Sean

Black in America

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36 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

You forgot cops. 

If you need examples, I can provide them. 

I doubt you do. 

A couple craven white racists acting violently towards a black kid, repulsive as it is, is not indicative of endemic racism and hostility towards blacks by whites. The story is news precisely because it's uncommon. As social problems go, black on black and even black on white violence is much more serious.

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35 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

cops are more than willing to kill people who aren't resisting arrest.

Nah. It fucks up the cop's lives too.

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1 hour ago, Bus Driver said:

You know, sometimes it must get tiring to be treated as a second-class citizen because you have dark skin. 

Standing up, or sitting down, for what is right in a peaceful and non-violent way is covered in the 1st Amendment. 

Rosa Parks and the lunch counter protests spring to mind. 

Would you prefer they just suck it up and accept the discrimination?

You think only black people are asked to leave,  when not buying product?  Most places like Starbucks have signs saying no loitering.  

I remember as a teenager having the cops called on a group of us for being in McDonalds to long   The cops came told us to leave.  We all got up except one member of our group   He decided to exercise his rights   He was warned again, third time he was body slammed to the floor put in cuffs and taken off to jail   The rest of us thought he was a fool for messing with the cops.  

Like it or not there are consequences for disobeying law enforcement.  Personally I prefer it that way.  

The police chief is backing his officers pretty clear by his statements there was more to this story.  

 

 

 

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On 4/13/2018 at 11:45 PM, B.J. Porter said:

So it may not be fear over abject and flagrant racism?

I'd posit they were afraid because they're racist a-holes who think black people are all out to steal from them.

I'm really trying to think of another reason to open fire on a 14 year old (presumably with a book bag) as he's running away from you.

I agree with you that race Was the issue.  Not sure how my using anger vs fear triggered your reaction. 

Racism is triggered by both fear and anger, in my opinion 

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6 minutes ago, BillDBastard said:

At the risk of being just another white asshole trying to understand the plight of black people in America

It seems to all go terribly wrong sometime between birth and 12 or so year sold for many and is not necessarily race related. Socio-economic situation seems a bit more relevant. That said how is our society so twisted up that we can't save these kids from a life of crime and poverty? The Great Society approach managed to destroy the  family of many at the lower income level. More folks in jail, dropping out, turning to drugs, under=educated, lost. Sad really. But whateveryou do, let's make it about skin color! Good job Sean and Co.

Cause and effect or effect and cause?

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6 minutes ago, TMSAIL said:

You think only black people are asked to leave,  when not buying product?  Most places like Starbucks have signs saying no loitering.  

I remember as a teenager having the cops called on a group of us for being in McDonalds to long   The cops came told us to leave.  We all got up except one member of our group   He decided to exercise his rights   He was warned again, third time he was body slammed to the floor put in cuffs and taken off to jail   The rest of us thought he was a fool for messing with the cops.  

Like it or not there are consequences for disobeying law enforcement.  Personally I prefer it that way.  

The police chief is backing his officers pretty clear by his statements there was more to this story.  

If I, a middle-aged white male, were to switch places with those guys, it would’ve been handled differently. I know it and you know it. 

Comparing ths situation to a group of teenagers, as well-behaved as you must have been, is a bit of a stretch.

But, hey, go with that. 

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29 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

If I, a middle-aged white male, were to switch places with those guys, it would’ve been handled differently. I know it and you know it. 

Comparing ths situation to a group of teenagers, as well-behaved as you must have been, is a bit of a stretch.

But, hey, go with that. 

I agree and disagree. Would the call have been made to the police for loitering probably not.  

If you ignored the police or smarted off to the police, as the police chief is insinuating you too would get arrested.  

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1 minute ago, TMSAIL said:

I agree and disagree. Would the call have been made to the police for loitering probably not.  

If you ignored the police or smarted off to the police, as the police chief is insinuating you too would eventually  get arrested.  

little fascist shit stick. they did nothing wrong, they shouldn't have been arrested. it's a waste of police time and public money.

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21 minutes ago, TMSAIL said:

I agree and disagree. Would the call have been made to the police for loitering probably not.  

If you ignored the police or smarted off to the police, as the police chief is insinuating you too would get arrested.  

I believe that I would have been treated differently by the police, even if they were called.  There's a substantial body (no pun intended) of evidence illustrating the disparity in treatment of whites and blacks by police.  Hell, we've seen how a white guy can wave a gun at a cop, threaten to shoot, and be arrested unharmed.  It tends not to work out that way for blacks carrying phones and pipes.

Feel free to disagree.  If you do, that won't make my position false.  It'll just show you aren't paying attention.

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14 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

I believe that I would have been treated differently by the police, even if they were called.  There's a substantial body (no pun intended) of evidence illustrating the disparity in treatment of whites and blacks by police.  Hell, we've seen how a white guy can wave a gun at a cop, threaten to shoot, and be arrested unharmed.  It tends not to work out that way for blacks carrying phones and pipes.

Feel free to disagree.  If you do, that won't make my position false.  It'll just show you aren't paying attention.

How did the police treat them wrongly? 

Like it or not once the complaint is made by the Starbucks employees on trespassing and loitering they are required to do their job.   

Here is the police chief I wonder what he meant by how the police were not treated with the same professional respect they gave to the men:

 
"[The police officers] followed policy, they did what they were supposed to do, they were professional in all their dealings with these gentlemen and instead, they got the opposite back. I will say that as an African American man, I am very aware of implicit bias. We are committed to fair and unbiased policing and anything less than that will not be tolerated in this department."

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2 minutes ago, TMSAIL said:

Here is the police chief I wonder what he meant by how the police were not treated with the same professional respect they gave to the men:

making up bullshit to protect his force.

other customers in the starbucks, including one videoing it, didn't think they did anything wrong. they don't think there's anything more to the story.

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57 minutes ago, TMSAIL said:

How did the police treat them wrongly? 

Like it or not once the complaint is made by the Starbucks employees on trespassing and loitering they are required to do their job.   

Here is the police chief I wonder what he meant by how the police were not treated with the same professional respect they gave to the men:

 
"[The police officers] followed policy, they did what they were supposed to do, they were professional in all their dealings with these gentlemen and instead, they got the opposite back. I will say that as an African American man, I am very aware of implicit bias. We are committed to fair and unbiased policing and anything less than that will not be tolerated in this department."

You have a point.   The police were probably under standing orders to make the merchant happy whenever possible.   The guys rightly refused to leave.   Starbucks gets full blame, and deserves the flack.     I’ve never been asked to leave a restaurant or coffee shop while waiting for my meeting.   Has anybody else?   

How did the cops get the opposite back?   The video on the OP shows the black guys being escorted out, the only irate individuals were the non racist white guy who was willing to call racism racism, and the equally honest customer.   I would have been telling the cops the same thing,   

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Starbucks statement - https://news.starbucks.com/views/starbucks-ceo-reprehensible-outcome-in-philadelphia-incident

excerpt -

Starbucks ceo: Reprehensible outcome in Philadelphia incident

Dear Starbucks Partners and Customers:

By now, you may be aware of a disheartening situation in one of our Philadelphia-area stores this past Thursday, that led to a reprehensible outcome. 

I’m writing this evening to convey three things: 

First, to once again express our deepest apologies to the two men who were arrested with a goal of doing whatever we can to make things right.  Second, to let you know of our plans to investigate the pertinent facts and make any necessary changes to our practices that would help prevent such an occurrence from ever happening again.  And third, to reassure you that Starbucks stands firmly against discrimination or racial profiling.    

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2 minutes ago, Sean said:

Starbucks statement - https://news.starbucks.com/views/starbucks-ceo-reprehensible-outcome-in-philadelphia-incident

excerpt -

Starbucks ceo: Reprehensible outcome in Philadelphia incident

Dear Starbucks Partners and Customers:

By now, you may be aware of a disheartening situation in one of our Philadelphia-area stores this past Thursday, that led to a reprehensible outcome. 

I’m writing this evening to convey three things: 

First, to once again express our deepest apologies to the two men who were arrested with a goal of doing whatever we can to make things right.  Second, to let you know of our plans to investigate the pertinent facts and make any necessary changes to our practices that would help prevent such an occurrence from ever happening again.  And third, to reassure you that Starbucks stands firmly against discrimination or racial profiling.    

Example of good damage control.   Way to man up, without throwing any employees under the bus.   What is the recommended next step if the wronged men grant him a meeting?    Does his peace offering come with a release, or does he just apologize, cover expenses, and demonstrate positive steps to improve his company?   

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41 minutes ago, Lark said:

You have a point.   The police were probably under standing orders to make the merchant happy whenever possible.   The guys rightly refused to leave.   Starbucks gets full blame, and deserves the flack.     I’ve never been asked to leave a restaurant or coffee shop while waiting for my meeting.   Has anybody else?   

How did the cops get the opposite back?   The video on the OP shows the black guys being escorted out, the only irate individuals were the non racist white guy who was willing to call racism racism, and the equally honest customer.   I would have been telling the cops the same thing,   

We are almost on the same page.  Except for the rightly refusing to leave. 

Sorry you do not have a right to disobey the orders of LE, you can refuse on moral grounds, as demonstrated, but legally they do not have the right to stay on private property, when asked to leave, first by the SB employees and then the police. 

 

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1 minute ago, TMSAIL said:

We are almost on the same page.  Except for the rightly refusing to leave. 

Sorry you do not have a right to disobey the orders of LE, you can refuse on moral grounds, as demonstrated, but legally they do not have the right to stay on private property, when asked to leave, first by the SB employees and then the police. 

 

Legally, Starbucks can deny service.   As I’ve said, I’ve politely but stubbornly stayed past my welcome to advantage against my Internet  company, but being a double customer and member of the chamber of commerce provides as much protection as my shiny white ass.   I could dare them to arrest me instead of solve my problem.   They knew it would be easier to do the right thing.   I’ve never been asked to leave when waiting for a meeting,    I think business etequit is a customer can order coffee if he gets there first, but the salesman or service provider is supposed to wait and order with his customer.   As this was a social meeting, etiquette is less important.   The reason they didn’t order is immaterial.   I’ve never been ordered to leave because I was waiting for the rest of my party.   I’ve left an appropriate tip when I monopolized a table.    How often has this happened to you?

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18 minutes ago, TMSAIL said:

We are almost on the same page.  Except for the rightly refusing to leave. 

Sorry you do not have a right to disobey the orders of LE, you can refuse on moral grounds, as demonstrated, but legally they do not have the right to stay on private property, when asked to leave, first by the SB employees and then the police. 

 

If the rest of the Starbucks hasn't ordered anything - and per selfadmission, multiple other tables hadn't - I'd damn well refuse to leave and make a stink. If you wouldn't, you are a spineless shit.

You patriots & heros sure have a shortage of testicular fortitude.

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18 minutes ago, Lark said:

Legally, Starbucks can deny service.   As I’ve said, I’ve politely but stubbornly stayed past my welcome to advantage against my Internet  company, but being a double customer and member of the chamber of commerce provides as much protection as my shiny white ass.   I could dare them to arrest me instead of solve my problem.   They knew it would be easier to do the right thing.   I’ve never been asked to leave when waiting for a meeting,    I think business etequit is a customer can order coffee if he gets there first, but the salesman or service provider is supposed to wait and order with his customer.   As this was a social meeting, etiquette is less important.   The reason they didn’t order is immaterial.   I’ve never been ordered to leave because I was waiting for the rest of my party.   I’ve left an appropriate tip when I monopolized a table.    How often has this happened to you?

I agree with everything you say about the issue.  Police should never have been called.  My only point is once LE is on the scene and gives you an order you have a choice - refuse and eventually you will be arrested or comply and leave.  I get the outrage at being confronted by police simply for being in a SB waiting for a friend, but at some point you cross a line.  I’m sure the last thing the police wanted was to arrest these guys. At the same time it is their job to enforce the law. 

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All as anyone needs to do is buy a freakin cup of coffee and the whole issue would have been neutralized. An establishment has both the right to refuse service and to ask loiterers to leave the premises. Why this has become some big "social issue" is beyond insane.

 

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On 4/13/2018 at 7:47 PM, ease the sheet said:

Judging by the pic, you work on the bow.

So, you know what needs to be done and how to do it. In spite of the idiots doing the yelling.

Kudos.

Yes, you’re correct. I’m just trying to keep the kid on the right track. His parents are useless. It sounds absurd, but a bunch of us regulars at a towny bar have more or less adopted the kid. He’s got about 15 dads looking out for him. 

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5 minutes ago, BillDBastard said:

All as anyone needs to do is buy a freakin cup of coffee and the whole issue would have been neutralized. An establishment has both the right to refuse service and to ask loiterers to leave the premises. Why this has become some big "social issue" is beyond insane.

 

Aside from being thrown out of bars, how often have you been invited to leave somewhere, especially if you were patiently waiting for the rest of your party before ordering?   

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3 hours ago, Sean said:

Cause and effect or effect and cause?

Chase your tail much?

Do you think it reasonable for a society to ignore that the lowest stratum is failing and being failed? Do you, like Ease The Sheets, think there isn't a damn thing you can do about it? Do you believe as BatshitLatitude believes that society's role is to pay off the bottom tier as to pacify them? 

Let me know when you get your head out of your ass and realize that so called left wing politicians push a redistributionist agenda to get re-elected and not to help the less fortunate.

Please. This is all the product of liberal social engineering via The Great Society. Look at the statistics from the 50's through today if you don't believe me. It isn't a pretty picture what has happened to the less fortunate in America in the name of building that Great Society.

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5 minutes ago, Lark said:

Aside from being thrown out of bars, how often have you been invited to leave somewhere, especially if you were patiently waiting for the rest of your party before ordering?   

I'll go out on a limb here and say this didn't happen after 5 minutes.

I went into Duncan Donuts the other day. Never go into such places but nature was calling in a big way. Went in, used the head and then bought a cup of coffee. Now I didn't need a cup of coffee but it sure as fuk was the right thing to do to support a shop that was there in my time of need.

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5 minutes ago, BillDBastard said:

Chase your tail much?

Do you think it reasonable for a society to ignore that the lowest stratum is failing and being failed? Do you, like Ease The Sheets, think there isn't a damn thing you can do about it? Do you believe as BatshitLatitude believes that society's role is to pay off the bottom tier as to pacify them? 

Let me know when you get your head out of your ass and realize that so called left wing politicians push a redistributionist agenda to get re-elected and not to help the less fortunate.

Please. This is all the product of liberal social engineering via The Great Society. Look at the statistics from the 50's through today if you don't believe me. It isn't a pretty picture what has happened to the less fortunate in America in the name of building that Great Society.

I rest my case.

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Did they do this often or was it a one off occurrence?  It seems odd that the police would be called at all.  Quite a few folks, myself included, wash their hands before eating.  I wouldn't think it an odd occurence for someone to walk in and go directly to the restroom.

 

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1 hour ago, Sean said:

I rest my case.

What case would that be? That you don't have a clue nor answer? That you can't address the above? Fine.

A man in search of ideas and solutions you are.

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Untitled.jpg.876b675a20ff7cf7617c1a76f7a1c5cb.jpg

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1 hour ago, Mid said:

Untitled.jpg.876b675a20ff7cf7617c1a76f7a1c5cb.jpg

Yeah so.  What's your point?  What's your takeaway?  

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3 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:
4 hours ago, Mid said:

Untitled.jpg.876b675a20ff7cf7617c1a76f7a1c5cb.jpg

Yeah so.  What's your point?  What's your takeaway?  

My takeaway is that fewer blacks apparently disapprove of President Trump than voted for Obama.

Winning! Bigly!!!!

-DSK

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16 hours ago, BillDBastard said:

Chase your tail much?

Do you think it reasonable for a society to ignore that the lowest stratum is failing and being failed? Do you, like Ease The Sheets, think there isn't a damn thing you can do about it? Do you believe as BatshitLatitude believes that society's role is to pay off the bottom tier as to pacify them? 

Do you think it's reasonable for a society to recognize that the lowest stratum is failing, and gloat about it while jerking the rug out from under them?

Let me know when you get your head out of your ass and realize that so called left wing politicians push a redistributionist agenda to get re-elected and not to help the less fortunate.

Let me know when you get your head out of your ass and realize that right-wing politicians push a redistributionist agenda to tilt the economy even further than it already is, so the wealthy plutocrats at the head of the corporate pyramid will give them lots o' cash so they can get re-elected.

Please. This is all the product of liberal social engineering via The Great Society. Look at the statistics from the 50's through today if you don't believe me. It isn't a pretty picture what has happened to the less fortunate in America in the name of building that Great Society.

The problem with your assumptions is that more white people are in jail and on welfare than blacks. You're just another bigot eager to show that WINNING!!! means it's OK to be racist again

-DSK

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11 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

The problem with your assumptions is that more white people are in jail and on welfare than blacks. You're just another bigot eager to show that WINNING!!! means it's OK to be racist again

-DSK

I didn't see any reference to race in his post.

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21 hours ago, BillDBastard said:

At the risk of being just another white asshole trying to understand the plight of black people in America

It seems to all go terribly wrong sometime between birth and 12 or so year sold for many and is not necessarily race related. Socio-economic situation seems a bit more relevant. That said how is our society so twisted up that we can't save these kids from a life of crime and poverty? The Great Society approach managed to destroy the  family of many at the lower income level. More folks in jail, dropping out, turning to drugs, under=educated, lost. Sad really. But whateveryou do, let's make it about skin color! Good job Sean and Co.

 Could you repeat all this a little louder? Dog is on your team and would love to cheer for you, but he missed this little bit here.

-DSK

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17 hours ago, BillDBastard said:

All as anyone needs to do is buy a freakin cup of coffee and the whole issue would have been neutralized. An establishment has both the right to refuse service and to ask loiterers to leave the premises. Why this has become some big "social issue" is beyond insane.

 

I'm starting to wonder if half of the problems you have in the USA aren't partially related to a basic belittling  of your own dignity.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

The problem with your assumptions is that more white people are in jail and on welfare than blacks. 

-DSK

Given that there are a LOT more white people in this country than blacks, that would not be a hard metric to show.  What a BS disingenuous attempt!  Here's your homework for the day..... What's the per capita of blacks vs whites in prison as a ratio of their proportion of the population?  

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4 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:
6 hours ago, Mid said:

Untitled.jpg.876b675a20ff7cf7617c1a76f7a1c5cb.jpg

Yeah so.  What's your point?  What's your takeaway?  

Middy, I'm still waiting for you to explain what the point of this is.  What are you trying to say?  

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3 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Given that there are a LOT more white people in this country than blacks, that would not be a hard metric to show.  What a BS disingenuous attempt!  Here's your homework for the day..... What's the per capita of blacks vs whites in prison as a ratio of their proportion of the population?  

Jeffie went there. YESSSSSSSSSS. He's been shown, multiple times, data that showcases racial differences in sentencing for the same crimes and he went there. You go non-racist Jeff!

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Just now, Shootist Jeff said:

Middy, I'm still waiting for you to explain what the point of this is.  What are you trying to say?  

other than you are a dumb racist motherfucker whats your point Jeff?

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Just now, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:
3 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Given that there are a LOT more white people in this country than blacks, that would not be a hard metric to show.  What a BS disingenuous attempt!  Here's your homework for the day..... What's the per capita of blacks vs whites in prison as a ratio of their proportion of the population?  

Jeffie went there. YESSSSSSSSSS. He's been shown, multiple times, data that showcases differences in sentencing for the same crimes and he went there. You go non-racist Jeff!

So its now "racist" to point out facts??  I never once made a value judgement about whether it was right or wrong or whether I agree with black vs white sentencing or why so many more blacks are in prison than whites as a proportion of their race.  But what I said IS a fact.  It is truth.  Speaking a truth does not make one racist.  

NIce try, but FAIL as usual, jibs.

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3 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

other than you are a dumb racist motherfucker whats your point Jeff?

So its now racist to ask someone to explain what they think a poll means to them???

I see you're doubling down on stupid today.  A bit early to be drinking over there, angry boy.  On the other hand, its cocktail time here.  I think I'll have another.  :D

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Just now, Shootist Jeff said:

\On the other hand, its cocktail time here.  I think I'll have another.  :D

I can feel Princess Jeff non-racist rants against "thug culture" coming on strong!

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2 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

So its now "racist" to point out facts??  I never once made a value judgement about whether it was right or wrong or whether I agree with black vs white sentencing or why so many more blacks are in prison than whites as a proportion of their race.  But what I said IS a fact.  It is truth.  Speaking a truth does not make one racist.  

NIce try, but FAIL as usual, jibs.

Sometimes, what one proclaims as "truth" also proclaims that one is a racist.

-DSK

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1 minute ago, Steam Flyer said:

Sometimes, what one proclaims as "truth" also proclaims that one is a racist.

Yup. In Flagler Co, FL black convicted of robbery receive an average sentence of almost 7 years, whites 2.5 years. Same crime, dramatic difference in time. Blacks are substantially more prosecuted for minor drug offenses like marijuana possession. Again, same crime, dramatic difference in outcomes.

Pointing out the effect of these racist policys as a "truth" just shows what "truth" one wants to find.

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1 minute ago, Steam Flyer said:
4 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

So its now "racist" to point out facts??  I never once made a value judgement about whether it was right or wrong or whether I agree with black vs white sentencing or why so many more blacks are in prison than whites as a proportion of their race.  But what I said IS a fact.  It is truth.  Speaking a truth does not make one racist.  

NIce try, but FAIL as usual, jibs.

Sometimes, what one proclaims as "truth" also proclaims that one is a racist.

So its now racist to point out that there are more blacks in prison as a % of their population but its OK to disingenuously attempt to say that there are more whites in prison and on welfare overall?

Let's try this again in a non-racist, inclusive way that keeps everyone happy.  Try this on: 

"There are more whites in prison and on welfare than blacks, overall.  So we need to focus all our attention on white poverty and involvement in crime.  Since there are more whites on welfare and in prison that blacks, overall, then there are no real societal issues with blacks in terms of poverty or hopelessness that we should be wasting our energy on."  

Does that work better for ya'll?

 

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2 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

Yup. In Flagler Co, FL black convicted of robbery receive an average sentence of almost 7 years, whites 2.5 years. Same crime, dramatic difference in time. Blacks are substantially more prosecuted for minor drug offenses like marijuana possession. Again, same crime, dramatic difference in outcomes.

Pointing out the effect of these racist policys as a "truth" just shows what "truth" one wants to find.

Except the question wasn't about cause and effect.  Dumbass stated that there were more whites on welfare and in prison than blacks with no explanation as to why that might be as if just stating it was enough.  It is true, but there is a whole lot more to it than that.  Duh!.  But if I point out a counter-argument that is also true but that leaves out the explanation, I'm suddenly racist for merely pointing it out?  

I'm sorry massa, please tell me from now on when yo all needs me to caveat certain things so as not to offend the racism Po-Leece.  Fo I ain't neva sure when I's is gonna offend dem snowflakes.  I tries real hard, so please don't beat me no mo, massa.  

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Coming next week, the much anticipated release of Ann Coulter's new book, "How to Open Your Door to a democRAT...If You Must."  

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40 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Coming next week, the much anticipated release of Ann Coulter's new book, "How to Open Your Door to a democRAT...If You Must."  

Armed and ready to shoot.

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Holy shit, more stupid white people who've little to no experience with darkies screeching about racism. I think you should all move out of your white enclaves and into the inner cities to be closer to your new BFFs. 

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3 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

So its now "racist" to point out facts??  I never once made a value judgement about whether it was right or wrong or whether I agree with black vs white sentencing or why so many more blacks are in prison than whites as a proportion of their race.  But what I said IS a fact.  It is truth.  Speaking a truth does not make one racist.  

NIce try, but FAIL as usual, jibs.

Not saying you are racist.  I am, however, going to label you disingenuous.

If you only want to use the metric you mentioned in Post #137, while ignoring the disparity in "justice" received by members of those two groups, you are not interested in a discussion.  

At least, you aren't interested in an honest discussion.

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4 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:
3 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

So its now "racist" to point out facts??  I never once made a value judgement about whether it was right or wrong or whether I agree with black vs white sentencing or why so many more blacks are in prison than whites as a proportion of their race.  But what I said IS a fact.  It is truth.  Speaking a truth does not make one racist.  

NIce try, but FAIL as usual, jibs.

Not saying you are racist.  I am, however, going to label you disingenuous.

If you only want to use the metric you mentioned in Post #137, while ignoring the disparity in "justice" received by members of those two groups, you are not interested in a discussion.  

At least, you aren't interested in an honest discussion.

Ah, so I'm being disingenuous and dishonest for not caveating that fact with further context in post 137, but Steam flyer gets a pass when he does the same in post 133???  

I guess it went right over your head that the entire F'ing reason I made the statement I did was to point out (by baiting him) that he didn't bother to provide the context for his statement either, ergo it was a disengenuous statement.  It's no wonder Steamy didn't take the bait because jiblets and the rest of you gobbled it up so fast.  Probably never even tasted the hook you were all so intent.  Jayzus.

"Mission Accomplished" 

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53 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Ah, so I'm being disingenuous and dishonest for not caveating that fact with further context in post 137, but Steam flyer gets a pass when he does the same in post 133???  

I guess it went right over your head that the entire F'ing reason I made the statement I did was to point out (by baiting him) that he didn't bother to provide the context for his statement either, ergo it was a disengenuous statement.  It's no wonder Steamy didn't take the bait because jiblets and the rest of you gobbled it up so fast.  Probably never even tasted the hook you were all so intent.  Jayzus.

"Mission Accomplished" 

ooohhhh a drunk race baiting troll. how dabnitian.

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52 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Ah, so I'm being disingenuous and dishonest for not caveating that fact with further context in post 137, but Steam flyer gets a pass when he does the same in post 133???  

I guess it went right over your head that the entire F'ing reason I made the statement I did was to point out (by baiting him) that he didn't bother to provide the context for his statement either, ergo it was a disengenuous statement.  It's no wonder Steamy didn't take the bait because jiblets and the rest of you gobbled it up so fast.  Probably never even tasted the hook you were all so intent.  Jayzus.

"Mission Accomplished" 

I avoided his post, as I'd rather not get bogged down in the "racism" argument.

When you posted how you wanted to compare percentages, it irked me.  I get so tired of people using statistics to obfuscate.

I am sorry you felt personally attacked and alone in that I didn't chide Steam Flyer, as well.

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I’m the least racist person I know, but still, if I’m walking down the street and I pass a black person, I will consciously note, without thinking, that the person is black. I don’t do that with white people. Never crosses my mind. This bothers me but I can’t help it. I was raised in the ‘60’s.

 Will there ever be a day when average folks don’t notice? I don’t know. 

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33 minutes ago, Sean said:

I’m the least racist person I know, but still, if I’m walking down the street and I pass a black person, I will consciously note, without thinking, that the person is black. I don’t do that with white people. Never crosses my mind. This bothers me but I can’t help it. I was raised in the ‘60’s.

 Will there ever be a day when average folks don’t notice? I don’t know. 

Kids.  Most urban and I include suburbs in that do not see color the way we did. 

 

 

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35 minutes ago, TMSAIL said:

Kids.  Most urban and I include suburbs in that do not see color the way we did. 

 

 

I hope you’re right. If so, that’s encouraging, at least for the kids growing up with parents like me who have tried to shed the implicit bias that we couldn’t avoid absorbing growing up in a different time. There are great swaths of the country that aren’t there yet me thinks. 

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"Least racist person"........ funny stuff. Guy who used to work for me once said I was only making him do something because he was black, tongue in cheek, sort of like. So I responded, " No I am asking you to do it because....... wait your black?"  He burst into laughter, as did I...... Man, you just don't know about such shit until it happens to you.

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Interracial dating is now normalized.   Racism can’t long survive that.   

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1 hour ago, Lark said:

Interracial dating is now normalized.   Racism can’t long survive that.   

Lucky we still have sexism, religious bigotry & speciesism, then.

Plus whatever the fringe crowd in the universities have coem up with this week......

Personally I'm sticking with elitism. I have no time to waste on stupid people (awaits obvious riposte........)

FKT

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13 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Lucky we still have sexism, religious bigotry & speciesism, then.

Plus whatever the fringe crowd in the universities have coem up with this week......

Personally I'm sticking with elitism. I have no time to waste on stupid people (awaits obvious riposte........)

FKT

Cynicism 

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10 hours ago, Shortforbob said:
On 4/16/2018 at 6:51 AM, BillDBastard said:

All as anyone needs to do is buy a freakin cup of coffee and the whole issue would have been neutralized. An establishment has both the right to refuse service and to ask loiterers to leave the premises. Why this has become some big "social issue" is beyond insane.

 

I'm starting to wonder if half of the problems you have in the USA aren't partially related to a basic belittling  of your own dignity.

And manners. Unless circumstances are extenuating (e.g. you show up early for a limited time happy hour like we did yesterday), if I was meeting someone for a cup of coffee and a snack I'd wait until they showed up to order. I'm having one cup of coffee; I don't want to start and finish it before the other party shows up. It's not polite, even if they're late.

Happy hour and half priced pints...well whose having just one of those? But the situation often dictates that proper etiquette is you wait for the other party before you order your food and drinks.

What most people don't grasp is that in that Starbucks I could have showed with No. 6 and sat there for half an hour waiting for a third party and even used the bathroom without anyone saying a thing because we're two white guys. But if a couple of black guys try it...guess what happens.

It's not about the establishment's rights unless you're trying to blame the black guys for acting like white people.

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2 minutes ago, Lark said:

Cynicism 

Yeah I've got that too. In fact one of my high school teachers commented on it back when I was 17.

FKT

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2 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

What most people don't grasp is that in that Starbucks I could have showed with No. 6 and sat their for half an hour waiting for a third party for half an hour and even used the bathroom without anyone saying a thing because we're two white guys.

Hell, BJ, I've gone into a coffee shop with the Weekend Australian, read the entire paper and left without being 'graced' with the attention of wait-staff, let alone asked to leave....

FKT

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Just now, Fah Kiew Tu said:
5 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

What most people don't grasp is that in that Starbucks I could have showed with No. 6 and sat their for half an hour waiting for a third party for half an hour and even used the bathroom without anyone saying a thing because we're two white guys.

Hell, BJ, I've gone into a coffee shop with the Weekend Australian, read the entire paper and left without being 'graced' with the attention of wait-staff, let alone asked to leave....

FKT

You're in Australia...different issues.

 

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16 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

You're in Australia...different issues.

 

other white people in the Starbucks expressed the same sentiment. hence their complaints about racism.

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1 minute ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:
19 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

You're in Australia...different issues.

 

other white people in the Starbucks expressed the same sentiment. hence their complaints about racism.

Yup. I mean, the white guy they were supposed to meet got in an argument with the cops. Did he get arrested?

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Want some insight into black in America? Watch "I am Evidence" on HBO, its a very sad and depressing piece on rape focusing on rape kits and how few are even processed. Poor and black? good luck jack. While I am watching that what I keep hearing is how the problem is no funding for processing and following up so the priority is on the easy ones. Which means white and well to do.  So perhaps if we reallocated from busting people for pot and immigration then ............

I dare anyone who believes racism isn't an issue to watch it - Markiska Hargitay is a producer - not easy to watch but worth the time.  It's really an indictment on how we have treated sexual assault on women but the obvious focus falls on how LE ignores the poor and those of color.  Just not worthy of justice, in fact LE rarely even turns those rape kits in. 

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It's been said for a long time - "People who pay a lot of taxes get a lot of service".

It's true from the local cop on up to the POTUS.

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2 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Yeah I've got that too. In fact one of my high school teachers commented on it back when I was 17.

FKT

Maybe we had the same teacher.

I'm not a cynic, I'm ethically pure but physically debauched.

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2 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

And manners. Unless circumstances are extenuating (e.g. you show up early for a limited time happy hour like we did yesterday), if I was meeting someone for a cup of coffee and a snack I'd wait until they showed up to order. I'm having one cup of coffee; I don't want to start and finish it before the other party shows up. It's not polite, even if they're late.

Happy hour and half priced pints...well whose having just one of those? But the situation often dictates that proper etiquette is you wait for the other party before you order your food and drinks.

What most people don't grasp is that in that Starbucks I could have showed with No. 6 and sat there for half an hour waiting for a third party and even used the bathroom without anyone saying a thing because we're two white guys. But if a couple of black guys try it...guess what happens.

It's not about the establishment's rights unless you're trying to blame the black guys for acting like white people.

actually I was referring to Americans apparent acceptance of being cuffed by police for "trespassing" and other indignities inflicted on you all by your "protectors" 

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19 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:
3 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

And manners. Unless circumstances are extenuating (e.g. you show up early for a limited time happy hour like we did yesterday), if I was meeting someone for a cup of coffee and a snack I'd wait until they showed up to order. I'm having one cup of coffee; I don't want to start and finish it before the other party shows up. It's not polite, even if they're late.

Happy hour and half priced pints...well whose having just one of those? But the situation often dictates that proper etiquette is you wait for the other party before you order your food and drinks.

What most people don't grasp is that in that Starbucks I could have showed with No. 6 and sat there for half an hour waiting for a third party and even used the bathroom without anyone saying a thing because we're two white guys. But if a couple of black guys try it...guess what happens.

It's not about the establishment's rights unless you're trying to blame the black guys for acting like white people.

actually I was referring to Americans apparent acceptance of being cuffed by police for "trespassing" and other indignities inflicted on you all by your "protectors" 

Given how many unarmed black men have been shot for literally breaking no laws over the last few years I think that "acceptance" is, at best, a smart defensive posture. Sucks, but it's truth. When you can be gunned down in your own back yard for talking on the cell phone why would you resist arrest over something trivial?

If they were trying to do the same arrest on a couple of white people it would have gone very differently. Especially since white people sitting peacefully waiting for a friend never would have been arrested or reported to the police.

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13 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

Given how many unarmed black men have been shot for literally breaking no laws over the last few years I think that "acceptance" is, at best, a smart defensive posture. Sucks, but it's truth. When you can be gunned down in your own back yard for talking on the cell phone why would you resist arrest over something trivial?

If they were trying to do the same arrest on a couple of white people it would have gone very differently. Especially since white people sitting peacefully waiting for a friend never would have been arrested or reported to the police.

And I wasn't just referring to black guys. The number of times I've read comments like.."if you argue with a cop, you deserve what you get" and similar..most people seem to be scared of police in the USA not just american africans.

I've said this before, but the sooner y'all just call each other Americans rather than "african american or hispanics..the sooner you deal with this race shit.

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11 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:
24 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

Given how many unarmed black men have been shot for literally breaking no laws over the last few years I think that "acceptance" is, at best, a smart defensive posture. Sucks, but it's truth. When you can be gunned down in your own back yard for talking on the cell phone why would you resist arrest over something trivial?

If they were trying to do the same arrest on a couple of white people it would have gone very differently. Especially since white people sitting peacefully waiting for a friend never would have been arrested or reported to the police.

And I wasn't just referring to black guys. The number of times I've read comments like.."if you argue with a cop, you deserve what you get" and similar..most people seem to be scared of police in the USA not just american africans.

I've said this before, but the sooner y'all just call each other Americans rather than "african american or hispanics..the sooner you deal with this race shit.

There's degrees of fear involved.

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4 minutes ago, Righty_tighty_lefty_dumbas said:

You think that is on white people? You can even call a man sir or a female female, they might identify as Nordic duck and get offended. The labels have been put in place by the people wanting to be labeled.

Did I say it was on white americans?

I work with people of, Indian,chinese, polish, greek, italian and african birth or decent..no one refers to themselves or eachother as *****australian

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2 minutes ago, Righty_tighty_lefty_dumbas said:

Than who are you blaiming with this statement?

 

"but the sooner y'all just call each other Americans"

Jesus you've got some work to do.:rolleyes:

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1 hour ago, Ishmael said:

Maybe we had the same teacher.

I'm not a cynic, I'm ethically pure but physically debauched.

After studying Games Theory as part of one of my postgrad degrees I decided that I'd adopt situational ethics. Basically, if the other party wanted to play 'heads I win tails you lose' I'd simply adopt their preferred model for interactions.

It's sensible to start out trying for win-win but sadly (and cynically) far too many take this as a licence to take advantage. Tit for tat tends to upset them. Funny that.

I don't 'get' this whole thread but I suspect that's because, as BJ says, I'm Australian. I wouldn't say it couldn't happen here but it's unlikely. OTOH once things have progressed to the cops arriving, instructing you on behalf of the property owner to leave, and you refusing - it isn't going to end well regardless of *what* colour you are. One of my neighbours had a white Aussie squatter/camper decide that the foreshore was a lovely place to camp for an extended stay, refused to accept that the landowner's title went to high water mark, refused to leave. The cops were called and said squatter was removed under protest. If he'd resisted, he *would* have been arrested and charged with trespass. I have other similar stories about campers around these parts too.

So, sure, the shop owner starting the process off was a dick move, I guess, not knowing the back story. But I don't blame the cops in this case. Think for a moment what'd happen if the cops *didn't* turn up to deal with a trespass claim.

FKT

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It's the cuffing I object to...seems to be SOP in the USA..ant the fact that they didn't cuff their white mate when he showed up and argues with them.

Bloody waste of tax payers money.

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On 4/16/2018 at 6:40 AM, TMSAIL said:

I agree with everything you say about the issue.  Police should never have been called.  My only point is once LE is on the scene and gives you an order you have a choice - refuse and eventually you will be arrested or comply and leave.  I get the outrage at being confronted by police simply for being in a SB waiting for a friend, but at some point you cross a line.  I’m sure the last thing the police wanted was to arrest these guys. At the same time it is their job to enforce the law. 

why can't the police ask to speak to the person that made the call first and ask what the problem is?

If they did, and the employee said "they haven't ordered anything"

 

The police are perfectly within their rights to tell the employee to stop wasting their time and leave..no?

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Here's a id of the whole thing..seems like a situation of the cops feeling stupid and embarrassed but unable to back down.

The cafe is half empty.

I believe the employee has been fired.

 

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16 hours ago, Sean said:

I’m the least racist person I know, but still, if I’m walking down the street and I pass a black person, I will consciously note, without thinking, that the person is black. I don’t do that with white people. Never crosses my mind. This bothers me but I can’t help it. I was raised in the ‘60’s.

 Will there ever be a day when average folks don’t notice? I don’t know. 

No, not if we continue to highlight and exaggerate the perceived differences between the races.  The more we do this this dance of tit for tat back and forth finger pointing and accusations of whatever - the farther we get from that day of ever finally becoming a color blind society.  

IMH (and passionate) O.... the ONLY way we reach that utopian day is to STOP making a big deal of race.  Period.  Should we continue to address examples of obvious bias and abuse - absolutely!  But in all other things, we need to remove ALL references to racial, cultural and ethnic discriminators.  Stop with this African-American BS.  Or Hispanic American, or Asian-American, or Jewish American BS!  The news should not be allowed to mention race unless they do it all the time and for all races.  Gov't should stop having racial qualifiers for stuff.  Until our everyday language stops identifying people by their race, then we will ALWAYS have race as an issue.  

ALL sides of this issue are guilty of this as well.  Whites do it, blacks do it, hispanics do it.  There should be no more traditionally African-American colleges.  There should be no more black neighborhoods or schools.  Or white schools.  Even if they are majority one or the other - they should just be "SCHOOL".  It will take a couple of generations to break ourselves of this, I have no illusions this will happen overnight.  But it absolutely will NOT happen at all until we stop labeling everything with the fucking race tag. 

And frankly the same should be in effect for the gender tag as well.  When we announce that we have the first "African-Fijian gay transgender woman who is a man of Hispanic and Asian descent" we immediately put that person into a box.  Instead why don't we just call that person "Jane"???

The more we highlight and amplify these racial divisions, the more we promulgate them.  

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13 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

No, not if we continue to highlight and exaggerate the perceived differences between the races.  The more we do this this dance of tit for tat back and forth finger pointing and accusations of whatever - the farther we get from that day of ever finally becoming a color blind society.  

IMH (and passionate) O.... the ONLY way we reach that utopian day is to STOP making a big deal of race.  Period.  Should we continue to address examples of obvious bias and abuse - absolutely!  But in all other things, we need to remove ALL references to racial, cultural and ethnic discriminators.  Stop with this African-American BS.  Or Hispanic American, or Asian-American, or Jewish American BS!  The news should not be allowed to mention race unless they do it all the time and for all races.  Gov't should stop having racial qualifiers for stuff.  Until our everyday language stops identifying people by their race, then we will ALWAYS have race as an issue.  

ALL sides of this issue are guilty of this as well.  Whites do it, blacks do it, hispanics do it.  There should be no more traditionally African-American colleges.  There should be no more black neighborhoods or schools.  Or white schools.  Even if they are majority one or the other - they should just be "SCHOOL".  It will take a couple of generations to break ourselves of this, I have no illusions this will happen overnight.  But it absolutely will NOT happen at all until we stop labeling everything with the fucking race tag. 

And frankly the same should be in effect for the gender tag as well.  When we announce that we have the first "African-Fijian gay transgender woman who is a man of Hispanic and Asian descent" we immediately put that person into a box.  Instead why don't we just call that person "Jane"???

The more we highlight and amplify these racial divisions, the more we promulgate them.  

I am not aware that these institutions deny admission to anyone not black.  In fact, my son was accepted at Howard University.  Recognizing HBCUs as "historically" black is a fact.  They are historically black.  They were established and survived scores of years of discrimination, both subversive and endorsed by governments.  The use of the label is a testament to their survival against long odds.

As far as neighborhoods and schools - if an area or school population is predominantly black, the use of "black" is not offensive, IMHO.  It is an identifier.  Now, there WAS a time when schools were labeled "black" or "colored", but that was part of segregation.  Sure, there are places where people self-segregate.  I have no problem if people choose to live amongst people they feel most comfortable.  As long as there are not prohibitions to keep "others" out.

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Anyone thinking that America hasn’t systematically assisted whites in their path to financial success over blacks and other minorities simply has not been paying attention. 

Be it slavery, the failure of reconstruction, lynchings, Jim Crow laws, redlining and other mortgage and housing shenanigans right up to our current mortgage interest deduction,l and racial bias in law enforcement and educational opportunities, our nation has systematically deprived black citizens of their intellectual and economic potential. 

 We are a nation with a tradition of bureaucratic & institutional racism. And now, we are complaining that we are suffering the inevitable economic consequences of such policies. 

At least the Trump administration is trying to protect our nation’s richest citizens from these costs. Congratulations Paul Ryan & FOX News, Mission Accomplished!

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1 hour ago, Shootist Jeff said:

IMH (and passionate) O.... the ONLY way we reach that utopian day is to STOP making a big deal of race.  Period.  Should we continue to address examples of obvious bias and abuse - absolutely!  But in all other things, we need to remove ALL references to racial, cultural and ethnic discriminators.  Stop with this African-American BS.  Or Hispanic American, or Asian-American, or Jewish American BS!  The news should not be allowed to mention race unless they do it all the time and for all races.  Gov't should stop having racial qualifiers for stuff.  Until our everyday language stops identifying people by their race, then we will ALWAYS have race as an issue.  

That's a very easy thing to say from the position of privilege.

You're not the one getting dragged out of Starbucks in cuffs, shot in your own back yard while talking on your cell phone, or given a way heavier sentence for the same crime a white guy was convicted of. And you're not the one that has your mug shot shown on TV for one crime, while a white rapist gets his college graduation studio portrait.

History is shown that it is not common for the party with the upper hand to level things out. The underclass, in general, has to speak up and demand equality. Those on top do not like this, hence your discomfort with talking about it.

Shutting up about it basically says "You all down there shut up, and we'll sort it for you." That never really happens now, does it? It didn't happen with women's suffrage, the civil rights movement, gay marriage, etc. etc. It took the oppressed party speaking over and over and over again until the people in power finally got the point.

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38 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

That's a very easy thing to say from the position of privilege.

You're not the one getting dragged out of Starbucks in cuffs, shot in your own back yard while talking on your cell phone, or given a way heavier sentence for the same crime a white guy was convicted of. And you're not the one that has your mug shot shown on TV for one crime, while a white rapist gets his college graduation studio portrait.

History is shown that it is not common for the party with the upper hand to level things out. The underclass, in general, has to speak up and demand equality. Those on top do not like this, hence your discomfort with talking about it.

Shutting up about it basically says "You all down there shut up, and we'll sort it for you." That never really happens now, does it? It didn't happen with women's suffrage, the civil rights movement, gay marriage, etc. etc. It took the oppressed party speaking over and over and over again until the people in power finally got the point.

Maybe you could give a "black" colored skin person a ride on your nice shiny boat, take some selfies and post them so we can all see what a good samaritan you are, white boy. :lol:

tiniest_violin.gif

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11 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

And I wasn't just referring to black guys. The number of times I've read comments like.."if you argue with a cop, you deserve what you get" and similar..most people seem to be scared of police in the USA not just american africans.

I've said this before, but the sooner y'all just call each other Americans rather than "african american or hispanics..the sooner you deal with this race shit.

I don't assume that the majority of Australians are like you, you shouldn't infer that most Americans are like those you see commenting on the Internet. 

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5 hours ago, Bus Driver