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continous furler line - hardware in the cockpit

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I am currently replacing my worn-out Harken furling system with an structural furler by Colligo. The new furler has a continous furling drive line.

What is the best way to handle the line from the cockpit? Google image search doesn't give me any hints.

I am thinking about simlpe adding two cam cleats next to each other, with the furling drive line extending about 1m behind the cleats. Or does the line need to be tensioned with a bungee cord ?

What are other people using?

Paul

 

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Depends on the sail size, the bigger is probably more simple using snatch block "wheel of death" assembly etc. Go look at some continious furler manufactures who also make continious furler block/cleat hardware like Selden etc.

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I’ve seen a fairly slick solution from Seldon for keeping that line in order from the bow to cockpit.

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our rigger just re-did ours with a block on the furling line with a piece of bungy to keep the line taut. works better than it ever has.

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@Rasputin22 18sqm jib on a Farrier F32.

I just spoke to John. He says, that his furling unit is designed so that it shouldn't need a block+bungee if used  with the supplied drive line. 

That should simplify things. I'll try it out and report. 

Paul 

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1 hour ago, toolbar said:

@Rasputin22 18sqm jib on a Farrier F32.

I just spoke to John. He says, that his furling unit is designed so that it shouldn't need a block+bungee if used  with the supplied drive line. 

That should simplify things. I'll try it out and report. 

Paul 

That is the impression that I got from looking at John's site, good that you were able to speak with him. I'm about to order his largest structural furler unit for a 320 sq ft jib and would like any in use reports and impressions from you if possible. 

image.thumb.png.02f87ac74e35cf1f4c45c08347275374.png

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On 4/24/2018 at 3:14 PM, Rasputin22 said:

That is the impression that I got from looking at John's site, good that you were able to speak with him. I'm about to order his largest structural furler unit for a 320 sq ft jib and would like any in use reports and impressions from you if possible. 

image.thumb.png.02f87ac74e35cf1f4c45c08347275374.png

Am I correct in seeing a furler inside of the forestay? If so then it isn't structural. There is a better options out there.....

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8 hours ago, RImike said:

... a furler inside of the forestay? 

If so then it isn't structural.

^^ Gee wizz ..presence of a forestay doesn't mean everything aft of it is not structural?

Ever heard of inner forestays, cutter rigs, mast bend on MH rigs etc??

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Thanks Jack, I wasn't even going to reply to that comment. The present catamaran that my client has been running for a decade at least has a rotating airfoil mast with single diamonds and the standard 3 wire rig, 2 shrouds and the headstay. Pretty big wires, and the headstay may be a size bigger than the shrouds since it also has to resist the mainsheet tension fore and aft as well as the side shroud loads. The jib on that cat is only about 150 sq ft and is on a Harken furler. The Harken furler has to be large enough to fit over the 5/8" or so headstay AND the turnbuckle so it ends up being a Unit 3 or something way oversized for that small jib. 

    This boat will have Dux standing rigging which is sized to match the stretch of Nitronic Rod so stretch and creep are equivalent. That means the Dux is even larger diameter than the rod but is much stronger in tensile strength and considerably lighter. So I decided we would not bother with a huge furler on the headstay and are using a much lighter, cheaper, and redundant structural furler from Colligo that is still structural since it doesn't rely on a wire luff in the sail. The system is the same one that the OP is using on his F32 with a similar sized sail using soft hanks.  In getting the rig reviewed by the ever more vigilant US Coast Guard engineers they very much like the dedicated bare headstay that is never compromised by the complexity of the furling system. The Coast Guard increasingly more receptive to any rigging solution that eliminates metal to metal shackles, pins, swivels and such and they are impressed by the nature of the Dux/Colligo system in which everything is out in the open where frequent inspection and rinsing is possible. 

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13 hours ago, duncan (the other one) said:

can someone explain to me why you need two cleats?

I would have thought an eye on a bungee for tension behind a single cleat would do the trick.

I suppose it would, but then it’s pretty damned easy to just pop a line in/out of a camcleat; my continuous line is long. 

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20 hours ago, duncan (the other one) said:

can someone explain to me why you need two cleats?

I would have thought an eye on a bungee for tension behind a single cleat would do the trick.

I am not sure that a single cam cleat can hold both lines (or rather both parts of the continous line) securely at the same time. 

Anyway, John suggested a simple horn cleat without any additional tensioning system. I'll try that. 

Paul 

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I have 3 Karver continuous line furler setups with 8mm Marlow MGP Furler 50 line on my Express 37. I have 2 Harken Cam Cleats close together for each one. The furl side has a Harken Extreme angIe Cam Cleat Fairlead on the Cam Cleat, while the lazy side has a standard Flairlead on the Cam Cleat. I snap both lines in, tensioned a bit, to protect from unfurling. To unfurl, I snap both out and get the furler to start turning but once the sail starts opening, the furling line slacks and doesn't move, so no block and bungee needed.The tail is 6-7' long so i can furl while standing with the tiller between my knees. No tangling yet. I sail singlehanded, with a structural furler headstay, inner fore stay, and sprit. Use the right furling line and not just something you have.

While furling singlehanded, you may feel like you need 3 hands. You'll figure it out.

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Here is a photo showing my setup. The pair of cleats that are empty are for the inner forestay that wasn't installed when I took the photo. The set that has the blue & white furler line is the headstay. A similar setup is on the port side, for the sprit.

5ae4de674e738_IMG_2742(2).jpg.c98165b88c9f9ac586c335efb315b83e.jpg

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14 hours ago, toolbar said:

I am not sure that a single cam cleat can hold both lines (or rather both parts of the continous line) securely at the same time. 

Anyway, John suggested a simple horn cleat without any additional tensioning system. I'll try that. 

Paul 

my point is why does it need to?

 

You only need to cleat the line when furled.

 

Unfurled -- the sail is holding the whole shebang in place.

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4 hours ago, duncan (the other one) said:

You only need to cleat the line when furled.

I have the feeling, that we are both missing each other's point. :-)

When furled, the continous line has to be pulled tight and secured into both directions.

If you only cleat one "side", there wouldn't be enough grip of the line around the drum to keep the continous line from slipping. To cleat both sides means either jamming both lines into one cam-cleat (might slip because of twisted/entangled  line) or having two cam cleats, as shown above.

@joe.barry Thanks a lot!

Paul

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On 4/27/2018 at 2:27 PM, jack_sparrow said:

 

^^ Gee wizz ..presence of a forestay doesn't mean everything aft of it is not structural?

Ever heard of inner forestays, cutter rigs, mast bend on MH rigs etc??

Yes, it does. The furler setup in the attached image uses a clamped torsion cable, ergo its not structural.Had it used a Future Fibers / Armare or similar it would be..

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7 hours ago, toolbar said:

I have the feeling, that we are both missing each other's point. :-)

When furled, the continous line has to be pulled tight and secured into both directions.

If you only cleat one "side", there wouldn't be enough grip of the line around the drum to keep the continous line from slipping. To cleat both sides means either jamming both lines into one cam-cleat (might slip because of twisted/entangled  line) or having two cam cleats, as shown above.

@joe.barry Thanks a lot!

Paul

thanks for the explanation.

I think the difference is if you want the sail up and furled for extended periods of time (and vagaries of wind), then you need both lines snugged down tight.

 

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7 hours ago, RImike said:

Yes, it does. The furler setup in the attached image uses a clamped torsion cable, ergo its not structural.Had it used a Future Fibers / Armare or similar it would be

I wasn't referencing the picture. I know the difference.

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I have been struggling with this ... it proves much more tedious than I thought ...specially as for every new setup you have to splice a new continuous line. 

I started with the Selden double cleat. Good gear, but does not work for mas as I  single-hand - cause you need one hand for the line going in and another for the line going out, otherwise they engage into the cleat jaws  automatically (and a third hand for controlling the sheet ).

Now I am experimenting with a ratchet block, on a strong bungee. Much better. I might add a cleat for security. 

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37 minutes ago, Ganzi said:

Now I am experimenting with a ratchet block, on a strong bungee. Much better. I might add a cleat for security. 

Yes the "wheel of death" approach is far simplier to deploy.

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Yep run my driveline aft to a bungee and block and have a horn clear on side of cabin ,   Bungee has enough stretch so I can just grab both drivelines and take a couple of wraps on the horncleat to lock it off.

there are some very expensive fairleads and cleats specifically for drivelines but damn they are expensive ...my block/bungee and horncleat cost less than one double staunchion fairlead from reputable Swedish rigging company

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On 4/29/2018 at 7:08 PM, RImike said:

Yes, it does. The furler setup in the attached image uses a clamped torsion cable, ergo its not structural.Had it used a Future Fibers / Armare or similar it would be..

What definition of a structural are you using there? Why don't you think that a clamped cable can be structual? 

Paul

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On 5/4/2018 at 5:15 AM, toolbar said:

What definition of a structural are you using there? Why don't you think that a clamped cable can be structual? 

Paul

Structural means that it can support a rig on it's own. If you have a 5 ton furler (with a breaking load of 10 tons), the cable should have similar properties. There have been cable tests done by by various manufactures with clamped cables and generally it fails when loads get between 10% (single clamped) - 20% (double clamped) of breaking strength. For a Code 0 or A-Sail that's fine but definitely not for a head sail stay. The only true structural stays are Rod, Wire or engineered cable produced by brands like Future Fibers or Armare.  Clamped cables are for transmitting torque, not supporting loads. 

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Colligo Marine's ELHF uses clamped cables and they seem to be pretty structural to me. http://www.colligomarine.com/shop-all/71sm4f6qh2ztuhf3s0pn8bcms47q10

t least I hope that they are, because otherwise I should fear for my rig starting this season.

@RImike Are you saying, that Colligo sells a product, that is not fit for the advertised use?

Paul

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I have had the same concerns about the clamped cables and even any furler that has a swivel that could fail so on the rig mentioned above I have a dedicated headstay and then the Colligo clamped torque cable set just inside it with the soft hanks on the sail. I am hoping to use Colligo Dux with spliced eyes for the headstay though. 

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28 minutes ago, toolbar said:

Colligo Marine's ELHF uses clamped cables and they seem to be pretty structural to me. http://www.colligomarine.com/shop-all/71sm4f6qh2ztuhf3s0pn8bcms47q10

t least I hope that they are, because otherwise I should fear for my rig starting this season.

@RImike Are you saying, that Colligo sells a product, that is not fit for the advertised use?

Paul

I'm not saying anything about Colligo specifically. You can deduce that with the published loads yourself and perhaps reach out to various cordage manufactures whom have done the tests, such a NER, Hampidjan and others. 

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1 hour ago, Rasputin22 said:

I have had the same concerns about the clamped cables and even any furler that has a swivel that could fail so on the rig mentioned above I have a dedicated headstay and then the Colligo clamped torque cable set just inside it with the soft hanks on the sail. I am hoping to use Colligo Dux with spliced eyes for the headstay though. 

Why not just have a purpose build Armare/Future Fibers built stay? 

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How tight can they roll those FF stays up for shipping? I am already using 22mm Dux for the cap shrouds and have provisional approval from the USCG. They were skeptical about Dux until some guy on Long Island built a day charter cat and spec'ed Dux and the CG engineers gave it a thumbs down. Turns out that the local CG MCI had final say and if you can convince him and get the local inspector to sign off you are good to go. That boat is right at 5 years and I need to call and see how the latest annual inspection went and if he can get any additional time on those shrouds and stays. The CG like that you don't have nearly as many toggles and stuff and the splices are easily inspected. Look at these Colligo 22 mm capshoud "cheeky blocks".

Image may contain: indoor

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That would be a question for FF, I have coiled 8T furler torsion cables into a coil the size of a hula hoop before. That being said, I believe 5 years is the service life of the cable. It will be longer if the core is SK99 instead though. 

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I didn't feel comfortable with the stretch of the Dux for diamond stays or the seagull striker stay on the forward crossbeam so have decided on rod. Colligo said that Dux could serve on the diamonds but only through the use of conventional turnbuckles and not the new fangled deadeyes that they call lashing blocks. I see that they are doing a Brion Toss line of lashing blocks which are rather anachronistic but would look pretty cool on a traditional wooden boat design.

Image result for brion toss colligo

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On 4/24/2018 at 10:33 AM, ryley said:

our rigger just re-did ours with a block on the furling line with a piece of bungy to keep the line taut. works better than it ever has.

same but we use a big carabiner for quick & easy de & attachment.

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On 5/8/2018 at 12:04 PM, Rasputin22 said:

How tight can they roll those FF stays up for shipping? I am already using 22mm Dux for the cap shrouds and have provisional approval from the USCG. They were skeptical about Dux until some guy on Long Island built a day charter cat and spec'ed Dux and the CG engineers gave it a thumbs down. Turns out that the local CG MCI had final say and if you can convince him and get the local inspector to sign off you are good to go. That boat is right at 5 years and I need to call and see how the latest annual inspection went and if he can get any additional time on those shrouds and stays. The CG like that you don't have nearly as many toggles and stuff and the splices are easily inspected. Look at these Colligo 22 mm capshoud "cheeky blocks".

Image may contain: indoor

The FF aramid cable stays can be coiled up pretty tight - a typical 40 footer backstay cable will get shipped in about a 3 ft diameter coil

 

BTW - the FF aramid cable stays have a life expectancy of 5 years - probably some variation depending on size and application but it is definitely not eternal - and they do go with a spectacular bang - been there done that

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