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Weyalan

S&S 36... thoughts

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Does anyone here have any experience with the S&S 36? The good, the bad, the ugly? Any known problems?

Also, hypothetically, if you had to build a new keel for an S&S 36, would you go with the stock-standard, as designed, or would you "modernise" and if so, with what, designed by whom?

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Do you mean the S&S 34? I am not sure there was a 36 with the S&S designation, but they designed so many boats it is hard to be sure. If it is the 34 they are good boats, like the similar Yankees and Tartans of the same era. 

Others with more experience will comment, but the economics of designing and installing a new keel on a 40 year old boat is questionable. Starting with a more modern design makes more sense.

-jessica-watson7.jpg.9ec15f0be3d87c4e89d832468d6b6b51.jpg

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Maybe he's thinking of the earlier Swan 36

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Just a guess, but the cost of a new keel and installation will be approx the price paid for the used boat. Yes, a modern keel will make the boat slightly faster upwind, probably only a marginal improvement off wind. With so many other money-eating items on the refit list for a 50 year old boat, I don't see much value in replacing the keel. Just make sure keel bolts are up to snuff. 

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I encouraged an acquaintance to buy a SHE 36 to sail with his daughters without thinking through what the huge genoa (the winches are behind the helmsman) would be like short tacking with a lightweight crew. It hasn’t left the shed for several years. 

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The keel thing is because the boat under consideration doesn't have a keel... just a large pile of lead ingots....

 

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2 hours ago, Weyalan said:

It is the 36 foot version of the much loved 34. A few were built in Australia

http://sparkmanstephens.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/design-2432-prestige-36.html

Early 80's IOR

That doesn't look to have much in common with the 34 other than the designers name.

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Friend had a new one, it was full of pox after a few years...

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3 hours ago, Weyalan said:

It is the 36 foot version of the much loved 34. A few were built in Australia

http://sparkmanstephens.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/design-2432-prestige-36.html

Early 80's IOR

It's nothing like the 34. It's probably not a bad design, but after having a keel built and installed, plus who knows what else, you end up with a bunch of money sunk into a 35 year old design that you'll never recover. Financially, it's a bad investment. Emotionally, if it's exactly the boat you want then it's cheaper than having a new one built. Just figure on selling for 10-15% of your investment.

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16 hours ago, Weyalan said:

The keel thing is because the boat under consideration doesn't have a keel... just a large pile of lead ingots....

 

Is it really an Oyster? 

Whats the backstory?

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Somebody's dream project, 90% finished, but broke the camel's back... I don't own it, but am considering it

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Don't let someone else's dream become your nightmare.  Take a step back, hire an Independant expert to look it over and prepare a report of the labor and $ to finish. And then listen to their advice.

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The hull is around a third of the cost of a completed boat...

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25 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

The hull is around a third of the cost of a completed boat...

Totally get that. This is not just a hull. It is somebody's dream (sadface) that has not reached final achievement. as far as I have been able to ascertain (bearing in mind I'm currently on the other side of the planet) is that the boat is "finished" except for the keel... 

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40 minutes ago, RKoch said:

Don't let someone else's dream become your nightmare.  Take a step back, hire an Independant expert to look it over and prepare a report of the labor and $ to finish. And then listen to their advice.

totally get that. Currently have an IOR 40' 1 tonner that we have made into our house / live aboard cruiser. Not like I am a total newbie. If what I am being told is correct, there is nothing that we can't do ourselves (including  casting anew keel).

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8 minutes ago, Weyalan said:

Totally get that. This is not just a hull. It is somebody's dream (sadface) that has not reached final achievement. as far as I have been able to ascertain (bearing in mind I'm currently on the other side of the planet) is that the boat is "finished" except for the keel... 

My friends one was a nice boat, did a couple of S2H races, just surprised us all with early osmosis.

Probably easily prevented with an epoxy coat on a new hull.

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On 5/3/2018 at 7:41 AM, olaf hart said:

Friend had a new one, it was full of pox after a few years...

Every boat built by Prestige Yachts got the pox... I worked there for a few years, total shit show.

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W

There are better projects around, that was not a great design in the first place.

There is at least one mast head rig version around. 

That rig looks better suited to the boat.

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S&S 34'S are old and ugly with tiny cockpits and there would be outrage is a prisoner was sentenced to live in a space that cramped. If you do buy it and want to sail around the world I wouldn't fuck around. It is a big world and they are very slow.

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On 5/3/2018 at 7:41 AM, olaf hart said:

Friend had a new one, it was full of pox after a few years...

There's a really nice S&S one tonner for sale (cheap) in Enzed listed on Gumtree

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8 hours ago, LB 15 said:

S&S 34'S are old and ugly

They are old but S&S never designed an ugly boat.

Go ahead - try & prove me wrong.

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Eye of the beholder and all that but the 34 is IMHO the only ugly boat they designed. High boxy cabin and that horrific sweep up to the tiny transom. For some reason we are all supposed to get misty eyed about The 34's. Sure they won some races and have done the miles, but saying a vessel is very ''seaworthy' is the same as saying a girl has a nice personality. 

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Lead is extremely toxic: you might end up mentally disabled. There is a reason casting keels is outsourced!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning

So find who casts lead, and ask them how much it will cost, once they have a good CAD file. Contact a naval architect to precisely measure the current keel mount (looks like a stub keel), design the keel and the keel-hull connection (NOT FOR AMATEURS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!), and create the proper CAD file, and then confirm it all gets created properly.

Also, be sure to understand the complete set of things needing to be done prior to launch. Get estimates to do that work (including strip, fair, barrier coat, and paint the bottom).

Then double all estimates, and ensure you easily have that cash on hand.

If it still makes sense, then go ahead. S&S boats, including that era, were nice sailing boats.

However, after doing this exercise, you will probably see that the low cost is still nowhere near low enough.

For example, I paid $10 for my Olson 40, and have since spent about double the listing price of other Olson 40s on the market. However, I'll end up with an essentially new boat (all glass and structural issues addressed, all interior and deck paint new, topsides faired and polished, all new systems, refurbished almost new more powerful Yanmar engine, new electrical, new pumps, new head, new everything below and on deck).

When I paid the sales tax ($0.88), I called the California Department of Tax and Fee Administration, and explained the situation (that the value was actually very negative, much less than $10), and they said "Yes, we see those situations with boats all the time -- negative value at purchase, so a nominal price that is often $1. Seems almost the typical situation. Why did you do that?"

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23 hours ago, LB 15 said:

S&S 34'S are old and ugly with tiny cockpits and there would be outrage is a prisoner was sentenced to live in a space that cramped. If you do buy it and want to sail around the world I wouldn't fuck around. It is a big world and they are very slow.

and the S&S 36?

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14 hours ago, Weyalan said:

and the S&S 36?

Just as bad. 

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14 hours ago, Weyalan said:

and the S&S 36?

Just as bad. 

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I do believe so . At least someone  in WA did back around 81/82. I put deposit on hull/deck/keel to transport to east coast then changed my mind. I seem to remember researching Lou A’s boat Challenge 2 an SS45 and reasoning the SS36 was a scaled down version . To many long lunches I think.

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A little back-story. I  have a 40' 1-tonner, with a in-line spreader rig, running backstays, checkstays the whole nine-yards. Its a lot of boat for 2 people (wife & I) to handle, especially offshore in a decent sea. And we ain't getting any younger. The S&S 36  comes with a swept-back rig, and can, potentially, be purchased for very cheap... maybe 1/4 of what I will get for the Vandestadt 40 1-tonner (and I am pretty realistic about how little I'm gonna get for it), and the difference will easily cover the work to get it up to scratch (inc new keel) and really, its about downsizing to a boat that will be easier to sail 2-up, especially as we slide further into old-fart-dom and both the reduction in size and the swept back rig tend to facillitate this (plus ongoing upkeep should be cheaper on a 36 versus a 40). Not totally convinced yet, especially with the poor rep of Prestige built boats (but not sure if its a Prestige or a Swarbrick at this stage), but still giving it some serious consideration. Will be taking a serious look at the boat when we get back to Australia in about 3 months...

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I knew a couple ( Richard and Kellie ?) ex Melbourne who cruised the east coast for years in their S & S 36. Ran into them all over the coast. Fractional rigged, Prestige built it in WA  to a much newer design than the 34 and the 36 design is a shit-load quicker too. Plenty of room for two to live aboard and easy to handle, they loved it. 

There is/was a black one at Westernport Marina that David Tait once owned in the distant past.  Named Penzance iirc?? Taity did ok with that boat too.

Good luck finding someone to cast a lead keel these days. 

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Handsome boat.

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On 5/11/2018 at 1:02 AM, SloopJonB said:

Handsome boat.

That's what I thought too.  But I have a soft spot (to match the one in my head) for S&S designs, and pilot berths make get all weak in the knees.  Last Post described a couple who had one that did the job you are looking for your next boat to do, so....

Why not bail a half dozen coats of Interprotect on the hull and eliminate the pox possibilities?  My only sources for keel casters are Canadien, or were, it's been a decade since we had one made, but it can't be that onerous to get one cast to spec.

My vote is to go for it.  Beats the shit out of a Benhunalina.

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On 5/9/2018 at 5:08 PM, olaf hart said:

The Prestige S&S is nothing like the 34, it is an early 80’s IOR one tonner, more internal space, pretty quick and IIRC well mannered.

Unfortunately, they had a bad dose of the pox.

https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/sparkman-stephens-36/213951

Hey Olaf,

Which ones had the pox? Prestige? Holiday? Both???

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47 minutes ago, Crash said:

Hey Olaf,

Which ones had the pox? Prestige? Holiday? Both???

I think it was Prestige, the boat was bought new from West Australia, it was mid eighties so memory is not flash.

If Swarbrick built some as well, I doubt it was one of theirs.

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What about a Farr 38 ? They have swept back spreaders and no runners making them easy to sail. Quite a few were built in Australia under the name Farr 11.6.

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hi mate sounds like you have boat project plans!

when R U back in the land of OZ?

Beers on arrival?

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On 5/31/2018 at 6:00 AM, snoopy said:

hi mate sounds like you have boat project plans!

when R U back in the land of OZ?

Beers on arrival?

G'day mate. (Slow response due to having been away in Greece)

Back in Oz sometime mid August, most likely. Beers will definitely be on the agenda, oh yes! Boat project plans are a definite maybe (pending viewing of said tub). Rumor is you 'n J have added a somewhat luxurious vessel to your fleet?!

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On 6/4/2018 at 5:19 PM, Weyalan said:

G'day mate. (Slow response due to having been away in Greece)

Back in Oz sometime mid August, most likely. Beers will definitely be on the agenda, oh yes! Boat project plans are a definite maybe (pending viewing of said tub). Rumor is you 'n J have added a somewhat luxurious vessel to your fleet?!

Good one looking forward to the catch-up, so much is happend/happening. Yep we have got ourselves a floating shack Riv 36. In good order so should do well for a few years. Keeping the Mumm to race on (combined clubs and crown), Twilights with Alf and my old man when time permits,  and cruising on the Riv36. Living the dream! 

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