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Route du Rhum 2018

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5 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Watch this space....it might not be a Canadian in a 31' timber shitbox that upsets the applecart, but be assured he won't be French.

... probably with a lightbulb on his helmet :-)

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2 minutes ago, remenich said:

... probably with a lightbulb on his helmet :-)

Amazing you took time off kissing your sister to post...turnip.

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You seem to have confused the 'little 31' timber tri' with HAPPY.

31' Newick VAL '76

val_trimaran2.jpg

Olympus Photo Walter Greene design '78 36'?

Image result for trimaran happy

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5 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

You seem to have confused the 'little 31' timber tri' with HAPPY.

No I haven't..Happy a later sister to Olympus who won the first RdR.

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58 minutes ago, ctutmark said:

Back in the days of the ORMA 60s a number of them broke off their windward floats. If memory serves it was thought to be wave impacts on the windward side forward when the float was in the air and not supported by the water surface. Load spike at the front beam junction

 

31 minutes ago, Hydrogene said:

It was also a broken windward float that put an end to one of Franck Cammas RTW attempt on Groupama 3, close to Captown. The difference was that it was the side impact of the waves on the windward float that were to blame in this case, if I remember correctly.

Groupama 3 is now Idec, sailed by Joyon.

I've seen a trimaran with fat, high displacement amas (~200% or more) be severely shaken each time a wave from abeam the windward side passes underneath, suddenly lifting the windward ama, even at low speed with small waves in relatively protected water (S.F. bay).  Given the mild conditions, I was stunned at the unpleasant effect caused by the rounded bottom vs. a pointed "V" profile.

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Here is a video are two videos of the damage on Gitana:

 

 

Edited by Chasm
2 videos
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29 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

That ultimately will be the undoing of French offshore sailing dominance in due course.

That's quite a bold statement, Jack.  I can't see how treating this race as a warm up diminishes its significance for any skipper in any way? What do you mean?

AT has a good chance of wining the Class and VG.  But what other country in your view could suddenly dominate offshore racing?

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For fuck sakes, Josse don't be a pussy and keep going

No need for fucking bows, just stay up on the foils

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1 hour ago, yl75 said:

What is worrying is that Josse broke his ama (side hull ?) when in reaching conditions, not close tack at all, not sure about the sea state and swell direction, but this should clearly not be out of a round the world record attempt conditions enveloppe at all.

And on the vacation the Gitana team guy sounded really quite surprised (especially since it is the windward float that broke) and saying they had no explanation at this point.

As to Sodebo, quite an "old" boat now, maybe some failure points not noticed ..

Given the number of boat-care people employed year long and the huge budget, I guess this would be a BIG slip-up .......

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Needs another bulkhead for the RTW race. ;)  Perhaps a bow shaped one. :D

Or break the other ama off and tape Hydroptère over Gitana. (keep the 17) :ph34r: B)

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59 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

Thanks guys to answering my question and please correct me if I'm wrong here.

As we sit here posting relative VMG numbers and pondering the cause behind bits breaking off and weather routing options by the minute in a trans ocean race that doesn't finish tomorrow. Maybe we have some time for absorbing a helicopter view of this race from a fan and grey haired person who has spent his life in this arena, so please endulge me.

First who ever crosses the finish line in this race regardless of platform is the winner and their finish  time is recorded as breaking the record or not. That was and is the rule of race since 1978  or 40 years ago.

The best example was the inaugral race which QBF just mentioned up thread as follows.

What QBF doesn't mention is that little 31' tri in this inaugral race 40 years ago beat the favoured boat over the line by minutes, a dirty great fucking 70' mono.

That moment along with the preceding years like Tabarly's giant alloy Tri Pen Duick IV in the 1968 OSTAR (that collided with a cargo ship and he had to sail back to England) and his same boat which won the 1972 OSTAR with Alain Colas. The same boat which was lost at sea with Colas during the first Route du Rhum and the very same race won by that little timber 31' Tri 40 years ago was arguably a pivotal point that defined French sailing in light displacement stuff.

So we essentialy have today from your replies the development classes be they Ultimes (which I have no idea about, hence my question) and IMOCA's (which I know), that both classes by our joint acknowledgement now treat this race as a means to an end to something greater, do they not?

By extension this means the top two classes in this race, important as it is don't give a flying fuck about it. Yet the class which underpins race numbers being the Class 40's collectively have arrived spending less than a handfull of Ultimes programmes. That is before even factoring in the IMOCA cost programmes.

By any objective assessment something is not right and in fact now flying in the face of the genisus to this race 40 years ago, where the French took it and have owned it ever since that hapless Canadian won the first one. History shows great empires are formed, they consolidate, get complacent and then they die.

My view is that the the Ultimes and IMOCA community simply treat this iconic race now as a warm up within their own bubble of self importance. That ultimately will be the undoing of French offshore sailing dominance in due course.

Watch this space....it might not be a Canadian in a 31' timber shitbox that upsets the applecart, but be assured he won't be French.

Own bubble of self importance leads to complacency, does not it ? ;)

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51 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

.........................

By extension this means the top two classes in this race, important as it is don't give a flying fuck about it.

..........

By any objective assessment something is not right .....................

My view is that the the Ultimes and IMOCA community simply treat this iconic race now as a warm up within their own bubble of self importance. That ultimately will be the undoing of French offshore sailing dominance in due course.

Watch this space....it might not be a Canadian in a 31' timber shitbox that upsets the applecart, but be assured he won't be French.

Not too sure what you are getting at Jack. Just sounds like sour grapes from a non-French national to me.
I have friends sailing in all the classes, mostly Imoca, Ultime and Class 40, and whilst I don't know much about the Rhum Multies and the 50 Tris, I see no sign of any applecart upset in the future related to this race or French sailing generally, regardless of who wins what. And to suggest anyone involved in this race, especially those sailing in the top two classes "don't give a flying fuck about it" is something I take issue with you on. That is not the impression given by anyone.
I guess you just didn't come to Saint Malo last week to talk with people and assess the ambience first hand like I did.

 

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1 hour ago, Rasputin22 said:

You seem to have confused the 'little 31' timber tri' with HAPPY.

 

1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

No I haven't..Happy a later sister to Olympus who won the first RdR.

Sorry for humping your leg Ras but a reminder off that 40 year historical throwback to the inaugral race. Peyron was in Mini's at that time and got the race record last outing in Banque Populaire VII in 2014. That spread of years is awesome in any sport including snooker.

Yet in 2016 he went retro (mid his AC campaign) going in the Single-Handed Trans-Atlantic Race on Pen Duick II, the same boat sailed by Éric Tabarly to win the same race in 1964.

For this Route du Rhum's he is on "Happy". The irony being this should be Happy's second outing but when Armel Le Cléac'h got injured last edition he took over Banque Populaire VII and now has the race record.

If this vid is not what anyone imagines a French sailing legend deserves to end up doing with his life, living by the sea walking to his boat at low tide to tinker before going racing, then you have no fucking soul.

 

 

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44 minutes ago, staysail said:

Not too sure what you are getting at Jack. Just sounds like sour grapes from a non-French national to me.

Try comprehending what I'm saying before launching into the national card where I'm pro French sailing and have been for longer than you have been on this earth. I don't mind alternative opinion but you are just plain fucking lazy putting yours out being a "fuck off I live here argument" and maybe exactly what I'm getting at.

If you can't cop a considered outsider looking in perspective for discussion, well your loss and I shouldn't have bothered.

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Sodebo and Gitana are out but Remade-Use it Again is not.

Apparently Romain Pilliard is just in a no wind bubble. So it's not half the fleet, only 2/5 of the fast ones.

Le Cléac'h come back after the pit-stop is remarkable.

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Without being out there to see the sea state - it must be pretty challenging if all the Multi50s are running behind the leading imocas. 

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

Thanks guys to answering my question and please correct me if I'm wrong here.

As we sit here posting relative VMG numbers and pondering the cause behind bits breaking off and weather routing options by the minute in a trans ocean race that doesn't finish tomorrow. Maybe we have some time for absorbing a helicopter view of this race from a fan and grey haired person who has spent his life in this arena, so please endulge me.

First who ever crosses the finish line in this race regardless of platform is the winner and their finish  time is recorded as breaking the record or not. That was and is the rule of race since 1978  or 40 years ago.

The best example was the inaugral race which QBF just mentioned up thread as follows.

What QBF doesn't mention is that little 31' tri in this inaugral race 40 years ago beat the favoured boat over the line by minutes, a dirty great fucking 70' mono.

That moment along with the preceding years like Tabarly's giant alloy Tri Pen Duick IV in the 1968 OSTAR (that collided with a cargo ship and he had to sail back to England) and his same boat which won the 1972 OSTAR with Alain Colas. The same boat which was lost at sea with Colas during the first Route du Rhum and the very same race won by that little timber 31' Tri 40 years ago was arguably a pivotal point that defined French sailing in light displacement stuff.

So we essentialy have today from your replies the development classes be they Ultimes (which I have no idea about, hence my question) and IMOCA's (which I know), that both classes by our joint acknowledgement now treat this race as a means to an end to something greater, do they not?

By extension this means the top two classes in this race, important as it is don't give a flying fuck about it. Yet the class which underpins race numbers being the Class 40's collectively have arrived spending less than a handfull of Ultimes programmes. That is before even factoring in the IMOCA cost programmes.

By any objective assessment something is not right and in fact now flying in the face of the genisus to this race 40 years ago, where the French took it and have owned it ever since that hapless Canadian won the first one. History shows great empires are formed, they consolidate, get complacent and then they die.

My view is that the the Ultimes and IMOCA community simply treat this iconic race now as a warm up within their own bubble of self importance. That ultimately will be the undoing of French offshore sailing dominance in due course.

Watch this space....it might not be a Canadian in a 31' timber shitbox that upsets the applecart, but be assured he won't be French.

 

Not sure where to start  ...

For the Imocas, I think you are right in saying that they are optimised for the VG, and not for the Route du Rhum, and that the VG is the ultimate trophy in this class.

However it does not mean at all that the RdR is considered by the Imoca class (and even more importantly by the team sponsors), as just a "warm up run" towards the VG, it is not the case at all. Plus with the trade winds run after getting out of Biscay and Azores, I'm not even sure a "RdR optimized Imoca" would be that different from a "VG optimized Imoca".

As to the Ultims, the push started more or less with the no limit "The race" organized by Peyron (Bruno not Loick) in 2000, which had only one edition, and by all the Jules Vernes trophy attempts (so the clear "round the world" course in the DNA).

The "classe Ultime" appeared first in the 2010 Route du Rhum (as a category "bigger than everything else", not a real class with a committee, and still the case for the RdR), before a real "class" was defined in 2015 by the collectif Ultim (max length 32 m, max beam 23 m).

But if somebody had wished to take Spindrift 2 this year in the "ultim class" for de Route du Rhum, he could have, the "classe ultime" in the RdR is in fact not officially a class race, whereas "Brest Oceans" will be.

And here also, the victory in the RdR ultime class clearly stands on itself appart from the future "Brest Oceans".

As to the creation of the Route du Rhum, one of the key reason was that the organisers of the Ostar limited the boat length to 56 feet after the 1976 OSTAR where Colas competed with the 72 meters (256 feet) club Méditerranée, which created a lot of controversy (rightly so I would say, and on top of it he was injured at the time), but this limit also pissed of a lot of French skippers. And Tabarly won the 76 Ostar with the Pen Duick VI (the 72 feet mono built for the first whitbread), Colas second but had a penalty so Mike Birch was real second on the 31 tri "the third turtle".

 

As to the first route du Rhum, Mike Birch didn't win on a 31' tri but on a 36 one (of which acapella and happy are sister ships/copies).

 

So where does that brings us ? Not sure !! :)

Clearly the "everybody in the same class" of the original Ostar and route du rhum  had a lot of charm, especially with small multis being able to beat big monos.

But then what ? The whole thing became more professional and I think it was difficult to escape some class/categories rules.

As to whether the "french ocean racing scene" is headed for demise due to the RdR not being taken seriously by the Imocas and Ultims, not sure I understand the message, and I don't think it is true at all. That is, I don't think the fact that the RdR is not taken seriously by these classes is true. But whether the "french ocean racing scene" is headed for demise or not, that is a total different question (depending a lot on where the whole economy is going ...)

One thing for sure, it survived the demise of the Orma 60 (which in a way had the RdR as their ultimate trophy, and the 2002 RdR was the trigger in this demise), and it also survived the failure of the Mod70 class.

About the Ultim class (as defined by the "collectif Ultim"), the success is not guarenteed yet for sure, even though at least two new boats are currently being built : new macif and new Sodebo, and if a "round the would capable multi class" can exist, the Ultim32/23 is clearly the only current candidate. 

But then again, not sure what is your key point ;) .

 

 

 

 

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59 minutes ago, yl75 said:

...But then again, not sure what is your key point ;) .

Great post. My key point is there are large disconnects even at the top end of sailing between the bottom and the top.

The measure of that disconnect is money, something really easy to measure. My post knowing zip about the big multi's and asking a question which you kindly replied to was I can't get my head around so few boats sucking up so much capital and promotional resources that nearly equal putting the entire race fleet on the water. I'm the odd man out as most see that as a good thing.

It is literally one of now; I hope one these big fuckers can finish to justify the cash for splash. Is that spectacle really worth it in terms of our sport surviving, let alone flourishing? Sailing is no different to any endevour, it feeds off a fixed pool of opportunity where that pool is then divided. It seems to me that division is out of whack.

I'm only asking the question, and while some may jump down my throat as being anti French, the fact is they are the only ones investing this capital at the big multi pointy end.

Does that automatically make it right? By any objective measure something is not right, or at the very least needs to be the subject of conversation and not just ignored, but which many prefer.

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

Sorry for humping your leg Ras but a reminder off that 40 year historical throwback to the inaugral race. Peyron was in Mini's at that time and got the race record last outing in Banque Populaire VII in 2014. That spread of years is awesome in any sport including snooker.

Yet in 2016 he went retro (mid his AC campaign) going in the Single-Handed Trans-Atlantic Race on Pen Duick II, the same boat sailed by Éric Tabarly to win the same race in 1964.

For this Route du Rhum's he is on "Happy". The irony being this should be Happy's second outing but when Armel Le Cléac'h got injured last edition he took over Banque Populaire VII and now has the race record.

If this vid is not what anyone imagines a French sailing legend deserves to end up doing with his life, living by the sea walking to his boat at low tide to tinker before going racing, then you have no fucking soul.

 

 

You have to buy me a beer before you can hump my leg Jack! I went back and read your full post about the 31' timber tri and not just the quote that someone else had used which sort of took your comment out of context. My bad but believe me, I am as big a fan of Newick and his little MFW (Miracle Fiber Wood) tri's and equally a fan of Walter Greene and his boats and maybe even more a fan of Loick. I'm rooting for Loick myself but had hoped that Jack Petith would come out of hiding with his old Newick Native and go head to head with Loick in a Golden Oldies class for this race. And imagine if ETN could have made it this time in his old battlewagon UP MY SLEEVE!

Just for the record, that SketchUp 3d model thay Proa posted above of HAPPY seems to have actually been done by Loick! I downloaded it and had hoped to import it into my Rhino3D software but Trimble seems to have screwed up the file formats for SketchUp since they bought it out.

image.thumb.png.35b641b2b169aca3d9da45a39d3bda0d.png

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So charal as made a tempoary fix, regained the boat's control, hezding for Brest at 7knts, a boat with is shore team is on its way to stay next to him.

Sounds like a probable retirement

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19 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Great post. My key point is there are large disconnects even at the top end of sailing between the bottom and the top.

The measure of that disconnect is money, something really easy to measure. My post knowing zip about the big multi's and asking a question which you kindly replied to was I can't get my head around so few boats sucking up so much capital and promotional resources that nearly equal putting the entire race fleet on the water. I'm the odd man out as most see that as a good thing.

It is literally one of now; I hope one these big fuckers can finish to justify the cash for splash. Is that spectacle really worth it in terms of our sport surviving, let alone flourishing? Sailing is no different to any endevour, it feeds off a fixed pool of opportunity where that pool is then divided. It seems to me that division is out of whack.

I'm only asking the question, and while some may jump down my throat as being anti French, the fact is they are the only ones investing this capital at the big multi pointy end.

Does that automatically make it right? By any objective measure something is not right, or at the very least needs to be the subject of conversation and not just ignored, but which many prefer.


I think the diff might be that there's sort of an informal hierarchy of sponsorship in the French scene. People who've had success in the 6.5 might graduate to Figaro or Class 40, then imoca - and if they win the VG, move on to the top multihulls because the class is wide open for development. 

The sponsors attached to these top guys are diff than someone looking to break into the Class 40. It probably doesn't hurt the imocas, considering how many new imocas are consistently being commissioned or refit?

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Try comprehending what I'm saying before launching into the national card where I'm pro French sailing and have been for longer than you have been on this earth. I don't mind alternative opinion but you are just plain fucking lazy putting yours out being a "fuck off I live here argument" and maybe exactly what I'm getting at.

If you can't cop a considered outsider looking in perspective for discussion, well your loss and I shouldn't have bothered.

I don't live in France but I do visit race venues and talk to sailors that do these races Jack. Sure that means spending quite a bit of time in France, but I am not one of them. And it seems I am not alone wrt your post.

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Brian Hancock again. Just got round to checking the FP. Why does he write things down when he gets it wrong? If he does not know, why does he write, and why doesn't SA check what it puts out on its FP?

Quote from his 3rd Nov screed "...Samantha Davies who finished fifth in the 2008/09 Vendée Globe."

She actually finished the 2008/9 Vendee Globe in 3rd place many hours ahead of Guillemot who finished in 4th place as I remember the occasion.
She was pushed down to 4th only because both she and Guillemot had diverted from racing to stand by Yann Elies who had a badly broken leg, and the organizers awarded him just enough more time to compensate than they gave to Davies which enabled him to snatch her podium finish by a matter of minutes.

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8 minutes ago, staysail said:

Brian Hancock again. Just got round to checking the FP. Why does he write things down when he gets it wrong? If he does not know, why does he write, and why doesn't SA check what it puts out on its FP?

Quote from his 3rd Nov screed "...Samantha Davies who finished fifth in the 2008/09 Vendée Globe."

She actually finished the 2008/9 Vendee Globe in 3rd place many hours ahead of Guillemot who finished in 4th place as I remember the occasion.
She was pushed down to 4th only because both she and Guillemot had diverted from racing to stand by Yann Elies who had a badly broken leg, and the organizers awarded him just enough more time to compensate than they gave to Davies which enabled him to snatch her podium finish by a matter of minutes.

There’s a reason why most ignore what he writes........ please don’t quote his drivel. Thank you. 

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28 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

Just for the record, that SketchUp 3d model thay Proa posted above of HAPPY seems to have actually been done by Loick! I downloaded it and had hoped to import it into my Rhino3D software but Trimble seems to have screwed up the file formats for SketchUp since they bought it out.

image.thumb.png.35b641b2b169aca3d9da45a39d3bda0d.png

My post about this CAD model was in a different thread:

https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model/u555b2bf2-ddf2-4ce8-8d23-d18b77ca0357/LOICK-PEYRON-TRIMARAN-HAPPY

I still can't imagine how or why anyone created that CAD model in SketchUp, let alone Loïck Peyron himself!

Sadly, my version of SketchUp Pro expired years ago but I recently discovered that the latest free version is entirely a web app and it works GREAT!
https://app.sketchup.com/app

It opens this Happy CAD file just fine but the export options all require an upgrade to SketchUp SHOP at US $119/year, or the PRO version for US $695 .  :(

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12 minutes ago, staysail said:

Brian Hancock again. Just got round to checking the FP. Why does he write things down when he gets it wrong? If he does not know, why does he write, and why doesn't SA check what it puts out on its FP?

Quote from his 3rd Nov screed "...Samantha Davies who finished fifth in the 2008/09 Vendée Globe."

She actually finished the 2008/9 Vendee Globe in 3rd place many hours ahead of Guillemot who finished in 4th place as I remember the occasion.
She was pushed down to 4th only because both she and Guillemot had diverted from racing to stand by Yann Elies who had a badly broken leg, and the organizers awarded him just enough more time to compensate than they gave to Davies which enabled him to snatch her podium finish by a matter of minutes.

Cos he crewed on a boat with someone famous once - didn't you know?  - he must have mentioned it this week.

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9 minutes ago, mad said:

There’s a reason why most ignore what he writes........ please don’t quote his drivel. Thank you. 

Sorry Mad, wont do it again.

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44 minutes ago, Miffy said:


I think the diff might be that there's sort of an informal hierarchy of sponsorship in the French scene. People who've had success in the 6.5 might graduate to Figaro or Class 40, then imoca - and if they win the VG, move on to the top multihulls because the class is wide open for development. 

The sponsors attached to these top guys are diff than someone looking to break into the Class 40. It probably doesn't hurt the imocas, considering how many new imocas are consistently being commissioned or refit?

 

Yes it is clearly the case, and even up to the IMOCA class and even Ultims, the sponsors are in fact usually not very big companies (not CAC40 ones).

I'm not an expert at all in the domain, but looking at it, some CAC40 companies went into sailing sponsorship but it usually didn't last very long (like Safran, Orange, or Veolia), whereas you have all these SME (small or medium enterprises) doing sailing sponsorship and that are often much more faithfull (like Sodebo, PRB, IDEC, Arkema), and in fact also often "regional sponsors".

And you could say Macif is quite a big company (6 billion € revenues) but quite far from Axa (100 billions).

I don't know why this sailing sponsorship scene exist in France, especially from SMEs, and not so much in other countries. I know there are some fiscal incentives to sponsorship compared to  more classical "communication actions" (like TV commercials, press or web ads and the like), but I guess this might also exist in other countries ?

But clearly I don't think the Ultims are "sucking up" a "communication budget pie" from the other classes. (and although I don't have the actual figures right now, these budget are still lower than an AC budget or even a VOR one I think). And if these companies are doing it, it clearly means that the returns (ROI) are ok or better than classical communication.

Below a Mike Birch interview in le Monde a few days ago :

https://abonnes.lemonde.fr/voile/article/2018/11/04/mike-birch-on-peut-regretter-qu-il-y-ait-tant-d-argent-dans-la-voile_5378618_1616887.html?

Where he says that :

"Il l’admet toutefois : « Maintenant, on ne pourrait plus gagner avec un bateau comme celui-là et dans ces conditions. » « Il y a de plus en plus de très gros bateaux très technologiques, c’est de plus en plus cher », relève-t-il. Pour le déplorer : « C’est dommage, mais même si on ne peut pas arrêter le progrès, on peut regretter qu’il y ait tant d’argent dans la voile ! »"

(now one couldn't win with Olympus, (even if he consider it the "perfect boat"), there are more and more big technological boats, and even if one cannot stop progress, one can regret that there is so much money in sailing !)

But also saying :

"Il regrette également que la Route du Rhum reste très franco-française. « Par exemple, chez moi, en Colombie-Britannique, personne ne connaît cette course. A l’est, on la connaît déjà un peu plus, mais ce n’est finalement pas très connu », déplore-t-il."

(so he regrets that this race is so "Franco-French", that nobody knows about it in British Columbia, even if on the East coast a bit more known)

 

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19.8 kt, 8.7 kt is average over the last hour.
Looks like a tack.

 

Alex has also tacked slow boat style. 7.1 kt over the last hour. Will get slightly more wind soon. No idea if that was the plan.
Charal limping back as written above, 4myplanet (Alexia Barrier) is moving back too. Ari Huusela back on track. (He needs the qualification miles.)

 

RM is back in place 20 and up to 9kts average. 81nm behind the leader he is still leading the vintage fleet. Next vintage Class 40 is place 33, 144nm behind first. Not bad.
4 Class 40 in port, ~4 heading back, 1 heading back out. 

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1 hour ago, staysail said:

I don't live in France but I do visit race venues and talk to sailors that do these races Jack. Sure that means spending quite a bit of time in France, but I am not one of them. 

Well that simply alters your argument basis being one of living and sailing there and I know best, to you now being just a tourist and speechless. I'm glad we flushed that out.

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51 minutes ago, yl75 said:

 

Yes it is clearly the case, and even up to the IMOCA class and even Ultims, the sponsors are in fact usually not very big companies (not CAC40 ones).

I'm not an expert at all in the domain, but looking at it, some CAC40 companies went into sailing sponsorship but it usually didn't last very long (like Safran, Orange, or Veolia), whereas you have all these SME (small or medium enterprises) doing sailing sponsorship and that are often much more faithfull (like Sodebo, PRB, IDEC, Arkema), and in fact also often "regional sponsors".

And you could say Macif is quite a big company (6 billion € revenues) but quite far from Axa (100 billions).

I don't know why this sailing sponsorship scene exist in France, especially from SMEs, and not so much in other countries. I know there are some fiscal incentives to sponsorship compared to  more classical "communication actions" (like TV commercials, press or web ads and the like), but I guess this might also exist in other countries ?

But clearly I don't think the Ultims are "sucking up" a "communication budget pie" from the other classes. (and although I don't have the actual figures right now, these budget are still lower than an AC budget or even a VOR one I think). And if these companies are doing it, it clearly means that the returns (ROI) are ok or better than classical communication.

Below a Mike Birch interview in le Monde a few days ago :

https://abonnes.lemonde.fr/voile/article/2018/11/04/mike-birch-on-peut-regretter-qu-il-y-ait-tant-d-argent-dans-la-voile_5378618_1616887.html?

Where he says that :

"Il l’admet toutefois : « Maintenant, on ne pourrait plus gagner avec un bateau comme celui-là et dans ces conditions. » « Il y a de plus en plus de très gros bateaux très technologiques, c’est de plus en plus cher », relève-t-il. Pour le déplorer : « C’est dommage, mais même si on ne peut pas arrêter le progrès, on peut regretter qu’il y ait tant d’argent dans la voile ! »"

(now one couldn't win with Olympus, (even if he consider it the "perfect boat"), there are more and more big technological boats, and even if one cannot stop progress, one can regret that there is so much money in sailing !)

But also saying :

"Il regrette également que la Route du Rhum reste très franco-française. « Par exemple, chez moi, en Colombie-Britannique, personne ne connaît cette course. A l’est, on la connaît déjà un peu plus, mais ce n’est finalement pas très connu », déplore-t-il."

(so he regrets that this race is so "Franco-French", that nobody knows about it in British Columbia, even if on the East coast a bit more known)

 

I it's not true that NOBODY knows about the Route du Rum here in BC but he's right, it's not mainstream.

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https://www.routedurhum.com/en/news/484

IMOCA race analysis by French solo offshore veteran Marc Guillemot

“The sailors are experiencing a rough start to the race. It’s not easy for anyone. They have been kept busy for the last 10 days in Saint-Malo. Even if from time to time, they manage to get away from all that, tiredness takes its toll and some were not at 100% of their capacity when they set sail. That can cost them dearly at the start of the race, seeing as there are complicated weather conditions.

Since yesterday, I have been closely following Alex Thomson’s trajectory. He was the only one to go to the north of the traffic separation scheme off Ushant. Other skippers may well have considered that option. They needed to take a decision once they had reached Bréhat.

Aiming for the north of the TSS involved hoisting the spinnaker instead of the gennaker, and forcing them to carry out extra manoeuvres. With the worry of having to bring down the sail quickly if the wind got up and the danger of finding themselves entering the TSS… I put myself in the position of Alex’s rivals…

We are sailing well. We can luff up with the sail we have and instead of heading to the north of the TSS, we’re tempted to go south. I cannot judge their choices, as it is far too easy to do that from ashore with your feet up. Everyone follows their route depending on how they are feeling, how the boat is and how well prepared they are.

Alex Thomson’s fine strategic play

In any case, Alex pulled off a good strategic stroke. He took a risk by moving away from the direct route, went on the attack and kept going all the way. Today, he is reaping the benefits of his investment. Hugo Boss was the first to pass to the north of the current low-pressure system, and in particular, he is well placed to deal with the next. Before the day is out, he’ll pick up a southwesterly wind and shift to port tack, which will mean that he is ahead of the big low. He will be able to make headway southwards and westwards and in his choice of route will have more freedom than his rivals, who are sailing further east. If he needs to come around slightly in the heavy weather, he will have plenty of room without having to worry about getting too close to the coast of Spain. To sum up, the further east you are, the less favourable the position to deal with the low.

As a sailor stuck in front of my computer screen, I’m watching this Route du Rhum with a great deal of interest. I’m watching in particular the close fight that is going between Vincent Riou and Paul Meilhat for second place. I can see too that Alan Roura has had a fantastic start to his race. It’s nice to see that the older boats with some determined and hard-working sailors can keep up with the best in these tough conditions.

"Fighting against mountains of water"

Conditions are tougher for the leaders, starting with Alex Thomson. Sailing at 20 knots in such heavy seas is no easy matter. I can imagine that Hugo Boss is under the water with Alex inside in his foulies, ready to leap outside if necessary. Given the conditions, he is probably sailing with two reefs in the mainsail and the J3 headsail. Sailing like this requires you to keep cool and remain focused.

In the coming hours, conditions will be getting more complicated for everyone. Until they cross the line from the Azores-to-Lisbon, the sailors will be at war, fighting against mountains of water. They are going to have to do their best with the boat and look after themselves, putting the rankings to one side until the race can get going again.

The important thing here is getting out of the area of low pressure with a boat that can still perform well. It’s going to be hard, but they need to hold on in there. In the IMOCA class, we’re looking at professionals, who know how to deal with these conditions. But they nevertheless need to pay attention...”

Marc Guillemot

 

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Funny, spent a month in  Brittany this past September and October - Went to Lorient and La Forêt-Fouesnant. Met Gabart, saw Macif, Banq Populaire, Gitana, the imcoas etc. Bought the Route du Rhum magazine and I am from BC. 

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44 minutes ago, southerncross said:

https://www.routedurhum.com/en/news/484

IMOCA race analysis by French solo offshore veteran Marc Guillemot

“The sailors are experiencing a rough start to the race. It’s not easy for anyone. They have been kept busy for the last 10 days in Saint-Malo. Even if from time to time, they manage to get away from all that, tiredness takes its toll and some were not at 100% of their capacity when they set sail. That can cost them dearly at the start of the race, seeing as there are complicated weather conditions.

Since yesterday, I have been closely following Alex Thomson’s trajectory. He was the only one to go to the north of the traffic separation scheme off Ushant. Other skippers may well have considered that option. They needed to take a decision once they had reached Bréhat.

Aiming for the north of the TSS involved hoisting the spinnaker instead of the gennaker, and forcing them to carry out extra manoeuvres. With the worry of having to bring down the sail quickly if the wind got up and the danger of finding themselves entering the TSS… I put myself in the position of Alex’s rivals…

We are sailing well. We can luff up with the sail we have and instead of heading to the north of the TSS, we’re tempted to go south. I cannot judge their choices, as it is far too easy to do that from ashore with your feet up. Everyone follows their route depending on how they are feeling, how the boat is and how well prepared they are.

Alex Thomson’s fine strategic play

In any case, Alex pulled off a good strategic stroke. He took a risk by moving away from the direct route, went on the attack and kept going all the way. Today, he is reaping the benefits of his investment. Hugo Boss was the first to pass to the north of the current low-pressure system, and in particular, he is well placed to deal with the next. Before the day is out, he’ll pick up a southwesterly wind and shift to port tack, which will mean that he is ahead of the big low. He will be able to make headway southwards and westwards and in his choice of route will have more freedom than his rivals, who are sailing further east. If he needs to come around slightly in the heavy weather, he will have plenty of room without having to worry about getting too close to the coast of Spain. To sum up, the further east you are, the less favourable the position to deal with the low.

As a sailor stuck in front of my computer screen, I’m watching this Route du Rhum with a great deal of interest. I’m watching in particular the close fight that is going between Vincent Riou and Paul Meilhat for second place. I can see too that Alan Roura has had a fantastic start to his race. It’s nice to see that the older boats with some determined and hard-working sailors can keep up with the best in these tough conditions.

"Fighting against mountains of water"

Conditions are tougher for the leaders, starting with Alex Thomson. Sailing at 20 knots in such heavy seas is no easy matter. I can imagine that Hugo Boss is under the water with Alex inside in his foulies, ready to leap outside if necessary. Given the conditions, he is probably sailing with two reefs in the mainsail and the J3 headsail. Sailing like this requires you to keep cool and remain focused.

In the coming hours, conditions will be getting more complicated for everyone. Until they cross the line from the Azores-to-Lisbon, the sailors will be at war, fighting against mountains of water. They are going to have to do their best with the boat and look after themselves, putting the rankings to one side until the race can get going again.

The important thing here is getting out of the area of low pressure with a boat that can still perform well. It’s going to be hard, but they need to hold on in there. In the IMOCA class, we’re looking at professionals, who know how to deal with these conditions. But they nevertheless need to pay attention...”

Marc Guillemot

 

Now if this was on the front page!!?? 

I’d be there. 

But we get BH instead. :wacko:

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3 minutes ago, mad said:

 

But we get BH instead. :wacko:

You get what you pay for...

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3 minutes ago, oioi said:

You get what you pay for...

Good point. as much we gave him shit, Clean did provide some good footage at times,  

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My pic..... Vincent PRB...  Alex HB (if he doesn't break)..... Paul SMA.. (Absolute giant killer on old technology) 

BTW ... regardless of money and sponsors ...and the sport.....  the Ultimes are awesome... what i would give for ride... EDR, Macif and Bank Pop are in a league of their own that was evident at the start due to full foiling and the skippers are standouts of all the boats... Francis Joyon at his age is superman

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4 hours ago, QBF said:

No, sorry, the capsize off New Zealand was a year before, in 2008, and the breakage was on the leeward float, a different accident. I was talking about the following Jules Verne attempt, in 2009, which ended with a broken windward float close to Captetown.

https://www.yachtingworld.com/news/groupama-damaged-and-heading-for-cape-town-9841

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Since I'm in BC and talk about the RdR and French sailing incessantly to all and sundry I'm doing my bit! What actually is shocking as a Canadian is how important Mike Birch is in France.  He is constantly referred to by the racers as a key figure and 1978 as a key moment in kicking off the entire multihull thing. Clearly the massive monohull concept was in vogue at the time and in retrospect his win in a much cheaper and smaller boat was both visionary and pointed towards a more realistic ultra high performance sailing model, to professional sailing's benefit. So he should be more famous here but it's really impressive how famous he is there.

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The other leading IMOCA also tacked. Now just hold on onto the ride and find out who guessed right.

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8 hours ago, yl75 said:

What is worrying is that Josse broke his ama (side hull ?) when in reaching conditions, not close tack at all, not sure about the sea state and swell direction, but this should clearly not be out of a round the world record attempt conditions enveloppe at all.

And on the vacation the Gitana team guy sounded really quite surprised (especially since it is the windward float that broke) and saying they had no explanation at this point.

As to Sodebo, quite an "old" boat now, maybe some failure points not noticed ..

reminds me of team philips failure mode. May be too much cantilever...

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4 hours ago, staysail said:

Brian Hancock again. Just got round to checking the FP. Why does he write things down when he gets it wrong? If he does not know, why does he write, and why doesn't SA check what it puts out on its FP?

Quote from his 3rd Nov screed "...Samantha Davies who finished fifth in the 2008/09 Vendée Globe."

She actually finished the 2008/9 Vendee Globe in 3rd place many hours ahead of Guillemot who finished in 4th place as I remember the occasion.
She was pushed down to 4th only because both she and Guillemot had diverted from racing to stand by Yann Elies who had a badly broken leg, and the organizers awarded him just enough more time to compensate than they gave to Davies which enabled him to snatch her podium finish by a matter of minutes.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are 123 competitors, not 125 

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1 minute ago, NautiGirl said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are 123 competitors, not 125 

Let's just say 124, plus or minus 1, or maybe two.  Or not.  It's a subtle difference.

Is New Scotland anything like New Caledonia?  Do you have really smart crows?  

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1 minute ago, Left Shift said:

Let's just say 124, plus or minus 1, or maybe two.  Or not.  It's a subtle difference.

Is New Scotland anything like New Caledonia?  Do you have really smart crows?  

We have brilliant crows. I used to live next door to a roost. Those birds amaze me.

No clue about New Caledonia.

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3 hours ago, D Wayne G said:

I it's not true that NOBODY knows about the Route du Rum here in BC but he's right, it's not mainstream.

East coast here, and I'd argue it's not terribly well known here either. I don't think it's a geography thing.

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I read 123 somewhere. Sloppy to get that wrong. Was just looking at Windyty; holy smokes it's gonna get even sportier in the Bay of Biscay on Tuesday. 

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2 hours ago, yl75 said:

From the French interview: Sébastien Josse believes that he did not hit anything, simply, he was in 28 to 31 knots of wind, with 3.5 m swell. So hard to maintain flight, but usually when there is a "landing", the boat slows down and picks up speed quickly again. Here it slowed down really hard and he thinks the front of the ama "simply folded"...

He also states that when you hit water at 80 kph, it is hard to tell if you are hitting something in the water, or just water acting like a wall... so he cannot be sure 100% that he did not hit anything.

I remember seeing some videos of Groupama 3 in heavy seas and each time the windward ama was coming out of the water, the bow was visibly vibrating sideways... The release of the side loads from the waves, once airborne, would induce that vibration every time.

Now you do the same thing, but at 1.5 times the speed, meaning 2.25 times the loads... 

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Makes me wonder if they put some cameras on the boat for just such a moment. Not necessarily for public release but for internal use.

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1 hour ago, NautiGirl said:

We have brilliant crows. I used to live next door to a roost. Those birds amaze me.

No clue about New Caledonia.

Means New Scotland in Latin or some such.

French colony, middle of the Pacific, NW of Australia.  On my list of out of the way places to visit by boat.  

Has very smart crows.

https://onekindplanet.org/animal-behaviour/tool-use/tool-use-in-new-caledonian-crows/noumea-46958.jpg.74105aec4139dcb9759ca13c0df5d8c3.jpg

th.jpeg.7420b3fb40417bfa57bc743109ed10d9.jpegnew-caledonia-63.JPG.7a821102613723f36040e6d6a6053bf4.JPG

 

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Beautiful!

Nouvelle-Écosse/Nova Scotia/New Scotland has rich French roots. 

I do love visiting French protectorates. It's fascinating to me how they maintain their French culture even while blending with the regional "flavours" if you will.  (I've got trips to Martinique and Guadeloupe coming up in the winter, and hopefully a trek to St.Pierre et Miquelon in the coming summer. ) I might have to add New Caledonia to my must visit list.

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41 minutes ago, NautiGirl said:

Beautiful!

Nouvelle-Écosse/Nova Scotia/New Scotland has rich French roots. 

I do love visiting French protectorates. It's fascinating to me how they maintain their French culture even while blending with the regional "flavours" if you will.  (I've got trips to Martinique and Guadeloupe coming up in the winter, and hopefully a trek to St.Pierre et Miquelon in the coming summer. ) I might have to add New Caledonia to my must visit list.

Do it soon

http://theconversation.com/new-caledonia-votes-to-stay-with-france-this-time-but-independence-supporters-take-heart-106329

 

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4 hours ago, Foiling Optimist said:

Since I'm in BC and talk about the RdR and French sailing incessantly to all and sundry I'm doing my bit! What actually is shocking as a Canadian is how important Mike Birch is in France.  He is constantly referred to by the racers as a key figure and 1978 as a key moment in kicking off the entire multihull thing. Clearly the massive monohull concept was in vogue at the time and in retrospect his win in a much cheaper and smaller boat was both visionary and pointed towards a more realistic ultra high performance sailing model, to professional sailing's benefit. So he should be more famous here but it's really impressive how famous he is there.

I do pretty much the same, I send people to look at the RDR site, and tell them about M.Birch, our very famous Canadian multihull sailor.  

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What has happened to Banque Pop?

and Remade looks too be drifting....

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Damn, loaded the tracker after 24 hours and it shows carnage. Tough luck for a bunch of boats, especially galling for Josse after all those lovely foiling videos.

And Nauti, how on earth did you get to -1826, that’s quite an accomplishment!

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Does anyone know why Rail Meat and Dragon did a slow loop-the-loop?  I don't think he hit a mark......

Hope there is nothing wrong.

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9 minutes ago, D Wayne G said:

Banque Pop drifting right back down her track. That can't be good.

 

Ever tacked a 100 foot trimaran by yourself? ;)

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9 minutes ago, Tunnel Rat said:

Does anyone know why Rail Meat and Dragon did a slow loop-the-loop?  I don't think he hit a mark......

Hope there is nothing wrong.

Every 30 hours he pulls a Crazy Ivan.  Next one will be to starboard.

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11 minutes ago, r.finn said:

Ever tacked a 100 foot trimaran by yourself? ;)

Looks like you are right Finn. He's up and at'm again.

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52 minutes ago, Tunnel Rat said:

Does anyone know why Rail Meat and Dragon did a slow loop-the-loop?  I don't think he hit a mark......

Hope there is nothing wrong.

It's common for short-handed in challenging conditions to avoid gybing and instead do a granny gybe - tack until you're on the new heading. 

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How do seas in Biscay compare to SO when they’re big?  I picture Biscay as the washing machine and SO the Big Push.

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3 hours ago, Laurent said:

From the French interview: Sébastien Josse believes that he did not hit anything, simply, he was in 28 to 31 knots of wind, with 3.5 m swell. So hard to maintain flight, but usually when there is a "landing", the boat slows down and picks up speed quickly again. Here it slowed down really hard and he thinks the front of the ama "simply folded"...

He also states that when you hit water at 80 kph, it is hard to tell if you are hitting something in the water, or just water acting like a wall... so he cannot be sure 100% that he did not hit anything.

I remember seeing some videos of Groupama 3 in heavy seas and each time the windward ama was coming out of the water, the bow was visibly vibrating sideways... The release of the side loads from the waves, once airborne, would induce that vibration every time.

Now you do the same thing, but at 1.5 times the speed, meaning 2.25 times the loads... 

speed kills.

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13 hours ago, staysail said:

Not too sure what you are getting at Jack. Just sounds like sour grapes from a non-French national to me.
I have friends sailing in all the classes, mostly Imoca, Ultime and Class 40, and whilst I don't know much about the Rhum Multies and the 50 Tris, I see no sign of any applecart upset in the future related to this race or French sailing generally, regardless of who wins what. And to suggest anyone involved in this race, especially those sailing in the top two classes "don't give a flying fuck about it" is something I take issue with you on. That is not the impression given by anyone.
I guess you just didn't come to Saint Malo last week to talk with people and assess the ambience first hand like I did.

 

a pro spectator as well as a white knight.

keep us informed.

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I think I will give the future of sailing warbling a miss..don't even understand myself sometimes.

Damm shame about Sam Goodchild and "Narcos Mexico's" stick , great programme, great non Euro sponsor in Netflix. Hope this doesn't dampen their appetite.

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Everytime I check a sked another boat has failed in some way shape or form. The Rooted without Rum they should call this. Having said that so far Alex has kept his boat in tact, touch wood..Gabart can afford to cruise but Armel is coming. Riou is Alex's biggest threat IMO. Alex likes to invest in educated separation only time will tell as Riou runs his down slowly. 

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8 hours ago, Panoramix said:

reminds me of team philips failure mode. May be too much cantilever...

There was a lot more than just too much cantilever going on with Team Philips. 

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25 minutes ago, Cuffy said:

Has HB gone to far?? Any one run the routing on that?

Don't think so , he should be able to tack quite soon, and have better wind angle than the others.

 

Edit : he just tacked !

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22 minutes ago, Cuffy said:

Has HB gone to far?? Any one run the routing on that?

Just run one, course looks good for the next couple of hours. I have him dong another couple of NW sections before going west around the Azores before heeding from there directly towards Guadaloupe. Gives hm average winds of 20K and arriving 15th. probably earlier as  do not have an up to date set of polars for HB.

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1 hour ago, mad said:

There was a lot more than just too much cantilever going on with Team Philips. 

True, it was a nice concept design badly engineered but I remember them loosing a bow like this because they had underestimated the side loads. May be these foilers land back with a bit of leeway; enough to tear apart a hull bearing in mind the gigantic lever arm and the huge forces from water at speed.

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3 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

True, it was a nice concept design badly engineered but I remember them loosing a bow like this because they had underestimated the side loads. May be these foilers land back with a bit of leeway; enough to tear apart a hull bearing in mind the gigantic lever arm and the huge forces from water at speed.

Correct on all points, and yes it was a huge lever arm, approximately 50 - 60 feet

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