDF de Broix.  He then asked himself if Dongfeng was a car company. 

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1 hour ago, hoppy said:

Maybe it's because the French races are for solo sailors on boats designed for reaching and running conditions. Having to do a few dozen tacks at the start and especially at the end of a race could become dangerous.

I did a pursuit race on an open bay with only my competitors to worry about and it was incredibly tiresome. I'd hate to be arriving in a narrow or busy port and have to do a few dozen tacks on an IMOCA fighting light winds, tide and sleep depravation. 

What's next, everyone here will be demanding "gates" at the entry and exit of the doldrums and the time transiting is not counted and they can motor?

 

Looking at the tracker, the yellow boat lost the lead 73nm out whilst they had double digit speeds and did not regain the lead until 7.4nm out. So if the "offshore finish line" was between 7.4nm & 73nm out then Dongfeng would be the winner.

Stop sulking everyone.... If you don't want to lose in a light winds lottery, then you need to sail faster and have a bigger lead. Shit happens, live with it.

French Federation de Voile actually exists to be the guiding hand to prevent necessary risks. Race result impacting conditions aside - there's a strange unsupported assumption that close to shore finish line benefits the viewership/sponsorship in the VOR of this cycle.

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20 minutes ago, despacio avenue said:

Slight thread drift: on Tuesdays with TFE today, TFE identified Sir Keith Mills, late of BAR, as a party in discussions to purchase the VOR, and also ASO, which owns the TDF de Broix.  He then asked himself if Dongfeng was a car company. 

He would be the first telephone call if not the party that initiated an IMOCA/VOR link. He bought the IMOCA 60 marketing rights about 5 years ago with the intention of globalising it as it had hit market saturation in France. Not sure how that has worked out. He is also Alex Thompson's great mate and benefactor.

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8 minutes ago, Miffy said:

French Federation de Voile actually exists to be the guiding hand to prevent necessary risks. Race result impacting conditions aside - there's a strange unsupported assumption that close to shore finish line benefits the viewership/sponsorship in the VOR of this cycle.

Sure, there would be zero benefit for the sponsors have a land based function centre for entertaining clients that has a view of the finish line and is close to the dock. There would also be zero benefit for the locals to be able to go to the waterfront and watch the boats come in under sail to the finish rather than watch them motoring. This would in no way inspire the locals to come to the race village and spend their cash...

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3 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

He would be the first telephone call if not the party that initiated an IMOCA/VOR link. He bought the IMOCA 60 marketing rights about 5 years ago with the intention of globalising it as it had hit market saturation in France. Not sure how that has worked out. He is also Alex Thompson's great mate and benefactor.

That's interesting Jack. Alex T was quick to jump out front in support of the merger.

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2 minutes ago, southerncross said:

That's interesting Jack. Alex T was quick to jump out front in support of the merger.

Joining the dots is a tried and tested technique. My ex-wives were very good at it.

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12 minutes ago, hoppy said:

Sure, there would be zero benefit for the sponsors have a land based function centre for entertaining clients that has a view of the finish line and is close to the dock. There would also be zero benefit for the locals to be able to go to the waterfront and watch the boats come in under sail to the finish rather than watch them motoring. This would in no way inspire the locals to come to the race village and spend their cash...

That reminds me I need to book my Les Sables canal viewing spot for the 2020 VG before they are all gone to watch them motor in and out to a start/finish line nobody can see.

 

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With Mapfre able to win this leg despite all their problems it says leaps and bounds about the way teams have to deal with their issues. Mapfre have also proved they are able to win in any boat on boat scenario. Dongfeng tried match racing them and they didn't work. Brunel couldn't hold them off and perhaps some luck was involved but you wonder now if both Brunel and Dongfeng will change their tactics slightly with around 30% of the points to be won? Great to see Brunel turn things around they were unlucky but will be a mighty task beating Mapfre now because they don't have any shockers.!

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2 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

Brunel couldn't hold them off and perhaps some luck was involved but you wonder now if both Brunel and Dongfeng will change their tactics

They first need to go to the library surely?

images.png

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29 minutes ago, hoppy said:

Sure, there would be zero benefit for the sponsors have a land based function centre for entertaining clients that has a view of the finish line and is close to the dock. There would also be zero benefit for the locals to be able to go to the waterfront and watch the boats come in under sail to the finish rather than watch them motoring. This would in no way inspire the locals to come to the race village and spend their cash...

There's ways to give ppl a show. Inport races. Dock out and welcome events. You can even motorsail in. Ppl won't know the difference. 

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46 minutes ago, southerncross said:

That's interesting Jack. Alex T was quick to jump out front in support of the merger.

Also forgot to add Mills is hard nosed and no idealistic dreamer....he bailed out of sponsoring BAR when it became clear to him they couldn't beat Oracle and that was when NZ were an unknown.

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

They first need to go to the library surely?

images.png

To quote Kyle Langford   "Clinching defeat from the jaws of victory..!" 

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2 hours ago, Miffy said:

There's ways to give ppl a show. Inport races. Dock out and welcome events. You can even motorsail in. Ppl won't know the difference. 

Why cut the race short? Aren't the crews tough enough to handle disappointment?

Should they change the rules for the Le Mans 24 so that the team that was leading the race for much of the 24hrs is not disappointed if they get a puncture in the dying minutes of the race and get passed?

Shit happens, live with it....

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27 minutes ago, hoppy said:

Why cut the race short? Aren't the crews tough enough to handle disappointment?

Should they change the rules for the Le Mans 24 so that the team that was leading the race for much of the 24hrs is not disappointed if they get a puncture in the dying minutes of the race and get passed?

Shit happens, live with it....

 

I said above. Results aside. There are practical reasons why finish line formal results with ceremonial/coordinated dock in events can be beneficial. Whether for safety, logistics, avoiding midnight arrivals where there's basically only family and friends. 

End the racing outside of an area where local traffic can impact the racing. Meet the boats with a nice champagne and support crew. Bring it in with sails up if possible. Motorsail. Arrange for arrival in order if close and have a festive party. 

Flip the argument around. Why don't races put the finish line as the first boat to secure lines? Shit happens. If you ding the boat you lose because it is part of boat handling skills. 

 

I can't speak for others. But boat tours and human interaction is more meaningful for me than late night arrivals where I get as much footage on a phone as anyone standing at the dock because the boats are floating by an old fish factory in Lisbon. 

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2 minutes ago, Miffy said:

Flip the argument around. Why don't races put the finish line as the first boat to secure lines? 

Name one race that ends that way now...

Might as well make the winner, the boat who's captain drunk themselves unconscious under the table first...

 

Or have the finish close to shore where there are plenty of vantage points for the public and when there is a close finish at a reasonable hour, milk it for all the marketing it's worth. Get the local media and not just sailing media down to the waterfront to film the finish and if it's a drifter, there's more potential for longer coverage..

 

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reductio ad absurdum? Point I sought to illustrate is the start and finish are fundamentally up to ppl to decide. 

There's pros and cons to everything. A near port finish in Auckland is beautiful. A narrow channel in the dark of night in Melbourne was not. 

What I struggle with is somehow there's a sense amongst some that 2017-2018's abberation = "standard default"

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Like Newport,the finish in Melbourne could just as easily have been during the day and with plenty of breeze.   Luck of the draw.

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5 hours ago, Monkey said:

I still say this is the most fan-inflated issue of the leg. In the heavy air they’d just max the cant and leave it. In the light air, you want crew down low. One of those crew is perfectly capable of being the keel driver. The helm merely has to shout instead of pushing a button. 

Regardless, well done Mapfre. 

Partially agree. For the heavy stuff you are certainly right. But for the medium and light stuff i'm not so sure. Having watched and listened to those raw videos you hear the keel hydraulics not only when they do a tack or gybe to move the keel from one side to the other. Especially in light winds i can see benefits from doing frequent adjustments: Move it completely to one side to get max cant to help the sail staying there and not flapping around so much. As soon as you gain some speed move it more to center for less cant and more sail exposure. And if you further gain speed move it back to the side again to counter the pressure.

But i might be wrong there and VOR organization just put an emphasis on the topic for this leg.

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1 minute ago, DtM said:

Like Newport,the finish in Melbourne could just as easily have been during the day and with plenty of breeze.   Luck of the draw.

Exactly.

A good south westerly on the bay would have made a stunning finish with boats passing spectators and crossing the line at 20+ knots.

If it was daylight and not Christmas eve, I would have either being out on the water or at least on the shore to watch them.

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If Richo had not fucked up and done his 360's, negating the need for Cooney to protest, would posters be crying for the moving of the S2H finish line?  Maybe the start should be moved outside the heads, after all it's an ocean and not a harbour race....

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1 hour ago, DtM said:

Like Newport,the finish in Melbourne could just as easily have been during the day and with plenty of breeze.   Luck of the draw.

 

1 hour ago, hoppy said:

Exactly.

A good south westerly on the bay would have made a stunning finish with boats passing spectators and crossing the line at 20+ knots.

If it was daylight and not Christmas eve, I would have either being out on the water or at least on the shore to watch them.

Comparing a tidal bay (the Rip excluded) larger than some European countries to a tidal creek like Newport and Lisbon is nonsense.

Both give yourself an uppercut.

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So, those proposing that the leg should not finish inshore, due to the tightness of the course and possibility of light winds and strong tides; where do you think the next leg should be finished? South of Ireland? 

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21 minutes ago, Potter said:

So, those proposing that the leg should not finish inshore, due to the tightness of the course and possibility of light winds and strong tides; where do you think the next leg should be finished? South of Ireland? 

Potter I don't even think in this looney place anyone with half a brain has suggested a offshore finish. Many like me suggesting a Newport finish around either the first or second mark just off the bricks and before hitting the worst of the tidal stream abound I suggest.

There is no upside for anyone taking the finish a bees dick upstream of that, but with huge downside for competitors (ask Dee, Charles and Bouwe) except maybe the Host City, who quite frankly couldn't give a fuck about on course outcomes.

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24 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Comparing a tidal bay (the Rip excluded) larger than some European countries to a tidal creek like Newport and Lisbon is nonsense.

Both give yourself an uppercut.

A close race and a bad arrival time at the rip could cause a handy lead become a neck and neck battle up the bay and a few posters crying "offshore finish"

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29 minutes ago, hoppy said:

A close race and a bad arrival time at the rip could cause a handy lead become a neck and neck battle up the bay and a few posters crying "offshore finish"

Hoppy couple of questions you should answer.

1. Name one poster with half a brain who suggested Leg 3 should finish outside the Bay? In fact name one prosecuting a true offshore finish in Newport?

2. There is a few mile between the first/second mark at Newport (which are hardly offshore) and the Finish. You are from Melbourne I think so you are probably able to quickly rattle off your head the distance between the Rip and the Finish via the Eastern Channel. Compare those distances and report back with your thoughts?

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Some people think this is about boat racing, it's not.  It's about traveling bill-boards.

Once you accept that, the inshore finishes make sense.  There is a 50% chance that they will arrive near the harbour in daylight, maximising exposure.

See how easy this is to decode?

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40 minutes ago, Potter said:

So, those proposing that the leg should not finish inshore, due to the tightness of the course and possibility of light winds and strong tides; where do you think the next leg should be finished? South of Ireland? 

They should stop all racing the minute it gets below 2 knots of wind speed, regardless of position on the course. :ph34r::P

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If Newport and it's tidal creek and arguably a bit of a fuck up on the RO's selection of the Finish Line by a few mile or so creating such an imbalance in Leg 8 scores and consequently an out pouring of opinion here.. well tide level differentials therefore big current volocities in Cardiff Bay for Leg 9 Finish Line and on a 2x points leg, could potentially well and truly eclipse that Newport Finish Line debate in the event of a close finish.

 

images (11).jpeg

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I thought it was exciting. I thought it was sailboat racing. This because I have been passed by 20 boats when we lingered too far from land in the post fog land breeze cycle. It was excruciating but we talk about it all the time....we don't think it was unfair we think we were wrong. Luck is a large part of sailboat racing in the short run. Levarage is often a rabbits foot. In the long run though luck evens out and Mapfre should win anyway and probably will (luck aside). They just seem more determined and that's hard to root against or beat.

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3 hours ago, hoppy said:

If Richo had not fucked up and done his 360's, negating the need for Cooney to protest, would posters be crying for the moving of the S2H finish line?  Maybe the start should be moved outside the heads, after all it's an ocean and not a harbour race....

Start and Finish line selection and outcomes on so many fronts is like comparing kissing your sister to the real thing.

Hoppy no wonder you were cut from the school debating team. 

PS. Is your sister single?

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6 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Also forgot to add Mills is hard nosed and no idealistic dreamer....he bailed out of sponsoring BAR when it became clear to him they couldn't beat Oracle and that was when NZ were an unknown.

So why does he continue to support a perennial at-best bridesmaid in AT?   

 

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5 minutes ago, vikram said:

In the long run though luck evens out and Mapfre should win anyway and probably will (luck aside). They just seem more determined and that's hard to root against or beat.

Their determination coming back from the dead to get into the lucky zone and then #1  I can't recall an equivalent?

With Sophie back ...I'm not sure the Chinese make lucky gold cats large enough?

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9 hours ago, Monkey said:

I still say this is the most fan-inflated issue of the leg. In the heavy air they’d just max the cant and leave it. In the light air, you want crew down low. One of those crew is perfectly capable of being the keel driver. The helm merely has to shout instead of pushing a button. 

Regardless, well done Mapfre. 

Fully agree, this is just a full electrical shutdown, all batteries dead,  keel stopped working as a result, need to do a bypass to handle it manually. Nothing to be so worried about.

On the other hand Dongfeng got a plastic on the keel while drifting away from the finish line. That should be analysed by RC and give a time reduction. Aren't we trying to stop the tide of plastic? Show it!!

Giving a second thougth, shouldn't be Mapfre penalized for breaking the One Design rule by applying changes to the keel system?

:rolleyes:

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2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Hoppy couple of questions you should answer.

1. Name one poster with half a brain who suggested Leg 3 should finish outside the Bay? In fact name one prosecuting a true offshore finish in Newport?

2. There is a few mile between the first/second mark at Newport (which are hardly offshore) and the Finish. You are from Melbourne I think so you are probably able to quickly rattle off your head the distance between the Rip and the Finish via the Eastern Channel. Compare those distances and report back with your thoughts?

Offshore or at a mark outside of Newport, same difference.

A stadium finish is what's needed, especially when the finish is close.

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38 minutes ago, GBH said:

So why does he continue to support a perennial at-best bridesmaid in AT?   

To say that you are clearly a sideline commentator with no idea at all of efforts being made by Anglo's to take the French on in SH sailing from Mini's up to help the sport of sailing prosper all round on a global scale.

Through efforts by people like Mills supporting Alex for a decade now, albeit at the top end, the fruits of that help grow SH sailing and which are now bearing fruit. The kids loving hero's formula is one of the most powerful things going. 

Look at the growing Anglo numbers now in every SH class that used to be the sole domain of the French, be it Minis, Fig, Class 40 etc .. expansion is now happening.

Fuck the Fig 3 is now earmarked as a future Olympic Class in a overnight race format. That progression in offshore sailing and in such a short time  is unheard of.

Think before you rebut, though your hidden question was a good one.

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3 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Hoppy couple of questions you should answer.

1. Name one poster with half a brain who suggested Leg 3 should finish outside the Bay? In fact name one prosecuting a true offshore finish in Newport?

2. There is a few mile between the first/second mark at Newport (which are hardly offshore) and the Finish. You are from Melbourne I think so you are probably able to quickly rattle off your head the distance between the Rip and the Finish via the Eastern Channel. Compare those distances and report back with your thoughts?

 

57 minutes ago, hoppy said:

Offshore or at a mark outside of Newport, same difference

I thought so ..a dick with no head refusing to/incapable of answering a specific question or any idea of basic maths/navigation.

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51 minutes ago, GBH said:

So why does he continue to support a perennial at-best bridesmaid in AT?   

 

they go back a long way. keith mills was one of AT's crew members when he won the clipper race.

 

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well it's a pity he doesn't directly support some of the smart and up and comings instead of someone that has almost certainly reached the limit of his capabilities.   

It's great that there are others out there and taking on the Frogs at their own games, but there are some much smarter and younger cookies in the likes of Roberts or Sharp that would better reap the rewards given the sort of extended funding that AT has enjoyed.

Its been no secret even from when Mills first took over IMOCA that he had the Volvo in his sights and then Turner went in there to bat for the amalgamation ( and elimination of the perceived competition ) and on it goes.   AT is now his mouthpiece to keep pushing that scenario.

Good thing or not?   I happen to think not.  However I also think that maybe the Whitbread/Volvo model has had its day and that the Pay for Adventure races have really taken on the mantle of what it originally was.     Sad to see, and btw this is no armchair critic speaking.

 

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24 minutes ago, GBH said:

well it's a pity he doesn't directly support some of the smart and up and comings ...

He doesn't?? Mate catch up..your drowning.

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

I thought so ..a dick with no head refusing to/incapable of answering a specific question or any idea of basic maths/navigation.

There is quite frankly no point answering your question... Without ever having being there and only using Google earth as my reference, but it looks like VOR put the finish line in the correct location for maximising exposure and it is close to the harbour. No need to do any maths or navigation, just need to take your head your head out of your own ass. 

I hate to say it, but for once I have to agree with Random

3 hours ago, random said:

Some people think this is about boat racing, it's not.  It's about traveling bill-boards.

Once you accept that, the inshore finishes make sense.  There is a 50% chance that they will arrive near the harbour in daylight, maximising exposure.

See how easy this is to decode?

OMG I quoted him, chuck another hissy fit...

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24 minutes ago, hoppy said:

There is quite frankly no point answering your question..Without ever having being there..

Newport distance outer marks to Finish is a couple of mile as I have already told you so no need for you to have been there and the distance across Port Phillip (via the SI's) in you own backyard you continue to keep a secret? Wonder why?

Back up your own rebuttal of my post using Port Phillip..it seems not.

Love your Randumb like evasion technique, though that approach will come with fleas.

 

 

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Sailing goes from port to port. Unless there are security problems, there is no reason not to place the start and finish lines close to the ports. Sailing in tidal waters and in calms is part of the necessary skills as a sailor. 

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38 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Newport distance outer marks to Finish is a couple of mile as I have already told you so no need for you to have been there and the distance across Port Phillip (via the SI's) in you own backyard you continue to keep a secret? Wonder why?

Back up your own rebuttal of my post using Port Phillip..it seems not.

Love your Randumb like evasion technique, though that approach will come with fleas.

So what if the rip is 30 or 40 nm from the finish. You are trying to divert attention from your crybaby bitching... 

3 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

If Newport and it's tidal creek and arguably a bit of a fuck up on the RO's selection of the Finish Line by a few mile or so creating such an imbalance in Leg 8 scores and consequently an out pouring of opinion here.. well tide level differentials therefore big current volocities in Cardiff Bay for Leg 9 Finish Line and on a 2x points leg, could potentially well and truly eclipse that Newport Finish Line debate in the event of a close finish.

If they made the finish line 7.5nm further out, then Dongfeng would have been the winner.

The only debate about the finish line is from cry babies who are throwing hissy fits because their favourite got pipped at the post.

Grow up

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41 minutes ago, hoppy said:

The only debate about the finish line is from cry babies who are throwing hissy fits because their favourite got pipped at the post.

Still Random's butt buddy, Hoppy?  Takes two to Tango.  My boat won BTW.  So no hissy fit here.

Your point about the IMOCA starts taken.  The Douarnenez-Lisbon race is finishing at Cascais so they won't have to sail up river.  Mini's do fine upwind.

I wouldn't change any traditional offshore race.  Light/no air finishes par for the course.  

My only real argument is with the VOR in particular.  If the race ended with the Leg, then port to port it should be.

But finishing a 6000 mile race every 6 or so weeks in the traditional way you might finish a 600 mile race done once a year (Hobart, Fastnet) seems redundant when the entire fleet returns after the Leg to put on an Inport and ProAm race for the fans to take part in.  That's if, if, this is all about fan participation.

Handcock's piece through me for a loop.  So I'll grant I may be way off on this.  I'm typically a traditionalist bemoaning ice gates and random exclusion zones and any discussion of deck housing.  

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5 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

If Newport and it's tidal creek and arguably a bit of a fuck up on the RO's selection of the Finish Line by a few mile or so creating such an imbalance in Leg 8 scores and consequently an out pouring of opinion here.. well tide level differentials therefore big current volocities in Cardiff Bay for Leg 9 Finish Line and on a 2x points leg, could potentially well and truly eclipse that Newport Finish Line debate in the event of a close finish.

 

images (11).jpeg

The wailing and gnashing of teeth will be deafening from some. 

Especially if the weather is the same as last weekend, they could all get spat straight back out of the channel. 

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1 hour ago, hoppy said:

So what if the rip is 30 or 40 nm from the finish. You are trying to divert attention from your crybaby bitching... 

If they made the finish line 7.5nm further out, then Dongfeng would have been the winner.

The only debate about the finish line is from cry babies who are throwing hissy fits because their favourite got pipped at the post.

Grow up

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You’re correct, it’s a fanboy issue. The rest of the sailing world accepts its all part of the sport of offshore sailing. 

Those that want manicured courses etc would probably be happier with the AC and match racing events. 

As you say, some need to grow up. 

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5 minutes ago, mad said:

You’re correct, it’s a fanboy issue. The rest of the sailing world accepts its all part of the sport of offshore sailing. 

Those that want manicured courses etc would probably be happier with the AC and match racing events. 

As you say, some need to grow up. 

Maybe Jack should consider joining Random by a pond for his sail race spectating.

I can understand being disappointed for the crew of Brunel and they perhaps deserve empathy, but crying foul at the VOR RO for the finish line location is just stupid.

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14 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

The term "kedge" is misused a lot. Kedging is actually using a anchor to move the boat which isn't obviously allowed.

Pretty accurate Jack except insert the work "was" for "is". According to Oxford Companion to Ships and the Sea "formerly carried on board to warp a ship etc etc" goes on to say "It is frequently used to hold a yacht against an adverse tide wen there is insufficient wind to make headway against it and also fop anchoring a yacht in water too deep for the cable of the main anchor. Fascinating book by the way, my copy is  40 years old. Strangely the paperback version published in 2006 makes no mention of the more modern usage of the term.

SS

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Volvo Ocean Race. Unfair, really?

 Posted on 09 May 2018 at 09h39 

PHILIPPE ELIÈS

Charles Caudrelier and the crew of Dongfeng may have regrets ...

Tuesday, the arrival of the eighth stage in Newport was rich in twists with, in the end, the incredible victory of the Mapfre Spaniards, authors of the perfect heist. Leading a good part of the race, the Dutch Team Brunel and the French-Chinese crew of Dongfeng have lost everything in the last few miles because of a wind almost zero, a thick fog and a current contrary. So, this arrival, qualified by some observers of "lottery", is it unfair, sportingly speaking? Should he keep the finish line in front of Newport Harbor? Elements of answers. 

> Did Mapfre manage the perfect holdup?
Yes. Relegated to sixth position more than 60 miles at a given time, the Spanish, not very inspired for 14 days, did not lead wide. Team Brunel had superbly opted and Dongfeng, who had a nice shot, was ahead in second place, so he was very good at consolidating his position as leader in the overall standings. Yet, with perseverance and also (we must admit) with a lot of luck, the crew of Xabi Fernandez managed to return to the forefront on the last day. To double first Dongfeng (it becomes a habit at the end of the race!), Then to Brunel on the pole. Like it or not, this victory is that of a team that never gave up, who believed to the end. After a seventh nightmarish stage, 

> Can Dongfeng blame himself?

Yes. Of course, when you spend more than 14 days in front of you and get caught in the last few miles, you think there is something that has not worked. Are these pieces of plastic stuck in the keel? "We have not managed to remove them, we should have backed down because everyone was faster than us," admits Charles Caudrelier. Is it the choice to break the mark on Mapfre that came back strong behind? Hard to say as conditions were rotten on area. But it's a fact, it's been three times that Dongfeng is being picked up by Mapfre as it approaches the finish line. Dongfeng, who has not signed the slightest stage victory, would he be afraid to conclude? "It's not good for trust," 
 

> Did he have to move the finish line?
This is THE question that agitated the social networks Tuesday ... in France. Not at all in Spain. So, let's forget that aboard the Chinese VO65, there is a large majority of French and Bretons and we try to look objectively at the thing. To our knowledge, during the briefing in Itajaï, no skipper asked that the finish line be moved. But all knew that the bottom of Newport Bay is famous for its very capricious winds, often very weak in the morning, its thick fog and its strong current. If the committee had positioned it to the north, it would have favored Brunel and Dongfeng while in the south, Turn the Tide on Plastic was gaining the upper hand ... So, it was in Itajaï that the request had to be made, not a few miles from the finish and even less on arrival in Newport.  

> Was a course reduction possible?
Yes, of course, but it is up to the race committee to decide. If he had judged the arrival not in front of the port of Newport but outside, it would have clearly favored the first two, in this case Team Brunel and Donfeng. And do not forget that the Volvo Ocean Race has sold to the city of Newport "an arrival in front of the port", where the village of the race is located. Sailing has suffered for too long from departures and arrivals far, too far from the land and the public, to allow to go back in the same way. This final may seem unfair to Brunel and Dongfeng but, on closer inspection, it is this kind of race finish crazy after 5. 

> What is the rule in other races?
There is no rule that the finish line must be moved in the absence of wind and / or significant adverse current. It is, we repeat, at the discretion of the race committee. Only departures and starting lines can be postponed or staggered for lack of wind. Did we see a Vendée Globe finish line or the Route du Rhum being moved because of the heat and the current? Of course not and that will probably never happen. Since there are countless times the sailors of the Solitaire du Figaro had to anchor, sometimes a few hundred meters from the finish line, Eole having decided to play the girls of the air. The absence of wind is part of the offshore race.

© Le Télégramme http://www.letelegramme.fr/voile/volvo-ocean-race-injuste-vraiment-09-05-2018-11953588.php#sszcd1spBlipOwmZ.99

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5 hours ago, mario147 said:

On the other hand Dongfeng got a plastic on the keel while drifting away from the finish line. That should be analysed by RC and give a time reduction. Aren't we trying to stop the tide of plastic? Show it!!

The supposed plastic on DF is the bigger distraction. Surprised nobody asked them on what they were really stuck when the crew member went for a dive. That surely was no plastic because as long as they had it they were at least standing still and as soon as it got removed they went backwards out the channel. So it even helped them to stay in that position ;)

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Geez, everyone should just get over it.  Pick a spot where your favorite team was winning, that's where the race should have ended.  Had the timing been different and the boats came in at noon rather than 6:00 am, they would have screamed in with a following current and 15 knots with full sail and the world would applaud a great finishing location.  Very few places have strong breeze in the middle of the night/early morning (think of sailing into SF in the middle of the night and an ebb), no matter where they were they would have had light air.  Crap, being 6 hours ahead of when they arrived they would have been with a following current and no wind but no one would have said anything because it would have been easier.  And this race isn't supposed to be easy.  What about when Brunel lost it's big lead when it sailed into the hole near the gulf stream: should the race have been called there?  What a bunch of whiners.  Everyone had the same fucking conditions to deal with, some dealt with it better than others.  Can anyone on Brunel say that if they'd done what Mapfre did that it was unfair?  

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2 hours ago, hoppy said:

So what if the rip is 30 or 40 nm from the finish. You are trying to divert attention from your crybaby bitching... 

If they made the finish line 7.5nm further out, then Dongfeng would have been the winner.

The only debate about the finish line is from cry babies who are throwing hissy fits because their favourite got pipped at the post.

Grow up

200.gif

Jack a Dongfeng fan? Nah Hoppy, you got that one wrong

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21 minutes ago, southerncross said:

Volvo Ocean Race. Unfair, really?

 Posted on 09 May 2018 at 09h39 

PHILIPPE ELIÈS

Charles Caudrelier and the crew of Dongfeng may have regrets ...

Tuesday, the arrival of the eighth stage in Newport was rich in twists with, in the end, the incredible victory of the Mapfre Spaniards, authors of the perfect heist. Leading a good part of the race, the Dutch Team Brunel and the French-Chinese crew of Dongfeng have lost everything in the last few miles because of a wind almost zero, a thick fog and a current contrary. So, this arrival, qualified by some observers of "lottery", is it unfair, sportingly speaking? Should he keep the finish line in front of Newport Harbor? Elements of answers. 

> Did Mapfre manage the perfect holdup?
Yes. Relegated to sixth position more than 60 miles at a given time, the Spanish, not very inspired for 14 days, did not lead wide. Team Brunel had superbly opted and Dongfeng, who had a nice shot, was ahead in second place, so he was very good at consolidating his position as leader in the overall standings. Yet, with perseverance and also (we must admit) with a lot of luck, the crew of Xabi Fernandez managed to return to the forefront on the last day. To double first Dongfeng (it becomes a habit at the end of the race!), Then to Brunel on the pole. Like it or not, this victory is that of a team that never gave up, who believed to the end. After a seventh nightmarish stage, 

> Can Dongfeng blame himself?

Yes. Of course, when you spend more than 14 days in front of you and get caught in the last few miles, you think there is something that has not worked. Are these pieces of plastic stuck in the keel? "We have not managed to remove them, we should have backed down because everyone was faster than us," admits Charles Caudrelier. Is it the choice to break the mark on Mapfre that came back strong behind? Hard to say as conditions were rotten on area. But it's a fact, it's been three times that Dongfeng is being picked up by Mapfre as it approaches the finish line. Dongfeng, who has not signed the slightest stage victory, would he be afraid to conclude? "It's not good for trust," 
 

> Did he have to move the finish line?
This is THE question that agitated the social networks Tuesday ... in France. Not at all in Spain. So, let's forget that aboard the Chinese VO65, there is a large majority of French and Bretons and we try to look objectively at the thing. To our knowledge, during the briefing in Itajaï, no skipper asked that the finish line be moved. But all knew that the bottom of Newport Bay is famous for its very capricious winds, often very weak in the morning, its thick fog and its strong current. If the committee had positioned it to the north, it would have favored Brunel and Dongfeng while in the south, Turn the Tide on Plastic was gaining the upper hand ... So, it was in Itajaï that the request had to be made, not a few miles from the finish and even less on arrival in Newport.  

> Was a course reduction possible?
Yes, of course, but it is up to the race committee to decide. If he had judged the arrival not in front of the port of Newport but outside, it would have clearly favored the first two, in this case Team Brunel and Donfeng. And do not forget that the Volvo Ocean Race has sold to the city of Newport "an arrival in front of the port", where the village of the race is located. Sailing has suffered for too long from departures and arrivals far, too far from the land and the public, to allow to go back in the same way. This final may seem unfair to Brunel and Dongfeng but, on closer inspection, it is this kind of race finish crazy after 5. 

> What is the rule in other races?
There is no rule that the finish line must be moved in the absence of wind and / or significant adverse current. It is, we repeat, at the discretion of the race committee. Only departures and starting lines can be postponed or staggered for lack of wind. Did we see a Vendée Globe finish line or the Route du Rhum being moved because of the heat and the current? Of course not and that will probably never happen. Since there are countless times the sailors of the Solitaire du Figaro had to anchor, sometimes a few hundred meters from the finish line, Eole having decided to play the girls of the air. The absence of wind is part of the offshore race.

© Le Télégramme http://www.letelegramme.fr/voile/volvo-ocean-race-injuste-vraiment-09-05-2018-11953588.php#sszcd1spBlipOwmZ.99

Sorry to tell you that you are wrong. It HAS been raised before with the RO, even before the start of the race.

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5 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

Sorry to tell you that you are wrong. It HAS been raised before with the RO, even before the start of the race.

What do yo mean?  The arguments for the article is wrong or the position of changing the finish line? 

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I'm far from a DF fan. I root for MAPFRE over the other red boat and the result made me happy. But I've been pretty consistent in my observation that Lisbon arrival was a joke, Melbourne could have become a joke if the wind conditions & proximity of the fleet was closer. 

Using Melbourne as an example - the internet observers might have missed that the racing ENDED well before the boats were anywhere near the docks, because they needed to be pulled down by a floating barge to get to the dock. Spectators want to see the boats and people and wave. We can accomplish that - perhaps even better by having the arrival somewhere more predictable (less drift across the line), escort the boats to a staging position, get champagne - cleanup/change into respectable team gear, food and beverage - support crew, then sail/motorsail to the dock with a parade during ticket/daylight hours.

I hate that the crew have to step off the boat after so long - obviously wanting to get some food and drink, and be put in a position where they also have to satisfy sponsor obligations without being at their best. It'll be nice to have a "cool down" room before they're released to the circus. Also helps for media management.

People keep trying to apply rigid rules re inshore finish vs offshore finish - and my consistent point was, like real life sailing and not some stupid video game or nautical chart table sailing - you look at the environment and decide. It is always push pull between the desire of the marketing sponsor types, the skipper/team boss with $ pressure, sportswomen/sportsman desire to feel you won/lost. Offshore sailing is unique from OD Olympic sailing because we accept there's large amount of luck/unpredictable elements - managing weather, damage, risk, etc. I consistently view breakage as part of the game - some blame boatyard when their boat of choice has an issue, or sail loft if their boat is consistently slow.

And like I said before - there's no "default format" to the way the VOR is doing it this cycle. There's been plenty of suitable ports for dock-in ceremonies, where boats that have arrived have to tie off/anchor overnight until the tide is right. In other events, people also pay to be on welcoming/spectator fleet sponsored by boatyards - a Beneteau fleet sipping champagne 6 miles off the port adds another segmentation that is revenue generating.

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“Poor Dongfeng”?  I don’t think so!

"The closeness at the end in Auckland with lead swaps and the uncertainty of a Brunel win until the last few miles into Itajai is testament to how tough it is to grind out a win in this race.

The Newport finish however did prove to be a lottery, light winds coupled to an outgoing tide and river flow meant that, not only did Dongfeng suffer but Mapfre and Brunel spent an age getting up the river. A lead of 2.8 miles over Brunel and 8 over Mapfre evaporated faster than the Newport fog.

Ocean racing it was not and I know many people who switched off and literally went down the pub. Of course the dyed in the wool sailing fan was there to the end but that is not the metric that brings a smile to the sponsors’ faces, it is the ordinary sports fan who likes to see a bit action while being encouraged to drink out of their re-usable bottle or whatever.

That however is by the by and perhaps something that the Volvo Ocean Race needs to consider for future events that almost 6,000 miles and over 2 weeks of racing perhaps shouldn’t come down to a dozen or so miles drifting up (and down) on the ebb tide of an estuary.

Of course it cuts both ways. This time Dongfeng was a victim of that lottery." - SS

http://sailinganarchy.com/2018/05/09/not-so-poor/

Good write up SS especially after the crushing finish for DF.  Personally, I reckon they deserved that one but it is what it is.

This also goes to what Miffy said previously about balancing sponsorship obligations and the traditions of the race.

Anyway, appreciate the rational pro's and con's given.

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3 hours ago, mad said:

You’re correct, it’s a fanboy issue. The rest of the sailing world accepts its all part of the sport of offshore sailing. 

Those that want manicured courses etc would probably be happier with the AC and match racing events. 

As you say, some need to grow up. 

First off nice FP @shanghaisailor

Mad,  I am hardly a fanboy of any team in the VOR or the race itself.  Heck, I honestly don't even know who won the leg.  I just noted the radical shifts in position in the last few nm, glanced to see what happened and had to laugh sadly at the tracks and the light air lottery the finish turned into.  I really don't mean any disrespect to those who do enjoy and follow this race closely but to me the finish is just another reason why my interest in the VOR diminished greatly and my interest in the Vendee and similar is enhanced.  The VOR - to me and I get most here would likely disagree - has turned into a traveling trade show circus of billboards transiting from one portside convention center to another by way of by sail (and motor).  It prioritizes the commercial elements to the detriment of the sailing elements too much for me.  And in so doing IMHO its become a far diminished shadow of its former truly RTW southern ocean self because of far too many reasons of which this (finish construct/placement) is just another.

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Waaaay back when I was a kid, we'd have neighborhood pick-up baseball games. 

After each and every game, the losers tried to change the rules. 

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They should add a timing mark or two out in the ocean, based upon modeled finishing time for the first boat, to target an afternoon finish, or avoid an adverse tide if it's going to be a drifter.  No different than sending them around the harbor at the start or changing a mark during an in-port race.  That would provide better viewing for the finish and reduce the luck factor.  Just add this to the SIs:  When the lead boat reaches _______, the timing mark(s) position will be announced to the fleet by the RO.

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I got protested in a windsurfing race for 'kedging'!  It was one of the older HiHo races when they still included beating to windward. The days course was from Jost through Soper's Hole (West End) to a finish off of Nanny Cay. Big oscillating holes and shifts where you have to pinch past Great Thatch at the bottom of the Hole and the lead pack were not quite making around the coral strewn reef on the windward end. They would get almost around and the wind would die and before the next puff filled in the current would push you back. I watched the pros fail time and time to get around and some of them were 'pumping' the sail for all they were worth to 'paddle' around. Didn't really help to overstand as you still got pushed down into the pack. It was almost like you had to lay back and watch to windward for a puff and time it in hopes you could get around. I got almost around when a ferry boat wake caused me to fall in so I just jumped off the board with my legs tucked up to keep from cutting bare feet up on the sharp coral. I gingerly put both feet down in a spot mostly clear of coral and sea urchins and was surprised at how fast the foul current really was. I was about waist deep and my body an board started kicking up a obvious wake! The rest of the leader pack went streaming past me in what looked from my standpoint like they were in reverse and I decided to stay 'anchored' and watched for the next puff. Guys started yelling at me to get back on my board as I 'rushed' past them and I was soon in the lead for first! I had about a 50 yard lead over the pros when the next patch of wind gave me the opportunity to leap back on the board and uphaul and get around the hole into clear air and favorable current of the other side. I made the podium on that leg (a first for me in that pack!) and I couldn't believe when I saw my name on the protest board. My response was that I was standing in the same sandy spot on the reef the whole time (anchored?) and a couple of guys swore that I was walking forward (kedging?!) as evidenced by my wake... The real pros were good sports and backed up my story and even bought me drinks after (Johnny Walker of course!) 

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5 hours ago, hoppy said:

So what if the rip is 30 or 40 nm from the finish. You are trying to divert attention from your crybaby bitching... 

If they made the finish line 7.5nm further out, then Dongfeng would have been the winner.

The only debate about the finish line is from cry babies who are throwing hissy fits because their favourite got pipped at the post.

Grow up

200.gif

 

I'm a fanboy now bitching about my team (or any team) being pipped at the post???? WTF. 

 

 

And my team (Akzo) actually got gifted a place by the driftfest.

Hoppy you really aren't the brightest bulb on the porch are you. 

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25 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Hoppy you really aren't the brightest bulb on the porch are you.

Maybe time to change your own bulb for an LED (multi colored with dimming function and MOB strobe). jack_sparrow  :unsure:

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3 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

Jack a Dongfeng fan? Nah Hoppy, you got that one wrong

The outcome unfortunately of one incapable of constructing an intelligent argument. He should stick to flower arranging.

Good FP BTW.

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13 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Maybe time to change your own bulb for an LED (multi colored with dimming function and MOB strobe).

Ha ha, but it's actually a 3/4G 700 - 3500 MHz MIMO Ominidirectional antenna.

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8 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Ha ha, but it's actually a 3/4G 700 - 3500 MHz MIMO Ominidirectional antenna.

Under the antenna, does the hat have a standard tin foil liner, Jack? ;)

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3 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

Jack a Dongfeng fan? Nah Hoppy, you got that one wrong

Never said he was a DF fan...

Doesn't matter what team he is the cheer leader for, he is suggesting that the finish line should be outside of the harbour because of the way the leg ended. 

He is throwing a hissy fit because he did not like the finish.

I'm guessing that locals know where the current is strongest and weakest. I'm guessing they know where the land creates dead zones and where you can get a bit of a lift from wind acceleration zones. Maybe Mapfre won 100% because of luck or maybe before the leg the Vila thoroughly researched the local conditions and made their own luck. 

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Actual racers not fanboys know this was a robbery, but they also accept the result as real racers are also true sportsmen. I think the point raised about the VOR being a floating corporate billboard circus is relevant. There is a point where who cares whether the yellow or red marker gets ahead on the board- they are all the same anyway, trying to appease the general public by reducing a major ocean race to not much more than a beercan event in the harbour is a management issue and on some level disrespects the grueling miles getting to the finish port. 

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32 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

Good FP BTW.

Yep.

Edited by Sailbydate
Clarity. I'm not taking sides in this clusterfuck argument
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57 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

I'm a fanboy now bitching about my team (or any team) being pipped at the post???? WTF. 

 

 

And my team (Akzo) actually got gifted a place by the driftfest.

Hoppy you really aren't the brightest bulb on the porch are you. 

see below

 

Just now, hoppy said:

Never said he was a DF fan...

Doesn't matter what team he is the cheer leader for, he is suggesting that the finish line should be outside of the harbour because of the way the leg ended. 

He is throwing a hissy fit because he did not like the finish.

I'm guessing that locals know where the current is strongest and weakest. I'm guessing they know where the land creates dead zones and where you can get a bit of a lift from wind acceleration zones. Maybe Mapfre won 100% because of luck or maybe before the leg the Vila thoroughly researched the local conditions and made their own luck. 

 

 

23 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

The outcome unfortunately of one incapable of constructing a proper argument. He should stick to flower arranging.

Good FP BTW.

Get over it dear

CluelessDismalArthropods-max-1mb.gif

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