southerncross

VOR Leg 8 Itajaí to Newport

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Ok, just another offshore race somewhere, and no wind whatsoever but plenty of tide.

We are drifting nicely with the tide towards the next mark, a turning mark, and a bloody big red lightship with a permanent foghorn powered by the swell.

But fuck it, after hearing that boooooh grunting horn for several hours already, the tide is up and we stop just short of the lightship, we "kedge" with every line and sheet we can find, and wait with our fingers in our ears, for almost 6 hours. Finally the tide takes us around the boooohing lightship, but wait, fuckit, now the tide is against us again, for 6 more hours of boooooh. 

That's yacht racing you know, bit of bad luck, harden the fuck up, or get on a bigger boat and get round it with 6 hours of  tide and have 6 more hours of tide all the way to the finish.  

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40 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

While correct in a geographic or hydrographic sense, you fail to recognise the international flavour of drinkers in this bar where colloquial sailing, not textbook terminology is the norm. 

For instance in Australia, no doubt because of its agricultural and grazing heritage, rural terms are used by offshore racers there. For instance in the Sydney to Hobart, Bass Strait  is called the "Paddock" and the Derwent River which is tidal, the "Drain". N.B. Finishing up the Drain has 75 odd years of history behind it, so despite competitors hating it, it will never be changed.

Similarly many other countries employ colloquial terms for natural features on their race courses, some I can neither spell or pronounce.

So if some here start calling Newport the "Drain", there is no need for you to be incensed.

 

Is this like the "rural" use of the term "pickaninnies"?

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36 minutes ago, despacio avenue said:

Is this like the "rural" use of the term "pickaninnies"?

Despacio I can't detect from your font whether that is either a trick question or serious. I will go for the latter.

The answer is no because the word "picaninny" and its derivatives is not Australian and unlike Nth America was not used in a derogatory racial sense.

Hence it was introduced and into and accepted by some local aboriginal dialects and used simply to describe a small aboriginal child. The source of its introduction into Nth American, Australia and even Melanesian pidgeon language in the early 19th century was probably a derivative from the Portuguese word pequenino/pequeno, or "little".

As for maritime use I have never heard the term used in any form. Maybe in a Anglo maritime sense persons like "Seaman Stains" prefered the oral simplicity of using say "Roger the Cabin Boy"  :-)

Picaninny_Freeze.jpg

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^ As in "Throw me another buoy. This one's split"? ;)

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3 hours ago, Sidecar said:

They obviously learnt their lesson this time round Jack?

Side I don't know Newport well enough to say whether the current favours the western or eastern side into the Drain other than everyone's routes and the bathometry/topography, even in a nothing N/NE at the height of the ebb, the west side appears to be the favoured side up the Drain. 

Unfortunately due to the lateral length of the Exclusion Zone and Dee being to leeward, she really had no option but to take the eastern approach. Even Akzo (behind and yet pipped her) and well to weather had to tack off the western side of the Exclusion Zone.

The comencement of the Mr Squiggle COG's for the leaders clearly indicates where the Finish Line should have been moved forward to before the start in Itajai. It is also hardly offshore where the second mark is in hailing distance of the shoreline.

If not moved pre-start, then at least mid-race with the RO knowing well in advance arrivals in terms of timing, number, seperation and the current, wind forecast and that it would also be in the dark, negating any billboard factor. Fuck the Camera RIB was struggling to find them in the dark/fog.

Why they didn't do that is ancient history, but one would hope a lesson learned.

finish_chartlet.JPG.d15147cd179c43cc1b42ec115203508e.JPG

Finnish.jpg.2a70d2960968c7cd1b606138a719250e.jpg

IMG_20180510_160218.jpg

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Jack said that context can be lost in all the noise here, so just going to put some context to TTOP's race, yes I follow them, no i'm not reaching for razor blades....

TTOP finished 100mins behind Mapfre, or 0.44% of Mapfre winning time, they were 3 miles back when Mapfre finished, or 0.052% of course length.

Context;  the boats keel cants thru 40 degrees, 

Time %  as deg of cant = 0.176 deg.

Dist % as deg of cant = 0.0208 deg.

They hold 1100 litres of water ballast in a centreline tank,

Time % = 4.8 litres,

Dist. % = 0.572 litres

Liz was saying they need to find .1 of a knot, its less than that,  at 20 knots, to cover the time they need to be 0.08 knots quicker,

to cover the distance beaten by, its only 0.01knots.

All the boats in front of TTOP will have much smaller % differences. 

Do they trim for such small % differences, can you trim for such small %, or is this where the capricious hand of fate/luck comes into play.

TTOP for a podium finish in 1 or (fingers x'ed) all the next 3 legs... Viva the 1 design!!

 

 

 

 

 

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47 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

^ As in "Throw me another buoy. This one's split"? ;)

I gave 30 minutes for that one to appear..in 7 minutes..Sail you are quick.

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1 hour ago, HILLY said:

Jack said that context can be lost in all the noise here, so just going to put some context to TTOP's race, yes I follow them, no i'm not reaching for razor blades....

TTOP finished 100mins behind Mapfre, or 0.44% of Mapfre winning time, they were 3 miles back when Mapfre finished, or 0.052% of course length.

Context;  the boats keel cants thru 40 degrees, 

Time %  as deg of cant = 0.176 deg.

Dist % as deg of cant = 0.0208 deg.

They hold 1100 litres of water ballast in a centreline tank,

Time % = 4.8 litres,

Dist. % = 0.572 litres

Liz was saying they need to find .1 of a knot, its less than that,  at 20 knots, to cover the time they need to be 0.08 knots quicker,

to cover the distance beaten by, its only 0.01knots.

All the boats in front of TTOP will have much smaller % differences. 

Do they trim for such small % differences, can you trim for such small %, or is this where the capricious hand of fate/luck comes into play.

TTOP for a podium finish in 1 or (fingers x'ed) all the next 3 legs... Viva the 1 design!!

 

 

 

 

 

So you're saying time is heavier, right??

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4 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Despacio I can't detect from your font whether that is either a trick question or serious. I will go for the latter.

The answer is no because the word "picaninny" and its derivatives is not Australian and unlike Nth America was not used in a derogatory racial sense.

Hence it was introduced and into and accepted by some local aboriginal dialects and used simply to describe a small aboriginal child. The source of its introduction into Nth American, Australia and even Melanesian pidgeon language in the early 19th century was probably a derivative from the Portuguese word pequenino/pequeno, or "little".

As for maritime use I have never heard the term used in any form. Maybe in a Anglo maritime sense persons like "Seaman Stains" prefered the oral simplicity of using say "Roger the Cabin Boy"  :-)

Picaninny_Freeze.jpg

This^^^would really get you in deep shit in Nth America. It would definitely be seen as being racially derogatory. The term "Picaninny" combined with a little black girl eating a watermelon. Jeez. Where do you find this stuff???

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14 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Bracketing Starts in with a Finishes debate is nonsense and correlating VG and RdR finishes that are already offshore and not in a tidal estuary is completely disengenous.

The fact missed by Host Cities and the RO when considering floating billboard issues with finishes is there is a 50% chance of it going to be dark and in daylight the general public don't show up at vantage points to observe the Finish Line even if they can they. They favour the Village where they can see and feel the competitors.  

Newport's promotion of sailing in Nth America using this event and visa versa is first class. This effort from last edition promoting their hometown hero was pretty good.

small5.jpg

Ok, I don't know if I laughed harder over this or Steith's sloth on the road. Was this last edition? 

Is "mooning" a thing outside of the US?

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1 hour ago, despacio avenue said:

This^^^would really get you in deep shit in Nth America. It would definitely be seen as being racially derogatory. The term "Picaninny" combined with a little black girl eating a watermelon. Jeez. Where do you find this stuff???

That is a 20th Century American Advertisement. Up until the mid 60's that little girl and her parents ate, drank and took a piss in segregated venues.

Jesse Owens who won 4 gold medals at the 1936 Olympics (where he was snubbed by Hitler on account he upset the Aryan supremacy applecart) attended a gala event in New York at the Waldorf Astoria in his honour. He and his wife were refused entry even though they knew who he was and forced to use the Goods Lift.

He received no telegram of congratulations and no invitation to the White House (Roosevelt) to shake hands with the President. That honour was reserved for white Olympians only. It took 40 years or until 1976 for the White House (Ford) to correct that injustice.

I apologise for the PA flavour but you really need to get out more.

PS. I met my first Black American sailor on a very serious race boat in 1984. I have not come across many since. The manner in which he was regarded by all back then made me quite proud to be a sailor. Unfortunately the elitism tag is still attached to our sport and until that is broken it won't prosper.

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1 hour ago, despacio avenue said:

Ok, I don't know if I laughed harder over this or Steith's sloth on the road. Was this last edition? 

Is "mooning" a thing outside of the US?

Yes 2014/15. The mooning thing I don't know but this Welsh pro snooker player last week did take his pants off to celebrate a victory.

 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-09/snooker-world-champion-mark-williams-gives-nude-press-conference/9741694

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So the positions changed by, say, 4 miles during the six hours it took them to go from the exclusion zone to the finish

how many times have there been lead changes or changes in DTL of +/- 4 miles sched to sched? Heaps. The near shore issue is a red herring

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38 minutes ago, jackolantern said:

So the positions changed by, say, 4 miles during the six hours it took them to go from the exclusion zone to the finish

how many times have there been lead changes or changes in DTL of +/- 4 miles sched to sched? Heaps. The near shore issue is a red herring

WTF. It was Live tracker with data incl DTL's to the second decimal point (or 20 metres) every couple of minutes.

Also go up a few posts (#2907), the historical evidence is there in black and white.

Have you been on Mars?

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Volvo Ocean Race Diary: With that fog came a dead calm

Annalise Murpy: After 5,700 miles almost the entire standings for the fleet upended

Wed, May 9, 2018, 06:00

Annalise Murphy

At last, a bed! A warm, soft, dry bed – not angled constantly at 30 degrees or pitching.

Better still, it’s in an apartment close to the waterfront in the centre of Newport, Rhode Island, with its own kitchen so a chance to practice my chef skills.

Both are a welcome distraction to the last two weeks or so and the eighth leg of the Volvo Ocean Race on board Turn the Tide on Plastic that has just ended.

After 5,700 nautical miles from Itajai, Brazil, almost the entire standings for the fleet were upended, within sight of the finish.

Still freezing

Or it would have been in sight were it not for the fog that shrouded Fort Adams and the race village.

With that fog came a dead calm together with the tide running against us.

I was off-watch and sleeping on a stack of sails in the bow, all of us keeping our weight forward for best trim of the boat, wearing three layers of thermal gear but still freezing cold.

When I came on watch I said: “Look guys, only six miles to the finish!”

But it was another 12 hours before we crossed the line. Maybe I shouldn’t have said anything.

We were so close to achieving our longed-for podium place but yet again it was not to be, denied by the twists of ocean racing.

As mentioned in previous logs, our teamwork and performance has really come on a lot over the past eight months. We’re definitely able to hold our own with the other six teams, possibly better in some situations. We are not the underdogs any longer despite holding seventh and last place in the overall standings.

For almost a full week at the start of this leg, we held the lead, properly earned and not by chance. After slipping into a drag race up past the Caribbean and Bermuda, we remained in the hunt among the leading boats, well placed for a battle at the finish.

In the end, as the wind started to fade, we rolled the dice and opted to sail one side of a marine traffic exclusion zone while the leading boats went the other.

Our tactic looked like it was going to pay off as the fleet converged just a few miles from the finish; at one point we were less than two miles from the leader.

But then the breeze faded and we were on the wrong side of the course for the foul tide. We were powerless as our position slipped from fourth to fifth and then, out of the gloom, Team Akzonobel appeared from behind us to within 30m and passed by in the driftathon.

And so we placed sixth for the leg.

Up front, there was plenty of upheaval in the overall standings as Xabi Fernandez’s hugely experienced Mapfre crew made good on their steady advance over the past few days and slipped ahead of leg leader Brunel.

They have now regained the overall lead in the race with just the transatlantic leg in 10 days’ time remaining.

In fact, we have just spent longer at sea in the last leg than we’re likely to race in the remaining stages.

Perilous craft

We’re disappointed, but still cheered because our team has gelled and is working well, so we still have a chance at reaching our goal.

As for the leg finish, the light winds were the opposite of what we’ve experienced for most of the last two weeks.

We sailed through a gale after passing Bermuda and it was here that I experienced first hand how perilous these boats can be.

I was on the winch grinder on the leeward side of the boat (the lower side when the boat is heeled). I prefer this as there’s more shelter from the worst of the waves breaking across the deck.

Normally, I’m clipped on to the frame surrounding the steering wheel, but just as I unclipped from here to move forward and clip on to the next strong point, the boat pitched up and I was thrown down to leeward and against a hard corner. The pain was instant and I thought I had broken a rib. In the same moment I knew that I was exposed and that the next breaking wave could catch me. I’d be powerless in the deluge of water.

I managed to get going again but the pain was pretty bad for the next two days. I’ll be checked out by the doctors now that we’re ashore and hopefully it’s just bruising.

In spite of this and the result, it’s been a fabulous leg. After sailing into the thick weed of the Sargasso Sea, once clear we were wondering if we’d ever see marine wildlife again.

We weren’t disappointed.

On the approaches to Newport, we were escorted by plenty of dolphins , a pod of about 20 pilot whales and what was probably a humpback whale that breached close to the boat.

We’ll probably see more in the next leg. It will be colder and very wet, but we’ll be heading to Cardiff and getting that bit closer to home.

In conversation with David Branigan

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-sports/volvo-ocean-race-diary-with-that-fog-came-a-dead-calm-1.3488442

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Playing God with offshore racing

Published on May 8th, 2018

As technology evolves to modify DNA in humans, opponents of genetic engineering worry about unknown effects on future generations and the temptation for future parents to pay for enhancements such as greater intelligence or athletic ability. Playing God will have unintended consequences, they say.

But as it pertains to offshore racing, it may be time for us to start meddling.

In fairness, meddling has already occurred. The once daily roll call which gave teams a glimpse of their opponent’s location has been replaced with AIS and more frequent updates. Tracking tools, though often delayed, provide each boat’s path, while routing software limit the chance of getting caught on the “wrong side of the course.”

Now it’s time to review changes at the finish, and it’s on the Volvo Ocean Race to be the leader.

The race organizers proved they could play God by modifying the course length of Leg 1 to ensure the teams finished at a fan-friendly hour. This was done by adding a leg near the end of the course which had no prior bearing on tactical decisions.

When the teams on Leg 4 approached Hong Kong in darkness, with strong winds whipping the boats through congested fishing grounds, a lack of visibility contributed to a fatal collision. The arrival time of the teams was known, and an adjusted course length could have assured a daylight finish.

The end of Leg 8 in Newport provides another reason to consider playing God, as explained by David J LaJuett of Rockville, MD:

“My sad impression after following the VOR Leg 8 to Newport is that the result is grossly unfair for all concerned. And given this level of unfairness, I believe the organizers need to take a deep look into this.

“For an offshore race to see the result decided by a few miles of fluky no-wind inshore drifting about is just wrong. Apparently MAPFRE won by merest chance of a slight puff of wind, after Team Brunel had led for thousands of offshore miles.

“This sort of total park-up at the end of a leg results in a complete negation of major offshore racing achievements. Sport is chancy, yes, but it must go by rules that ensure some basic fairness. The race organizer is not now doing this.”

Do you have an opinion on adjusting an offshore course length for spectators, safety, or fairness? Submit it to editor@sailingscuttlebutt.com.

https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2018/05/08/playing-god-offshore-racing/

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Leg 8 Strategic Review Part 3 – How they did it...

MAPFRE’s dramatic win in Leg 8 was the result of a quite extraordinary comeback – almost 50nm behind with 36 hours to go, they had been in fifth place for most of the leg and struggling with the power systems that control the keel position for several days.

https://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/news/11678_Leg-8-Strategic-Review-Part-3-How-they-did-it-.html

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^^^ Thanks SX ..but another batch of teary competitor post race media pieces about how they are worn out, accept the result, can't wait for Leg 9, have reconnected with their pet guinea pig...blah blah.

Gee wizz.. for balance I wish someone at VOR Headquarters would do a nice media piece about the deprevation, trials and tribulations of the fans.

Some have married and divorced in one leg, had a sex change off the back of one lousy gybe and or killed their pet guinea pig for God's sake.

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You can tell you are racing in the light stuff when . . . 

The bubbles in the water beside your boat are moving faster than you are . .  totally been there

(But of course this does not account for the current) 

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Warning, topic shift:

thinking of taking the family down to Newport to see the boats and assundry other associates show pieces. Only day that will work is this Saturday. When it will be raining. Will this suck balls for 13, 10, and 7 year old boys plus a wife who is supportive but doesn’t really have the sailing bug? 13 and 10 year olds are into it  

Any insight is appreciated. 

 

Thanks

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6 minutes ago, frostbit said:

Warning, topic shift:

thinking of taking the family down to Newport to see the boats and assundry other associates show pieces. Only day that will work is this Saturday. When it will be raining. Will this suck balls for 13, 10, and 7 year old boys plus a wife who is supportive but doesn’t really have the sailing bug? 13 and 10 year olds are into it  

Any insight is appreciated. 

 

Thanks

If it's that day or not at all then get your arses down there

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16 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

That is a 20th Century American Advertisement. Up until the mid 60's that little girl and her parents ate, drank and took a piss in segregated venues.

Jesse Owens who won 4 gold medals at the 1936 Olympics (where he was snubbed by Hitler on account he upset the Aryan supremacy applecart) attended a gala event in New York at the Waldorf Astoria in his honour. He and his wife were refused entry even though they knew who he was and forced to use the Goods Lift.

He received no telegram of congratulations and no invitation to the White House (Roosevelt) to shake hands with the President. That honour was reserved for white Olympians only. It took 40 years or until 1976 for the White House (Ford) to correct that injustice.

I apologise for the PA flavour but you really need to get out more.

PS. I met my first Black American sailor on a very serious race boat in 1984. I have not come across many since. The manner in which he was regarded by all back then made me quite proud to be a sailor. Unfortunately the elitism tag is still attached to our sport and until that is broken it won't prosper.

Obviously we aren't connecting. I was horrified by the Pickaninny ad. I can assure you, though I don't need to, that I get out a lot. I was actively involved in the desegregation movement in the US in the 70s, marching and protesting in Washington, DC, sat just feet from Corretta King  as she spoke at the Elipse, and was involved elsewhere in the US and in my legal work thereafter with regard to the rights and equal treatment of all races and heritages, particularly up here with Alaska Natives.   I am well aware of Jesse Owens ' treatment during and after the Olympics by Germany and the US government. I am ashamed by the treatment of the Japanese during World War II as well as African Americans for decades.  Sailing is a very "white" sport; so is skiing. We don't need to argue over who is more race-conscious. 

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7 hours ago, frostbit said:

Warning, topic shift:

thinking of taking the family down to Newport to see the boats and assundry other associates show pieces. Only day that will work is this Saturday. When it will be raining. Will this suck balls for 13, 10, and 7 year old boys plus a wife who is supportive but doesn’t really have the sailing bug? 13 and 10 year olds are into it  

Any insight is appreciated. 

 

Thanks

If it were not many thousands of miles for me to go to any stop for this Race, I would go and take kids. If you look at the VOR web site it appears there are lots of fun stuff for all ages of kids and adults to do at the venue, regardless of whether they are interested in sailing.

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3 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Mea culpa despacio for misinterpreting your reply.

No problem at all. I appreciate your insight, sense of humor, and fierce loyalty to what you believe in. 

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Very kind of you. Anyway I'm onto Social Mobility and Class Warfare now on Leg 9 after someone said Charlie E was too Ivy League for their tastes. :-)

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9 hours ago, frostbit said:

hinking of taking the family down to Newport to see the boats and assundry other associates show pieces. Only day that will work is this Saturday. When it will be raining. Will this suck balls for 13, 10, and 7 year old boys plus a wife who is supportive but doesn’t really have the sailing bug? 13 and 10 year olds are into it  

Well worth going. We took an assortment of adults and 4 children in Auckland and everyone loved it. There is full boat hull cut in half so you can see all the workings and you can take turns to go on deck and play with the winches and wheels etc. Volvo have a big display with lots of hands on interactives. A bit ra ra Volvo but done well enough not to matter. All the teams have a staffed base where you can meet team members and collect free stuff like posters of the boats. Musto has a big shop selling team branded and Musto gear. There's a big auditorium playing a looped history of the race and doco about this edition.

Anyway, I could go on. We went to Auckland to watch the race but ended up at the roadshow somewhat by accident and enjoyed it. Got an invite to tour Scally, which was probably the absolute highlight - not so much a few weeks later when Fish was lost.

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And while we are making nice (this could get old in a hurry), I want to thank 

Jack for becoming more civil. 

Image result for civility

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1 hour ago, AJ Oliver said:

And while we are making nice (this could get old in a hurry), I want to thank 

Jack for becoming more civil. 

Image result for civility

AJ,

Complete thread drift: I grew up in northeast Ohio and family friends owned a cottage on Lake Erie in Sandusky and we would visit in the summer, waterski, etc. It was great. We'd also go to Cedar Point. The last time I rode on roller coasters and other rides that involved being upside down and plunging was when I took my oldest nephews, who were then in their mid to late teens,  to Six Flags in Arlington Texas.  It was our goal to ride them all. We did. It took days to recover. Maybe I never have...

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Brave... I feel more comfortable up a mast at night getting belted than taking those scary amusement park rides.

Now that's a cat that should have stayed in the bag Jack.

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16 hours ago, frostbit said:

Warning, topic shift:

thinking of taking the family down to Newport to see the boats and assundry other associates show pieces. Only day that will work is this Saturday. When it will be raining. Will this suck balls for 13, 10, and 7 year old boys plus a wife who is supportive but doesn’t really have the sailing bug? 13 and 10 year olds are into it  

Any insight is appreciated. 

 

Thanks

http://whatsupnewp.com/things-to-do-on-day-4-of-the-volvo-ocean-race-newport-stopover/

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Not sure where this fits but I thought it was amusing:

 

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14 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

And while we are making nice (this could get old in a hurry), I want to thank 

Jack for becoming more civil. 

Image result for civility

Bugger. I'm sorry I missed that. Did anyone get a pic? ;)

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Volvo Ocean Race. Bruno Dubois (Dongfeng): "There is no boss on this race!"

Bruno Dubois, director of Dongfeng race team | Dongfeng Team

Collected by Jacques GUYADER.

Published on 11/05/2018 at 11:15

The incredible arrival of the 8th stage of the Volvo Ocean Race in Newport, in the wind and currents, made a big loser: Dongfeng. The director of the Chinese team skippered by French, Bruno Dubois leaves his reserve to express his displeasure and throws a pavement in the pool.

Bruno Dubois, do you seem to be recovering after this finish which has upset the end of the race?

So far, I have always told our sailors to defend this race as much as possible, especially with the dramas she experienced this year in Hong Kong, with the death of the Chinese fisherman and with the disappearance of John Fischer on the 7th. step. They are all thrilled to participate in this race, which is the world's highest level of offshore racing and competition. There is nothing better. But the…

Do you think that should never have happened?

There are two things to remember. First, this problem does not burst like that. In Alicante, in April 2017, during a meeting, we all asked the organization to avoid arrivals in twisted areas, rivers, where it is known that the skyline is frequent, and that there is a lot of current. They told us, "We'll do everything we can for that". We had asked that, because we ourselves in Lisbon in 2015 had already lost the stage on such a lottery. This year in Lisbon, Akzo Nobel had already suffered from that too ...

Did you mention this issue before departure?

Yes, you must know that during the briefing skippers in Itajai, Bouwe Bekking, the skipper of Team Brunel put the question to the race management and asked that a door be established at the finish, upstream. The race committee told us: No we sold to the city of Newport an arrival in front of the port, for the public. Final point, it was without appeal.

What could they do?

They could have made a final finish line 2 miles off the DST and awarded a bonus point to the one crossing the one in front of Fort Adams, for example.  As long as we arrived almost at night, and in the fog. The problem will rest for the arrival in Cardiff, or it will be worse, because there can be three to four knots of current. I think they are now thinking about it.

The race management did not want to know anything?

The problem in this Volvo Ocean Race is that it does not have a boss! They could have reduced the route, legally, or expect another arrival, but they make us understand that commercially it was possible. We are told that on a Sydney-Hobart we would not reduce. Okay, but it's only a 600-mile race and, sorry, but the Volvo is something else than the Sydney-Hobart, Cowes Week. It is the biggest race in the world, it is intended to innovate, not be follower, nor hearty.

https://www.ouest-france.fr/sport/voile/volvo-ocean-race-bruno-dubois-il-n-y-plus-de-patron-sur-cette-course-5751724

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3 hours ago, southerncross said:

There are two things to remember. First, this problem does not burst like that. In Alicante, in April 2017, during a meeting, we all asked the organization to avoid arrivals in twisted areas, rivers, where it is known that the skyline is frequent, and that there is a lot of current. They told us, "We'll do everything we can for that". We had asked that, because we ourselves in Lisbon in 2015 had already lost the stage on such a lottery. 

Yes, you must know that during the briefing skippers in Itajai, Bouwe Bekking, the skipper of Team Brunel put the question to the race management and asked that a door be established at the finish, upstream. The race committee told us: No we sold to the city of Newport an arrival in front of the port, for the public. Final point, it was without appeal.

Now I don't have to kill you.

Some people here might need to get used to the taste of crow.

 

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5 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Some people here might need to get used to the taste of crow.

I know.  The whole end to that Leg was strange.  I had the same knee jerk reaction that a lot of people had even though my team won it!  It seemed off.  Wrong somehow although the course was set and agreed on.

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13 minutes ago, southerncross said:

  Wrong somehow although the course was set and agreed on.

Well not really..set yes but there was no agreement other than when they crossed the starting line.

Bruno's comments are not just restricted to Team Brunel.

Assured there will be no return for most teams if Volvo are still running the next edition.

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Just now, jack_sparrow said:

Well not really..set yes but there was no agreement other than when they crossed the starting line.

Bruno's comments are not just restricted Team Brunel. Assured there will be no return for most teams if Volvo are still running it.

Right.  Tend to your thread will you.  It's needing tending to.

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18.2
Further to RRS 60.1 (a) a Boat that wishes to lodge a protest shall promptly inform the RC giving the  details of the incident and the protestee to: protests@volvooceanrace.com
 
18.3
Addendum Q applies for the practice race, Pro - Am and In - Port Races and the in-port section of a  Leg when so stated in the Leg Addendum.
 
18.4
For a Leg: a protest or a request for redress by a Boat for an incident in the racing area shall be e-mailed to protests@volvooceanrace.com or delivered to the local raceoffice within 24 hours of:
(a) The protesting Boat finishing;
or
(b) The protesting Boat retiring from the Leg;
or
(c) The protesting Boat suspending Racing and does not intend to continue Racing in that Leg.

TTOP protest dismissed as per SI 18.1 not fully complied to.....

http://volvooceanrace-img.s3.amazonaws.com/files/m47002_volvo-ocean-race-case-04-decision-ttop-protest-akzo.pdf

would seam the ' promptly'   "wishes to lodge" e-mail "giving the details of the incident and the protestee " is different from "protest" "e-mailed" "within 24 hrs"...

e-mail was received 10 hrs after finishing... 

Jury finds 18.2 was not met in full.....  as in 18.4 's 24 hrs introduces  a deadline  that does NOT  alleviate from e-mailing promptly, TTOP 's 10 hrs do not constitute promptly.. (err on the safe side would be A.S.A.P) ?? 

   

 

 

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That's a pretty poorly worded SI.  The term "promptly" gives the jury too much discretion to dismiss or accept protests as they see fit - which will kind of always leave some parties thinking they were too lenient or too flexible.  It doesn't even say promptly in relation to what? The incident? the finish?     Admirals says 10 hrs after finishing, but the jury said 10 hours after the incident and that the incident happened shortly before the finish.  What is "shortly" or "promptly" on a 6000nm 16 day leg?

If they want a one design close racing race, then they have to expect some on the water incidents and it is unreasonable to expect them to send a crew member down below to start writing an email immediately in the aftermath of an incident, specially as they may still be in close quarters with the other boat(s) and need all hands. This interpretation means that no protest can be consider "prompt" unless immediately after raising the red flag "promptly" the email is sent!  What about crew interviews etc. to gather the details needed for the protest?  Must they be done in the middle of a tacking dual to the finish?  That is clearly ridiculous.   But what is not?  Can they finish the current manoeuvre before sending the email? Can they finish the current tacking dual? Can they finish? Can they moor the boat after the finish? Can they take time to interview their witnesses?  

The SI should be absolutely clear and leave no doubt as to when a protest should be lodge. It should something like 24 hours after the incident or 4 hours after a boats finish, which ever come first.

 

 

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25 minutes ago, gregwilkins said:

That's a pretty poorly worded SI.  The term "promptly" gives the jury too much discretion to dismiss or accept protests as they see fit - which will kind of always leave some parties thinking they were too lenient or too flexible.  It doesn't even say promptly in relation to what? The incident? the finish?     Admirals says 10 hrs after finishing, but the jury said 10 hours after the incident and that the incident happened shortly before the finish.  What is "shortly" or "promptly" on a 6000nm 16 day leg?

If they want a one design close racing race, then they have to expect some on the water incidents and it is unreasonable to expect them to send a crew member down below to start writing an email immediately in the aftermath of an incident, specially as they may still be in close quarters with the other boat(s) and need all hands. This interpretation means that no protest can be consider "prompt" unless immediately after raising the red flag "promptly" the email is sent!  What about crew interviews etc. to gather the details needed for the protest?  Must they be done in the middle of a tacking dual to the finish?  That is clearly ridiculous.   But what is not?  Can they finish the current manoeuvre before sending the email? Can they finish the current tacking dual? Can they finish? Can they moor the boat after the finish? Can they take time to interview their witnesses?  

The SI should be absolutely clear and leave no doubt as to when a protest should be lodge. It should something like 24 hours after the incident or 4 hours after a boats finish, which ever come first.

 

 

Actually no part of the SI's alters the "Introduction" part of the RRS. Here it CLEARLY states "Other words and terms are used in the sensed ordinarily understood in nautical or general use.

The term "promptly" means "done without delay". 10 hours is clearly a delay and doesn't give the jury discretion. The protest requirements were not met. The Jury followed the rules which include the RRS and the SI's

No-one in general use would consider a delay of 10 hours "prompt".

According to the Oxford English Dictionary "prompt" = done or acting without delay. 10 hours does not satisfy that definition. I am sure your partner (or boss) would consider you prompt if you turned up for a date (or for work) 10 hours late.

Protest invalid.

It may seem harsh but those are the rules.

SS

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giving the  details of the incident

after more then 10 hours can very well be very prompt depending on "the details" and "the giving to". The jury in this case decided 18.2 was not complied to in full, their considerations are not publicized.

 

  

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12 minutes ago, Admirals said:

after more then 10 hours can very well be very prompt depending on "the details" and "the giving to". The jury in this case decided 18.2 was not complied to in full, their considerations are not publicized.

 

  

You'd have a tough time getting that argument past any PC I've even known.

Also the format of a Protest report generally gives facts found, rules in play and decision not the thought processes or 'considerations'. I am sure Dee accepted the decision with good grace.

SS

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22 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

It may seem harsh but those are the rules.

Perhaps in this case, 10 hours is not prompt (although there is some confusion with 24h given by 18.4).

However, I stand by my criticism that it is really poorly worded and gives too much discretion.  what if the protest had been emailed 2 hours after the incident? 1 hour?

The "done without delay" definition of the RRS would indicate that boat of those would also not be prompt.   Prompt action for raising the red flag means as soon as you can physically put your hand on the flag and hold it up, which typically does not including going below to find the flag or consulting with other crew members if it is worthwhile to protest or not.

So if the same standard is put to promptly sending an email, does the skipper now need an email  terminal on deck within easy reach so an email can be types and sent within a minute?  Well that's ridiculous, as the SI ask for details and you cannot provide details in such a short period.   So more time needs to be given, which raises the question how much  time is acceptable to collect details and to write a description of the protest?

I just don't understand why they have left if undefined?  Any arbitrary time fixed time limit over about 30 minutes could probably be workable in most circumstances, but you'd have to think giving an hour or two to write the details down would be fairer.... or even the 24 hours stipulated by 18.4

 

 

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, gregwilkins said:

Perhaps in this case, 10 hours is not prompt (although there is some confusion with 24h given by 18.4).

However, I stand by my criticism that it is really poorly worded and gives too much discretion.  what if the protest had been emailed 2 hours after the incident? 1 hour?

The "done without delay" definition of the RRS would indicate that boat of those would also not be prompt.   Prompt action for raising the red flag means as soon as you can physically put your hand on the flag and hold it up, which typically does not including going below to find the flag or consulting with other crew members if it is worthwhile to protest or not.

So if the same standard is put to promptly sending an email, does the skipper now need an email  terminal on deck within easy reach so an email can be types and sent within a minute?  Well that's ridiculous, as the SI ask for details and you cannot provide details in such a short period.   So more time needs to be given, which raises the question how much  time is acceptable to collect details and to write a description of the protest?

I just don't understand why they have left if undefined?  Any arbitrary time fixed time limit over about 30 minutes could probably be workable in most circumstances, but you'd have to think giving an hour or two to write the details down would be fairer.... or even the 24 hours stipulated by 18.4

 

 

 

 

 

 

You say that "perhaps in this case 10 hours is not prompt". I would like to hear of an example where you would consider a 10 hour delay TO BE prompt.

Sometimes SIs a quite complicated, this is not one of those times.

Pretty clear really. 18.2 promptly inform of intention to protest (which could be later withdrawn) 18.4 the actual lodging of the protest once racing concluded.

2 Different things and no different from most sailing races where you have to hail and fly the flag immediately and file the protest with the RC within an hour of finishing. The only additional requirement is to PROMPTLY inform the RC by email (Inmarsat) 

You are right, the idea of having an email terminal in the cockpit IS ridiculous. However promptly means without delay, it does not mean immediately.(Normal language usage)

Any PC would allow for going below, switching on the comms gear, AFTER clearing up any on deck mess that might be as a result of the incident or otherwise. That would still be promptly.

Of course you can give details of the incident in a short time period - for example "Rule 10, we were on starboard, they didn't give way, we had to take avoiding action, they didn't do turns. We immediately hailed and raised the flag, don't know if they heard us or saw the flag" How long does that take? Took me about 20 seconds.

Add the time it takes to fire up the laptop and Inmarsat and 2 minute tops.

TTOP informed DC of protest 10 hours later I believe. There is no way imaginable that 10 hours could ever be considered "promptly" or "without delay".

Besides this is nothing new - the above quote is from the Sailing Instructions that were issued in December 2015

 Much as I hate protests that are ruled invalid due to a 'technicality', especially those which may have had merit, I say again, the rules are the rules and these ARE professional sailors.

Sadly we will never know what the protest was about, and therefore whether it had merit or not, as the Volvo Ocean Race publish the PC decision but for some reason don't publish the actual protest. 

SS

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On 5/14/2018 at 9:03 AM, southerncross said:

Right.  Tend to your thread will you.  It's needing tending to.

I think it's past that SX, nice of you to notice though.

 

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