rb_stretch

Bavaria in administration

Recommended Posts

Any such list is inherently subjective. Personally, I would elevate H-R and Hylas to the top tier. I don’t have much experience with either brand, but the few I have sailed were well designed and built. They seemed equal to Oysters and Swans, of which I have rather more experience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, MauiPunter said:

Yea, my list was a starting point.  Some adjustments are needed.  Was looking for feedback on my first attempt.  Interested in seeing what people think.

 

I don’t get it. Its personal bias and limited objective perspective. Many dead brands on your list, and some exist as marketing brands only. I doubt you’ve been on 80% of them. CNB is owned by Beneteau. Pay more get more. Who knew? What’s the real point?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Parma said:

Or simply cause them to buy a different brand. I can't imagine that someone out looking for a new sailboat will not buy anything  because there are no new Bavarias for sale. They just won't be looking at new Bavarias, but will instead be looking at new boats from all the remaining brands.

Some will, some won't. I don't think any other builder with a strong marketing machine in the EU has taken the low-price floating-caravan model to its logical conclusion to the same extent that Bavaria did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Jackdaw said:

 

I don’t get it. Its personal bias and limited objective perspective. Many dead brands on your list, and some exist as marketing brands only. I doubt you’ve been on 80% of them. CNB is owned by Beneteau. Pay more get more. Who knew? What’s the real point?

 

 

Say I'm looking for a thirty footer. I run a search and get forty boats, most of them miles away.  Don't have time or inclination to look at all of them. Which ones are worth a trip? From the list above a Moody might be better built, better cared for than a Jenneau or Dehler, so maybe try there first.

 If a dead brand means they are no longer in business making new boats or have been bought out, like Moody, then the list gives an idea what the older boats are like.

 The personal bias and subjective pov could be offset by aggregating opinion... lots of collective experience here and no-one's expecting every Swan to be perfect and every Dehler to be a wreck...

Cheers,

               W.

  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Some will, some won't. I don't think any other builder with a strong marketing machine in the EU has taken the low-price floating-caravan model to its logical conclusion to the same extent that Bavaria did.

People dont actually buy a Bavaria...they fall victim ..to fast talking charter company salesman ,  cheap bank financing .....turning them into bulk  charter boats...thousands of them... stacked up like cordwood.....the world is overflowing with them ...whole harbours completly full of  beat up , smelly, sunburnt , 3 year is old bavarias 

IMG_8591.JPG

IMG_8592.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

Say I'm looking for a thirty footer. I run a search and get forty boats, most of them miles away.  Don't have time or inclination to look at all of them. Which ones are worth a trip? From the list above a Moody might be better built, better cared for than a Jenneau or Dehler, so maybe try there first.

 If a dead brand means they are no longer in business making new boats or have been bought out, like Moody, then the list gives an idea what the older boats are like.

 The personal bias and subjective pov could be offset by aggregating opinion... lots of collective experience here and no-one's expecting every Swan to be perfect and every Dehler to be a wreck...

Cheers,

               W.

  

Yep. I guess my bigger point was that there is no magic formula for building boats, they are very labor and material intensive. So more expensive ones are going to be 'better', better techniques, better materials, better parts. They pick the niche they are in. VAG makes decent entry level cars called VWs, up market they have Audi. Top rung and its Lambo. All have sound engineering.

The only time I've got an issue with them is when they end up not being what you expected (Oyster?), or they try and sell them selves as more than they are (McGregor).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

joakim, I only have a small sector of the market, & then only 90ies boats to compare: I can compare only Bav, Feeling, Gibsea, Ovni on the base & our own Pouvreau 11.30 (before starting to work on the base I always found quite a few points on our P.11.10 I criticized...after working a while on the said other products my verdict of our P11.30 was much less harsh, much!!!)

there were inexcusable issues on the Feelings, Gibseas (& Ovnis too) to be seen, worst were the end-80ies Bavs, one deathtrap still in my mind...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/25/2018 at 8:13 AM, MauiPunter said:

Yea, my list was a starting point.  Some adjustments are needed.  Was looking for feedback on my first attempt.  Interested in seeing what people think.

 

On 4/25/2018 at 1:24 PM, Jackdaw said:

 

I don’t get it. Its personal bias and limited objective perspective. Many dead brands on your list, and some exist as marketing brands only. I doubt you’ve been on 80% of them. CNB is owned by Beneteau. Pay more get more. Who knew? What’s the real point?

I agree with JD that such a list is pretty pointless in the absence of a through objective analysis and that price, with the exception of a few expensive shitters, is the best measure. It is also pretty hard to justify doing that objective analysis unless it also breaks boats down into a use category. It is also a list for one snapshot in time.

For instance such a list is worthless for manufacturers who make different boats for different categories but then someone tries to place that manufacturer on a single list. The Beneteau consortium (also incl Jeaneau etc) is one that comes to mind in that regard. Also comparing older boats using this list is worthless on account manufacturers change placement and the form of their offering over time.

One example of that is large First Series Beneteau's circa late 80's to mid 90's were pretty close to Swans of the same size on account those larger Beneteau's (not their charter products) were bordering on being built to order . From the mid 90's onwards that changed when Beneteau started chasing a wider market, streamlining production techniques and cutting the guts out of cost irrespective of where that product stood in the market. Swan on the other hand went the other way to the extent they ultimately walked away from producing sub 50 footers on account they were priced above what the market would pay, yet they were selling them at little more than cost.     

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

 

One example of that is large First Series Beneteau's circa late 80's to mid 90's were pretty close to Swans of the same size on account those larger Beneteau's (not their charter products) were bordering on being built to order . From the mid 90's onwards that changed when Beneteau started chasing a wider market, streamlining production techniques and cutting the guts out of cost irrespective of where that product stood in the market. Swan on the other hand went the other way to the extent they ultimately walked away from producing sub 50 footers on account they were priced above what the market would pay, yet they were selling them at little more than cost.     

Indeed. The First 38 was one well built boat, and a touch fucker. Many of them converted to full on cruisers and have done laps. The 36.7 I owned was a nicely designed boat, but you could see the 'process efficiencies' help keep costs down but effect quality both in the long and short term. In the short term it was hard to argue with the value for money. I bet it took more hours to build my old First 235 then it took them to throw a 367 together.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2018-04-23 at 12:43 AM, hoppy said:

It's all about priorities... what luxuries or comforts you want in life...

Swedes are very tight arsed with their money, especially when they have a family. So rather than going out after work socialising or going out to restaurants, they will eat and drink at home, which often is an apartment and maybe a subsidised rental. They may not even have a car if they live in the centre of a bigger city and rarely would have two cars in the family. Then they can put aside money to buy a boat, if that's their thing.

Hm, were you sober any time you lived in Sweden?

Stockholm has more restaurants than most cities / capita. 

More than 60% of all households in Sweden live in their own house.

Average number of cars in Sweden is about 1.5 / household.

As Sweden actually is a small country with few citizen then Stockholm is the only real city, all other are considerably smaller towns. If living in Stockholm centre, which is quite small, there is no real need for a car, for living in any other place at least one car is a must. 

Being tight arsed about money is an old tradition, Scandinavian / Nordic countries have been poor for centuries. Todays wealth is relative new.

//J

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had a builder of custom boats get on my new 37 footer production boat (in the bottom third of the above list) and and while looking through it to do some work for me he estimated 900 hours of labour to put mine together.  From his shop  he said a 37 footer was 3500 hours (if memory serves). So what is the difference ?? I am unsure.  His are certainly  pretty and I am sure tough and well planned and thought out. But does the build quality actually play it self out over the lifetime of owner??? 

I bought new as I was sick and tired of pouring thousands of dollars into a 35 year old boat and it did nothing to the increase value or make me at ease as to what would bust next when out with my family in the middle of Lake Huron.  Now 10 years later I have had no major issues and those I had at the beginning were covered under warranty.   And it is not a lightly used boat I put about 1000 nm on it each summer and race the piss out of it.

Maybe my brand should be in 2nd tier ??? But I don't think so.  My point is that maybe they are all more or less O.K. within the twenty years they are first built. Except for McGregor of course.

So a custom build is really something  that I would only buy if I could do it without thinking about cost and I just wanted a really nice toy.  

 mp

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Saw this on facebook.

 

 

31739908_10155802451176032_3482161700352819200_n.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 01/05/2018 at 11:51 AM, Jaramaz said:

Hm, were you sober any time you lived in Sweden?

I earn't good enough money to buy my boat, but to stay drunk without resorting to home brew, no way.

On 01/05/2018 at 11:51 AM, Jaramaz said:

Stockholm has more restaurants than most cities / capita. 

In Sweden perhaps, Scandinavia possible, Europe no way, world LOL

http://www.worldcitiescultureforum.com/data/number-of-restaurants-per-100.000-population

On 01/05/2018 at 11:51 AM, Jaramaz said:

More than 60% of all households in Sweden live in their own house.

Average number of cars in Sweden is about 1.5 / household.

As Sweden actually is a small country with few citizen then Stockholm is the only real city, all other are considerably smaller towns. If living in Stockholm centre, which is quite small, there is no real need for a car, for living in any other place at least one car is a must. 

More talking in the cities (i.e. Stockholm) because I could not care less about life outside of a big city, no mater what country it is...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, hoppy said:

I earn't good enough money to buy my boat, but to stay drunk without resorting to home brew, no way.

In Sweden perhaps, Scandinavia possible, Europe no way, world LOL

http://www.worldcitiescultureforum.com/data/number-of-restaurants-per-100.000-population

More talking in the cities (i.e. Stockholm) because I could not care less about life outside of a big city, no mater what country it is...

 

So, not considering a tree change here Hop ?  I quite like the country - if I wasn't stuck in this city in order to earn $ to continue to sail in PPB then, id prob prefer the 'sticks' - each to their own

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Dark Cloud said:

So, not considering a tree change here Hop ?  I quite like the country - if I wasn't stuck in this city in order to earn $ to continue to sail in PPB then, id prob prefer the 'sticks' - each to their own

Hell no, happy living inner city with the boat nearby. I probably could survive in Martha Cove with a racer parked out the front, but is a long way from civilisation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, hoppy said:

More talking in the cities (i.e. Stockholm) because I could not care less about life outside of a big city, no mater what country it is...

Suspected so: you lived in Stockholm City inner parts for some limited time and then you make sweeping statements about Sweden and swedes.  

You have no idea ...

 

//J

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Jaramaz said:

Suspected so: you lived in Stockholm City inner parts for some limited time and then you make sweeping statements about Sweden and swedes.  

You have no idea ...

 

//J

16 years, limited?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://www.tradeonlytoday.com/manufacturers/malibu-reports-q3-financial-results

Malibu Boats reported an 82 percent increase in net sales, to $140.4 million, in the third quarter and a 69.4 percent uptick in unit volume, to 1,786 boats, versus the year prior.

Gross profit for the quarter increased $15 million, or 70.2 percent, to $36.4 million versus the third quarter in 2017, driven by the company’s acquisition of Cobalt Boatslast summer.

Cost of sales increased $48.3 million, or 86.5 percent, to $104.1 million, compared to 2017, which the company attributed to the Cobalt purchase and an increase in unit volumes in Malibu’s U.S. business.

Gross margin for the quarter decreased 180 basis points, from 27.7 percent to 25.9 percent, over the same period in the prior fiscal year due to the acquisition of Cobalt and an increase in unit volumes.

“The results of the third quarter were strong,” Malibu CEO Jack Springer said in a statement. “This performance continues to be driven by robust retail demand in the United States, along with Malibu’s operating efficiencies. Channel inventories are at or near optimum levels, which is inspiring dealer confidence despite unfavorable weather during the early-spring selling season.”

The company’s 2018 model year boats are performing well, including new Cobalt models, Springer said.

“From an operational perspective, the Cobalt integration is going smoothly, and the Cobalt team is immersing itself into our culture,” Springer said. “Further, our operational excellence initiatives continue to drive improvement at Malibu, and it is having a quicker and better impact with the Cobalt integration than originally anticipated.”

On the international front, Canada continues its slow recovery, while Australia — Malibu’s second largest market — remains a contributor, Springer said.

“Lastly, market share gains are accelerating for both Malibu and Cobalt, where we already hold a commanding lead,” he said.

Adjusted EBITDA increased 70.1 percent to $28.5 million, compared to the third quarter of fiscal 2017.

Operating income for the third quarter increased to $23.9 million from $13 million, and net income increased 89.9 percent to $16.8 million from $8.8 million; net income margin increased to 12 percent from 11.5 percent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://www.tradeonlytoday.com/manufacturers/marquis-larson-boat-group-cancels-dealer-meeting

The Marquis-Larson Boat Group cancelled its dealer open house, scheduled for Aug. 19-21, because of strong new-boat demand, a transition between plants and dozens of job openings that remain unfilled.

“I’m about 40 people short. I’m trying to hire day in and day out, and I’m moving my assembly lines,” president and CEO Rob Parmentier told Trade Only Today. “Work force has been difficult. I didn’t anticipate this when we closed the plant in Minnesota. Everywhere I travel I see help-wanted signs. I know all my compadres on the NMMA board are experiencing the same difficulties.”

The company has made more than 150 engineering changes to the Larson FX line, Parmentier said, which has resulted in “people really loving those boats.”

“We’re bucking the trend on Carvers. We have seen none of the slowdown reflected in the SSI data,” Parmentier said. “We retailed eight in the last 10 days. I’d much rather be here than begging for orders. … But it’s still a difficult position.”

Parmentier explained the situation in a letter to dealers:

“From the lean manufacturing processes underway, moving Carver lamination and assembly areas from the building behind the corporate office to across the street and reorganizing that area to free up space to be solely for Larson Boat Group production. The ramping up and preparation for the next Lexus yacht for production and getting the new Striper 250 WA ready for its debut, an open house would add unwanted additional strain to the organization. Again, for these reasons, we are canceling this year’s open house as planned.”

The company is working to fill open positions, recruiting at high schools, holding open houses, doing billboards and radio ads, and visiting cities with higher unemployment.

“Everything in the universe, we’re doing,” Parmentier said. “Some of it’s getting some traction. We even partnered with a local minimum-security prison, and that’s working out great. Everybody deserves a second chance, and they’ve paid their dues. … It’s a chance for them to get their feet back on the ground, and they’ve been some of the best workers we’ve hired.”

The company will continue to hold webinars and virtual training, and keep information flowing.

“We’re not going to let that fall by the wayside,” Parmentier said. “What it came down to was, do I build more boats or do I stop and put a party on? Dealers want more boats.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://www.tradeonlytoday.com/manufacturers/brunswick-steps-up-boston-whaler-expansion

Brunswick Corp. is continuing expansion of its Boston Whaler facilities due to strong demand of larger boats.

“It’s a multiyear expansion relative to Whaler,” Brunswick CEO Mark Schwabero told investors and analysts during a call Thursday to discuss first-quarter financial results. “But it is in response to strong demand, and it probably [began] a bit earlier than we would have anticipated when we did initial expansion a year ago. Demand for the product has well outpaced our expectation.”

The current expansion will help Boston Whaler increase production of larger models, Schwabero said.

The company is also addressing raw material pricing fluctuations it anticipates as a result of aluminum and steel tariffs, Schwabero said.

“We buy very very little foreign aluminum as well,” Schwabero said. “The thing you’ve seen though is, obviously aluminum prices are going up. When there were actions around Russia, we saw the stuff spike; they pulled some of that away, prices almost overnight dropped about 10 percent. So there’s a lot of volatility in the aluminum market.”

The volatility isn’t a function of the tariff, but a function of how the domestic market will respond to the tariffs being in place, Schwabero said.

“Fundamentally we think everyone will be affected equally, and it’s probably going to result in pricing [increases] across the board in the industry, which isn’t material enough, in our opinion, to really change the demand profile and therefore shouldn’t impact our margin profile,” Schwabero said.

The company has already been adjusting pricing in part because of anticipated tariffs and in part due to inflation.

Pontoon prices were particularly affected by pricing increases, Schwabero said. 

“We have some of those announcements,” Schwabero said. “Typically this time of year we’re doing pricing for model year 2019. We already factored some in and we will continue to look at pricing.”

The company said its engine segment continues to grow, despite parts and accessories being off in the first quarter due to bad weather. 

Brunswick has invested around $1.1 billion into the Mercury business from 2011 to 2017, Schwabero said.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://www.tradeonlytoday.com/manufacturers/beneteau-sales-up-in-first-half-of-2018

Group Beneteau’s revenues are up 10.5 percent in the first half of the fiscal year, with increases in the boat division attributed to strong European sales.

The boat division reported a 1-point improvement in profitability ...

As of Feb. 28, the order book for the boat business was up 15.2 percent at constant exchange rates.

The boat division generated revenues of 378.1 million euros (about $456.7 million), up 10.5 percent at constant exchange rates compared with the first half of the previous year.

The boat division’s growth is being driven by sales in European markets. 

Sales for North and Central America and fleets increased slightly during the first half of the year, with orders as of March 31 up 6.4 percent and 20.7 percent, respectively, for the two regions at constant exchange rates.

The boat division expects full-year revenue growth at 8 to 10 percent at constant exchange rates, outpacing the market due to sustained level of orders.

Group Beneteau is raising its revenue target for fiscal years 2019 to 2020 to 1.5 billion euros ($1.8 billion), up from 1.4 billion euros ($1.7 billion) previously. 

The current operating margin has also been revised upwards and is expected to reach 8.5 to 9 percent at constant exchange rates (exchange rate used in the plan presented in June 2017), with around 130 million euros ($150.1 million) in income from ordinary operations, versus 115 million euros ($138.9 million) previously.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://www.tradeonlytoday.com/manufacturers/brunswick-releases-first-quarter-sales

Brunswick Corp. announced that consolidated net sales increased 7 percent in the first quarter, with the marine engine segment up 9 percent and the boat segment rising 7 percent over last year.

For the first quarter of 2018, Brunswick reported net earnings of $80.5 million, or $0.91 per diluted share, compared with net earnings of $74.2 million, or $0.81 per diluted share, for the first quarter of 2017. 

"Our marine businesses continue to benefit from strong demand for outboard boats and engines, successful new products, and our strategy to grow the parts and accessories businesses,” said Brunswick CEO Mark Schwabero in a statement. “As a result, our marine businesses had revenue growth of 8 percent in the quarter, with a very strong increase in operating earnings versus first quarter 2017.”

Engines

The marine engine segment reported net sales of $687.1 million in the first quarter, up 9 percent from $631.8 million in the first quarter of 2017.

Boats

The boat segment reported net sales of $304 million, up from $284.9 million in the first quarter of 2017, and operating earnings of $24.7, up from operating earnings of $16.2 million in the same period last year.

Operations of Sea Ray, which the Brunswick said it wanted to sell in December, were not included in the financial results.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://www.tradeonlytoday.com/manufacturers/ferretti-group-experienced-strong-growth-in-2017

Ferretti Group said it will hire 80 people across its five Italian shipyards after it experienced double-digit growth in 2017.

 

“The numbers prove it: thanks to the decisive support of the Weichai Group and Mr. Piero Ferrari, the company has achieved a record profit this year, rose to 24 million euros,” Galassi said. “By decision of the shareholders, the cycle profit will be entirely reinvested in research and development on new models, which will be added to the 30 developed in recent years. The production capacity of the group's six shipyards and the workforce also grew, demonstrating that yachting, if managed at best, creates important job opportunities in Italy as well.” 

From 2015 to the end of 2018, 90.8 million euros have been invested and allocated to new investments in R&D and in new products development, for a total of 30 new models, including eight in 2018

The outlook for 2018 foresees a production value of 704 million euros ($867.2 million). 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hence, I think its clear that the marine industry, from small bass fishing boats and pontoon boats to superyachts, has recovered from the Global Financial Crisis, and many good boat builders are growing strongly.

However, it  continues to be true that the number of SAIL boats built and sold is way, way down from its peak about 1980, in many places. Not near the Solent and many other places in Europe and the Pacific where numbers are well above 1970s, but certainly very true throughout the 50 states of the USA: people in the USA enjoy boating while burning dinosaurs. Fuel is cheap. Much easier, much more sociable. And IMHO sociability was the reason most people bought sail boats (Hobie, Windsurfer, by numbers).

Surveys show the number of people boating in the USA is as high as ever. Its the number of people sailing that has collapsed.

Like with horses: used to be everywhere, the world was drowning in horse shit and flies. Now, only the very wealthy ride horses (as true as claiming only the rich sail).

Like with bicycles in Los Angeles: In 1900, more bicycles than people, only practical way to get around, and the weather and geography is perfect for bicycles. The first LA freeway, the 110 Pasadena Freeway, was originally built as an elevated wooden "freeway" for bicycles! Now, dang few practical bike riders, mostly carbon fiber dayglo suited weekend fitness buffs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, carcrash said:

Hence, I think its clear that the marine industry, from small bass fishing boats and pontoon boats to superyachts, has recovered from the Global Financial Crisis, and many good boat builders are growing strongly.

However, it  continues to be true that the number of SAIL boats built and sold is way, way down from its peak about 1980, in many places. Not near the Solent and many other places in Europe and the Pacific where numbers are well above 1970s, but certainly very true throughout the 50 states of the USA: people in the USA enjoy boating while burning dinosaurs. Fuel is cheap. Much easier, much more sociable. And IMHO sociability was the reason most people bought sail boats (Hobie, Windsurfer, by numbers).

Surveys show the number of people boating in the USA is as high as ever. Its the number of people sailing that has collapsed.

Like with horses: used to be everywhere, the world was drowning in horse shit and flies. Now, only the very wealthy ride horses (as true as claiming only the rich sail).

Like with bicycles in Los Angeles: In 1900, more bicycles than people, only practical way to get around, and the weather and geography is perfect for bicycles. The first LA freeway, the 110 Pasadena Freeway, was originally built as an elevated wooden "freeway" for bicycles! Now, dang few practical bike riders, mostly carbon fiber dayglo suited weekend fitness buffs.

I’ll just say that you’re correct. I work for one of the companies you named. Despite massive expansion, keeping up with demand is getting almost impossible. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would be so depressed if I came from the sailing manufacturing industry and had to switch to powerboat manufacturing.  :(   But, when you gotta make a living, sometimes you cant be choosey.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, MauiPunter said:

I would be so depressed if I came from the sailing manufacturing industry and had to switch to powerboat manufacturing.  :(   But, when you gotta make a living, sometimes you cant be choosey.

I’m not depressed at all. I’ll take money off powerboaters to spend on sailing all day long. It’s a good living. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Monkey said:

I’m not depressed at all. I’ll take money off powerboaters to spend on sailing all day long. It’s a good living. 

Exactly.

Also, powerboating does not suck. By complete accident, I have almost the same ocean miles on powerboats as on sailboats: a bit over 85000 miles in each.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, carcrash said:

Exactly.

Also, powerboating does not suck. By complete accident, I have almost the same ocean miles on powerboats as on sailboats: a bit over 85000 miles in each.

Lotsa miles...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now