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Bavaria in administration

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per google translation

Bavaria Insolvent

Fridtjof Gunkel on 20.04.2018

The former largest German shipyard has filed for bankruptcy - According to information available to the boat magazine investors have withdrawn their capital

Difficult weeks lie ahead of the employees of the once largest German sports boatyard. As the boat magazine learned from reliable sources, the shareholders of Oaktree and Anchorage filed for bankruptcy. They do not want to provide any further capital for the maintenance of the business. This is over-indebted on the balance sheet. The liabilities amount to several hundred million euros.

Before that, the shipyard and managing director Lutz Henkel , who had been employed since the beginning of 2015 , reportedly parted ways : whether this was for his financial benefit with a severance payment or as a consequence of the unsuccessful effort to bring the company out of the red in the long term. is unclear.

Both news come as a surprise, after all, Bavaria had attracted attention with a brilliant appearance at the boot Düsseldorf ("Bavaria World") as well as various innovations and demonstrated its strength to the outside world.

Too much of the good and the big? There are some reasons for that. For Henkel's strategy meant a repositioning of Bavaria against the better-placed competition. And internally there were apparently problems. Insiders reported serious production and delivery issues last year after the proven assembly line method had been modified.

The takeover of the French catamaran brand Nautitech in 2014, however, is rated as a success. Given the continued booming cat market and the location of the La Rochelle shipyard on the French Atlantic coast, this piece of meat from the company is likely to be a well-to-sell part of Bavaria if no buyer is found for the entire company construct.

An official statement of the shipyard is in preparation, as well as the appointment of the insolvency administrator.

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Good news !  The sea God is  smiling .!

... the sight of a Bavaria yacht , sails luffing , fenders  hung over the side , , hurts my eyes and these  Bavaria's fill up perfecly good berths all around the world 

the best news would be for Bavaria  to apologize for  the  huge mess they made,   transport  all its old boats back to germany , shred them into polyester fibers , then add the shredded bavarias  into concrete to build something useful  like tombstones 

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18 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

Good news !  The sea God is  smiling .!

... the sight of a Bavaria yacht , sails luffing , fenders  hung over the side , , hurts my eyes and these  Bavaria's fill up perfecly good berths all around the world 

the best news would be for Bavaria  to apologize for  the  huge mess they made,   transport  all its old boats back to germany , shred them into polyester fibers , then add the shredded bavarias  into concrete to build something useful  like tombstones 

 

Okay, so it's not good for one's state of mind to have to speak in code and obscure how one really feels.  I encourage you to speak more plainly...

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Werent they suppliers to a few BVI charter companies? you think they'd be raking it in on orders to replace the ones destroyed by the storms.

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2 minutes ago, TonyFromSheepsheadBay said:

And what have you contributed to society lately?

I wish the innocent folks that are losing their jobs could all shit down your Eastern European servant's class throat. Without boatowners, you're driving an Uber around Gdansk harbor. 

Whoa...an angry reader !!! !

 

whoa !

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11 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

Whoa...an angry reader !!! !

 

whoa !

Would you like to be the pot or the kettle? 

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I guess that means slugo that we should hope that VW goes bankrupt. 

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5 minutes ago, HuronBouy said:

I guess that means slugo that we should hope that VW goes bankrupt. 

If they start driving VWs on the sea and anchoring them in the bay...... then I say yes. 

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While I have never been a fan of Bavaria yachts (especially since they had some keels falling off in the early 2000's), I'm not going to cheer on the demise of another boat builder and the loss of jobs related to it.  Hopefully they will restructure and come out better off with better products.

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6 minutes ago, eliboat said:

While I have never been a fan of Bavaria yachts (especially since they had some keels falling off in the early 2000's), I'm not going to cheer on the demise of another boat builder and the loss of jobs related to it.  Hopefully they will restructure and come out better off with better products.

One dead boatbuilder feeds  work to the rest .

the French will be happy,  , the British will be throwing high fives , the Italians will declare  a public holiday 

they struggle to compete with Bavarias  robot mass produced , 1000 boats per year,, junk .

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Bavaria got squeezed by the massive contraction in monohull new orders, more competitive yards like Hanse Group and Jeanneau. 

The Nauti line of cats are some of the worst sailing catamarans produced in recent memory. Not surprised but sad nevertheless. 

A lot of ppl will need new jobs. 

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1 hour ago, Miffy said:

Bavaria got squeezed by the massive contraction in monohull new orders, more competitive yards like Hanse Group and Jeanneau. 

The Nauti line of cats are some of the worst sailing catamarans produced in recent memory. Not surprised but sad nevertheless. 

A lot of ppl will need new jobs. 

 

How many people can afford to purchase brand new production boats, when there are usually so many slightly used ones, that may need a little refreshing?  Only reason I get a new car from time to time, is it's company paid for, so not spending after tax dollars, that are only 70 cents on the dollars.  I imagine Charter companies can justify new boat purchases, and the truly affluent, but not the average Joe Boater any more...

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3 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Good news !  The sea God is  smiling .!

... the sight of a Bavaria yacht , sails luffing , fenders  hung over the side , , hurts my eyes and these  Bavaria's fill up perfecly good berths all around the world 

the best news would be for Bavaria  to apologize for  the  huge mess they made,   transport  all its old boats back to germany , shred them into polyester fibers , then add the shredded bavarias  into concrete to build something useful  like tombstones 

The more people out on the water sailing, the better and Bavaria has helped achieve that through cheaper access to ownership and by supplying charter fleets. 

I was sailing a charter Bavaria in Greece when I arranged a viewing and booked flights to see the Jeanneau I eventually bought. My experience with that Bavaria and others I had viewed really helped me appreciate the quality of Jeanneau's.

I'm happy for them to come out of their sausage maker production line and I'm happy if they push Jeanneau, Hanse, Beneteau, etc to innovate to stay ahead. I just would not want to own one myself.

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28 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

How many people can afford to purchase brand new production boats, when there are usually so many slightly used ones, that may need a little refreshing?  Only reason I get a new car from time to time, is it's company paid for, so not spending after tax dollars, that are only 70 cents on the dollars.  I imagine Charter companies can justify new boat purchases, and the truly affluent, but not the average Joe Boater any more...

There's more people with money than you might expect. 

The condo cat market is really well. Plenty of niche high performance monohull yards doing well. 

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34 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

but not the average Joe Boater any more...

Since when in history have they ever been able to afford a new yacht?

New yachts are more affordable now then they probably ever have been. Companies like Bavaria have help drive down the used yacht prices and where once upon a time the average Joe could only afford a used trailer sailor, now they can aspire to a used 30+ footer.

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1 hour ago, hoppy said:

Since when in history have they ever been able to afford a new yacht?

New yachts are more affordable now then they probably ever have been. Companies like Bavaria have help drive down the used yacht prices and where once upon a time the average Joe could only afford a used trailer sailor, now they can aspire to a used 30+ footer.

I don't know about that.

In 1983 I bought a brand new 30' with 5 North sails, Datamarine instruments, vhf, bottom painted, commissioned and in the water.  Cost was $36,000.  CPI says that boat should be about $90,000 just taking inflation into account.  Add technology advances, higher tech sails, better construction (questionable), etc. and that boat might cost $115000.  Is there a new 30' racer/cruiser I can buy for that coin in 2018?

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Back then $36K was 18 months to two years pay for an average Joe.

You also got a pretty good price as I remember them.

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12 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Back then $36K was 18 months to two years pay for an average Joe.

You also got a pretty good price as I remember them.

Boat had been in dealer inventory for over a year

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5 hours ago, Miffy said:

Bavaria got squeezed by the massive contraction in monohull new orders, more competitive yards like Hanse Group and Jeanneau. 

The Nauti line of cats are some of the worst sailing catamarans produced in recent memory. Not surprised but sad nevertheless. 

A lot of ppl will need new jobs. 

Really?

Care to elaborate based on your wealth of multihull experience?

 

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6 hours ago, slug zitski said:

One dead boatbuilder feeds  work to the rest .

the French will be happy,  , the British will be throwing high fives , the Italians will declare  a public holiday 

they struggle to compete with Bavarias  robot mass produced , 1000 boats per year,, junk .

I’ve been a dealer for all the big brands and for some really cool custom brands so I consider myself pretty well informed....

That experience leads me to have absolute belief in my view that you are a compete tool.

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10 hours ago, KC375 said:

per google translation

Bavaria Insolvent

 

Fridtjof Gunkel on 20.04.2018

 

The former largest German shipyard has filed for bankruptcy - According to information available to the boat magazine investors have withdrawn their capital

 

Difficult weeks lie ahead of the employees of the once largest German sports boatyard. As the boat magazine learned from reliable sources, the shareholders of Oaktree and Anchorage filed for bankruptcy. They do not want to provide any further capital for the maintenance of the business. This is over-indebted on the balance sheet. The liabilities amount to several hundred million euros.

 

Before that, the shipyard and managing director Lutz Henkel , who had been employed since the beginning of 2015 , reportedly parted ways : whether this was for his financial benefit with a severance payment or as a consequence of the unsuccessful effort to bring the company out of the red in the long term. is unclear.

 

Both news come as a surprise, after all, Bavaria had attracted attention with a brilliant appearance at the boot Düsseldorf ("Bavaria World") as well as various innovations and demonstrated its strength to the outside world.

 

Too much of the good and the big? There are some reasons for that. For Henkel's strategy meant a repositioning of Bavaria against the better-placed competition. And internally there were apparently problems. Insiders reported serious production and delivery issues last year after the proven assembly line method had been modified.

 

The takeover of the French catamaran brand Nautitech in 2014, however, is rated as a success. Given the continued booming cat market and the location of the La Rochelle shipyard on the French Atlantic coast, this piece of meat from the company is likely to be a well-to-sell part of Bavaria if no buyer is found for the entire company construct.

 

An official statement of the shipyard is in preparation, as well as the appointment of the insolvency administrator.

 

And on Hitler's  Birthday no les.

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1 hour ago, newbiesporty said:

I’ve been a dealer for all the big brands and for some really cool custom brands so I consider myself pretty well informed....

That experience leads me to have absolute belief in my view that you are a compete tool.

You don't really need vast experience for that. ;)

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4 minutes ago, Elegua said:

Ah, it's Oaktree. A vulture fund in Europe. 

It's amazing what investor companies can do to companies they buy. While Bavaria still was privately owned in 2007 it was probably the most valuable sailboat yard in the world and one of the very few ones making good profit and having no history of bankrupts. Sure 2008- was difficult times for all sailboat yards, but I still think it was more due to these funds than market. Wasn't it about the same story for Oyster Yachts?

While I'm not a fan of the Bavaria Cruiser line regarding sailing performance and looks of some of the models (especially the early Farr designs around 2010), I really don't think the build quality was bad. They built the hulls in quite a traditional way using PVC core and all the bulkheads etc. and grid were laminated to hull (not to deck) unlike e.g. Beneteau and Jeanneau, which use glued inner liner as grid and glued bulkheads. The boat repair yards consider Bavaria to be clearly superior regarding tolerance to groundings and how they can be repaired after damage. While the performance of the Cruiser line was not great it was neither not any worse than comparable models from Beneteau, Jeanneau, Hanse etc.

Going from J&J to Farr/BMW seemed to be a big mistake. At least around here Bavaria market share went from a clear market leader (30%?) to a very small brand (<<10%) during that shift. The latest models seem to be OK again, but the prices are no longer nearly as attractive as they were 1998-2007.

I have owned a Bavaria 35 Match since 2011 and I'm really happy with it. Sails at least as good as C/R boats from other brands of the same era (or even most current ones) and it seems to be well built with only a few minor issues. I was really happy to see the Match line come in mid 00's with a completely new price range for a performance boat. And sad to see it stopped after 2006. There are three Bavaria 38 Matches in our club and the owners are very pleased with them.

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12 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Good news !  The sea God is  smiling .!

... the sight of a Bavaria yacht , sails luffing , fenders  hung over the side , , hurts my eyes and these  Bavaria's fill up perfecly good berths all around the world 

the best news would be for Bavaria  to apologize for  the  huge mess they made,   transport  all its old boats back to germany , shred them into polyester fibers , then add the shredded bavarias  into concrete to build something useful  like tombstones 

Is this a WW2 thing or did Fritz and Wolfgang 'pig on a spit' your GF?

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Truly. Completely different dollar from 1980's.

What? Another boat builder failed? The horror!

In case you people hadn't noticed, the marine industry collapsed sometime around 2007-2008 and has yet to recover. Whole bunch of folks have been hanging on by their fingernails but at some point they just have to let go. The marine industry is dead and has been for some time.

In the past decade, in the state of Connecticut....which is a fairly wealthy state..... registrations for boats has dropped 40%.  Four in ten boats have just gone away. Yacht Haven closes and from the perspective of where will owners keep those boats, more than a thousand or so, did not present an issue. There are still empty slips and yards not quite packed.

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12 minutes ago, BillDBastard said:

Truly. Completely different dollar from 1980's.

What? Another boat builder failed? The horror!

In case you people hadn't noticed, the marine industry collapsed sometime around 2007-2008 and has yet to recover. Whole bunch of folks have been hanging on by their fingernails but at some point they just have to let go. The marine industry is dead and has been for some time.

In the past decade, in the state of Connecticut....which is a fairly wealthy state..... registrations for boats has dropped 40%.  Four in ten boats have just gone away. Yacht Haven closes and from the perspective of where will owners keep those boats, more than a thousand or so, did not present an issue. There are still empty slips and yards not quite packed.

 

Back in the 80's I waited nearly 10 years for a town mooring permit in Essex Harbor.  There were waiting lists for slips in most boatyards and marinas.  Now there are empty slips and moorings everywhere and, when out racing on Long Island Sound, or Niantic Bay, on a summer weekend, the waters are nearly empty of pleasure craft, compared to 30 years ago. 

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37 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

Back in the 80's I waited nearly 10 years for a town mooring permit in Essex Harbor.  There were waiting lists for slips in most boatyards and marinas.  Now there are empty slips and moorings everywhere and, when out racing on Long Island Sound, or Niantic Bay, on a summer weekend, the waters are nearly empty of pleasure craft, compared to 30 years ago. 

I remember there being multi-year long waiting lists to join yacht clubs. Not the blue blazer, white pants crowd, just your average minimally pretentious joint.  Once you joined there was another multi-year wait for a slip at your club. Within 25 miles of where I live 3 new marinas were built and one was significantly expanded.  Rough guess is that well over 2000 as slips were added to inventory in a decade or so.

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2 minutes ago, jerseyguy said:

I remember there being multi-year long waiting lists to join yacht clubs. Not the blue blazer, white pants crowd, just your average minimally pretentious joint.  Once you joined there was another multi-year wait for a slip at your club. Within 25 miles of where I live 3 new marinas were built and one was significantly expanded.  Rough guess is that well over 2000 as slips were added to inventory in a decade or so.

 

How many of those 2000 new slips are empty now?  It will be interesting to see what changes are made to the many Brewer yards, and marinas, now that Safe Harbors owns them?

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1 minute ago, billy backstay said:

 

How many of those 2000 new slips are empty now?  It will be interesting to see what changes are made to the many Brewer yards, and marinas, now that Safe Harbors owns them?

Best guess is 40-55%.  The one closest to where I live (5 miles or so) was the first of the new ones built.  Last time I was there it was a bit sad.  Lots of empty slips. 

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when did you cunts ever have enough vacation time.  2 weeks a year - fuck that.   when will your pollies realise that vacations create an economy of their own - people travel and spend money on all sorts of shit

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6 minutes ago, Dark Cloud said:

when did you cunts ever have enough vacation time.  2 weeks a year - fuck that.   when will your pollies realise that vacations create an economy of their own - people travel and spend money on all sorts of shit

 

Not all of us!  This lousy paying Contractor at a Mil Spec jet engine plant gives me 4 weeks of paid vacation and another week of paid sick time.  And better health care than the Union guys who make double the hourly, so I can't really complain!  Missus and I are spending quality time off, with our girls in South Carolina, and going back to Europe again with friends, this October, with a Star Clipper cruise...  It's the journey, not the destination, that matters...

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This is a hit for the entire industry, less masts, sails, instruments, engines etc etc will be sold. Not good. The Bavaria brand and its dealership network are still strong, they will find a buyer and come back after restructuring. 

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Assuming there are still the same number of buyers next year as this, won't the fact of less competition from Bavaria strengthen the other brands? Sames number of sales, fewer brand lines, mean more sales for those remaining brand lines, yes/no? And doesn't the same amount of sales overall mean the same amount  of masts, sails, blocks, cordage etc also gets sold?

?

color me stupid

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Investor bought the yard for way to much money, sold shares 40% IIRC, put the bill of the sale on the depth of the company.

Years later, they were not very profitable, as the huge depth still stands on the balance. Needed to refinance, no partners willing, asked for administration.

So in short, they did not do bad, but they were so stupid to pay to much for the company.

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35 minutes ago, LeoV said:

Investor bought the yard for way to much money, sold shares 40% IIRC, put the bill of the sale on the depth of the company.

Years later, they were not very profitable, as the huge depth still stands on the balance. Needed to refinance, no partners willing, asked for administration.

So in short, they did not do bad, but they were so stupid to pay to much for the company.

As the previous investors in Oyster discovered. 

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36 minutes ago, LeoV said:

Investor bought the yard for way to much money, sold shares 40% IIRC, put the bill of the sale on the depth of the company.

Years later, they were not very profitable, as the huge depth still stands on the balance. Needed to refinance, no partners willing, asked for administration.

So in short, they did not do bad, but they were so stupid to pay to much for the company.

 

Corporate Vulture Capitalists strike again!!  And many lose their jobs, so that a few obscenely wealthy folks can get wealthier; something is wrong with this picture.....

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Ask the right wingers here about it - they'll explain why it's good for the world.

JerKZ will have the best explanation of all, I guarantee it.

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2007;

profit Bavaria under old owners; 83million

Bain bought it for 1.1 billion.

2009

financial problems, almost bankrupt, sale of 90 % shares (so I recalled half, not bad) to US private equity investors Anchorage Advisors and Oaktree Capital Management, which each took 45 percent of shares in October 2009. (oaktree owned part of the money lender to Bain, so sucked into the deal)

Interest on loans is higher then profits.

2018

Investors stops paying the debt.

So it was not a quick steal, so I doubt it was vulture gains. Lots of parties lost a lot of money.

https://www.fnlondon.com/articles/bain-to-hand-bavaria-yachtbau-tiller-to-oaktree-20090925

 

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Once again the old adage is confirmed:

how to become a millionaire in the boat business.  Start out with 2 million and get out quick.

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That's the business model for vulture capitalists - buy a solid company, load it with debt, sell off anything worthwhile and get out.

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15 hours ago, TonyFromSheepsheadBay said:

 

Using the same logic, please compare and contrast the prices of new loaves of bread 35 years apart, and explain why Average Joe hasn't starved to death. 

They're using the money which previously would have been used to buy new boats to now buy new loaves of bread.

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Well when folks have to work 109 days out of a year.... and in reality work 250 days out of the year..... just to pay federal and state income taxes (forget about all the hidden taxes like corporate, sales taxes and user fees, it is a wonder anyone can afford boats in the first place. Taxes are an Americans' single biggest expense and bigger than food, clothing and housing COMBINED that the average individual spends their income . So if you want to know why folks can't afford boats or any recreational activities, look to your behavior in the voting booth.

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I don't know man....if you look at the number of 2nd or vacation homes, the number of RVs or expensive powerboats that sell each year it's hard to say sailboats are not affordable.

I think they really are affordable for a great many people/families, it's just that a sailboat does not match their needs as well as the 2nd or vacation home, RV or powerboat.

Want to boost sailboat sales? Make either the purchase or maintenance 100% tax deductible!

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5 hours ago, BillDBastard said:

Well when folks have to work 109 days out of a year.... and in reality work 250 days out of the year..... just to pay federal and state income taxes (forget about all the hidden taxes like corporate, sales taxes and user fees, it is a wonder anyone can afford boats in the first place. Taxes are an Americans' single biggest expense and bigger than food, clothing and housing COMBINED that the average individual spends their income . So if you want to know why folks can't afford boats or any recreational activities, look to your behavior in the voting booth.

Here's the breakdown of where the money goes as of 2016:

Most of Budget Goes Toward Defense, Social Security, and Major Health Programs

Fully half goes to Social Security and Medicaid, which I and most people will benefit from after retirement so I consider about half of my taxes to be roughly equivalent to "forced savings". Note that with rising interest rates and our unending and largely debt-financed wars and other debt drivers like the recent tax cuts, the interest on the debt will be growing rapidly as a fraction of the budget going forward. 

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On 21/4/2018 at 7:33 PM, billy backstay said:

 

Corporate Vulture Capitalists strike again!!  And many lose their jobs, so that a few obscenely wealthy folks can get wealthier; something is wrong with this picture.....

13aa12ba4f88b13215af6937fff719b7.jpg

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9 hours ago, BillDBastard said:

Well when folks have to work 109 days out of a year.... and in reality work 250 days out of the year..... just to pay federal and state income taxes (forget about all the hidden taxes like corporate, sales taxes and user fees, it is a wonder anyone can afford boats in the first place. Taxes are an Americans' single biggest expense and bigger than food, clothing and housing COMBINED that the average individual spends their income . So if you want to know why folks can't afford boats or any recreational activities, look to your behavior in the voting booth.

Why is boat ownership so high in the scandinavian socialist countries that clearly have a much higher tax rate than us?

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7 minutes ago, MauiPunter said:

Why is boat ownership so high in the scandinavian socialist countries that clearly have a much higher tax rate than us?

Take a look at the average earnings compared to a lot of other countries. 

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6 minutes ago, MauiPunter said:

Why is boat ownership so high in the scandinavian socialist countries that clearly have a much higher tax rate than us?

For comparison from when I lived in Sweden..

As a self employed person if you had 100k to pay yourself a salary, first to must pay 32% social tax (this is hidden from employees), so there goes the first 25k leaving your actual salary as 75k. About 40% of your salary will go to income taxes, so that's another 30k leaving you with 45k arriving in your bank account. Lets just say you live rent free and don't save, so you spend all of your money, then you will pay 25% tax on goods and services, so you've paid another 11.25k on taxes.

So for every 100k you pay yourself (or 75k if you are an employee) you will have paid 66.25k leaving 33.75k going into the private sector economy. The 66.26k is the worse case as you do pay lower tax on some items and you normally pay rent or a mortgage, but then again it gets much worse as you earn more and hit the top tax bracket.

 

Boat ownership is probably higher because the money Americans spend on fast food at McDonalds etc.. is saved by Scandis for their boat purchase :) 

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14 minutes ago, mad said:

Take a look at the average earnings compared to a lot of other countries. 

Looking at the average is a BS comparison...

Scandi countries don't have the bargain basement slave labour poverty salary rates that the US, UK and other countries that drag down the average salary statistic.

If you are doing the same job at the comfortable end of the pay scale, the type of person who can start dreaming of nice things, then the salary is not so great in scandiland.

 I know that in IT, the salary between Sweden, UK and Aus is not that big a difference (Sweden is actually lower than Aus) however as a consultant with your own company, you can charge through the roof in Sweden, way beyond what you can do in many other countries. 

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22 minutes ago, mad said:

Take a look at the average earnings compared to a lot of other countries. 

mmmm.... than explain En Zed. If I'm not mistaken, highest % of boat ownership of any country.

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It's all about priorities... what luxuries or comforts you want in life...

Swedes are very tight arsed with their money, especially when they have a family. So rather than going out after work socialising or going out to restaurants, they will eat and drink at home, which often is an apartment and maybe a subsidised rental. They may not even have a car if they live in the centre of a bigger city and rarely would have two cars in the family. Then they can put aside money to buy a boat, if that's their thing.

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On 2018-04-20 at 2:28 PM, slug zitski said:

Good news !  The sea God is  smiling .!

... the sight of a Bavaria yacht , sails luffing , fenders  hung over the side , , hurts my eyes and these  Bavaria's fill up perfecly good berths all around the world 

the best news would be for Bavaria  to apologize for  the  huge mess they made,   transport  all its old boats back to germany , shred them into polyester fibers , then add the shredded bavarias  into concrete to build something useful  like tombstones 

Funny, that. I was just about to say the same about J24’s...

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So for the Bavaria haters, it seems like your ideal is to rid the world of the plebeian Chevy and then everyone will buy Maserati. Cause that’s how it works in your world.

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On 4/21/2018 at 5:45 AM, eliboat said:

While I have never been a fan of Bavaria yachts (especially since they had some keels falling off in the early 2000's), I'm not going to cheer on the demise of another boat builder and the loss of jobs related to it.  Hopefully they will restructure and come out better off with better products.

That old chestnut! No axe to grind either way re Bavaria but in their defense, do a little research. Many more keels have been lost off Beneteau boats than  off Bavarias. They just did a better job of hushing it up.

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

What impact will this tits up have on the price of particle board with the sudden glut??? 

What's a particle board?

 

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27 minutes ago, MauiPunter said:

What's a particle board?

 

Low-Density Fibreboard (LDF), and Chipboard are two other common names.

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while the quality of some of their offerings was absolutely atrocious (I worked on a chartebase in the 90ies & we had some Bavs - I saw incredible things on some of them...) in their defense it has to be said that many people had a lot of fun on them, people who otherwise could not have afforded "big-boat" sailing. Of course the Hungarian who perished when a Match lost her keel didn't think so...)

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3 hours ago, tane said:

while the quality of some of their offerings was absolutely atrocious (I worked on a chartebase in the 90ies & we had some Bavs - I saw incredible things on some of them...) in their defense it has to be said that many people had a lot of fun on them, people who otherwise could not have afforded "big-boat" sailing. Of course the Hungarian who perished when a Match lost her keel didn't think so...)

like this : with a couple of friends we rented a Bav34 in Thailand for a big week, all ok as long as conditions were fairly calm, but the day we had to go back and it was wind over tide, that was one hell of an eyeopener, each time the yacht fell off a wave (we tried to avoid but no other option ) you saw the coachroof flexing heavily, the mast tried to drive itself straight through the roof, silliest moment was when one went to the loo, came back out with a big grin and holding two screws in his hand, the boat was literally unscrewing the woodwork because it was lfexing all over the place, not really a safe feeling. But yes, loads of people in europistan had Bavs and enjoyed them.

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16 hours ago, hoppy said:

 

As a self employed person if you had 100k to pay yourself a salary, first to must pay 32% social tax (this is hidden from employees), so there goes the first 25k leaving your actual salary as 75k.

In what world is 32% of 100k 25k???

My math says it's 32k.

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7 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Low-Density Fibreboard (LDF), and Chipboard are two other common names.

OSB - Oriented Strand Board

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I've never seen OSB used on a boat. That's the stuff made up of what looks like plane shavings.

Lots of particle board though. That's the stuff that's made up of sawdust & resin.

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Interesting that no one is questioning the reign of Lutz Henkel.  He burst on the scene here in the US

by closing down the Bavaria display at the Annapolis Boat Show. Didn't exactly due Salona any favors

when he ran that company.  I

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17 hours ago, hoppy said:

It's all about priorities... what luxuries or comforts you want in life...

Swedes are very tight arsed with their money, especially when they have a family. So rather than going out after work socialising or going out to restaurants, they will eat and drink at home, which often is an apartment and maybe a subsidised rental. They may not even have a car if they live in the centre of a bigger city and rarely would have two cars in the family. Then they can put aside money to buy a boat, if that's their thing.

tight arsed ?  Swedes  are drunk with debt 

IMG_8582.PNG

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I think I got the history right, or close.

In 2007 Bain bought Bavaria for $1.1 BILLION, spectacularly overpaying just before the start of the financial crisis. The old ownership made out like bandits, but pretty much doomed the company.

In 2009 Bain has had enough, and takes a US$400M loss selling to Oaktree. To minimize their exposure, Oaktree places most of the cost of the sale on the Bavaria books as debit. All is well as long as you can service the debt. Apparent that day is past.

But here's the thing. I once came into a company after such an event as part of new management. The CEO (who was from the Capital Company) told me that they way they work is to tell ailing company to not call them until its the absolutely last resort. One step before shutting down the place down in liquidation. Because its going to be a crappy deal, but beats the doors closing. That's where Bain was. The last buy in 2009 gave Bavaria a chance.

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1 hour ago, Parma said:

In what world is 32% of 100k 25k???

My math says it's 32k.

A world where you pay tax on your salary of 75K not your business' income of 100K (and round up a bit, because it's the principle, not the detail, that's important, and the income tax isn't flat-rate, anyway).

Cheers, 

              W.

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48 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

tight arsed ?  Swedes  are drunk with debt 

IMG_8582.PNG

% of disposable income?

You understand finance about as well as everything else.

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2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

% of disposable income?

You understand finance about as well as everything else.

Yes poor old Slug suffers from that problem that some people who clean rich people's boats do. Because they spend their days on wealthy men's toys, they forget that they are nothing but lowly help and start to develop a fantasy where they are part of that socioeconomic  group. As a financial adviser he makes a good boat detailer. 

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On 2018-04-21 at 9:16 AM, Dark Cloud said:

when did you cunts ever have enough vacation time.  2 weeks a year - fuck that.   when will your pollies realise that vacations create an economy of their own - people travel and spend money on all sorts of shit

See bizarre American auto commercial: :wacko:

 

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On 2018-04-20 at 3:45 PM, eliboat said:

While I have never been a fan of Bavaria yachts ... I'm not going to cheer on the demise of another boat builder and the loss of jobs related to it.

Schumpeter suggests that crummy makers like Bavaria deserve to go out of business, thus clearing the way for newer, better manufacturers.

innovativeness-creative-destruction-n.jp

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2 minutes ago, Svanen said:

Schumpeter suggests that crummy makers like Bavaria deserve to go out of business, thus clearing the way for newer, better manufacturers.

innovativeness-creative-destruction-n.jp

yes, but there was nothing wrong with the business model. It was the debt caused by the ownership change. Ala Toys-R-Us.

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6 hours ago, Parma said:

In what world is 32% of 100k 25k???

My math says it's 32k.

The pot of money is 100k... You are paid a salary from that 100k and on top of the salary you must pay an extra 32% So your salary needs to be 75k and the tax 25k, a total of 100k.

When you are an employee, you only see the 75k as your salary and don't give a fuck that your rich employer has to pay an extra 32% for the privilege of employing you. It makes the average Swede think that the income tax is not so bad, but anyone who is self employed or has half a brain will understand that this 32% is a tax on your income and thus a "hidden" income tax.

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5 hours ago, slug zitski said:

tight arsed ?  Swedes  are drunk with debt 

IMG_8582.PNG

Try living among them in Sweden and you will understand....

 

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1 hour ago, hoppy said:

Try living among them in Sweden and you will understand....

 

Why would you wish that on them? However he will explain to the them in his superior manner, how an Allan Key works.

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58 minutes ago, Svanen said:

Lagom-ar-bast.jpg

 

Precis som bast? Vad fan är en "bast"?

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"...quality (& the lack of it!!!) remains long after the price has been forgotten..."

what we (& I include myself!) forget when damning the "quality" of the Bavs: this is the rock-bottom end of the market, pricewise, & can qualitywise only be the same!

basically their demise has to be greeted with relief, as the unsuspecting public has to be protected from those things that I came across on some...

(OTOH: oyster...?)

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2 hours ago, tane said:

"...quality (& the lack of it!!!) remains long after the price has been forgotten..."

what we (& I include myself!) forget when damning the "quality" of the Bavs: this is the rock-bottom end of the market, pricewise, & can qualitywise only be the same!

basically their demise has to be greeted with relief, as the unsuspecting public has to be protected from those things that I came across on some...

(OTOH: oyster...?)

Which is why the news is rife with reports of Bavarias sinking due to poor build quality. Oh, wait.

I appreciate a quality build as much as the next guy but Bavaria got a lot of people out on the water, safely, in new or used boats who otherwise wouldn't have been able to afford it. That keeps marinas, component manufacturers, retailers, yards, and other marine businesses  open for the rest of us. Like it or not, the Bavarias, Hunters, Beneteaus, Catalinas, and, yes MacGregors of the world do all of us who sail a big favor. Whether they realize it or not, The 1% owe 99% of what they have to The 99%.

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29 minutes ago, IStream said:

I appreciate a quality build as much as the next guy but Bavaria got a lot of people out on the water, safely, in new or used boats who otherwise wouldn't have been able to afford it. That keeps marinas, component manufacturers, retailers, yards, and other marine businesses  open for the rest of us.

That might be true if there was a severe shortage of affordable, well-built second/third/fourthhand boats. But that is simply not the case. GRP yachts last almost indefinitely.

There is not an infinite amount of money available for sailing (or any other recreation): it's essentially a zero-sum game. Bavaria simply diverted money that otherwise would have been spent on purchasing, equipping, maintaining and housing other manufacturers' boats.

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30 minutes ago, IStream said:

Which is why the news is rife with reports of Bavarias sinking due to poor build quality. Oh, wait.

I appreciate a quality build as much as the next guy but Bavaria got a lot of people out on the water, safely, in new or used boats who otherwise wouldn't have been able to afford it. That keeps marinas, component manufacturers, retailers, yards, and other marine businesses  open for the rest of us. Like it or not, the Bavarias, Hunters, Beneteaus, Catalinas, and, yes MacGregors of the world do all of us who sail a big favor. Whether they realize it or not, The 1% owe 99% of what they have to The 99%.

IStream, my earlier post said just this...

HOWEVER: how much "FUN" on the water would be needed to "make up" for the one casualty (a Hungarian drowned when the match lost her keel)?

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15 minutes ago, Svanen said:

Vem vet? Jag tror att det ska vara ett skämt ... inte så kul.

I sure don't get it. Must be an inside joke.

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