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badlatitude

Just Another Restaurant Mass Murder By Gun

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34 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

And given that there are something like 100K DGUs vs about 11K gun murders every year, I would say the balance is well in the good column.  Just saying....

Cite?

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23 minutes ago, keelbolts said:

i don’t want to have to explain to my grandson why, as we strip down for our “showers”, I didn’t, at least, try to save him.

Then stop voting for people like Trump and his gang.

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36 minutes ago, keelbolts said:

You guys can’t possibly believe this stuff. Somebody must have to turn your computer on for you.

Must be frustrating to always be the smartest guy in the room.

 

Oh,    wait.......

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9 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Then stop voting for people like Trump and his gang.

I’m amazed at the people, many of them good people, whose world view is based on Trump. What happens to them when he’s gone? Sure, they’ll celebrate, but will they understand their world post-Trump? 

He’s a man, people, not a god.

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Just now, keelbolts said:

Who would you suggest we vote for?

Why vote? You're a might=right guy. Go out and exercise your 2nd amendment rights. Blowhard.

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7 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Must be frustrating to always be the smartest guy in the room.

 

Oh,    wait.......

It can be frustrating trying to explain the obvious to somebody who can’t see it. 

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Raz’r,  A simple yes/no, if you would, please:

Do you believe that force, or the threat of force, is the foundation on which human power relationships are built?

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1 hour ago, Raz'r said:

I think you could look at ammo sold annually vs deaths - but you'd have to figure out how many rounds per death.
Suicide, 1 round per.

drive by shootings? Mass shootings?   Somewhere more than 1 shot/death.

 

I mean, if you wanted to get all mathie.

I am not sure you can reliably translate ammo to hours. In my past life (18 months ago), I could go through 200 rounds of ammo target shooting with a pistol in a single hour, but when hunting could spend 40 hours without firing a single shot. Tough to put together an accurate model, and since nobody is paying me for it..... 

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11 minutes ago, keelbolts said:

Raz’r,  A simple yes/no, if you would, please:

Do you believe that force, or the threat of force, is the foundation on which human power relationships are built?

That is an easy one. No. 

Force or threat of force is used by bad actors (<5% of the population) to take advantage of others, and by the rest of the population in order to dissuade the bad actors from same. In no way is it the foundation of human relationships, it is an unfortunate artifact of the existence of bad actors and the limitations of alternate tools available to society. One side of that equation is beginning to change, and so we are likely to see the devaluing of violence or force and the threats of it. As it is devalued, we will see less of it, even from bad actors. 

 

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1 hour ago, keelbolts said:

Who would you suggest we vote for?

Anyone who doesn't anchor his support on the basest instincts of the lowest levels of society.

Trump and his elk are the start of the slippery slope into fascism - or haven't you noticed the rise in the visibility of the Nazi's and the Klan since 11/16?

"There are many good people on both sides".

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1 hour ago, keelbolts said:

It can be frustrating trying to explain the obvious to somebody who can’t see it. 

Or who can see what bullshit it is.

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48 minutes ago, keelbolts said:

Raz’r,  A simple yes/no, if you would, please:

Do you believe that force, or the threat of force, is the foundation on which human power relationships are built?

No

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2 hours ago, Amati said:

What is the ratio of hourly daily vehicle use vs intentional vehicle homicide?

What is the the ratio of hourly of daily firearm use vs intentional firearm homicide?

Compare....

 

You might be surprised

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Bolt sounds like a Maoist.

"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun."

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:
2 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

And given that there are something like 100K DGUs vs about 11K gun murders every year, I would say the balance is well in the good column.  Just saying....

Cite?

Ask Jocal.  It was his boy hemmenway - king of the gun grabberz.  Jocal even backed me up on that number.  

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26 minutes ago, LenP said:

That is an easy one. No. 

Force or threat of force is used by bad actors (<5% of the population) to take advantage of others, and by the rest of the population in order to dissuade the bad actors from same. In no way is it the foundation of human relationships, it is an unfortunate artifact of the existence of bad actors and the limitations of alternate tools available to society. One side of that equation is beginning to change, and so we are likely to see the devaluing of violence or force and the threats of it. As it is devalued, we will see less of it, even from bad actors. 

 

Yow!  You really don’t see it?!!!  That’s one of the main reasons I get involved in these threads, to gain insight into how others think.

Here’s an easy example: The US Constitution says that only gold or silver is money. Let’s say you don’t have any stash of gold or silver so you tell the IRS that, since you have no precious metals, you have no money and you will not be paying your taxes until you have some.  Representatives of your government will threaten you and, if that doesn’t work, use force against you. If you don’t pay, they will come to take you to prison and, should you not want to go, they will throw you on the ground, kneel on your back, cuff you, and throw you in a hole where, I’m certain, everyone understands the Power relationship.

Need another example. The world runs on them.

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8 minutes ago, Raz'r said:
57 minutes ago, keelbolts said:

Raz’r,  A simple yes/no, if you would, please:

Do you believe that force, or the threat of force, is the foundation on which human power relationships are built?

No

Concur

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No?!!!

You’re driving down the street one rainy night and you get pulled over by a law enforcement professional who orders you to get out of your car and lay face down on the ground. You don’t want to get your new suit all dirty so you tell the policeman that, no, will not be complying with his request.  What do you think the chances are of you getting home tonight with your suit dry and clean?

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I don’t know what to say.  Some (many? all?) of you don’t see the, at best, thinly veiled threat of violence behind laws?  You believe that you and others follow the laws because it’s the right thing to do?

All playing around aside, how many of you don’t see force behind the law?  I’d really like to know your thoughts on this.

No wonder we disagree, to the extent that a person’s worldview shapes the world he lives in, we live in different worlds.  I find that very interesting.

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My wife wields ultimate power over me. No threat of violence needed.

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25 minutes ago, keelbolts said:

Yow!  You really don’t see it?!!!  That’s one of the main reasons I get involved in these threads, to gain insight into how others think.

Here’s an easy example: The US Constitution says that only gold or silver is money. 

No it doesn't, the restriction that States not make anything but gold or silver a legal tender does not apply to Congress, only to the States. Congress may declare anything it wishes a legal tender.

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Vhmsays, you are right. I’ll have to look into that a bit. I can only imagine that, since the framers believed that the average citizen would rarely come in contact with the federal government, requiring precious metals for money, at the state level, was good enough. Anyway, I stand corrected.

Back to the question. What happens if you refuse to pay your taxes?

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45 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

My wife wields ultimate power over me. No threat of violence needed.

Even there. As a married man, we do agree on the power of the wife! But for the sake of my question, do you see that force hides behind, even, our marriages?  If my wife decides, as more than one of the people here have, that I’m a pure asshole and leaves me, the court may order me to send her some amount of money each month.  What happens if I say no?  They might start with having my employer sending them my money, but if I quit so the money stops, do I not eventually end up jailed for failure to pay? 

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17 minutes ago, keelbolts said:

Even there. As a married man, we do agree on the power of the wife! But for the sake of my question, do you see that force hides behind, even, our marriages?  If my wife decides, as more than one of the people here have, that I’m a pure asshole and leaves me, the court may order me to send her some amount of money each month.  What happens if I say no?  They might start with having my employer sending them my money, but if I quit so the money stops, do I not eventually end up jailed for failure to pay? 

You married the wrong woman.

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34 minutes ago, keelbolts said:

Vhmsays, you are right. I’ll have to look into that a bit. I can only imagine that, since the framers believed that the average citizen would rarely come in contact with the federal government, requiring precious metals for money, at the state level, was good enough. Anyway, I stand corrected.

Back to the question. What happens if you refuse to pay your taxes?

You go to jail.  Without taxes there are no services, without services there is no country.  If you don't like a law there is a process to change it - it's called voting.  Voting has worked pretty well in the USA for some time - it's not perfect but it beats the alternatives.  Since you seem curious as to how other people think have you ever attempted to actually talk to anyone?  Forums like this are not necessarily representative of society at large.  Some of us are kind of curious as to how and what you think, so far it seems a bit too InfoWarish. 

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2 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

You might be surprised

I like to be surprised, but for the life of me I can't think of the right question to ask GOOGLE to get an answer.

Little help?

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5 hours ago, Raz'r said:

Let's all sing the False Equivalency hymn, shall we?

Loudly & Together!---

"Every Sperm is Sacred,

Sacred, full of Grace,

If You waste Your Sperm,

God gets quite Irate" :)

Oh!  Heh heh.  Sorry.  Never Mind.  As you were..........

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18 minutes ago, Amati said:

I like to be surprised, but for the life of me I can't think of the right question to ask GOOGLE to get an answer.

Little help?

Fine Amati, I always thought you were a bright guy but if I have to spell it out for you...  S-U-R-P-R-I-S-E (The question mark is optional, Google is pretty smart these days.)   ;)

 

 

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3 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Ask Jocal.  It was his boy hemmenway - king of the gun grabberz.  Jocal even backed me up on that number.  

So it's just another "quote" pulled out of your ass.

Why am I not surprised?

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5 hours ago, keelbolts said:

I feel like we’ve been here before. We have one group who embraces their slave status and another group that wishes to be free. There’s no middle ground there.

You guys that don’t believe in freedom might succeed in handing the last of your freedom, and mine, to the banksters, or whoever it is that runs the planet, but I intend to go out fighting. They may find me dead, but, by God, they’ll find my body in a pile of brass.

i don’t want to have to explain to my grandson why, as we strip down for our “showers”, I didn’t, at least, try to save him.

Nothing like instilling fear in your grandkids to justify your argument!!  WTF!

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3 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Bolt sounds like a Maoist.

"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun."

It does.  Where did you think it came from?

How many times have you heard an anti-gun type call for the collection and destruction of all the guns, including LE, all government agencies and the military?  You will hear one once in a blue moon.  They are wonderfully nieve and optimistic, but at least they are consistent.  Most people won't go there because they know intuitively, if in no other way, that guns maintain the order.

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These threads merely prove that gun owners aren't currently interested in decreasing the frequency of gun violence in America. Only a generational shift will lead to a reassessment of America's relationship to guns. Until then, it's just one of the reasons we are an imperfect union.

C'est la vie, c'est la guerre.

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1 hour ago, d'ranger said:

You go to jail.  Without taxes there are no services, without services there is no country.  If you don't like a law there is a process to change it - it's called voting.  Voting has worked pretty well in the USA for some time - it's not perfect but it beats the alternatives.  Since you seem curious as to how other people think have you ever attempted to actually talk to anyone?  Forums like this are not necessarily representative of society at large.  Some of us are kind of curious as to how and what you think, so far it seems a bit too InfoWarish. 

You're getting there.  You go to jail where there's a very good chance you'll get to experience a bit of violence up close.  That's if you go along with it.  If you don't you get to see the violence sooner.  

Again, do you think that the law is not built on violence and, if so, what do you think it's built on?  Here's a clue, I think, are there laws put in place that have no punishment if you don't comply with them?

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1 minute ago, phillysailor said:

These threads merely prove that gun owners aren't currently interested in decreasing the frequency of gun violence in America. Only a generational shift will lead to a reassessment of America's relationship to guns. Until then, it's just one of the reasons we are an imperfect union.

C'est la vie, c'est la guerre.

Of course we'd like to see violence reduced.  We argue with you guys because, while you're pissing into the wind as you attempt to solve the wrong problem, people continue to die.  

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5 hours ago, keelbolts said:

I’m amazed at the people, many of them good people, whose world view is based on Trump. What happens to them when he’s gone? Sure, they’ll celebrate, but will they understand their world post-Trump? 

He’s a man, people, not a god.

He’s only just considered human......a man is something he will never be. 

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17 minutes ago, keelbolts said:

Of course we'd like to see violence reduced.  We argue with you guys because, while you're pissing into the wind as you attempt to solve the wrong problem, people continue to die.  

And Australia's success couldn't happen here because people like you would prevent it.

Look, I could say something like you are pissing on people's graves, but its just invective. Chill out. Nothing will happen because your lobby is bigger, or more motivated, than mine. But, times change. When it does, we'll let you know.

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4 hours ago, keelbolts said:

Yow!  You really don’t see it?!!!  That’s one of the main reasons I get involved in these threads, to gain insight into how others think.

Here’s an easy example: The US Constitution says that only gold or silver is money. Let’s say you don’t have any stash of gold or silver so you tell the IRS that, since you have no precious metals, you have no money and you will not be paying your taxes until you have some.  Representatives of your government will threaten you and, if that doesn’t work, use force against you. If you don’t pay, they will come to take you to prison and, should you not want to go, they will throw you on the ground, kneel on your back, cuff you, and throw you in a hole where, I’m certain, everyone understands the Power relationship.

Need another example. The world runs on them.

Do you sleep well at night?

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3 hours ago, Raz'r said:

My wife wields ultimate power over me. No threat of violence needed.

The financial threat is a hell though? 

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2 minutes ago, mad said:

He’s only just considered human......a man is something he will never be. 

Honest to God, I cannot wrap my head around how deeply people hate Trump.  People who know practically nothing, but what they've told about him are consumed with hatred.  It's like a religion to them.  How do you do that?  I don't remember seeing that before.  They throw around names and accusations they've heard others throw around with no true knowledge of why.  I have no interest in trying to change your mind or any others.  I try to avoid the kind of darkness that fills people, like you, at the very sound of his name.  How did Trump become your bogey man?

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2 hours ago, Raz'r said:

You married the wrong woman.

I merrily said that for 18 years....... and then got divorced. 

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12 minutes ago, phillysailor said:

And Australia's success couldn't happen here because people like you would prevent it.

Look, I could say something like your pissing on people's graves, but its just invective. Chill out. Nothing will happen because your lobby is bigger, or more motivated, than mine. But, times change. When it does, we'll let you know.

I think you're right in saying that nothing of great substance will happen in the US anytime soon, but while we argue about it, the killing continues.  Wouldn't you rather that, instead of fighting over guns, both sides searched for the real cause and worked together to craft a solution?

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9 minutes ago, mad said:

The financial threat is a hell though? 

oh yeah.

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2 minutes ago, keelbolts said:

Honest to God, I cannot wrap my head around how deeply people hate Trump.  People who know practically nothing, but what they've told about him are consumed with hatred.  It's like a religion to them.  How do you do that?  I don't remember seeing that before.  They throw around names and accusations they've heard others throw around with no true knowledge of why.  I have no interest in trying to change your mind or any others.  I try to avoid the kind of darkness that fills people, like you, at the very sound of his name.  How did Trump become your bogey man? 

Trump is not our bogeyman. To me he represents the worst of ourselves, not an evil person. He is a man without conscience, without empathy and without honor. He only wants to make a buck, and will let his fellow man starve, he will not pay a contractor and let his lawyer fight the claim, he will kick out the rent controlled and lie to the government. He would renege on a deal after he shook on it, and he insults and bullies all the time. He lies, proudly and continually. He dodges wartime service. He uses bankruptcy the way the rest of us use the standard mortgage interest deduction. He did much of his profitable business with Russian oligarchs, knowing their money comes from criminal endeavors or as an end run around international money laundering statutes. He cheats on his wives and has sex with prostitutes and porn stars. He flaunts his wealth and makes fun of minorities and the disabled.

It's not religion, it's my having a moral code that makes his leadership of my country embarrassing. He cheapens us all by the way he fires our senior national leadership positions by TWEET or by newscast. He sets an example that, if followed, will lead our country into ruin, financially and morally. 

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13 minutes ago, keelbolts said:

Honest to God, I cannot wrap my head around how deeply people hate Trump.  People who know practically nothing, but what they've told about him are consumed with hatred.  It's like a religion to them.  How do you do that?  I don't remember seeing that before.  They throw around names and accusations they've heard others throw around with no true knowledge of why.  I have no interest in trying to change your mind or any others.  I try to avoid the kind of darkness that fills people, like you, at the very sound of his name.  How did Trump become your bogey man?

Why don’t you enlighten us all with your knowledge of Trump and where you gained this precious and almost unknown knowledge.

edit

what type of person is someone like me?? I’m curious as to how you perceive me, especially as we’ve never discussed a subject. Do you have any idea what my views are on any particular subject?

Try guns?

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Just now, mad said:

Why don’t you enlighten us all with your knowledge of Trump and where you gained this precious and almost unknown knowledge 

He's got the direct Hannity mind-meld going

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7 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

oh yeah.

Sometimes things are worth every cent. 

Divorce is one of them. 

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Just now, mad said:

Why don’t you enlighten us all with your knowledge of Trump and where you gained this precious and almost unknown knowledge 

I don't claim any knowledge of Trump or any other politician of any stripe.  I know that what we get, on the news, is what the people in charge want us to get, nothing more.  I don't know if he's a demon or a saint.  All I can do is watch to see what happens.  If the President is acting within the law, there are huge limitations on what he can do, whether you like him or not.  

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2 minutes ago, keelbolts said:

I don't claim any knowledge of Trump or any other politician of any stripe.  I know that what we get, on the news, is what the people in charge want us to get, nothing more.  I don't know if he's a demon or a saint.  All I can do is watch to see what happens.  If the President is acting within the law, there are huge limitations on what he can do, whether you like him or not.  

Change your newsfeed and have a look at how he’s perceived in the rest of world. You might be surprised. Or you can just sit on the fence.  

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2 minutes ago, keelbolts said:

What makes you guys think I'm a Trump fan?  The last man I wanted for my President was Ron Paul. 

hahahahahahaha

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5 minutes ago, mad said:

Change your newsfeed and have a look at how he’s perceived in the rest of world. You might be surprised. Or you can just sit on the fence.  

I don't give a damn what the rest of the world thinks about him.  All I care about is results.  So far so good.  

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Just now, keelbolts said:

I don't give a damn what the rest of the world thinks about him.  All I care about is results.  So far so good.  

Are you familiar with the words ‘insular’ and ‘myopic’?

 You do realise that you have to maintain relationships outside of the border/wall? 

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1 minute ago, keelbolts said:

I don't give a damn what the rest of the world thinks about him.  All I care about is results.  So far so good.  

Holy shit are you easy to please.

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4 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

hahahahahahaha

Don't tell me you disapprove of, maybe, the only honest, informed man to have served in Congress in your lifetime.

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1 minute ago, SloopJonB said:

Holy shit are you easy to please.

Without thinking about it too hard:

Out of the Paris Climate agreement.

Out of TPP.

Talking with NOKO.

So far so good.  You should be pleased too.

 

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3 minutes ago, keelbolts said:

Don't tell me you disapprove of, maybe, the only honest, informed man to have served in Congress in your lifetime.

donaldlaughing.gif.b6b531f2ad62e276993514575399c310.gif

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9 minutes ago, keelbolts said:

Without thinking about it too hard:

Out of the Paris Climate agreement.

Out of TPP.

Talking with NOKO.

So far so good.  You should be pleased too.

You are one dumb shit.

A real putz.

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8 minutes ago, mad said:

Are you familiar with the words ‘insular’ and ‘myopic’?

 You do realise that you have to maintain relationships outside of the border/wall? 

Are you familiar with the words strong and fair?

The previous message, "We apologize for, among other things, spending our gold and blood to save the world from totalitarians and communists. Please be nice to us"

The new message, "Hi. Let's trade stuff?  We're fair, but we won't be your bitch anymore."

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16 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

You are one dumb shit.

A real putz.

Be nice. I can only assume that you are unfamiliar with those things. Google them.

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1 hour ago, phillysailor said:
1 hour ago, keelbolts said:

Honest to God, I cannot wrap my head around how deeply people hate Trump.  People who know practically nothing, but what they've told about him are consumed with hatred.  It's like a religion to them.  How do you do that?  I don't remember seeing that before.  They throw around names and accusations they've heard others throw around with no true knowledge of why.  I have no interest in trying to change your mind or any others.  I try to avoid the kind of darkness that fills people, like you, at the very sound of his name.  How did Trump become your bogey man? 

Trump is not our bogeyman. To me he represents the worst of ourselves, not an evil person. He is a man without conscience, without empathy and without honor. He only wants to make a buck, and will let his fellow man starve, he will not pay a contractor and let his lawyer fight the claim, he will kick out the rent controlled and lie to the government. He would renege on a deal after he shook on it, and he insults and bullies all the time. He lies, proudly and continually. He dodges wartime service. He uses bankruptcy the way the rest of us use the standard mortgage interest deduction. He did much of his profitable business with Russian oligarchs, knowing their money comes from criminal endeavors or as an end run around international money laundering statutes. He cheats on his wives and has sex with prostitutes and porn stars. He flaunts his wealth and makes fun of minorities and the disabled.

It's not religion, it's my having a moral code that makes his leadership of my country embarrassing. He cheapens us all by the way he fires our senior national leadership positions by TWEET or by newscast. He sets an example that, if followed, will lead our country into ruin, financially and morally. 

Thank you.  I might not agree with all you said, but it's a solid reply to my question.  There are parts of it that will require more consideration on my part.

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Keel, I'm don't know what your life story is, or how old you are, but your view of the world , to me, is rather frightening and depressing.  Now, I haven't lived in the US for more than 20 years but I go back regularly to visit and I just don't see the kind of things that would make a person say the kind of things you are saying.  What shaped your view of the US and the world that you seem to think that violence is the answer to so many situations?  I might expect to hear such things from a kid that grew up in Sarajevo during the Yugoslavian civil war, or maybe present day Syria.  Just reading all of your posts, I feel a lot of tension, fear and anger.  I am sorry you view the world and humans the way you do, there is still a lot of beauty and wonder in the world.  I am a burned out, tired, old, cynical, broken down, die hard idealist, and I still enjoy my life mostly.  It's all about perspective man.  If you keep thinking like you do,  you are going to flame out pretty quickly.  That would be sad.

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1 hour ago, keelbolts said:

Don't tell me you disapprove of, maybe, the only honest, informed man to have served in Congress in your lifetime.

Says he's for personal freedoms. Tries to pass abortion bill limiting personal freedoms. He's a hypocrite like the rest of them.

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1 hour ago, keelbolts said:

Be nice. I can only assume that you are unfamiliar with those things. Google them.

 
Nope - I know exactly what they are.
 

dumbshit

noun
1. a stupid person
 
adjective
2. extremely stupid
 
putz
 
noun
noun: putz; plural noun: putzes
  1. 1.
    a stupid or worthless person.
     
     

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4 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

Keel, I'm don't know what your life story is, or how old you are, but your view of the world , to me, is rather frightening and depressing.  Now, I haven't lived in the US for more than 20 years but I go back regularly to visit and I just don't see the kind of things that would make a person say the kind of things you are saying.  What shaped your view of the US and the world that you seem to think that violence is the answer to so many situations?  I might expect to hear such things from a kid that grew up in Sarajevo during the Yugoslavian civil war, or maybe present day Syria.  Just reading all of your posts, I feel a lot of tension, fear and anger.  I am sorry you view the world and humans the way you do, there is still a lot of beauty and wonder in the world.  I am a burned out, tired, old, cynical, broken down, die hard idealist, and I still enjoy my life mostly.  It's all about perspective man.  If you keep thinking like you do,  you are going to flame out pretty quickly.  That would be sad.

Hi Ed,

I appreciate your concern for me.  My worldview is less optimistic than yours, but not for no reason.  I believe all men are created with the potential to know the creative force and that ability is what separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom.  Unfortunately, precious few make any attempt to realize that potential and that leaves them just another animal; often driven by their baser instincts.  It's hard to look at history without seeing the many ways human interactions can go terribly wrong, particularly where rulers and governments are concerned.  My life is a good one, but as a father, a grandfather, and a great grandfather I cannot but be concerned at the state of our affairs today.  What keeps me sane is the knowledge that, at most levels, things are not what they appear to be. Additionally, we are all just passing through.  As such, there's good reason to take it all with a grain of salt.  Having said that, I often wish that I didn't see the patterns I see. Much of what passes for real is beyond our control; rendering, I believe, ignorance bliss. 

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How can you say something as thoughtful and rational as that yet still support anything about Trump and his gang?

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11 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:
 
Nope - I know exactly what they are.
 

dumbshit

noun
1. a stupid person
 
adjective
2. extremely stupid
 
putz
 
noun
noun: putz; plural noun: putzes
  1. 1.
    a stupid or worthless person.
     
     

Very good.

Damn Sloop, you are funny.  Thanks for the laugh.  I don't have to agree with someone to appreciate that their mind is working.  Clearly, yours is.  Really. Thanks.

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3 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

Fine Amati, I always thought you were a bright guy but if I have to spell it out for you...  S-U-R-P-R-I-S-E (The question mark is optional, Google is pretty smart these days.)   ;)

 

 

:o

:lol:

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1 hour ago, keelbolts said:

Either you don't know Ron Paul or you don't know the Constitution.  There's no other possibility.

His neighbor knows him......

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Just now, Amati said:

His neighbor knows him......

Although I wish it were Ron Paul who got that bashing, it was his son Rand who got knocked up. I mean down.

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5 minutes ago, keelbolts said:

Hi Ed,

I appreciate your concern for me.  My worldview is less optimistic than yours, but not for no reason.  I believe all men are created with the potential to know the creative force and that ability is what separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom.  Unfortunately, precious few make any attempt to realize that potential and that leaves them just another animal; often driven by their baser instincts.  It's hard to look at history without seeing the many ways human interactions can go terribly wrong, particularly where rulers and governments are concerned.  My life is a good one, but as a father, a grandfather, and a great grandfather I cannot but be concerned at the state of our affairs today.  What keeps me sane is the knowledge that, at most levels, things are not what they appear to be. Additionally, we are all just passing through.  As such, there's good reason to take it all with a grain of salt.  Having said that, I often wish that I didn't see the patterns I see. Much of what passes for real is beyond our control; rendering, I believe, ignorance bliss. 

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.  I have been an atheist for most of my adult life.  I believe we have on chance here and now, and I have tried my best to live a full and interesting life, yet also full of compassion and empathy for others.  To me it only seems obvious to try to get along in the world, life is inherently difficult enough without trying to make things worse.  I recently became a grandfather and I had no idea how hard the impact of seeing another generation, directly descended from me, would hit me.   As a matter of fact my daughter and I just talked about that tonight, among other things in a marathon 5 1/2 hour call (and we usually talk a few times a week).  So in spite of many reasons to the contrary, I try every day to be an optimist, and sometimes I succeed.  Yes, sometimes ignorance is bliss, but I don't think a life of ignorance would suit me at all.  Everything has a price.  So far, to me the price has been worth it.

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Just now, SloopJonB said:

How can you say something as thoughtful and rational as that yet still support anything about Trump and his gang?

Before this last election, I hadn't voted in many years.  I refused to vote for the lessor of two evils. When you do that, you are still voting for evil.  Why would you do that?  I did vote in this last election, but only because the possibility of Hillary naming 3 or 4 Supreme Court justices scared the crap out of me.  I did not vote for Trump, I voted against Hillary. What were our choices.  Trump was untested.  Hillary was Evil.  Bernie, if Hillary hadn't rigged the Democratic side of things, was your typical socialist living in a multi-million dollar home.  Where it not for the necessity of keeping activist judges from continuing to dismantle the Constitution, I guess the only honorable thing to do would have been to stay home.  I can't imagine how anybody could believe that a vote for Hillary was better than a vote for Trump.  She is every bit as despicable as you believe Trump to be.  

Every 4 years, we spend a year listening to how this or that politician from this or that party is going to change everything for the better.  Millions are spent; hours wasted watching commercials and debates; all to take us to the choice the powers that be already made.  The men who run the country allow us to choose between two puppets they have already approved, it makes us feel like we have a say.  And at the end of every election cycle, we change the lipstick color on the pig, all the while knowing, in our hearts, it's the same damned pig.

Don't blame the players, blame the game.

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Ed,  I suspect, if we sat down together, with a couple of beers, we'd find that we are a good deal more alike than we are different.  How did you end up in Poland?

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1 minute ago, keelbolts said:

Before this last election, I hadn't voted in many years.  I refused to vote for the lessor of two evils. When you do that, you are still voting for evil.  Why would you do that?  I did vote in this last election, but only because the possibility of Hillary naming 3 or 4 Supreme Court justices scared the crap out of me.  I did not vote for Trump, I voted against Hillary. What were our choices.  Trump was untested.  Hillary was Evil.  Bernie, if Hillary hadn't rigged the Democratic side of things, was your typical socialist living in a multi-million dollar home.  Where it not for the necessity of keeping activist judges from continuing to dismantle the Constitution, I guess the only honorable thing to do would have been to stay home.  I can't imagine how anybody could believe that a vote for Hillary was better than a vote for Trump.  She is every bit as despicable as you believe Trump to be.  

Every 4 years, we spend a year listening to how this or that politician from this or that party is going to change everything for the better.  Millions are spent; hours wasted watching commercials and debates; all to take us to the choice the powers that be already made.  The men who run the country allow us to choose between two puppets they have already approved, it makes us feel like we have a say.  And at the end of every election cycle, we change the lipstick color on the pig, all the while knowing, in our hearts, it's the same damned pig.

Don't blame the players, blame the game.

Stop worrying about the penultimate national scene- get involved locally, hell, run for local office- it’s more fun than you can imagine.....

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4 minutes ago, keelbolts said:
  24 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

How can you say something as thoughtful and rational as that yet still support anything about Trump and his gang?

I see I still didn't answer your question.  What do you suggest we do?  Like it or not, he is the President.  Removing him from office would be a serious blow to an already weak country.    Can you believe that "the other side" won't learn that lesson, destroying, even, the appearance of legitimacy the the electoral process?  I don't care how much you, or anybody else, despises President Trump, you better hope he gets at least some thing right.  We gain nothing if he fails at everything. 

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8 minutes ago, Amati said:

Stop worrying about the penultimate national scene- get involved locally, hell, run for local office- it’s more fun than you can imagine.....

Somebody said, "all politics is local."

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13 minutes ago, keelbolts said:

Ed,  I suspect, if we sat down together, with a couple of beers, we'd find that we are a good deal more alike than we are different.  How did you end up in Poland?

I do believe I wouldn't mind a beer with you. I was living in Germany, working as a civilian employee of the Army.  I got divorced form my American wife and she went back to the US.  I thought I would look into my Polish heritage while I was so near to my grandfather's home country.  I met a Polish lady and after 2 years, we got married, I left my job and moved to Poland.  I have been here 9 years now.  That's the short version.

I'll be flying to the US in a week, if you are anywhere near NW Pennsylvania/NE Ohio, on the lake shore, I'll be around until the end of June.  My first chance to cuddle my grand twins.  They are almost 3 months old now.

 

Reese and WIll Cuddle small.jpg

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31 minutes ago, badlatitude said:
33 minutes ago, Amati said:

His neighbor knows him......

Although I wish it were Ron Paul who got that bashing, it was his son Rand who got knocked up. I mean down.

I guess his neighbor is either a nut or a democrat.

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1 minute ago, keelbolts said:

Somebody said, "all politics is local."

And it’s true!

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