hoppy

Competitive One Design ocean racers

Recommended Posts

Which yachts, designed to be one design racers, are or were once upon a time competitive racers under the handicap systems of the time, be it IRC, ORCi, IOR or another, whether it is racing in open fleets to class or out of class?

Discuss

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sydney 38 must be a good start to the list.

Asking for a "competitive racer" under a rating system is a bit of an odd requirement. The whole point of the rating is to level the field. So a competitive design is arguably a design which exploits the ratings loopholes most successfully, rather than being in and of itself a good design. Or do you mean a one design boat that has performance that the rating system considers to be particularly good (and thus is at a competitive disadvantage to slower rated boats.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

Asking for a "competitive racer" under a rating system is a bit of an odd requirement. The whole point of the rating is to level the field. 

It sounds great in principle, but it does not work that way in the real world.

If the rating systems really worked, then it would not matter what boat you have, just put on new race sail, tune the rig, go on a diet, give it a good bottom job and get a gun crew, then you can win in a grand prix level fleet. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, hoppy said:

It sounds great in principle, but it does not work that way in the real world.

If the rating systems really worked, then it would not matter what boat you have, just put on new race sail, tune the rig, go on a diet, give it a good bottom job and get a gun crew, then you can win in a grand prix level fleet. 

Indeed, but exploiting it can lead to boat designs that are intrinsically poorer performers than need be, just that they rate even worse, and thus are competitive.  IOR gave us some of the most ugly boats afloat. So I wasn't sure what you were looking for as a competitive design. One that was intrinsically fast and damn the ratings, one that exploited the ratings and was possibly slow, but won on corrected time, or one that the ratings system said was fast. I guess one that the rating system said was fast, but was even faster would be the best answer, but I'm not sure anyone ever managed that trick.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, hoppy said:

Which yachts, designed to be one design racers, are or were once upon a time competitive racers under the handicap systems of the time, be it IRC, ORCi, IOR or another, whether it is racing in open fleets to class or out of class?

Discuss

J111 is the first that comes to mind

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just think of it this way...

The Botin 52 Ichi Ban is not a one off, but the first of a OD fleet. Fast and very competitive and now they need to start photo copying it, creating a class association and rule book. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, hoppy said:

Just think of it this way...

The Botin 52 Ichi Ban is not a one off, but the first of a OD fleet. Fast and very competitive and now they need to start photo copying it, creating a class association and rule book. 

They do it's just a box Rule not OD! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Competitive at which level? Club and maybe the ORC/IMS nationals, or more in a semi-pro "grand prix"circuit?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, SCANAS said:

They do it's just a box Rule not OD! 

That's VO70, but I'm trying to fine competitive "VO65's"...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Zander said:

Competitive at which level? Club and maybe the ORC/IMS nationals, or more in a semi-pro "grand prix"circuit?

S2H, Middle Sea, Fastnet, TransPac etc... and the type of races that the best racers of the country want to compete in

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, hoppy said:

That's VO70, but I'm trying to fine competitive "VO65's"...

But why the restriction to rating systems? How about successful production boats within a wider box rule?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Hold Fast said:

J111 is the first that comes to mind

Good call. Even though it's brand new, I would say the J121 appears to be a good fundament for OD offshore racing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The point of the thread is about OD boats being competitive, not BOX rule or series production boats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, hoppy said:

It sounds great in principle, but it does not work that way in the real world.

If the rating systems really worked, then it would not matter what boat you have, just put on new race sail, tune the rig, go on a diet, give it a good bottom job and get a gun crew, then you can win in a grand prix level fleet. 

 

Not true.  The performance curves of racers and cruiser racers are getting more and more different from each other and it' sbecoming harder and harder for single number handicapping to rate mixed fleets fairly.  The weather is becoming more and more a factor as a result.

In theory IMS-style Performance Curve or Constructed Course Scoring could work better but everyone hates it, with some justification as they are complex, hard to get your head around and introduce a further bunch of Scorer assumptions that end up having a big bearing on results.

Sounds more and more like segregated fleets based on similar peformance curves, or one-design / box rules are the future. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, hoppy said:

The point of the thread is about OD boats being competitive, not BOX rule or series production boats.

OD =/= production boats?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, DickDastardly said:

Not true.  The performance curves of racers and cruiser racers are getting more and more different from each other and it' sbecoming harder and harder for single number handicapping to rate mixed fleets fairly.  The weather is becoming more and more a factor as a result.

In theory IMS-style Performance Curve or Constructed Course Scoring could work better but everyone hates it, with some justification as they are complex, hard to get your head around and introduce a further bunch of Scorer assumptions that end up having a big bearing on results.

Sounds more and more like segregated fleets based on similar peformance curves, or one-design / box rules are the future. 

Exactly what he said!

Even 40 footers that weigh about the same now have very different performance characteristics across wind angles and range (take a Sydney 38 and a J 111, First 40 and a J 133) for example) so weather determines most outcomes now days.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, hoppy said:

That's VO70, but I'm trying to fine competitive "VO65's"...

It's only ever OD if the cheque books are OD too. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

J/125 comes to mind. MOD 70's and Orma 60's had a good run, as has the VO65. Oh, did you mean boats within your price range??

I'm not a one design fan outside a few classes (J/24 and First 36.7 come to mind, Viper 640 etc.) because most one design=single manufacturer, i.e the class doesn't own the templates or the rules outright. Box rules work very successfully and give owners who like to optimize a framework to optimize within.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, lydia said:

Exactly what he said!

Even 40 footers that weigh about the same now have very different performance characteristics across wind angles and range (take a Sydney 38 and a J 111, First 40 and a J 133) for example) so weather determines most outcomes now days.

Sounds like a weekly race on Moreton Bay

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, lydia said:

Exactly what he said!

Even 40 footers that weigh about the same now have very different performance characteristics across wind angles and range (take a Sydney 38 and a J 111, First 40 and a J 133) for example) so weather determines most outcomes now days.

What are the conditions and course layouts that suit the S38?

I assume that W/L course works well?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, samc99us said:

J/125 comes to mind. MOD 70's and Orma 60's had a good run, as has the VO65. Oh, did you mean boats within your price range??

I'm not a one design fan outside a few classes (J/24 and First 36.7 come to mind, Viper 640 etc.) because most one design=single manufacturer, i.e the class doesn't own the templates or the rules outright. Box rules work very successfully and give owners who like to optimize a framework to optimize within.

So when exactly did the 125s race one design...?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, ASP said:

So when exactly did the 125s race one design...?

beats me, but they sure do haul ass and seem to do well in transpac .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not sure there are many OD designs out there that are large enough to be succesful in the types of races you mention. Nautor-Swan has tried. Could it be that part of why you are not finding many is simply because there are not many?

Smaller boats, I think there are some. The Js mentioned in the threat (and some older ones J24 - J35) were competative at above club level. The Mumm 36 and the old Figaro boat worked quite well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

swan 45. very favourable rating under IRC and a good and fast boat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

I guess this thread is about lots of other boats you won't be buying?

It's not for my shopping, so it's very likely I won't buy any discussed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everyone has forgotten the J/44. One design start for Bermuda for almost two decades, IRC bandits on any kind of distance race, go great with a sprit mod. Comfy. Bomb proof. Plentiful. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unless i missed it.., the OP never really defined what was meant by "competitive"

to me, within the context of OD racing.., it means primarily that there is a good turn out (in this case for offshore racing) , the sailors are reasonably skilled.., and that skill is distributed evenly enough across the fleet that many boats have a chance of winning.

OP also didn't say whether the question was about boats that are mostly pro.., or mostly amateur.

East Coast USA.., two amateur boats come to mind - the J/44 and the J/120 - with the 120 having a bit of a resurgence now. I can't really think of anything newer that gets a turnout... sure there are boats that _might_ make a good offshore OD racer, _if_ people bought them and raced them offshore..., but mostly that isn't happening with those other classes. The 44's have had boats in both sprit and non-sprit configurations in offshore races for a while now.., so they are maybe not as OD as could be...

of new boats, probably the J/121 has the best chance - they are selling them - but it remains to be seen whether the owners enter enough ocean races together, to be considered a "class". another issue is whether owners begin customizing or turboing them to a degree that  they really aren't the same.

XP44 or 38 would be good too.., but i'm not sure there are going to be enough of them in any one race to be considered a class

edit- XP44 really seems like a natural successor to the J/44; i'll bet that if J/boats had built that boat - back in 2010, or whenever they came out - there would be 10 or more of them sailing to bermuda this year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/04/2018 at 5:11 AM, Swanno said:

Grand Mistral 80's?

 

Where are these boats hiding? Haven’t heard much about them in years. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, mad said:

Where are these boats hiding? Haven’t heard much about them in years. 

Google search tells me that onewas entered into the Hobart race last year. Shame the series didn't take off way back when.

certainly look like an 80 foot VO60

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, armchairadmiral said:

Don't ever sell your boat Hoppy.We would miss your musings / dreaming threads if you actually bought another boat. It should be perfect for you after all this ?

Haha..

This is more of a thinking and wondering thread, partly brought on by the discussions about the OD VO65.

I've spent so much time with my 80k thread, that I feel that once I am finally racing my 80k'er perhaps I will keep it going as new boats come on the market, or maybe not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/12/2018 at 10:17 PM, ASP said:

Santa Cruz 50?

Express 27

Express 37

Cal 40

Moore 24

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There aren't many true OD with a big enough fleet to offer actual OD racing which are offshore racer. 

Around here a few spring to mind: 

Sigma 38, First 31.7 and 36.7, J 105, sun fast 32 and 36. All these had fleets and were able to win IRC races. 

JPK are not one design, each boat is tailored. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Sigmas, both the 33 & 38, The David Thomas Bolero Quarter Tonner, they built 38 of them - they wouldn't have sold that many if they weren't competitive & the prototype, Purple Haze won the first of the re-vamped Quarter Ton Cup.

Not only were these 3 competitive under IOR, they are no slouches under IRC either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

The Sigmas, both the 33 & 38, The David Thomas Bolero Quarter Tonner, they built 38 of them - they wouldn't have sold that many if they weren't competitive & the prototype, Purple Haze won the first of the re-vamped Quarter Ton Cup.

Not only were these 3 competitive under IOR, they are no slouches under IRC either.

The 38 was the scratch boat for IRC back when I was racing them in the Uk in the mid '90's. 1.000. Made it very easy to work out how you were doing on the water in a mixed fleet. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 19/04/2018 at 8:09 AM, Panoramix said:

JPK are not one design, each boat is tailored. 

 

Although they are not one design most JPK 10.10 have converged to pretty much the same rating nowadays, which means they (almost)  race each others in real time.

I like that, It brings diversity to the fleet while keeping it homogeneous overall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

almost all of the Santa Cruz boats.. SC 27's, E 27's, Olson 30. Hobie 33, Santa Cruz 50 and 52, those things all seem to do quite well both inshore and offshore. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now