dohertpk

When to gybe

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So I've upgraded from my 600 to a Musto Skiff and am trying to get my head around assymetric racing. How do I know when to gybe for the layline? 

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On a multihull, with jibing angles not much different than your Musto Skiff,  many use the same method as when finding the lay- line upwind. 

When you can see the mark over your BACK shoulder, you can make it. VMG running  you get down the course faster than when going upwind. So cheat a bit.

No, I've not sailed a Musto Skiff. Have run their Midwinters twice, though and was able to sail it after the race, in addition to a Swift Solo. The Musto guys depowered the boat before I got aboard. A mistake, as it felt mushy off the wind and tended to fall to windward too easily. I sailed an International Canoe at the time, but I don't think they knew that!

Dave Ellis

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Little less than 90 degrees, but not much less. If you are pretty close to the mark, go for a deeper angle (much lower than 90), cause you'll have to bear away to drop the kite.

 

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It changes with wind strength, more wind deeper angle, it's just something you have to learn.

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I agree with Jethrow the most. At high winds, because of VMG, a little more around 80 degrees from the bow. Light winds, almost 100. The bigger key to a good gybe is to do it at full speed. If you allow the boat to drop off a plane, you'll have a handful. Make all of your tacks and gybes with as much speed as possible and the boat will be much easier to handle. Backing off the throttle on a skiff just increases the swimming lessons.

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Thanks all for the responses. The boat handling is very much a work in progress alright but, apart from the extra string, things aren't too different from the 600. 

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On 17/04/2018 at 6:54 PM, sailwriter said:

On a multihull, with jibing angles not much different than your Musto Skiff,  many use the same method as when finding the lay- line upwind. 

When you can see the mark over your BACK shoulder, you can make it. VMG running  you get down the course faster than when going upwind. So cheat a bit.

No, I've not sailed a Musto Skiff. Have run their Midwinters twice, though and was able to sail it after the race, in addition to a Swift Solo. The Musto guys depowered the boat before I got aboard. A mistake, as it felt mushy off the wind and tended to fall to windward too easily. I sailed an International Canoe at the time, but I don't think they knew that!

Dave Ellis

Er... if your downwind mark is over your back shoulder, you need to drop the kite and beat back to it! 

A downwind layline will be across the boat from you, under the boom. You shouldn't be looking over any shoulders. For smaller gybing angles it will be further forward under the kite, for broader gybing angle it will be more toward the beam. 

You can get 90 degrees by lining up two symmetrical points on your boat and roughly sighting through them. But gybing angles downwind will rarely be 90 degrees, so any sighting lines, unlike upwind, will be of little use.

The problem is, whilst upwind the layline may vary with shifts, downwind it varies with pressure and shifts. A 5 knot gust which heads you 10 degrees as well could see your angle change by 30-40 degrees. 

Hitting the lay-lines early is usually a bad call tactically, and even more so downwind when they are so hard to call. You cna take a note of typical gybing angles on any given day, and guesstimate from there, but really it's best to err on the side of caution. I always feel that if i'm trying to call a layline from that far away that I can't just guess it by feel, then I'm hitting the laylines too far out.  

Caveat: for very one sided venues like Garda. Make getting a layline transit for the leeward mark part of your pre-race prep.(Sail at it with the kite and get a transit on the shoreline behind, sighting through the mark). 

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HA!

Wondered how long before someone pointed out my confusion on the question. Took a LOT longer than I thought for a sailor to correct me.

Actually, sail often and long enough in all kinds of conditions, steady, puffy, waves or smooth and you find that you just kinda know whether to jibe before or after the 90- degrees.

Dave Ellis

Oh, and ironically, had to go a bit upwind for a leeward mark recently when the furler line tangled. Slow.

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This turned out to be one of the most useful threads to me on Dinghy Anarchy in some time. 

So much more to it than I had realized. Sailing the A Cat, the speed made the sighting across the boat at 90 degrees a bit late, if I started the jibe then. But, doing RC for a bunch of their regattas, if they go early and have to bleed off downwind, man, is that slow. I've seen a nearby non spin 420 pace a dead downwind A Cat bleeding down to a leeward mark.

The International Canoe jibes much easier and faster than when tacking, so the 90-degree thing worked OK.

On the 505, in  light air up to around 8 knots they go just enough off dead downwind to fill the spinnaker and clear their air from those behind. Not planing, so, just go the shorter distance. But if they can "wire run" with the crew on the trap, it is about the mirror image of the upwind angles.

But, the problem with simplification, as noted by others, is that if they gauge across the boat when they are in a lull, jibe and get a puff on the former layline, now it is too tight. Other way around, too. Gauge on a big puff and get a lull after jibing, may end up having to jibe again. 

Hey, the pro sailors on the Americas Cup boats, M32 matches, Ultimates etc., miss downwind laylines surprisingly often.  Not a wimpy sport.

Dave Ellis

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Trying to call downwind laylines on full plane from far away is difficult. We often jibe early for clear air or if we are in a lift, pressure etc. If you jibe early you have to take another pair of jibes. Too late and you are dowsing while hot (hard on a 505) and then jib reaching to the mark. We only drop off plane if we undershot by a bit (100') and then we crab down to at least keep some speed up. 

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Thanks all for the replies. My issue is that it's very hard to see anything under the sails on the Musto. I guess it's just a case of using landmarks?

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This is a great discussion, thanks all.

 

12 hours ago, Locus said:

Trying to call downwind laylines on full plane from far away is difficult. We often jibe early for clear air or if we are in a lift, pressure etc. If you jibe early you have to take another pair of jibes. Too late and you are dowsing while hot (hard on a 505) and then jib reaching to the mark. We only drop off plane if we undershot by a bit (100') and then we crab down to at least keep some speed up. 

Yes, it's just like trying to judge laylines to the windward mark from far away. Difficult and often not fruitful, you get caught in a slow lane from far out in a corner.

Another thing to consider..... getting into the right approach lane to the mark for the douse-n-round is just as important, or even much more important if there's traffic. Staying inside the corner and making an extra two gybes can put you in the right spot to stay in fast lane coming into and leaving the mark, which can make the douse easier and cleaner, as well as saving you a few places and saving you from having to fight for clear air on the next upwind leg.

Maybe if you're more of a wizard sailor than me, and you can just make up the difference in blazing speed coming out of that corner on the perfect angle, and shoot in ahead of traffic anyway, it's better. It feels really really good when you can pull that off, it's like a port-tack start at the pin. But most of the time, a little voice in my head says "don't do it, remember what happens 9 out of 10 times when you try this stunt"

FB- Doug

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On 21/04/2018 at 1:41 AM, Alcatraz5768 said:

As said above, wait till the ass end of your windex is pointing at the mark and gybe. Good guide that. 

Will that work in a musto skiff? Won't apparent wind will be well forward of 90 degrees, meaning the ass end of he windex will be pointing back upwind?

Plus, I also doubt any musto's carry windex.  

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7 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

This is a great discussion, thanks all.

 

Yes, it's just like trying to judge laylines to the windward mark from far away. Difficult and often not fruitful, you get caught in a slow lane from far out in a corner.

Another thing to consider..... getting into the right approach lane to the mark for the douse-n-round is just as important, or even much more important if there's traffic. Staying inside the corner and making an extra two gybes can put you in the right spot to stay in fast lane coming into and leaving the mark, which can make the douse easier and cleaner, as well as saving you a few places and saving you from having to fight for clear air on the next upwind leg.

Maybe if you're more of a wizard sailor than me, and you can just make up the difference in blazing speed coming out of that corner on the perfect angle, and shoot in ahead of traffic anyway, it's better. It feels really really good when you can pull that off, it's like a port-tack start at the pin. But most of the time, a little voice in my head says "don't do it, remember what happens 9 out of 10 times when you try this stunt"

FB- Doug

I'm not

Good additional information. We have had to do the soak for too long due to jibing early, also capsized trying to reach a GATE we over stood and couldn't douse due to the hot angle. So we tried to heat up collapsed the chute and swam. So blazing speed YES (For a while)

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11 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Will that work in a musto skiff? Won't apparent wind will be well forward of 90 degrees, meaning the ass end of he windex will be pointing back upwind?

Plus, I also doubt any musto's carry windex.  

I definitely don't carry a windex. I've never seen a Musto with one, or an 800 for that matter. The real issue is not being able to see under the sails. Your 800 videos are great by the way!

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Thanks, I'm glad you likes the videos!

Seeing the mark is definitely a problem. No point having fancy sighting lines / transits if you can't see the buoy in the first instance!

If I'm having issues, I tend to drop low on the wire (if not low already) for a moment, to see under the boom and clew of the spinnaker and possible take a step back to see further downwind.  

 

 

 

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