Kris Cringle

"I'd rather sail than varnish!", who says that?

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23 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

We LOVED that tub.

Sail69 at the helm.

5adf9ac93ebfb_IMG_7379mhrcopy2.thumb.jpg.cf919c90beaf5a3cc02b938364c09b9a.jpg

Lovely boat and happily surprised at how well she dialed up even with a furling main and centerboard.   Looking forward to Restive...

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I remember the incident and thought to myself, “damn that’s a nice boat and I am really glad that I’m too busy restoring a similar boat and can’t take that project on.” 

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15 hours ago, sail69 said:

I believe that was the Concordia which sank right outside of Nantucket on the jetty a few years back.

I think I recall this was a different accident. I remember the one off of Nantucket was racing, and stove in by another bow? 

 

This was about the same time, but this Concordia, from downeast of here, broke free of her mooring in a big blow, and went on the rocks. I sort of remember that this one was actually 'saved' from sinking as it went up on a falling tide. Quicky thinking on somebody part, it was temporarily patched or propped or something, and floated off and hauled. 

 

It doesn't look like a bow puncture from another boat, but the teeth marks are Maine granite. 

 

41653526622_17ccefff09_h.jpg

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She was high and dry by sheer luck. I saw a piece of plywood screwed on the side iirc. I have to go through some of my old pics on the computer. I’m pretty sure I have a few of the wreck

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5 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

She was high and dry by sheer luck. I saw a piece of plywood screwed on the side iirc. I have to go through some of my old pics on the computer. I’m pretty sure I have a few of the wreck

You're right. I had a close up photo that shows the screw holes and slathered goop, that was under the patch. 

41675932362_5c66722508_b.jpg

I'm often told(by wooden boat people good knowledge), Concordia's were lightly built for racing (not cost savings), and not expected to last that long. This photo shows what seem like pretty light frames. Regardless, it never held back their popularity. 

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I want to sail to Maine in the not-too-distant future and that's exactly what I think of when I look at charts of Maine-  Teeth.

I hope the safe channels and approaches are well marked on the charts and in the water.

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Hey, shit happens.

Impact-2.jpg.1edb915f29fd21983900fe6874984e9b.jpg

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On 4/25/2018 at 8:26 AM, Ajax said:

With my cabin sole, I learned to apply varnish (not Cetol) and got plenty of practice. No drips, runs, sags or brush marks by the time I was done.

I want to try Epiphanes but I'm shy. I worry that I won't thin the initial coats properly.

I've used most of the brands. This little project I'm doing, I'm using $16 a quart spar varnish from my neighborhood hardware. I use it quite bit. It's not as good as marine varnish costing 3X more, but I don't find the difference that big. Best thing about this varnish (besides it's cheap and 2 miles down the road) is it applies very well. As good as any. Sometime down the road, this box will get some higher quality varnish, maybe. 

 

In my experience (I'm no pro), application is the most important. This 56 year old deck box needed wooding and new varnish. The top is toast. I could have repaired the end joints but the top piece is plywood. I found the bottom of the face veneer, with my sander. Oh well, build a new one next time(many years away). The important part, the mahogany carcass nicely joined, is in great condition. And that doesn't suffer the same UV damage as the horizontal top(which is brutalized by sun, plus it's walked on and used as table, grilling)

This has been stripped with heat gun and stiff putty knife(30 mins or so), sanded with 80 grit in a 6" RO sander, a quick pass with 120 grit to remove (most) of the swirls. I'm no perfectionist! Then Interlux filler stain (Chris Craft Mahogany color)  applied as directed, and wiped - left a couple days to dry. 

Then the steps: 

1-coat of 10-20% thinned varnish. Let dry

2-coat of slightly thinned varnish. Let dry a couple days (no sanding yet).

3-Flat sand with 240 grit on a rubber block till fogged and flat(few minutes-easy) Let dry a couple days. 

4- Quick rub with a 3M finishing pad (just remove nubs-takes longer to type it out,..) fourth coat full strength varnish. 

Not bad for 4 coats, it'll get another 2 or so, and almost no sanding between: 

deck-box-4-coats_-jpg.149431

Is it the varnish? No. It's the roll and tipping. A 4" hardware foam roller and throw away foam brushes to tip.

 

That process applies an even, full coat of varnish which is impossible (for me) to do with just a brush. And you do it faster than by brush alone. I roll and tip this box in a few minutes. While this piece on the bench is easy, vertical surfaces are difficult to get a full coat on, without runs and sags. IF you can avoid runs and sags, you won't need much flat sanding (and save work/time).

 

The 3M pad will give enough tooth for the next coat to bond. I roll and tip many areas of my boat, even small ones that I cut the foam rollers in half. It saves me so much time and results are longer lasting coatings. Less varnishing. 

The sun bleached box last season. 

coaming-dutchmen-patch-finished-1-of-1-j

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With respect to brushing vs. rolling and tipping, what I discovered during my cabin sole journey, is that some varnishes (especially floor varnishes) advertise being very thick and thus requiring fewer coats and they advise you *not* to thin them.  These seem to do very well with a brush and self-level nicely after some minutes.

I tried rolling and tipping and using a quality brush. The brush was faster and easier with the floor varnish I bought.  I'll bet that with Epiphanes and other, thinner spar varnishes that rolling and tipping is the better method.

I see the can in your photo. I'll look for "Last 'n Last" and give it a try. :)

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2 hours ago, Ajax said:

I want to sail to Maine in the not-too-distant future and that's exactly what I think of when I look at charts of Maine-  Teeth.

I hope the safe channels and approaches are well marked on the charts and in the water.

Most of it is well marked and pretty bold. Most people get in trouble when they take, "short-cuts", cut something tight while going too fast, or assume the rocks shown on the chart * mark the rocks exactly. 

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10 minutes ago, Elegua said:

Most of it is well marked and pretty bold. Most people get in trouble when they take, "short-cuts", cut something tight while going too fast, or assume the rocks shown on the chart * mark the rocks exactly. 

On the northern BC and SE Alaska coasts, frequent  subsea seismic activity means that the seafloor (I.e., rocks, etc) is changing, so it's likely in many places that charts are merely "aids" to navigation :-). We met a guy up there, a professional captain from Italy (not the infamous Italian captain of the Costa Concordia cruise ship :-) ) who put forward-looking sonar on his new 35 footer for cruising there !  

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56 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Hey, shit happens.

Impact-2.jpg.1edb915f29fd21983900fe6874984e9b.jpg

Sumurun. You probably know the story but I heard from a buddy that the owner was at the helm. My buddy worked on the yacht for a while and witnessed "Mr T," an early investor in Apple if memory serves, at the helm. His helming style apparently involved little "situational awareness" with the result seen here.

Never really lived it down and sold the boat

I'm guessing Mr T didn't do much varnishing.

391558?k=dfc2&w=1437&h=1582&q=100&o=s%7B

 

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I use a foam roller then tip whenever possible. In my house, there is about 2000 sq ft of varnished cedar ceiling, and 6000 bd ft of cherry trim, all varnished. By me. I got pretty quick at it after about 25 gallons of varnish. Roll with a 6" foam roller, then tip. On later coats, scuff with scotchbrite so you are getting tooth without removing much material. 

On small trim features like an eyebrow or well rounded cap rail, a foam roller doesn't work well, you stuck with a brush.

Here is a question I still struggle with: when doing multiple coats of trim next to paint, you have to mask. 4 or 5 coats builds up some thickness, especially if the joint between varnish and paint is an acute corner with the varnish laying horizontal. It is difficult to get the tape to come off without either leaving some behind, or peeling the edge of the green varnish. I've tried doing it soon after the last coat (but the first is already 4 days old), waiting longer, etc. The only successful method so far is to peel the tape after each or every other coat and reapply, which keeps it out of the joint. But that is a lot of extra work on small trim features. Another method is to score the joint with a knife before peeling, also a lot of work and some danger of disturbing the seal, leading to premature failure. I wonder if I have missed a trick here. 

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4 minutes ago, DDW said:

I use a foam roller then tip whenever possible. In my house, there is about 2000 sq ft of varnished cedar ceiling, and 6000 bd ft of cherry trim, all varnished. By me. I got pretty quick at it after about 25 gallons of varnish. Roll with a 6" foam roller, then tip. On later coats, scuff with scotchbrite so you are getting tooth without removing much material. 

On small trim features like an eyebrow or well rounded cap rail, a foam roller doesn't work well, you stuck with a brush.

Here is a question I still struggle with: when doing multiple coats of trim next to paint, you have to mask. 4 or 5 coats builds up some thickness, especially if the joint between varnish and paint is an acute corner with the varnish laying horizontal. It is difficult to get the tape to come off without either leaving some behind, or peeling the edge of the green varnish. I've tried doing it soon after the last coat (but the first is already 4 days old), waiting longer, etc. The only successful method so far is to peel the tape after each or every other coat and reapply, which keeps it out of the joint. But that is a lot of extra work on small trim features. Another method is to score the joint with a knife before peeling, also a lot of work and some danger of disturbing the seal, leading to premature failure. I wonder if I have missed a trick here. 

I'm not sure what your solution would be in that sort of detail, I've got no experience. That's interior so you're looking for a crisp line, several coats and drying,  and not worried about moisture. 

 

I try to get several coats out of one taping on the boat. When it comes to the transition of varnish to paint - deck or cabin top, I overlap the dry coating, with the coating I'm putting on. Meaning I'll tape just onto the painted deck, so the varnish coat covers the varnish/paint joint, if I'm varnishing house or coaming or even toe rails.

 

I'm looking for a good water seal so the joint steps back and forth, about a 16th of an inch. The line is still crisp due to the tape and the overlap is impossible to see. If you looked under a magnifying glass you'd see the varnish overlaps the paint (or vice versa, if applying the paint side). 

 

The biggest problem with tape on the boat is it becomes hard to remove after too long (as you know). 

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When I do tight spots that require taping off, I apply 5 or 6 layers of tape on top of each other and after I varnish, I peel off the top layer and the next day I’m ready to go with fresh tape. 

The upside of that is also that when you sand, the thicker layer of tape protects the covered finish from damage. 

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Doesn't anyone spray varnish on those big areas?

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26 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Doesn't anyone spray varnish on those big areas?

If you can spray it and get an even finish - I'd like to hear what your technique is. Everytime I spray varnish, boats/furniture don't matter - it doesn't usually end well, I get glops/clumps if I leave it thick, and runs if I thin it enough to NOT glop/clump.    If there's a trick I'm missing, I'd be tickled to be squared away. 

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7 hours ago, Ajax said:

I want to sail to Maine in the not-too-distant future and that's exactly what I think of when I look at charts of Maine-  Teeth.

I hope the safe channels and approaches are well marked on the charts and in the water.

Well marked, but you will want a line cutter on your prop, and a ready anchor for when you find the 7/16" pickup line that the line cutter won't handle. 

Pro Tip: don't anchor at high tide,  where you can swing over ledge during an ebb. 

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58 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

If you can spray it and get an even finish - I'd like to hear what your technique is. Everytime I spray varnish, boats/furniture don't matter - it doesn't usually end well, I get glops/clumps if I leave it thick, and runs if I thin it enough to NOT glop/clump.    If there's a trick I'm missing, I'd be tickled to be squared away. 

I was a painter for years before getting into the marine industry. Experience is king when learning different spray techniques. The trick is to thin and spray repeated light coats though an HVLP sprayer setup. I would avoid an air compressor and HVLP gun and go with a true HVLP setup.A true High volume low pressure setup is basically a small vacuum with the air supply on the output or blow side of the machine. It’s warm air that is carried through the system helps the varnish to quickly set as the base for the subsequent coats. You have to be careful of the mil thickness overall in one session to allow surface setting and off gassing.

Some systems can be shot entirely in one day with only a light sand and final spray. I still prefer brush, roll and tip for accurate and dependable results.

That’s just my thoughts on the subject.

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Speaking for sailors of the Salish Sea, it's that whole "off season" concept we object to.

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45 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

If you can spray it and get an even finish - I'd like to hear what your technique is. Everytime I spray varnish, boats/furniture don't matter - it doesn't usually end well, I get glops/clumps if I leave it thick, and runs if I thin it enough to NOT glop/clump.    If there's a trick I'm missing, I'd be tickled to be squared away. 

Buy a sheet of 4'*8' hardwood plywood at your local homemart, chop it into 2*2 panels or whatever you'd like. practice applications. slow steady hand, match your overlap, get the varnish thinned right for spraying. based on your problems, might be a problem with matching your hand speed to your consistency. so many variable with temperature (enivronment, substrate, finish), humidity, etc. etc. hard to give a good answer. wood finishing is a bit of a dark art and I've seen businesses screw it up to the tune of $100ks.

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10 hours ago, Kris Cringle said:

I think I recall this was a different accident. I remember the one off of Nantucket was racing, and stove in by another bow? 

 

This was about the same time, but this Concordia, from downeast of here, broke free of her mooring in a big blow, and went on the rocks. I sort of remember that this one was actually 'saved' from sinking as it went up on a falling tide. Quicky thinking on somebody part, it was temporarily patched or propped or something, and floated off and hauled. 

 

It doesn't look like a bow puncture from another boat, but the teeth marks are Maine granite. 

 

41653526622_17ccefff09_h.jpg

The boat was repaired and it is now for sale

http://www.cppyacht.com/boat/1960/concordia/masthead-yawl/1056

 

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On 4/25/2018 at 4:44 AM, Kris Cringle said:

Not dense. Total function. Brushing coatings for boat builders is an ancient skill. Part of their craft. I never met a boat builder that couldn't lay on an even coating with a brush. 

A boat builder or anyone who knows wood, sees varnish - primarily - as a good sealer. It keeps water out which destroys wood(even teak). Not better than paint (not even as good is in some applications) but clear. They want parts of boats to remain visible for longevity (spars, houses, rails). These are real functioning boat parts. 

With varnish as a sealer they know it's the thickness of the coat that is needed. Best coat of varnish is the thickest that won't run or sag. Any craftsperson, maker, artist, gets good at what they do. I believe for craftspeople(I've spent my life with them), there is no reason not to do things at a high level of skill.

It doesn't take a skilled joiner longer to make a tight fitting dovetail joint than it it does to make a sloppy dovetail joint. And so it goes with brushing on coatings. The skilled don't sand much (much less than the unskilled), don't tape much, don't brush much(that would spoil there finish and cut into their coffee break). 

So I think that's why they brush instead of spray. Brushing is better all around, especially for varnish. The craftsman sees a well sealed house. The dock walker sees bling. 

 

What I have observed is the addition of rolling and tipping by these craftspeople. The toughest part of laying on varnish is to get an even coating. The checkerboard pattern was an old standby for an even coating. These days, this boat yard which hand brushes dozens and dozens of hulls, houses and spars, with various coatings, applies nearly all of it, roll and tip. Times saver, better results. 

This hull, unusual in that they used a 2 part paint, was rolled and tipped, outside. Why spray when you can do this, and with other boats all around?

Plus, brushing allows them to easily repairs nicks and dings. 

 

Thanks for the detailed explanation, the tradition/part of one's craft makes sense, and the proximity to other boats(not having to drape them).    I'm still puzzled by the quality/speed part on anything big.   My cabinetmaker prefers it(and is better at it than I am) but it sure seems to take a lot longer than a quick mask and spray for anything of any size.  For giggles today I timed us on a set of dinette boxes, he took over 90 minutes by hand and got a beautiful result, but it was under 30 for me to spray a coat, and the result was just as nice.  

I have no doubt that yards like that are far beyond my level of fit and finish, but I'm still trying to wrap my head around the quality benefits over spraying because if it really gives a better result, I wouldn't mind spending a bit more time and money on improving/new and better tools for it.  Is it because they thin less than spraying? Or that they get more consistency?  In terms of using it vs paint for longevity, do you mean because you can see water penetration and repair sooner than under paint?  What is the checkerboard method?   Unfortunately I am in a town that thinks 25$/gallon alkyd house paint is a fine finish for a boat, and three coats of cetol is getting too fancy, so varnishing is usually a non-starter unless I'm doing it for my own gratification.  

 

I have rolls of plastic that are 40' wide at the largest, but only 5' on the roll, so masking is simply a matter of how fast can you walk along the boat, but I have thousands of dollars in masking supplies, some intended for the purpose, some cross over from other industries that I have experimented with so I get to be fast and lazy about masking I spray anything bigger than about 4", with the 3m gun I use, it's spray, throw out the lid&liner, squirt of acetone down the gun, clean the needle and done, clean up is faster than a brush+roller.

Roll and tip always made sense to me for the DIY, but I was surprised to read that large boatyards use it for whole hulls still(if it's not for reasons of tradition).  On hand rails/minor repairs etc I get it.  Do they ever let people come and watch? 

 

 

 

I don't like Epiphanes, maybe it's just user error, as I know many seem to swear by it, I tried it but never seemed to get it to apply as nicely as my favorite: https://www.westmarine.com/buy/z-spar--z-spar-1015-captain-s-varnish--P004_128_001_505

Have you tried any of the interlux varnishes?  I think they are awful, smell funny, apply badly (and are a weird purpler colour too).  I experimented with about a half dozen different ones while slow one winter, from Cloverdale(cheap paint store house brand spar varnish) to the expensive ones.  That captains varnish was the overall winner. 

    Le Tonkinois(spelling?) was what my dad finished his boat with previously, it smells amazing and is fun to work, but slow to dry, plus the bugs LOVE it so not a great idea for outside work. 

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, DDW said:

I use a foam roller then tip whenever possible. In my house, there is about 2000 sq ft of varnished cedar ceiling, and 6000 bd ft of cherry trim, all varnished. By me. I got pretty quick at it after about 25 gallons of varnish. Roll with a 6" foam roller, then tip. On later coats, scuff with scotchbrite so you are getting tooth without removing much material. 

On small trim features like an eyebrow or well rounded cap rail, a foam roller doesn't work well, you stuck with a brush.

Here is a question I still struggle with: when doing multiple coats of trim next to paint, you have to mask. 4 or 5 coats builds up some thickness, especially if the joint between varnish and paint is an acute corner with the varnish laying horizontal. It is difficult to get the tape to come off without either leaving some behind, or peeling the edge of the green varnish. I've tried doing it soon after the last coat (but the first is already 4 days old), waiting longer, etc. The only successful method so far is to peel the tape after each or every other coat and reapply, which keeps it out of the joint. But that is a lot of extra work on small trim features. Another method is to score the joint with a knife before peeling, also a lot of work and some danger of disturbing the seal, leading to premature failure. I wonder if I have missed a trick here. 

Better tape helps.  cheap masking tape, like cheap paint is no saving.  The 3M edgelock, part number 2080EL tapes are better, make cleaner sharper lines (with months long clean removal as long as you don't get it wet).  Check out some of the plastic tapes as well(3M 218 is excellent).  https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-products/~/Scotch-Fine-Line-Tape-218/?N=5002385+3293241622&rt=rud

I'd try to paint or varnish just to the edge of the tape on the first coat or two if you want to try getting it all on one layer of tape, getting as little as possible on the tape.  You can experiment with two layers of tape(top layer going about 1/16" past the lower layer) use it for the first two coats, pull it, then second two.  Getting two coats on between pulling masking cuts your taping labour in half.  Even on bottom paint the 218 lets me get a couple coats before pulling without fracturing the edge(unlike the usual blue 14 day masking tape), haven't tried the edgelock for that yet but it gives wonderfully crisp lines when I've tried it on a few building projects, and it really prevented bleeding around the edge with high solvent hempalin enamel which was an issue with the 2030 tape. 

EDIT: Also if you need wider masking because you tend to get mess past the edge, but find you can get away with a single layer for the number of coats you want, I'd run a single wide layer of a cheap tape, then run 3/4" of the more expensive tapes to create your edge, the cost difference between 3/4" and 1.5" is substantial enough to make it cheaper to do this than use a single layer of 1.5" 218. 

You can see the clean line in the gelcoat here after pulling the 218, that was two coats.  I was playing with a new additive mix and tip size as well, so ignore the orange peel, it did level a bit more after, lol.   Because the tape is so thin it seems to avoid the buildup on the edge you get with paper tapes.  After spraying the white coat above with the same masking to the edge of the grey, the difference was almost imperceptible, barely needed any sanding before polish. 

 

 

 

 

20180419_002704.jpg

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2 hours ago, jgbrown said:

Thanks for the detailed explanation, the tradition/part of one's craft makes sense, and the proximity to other boats(not having to drape them).    I'm still puzzled by the quality/speed part on anything big.   My cabinetmaker prefers it(and is better at it than I am) but it sure seems to take a lot longer than a quick mask and spray for anything of any size.  For giggles today I timed us on a set of dinette boxes, he took over 90 minutes by hand and got a beautiful result, but it was under 30 for me to spray a coat, and the result was just as nice.  

I have no doubt that yards like that are far beyond my level of fit and finish, but I'm still trying to wrap my head around the quality benefits over spraying because if it really gives a better result, I wouldn't mind spending a bit more time and money on improving/new and better tools for it.  Is it because they thin less than spraying? Or that they get more consistency?  In terms of using it vs paint for longevity, do you mean because you can see water penetration and repair sooner than under paint?  What is the checkerboard method?   Unfortunately I am in a town that thinks 25$/gallon alkyd house paint is a fine finish for a boat, and three coats of cetol is getting too fancy, so varnishing is usually a non-starter unless I'm doing it for my own gratification.  

 

I have rolls of plastic that are 40' wide at the largest, but only 5' on the roll, so masking is simply a matter of how fast can you walk along the boat, but I have thousands of dollars in masking supplies, some intended for the purpose, some cross over from other industries that I have experimented with so I get to be fast and lazy about masking I spray anything bigger than about 4", with the 3m gun I use, it's spray, throw out the lid&liner, squirt of acetone down the gun, clean the needle and done, clean up is faster than a brush+roller.

Roll and tip always made sense to me for the DIY, but I was surprised to read that large boatyards use it for whole hulls still(if it's not for reasons of tradition).  On hand rails/minor repairs etc I get it.  Do they ever let people come and watch? 

 

 

 

I don't like Epiphanes, maybe it's just user error, as I know many seem to swear by it, I tried it but never seemed to get it to apply as nicely as my favorite: https://www.westmarine.com/buy/z-spar--z-spar-1015-captain-s-varnish--P004_128_001_505

Have you tried any of the interlux varnishes?  I think they are awful, smell funny, apply badly (and are a weird purpler colour too).  I experimented with about a half dozen different ones while slow one winter, from Cloverdale(cheap paint store house brand spar varnish) to the expensive ones.  That captains varnish was the overall winner. 

    Le Tonkinois(spelling?) was what my dad finished his boat with previously, it smells amazing and is fun to work, but slow to dry, plus the bugs LOVE it so not a great idea for outside work. 

 

 

 

You ask many questions grasshopper, I can only answer one.

Roll and tip is not an amateurs game when the coating comes in 2 cans.

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On 4/26/2018 at 6:32 AM, sail69 said:

Lovely boat and happily surprised at how well she dialed up even with a furling main and centerboard.   Looking forward to Restive...

That reminds me Shithead (not you 69), pics of the new ride? I don't travel that far for just any old boat. :)

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4 hours ago, jgbrown said:

Thanks for the detailed explanation, the tradition/part of one's craft makes sense, and the proximity to other boats(not having to drape them).    I'm still puzzled by the quality/speed part on anything big.   My cabinetmaker prefers it(and is better at it than I am) but it sure seems to take a lot longer than a quick mask and spray for anything of any size.  For giggles today I timed us on a set of dinette boxes, he took over 90 minutes by hand and got a beautiful result, but it was under 30 for me to spray a coat, and the result was just as nice.  

I have no doubt that yards like that are far beyond my level of fit and finish, but I'm still trying to wrap my head around the quality benefits over spraying because if it really gives a better result, I wouldn't mind spending a bit more time and money on improving/new and better tools for it.  Is it because they thin less than spraying? Or that they get more consistency?  In terms of using it vs paint for longevity, do you mean because you can see water penetration and repair sooner than under paint?  What is the checkerboard method?   Unfortunately I am in a town that thinks 25$/gallon alkyd house paint is a fine finish for a boat, and three coats of cetol is getting too fancy, so varnishing is usually a non-starter unless I'm doing it for my own gratification.  

 

I have rolls of plastic that are 40' wide at the largest, but only 5' on the roll, so masking is simply a matter of how fast can you walk along the boat, but I have thousands of dollars in masking supplies, some intended for the purpose, some cross over from other industries that I have experimented with so I get to be fast and lazy about masking I spray anything bigger than about 4", with the 3m gun I use, it's spray, throw out the lid&liner, squirt of acetone down the gun, clean the needle and done, clean up is faster than a brush+roller.

Roll and tip always made sense to me for the DIY, but I was surprised to read that large boatyards use it for whole hulls still(if it's not for reasons of tradition).  On hand rails/minor repairs etc I get it.  Do they ever let people come and watch? 

 

 

 

I don't like Epiphanes, maybe it's just user error, as I know many seem to swear by it, I tried it but never seemed to get it to apply as nicely as my favorite: https://www.westmarine.com/buy/z-spar--z-spar-1015-captain-s-varnish--P004_128_001_505

Have you tried any of the interlux varnishes?  I think they are awful, smell funny, apply badly (and are a weird purpler colour too).  I experimented with about a half dozen different ones while slow one winter, from Cloverdale(cheap paint store house brand spar varnish) to the expensive ones.  That captains varnish was the overall winner. 

    Le Tonkinois(spelling?) was what my dad finished his boat with previously, it smells amazing and is fun to work, but slow to dry, plus the bugs LOVE it so not a great idea for outside work. 

 

 

 

Spraying is the norm for fiberglass hulls, in a big paint sheds, with two part paints. Cosmetics really. Wood needs a protective coating, that is removable, eventually.

Even meticulously prepared traditional wooden boats will never be the perfect surface a well prepared glass hull can be. And wood moves, you need flexible coatings, and on and on. Two different worlds. You can see brush marks in their fine finish, if you look closely enough. But that's way beyond the 'perfect' look for a wooden boat. The result is it looks brand new: Why go farther? In a season or two, a seam will open up. No problem, another coat. 

Nice thing for old glass hulls like mine, you can join this wooden boat ethos of less involved-labor, less expensive coatings, and do them more often. 

It took my daughter and I just over 4 hours to roll and tip this 38' hull. I'll get probably 3-4 seasons out of the coating. 2 quarts of one part enamel, a few supplies, done. You can find brush marks if you get close enough, but once it's floating in the water, with the light bouncing up, they're gone(at least for me). Most of us probably spend more labor on our bottom paint and prep per season, than this. 

34505528504_c1d0f14657_h.jpg

I can't seem to settle on one brand of varnish. I'm more likely to buy a mid or low priced version of any brand, because you end up throwing so much away. I do remember having problems with Epiphanes. But it was probably the conditions which I find are far more important than which varnish. 

 

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19 hours ago, Elegua said:

Most of it is well marked and pretty bold. Most people get in trouble when they take, "short-cuts", cut something tight while going too fast, or assume the rocks shown on the chart * mark the rocks exactly. 

If it helps, Ajax, it seems to me the majority of accidents (damaging groundings) happen to those of us familiar with the water. Complacency is often the culprit and that seems to happen, often, close to home. 

 

Scared shit less by all these photos, you'll be fine. :) This one hit so hard, it took the rig down! 

goose%20rock%20wrecklede.jpg?itok=2j-X1t

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Holee Shit.

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2 hours ago, Kris Cringle said:

If it helps, Ajax, it seems to me the majority of accidents (damaging groundings) happen to those of us familiar with the water. Complacency is often the culprit and that seems to happen, often, close to home. 

 

Scared shit less by all these photos, you'll be fine. :) This one hit so hard, it took the rig down! 

goose%20rock%20wrecklede.jpg?itok=2j-X1t

They were going fast through a “short cut” at high tide, if I recall. This pic is several hours later after the rocks emerged. 

To answer Jud, not much moves around here, but a lot is not where we think it is. 

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All good varnishing tips. At the risk of repeating here are a couple of essentials (for this amateur  at least).

1 Get the quadraphonic sound on a decent jazz show, preferably commercial free.

2 Have at least a couple of beers at the ready, opened, and strategically placed in any shady spot within reach. The strategic positioning will depend on whether I'm at the sanding or varnishing stage.

3 A 'mouse' sander or similar mini electric sander. These have some great mini extension pieces for handrails and tight spots. No orbital allowed. Hand sand the finest or in between superfine grit.

4 Once down to fine grit, go over areas with a rag with a small amount of thinner. This creates a clean, tack surface.

5 Surgical gloves at this stage. (Straight thinner w rag will eat through them)

6 Start with thinnest mix of Epiphanes. Yes, Epiphanes.

7. The first thinnest coat should really sink into the wood.

8. Tape? This really depends. I've found I can leave it on overnight, but not so much for direct sunlight. Double taping can be good.

9. Oh yeah...avoid both direct sunlight and dew point.

10. If going with no tape, watch the finished job carefully for about an hour (tack dry) during cleanup or whatever with thinner and rag at the ready(which you should have ready during the job to quickly erase small errors). 

11. For small trim, handrails etc, a small sponge tip applicator can be more accurate than a brush. Some might disagree.

12. 5 or 6 coats is so much better than 2 or 3...but who ever said life is perfect?

13. I always thin the varnish over a metal tray or similar, on the dock, mix it in a small paper purpose made cup. A little kit develops w mixed cup, sponge applicator, thinner rag. Only the small kit comes on the boat, the more compact the better...any thinned unused varnish(hopefully a small amount if you've mixed about the right amount) goes back in the tin after the application. Keep two tins, one never thinned and one gets a little thinner as you move through coats. You can learn to eyeball the viscosity as per manufacturers thinning recommendations. 

14. Some of these are probably rather mundane observations...so I'll leave you with a real corny one...enjoy the process and hopefully the results.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Elegua said:

To answer Jud, not much moves around here, but a lot is not where we think it is. 

Pretty much as here - underwater granite everywhere...and a lot of this coast not terribly well charted, there are so many thousands of kilometres of it...west coast of Haida Gwaii especially...

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On large areas, a roller makes quick work of it and less mess than spray. Now if you are doing louvered doors, spraying starts looking real attractive. 

Tape: I don't use cheap tape, but the crisp line in not a problem. Its more the tape getting glued down by the varnish, again this is in the downhill concave corners mostly where the varnish can get pretty thick. To tape the caprail and eyebrow on my boat takes nearly 4 hours. Double taping might be an option, but 4 layers of tape (one for each coat) will mean two days of taping - and now the tape has already been on two days? 

I love the tips about varnishing out of the direct sun, no moisture, no dust, etc. I've been lucky enough to do it once indoors which was most of those things (but not dust free). More typically, it is out in the sun, with dew in the morning and perhaps rain in the afternoon, bugs flying about, working from the dock, deck, and dinghy. Unless you are on flat concrete with a rolling scaffold and plenty of elbow room, it's actually easier in the water.

The trick with Epiphanes or perhaps any good varnish is knowing how to thin it. You get to where you can tell as you mix it, but the drag of the brush is the most sensitive measure. 

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1 hour ago, fufkin said:

All good varnishing tips. At the risk of repeating here are a couple of essentials (for this amateur  at least).

1 Get the quadraphonic sound on a decent jazz show, preferably commercial free.

2 Have at least a couple of beers at the ready, opened, and strategically placed in any shady spot within reach. The strategic positioning will depend on whether I'm at the sanding or varnishing stage.

3 A 'mouse' sander or similar mini electric sander. These have some great mini extension pieces for handrails and tight spots. No orbital allowed. Hand sand the finest or in between superfine grit.

4 Once down to fine grit, go over areas with a rag with a small amount of thinner. This creates a clean, tack surface.

5 Surgical gloves at this stage. (Straight thinner w rag will eat through them)

6 Start with thinnest mix of Epiphanes. Yes, Epiphanes.

7. The first thinnest coat should really sink into the wood.

8. Tape? This really depends. I've found I can leave it on overnight, but not so much for direct sunlight. Double taping can be good.

9. Oh yeah...avoid both direct sunlight and dew point.

10. If going with no tape, watch the finished job carefully for about an hour (tack dry) during cleanup or whatever with thinner and rag at the ready(which you should have ready during the job to quickly erase small errors). 

11. For small trim, handrails etc, a small sponge tip applicator can be more accurate than a brush. Some might disagree.

12. 5 or 6 coats is so much better than 2 or 3...but who ever said life is perfect?

13. I always thin the varnish over a metal tray or similar, on the dock, mix it in a small paper purpose made cup. A little kit develops w mixed cup, sponge applicator, thinner rag. Only the small kit comes on the boat, the more compact the better...any thinned unused varnish(hopefully a small amount if you've mixed about the right amount) goes back in the tin after the application. Keep two tins, one never thinned and one gets a little thinner as you move through coats. You can learn to eyeball the viscosity as per manufacturers thinning recommendations. 

14. Some of these are probably rather mundane observations...so I'll leave you with a real corny one...enjoy the process and hopefully the results.

 

 

or....

gently wave some roughish sandpaper in the general direction of the items to be varnished - feel free to pay attention to last year's runs - but this is not essential. They add character to the work,

then brush the spare dust off with a soft brush - a wide brush from the pack of six you bought in a dollar store is fine.

Warm the unbranded yacht varnish tin, shake it, open it and slather the stuff over everything using the two and three inch brushes over everything  that is more or less wooden

 

loose hairs are added character.

leave to do something more interesting - return in two hours and try to apply another coat on the tacky varnish  - no need to sand.

Coat on coat varnishing requires faith in the process

Leave for 24 hours - spars and oars will need turning over and repeating the process

Drips are a sign that enough varnish has been applied.

Put the brightwork back where it comes from 

- go sailing

 

I agree about the music and the beer though

 

D

 

PS - what is the masking tape stuff of which you write so eloquently?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Pretty much as here - underwater granite everywhere...and a lot of this coast not terribly well charted, there are so many thousands of kilometres of it...west coast of Haida Gwaii especially...

I'm living on the Left coast, and my boat is on the Right coast. I'm seriously thinking about how to get my boat onto the Left coast and go cruise BC - places like . Haida Gwaii . Unfortunately I'm not in a position to ask for a leave of absence to sail it around. That would be fun. 

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18 hours ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

Buy a sheet of 4'*8' hardwood plywood at your local homemart, chop it into 2*2 panels or whatever you'd like. practice applications. slow steady hand, match your overlap, get the varnish thinned right for spraying. based on your problems, might be a problem with matching your hand speed to your consistency. so many variable with temperature (enivronment, substrate, finish), humidity, etc. etc. hard to give a good answer. wood finishing is a bit of a dark art and I've seen businesses screw it up to the tune of $100ks.

Good suggestion - I've got 1/2 a can of varnish and no projects planned, might be a good recipe for some practice. 

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One word - Penetrol.

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44 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

or....

gently wave some roughish sandpaper in the general direction of the items to be varnished - feel free to pay attention to last year's runs - but this is not essential. They add character to the work,

then brush the spare dust off with a soft brush - a wide brush from the pack of six you bought in a dollar store is fine.

Warm the unbranded yacht varnish tin, shake it, open it and slather the stuff over everything using the two and three inch brushes over everything  that is more or less wooden

 

loose hairs are added character.

leave to do something more interesting - return in two hours and try to apply another coat on the tacky varnish  - no need to sand.

Coat on coat varnishing requires faith in the process

Leave for 24 hours - spars and oars will need turning over and repeating the process

Drips are a sign that enough varnish has been applied.

Put the brightwork back where it comes from 

- go sailing

 

I agree about the music and the beer though

 

D

 

PS - what is the masking tape stuff of which you write so eloquently?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dylan - This is Maine we're talking about, inspiration for the classic Polo/Ralph Lauren style, and home of the Bush Dynasty:  yacht varnish is a big deal there. :-) 

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3 hours ago, dylan winter said:

PS - what is the masking tape stuff of which you write so eloquently?

 

If you don't use masking tape you can end up with this:

 

Screen Shot 2017-05-06 at 9.48.32 PM.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Good suggestion - I've got 1/2 a can of varnish and no projects planned, might be a good recipe for some practice. 

Can you pop over to Co Cork and practice on our dinghy? I’ll buy you a pint. Honest. 

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13 minutes ago, Mr. Ed said:

Can you pop over to Co Cork and practice on our dinghy? I’ll buy you a pint. Honest. 

I'm half decent w/a brush - my attempts at spraying varnish have really sucked, I don't think you'd want me to do that to your boat.  That said - my wife and one of my daughters fell in love with your island when they visited last summer, and would accept any excuse they could find to get back to Dingle. 

 

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5 hours ago, Elegua said:

They were going fast through a “short cut” at high tide, if I recall. This pic is several hours later after the rocks emerged. 

To answer Jud, not much moves around here, but a lot is not where we think it is. 

It probably was written up that way. But in fact that 'cut' , about 2000+ feet wide, is the most used route in that area of Penobscot Bay. It's on a straight line between Camden and Pulpit Harbor. You'll pass 100' schooners, under sail, at the same time. 

 

But you're dead on with the tide. Everybody hits at high water, in broad daylight. At high water, the East Goose Rock LEDGE, is 3' under water. I think the opening and route are too comfortable, you get used to it. The opening is huge. The rock all the boats hit, is the brown pointer mark. Except for that rock, the rest of the water is very deep. Speculation is our mind may mistake East Goose Rock, for the under water ledge, when it is in fact, submerged. When it's dry and breaking, it's huge, can't miss it. 

 

41744287071_e490f7d770_b.jpg

 

Archangel, a 70' Hylas, was on charter with a professional captain and first mate. The captain and crew had sailed that route, many times. The big CP screens in the cockpit - and below, showed Archangel plowing into the East Goos Rock LEDGE, just as it actually did. I know, because the ledge is very accurately charted, but there is no marker. No one onboard Archangel,... was watching those screens. 

 

Last big hit was 2 years ago(I know the owner). A 50' wooden yawl, that has sailed the area for decades and decades, entered in the Eggemoggin Reach feeder race, hit the ledge so hard, the impact broke ribs through out the hull. It took two major repairs (the first one didn't work,....) before it finally went back in the water late last season.

 

There have been many, many groundings on those rocks. I would think they would drill a day mark into it, the Coast Guard would save so much $$$. 

I don't point any fingers at anyone that hits this ledge. I hit the same ledge in 2000, and nearly sunk the boat. That ended season 2000 and nearly totaled our boat.I had a chart in my lap when I hit it. I bought a CP with some of the insurance $$$.  

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58 minutes ago, Mr. Ed said:

Can you pop over to Co Cork and practice on our dinghy? I’ll buy you a pint. Honest. 

Just in case Ed has gone native ... beware of West Cork promises of drinks.

Many years ago, an interloper from Cork city cheekily won a sailing race in Schull.  He duly collected the advertised prize of a monster bottle of whiskey and took it back to his boat .... where he found that it was cold tea

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5 minutes ago, Kris Cringle said:

It probably was written up that way. But in fact that 'cut' , about 2000+ feet wide, is the most used route in that area of Penobscot Bay. It's on a straight line between Camden and Pulpit Harbor. You'll pass 100' schooners, under sail, at the same time. 

 

But you're dead on with the tide. Everybody hits at high water, in broad daylight. At high water, the East Goose Rocks are 3' under water. I think the opening and route are too comfortable, you get used to it. The opening is huge. The rock all the boats hit, is the brown pointer mark. Except for that rock, the rest of the water is very deep. 

 

41744287071_e490f7d770_b.jpg

 

Archangel, a 70' Hylas, was on charter with a professional captain and first mate. The captain and crew had sailed that route, many times. The big CP screens in the cockpit - and below, showed Archangel plowing into the East Goos Rocks, just as it actually did. I know, because the rocks are very accurately charted, but there is no marker. No one onboard Archangel,... was watching those screens. 

 

Last big hit was 2 years ago(I know the owner). A 50' wooden yawl, that has sailed the area for decades and decades, entered in the Eggemoggin Reach feeder race, hit the ledge so hard, the impact broke ribs through out the hull. It took two major repairs (the first one didn't work,....) before it finally went back in the water late last season. 

 

There have been many, many groundings on those rocks. I would think they would drill a day mark into it, the Coast Guard would save so much $$$. 

I don't point any fingers at anyone that hits this ledge. I hit the same ledge in 2000, and nearly sunk the boat. That ended season 2000 and nearly totaled our boat.I had a chart in my lap when I hit it. I bought a CP with some of the insurance $$$.  

Yeah, I know it, and I've watched a lot of boats go through it.  Mostly because I'm coming from Muscle Ridge, Rockland, or someplace like that, it's not much slower for me to go around the bell. 

I try not to point fingers either because I'm sure despite my best efforts, I'm doing stupid tricks elsewhere. 

 

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On 4/25/2018 at 4:44 AM, Kris Cringle said:

It doesn't take a skilled joiner longer to make a tight fitting dovetail joint than it it does to make a sloppy dovetail joint.

Speaking as a Master, you're confused.

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On 4/26/2018 at 9:09 AM, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

On the northern BC and SE Alaska coasts, frequent  subsea seismic activity means that the seafloor (I.e., rocks, etc) is changing, so it's likely in many places that charts are merely "aids" to navigation :-). We met a guy up there, a professional captain from Italy (not the infamous Italian captain of the Costa Concordia cruise ship :-) ) who put forward-looking sonar on his new 35 footer for cruising there !  

How far South does North start?  

We had fun at Sylva Bay.  The Canada Tow pilot, after he pulled us off a slab,  tied us up, and ran us on the other half of the slab.  “That wasn’t supposed to be there”. He said, and he lived there....

 

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13 hours ago, DDW said:

On large areas, a roller makes quick work of it and less mess than spray. Now if you are doing louvered doors, spraying starts looking real attractive. 

Tape: I don't use cheap tape, but the crisp line in not a problem. Its more the tape getting glued down by the varnish, again this is in the downhill concave corners mostly where the varnish can get pretty thick. To tape the caprail and eyebrow on my boat takes nearly 4 hours. Double taping might be an option, but 4 layers of tape (one for each coat) will mean two days of taping - and now the tape has already been on two days? 

I love the tips about varnishing out of the direct sun, no moisture, no dust, etc. I've been lucky enough to do it once indoors which was most of those things (but not dust free). More typically, it is out in the sun, with dew in the morning and perhaps rain in the afternoon, bugs flying about, working from the dock, deck, and dinghy. Unless you are on flat concrete with a rolling scaffold and plenty of elbow room, it's actually easier in the water.

The trick with Epiphanes or perhaps any good varnish is knowing how to thin it. You get to where you can tell as you mix it, but the drag of the brush is the most sensitive measure. 

I don't know why, but somehow that plastic tape(the #218) seems to get a lot less build up on the edge, like the finish stays thinner instead of beading, so it comes up easier and leaves a more consistent clean edge, doesn't get stuck or allow the finish to adhere as easily and it's so much tougher that it never leaves little bits of tape behind, I've not seriously tested the edgelock(2080EL) for this, but it always seems to come away cleaner at the edge and not get stuck on the regular paints I've used it with, it is cheaper than the 218. The crisper line is a bonus.  Not having to mask for each coat saves money when you're paying by the hour, and longer clean removal if you screw up your timing and don't get around to varnishing/painting(60 days on the edgelock).    Try it and see what you think, I'm sold on both, somehow the coatings bond to the paper tapes better, the edgelock stuff seems to reduce this effect too. If you can cut your taping quantity in half for an extra few bucks a roll that's time and money saved.  

I never got it right with Epiphanes, always got irritated, thin a bit, still got texture, thin a bit more still texture, thin a bit more, dribble and run everywhere. That petit captains varnish though... Much better for me.  It seems very tolerant of thinning, hard to over or under thin it. 

I almost forgot, when I had a sailboat I lived on, I did play with adding a small splash of white gas to the varnish before thinning to consistency with regular thinner, when it was cold and damp, worked wonders for the drying time.

 

 

 

 

17 hours ago, Kris Cringle said:

Spraying is the norm for fiberglass hulls, in a big paint sheds, with two part paints. Cosmetics really. Wood needs a protective coating, that is removable, eventually.

Even meticulously prepared traditional wooden boats will never be the perfect surface a well prepared glass hull can be. And wood moves, you need flexible coatings, and on and on. Two different worlds. You can see brush marks in their fine finish, if you look closely enough. But that's way beyond the 'perfect' look for a wooden boat. The result is it looks brand new: Why go farther? In a season or two, a seam will open up. No problem, another coat. 

Nice thing for old glass hulls like mine, you can join this wooden boat ethos of less involved-labor, less expensive coatings, and do them more often. 

It took my daughter and I just over 4 hours to roll and tip this 38' hull. I'll get probably 3-4 seasons out of the coating. 2 quarts of one part enamel, a few supplies, done. You can find brush marks if you get close enough, but once it's floating in the water, with the light bouncing up, they're gone(at least for me). Most of us probably spend more labor on our bottom paint and prep per season, than this. 

I can't seem to settle on one brand of varnish. I'm more likely to buy a mid or low priced version of any brand, because you end up throwing so much away. I do remember having problems with Epiphanes. But it was probably the conditions which I find are far more important than which varnish. 

 

Nice looking job!  I guess I was curious if there was more of a tangible quality benefit to roll and tip, being already set up for spraying I'll stick to being lazy with it.  Using an accuspray gun it is dead easy, thin, mix dump in the liner and spray.  Filter mesh is already built into the cap.  No picking up bits of crap with a roller.    I was trying to paint the underside of a mezzanine in the shop last night, and got fed up with picking up shit with the roller, and dry spots around exposed screws.  Threw a big cup on the pressurized gun, a 2.2 tip added a splash of water and shot a couple liters, I'd not do a whole house with an hvlp, but I did spray 80 gallons of latex on the shop in about 3 days when I was first here(I painted the floor as well) with a cheap airless sprayer, would have taken ages with a roller.    I hose clamped the sprayer gun to a painters pole, and rigged a cord to pull the trigger, could paint 14' up from the ground, no scaffold.  I'd spray bottom paint with an airless if it wasn't illegal, lol.  If you're already masking to sand as you should be, it seems a logical way to go, but I am not willing to risk the trouble I'd get in if caught. 

I never got epiphanes to work nicely.    Why do you throw it away?  If you aren't already, just pour off what you'll use in one shot into a yogurt style measuring container, save a yogurt lid from home and don't pour back the leftovers when you're done, then gently pour a good layer of paint thinner on top of both containers varnish before putting a lid on each day, next day just add new fresh varnish to the mixing container.  At the end of the job you might throw away a little but you'll never contaminate your supply.  One of the varnishes I experimented with was well over 10 years old and had no skin/chunks even after sitting in my parents unheated shed for all that time, leftovers from some high school woodshop class. 

 

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Thats fascinating. So I'm thinking 14' up and no scaffold you probably prep with a water blaster?

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13 hours ago, slap said:

 

If you don't use masking tape you can end up with this:

 

Screen Shot 2017-05-06 at 9.48.32 PM.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

I see now

... so I presume the tape stops the antifoul from getting above the waterline on an old boat where it is sure to attack the white bits of fibreglass and might make the boat sink

I now see that I have been taking some terrible risks by not using much of this amazing material.

Dylan

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The notion of throwing away varnish often mentioned with Epifanes is half right.

Top coats should always be virgin material what ever you are using if it involves a brush or roller. Its amazing how much crap the brush picks up. However daily leftovers are fine to keep for prime/build coats.

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1 hour ago, dylan winter said:
15 hours ago, slap said:

 

If you don't use masking tape you can end up with this:

 

Screen Shot 2017-05-06 at 9.48.32 PM.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

I see now

... so I presume the tape stops the antifoul from getting above the waterline on an old boat where it is sure to attack the white bits of fibreglass and might make the boat sink

I now see that I have been taking some terrible risks by not using much of this amazing material.

Dylan

It may just be a matter of personal taste but I'm not sure that a clean paint line would transform the appearance of this boat.

Cheers,

              W.

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might not be pretty BUT I'll wager she's done a few miles and seen plenty :)

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4 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

It may just be a matter of personal taste but I'm not sure that a clean paint line would transform the appearance of this boat.

Cheers,

              W.

A clean, straight waterline is as important as the sheerline to the look of a boat.

Get either wrong and it will look like a POS.

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4 hours ago, Mid said:

might not be pretty BUT I'll wager she's done a few miles and seen plenty :)

I'll be ten buck she's named Wendy.

latest?cb=20170711201040&sp=0ecfabf9e35b

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10 hours ago, jgbrown said:

I don't know why, but somehow that plastic tape(the #218) seems to get a lot less build up on the edge, like the finish stays thinner instead of beading, so it comes up easier and leaves a more consistent clean edge, doesn't get stuck or allow the finish to adhere as easily and it's so much tougher that it never leaves little bits of tape behind, I've not seriously tested the edgelock(2080EL) for this, but it always seems to come away cleaner at the edge and not get stuck on the regular paints I've used it with, it is cheaper than the 218.

Thanks, I will try them. I've tried "new" masking tapes in the past and been disappointed. Do the ones you mention go around corners as well as the traditional 3M crinkle tape?

One of the issues with the traditional seems to be a meniscus forms at the edge, leaving a fillet of varnish. Perhaps the plastic is varno-phobic (to coin a word) and doesn't have this effect. The untaping has been taking be about as long as the taping, which adds significantly to the labor. 

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4 minutes ago, DDW said:

Thanks, I will try them. I've tried "new" masking tapes in the past and been disappointed. Do the ones you mention go around corners as well as the traditional 3M crinkle tape?

One of the issues with the traditional seems to be a meniscus forms at the edge, leaving a fillet of varnish. Perhaps the plastic is varno-phobic (to coin a word) and doesn't have this effect. The untaping has been taking be about as long as the taping, which adds significantly to the labor. 

I used the plastic stuff on a recent project. Instead of a crepe texture like the paper tapes, they introduce thin sections across the width of the tape every millimeter or so. As you put tension on the tape the thin sections stretch, allowing it to mask around curves. It won't give you as much bend as an aggressively creped paper tape but the crepe works against a clean edge, so you pick your poison. 

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1 hour ago, IStream said:

I'll be ten buck she's named Wendy.

latest?cb=20170711201040&sp=0ecfabf9e35b

Fuck that crack is evil shit.

She looks like she might have been very good looking before.

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Your point is well taken but this one's make-believe. Wendy was a character in Breaking Bad and I thought they did a great job with casting and makeup, not to mention the acting. 

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58 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Fuck that crack is evil shit.

She looks like she might have been very good looking before.

Anna%252520Gunn.jpg

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1 hour ago, IStream said:

Your point is well taken but this one's make-believe. Wendy was a character in Breaking Bad and I thought they did a great job with casting and makeup, not to mention the acting. 

I can't believe I missed that - I loved that show.

Crazy handful of nothing was my favorite episode - when Walt blows up Tuco's office with the "Meth" that's actually fulminated mercury.

Can't wait for Saul to start up again.

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9 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

I can't believe I missed that - I loved that show.

Crazy handful of nothing was my favorite episode - when Walt blows up Tuco's office with the "Meth" that's actually fulminated mercury.

Can't wait for Saul to start up again.

Now you've done it. I'm gonna have to watch that one again! I haven't started Saul yet, been waiting for my son to finish binge watching Bad so we can watch Saul together.

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14 hours ago, DDW said:

Thanks, I will try them. I've tried "new" masking tapes in the past and been disappointed. Do the ones you mention go around corners as well as the traditional 3M crinkle tape?

One of the issues with the traditional seems to be a meniscus forms at the edge, leaving a fillet of varnish. Perhaps the plastic is varno-phobic (to coin a word) and doesn't have this effect. The untaping has been taking be about as long as the taping, which adds significantly to the labor. 

Meniscus, that's a good word to describe what I was trying to say, that thickening at the edge.  It seems to be a property of the thickness of the edge of the tape, exacerbated by the material.  Thinner tape, better material, not as big a meniscus. 

I did an experiment with 3 tapes tonight, please ignore the dirty bench, it has stick on paper masking for dirty work and it hasn't been changed in a week or two.   Outside sharp 90 on the aluminium, inside small radius, and an extreme angle, up and over the bevels of a knife edge. 

 

The 218 has no ridges, it is perfectly smooth and the edges of the rolls are very precisely cut.   I'd like to retract the suggestion for 218, and substitute 06527.  It was excellent for what I was doing, but had three problems I didn't notice using it for the first time.  I was trying it out as a possible replacement  for 3m 06527, which has been my go-to tape for edges like that for spraying.   I will still use it for jobs like I just did, it is ideal there but not for what you are doing.   Problems with #218:  1. It is not simple to tear, it stretches(which is handy when you want to stretch one edge for a quick direction change like following the radius of the chine on a transom without wrinkling) and is better cut with a razor blade.  2.  It doesn't adhere well unless the surface is perfectly clean, then it sticks like crazy.  3.  It doesn't conform as well as I'd have liked on sharp corners.  It would do the job, but only grudgingly.

Results of the test are in the photos:  the 06257 was nicer in every way than either for application.  It tore better than either the edgelock or the 218. It had better conformation, look how it took that compound shape towards the spine of the knife, that blade is about 3/8" thick, and the grind on the top tapers off to almost nothing, It stuck and sealed better, see how it laid down over any lumps and bumps of dust on the aluminium and sealed right around them, perfect on a likely imperfect substrate(visible as white dots on the 218). A single swipe with a finger was all they got for sticking down.   I am a big fan of translucent tapes for edges, you can see exactly where your tape stops, if you get over the line or any small issues.  The only thing I don't know about it is the clean removal time, I've never had a problem with it on for a few days, but the 2080 edge lock has a 60 day clean removal so I'd use that outdoors if I thought I might be leaving it on for a while before getting around to the job(ie prepping on a day when the forecast is iffy). 

 

 

 

Helm-1.thumb.jpg.50b88d1b7d08992f47fee6faeb5de686.jpgHelm-3.thumb.jpg.75cab7ab91aa08179991d59c8b6e4f22.jpgHelm-2.thumb.jpg.5e3ec4738fbf4689ff15d9085c356884.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

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21 hours ago, paps49 said:

The notion of throwing away varnish often mentioned with Epifanes is half right.

Top coats should always be virgin material what ever you are using if it involves a brush or roller. Its amazing how much crap the brush picks up. However daily leftovers are fine to keep for prime/build coats.

Yes, I should have clarified that.  Final coat, clean cup, clean varnish, clean brush.   But until then putting the lid on and the splash of thinner and it's just as good tomorrow as it was today. 

EDIT: Also thinking about things I do, I keep a rag with solvent on it close by if I'm doing anything by hand(styrene for gelcoats, mineral spirits for paint) and if I get obvious contamination I wipe my brush/roller before continuing.  Doubles for cleaning up any accidental dribble or splatter too.

 

21 hours ago, paps49 said:

Thats fascinating. So I'm thinking 14' up and no scaffold you probably prep with a water blaster?

I did all prep with a powerwasher, building hadn't been painted in 20 years and there were a lot of cracks in the exterior stucco, it looked awful.  I used a water broom end where I could(4 nozzles across) but put 90 degree fittings in the broom so it sprayed directly down towards it's wheels as I rolled along the wall, then higher up I used an extra section of wand with adapters, and an adjustable end fitting and a 20 degree tip(15 was too narrow, and 30 pushed the wand away from the wall at the far end of my reach).  For cleaner I used a mix of cheap hardware store siding cleaner and a strong shot of caustic degreaser added to to each gallon, then blasted it.    I did use a low rolling scaffold(called a bakers scaffold I think?) for the pressure washing.  The paint was the cheapest recycled water based crap(called eco-coat), smells funny but holds up extremely well on the outside walls and only cost me 50$/5 gallon bucket where a durable virgin paint costs 100$+.  Twice a year I rent a floor scrubber for a day, and degrease the floor, then repaint it with a roller. (after spring launches and before winterizing in the fall).   If I keep it up for the next 50 years, I'll spend the same amount as a single round of epoxy coated floor not counting my time.  It looks new twice a year(epoxy wouldn't look new forever with the use and abuse it would suffer here).  I chose a very neutral and non-reflective grey( I don't like shiny floors or non-neutral colours, both ake colour matching harder), it is not as slippery when wet and I don't lose my mind when someone drops a glob of filler, a splash of resin/paint or a heavy object on it.  

 

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Ok, serious post here from me (for once :-).  I actually do admire your nice varnish on your Alden, Tom. 

Rather too many years ago (over 10), I bought a 1-part cabin sole varnish, Ultimate Sole, a "miracle" product that advertised itself as having a very low coefficient of friction when it's dry.  I put lots of coats on cabin sole when I redid it.  It's great stuff, super easy to apply with no sanding and very little dry time between coats, has stood up very well, and in fact isn't slippery, but has a semi-gloss look.

I think that stuff is no longer available.

Are "regular" varnishes slippery for cabin soles?  What's a common varnish product to redo a cabin sole with?  (Just remembered - I'm currently working on a new $25 million house with an indoor basketball court - presumably Ultimate Sole is some sort of gym/basketball court type of coating - they'd also want a low-friction floor coating?  I'd ask but the floor guys are rarely there...)

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11 hours ago, jgbrown said:

Results of the test are in the photos:  the 06257 was nicer in every way than either for application.  It tore better than either the edgelock or the 218. It had better conformation, look how it took that compound shape towards the spine of the knife, that blade is about 3/8" thick, and the grind on the top tapers off to almost nothing, It stuck and sealed better, see how it laid down over any lumps and bumps of dust on the aluminium and sealed right around them, perfect on a likely imperfect substrate(visible as white dots on the 218). A single swipe with a finger was all they got for sticking down.   I am a big fan of translucent tapes for edges, you can see exactly where your tape stops, if you get over the line or any small issues.  The only thing I don't know about it is the clean removal time, I've never had a problem with it on for a few days, but the 2080 edge lock has a 60 day clean removal so I'd use that outdoors if I thought I might be leaving it on for a while before getting around to the job(ie prepping on a day when the forecast is iffy). 

Thanks for that, which is which in the photos? 

The clean removal is a big thing varnishing in the wild. I tape and sand one day, then put on maybe four coats, one a day, then peel on the 6th day. Most tapes that say a few days or a week or a month aren't really, outdoors possibly in the sun. 

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13 hours ago, jgbrown said:

Yes, I should have clarified that.  Final coat, clean cup, clean varnish, clean brush.   But until then putting the lid on and the splash of thinner and it's just as good tomorrow as it was today.

Another trick that helps a bit is to store a partial can upside down - then the skin forms on the bottom.

Straining varnish through old pantyhose works very well.

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3 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Another trick that helps a bit is to store a partial can upside down - then the skin forms on the bottom.

Straining varnish through old pantyhose works very well.

Make sure you remove them before doing this.

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The extra support hose filters out the finest particles. My wife is thin so I would have to buy them, which would look weird...

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3 hours ago, DDW said:

Thanks for that, which is which in the photos? 

The clean removal is a big thing varnishing in the wild. I tape and sand one day, then put on maybe four coats, one a day, then peel on the 6th day. Most tapes that say a few days or a week or a month aren't really, outdoors possibly in the sun. 

Blue with orange letters is 2080 edgelock, light green beside that is 06527, 218 is the beige one.  Next time something is getting varnished I'll do a 1 coat removed wet, two coats removed after second wet, two coats removed with both dry, three coats removed after third dry and three coats removed dry and post that.  I chucked the aluminium outside will check removal in a week, mix of rain and sun coming up.

1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Another trick that helps a bit is to store a partial can upside down - then the skin forms on the bottom.

Straining varnish through old pantyhose works very well.

Why put up with skin at all?  You've already got paint thinner for thinning(or you should anyways). 

And buy a pack of filter cones, I know we're all cheap, but they're 26 cents each Canadian, I've seen them for 10 cents in the states, and it's not like they go bad.  Plus they're useful for straining all kinds of stuff.  If you're extra extra cheap, dump your waste solvent through after you clean your brush and reuse it a couple times. 

https://www.amazon.ca/ABN-Strainer-Funnel-Filter-100-Pack/dp/B01H7PEFI8/ref=sr_1_2?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1525038149&sr=1-2&keywords=strainer+cone

 

 

1 hour ago, Sail4beer said:

The extra support hose filters out the finest particles. My wife is thin so I would have to buy them, which would look weird...

Or you could buy a pack of filter cones, and avoid getting your wife all covered in varnish.  :P  Bonus you can avoid the weird looks too.  I'm pretty sure it's actually cheaper than buying panty hose, and you can dump it in at once and come back once it's done filtering. 

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38 minutes ago, jgbrown said:

Why put up with skin at all?  You've already got paint thinner for thinning(or you should anyways).

How is thinner going to prevent a skin forming on the top of a partial can?

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1 hour ago, jgbrown said:

Blue with orange letters is 2080 edgelock, light green beside that is 06527, 218 is the beige one.  Next time something is getting varnished I'll do a 1 coat removed wet, two coats removed after second wet, two coats removed with both dry, three coats removed after third dry and three coats removed dry and post that.  I chucked the aluminium outside will check removal in a week, mix of rain and sun coming up.

Why put up with skin at all?  You've already got paint thinner for thinning(or you should anyways). 

And buy a pack of filter cones, I know we're all cheap, but they're 26 cents each Canadian, I've seen them for 10 cents in the states, and it's not like they go bad.  Plus they're useful for straining all kinds of stuff.  If you're extra extra cheap, dump your waste solvent through after you clean your brush and reuse it a couple times. 

https://www.amazon.ca/ABN-Strainer-Funnel-Filter-100-Pack/dp/B01H7PEFI8/ref=sr_1_2?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1525038149&sr=1-2&keywords=strainer+cone

 

 

Or you could buy a pack of filter cones, and avoid getting your wife all covered in varnish.  :P  Bonus you can avoid the weird looks too.  I'm pretty sure it's actually cheaper than buying panty hose, and you can dump it in at once and come back once it's done filtering. 

I couldn't find any reference to 06527 on the 3M tape web site.  Is it a 3M product?  Maybe that's a particular Canadian part number not available to your southern neighbors.

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1 hour ago, sam_crocker said:

I couldn't find any reference to 06527 on the 3M tape web site.  Is it a 3M product?  Maybe that's a particular Canadian part number not available to your southern neighbors.

Probably just their website sucking.  It's the one thing 3m did a shit job of, other than ruining imperial rubbing compound with their "new formula" which just feels like they reduced the abrasive quantity and quality both so you use more and cut slower but the price stayed the same.  So many divisions and a lot of time the search function doesn't work across them, easier to just google it, even the 3m tech reps often recommend googling over using the built in search. 

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-products/~/3M-Precision-Masking-Tape/?N=5002385+3293242378&rt=rud

Available on amazon here:

https://www.amazon.com/3M-06527-Yard-Precision-Masking/product-reviews/B00AJVNZ5M

 

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6 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

How is thinner going to prevent a skin forming on the top of a partial can?

Add a small amount of thinner in the can, without stirring. Close can, carefully. Don't shake. Put on shelf. 

Thinner will then form a liquid seal. 

/J

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6 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

How is thinner going to prevent a skin forming on the top of a partial can?

You don't mix it in, pour it in gently and you'll see it float on the surface, pour in enough(usually about 2 tablespoons for a gallon can) and it will cover the entire surface evenly.  As long as you don't vigorously shake or stir the can, the thinner continues to float on top, and since it can't evaporate the varnish stays fresh for years.   It also seems to dramatically reduce the sludge from forming on the sides that are above the varnish level, I don't know if this is because the air in the can is full of the vapour from the thinner or what, I just know it works, and works well.   

EDIT: I also do the same with gelcoat, I scrape down the sides with my stir stick to clean them a bit, then float a little styrene on top.  A gallon can of gelcoat will feel the same near the bottom as when it was fresh if you do it this way.  Although I don't keep gelcoat on hand past 6 months so I'm not sure how well it works past that, but I know that when I don't do it, it gets nasty and I throw it out.

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You should write this stuff down JG.

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18 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Ok, serious post here from me (for once :-).  I actually do admire your nice varnish on your Alden, Tom. 

Rather too many years ago (over 10), I bought a 1-part cabin sole varnish, Ultimate Sole, a "miracle" product that advertised itself as having a very low coefficient of friction when it's dry.  I put lots of coats on cabin sole when I redid it.  It's great stuff, super easy to apply with no sanding and very little dry time between coats, has stood up very well, and in fact isn't slippery, but has a semi-gloss look.

I think that stuff is no longer available.

Are "regular" varnishes slippery for cabin soles?  What's a common varnish product to redo a cabin sole with?  (Just remembered - I'm currently working on a new $25 million house with an indoor basketball court - presumably Ultimate Sole is some sort of gym/basketball court type of coating - they'd also want a low-friction floor coating?  I'd ask but the floor guys are rarely there...)

You're never serious about my boat, Jud. :) I'm lazy and cheap so I would never go looking for a special sole varnish, much less pay more money because they put some gravel in Minwax Polyurethane.

I stripped and varnished my boats sole in the year 2000, with about 6-7coats of gloss spar varnish. It's not slippery but it is a small cabin sole, not a dance floor. I haven't recoated the sole in 17 seasons with 2 kids and dogs. The shine is gone (gloss turns to mat underfoot in no time). The coating is still protecting the wood (why I did it). I don't have brain damage from falling. 

 

Is it any wonder, 'Ultimate Soul' is out of business. Come on man, will you ever listen to me!!!! :) 

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We’ve done gloss varnish on our cabin soles for years now too. I am always amazed at the reaction people have when they first see it. It is fine, no more or less slippery than any other finish. Of course, I also way my non skid... have to be careful there for a week or so but then it is fine. 

 

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1 hour ago, Kris Cringle said:

You're never serious about my boat, Jud. :) I'm lazy and cheap <snip>

Says the wooden boat owner who built and installed an entire new cockpit assembly one winter.

Lazy, my ass. ^_^

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3 hours ago, Ajax said:

Says the wooden boat owner who built and installed an entire new cockpit assembly one winter.

Lazy, my ass. ^_^

That would be true, if I DID own a wooden boat. Mine, is fiberglass. :)

 

Case in point. Done at 7 coats, a pro would put on a few more. Here's a few things more that I didn't do, varnishing this deck box. 

 

Sand: Except for 2 times. First time at the 3rd coat, with 240# wrapped around a hard rubber block. Second time with 320# wrapped around a sanding sponge. I used a brown 3M pad, rubbing the box between every coat, even after sanding. I DID tack(clean) the box carefully between coats. 

 

Strain: I poured varnish out of the can into a narrow rolling tray. I changed the tray, foam roller and brush, once. Just kept adding varnish as I needed. Covered tightly with plastic between coats, stored on cool cement floor.  

 

The thing I paid attention to, was carefully loading the roller with varnish (not overloading), and applying evenly - up and down, back and forth. Careful tipping work to avoid runs and sags(the box sides are vertical so this was the most important task). This step eliminated much sanding. The lazy way. 

 

There you go. Varnish: Don't believe everything you read about it (including this).