Kris Cringle

"I'd rather sail than varnish!", who says that?

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Somebody who doesn't understand the ancient and simple system of maintaining brightwork with varnish. 

 

Some boats like Irian, a 41' Concordia yawl, have lot's of brightwork to maintain. Of course the work is done in the off season in NE. These knowledgable owners (most wooden boat owners are), have the yard do the work (smart).

Built in 1959, the present owners have owned her since 1980, and I believe(?), they still do. Old boats often are held long term, and become part of the family. Irian is usually one of the first boats launched and the last boats to haul in the fall. The owners sail the boat throughout the coast of Maine and into the Canadian Maritimes. 

She never misses a minute of sailing for varnishing. 

I noticed she looked stunning last night on the edge of the harbor in the low afternoon sun. She must have been 'wooded' in the sheds last winter, and ample coats of new varnish built up. 

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(Photo below 2012 or so): I remembered she was quite blonde the last few seasons. Mahogany turns a straw color after many years in the sun. You can see in this photo from a few years ago, along with the fading mahogany, a varnish failure along the stem. You can repair varnish but you can only defer a failing coating for so long. Then you have to start from scratch. 

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Then I went further back in my files and found a photo from 2008. 10 years ago, the bright hull had a medium mahogany color. From a repair of two, I'd guess she was last wooded at least 15 years ago(maybe more). About right: Done correctly, a yearly maintenance coat of varnish applied, I would expect 15 years, at least, in NE. 

Photo below 2008

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"It's not a piano!", another term you hear about wooden boats. But this old adage has wisdom. Applied correctly - so that it lasts, a varnish finish, even on a boat, looks like a piano finish. 

Photo below, last night. This is a one part spar varnish applied roll and tip. The guys and girls at this yard, are magicians with brushes. 

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It's an expensive project to remove all the varnish and re-varnish, no doubt. Over 15 - 20 years, not so much. High maintenance boat, with a piano finish, that could (might),  sail to Newfoundland this season. 

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I'm gonna' guess the owners of that boat haven't held a varnish brush in their hands for many years. Just a ball point pen to ink the check.

I actually don't mind the varnishing, its the sanding, masking (and sanding and masking) that I don't like that much. 

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19 minutes ago, DDW said:

I'm gonna' guess the owners of that boat haven't held a varnish brush in their hands for many years. Just a ball point pen to ink the check.

I actually don't mind the varnishing, its the sanding, masking (and sanding and masking) that I don't like that much. 

Like I said, they pay to have the work done. This is a full service yard.

 

Probably a full service wooden boat yard's worst customer would be someone who's done 'some varnishing' and wants to save a few bucks not putting on a yearly maintenance coat of varnish one year. If the owner is knowledgable, the yard doesn't have to do that. That owner knows why and probably knows his varnishing sucks. :) 

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Kris. Thanks for posting the boat porn. Made my day looking at that boat.  That should be in the boats to be admired thead. 

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At least in New England, I think the cycle of the seasons makes it hard to keep a varnished boat without pro help. It's barely warm enough today to do surface prep outside or in a dank shed. It could take all of May to apply the new coat(s) with days off for weather.

I suppose if you live the upper class life, opening the Bar Harbor house around July 1, the yard has time to get the boat ready.

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1 hour ago, SemiSalt said:

At least in New England, I think the cycle of the seasons makes it hard to keep a varnished boat without pro help. It's barely warm enough today to do surface prep outside or in a dank shed. It could take all of May to apply the new coat(s) with days off for weather.

I suppose if you live the upper class life, opening the Bar Harbor house around July 1, the yard has time to get the boat ready.

I would be astonished if that boat didn't live in a heated indoor shed... one that's also probably bigger than my house!

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2 hours ago, SemiSalt said:

At least in New England, I think the cycle of the seasons makes it hard to keep a varnished boat without pro help. It's barely warm enough today to do surface prep outside or in a dank shed. It could take all of May to apply the new coat(s) with days off for weather.

I suppose if you live the upper class life, opening the Bar Harbor house around July 1, the yard has time to get the boat ready.

If you're going to own a bright finished big boat, that's how you have to live.

That's why they are so rare. It's like keeping a friggin' piano at the foot of the garden.

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I do... Lioness has not been varnished in more than 10 yrs, and is decidedly scruffy. Last time we stopped in SW Harbor the service manager begged me to leave her for the winter, so they could make her “right”. That would have involved peeling deck, wooding all trim and his estimate was >10x annual maintenance budget. 

So we sail, instead of hours of varnishing.

retirement in 5-8 years and perhaps I’ll have more time. 

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2 hours ago, SemiSalt said:

At least in New England, I think the cycle of the seasons makes it hard to keep a varnished boat without pro help. It's barely warm enough today to do surface prep outside or in a dank shed. It could take all of May to apply the new coat(s) with days off for weather.

I suppose if you live the upper class life, opening the Bar Harbor house around July 1, the yard has time to get the boat ready.

Most of the the ~40 B-40s in the “B-40” shed are in the water 3 months, and the shed 9. Back in ‘06 the August discount on a varnish job was $5000.    

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Can anyone close to this make an informed estimate of the ten-year average for keeping one of these varnished beauties in a full-service yard?

Yes, I know if I have to ask I can't afford. I don't want, and have no illusions that I could afford. I'm just curious

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Even a plastic boat in a NE full-service yard costs about 15k a year to commission and de-commission, not including heated storage. 

I was once sent the bill for a largish wooden boat by mistake. It was 6 digits. 

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1 hour ago, Priscilla said:

This couple sail and varnish.

Sunstone 

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Sunstone has always been one of my favorite boats. :wub:

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1 hour ago, Priscilla said:

This couple sail and varnish.

Sunstone 

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Are you sure they varnish? There is a difference between varnishing and writing a check to varnish!

It is a beautiful boat, but if I would have to varnish that I would never go out sailing! And you guessed it: I rather sail!

 

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9 minutes ago, AnotherSailor said:

Are you sure they varnish? There is a difference between varnishing and writing a check to varnish!

It is a beautiful boat, but if I would have to varnish that I would never go out sailing! And you guessed it: I rather sail!

 

No checks here just work.

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43 minutes ago, Elegua said:

Even a plastic boat in a NE full-service yard costs about 15k a year to commission and de-commission, not including heated storage. 

I was once sent the bill for a largish wooden boat by mistake. It was 6 digits. 

Eeek.  I was guessing $30k – $50k.

But 6 even at low digits, you're probably talking half or a third of the resale value.

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13 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Eeek.  I was guessing $30k – $50k.

But 6 even at low digits, you're probably talking half or a third of the resale value.

Every year.

It's time to Cetol my handrails again. I figure 3 hours the first day, one hour each successive day.

I'm so plebian.

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Not sure if this is a common saying, but I once heard that if you want to own a wooden boat you need to be retired or be a millionaire, but ideally you are both. 

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Night Runner has always been done by the owner and/or crew.  That's why he races, so he has some nonpaid help.
About every 8-9 years she gets wooded and 7-9 coats laid on.  Two coats yearly maintenance.

The hull is not such a big job.  Two people will do a hull side (roll and tip) in the same amount of time as another is doing the toe rail, due to the cutting in on the toe rail.  If conditions are right the hull can get two coats on each side in a day. 

The real time sink is the cutting in.

 

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1 hour ago, AnotherSailor said:

Not sure if this is a common saying, but I once heard that if you want to own a wooden boat you need to be retired or be a millionaire, but ideally you are both. 

With the sort of bills described here, a mere millionaire couldn't afford this game

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Sunstone do refreshing coats, on the water. 

We have a lot of bright work and all done by us, except for the spars last year. It is NOT concours quality, but we get by. Our life has been changed by Awlwood. It comes from New Zealand and used to have an even nastier name - Uroxsys I think, which sounds like a nasty medical condition. I think our first use was three or four years ago and that still looks like new. I’m not aware of a downside, except its high cost, which by volume is about the same as a good second growth claret  

And I like working on the boat. It’s the work sort of work that keeps on getting in the way. You’ll not be surprised to know how much maintenance time and cost is spent on mechanical and electrical stuff, which is common to all boats. 

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+1; I've owned and maintained both wooden and timber boats for >25 years now. For the same amount of brightwork and systems complexity there's no appreciable difference between the effort involved to keep either in good condition, provided the wooden boat starts out that way.

(Don't see many bright-finished topsides in our part of the world tho'!)

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For years I varnished teak handrails coamings dorade box’s trims etc one season took it all off and just went sailing.

Been over ten years and sure don’t miss it at all.

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I'm in the middle on this. I don't like a sterile, plastic boat but I don't want to be a slave to a wooden boat. 

Teak hatch boards, grab rails and various bits of trim are fine, and add some warmth. I can keep up with those, and don't mind doing so. I just do it in the winter, when I'm not sailing anyway. Most of the pieces can be brought home.

In the past, I've used Cetol because I've only done external brightwork. This past winter, I replaced my rotted out cabin sole and had to select and apply "varnish." (A UV stable, oil-based polyurethane).  According to everyone who's seen the job up close, I've done a good job and the finish is diamond-hard. It'll last for years.  The rest of the interior is wiped down with teak oil twice per year and only takes about an hour.

The result is a boat that still has some character and still lets me spend the bulk of my time sailing instead of wielding a brush.

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This place is pretty savvy. It costs a lot of money to have a full service boat yard fully care for a fiberglass boat. Like somebody said, 15k would be a good starting point. I think these Concordia's, comparing a similar base rate, would be about 5k more. The extra would be in the extra coatings that wooden boats need. When these Concordia's get 'tired' and need a major re-build, you don't want that bill,...

 

A bright hull isn't any more cost in comparison to the other Concordia's that get the same treatment, a coat on the topsides every year. They could let the paint go longer, but they don't want to.

 

The irony of these old yard maintained wooden boats is, they are the only boats that look brand new, - every spring! If you want that, brand new look,  with a fiberglass boat, you'll pay a premium as well. 

 

The hardest working boat I know of, is a wooden Alden schooner. It sails daily all season out of our harbor in Maine. In the fall it gets hauled out for a week or two(max), the owners (husband and wife and one deck hand) do ALL the work. In November it launches and they sail to the Caribbean, via Bermuda, where it repeats the same grueling schedule. It's protected by paint and varnish(including the spruce spars). The secret? They know how to do it. They built the boat, he's an accomplished boat builder. 

 

She mostly takes care of the brightwork. I said to her once, "People say you can't take care of varnish in the Caribbean". She replied, "I've heard that."

 

That boat 'sails' more than 99% of boats on the water. It doesn't lose a minute of sailing, due to varnishing(it can't, it had a mortgage from the build). 

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A better yard cost comparison in a 60 year old Concordia vs fiberglass boat, would be a similarly aged Hinckley B40. 

Or this Rhodes Reliant. The biggest difference I see in annual costs is that the Rhodes get's a one part topsides treatment, every,....? years. We all know that's a big project and costs $$$. 

The Concordia gets the one part roll and tip. The topsides are continually prepped so that work is minimal(compared to the one part that can take weeks). Often I see these boats rolled and tipped, outside because space becomes dear in spring(you probably save $$ for a gnat or two). 

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If you're in this game of gleaming classic plastic boats - like a well kept B40 - you don't see them getting too worn(too much H peer pressure in this area) . So the next awlgrip job comes due pretty fast.

Who comes out ahead in yard bills? 

This is one reason I like my boat. It doesn't have the following of a Concordia, B40, or the value. No return for the last 10% of quality a boatyard would give me. I'm a full hands on owner, do everything and store outside under a tarp (my inside storage splurge is a new 30x50', every fall!!). :)

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, sam_crocker said:

Night Runner has always been done by the owner and/or crew.  That's why he races, so he has some nonpaid help.
About every 8-9 years she gets wooded and 7-9 coats laid on.  Two coats yearly maintenance.

The hull is not such a big job.  Two people will do a hull side (roll and tip) in the same amount of time as another is doing the toe rail, due to the cutting in on the toe rail.  If conditions are right the hull can get two coats on each side in a day. 

The real time sink is the cutting in.

 

 

I didn't know Night Runner had moved to Mexico?

 

 

6 hours ago, Fleetwood said:

+1; I've owned and maintained both wooden and timber boats for >25 years now. For the same amount of brightwork and systems complexity there's no appreciable difference between the effort involved to keep either in good condition, provided the wooden boat starts out that way.

(Don't see many bright-finished topsides in our part of the world tho'!)

 

I have a timber boat and I reccon it is far easier to maintain than your wooden one................

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I kept a SW-42 at Hinckley's for some years. Indoor heated storage, varnish done every winter on toerail, grabrails, dorades, hatches, companionway, instrument pod, cockpit table, coaming (fully lined with varnished teak), and lazarette hatch. Unlike most Concordia's, she was systems rich, with diesel heat, full electronics, reefer, electric winches, electric in-mast, autopilot, etc. . Over the course of time I replaced the motor, reefer, holding tank, electronics, did a bunch of rewiring. She was maintained to very high Hinckley standards. When I moved her to Cape Cod it was for better, not cheaper service, she also had indoor heated storage there.

She was also kept in compliance for offshore Cat 1 racing, as she did Bermuda every other year. That safety shit ain't cheap.

We would pick up the boat each year in pristine condition, and return her with a season's wear and tear. They had the winter to set her back to right. The wife's cosmetic standards are higher than mine. My standards for mechanical and sailing function are very high, as we had a demanding sailing schedule.

The person who said $40-60K/yr is right in the ballpark.

Before you say "what an asshole", consider that I live 500 miles from the coast of Texas, 2000 miles from the boat. I didn't inherit my money, I'm the president and CEO of a business which I started,  and wouldn't have time to varnish even if I lived nearby. My wife and I love to sail, this is how we manage. The kids were little when we got the Hinckley, summer on a sailboat on the coast of Maine is pretty magical for an 8 year old.

Also, there are at least a few people whom I met through this website who got their first offshore rides on my boat. For those with long memories, MoeAlfa is one, timFordi550, Slick470, D'ranger, Bmiller. I still owe PY a ride.

The new boat is wood, larger, more varnish, will have, if anything, a more demanding schedule, and is being kept at Brooklin Boat Yard, who know their stuff but again, ain't cheap.

OK, now you can say "what an asshole".B)

 

 

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Awlwood is going to make my varnish schedule disappear for the most part for the next 5 years. The Epiphanes didn’t cut it for more than a couple of years.

Busy working it today to get a first coat on a lot of primed, bookmarched mahogany before the rain comes tonight 

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50 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

I kept a SW-42 at Hinckley's for some years. Indoor heated storage, varnish done every winter on toerail, grabrails, dorades, hatches, companionway, instrument pod, cockpit table, coaming (fully lined with varnished teak), and lazarette hatch. Unlike most Concordia's, she was systems rich, with diesel heat, full electronics, reefer, electric winches, electric in-mast, autopilot, etc. . Over the course of time I replaced the motor, reefer, holding tank, electronics, did a bunch of rewiring. She was maintained to very high Hinckley standards. When I moved her to Cape Cod it was for better, not cheaper service, she also had indoor heated storage there.

She was also kept in compliance for offshore Cat 1 racing, as she did Bermuda every other year. That safety shit ain't cheap.

We would pick up the boat each year in pristine condition, and return her with a season's wear and tear. They had the winter to set her back to right. The wife's cosmetic standards are higher than mine. My standards for mechanical and sailing function are very high, as we had a demanding sailing schedule.

The person who said $40-60K/yr is right in the ballpark.

Before you say "what an asshole", consider that I live 500 miles from the coast of Texas, 2000 miles from the boat. I didn't inherit my money, I'm the president and CEO of a business which I started,  and wouldn't have time to varnish even if I lived nearby. My wife and I love to sail, this is how we manage. The kids were little when we got the Hinckley, summer on a sailboat on the coast of Maine is pretty magical for an 8 year old.

Also, there are at least a few people whom I met through this website who got their first offshore rides on my boat. For those with long memories, MoeAlfa is one, timFordi550, Slick470, D'ranger, Bmiller. I still owe PY a ride.

The new boat is wood, larger, more varnish, will have, if anything, a more demanding schedule, and is being kept at Brooklin Boat Yard, who know their stuff but again, ain't cheap.

OK, now you can say "what an asshole".B)

Not at all - you apparently have more money than most but you aren't spending it on vulgar flash like so many do - no fleets of cruise ship sized yachts and 20,000' houses scattered around the world and all the other obscene displays that are so popular these days.

Being wealthy enough to do what you described is a good thing, buying multiple 300'+ motor yachts to scatter around the world so you can fly to them in your private airliner isn't.

It's simply a matter of good taste if nothing else.

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In our area we can sail year round, boat sheds are rare and most boats sit in the water full time. The mild climate int the PNW is easy on varnish, but the wet weather makes working on it a challenge. Since I have a full time job any day off with weather good enough to varnish was a day good to sail. My last FRP boat had wood trim including toe rails, a total of 60 linear feet of fussy work that took many hours. My new boat has no exterior wood and I do not miss it all. 

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6 minutes ago, steele said:

In our area we can sail year round, boat sheds are rare and most boats sit in the water full time. The mild climate int the PNW is easy on varnish, but the wet weather makes working on it a challenge. Since I have a full time job any day off with weather good enough to varnish was a day good to sail. My last FRP boat had wood trim including toe rails, a total of 60 linear feet of fussy work that took many hours. My new boat has no exterior wood and I do not miss it all. 

It would be difficult to maintain varnish if you sail year round in the PNW. You'd have to at least have some down time and splurge on some dry storage, be it a haul out or some sort of cover. 

 

I use my cover in the spring by opening the ends, rolling it back for good weather, closing it up for drying. We don't sail year round so it's easy to find the time.  If the weather doesn't cooperate, you gotta cover it with something. But we all cover our boats in NE. I don't know how you would get any work done in a climate where rain is the norm. 

 

Sounds smart to do without the wood. Most wood on fiberglass boats is gratuitous, anyway. 

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1 hour ago, Cruisin Loser said:

I kept a SW-42 at Hinckley's for some years. Indoor heated storage, varnish done every winter on toerail, grabrails, dorades, hatches, companionway, instrument pod, cockpit table, coaming (fully lined with varnished teak), and lazarette hatch. Unlike most Concordia's, she was systems rich, with diesel heat, full electronics, reefer, electric winches, electric in-mast, autopilot, etc. . Over the course of time I replaced the motor, reefer, holding tank, electronics, did a bunch of rewiring. She was maintained to very high Hinckley standards. When I moved her to Cape Cod it was for better, not cheaper service, she also had indoor heated storage there.

She was also kept in compliance for offshore Cat 1 racing, as she did Bermuda every other year. That safety shit ain't cheap.

We would pick up the boat each year in pristine condition, and return her with a season's wear and tear. They had the winter to set her back to right. The wife's cosmetic standards are higher than mine. My standards for mechanical and sailing function are very high, as we had a demanding sailing schedule.

The person who said $40-60K/yr is right in the ballpark.

Before you say "what an asshole", consider that I live 500 miles from the coast of Texas, 2000 miles from the boat. I didn't inherit my money, I'm the president and CEO of a business which I started,  and wouldn't have time to varnish even if I lived nearby. My wife and I love to sail, this is how we manage. The kids were little when we got the Hinckley, summer on a sailboat on the coast of Maine is pretty magical for an 8 year old.

Also, there are at least a few people whom I met through this website who got their first offshore rides on my boat. For those with long memories, MoeAlfa is one, timFordi550, Slick470, D'ranger, Bmiller. I still owe PY a ride.

The new boat is wood, larger, more varnish, will have, if anything, a more demanding schedule, and is being kept at Brooklin Boat Yard, who know their stuff but again, ain't cheap.

OK, now you can say "what an asshole".B)

 

 

Not at all. If it weren't for people like you, we'd starve to death on the coast of Maine! And I'm not talking just about boats. Many of the more expensive boats that are cared for in my neighborhood are owned by people with second, third, or fourth homes in the area. The high cost for them to maintain their yacht, is often less than what they pay their gardeners(I know, I manage some properties). 

I work for some great people that own a few homes in my neighborhood(large family). They made their money too and are some of the nicest folks I've ever worked for, and now call friends. 

My experience has been that assholes are few, and come from ALL l financial levels,... and that you are just around the corner, from the next one. :) 

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I built a tent over mine and worked on a few bad frame ends and sanded my winter away in relative warmth and definitely dry at all times. Now that the weather has broken, the tent is broken down until next December and the Awlwood is flying! I just finished first coating the taffrail, toerail, companionway and other trim that I couldn’t get to in time last fall. 

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4 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

I built a tent over mine and worked on a few bad frame ends and sanded my winter away in relative warmth and definitely dry at all times. Now that the weather has broken, the tent is broken down until next December and the Awlwood is flying! I just finished first coating the taffrail, toerail, companionway and other trim that I couldn’t get to in time last fall. 

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I'm not familiar with Awlwood but I'm for anything that protects brightwork. It would be expensive to replace those parts, you'd be a fool not to protect it. 

I use a tarp and keep the boat dry in the winter. You can get a jump on the season. The biggest drawback of working below, is wind. If it's blowing, a tarp is too noisy(for me) to stand more than an hour or so. I just don't go unless it's calm. There's plenty of time. Shrink wrap is quieter, but I have to take it all off or roast in the spring. The tarp gives climate control. 

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1 hour ago, Cruisin Loser said:

I kept a SW-42 at Hinckley's for some years
[snip]
The person who said $40-60K/yr is right in the ballpark.
[snip]
Before you say "what an asshole", consider that I live 500 miles from the coast of Texas,
[snip]
The new boat is wood, larger, more varnish
[snip]
OK, now you can say "what an asshole".B)

Bad news, CL.  You fail, abysmally.

On those facts, you score 0% asshole. "Nul points", as the French judges say of every British song in Eurovision.

V few people who own cars do their own maintenance work.  Hardly anyone who owns a high-end exotic car does their own maintenance work; they pay someone else to do it.

A yacht like that is way more complex than a car, with a vastly wider set of skills involved than in maintaining a fancy Merc or a Bentley.  You have the cash to pay to have it done well by skilled people, so why not?

An asshole would buy a fancy boat and let it deteriorate.   Or send it off to some low-wage country to pay the tradesman wages which wouldn't keep them out of the gutter in the economy in which the owner makes his money.

Another sort of asshole might buy a boat so huge it clogs up ports and wrecks the sea bed, or so damn ugly that it shouts "Plebs, I have so much money I can afford ugly".

I'll be honest.  I'd much prefer a world in which highly-skilled people like you didn't get so much big money while so many hard-working people live in poverty.  But you didn't design that mad economic system, and given that it puts so much in your pocket, you are spending it responsibly by putting it back into the economy in which you live and made the money.

Plus you're an open, friendly, likeable guy.

So, I'm sorry, CL, but the answer is clear:  You don''t even qualify for entry to the screening test for the assholeness-for-dummies course :D

 

 

 

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^^ I agree. C.L.is not an Ass Hole. According the SA rating system, he is a Kiss-Ass. :P

BTW, I did my annual Cetol re-coat last week. I've got two short hand rails, companion way trim, two winch bases, one cockpit cubby trim. It took two hours. My J22 was brutal: everything on the H-Boat, plus toe rail and cockpit coaming.

 

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The only logical way to get from "don't do my own varnish" to "asshole" is a general association of money with assholes.

My varnish bill is around $8k/yr. Yes, I'd rather sail than varnish. Classic plastic like Loser's old tub.

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Even a minimum amount of brightwork is expensive to maintain professionally. I have only a caprail and eyebrow, I've paid and been quoted $2-3K for a coat or two. If you want to sail, best not to have ANY wood in the sun. If you must have it, then a great big continuous slab right in the middle would be the best - easy to mask, sand, and coat.

The brightwork craze has more followers in New England (or England) than elsewhere. You have a season that runs about 3 months, hauling every year, and plenty of time on the hard to to the work. In California or Florida, it isn't simply a maintenance coat at launch time each year. The boat is in the water and under the sun year 'round. A maintenance coat is required about every 3 months. Even the PNW is much easier on varnish. 

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I guesstimate my brightwork restoration is about $50,000 in yard value. I’m glad I did it myself this time.

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11 minutes ago, kdh said:

The only logical way to get from "don't do my own varnish" to "asshole" is a general association of money with assholes.

My varnish bill is around $8k/yr. Yes, I'd rather sail than varnish. Classic plastic like Loser's old tub.

We LOVED that tub.

Sail69 at the helm.

5adf9ac93ebfb_IMG_7379mhrcopy2.thumb.jpg.cf919c90beaf5a3cc02b938364c09b9a.jpg

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35 minutes ago, kdh said:

The only logical way to get from "don't do my own varnish" to "asshole" is a general association of money with assholes.

Money does not make anyone an asshole.  Lack of money does prevent someone being an asshole.  But big money does give an asshole many more opportunities to display their inner asshole without facing the consequences which less wealthy folk would face.

That's why I find it v interesting to watch people who become rich, however that happens.  Is there an inner asshole ready to escape?  Or a golden heart now given free rein?

Plentiful varnish is like a fancy car or a mansion or any symbol of wealth: an indication that the owner is free to decide who they want to be

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Money doesn't change people, it amplifies them. If a person tends to be an egotistical prick, make them a billionaire and they're insufferable. If a person tends to be kind and generous, money will turn them into a philanthropist. 

Money doesn't make you a better person. Getting up in the morning and trying to be a better person might, though.  

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CL is a great guy - someone with assets who shares generously with those of us less fortunate, even if some of us are commies (inside joke).  And that "tub" is awesome, would go around the world on it.  As to the thread title - says everyone on the Gulf Coast - if not for plastic there would be very few boats here.  Even the last Harpoon I had I kept inside, the seats required way too much work otherwise.  I picked it up cheap as the previous owner just didn't keep it up, well actually that went for the one before that.  Plastic is fantastic here, even on day sailors/dinghys.   the perfect boat for this area has a tiller that is easily removed and redone in December.  If were fortunate enough to live in Maine or the PNW would might be an option, but alas and alack....  but speaking of wood hoping to get the chance to see Restive this summer!

 

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My neighbor has his 2001 Bene 50 for sale and hired a crew to bring it to salable condition; new running rigging, hatches, engine service, complete hull and deck buff and wax, yada, yada. It looked very tired and beat up after a couple of years in the Caribbean, a trip or two to Puerto Vallarta and then just sitting in the slip in San Diego and I have to say the crew worked like beavers and the results are spectacular. Have a look:  http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2001/Beneteau-50-3191623/San-Diego/CA/United-States?refSource=standard listing#.Wt-p94jwaM8

I don't know how much was spent but I did ask the guy who wooded and put six coats of Schooners on the cap rails, hand rails and trim plus sanded and sealed the teak decks how much and he said he was getting paid $2500 plus materials. That does sound like a bargain to me based on what some of you others are posting. Glad I got his phone number. 

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There are some very civilised and amiable people around here.

In the context of this discussion, does anyone know the word for the opposite of an arsehole (that's English for "asshole")? 
I ask because I often find myself describing people who are successful and rich as "not an arsehole", meaning that despite their success don't have an egocentric view of the world, and treat other people with respect. I wish I had a non-negative way of conveying that - the only word I know is the yiddish word "mensch", but I don't know how widespread that is. "Gentleman" doubtless once had that meaning, but it doesn't really cut it these days. 

Any suggestions? 2L, the Irish must have a word for it?

 

 

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58 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

We LOVED that tub.

Sail69 at the helm.

5adf9ac93ebfb_IMG_7379mhrcopy2.thumb.jpg.cf919c90beaf5a3cc02b938364c09b9a.jpg

Can't imagine why. ;)

Could it be because it's one of the most beautiful boats ever built?

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1 minute ago, Mr. Ed said:

There are some very civilised and amiable people around here.

In the context of this discussion, does anyone know the word for the opposite of an arsehole (that's English for "asshole")? 
I ask because I often find myself describing people who are successful and rich as "not an arsehole", meaning that despite their success don't have an egocentric view of the world, and treat other people with respect. I wish I had a non-negative way of conveying that - the only word I know is the yiddish word "mensch", but I don't know how widespread that is. "Gentleman" doubtless once had that meaning, but it doesn't really cut it these days. 

Any suggestions? 2L, the Irish must have a word for it?

Nice guy?

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51 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Plentiful varnish is like a fancy car or a mansion or any symbol of wealth: an indication that the owner is free to decide who they want to be

I don't know - some people with very little money have beautifully varnished boats, albeit small ones. There's an element of choice in what we do with our time and money, no matter how little of it we have. 

One of the strangest reactions I get from people who don't have wooden boats is the accusatory "Oh, you wouldn't catch me spending my time doing that". I want to ask them what they do spend their time on, and I bet it's not helping down at the food bank or soup kitchen.

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CL is a true gent . Spoke with him and was left awestruck by his Texas swagger, yet intense intellect. Deep guy there...

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The older I get the less wood I want on the outside of my boats.

When I started out, I would have sold my soul for a carvel Garden Walloon I saw just after it was launched (Angelglow for you locals) but now I just want plastic and stainless out in the weather - even that requires a lot of maintenance after one of our wet winters.

image.png.5c9aaefba896aae4aea8599154139718.png

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13 minutes ago, Mr. Ed said:

There are some very civilised and amiable people around here.

In the context of this discussion, does anyone know the word for the opposite of an arsehole (that's English for "asshole")? 
I ask because I often find myself describing people who are successful and rich as "not an arsehole", meaning that despite their success don't have an egocentric view of the world, and treat other people with respect. I wish I had a non-negative way of conveying that - the only word I know is the yiddish word "mensch", but I don't know how widespread that is. "Gentleman" doubtless once had that meaning, but it doesn't really cut it these days. 

Any suggestions? 2L, the Irish must have a word for it?

 

 

Mensch is good. English translation: Stand-up guy.

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If there's a Hebrew or Yiddish word for it then that'll be the best word. :D

Shlub

Bupkes

Gonif

Putz

Schlump

Shlemeil

Chutzpah

Klutz

Schlep

Schmooze

Schmuck

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Loser you are an arsehole of the worst kind.

You promised me a sail as well but now seem to have taken me off the list!!!

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45 minutes ago, paps49 said:

Loser you are an arsehole of the worst kind.

Gimme a minute, I'm just going to bask in this for a while.:)

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1 hour ago, Mr. Ed said:

There are some very civilised and amiable people around here.

In the context of this discussion, does anyone know the word for the opposite of an arsehole (that's English for "asshole")? 
I ask because I often find myself describing people who are successful and rich as "not an arsehole", meaning that despite their success don't have an egocentric view of the world, and treat other people with respect. I wish I had a non-negative way of conveying that - the only word I know is the yiddish word "mensch", but I don't know how widespread that is. "Gentleman" doubtless once had that meaning, but it doesn't really cut it these days. 

Any suggestions? 2L, the Irish must have a word for it?

Ed, in Ireland we specialise in hauling each other back from excess. So Irish-English is full of reproachful phrases like "getting above yourself", "getting notions", and "losing the run of yourself". The last one was almost worn to death as the Celtic Tiger died.

Fulsome praise is a bit rarer, and usually taken with suspicion or implicit warning.  "Grand" actually means "OK, but only just", so when the Gardai say "you're grand" they actually mean it's your final warning.  When someone says their neighbour is "grand" it means that their own heroic self-restraint has somehow avoided all-out war despite massive and well-justified grievance, but they don't want to voice their indignation for fear of a starting that war and triggering a multi-generational rift.

So we don't have any word with the unqualified sincere praise which is conveyed by "mensch".  All our praise comes with an implicit warning that it should be massively discounted.

Irish women tend to be sweet to each others faces, then damn with faint praise in absentia.

Irish men love playful insult, which like praise has an inverted meaning best captured by the poet Pat Ingoldsby in his  'Terms of Endearment':

Two Irishmen meet
They like one another.
They are friends.
"There ye are ye bollix."
"Fair play to you you c*nt."
"Go way outta that ye contrary f*cker."
"Ask me arse you tit."
Very shortly they will be best friends. God alone knows how they will express
This extra closeness.

 

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50 minutes ago, paps49 said:

Loser you are an arsehole of the worst kind.

You promised me a sail as well but now seem to have taken me off the list!!!

Paps, you might want to try a different charm school. I'm not sure your current one has entirely cracked the code

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Ahhhhh. That feels good. Thanks Paps. 

My very favorite people call me up and call me asshole, shitmitten, twatwaffle, fucknuckle, or queefbubble. My mother, 89 years old, bless her, not long ago accused me of being "one of the very first Zika babies". 

Paps, of course you have a ride, but you have to SHOW UP!

Oddly, just the other day I had a cancellation, and have an opening for 2 for this years "World's Most Beautiful Sailboat Race", the Eggemoggin Reach Regatta. August 4. We may do the feeder races, and will definitely cruise for a week or so after, for all of which you are cordially invited, so long as you agree to address me as "hey, asshole", or something more creative. You fartblossom.B)

 

 

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1 hour ago, Cruisin Loser said:

"World's Most Beautiful Sailboat Race", the Eggemoggin Reach Regatta

We sailed through the regatta several years ago, and C.L. is spot on.

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Lovely boats all, but maybe I'm just dense here, can someone explain why they don't spray instead of roll and tip?  Is it a tradition thing or a function thing?  Here the only wood on boats is usually getting vacuumed out as compost from transom or stringers.   I often spray interior panels with varnish if I can remove them.  Seems much faster and more consistent.   Also can someone tell me the difference between a wood and timber boat, I have tried google without success.

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varnish and I have a mixed relationship

I apply it primarily to keep the moisture away from the wood - so I have drips and runs - they worry me not.

This has been the first warm week of the year so I have been going bonkers with the varnish brush - mast, hatchboards, dinghy thwarts, oars, galley box all got a minimal sanding and a good slapping with the varnish brush

Life is too short for perfection.

Having said that a rainy  evening in the shed getting high on varnish fumes while listening to Pickety Witch is not without its guikty pleasures

 

 

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26 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

varnish and I have a mixed relationship

I apply it primarily to keep the moisture away from the wood - so I have drips and runs - they worry me not.

This has been the first warm week of the year so I have been going bonkers with the varnish brush - mast, hatchboards, dinghy thwarts, oars, galley box all got a minimal sanding and a good slapping with the varnish brush

Life is too short for perfection.

Having said that a rainy  evening in the shed getting high on varnish fumes while listening to Pickety Witch is not without its guikty pleasures

 

Thanks, I should have seen that one coming I suppose, it was the wood vs timber comparison above that got me wondering.  For your use slathering away makes perfect sense, in my dad's case he spent far too much money and years building it and having it finished perfectly to begin with, and it is always kept under cover or indoors so it is irritating to see the mess on the hull.  For the type of perfection and budgets being posted here a brush seemed an interesting choice though for a whole hull with a crew paid hourly unless it was a tradition or something.

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1 hour ago, dylan winter said:

 

Life is too short for perfection.

 

 

 

Oh come on Dylan, I suppose that's why you're so careless with your filming and edits!

It's just a matter of priorities. A good job well done (something that's a bit alien to me, actually, since I'm a hamfisted boat bimbler) is a thing of great pleasure.  

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8 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Ahhhhh. That feels good. Thanks Paps. 

My very favorite people call me up and call me asshole, shitmitten, twatwaffle, fucknuckle, or queefbubble. My mother, 89 years old, bless her, not long ago accused me of being "one of the very first Zika babies". 

Paps, of course you have a ride, but you have to SHOW UP!

Oddly, just the other day I had a cancellation, and have an opening for 2 for this years "World's Most Beautiful Sailboat Race", the Eggemoggin Reach Regatta. August 4. We may do the feeder races, and will definitely cruise for a week or so after, for all of which you are cordially invited, so long as you agree to address me as "hey, asshole", or something more creative. You fartblossom.B)

 

 

I'll check our diary Stronzo, many thanks for the invite.

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For those asking about why no spraying.

These hulls are usually done with high end 2 Pac clear which is illegal to spray outdoors in most places. Something to do with the Isocyanates killing people aparently

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2 hours ago, dylan winter said:

varnish and I have a mixed relationship

I apply it primarily to keep the moisture away from the wood - so I have drips and runs - they worry me not.

This has been the first warm week of the year so I have been going bonkers with the varnish brush - mast, hatchboards, dinghy thwarts, oars, galley box all got a minimal sanding and a good slapping with the varnish brush

Life is too short for perfection.

Having said that a rainy  evening in the shed getting high on varnish fumes while listening to Pickety Witch is not without its guikty pleasures

 

 

You would be better off with an oil Dylan like Cetol mentioned above. Much easier to prep and use and no runs and such.

Mate you would have to be high on something to endure that video :)

Bad news is you would need to strip off the varnish to switch.

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I agree- Cetol is much easier to apply and maintain. The original formula turned the wood a strange, orange color. Cetol "Natural" is much better.  In the upper climes where Dylan lives, it'll last for years.

Cruisin' Loser-  "systems rich"  love that term!  It's a balancing act to keep the boat simple and easy to maintain, yet comfortable and convenient.

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Cetol? Admitting to using Cetol is kind of like telling the world that you learned to sail by watching La Vagabonde videos...

Bruce

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5 hours ago, jgbrown said:

Lovely boats all, but maybe I'm just dense here, can someone explain why they don't spray instead of roll and tip?  Is it a tradition thing or a function thing?  Here the only wood on boats is usually getting vacuumed out as compost from transom or stringers.   I often spray interior panels with varnish if I can remove them.  Seems much faster and more consistent.   Also can someone tell me the difference between a wood and timber boat, I have tried google without success.

Not dense. Total function. Brushing coatings for boat builders is an ancient skill. Part of their craft. I never met a boat builder that couldn't lay on an even coating with a brush. 

A boat builder or anyone who knows wood, sees varnish - primarily - as a good sealer. It keeps water out which destroys wood(even teak). Not better than paint (not even as good is in some applications) but clear. They want parts of boats to remain visible for longevity (spars, houses, rails). These are real functioning boat parts. 

With varnish as a sealer they know it's the thickness of the coat that is needed. Best coat of varnish is the thickest that won't run or sag. Any craftsperson, maker, artist, gets good at what they do. I believe for craftspeople(I've spent my life with them), there is no reason not to do things at a high level of skill.

It doesn't take a skilled joiner longer to make a tight fitting dovetail joint than it it does to make a sloppy dovetail joint. And so it goes with brushing on coatings. The skilled don't sand much (much less than the unskilled), don't tape much, don't brush much(that would spoil there finish and cut into their coffee break). 

So I think that's why they brush instead of spray. Brushing is better all around, especially for varnish. The craftsman sees a well sealed house. The dock walker sees bling. 

40793495175_b3731ab642_b.jpg

What I have observed is the addition of rolling and tipping by these craftspeople. The toughest part of laying on varnish is to get an even coating. The checkerboard pattern was an old standby for an even coating. These days, this boat yard which hand brushes dozens and dozens of hulls, houses and spars, with various coatings, applies nearly all of it, roll and tip. Times saver, better results. 

This hull, unusual in that they used a 2 part paint, was rolled and tipped, outside. Why spray when you can do this, and with other boats all around? 

27823396778_df8df5a39f_h.jpg

Plus, brushing allows them to easily repairs nicks and dings. 

41653526622_17ccefff09_h.jpg

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5 hours ago, dylan winter said:

varnish and I have a mixed relationship

I apply it primarily to keep the moisture away from the wood - so I have drips and runs - they worry me not.

This has been the first warm week of the year so I have been going bonkers with the varnish brush - mast, hatchboards, dinghy thwarts, oars, galley box all got a minimal sanding and a good slapping with the varnish brush

Life is too short for perfection.

Having said that a rainy  evening in the shed getting high on varnish fumes while listening to Pickety Witch is not without its guikty pleasures

 

 

Mixed relationship with varnish is good. You use it as a wood sealer which is what it is. There are parts of my boat that I do the same thing. Usually they are due for more attention but I don't have the time or desire, but want to keep it protected. 

I won't click this video. 

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19 minutes ago, Kris Cringle said:

Not dense. Total function. Brushing coatings for boat builders is an ancient skill. Part of their craft. I never met a boat builder that couldn't lay on an even coating with a brush. 

A boat builder or anyone who knows wood, sees varnish - primarily - as a good sealer. It keeps water out which destroys wood(even teak). Not better than paint (not even as good is in some applications) but clear. They want parts of boats to remain visible for longevity (spars, houses, rails). These are real functioning boat parts. 

With varnish as a sealer they know it's the thickness of the coat that is needed. Best coat of varnish is the thickest that won't run or sag. Any craftsperson, maker, artist, gets good at what they do. I believe for craftspeople(I've spent my life with them), there is no reason not to do things at a high level of skill.

It doesn't take a skilled joiner longer to make a tight fitting dovetail joint than it it does to make a sloppy dovetail joint. And so it goes with brushing on coatings. The skilled don't sand much (much less than the unskilled), don't tape much, don't brush much(that would spoil there finish and cut into their coffee break). 

So I think that's why they brush instead of spray. Brushing is better all around, especially for varnish. The craftsman sees a well sealed house. The dock walker sees bling. 

40793495175_b3731ab642_b.jpg

What I have observed is the addition of rolling and tipping by these craftspeople. The toughest part of laying on varnish is to get an even coating. The checkerboard pattern was an old standby for an even coating. These days, this boat yard which hand brushes dozens and dozens of hulls, houses and spars, with various coatings, applies nearly all of it, roll and tip. Times saver, better results. 

This hull, unusual in that they used a 2 part paint, was rolled and tipped, outside. Why spray when you can do this, and with other boats all around? 

27823396778_df8df5a39f_h.jpg

Plus, brushing allows them to easily repairs nicks and dings. 

41653526622_17ccefff09_h.jpg

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46 minutes ago, BruceB said:

Cetol? Admitting to using Cetol is kind of like telling the world that you learned to sail by watching La Vagabonde videos...

Bruce

That is funny, Bruce! To be fair to Cetol, La Vagabonde, is equal to the oldest form of Cetol. I remember watching that go onto a new house back in the 80's. It was a color never seen in nature. Bizarre! Clockwork Orange, I think we called. Nasty. 

 

But it's not fair to the new 'easier' coatings that are available. I think they are a good alternative to varnish for many owners and locations that are more severe.  

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I sprayed varnish once. It was Spars for a NY40. Sprayed indoors with a good mask system. The Spars were on lathe