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Shad34

What about keeping sailing classes in the olympic games?

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3 hours ago, hoppy said:

Looks like they use the rib's wake to define the start line.

 

A RIBbit start?

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1 hour ago, McGyver said:

A RIBbit start?

Ribbed for her pleasure...

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FWIW I hope that kiteboarding is added to 2024. 

If they play their cards right, my club could benefit from kiteboarding's inclusion. This is the view we often get when we leave the clubhouse and walk out the pier to the marina. It's Melbourne's most popular kiteboarding location and we would be well placed to offer more than a change room for kiteboarder's who would like to do racing.

maxresdefault.jpg

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The issue is 999% of kite boarders could not give a fuck about racing. Like the vast majority of surfers have no interest in competition. Kiteboard racing is about as interesting as synchronised swimming. Then again soccer is as boring as fuck as well.

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1 hour ago, LB 15 said:

The issue is 999% of kite boarders could not give a fuck about racing. Like the vast majority of surfers have no interest in competition. Kiteboard racing is about as interesting as synchronised swimming. Then again soccer is as boring as fuck as well.

That's not much different to the the 99% of boat owners who also couldn't give a fuck about racing.  

 

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6 hours ago, hoppy said:

FWIW I hope that kiteboarding is added to 2024. 

If they play their cards right, my club could benefit from kiteboarding's inclusion. This is the view we often get when we leave the clubhouse and walk out the pier to the marina. It's Melbourne's most popular kiteboarding location and we would be well placed to offer more than a change room for kiteboarder's who would like to do racing.

maxresdefault.jpg

Bingo.

sailing clubs with locations that can embrace kiteboard sailors, providing them with start lines , fun racing and a bar to gather at afterwards will see a thriving membership......similar to clubs that embraced Laser sailors in the 1970s and 1980s.

The members of declining clubs who think yacht clubs are for yachts , fight to preserve existing classes  and keep out anything new or fast or fun......can look forward to being suitably enriched when the club is sold as a development lot to Sainsburys or Tesco. 

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11 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

Bingo.

sailing clubs with locations that can embrace kiteboard sailors, providing them with start lines , fun racing and a bar to gather at afterwards will see a thriving membership......similar to clubs that embraced Laser sailors in the 1970s and 1980s.

The members of declining clubs who think yacht clubs are for yachts , fight to preserve existing classes  and keep out anything new or fast or fun......can look forward to being suitably enriched when the club is sold as a development lot to Sainsburys or Tesco. 

Maybe the "problem" is that unlike dinghy's and even sailboards, not all yacht clubs have suitable sailing areas for kite boards.

I know there was a plan a while back to introduce a kiteboarding membership but I am not sure what happened to it. Someone on the clubs forum posted the petition and then I replied that we can benefit from the change. I hope the committee members read my post and are thinking about how we can become the centre for kiteboard racing in Melbourne and get a piece of the Australian Sailing Olympic money pie... 

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52 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

Bingo.

sailing clubs with locations that can embrace kiteboard sailors, providing them with start lines , fun racing and a bar to gather at afterwards will see a thriving membership......similar to clubs that embraced Laser sailors in the 1970s and 1980s.

The members of declining clubs who think yacht clubs are for yachts , fight to preserve existing classes  and keep out anything new or fast or fun......can look forward to being suitably enriched when the club is sold as a development lot to Sainsburys or Tesco. 

Don’t you think if all the kiteboards I see zipping back and forth in Alamitos Bay wanted to race they’d already have figured out how to run races?

I just don’t see a bunch of kiteboarders suddenly deciding they need to join ABYC, or especially LBYC. StFYC has a completely unique venue, and very large membership. They are the outlier in the club equation in the US. Ever see a kiteboarder inside Newport Harbor? Right, not gonna happen.

It’s somewhat laughable to think kiteboarders are going to respond en masse to yacht clubs showing up and saying “hi, we’re here to tell you how to have more fun. Now just fork over a couple of grand a year and start to conform to our social rules and norms and we’ll all be good”.

Probably there’s a few clubs where the geography works for kiters to get some benefit from joining a club for the purpose of kitesurfing, but I’m hard pressed to think of many natural fits.

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1 hour ago, sunseeker said:

It’s somewhat laughable to think kiteboarders are going to respond en masse to yacht clubs showing up and saying “hi, we’re here to tell you how to have more fun. Now just fork over a couple of grand a year and start to conform to our social rules and norms and we’ll all be good”.

Certainly not on mass, but sometimes any small number of extra members can help.

I've never kiteboarded, but it looks like it would be fun to do the occasional club race up and down the beach.

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1 hour ago, sunseeker said:

Don’t you think if all the kiteboards I see zipping back and forth in Alamitos Bay wanted to race they’d already have figured out how to run races?

I just don’t see a bunch of kiteboarders suddenly deciding they need to join ABYC, or especially LBYC. StFYC has a completely unique venue, and very large membership. They are the outlier in the club equation in the US. Ever see a kiteboarder inside Newport Harbor? Right, not gonna happen.

It’s somewhat laughable to think kiteboarders are going to respond en masse to yacht clubs showing up and saying “hi, we’re here to tell you how to have more fun. Now just fork over a couple of grand a year and start to conform to our social rules and norms and we’ll all be good”.

Probably there’s a few clubs where the geography works for kiters to get some benefit from joining a club for the purpose of kitesurfing, but I’m hard pressed to think of many natural fits.

Im totally in awe of ABYC. Its a great club and certainly encourages fun sailing and racing. I will be there again in 2019!

I also know ABYC members who sail kiteboards and a bunch more of kiteboard sailors who crew on ABYC owners boats. Kiteboarding is doing good things for the SoCal sailing scene. Im jealous.

But here is what is great about Kiteboard sailors, its getting people out sailing without having to come up with the scratch for an expensive yacht club. I dont think we want our message to be "Its not sailing and it should not be an Olympic sailing sport if you dont have to pay $2000 a year to join a sailing club. We do not want poor people moving into our neighborhood or our exclusive sport"

I know Sunseeker does not think that......but hey everyone who signs that petition.....that is how it comes across to the outside world.

The wind is free. The easier we can make it for people to experience the thrill of harnessing the wind to move over water, the more excited I can be for the future of our sport.

The Olympics is not about representing our yacht clubs.....its about representing the joy of the sport of sailing in ALL its facets.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, hoppy said:

Certainly not en mass, but sometimes any small number of extra members can help.

I've never kiteboarded, but it looks like it would be fun to do the occasional club race up and down the beach.

Those comments apply equally to Sea-doos.

Perhaps we should designate them a form of sailing, and work hard to attract their owners/users. No doubt they would fit right in with traditional sailing culture.

2014-sea-doo-spark-2up_action7.jpg

2017-kawasaki-sx-r-jet-ski-review-1.jpg

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16 hours ago, hoppy said:

That's not much different to the the 99% of boat owners who also couldn't give a fuck about racing.  

 

Really? Apart from Meli how many dinghy sailors just cruise?

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1 hour ago, LB 15 said:

Really? Apart from Meli how many dinghy sailors just cruise?

Not talking dinghys.

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9 hours ago, Svanen said:

Those comments apply equally to Sea-doos.

 

We are a sailing club. 

9 hours ago, Svanen said:

Perhaps we should designate them a form of sailing, and work hard to attract their owners/users. No doubt they would fit right in with traditional sailing culture.

What's your "traditional sailing culture"?

My club might be a "Royal" but unlike the next club along the coast, we don't measure your worth to the club by your net worth. I have to laugh about the nearby posh club because they built a gym and sold exclusive gym memberships and raked in the money. However when the slipway needed expensive repairs the gym members voted against spending the money, so the slipway is no more LOL idiots...

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11 minutes ago, hoppy said:

What's your "traditional sailing culture"?

Operation of sailboats (with hulls, masts, sails, etc. ...).

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13 hours ago, hoppy said:

Maybe the "problem" is that unlike dinghy's and even sailboards, not all yacht clubs have suitable sailing areas for kite boards.

I know there was a plan a while back to introduce a kiteboarding membership but I am not sure what happened to it. Someone on the clubs forum posted the petition and then I replied that we can benefit from the change. I hope the committee members read my post and are thinking about how we can become the centre for kiteboard racing in Melbourne and get a piece of the Australian Sailing Olympic money pie... 

Decades ago your club did the same thing when Windsurfing first boomed. They took in hordes of those new sailors at a special rate of membership, changed the character of the club completely with the influx of younger members, alienated a bunch of the older stalwarts, ran a few sailboard events and pretty soon it all disappeared. Flash in the pan.

Once bitten...

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46 minutes ago, hoppy said:

Not talking dinghys.

But we are discussing Olympic sailing...I can't see IRC/PHS/4knSB racing being selected as a class for Tokyo. 

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7 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

But we are discussing Olympic sailing...I can't see IRC/PHS/4knSB racing being selected as a class for Tokyo. 

why not, 12m used to be an olympic class ;)

Fair point..

However there does not seem to be much kiteboard racing organised. I don't know if it's due to the lack of interest or if there has not been any real attempt to test the waters.. In this regard, windsurfing seems not much different and yet it's an olympic sport. I'm not sure who windsurfs these days, before I left Aus in 98 the waters where the kiteboarders now play was all windsurfing, including me. Now you hardly ever see one.

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44 minutes ago, Svanen said:

Operation of sailboats (with hulls, masts, sails, etc. ...).

A kiteboard has a hull and a sail..

 

That just sounds like a stuffy yacht club mentality.

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39 minutes ago, Last Post said:

Decades ago your club did the same thing when Windsurfing first boomed. They took in hordes of those new sailors at a special rate of membership, changed the character of the club completely with the influx of younger members, alienated a bunch of the older stalwarts, ran a few sailboard events and pretty soon it all disappeared. Flash in the pan.

Once bitten...

Hmmm 

Might have been down to poor management of the process. From what I heard, the club did get pretty broke at one point but it seems to be much better managed these days.

Clubs will die if you don't bring in younger members and the character will change as society changes. You just need to manage the change properly.

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21 minutes ago, hoppy said:

why not, 12m used to be an olympic class ;)

Fair point..

However there does not seem to be much kiteboard racing organised. I don't know if it's due to the lack of interest or if there has not been any real attempt to test the waters.. In this regard, windsurfing seems not much different and yet it's an olympic sport. I'm not sure who windsurfs these days, before I left Aus in 98 the waters where the kiteboarders now play was all windsurfing, including me. Now you hardly ever see one.

12 SqM Sharpies, not the 12Metres.

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14 minutes ago, Last Post said:

12 SqM Sharpies, not the 12Metres.

Not according to Wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_sailing_classes#Pre-WWII_games_(1900–1936)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_Metre

Quote

The first 12 Metres were built in 1907.[1] The 12 Metre class was used in the Olympic Games of 1908, 1912 and 1920 but few boats participated in these events. The 12 Metre class boats are best known as the boat design used in the America's Cup from 1958 to 1987.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailing_at_the_1908_Summer_Olympics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailing_at_the_1912_Summer_Olympics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailing_at_the_1920_Summer_Olympics

 

The 12m class was not exactly popular

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailing_at_the_1908_Summer_Olympics_–_12_Metre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailing_at_the_1912_Summer_Olympics_–_12_Metre

and in 1900 there was a 20+ton class

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailing_at_the_1900_Summer_Olympics_–_20%2B_ton

Colombine_from_The_Yachtsman,_No_489_Aug

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14 minutes ago, Last Post said:

12 SqM Sharpies, not the 12Metres.

No, 12 Metres. In 1908, 1912, and 1920 ( In the 1907 rule, and 1919 rule)  Olympics.  Seriously

35 minutes ago, hoppy said:

A kiteboard has a hull and a sail..

 

That just sounds like a stuffy yacht club mentality.

I thought it had a kite and a board? :huh:

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1 hour ago, hoppy said:

why not, 12m used to be an olympic class ;)

Fair point..

However there does not seem to be much kiteboard racing organised. I don't know if it's due to the lack of interest or if there has not been any real attempt to test the waters.. In this regard, windsurfing seems not much different and yet it's an olympic sport. I'm not sure who windsurfs these days, before I left Aus in 98 the waters where the kiteboarders now play was all windsurfing, including me. Now you hardly ever see one.

The only thing that will save Olympic yachting is bringing back Biffo Ben. Although the E6s were pretty good to watch.

E-Sports are now up for inclusion so perhaps yachting will be all virtual. Should suit Randumb I guess. 

ben-ainslie-protest-007.jpg?w=1200&h=630 a2_2080989b.jpg

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From the SA front page. This is probably more what Olympic kiteboarding would look like.

 

 

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An interesting video, and quite educational about kiteboarding racing (at least for me).

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Fuck yacht clubs, US sailings greatest failing is relying on clubs whose primary purpose is to please their membership to find olympic talent rather than set up a framework similar to every other sport. How many times have you heard "we don't want new members / we are at capacity" " I don't want all these damn kids around" "running sailing programs open to the public will ruin the club" "X class will never work here its not in our history". A clubs responsibility is to their members and  the old fucks who decide on the asinine bureaucracy it's plainly obvious the vast majority don't use to implement any type of olympic style sailing. Even getting some clubs to run a modern style windward/leeward is a fucking challenge. 

Contrast this with college sailing whose organizational bodies are largely separate from yacht clubs and it becomes apparent that it is possible to set up a high intensity, high participation training framework for athletes in their prime, it just so happens to be focused on finding and producing the best FJ roll tackers instead of the best 49er/470/etc sailors. Theres something like 5000 college sailors, can we really not find a way to get 5-10% of them into a similar framework to college sailing but in olympic classes so they don't have to go to europe.

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4 hours ago, Lake Shark said:

How many times have you heard "we don't want new members / we are at capacity" " I don't want all these damn kids around" "running sailing programs open to the public will ruin the club" "X class will never work here its not in our history".

Never. But I don't live in the USA.

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On 5/12/2018 at 12:07 AM, Lake Shark said:

college sailing ... happens to be focused on finding and producing the best FJ and Club 420 roll tackers instead of the best 49er/470/etc sailors.

Fixed?

On 5/12/2018 at 4:42 AM, dogwatch said:

Never. But I don't live in the USA.

+1.

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On 5/12/2018 at 12:07 AM, Lake Shark said:

clubs' ... primary purpose is to please their membership ... clubs' responsibility is to their members

Obviously, a club's primary purpose is to serve its members and accommodate their tastes, desires and preferences; if it doesn't execute on this, the members will soon lose interest in paying their dues, and the club will fold.

The above isn't to say that a club shouldn't bother trying to serve its community: leaving aside the moral argument, it's in the club's best interests to have good support from the local public (and their elected representatives). But I'm not sure that promoting development of Olympic sailing athletes obviously translates into the latter. 

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On 5/3/2018 at 5:56 PM, Shad34 said:

I'd say kitesurfing is a not sailing. It is most probably an awesome sport, but still very different from our yacht club experience.

 

I'd say kite foiling is most definitely sailing.  But I want to qualify that by saying twin tip riding (busting tricks,/ big air) or kitesurfing shredding waves or border cross racing and long distance ocean kiting / long distance racing are absolutely not sailing. 

Im not bassing this on observation by watching 3-minute clips on youtube but actual on the water experience of all the kitesurfing disciplines listed above over 14 years cross-referenced against my sailing experience of 30+ years. I'm currently doing my RYA day skipper and learning cool new skills like springing off and navigation, this weekend I will be planning and skipper my first night passage in a 40 something foot yacht with a big lump of lead beneath me and I'm sure that can be considered "sailing". I have also skippered and crewed 49ers and on occasion won races at grade 1 Olympic regattas beating the likes of Outteridge, Burling, and Draper which I would consider my sailing highlights, and call that "sailing".    If being on the water in a 40 foot lead mine drinking tea and standing on the side of a skiff in 25kts can be considered the same sport then standing on a foil flying a kite can be as well. I say this because standing on a foil flying a kite feels like sailing, I have only been on a foil board 6 times and can only stick a tack 25% of the time and I'm currently too scared to try gybing.   Ripping upwind at 19kts at angles similar to a skiff my thought processes are nearly identical to those if I were sailing a yacht or skiff, power, balance, trim, wind direction, wind pressure, wind angle. Round a mark then spin the thing downwind and I feel just like a 16-year-old again for the first time out in a 49er trying to stay in control and having the thrill of my life fully aware that things are happening too fast for my brain to process. In time it will fall into place and ill be focusing on the race course, opposition position and which gust I should try and catch up to.  I will be sailing because the thought processes and the feel will be exactly the same.  If flying around a race course on giant foils for an entire race without splashing down powered by huge solid wings sat on a bike peddling can fall under the umbrella term "sailing"  then why cant standing on a foil powered by a kite.

Kite foiling is one small part of the future of the sport, the sport is expanding and changing always has done always will do.   give it a go, you might like it.

 

kite chick.jpg

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18 minutes ago, SubPar said:

I'd say kite foiling is most definitely sailing.  But I want to qualify that by saying twin tip riding (busting tricks,/ big air) or kitesurfing shredding waves or border cross racing and long distance ocean kiting / long distance racing are absolutely not sailing

Im not bassing this on observation by watching 3-minute clips on youtube but actual on the water experience of all the kitesurfing disciplines listed above over 14 years cross-referenced against my sailing experience of 30+ years. I'm currently doing my RYA day skipper and learning cool new skills like springing off and navigation, this weekend I will be planning and skipper my first night passage in a 40 something foot yacht with a big lump of lead beneath me and I'm sure that can be considered "sailing". I have also skippered and crewed 49ers and on occasion won races at grade 1 Olympic regattas beating the likes of Outteridge, Burling, and Draper which I would consider my sailing highlights, and call that "sailing".    If being on the water in a 40 foot lead mine drinking tea and standing on the side of a skiff in 25kts can be considered the same sport then standing on a foil flying a kite can be as well. I say this because standing on a foil flying a kite feels like sailing, I have only been on a foil board 6 times and can only stick a tack 25% of the time and I'm currently too scared to try gybing.   Ripping upwind at 19kts at angles similar to a skiff my thought processes are nearly identical to those if I were sailing a yacht or skiff, power, balance, trim, wind direction, wind pressure, wind angle. Round a mark then spin the thing downwind and I feel just like a 16-year-old again for the first time out in a 49er trying to stay in control and having the thrill of my life fully aware that things are happening too fast for my brain to process. In time it will fall into place and ill be focusing on the race course, opposition position and which gust I should try and catch up to.  I will be sailing because the thought processes and the feel will be exactly the same.  If flying around a race course on giant foils for an entire race without splashing down powered by huge solid wings sat on a bike peddling can fall under the umbrella term "sailing"  then why cant standing on a foil powered by a kite.

Kite foiling is one small part of the future of the sport, the sport is expanding and changing always has done always will do.   give it a go, you might like it.

 

kite chick.jpg

This makes absolutely no sense.

 

As to whether kiting is sailing - hmmmmm - I am definitely split on that one

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Who's the cry baby who wrote the front page article?

Quote

younger, thinner, sexier

Higher, Faster, Stronger? Not any more, try Younger, thinner and smaller instead.

richardbransonvanityfair-1.jpg

A sport’s governing body is supposed to represent and be representative of the participants of that sport are they not? The new list of classes for the 2024 Olympics has just been announced and it reads like a Ray Bradbury novel.

In Fahrenheit 451 books are banned and with World Sailing’s new class list for the Olympics bigger, heavier sailors appear to suffer the same fate.

Men’s One Person Dinghy – Laser   Women’s One Person Dinghy – Laser Radial     Women’s Skiff – 49er FX      Men’s Skiff – 49er      Mixed 2 person Multiull – Nacra 17

No problems so far but then…..

Men’s Windsurfer   Women’s Windsurfer    New Event – Mixed One Person Dinghy    New Event – Mixed Two Person Dinghy     New Event – Mixed Kite

No obvious class for the sailors over 85kg so a message to all those heavier sailors with Olympic aspirations, choose a different sport or forget the Olympics altogether OR go on a crash diet although I suppose though that it does let the lighter Asian nations in more.

A big surprise for me is the absence of the Finn, a heavyweight boat which needs a strong, powerful, technical sailor to excel in – sorry guys no Olympics for you after Tokyo.

Also a surprise, no – more than a surprise a huge disappointment – is the keelboat ‘marathon equivalent’ idea has been scrapped.

Not only does this mean ALL Olympic sailing events are the maritime equivalent of no more than a few laps of an athletics track but one of the largest – if not THE largest group of sailors globally is still not represented at the Olympics, the bigger boat sailors.

And kitesurfing? I am so old fashioned that I am still not 100% behind Air Rowing being in the ISAF (told you I was old fashioned) remit. They even need a special appendix to be able to use the Racing Rules of Sailing but at least they float. I always thought sailing was done in or on boats, boats float, boards NO NOT!

And while we are at it, what is this about World Sailing getting into the on-line game business.  e-Sailing Championships? Don’t they think their time might be better spent looking at arresting the decline in sailing participation in the developed sailing world?

Currently it has the appearance of a corporation crawling to it’s one major client (IOC) while exploring and attempting to take over and monopolise fringe and minority markets (kitesurfing and sailing related on line gaming) while paying little attention to the mass market that is their true power base (sailors like us). I know it is not a perfect example but anyone remember seeing new Hummers on the street?

I am sure the average sailor would not mind paying a little extra (and it would only need to be a little extra because there are a lot of us) to compete in regattas at, say, beyond club level if that levy was fed through our MNA to fund World Sailing. Of course that would mean the developed sailing nations with more sailors would pay more but they do already (significantly more) in any case.

Is it any wonder that many sailors feel disenfranchised? And not just the lowly club sailor either as evidenced by the open letter and recent on line petition started by a significant and knowledgeable group of concerned Olympians.

Will they listen? On past evidence probably not but we live in hope.

 

 

 So what if fat fucks over 85kg can't sail in the Olympics??? Does the author want weight classes for other sports too ?

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19 minutes ago, Christian said:

This makes absolutely no sense.

long distance racing or big voyages on kite just don't feel anything like sailing, more a test of endurance (think holding a squat for a long time) a big part of it is because the equipment used, typically directional boards or twin tips just can't go upwind at any sensible rate, an incredible effort is needed to go upwind and somebody jogging on the beach can typically beat you.  I have done point to point drag races on a kite and 150km + day long voyages going downwind on a kite and at no point did this feel like any kind of sailing it was kitesurfing.  But chuck a formula race board or a foil on your feet, then you can go upwind like a boat and the ocean is opened up to you and it feels like sailing and you think just like you are sailing.   It's a hard concept to communicate to somebody as it is based undertaking many aspects of these water sports and comparing them together. After doing so my previous post is my conclusion.   

If its got a hull and means of being propelled by the wind but can only really go across the wind or down wind is it still sailing? is Rimas sailing?

not sailing.jpg

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Looks like the Finn will stay in the games after all and also the 470. A lot of confusion around the mixed events. Apparently the mixed one person dinghy is sailed in two different classes on different courses. They just can't add more events to the games, so they will combine the points of the two classes to make it one event. So obviously you need to have sailors representing the same nations in both classes to make it work, so this is not necessary a good event for small sailing nations 

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2 hours ago, jonas a said:

Apparently the mixed one person dinghy is sailed in two different classes on different courses.

If that is the case, it's a shame.  They could have let the Finn have a dignified end at Tokyo, now it's going to be remembered for its final installment in Paris where nobody knows whats going on, not even the commentators as aggregated points from 2 race course are being summed up to work out who the hell is winning. What a fuck up. Well, maybe it was the only way to end the Finn old boys stronghold, divide then conquer.  The kite foil class won't have a chance to get started if the same confusion is thrown that way too.              sources spoke to by Sail-World at the World Sailing meeting, were adamant that the Finn had been retained as the Mixed One Person Dinghy, and the 470 had been retained as the Mixed Two Person Dinghy on the basis that existing equipment will be retained as much as possible.       

.......Good luck finding girls big enough to sail a fin. 

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On 5/10/2018 at 5:42 PM, Svanen said:

Those comments apply equally to Sea-doos.

Perhaps we should designate them a form of sailing, and work hard to attract their owners/users. No doubt they would fit right in with traditional sailing culture.

2014-sea-doo-spark-2up_action7.jpg

2017-kawasaki-sx-r-jet-ski-review-1.jpg

We can make it a duathlon...

main-qimg-4c6f126dc5deae8ec1515d79007810

On 5/12/2018 at 4:33 AM, Svanen said:

An interesting video, and quite educational about kiteboarding racing (at least for me).

Indeed... That definitely looks a lot more like sailing than what I had in mind. Scary shit though, I'm not sure how they don't end up tangled in the ultimate clusterfuck of dyneema lines.

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49 minutes ago, SubPar said:

If that is the case, it's a shame.  They could have let the Finn have a dignified end at Tokyo, now it's going to be remembered for its final installment in Paris where nobody knows whats going on, not even the commentators as aggregated points from 2 race course are being summed up to work out who the hell is winning. What a fuck up. Well, maybe it was the only way to end the Finn old boys stronghold, divide then conquer.  The kite foil class won't have a chance to get started if the same confusion is thrown that way too.              sources spoke to by Sail-World at the World Sailing meeting, were adamant that the Finn had been retained as the Mixed One Person Dinghy, and the 470 had been retained as the Mixed Two Person Dinghy on the basis that existing equipment will be retained as much as possible.       

.......Good luck finding girls big enough to sail a fin. 

  I think you have missed the point (deliberately, perhaps, in which case it is I who am the fool for taking the bait) The point of this construct ("Mixed one-person dinghy") is to allow sailors with different physiques to compete. Sailing is only allowed ten "events" and must achieve gender equality. The Laser (suitable for "normal" sized men) and Radial (suitable for "large" women) are retained, so an event that enables "large" men (currently competing in the Finn) and "normal" women (currently not competing) ticks both those boxes.

 The proposal elegantly meets the criteria, allowing the Finn to continue (albeit probably racing in a different format) and introducing a new class for more typically sized women.

 Given the constraints, it's a surprisingly good solution, in my view. There are still some big questions and plenty of opportunities for any number of interested parties to ensure we end up with a complete farce but it's not yet the worst outcome by a huge margin!!!

 See earlier thread regarding possible choices for "lightweight-female" dinghy (though note that the current proposal suggests 70Kg as the target weight, which is nonsensical and will presumably be fudged, assuming the whole thing isn't revisited in November).

Cheers,

              W.

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5 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

 

 See earlier thread regarding possible choices for "lightweight-female" dinghy (though note that the current proposal suggests 70Kg as the target weight, which is nonsensical and will presumably be fudged, assuming the whole thing isn't revisited in November).

 

Yes, that seemed like an odd proposal to me also, Isn't the target weight for Laser Radial  already in that ball park? 

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The mixed one person dinghy is still not thought through. How do you sail the trials? is it individual sailing until both sailors are chosen for the Olympics, or do you have to be "a team" all the way.   

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1 minute ago, jonas a said:

Yes, that seemed like an odd proposal to me also, Isn't the target weight for Laser Radial  already in that ball park? 

Yes... the "ideal" weight & height for the Radial are significantly bigger than the "average woman" even in the developed world. For much of the world they would be giants!

Cheers,

             W.

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On 5/11/2018 at 12:11 PM, hoppy said:

However there does not seem to be much kiteboard racing organised. I don't know if it's due to the lack of interest or if there has not been any real attempt to test the waters.. 

Cause there isnt much point.

Most folk in an area know who the quick guys are. And who gets the best air etc.

Unless you want to wank around with handicap, folks all know that a tp52 is going to beat a Farr 40. Ditto kiting, the heavy dude with the bigger kite is likely to win a drag race.

Or you can go one design, and 'win' even without being the fastest person on the water. Special Olympics time. Windsurfing in the 90s we would occasionally go out on short boards and blast past the guys racing one design. Congratulations on your medal, but I got clocked at 42 knots today. What did you win again?

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8 hours ago, SubPar said:

long distance racing or big voyages on kite just don't feel anything like sailing, more a test of endurance (think holding a squat for a long time) a big part of it is because the equipment used, typically directional boards or twin tips just can't go upwind at any sensible rate, an incredible effort is needed to go upwind and somebody jogging on the beach can typically beat you.  I have done point to point drag races on a kite and 150km + day long voyages going downwind on a kite and at no point did this feel like any kind of sailing it was kitesurfing.  But chuck a formula race board or a foil on your feet, then you can go upwind like a boat and the ocean is opened up to you and it feels like sailing and you think just like you are sailing.   It's a hard concept to communicate to somebody as it is based undertaking many aspects of these water sports and comparing them together. After doing so my previous post is my conclusion.   

If its got a hull and means of being propelled by the wind but can only really go across the wind or down wind is it still sailing? is Rimas sailing?

not sailing.jpg

Not unlike a Finn is 25 knots - believe me most peeps are dead by the end of the day on those days

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So looking at the equipment committee's recommendations by category:

Single Handed Dinghy/Skiff : 3 events

Double Handed Dinghy/Skiff : 3 events

Boards: 3 events

Multihull : 1 event

Keelboats : 0 events

 

The process is still broken at WS because this is clearly the result of political maneuvering rather than strong sport leadership standing above the vested interests of the class organizations and saying "This what we have to do to represent the sport of sailing"

Instead we have wheeler dealing and compromise.

There is no event in the keel boat category because....... well because there isnt a strong keel boat class organization with political clout in WS.

The Mixed Single person dinghy sounds like a daft concept drawn up to appease the Finn and gender equality.

The Mixed Double Dinghy is a compromise to appease the 470.  It is not a totally daft idea. A mixed double dinghy could enable a heavier guy to race with a lighter woman. The problem with choosing the 470 for this task is that (1) The combined weight is a bit on the light side. (2) The best combination will likely be light women helm and heavier male crew.

 

 

 

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Here is how I think things could pan out over time if classes were excluded from participating in the choice of categories

 

Single Dinghy/skiff : 2 events. Maybe 3 (but it wont be the mixed single)

Double Dinghy/Skiff : 3 events

Boards : 2 events

Multihull : 2 events (maybe 1)

Keelboats : 1 event

 

At Risk : 

Mixed Single Dinghy : Doomed concept  Maybe it is included in Paris, but it will be a single Olympic event at most

Windsurfers: After one cycle of Kites in Paris, the writing will be on the wall. With Kite sailing knocking the cover off the ball in terms of excitement and viewers and windsurfing delivering another rowing fest....windsurfers will be at severe risk.....unless they dump the RSX.  Kite sailing grows to 2 events.

Incoming:   A mixed keelboat event.

 

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Up to the sixties it was all keelboats. They dropped them for several reasons and those reasons still apply.

 What makes you think they'll make a comeback? 

Cheers,

              W.

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27 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

The process is still broken at WS because this is clearly the result of political maneuvering rather than strong sport leadership standing above the vested interests of the class organizations and saying "This what we have to do to represent the sport of sailing"

Have you read the proposals and the account of the meeting on the WS website? They are boring but also enlightening. The objective is not to "represent the sport of sailing" in the sense of having a set of set of classes and events representative of the sport. The objective is to meet the IOC's desiderata (gender equity and access from many nations) and in particular to appeal to the great god Television.

 

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5 hours ago, Se7en said:

Or you can go one design, and 'win' even without being the fastest person on the water. Special Olympics time.

seriously-wtf.jpg

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2 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Have you read the proposals and the account of the meeting on the WS website? They are boring but also enlightening. The objective is not to "represent the sport of sailing" in the sense of having a set of set of classes and events representative of the sport. The objective is to meet the IOC's desiderata (gender equity and access from many nations) and in particular to appeal to the great god Television.

 

I have read it.

Sailing can do both. Represent the sport (both men and women) AND appeal to the spectator.

The structure of the WS process does neither.

Its not a total disaster (apart from the mixed single dinghy, which makes us a laughing stock) but the process is fundamentally flawed.

 

 

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2 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

Up to the sixties it was all keelboats. They dropped them for several reasons and those reasons still apply.

 What makes you think they'll make a comeback? 

Cheers,

              W.

They dropped keelboat participation in 2016.....and I am very familiar with the reasons why.  The reasons are not entirely logical.

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3 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

 

Windsurfers: After one cycle of Kites in Paris, the writing will be on the wall. With Kite sailing knocking the cover off the ball in terms of excitement and viewers and windsurfing delivering another rowing fest....windsurfers will be at severe risk.....unless they dump the RSX.  Kite sailing grows to 2 events.

 

 

This. Kite foiling is advanced enough at this point to create a class that will deliver exciting racing that is also great to watch. Windsurf OTOH foiling is still in it's infancy - the fastest set ups still get smoked by a lit slalom board - and the bleeding edge will probably look completely different by the time the Olympics take place - but the current RSX is also a dog, so yeah - it's probably on it's last gasp as an olympic sport even if they DO dump the RSX.

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Im not saying Im a big advocate of keelboats for Olympic sailing. The kites are a must have. The multi hulls are a must have. Obviously dinghy/skiffs are a must have.

However I am realistic enough to know that handing out Olympic medals for sailing without including a keel boat is a bit like Olympic basket ball when they didnt allow the NBA players.

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5 hours ago, Svanen said:

seriously-wtf.jpg

One design, by it's very nature, is always slower than whatever the current fastest boat / kite / board is. You go one design in order to limit the capability of the equipment, so that it is the ability of the participants which is being measured.

In keel boat racing, folks are happy to plod around racing etchells, rather than race a modern sports boat. So you can win at etchells while other boats are flying past you down wind.

Sports like windsurfing and kiting tend to have folks who would prefer to go as fast as they can, rather than go slower in order to race. Which is why formal racing has never been a big part of board sports. Handicap racing - either by time penalties or by enforcing a standard boat, just doesn't appeal much to people who like going fast. It just feels like you are handicapped.

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You are certainly not alone in your preference, as the fascination with "line honours" at the Hobart and other major offshore races demonstrates.

We all have our different sailing interests, which is fine; but to denigrate OD racing as "plodding around ... Special Olympics time" is gratuitously obnoxious.

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4 hours ago, Se7en said:

 

In keel boat racing, folks are happy to plod around racing etchells, rather than race a modern sports boat. So you can win at etchells while other boats are flying past you down wind.

Except there are plenty of one design modern sport boats to race in. So no reason to plod around in Etchells.....unless you like plodding around ;)

 

 

 

And there is nothing wrong with plodding around and enjoying it.

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By these observations the following sailing classes are under represented by WS and the IOC selections.

On 5/7/2018 at 9:45 AM, Mambo Kings said:

Thanks DW, we agree......

On 5/7/2018 at 9:35 AM, dogwatch said:

It uses the wind and an aerofoil to propel a person and their equipment over the surface of the water. That sure sounds like sailing to me.

 

Parapendio_in_gruppo_Portonovo_(AN)_2014

04-L.jpg

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6 hours ago, Svanen said:

to denigrate OD racing as "plodding around ... Special Olympics time" is gratuitously obnoxious.

Oh obnoxious, certainly. But I didnt think my windsurfing mates were gratuitous when they said it to me when I went sailing keel boats.

I was just giving a perspective on why most windsurfers or kiteboarders dont race.

 

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The fun thing is:

In the F18 class the sailors believe, that lighter teams have a benefit. They say that they are faster and deeper downwind. Thats why smaller teams has to carry extra weight under the front beam. (Which makes it hard for a 140kg team to get the boat out of the water)

In the N17 class the teams believe that bigger and heavier is better. I think they say that the ideal crew weight is around 145 and 150kg. Close to the F18. 

Beside the weight discussion I think hight is almost irrelevant in a catamaran. You already have a very large lever from the daggerboard to the upper hull. 

I think most sailors overestimate the ideal crew weight especially in the trapezing classes. 

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10 hours ago, Se7en said:

Sports like windsurfing and kiting tend to have folks who would prefer to go as fast as they can, rather than go slower in order to race. Which is why formal racing has never been a big part of board sports. 

Racing was most certainly a significant part of windsurfing in the 1980s. For example hundreds of boards used to race around Hayling Island. It faded when people stopped sailing boards that like to go upwind but we still have a local racing scene.

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1 hour ago, Se7en said:

Oh obnoxious, certainly. But I didnt think my windsurfing mates were gratuitous when they said it to me when I went sailing keel boats.

I was just giving a perspective on why most windsurfers or kiteboarders dont race.

 

Most sailors don’t race either.

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On 5/3/2018 at 11:09 AM, LB 15 said:

You don't need a yacht club to sail either - only to make the Olympic Games.

I am pretty sure that most of the British competitors that are on the RYA squad put their club down as RYA.  

I am also pretty sure they wouldn't waste any money being a member of a club until they were no longer RYA.

On another point, I pay my RYA membership willingly each year.  The RYA stands up for grassroots and leisure sailing in the UK.  It disappoints me that part of my cash will go into the pockets of World Sailing.  A waste IMHO.

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At the 20,000 foot view, start with the money. 65% of World Sailing's income comes from the IOC.  I got news for ya, World Sailing doesn't give a shit about you.

Then 1/4 of US Sailing's budget comes from Olympics.  But it is more than that, the certificate of Race Officers and Judges increases the pool of candidates to serve the Olympics.  Their message is constantly about the Olympics.  I have trouble seeing what US Sailing does for the common weekend/beercan racer anymore.

Next, the Racing Rules of Sailing are not designed for you.  They are solely designed for the Olympics.  There are about 20 rules that do not need to be in there for weekend/beercan racing.  These rules are offensive to the average sailor, and unneeded for fair competition.  But you must comply with them because US Sailing / World Sailing says so.

It is interesting to read in this thread how sailing is funded differently around the world. Different business models of funding.  If the business changed, countries would have to change their business models to one that changes the source of their funding.

Drop sailing from the Olympics and World Sailing and US Sailing would then have to focus all of their energies on you.  I am sure sailing would be better off for it.

 

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I can guarantee that under no circumstances would US Sailing be focusing its energies on me or many others on this thread. We don't all live in the USA.

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4 hours ago, dogwatch said:

I can guarantee that under no circumstances would US Sailing be focusing its energies on me or many others on this thread. We don't all live in the USA.

What has the fact that you dont live in the USA got to do with it?

Are you suggesting that we somehow stop telling other parts of the world what to do and how to do it?  Cummon, be realistic.  

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5 hours ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

Next, the Racing Rules of Sailing are not designed for you.  They are solely designed for the Olympics.  There are about 20 rules that do not need to be in there for weekend/beercan racing.  These rules are offensive to the average sailor, and unneeded for fair competition.  But you must comply with them because US Sailing / World Sailing says so.

 

Okay. I'll bite .

Glenn is a respected contributor who I always enjoy reading...so to discuss...in amicable way

Which are the rules solely designed for the Olympics?  

There are 55 rules in Parts 1, 2 and 3 of the rules book which provide structure for how we race sailboats .  Which are the 20 rules that dont need to be there and are so offensive?

I will admit that Rules 5, 6 and 7  (Anti-doping, Anti betting and corruption and Disciplinary issues) are not going to come up every week at the at Darien Boat Club's Wednesday evening series. But all sports have anti doping and anti betting rules...and those rules should apply to sailing and go somewhere.

What are the other 17......?    

The core of our Racing Rules of Sailing are based on the experience and requirements of amateurs racing among ourselves. There are additional rules which come into play for certain high level events (and some events, eg AC Cup have their own additional set of rules) but the core Part 2 and 3 of our rules do a pretty good job.

Whenever I hear of weekend warriors who proudly announce that they race without the RRS, I dont have to hold my breath very long before I hear of acrimony  that results. Just my experience. Watch what happens to the quality of racing in a fleet which decides not to have protests. 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

Okay. I'll bite .

Glenn is a respected contributor who I always enjoy reading...so to discuss...in amicable way

Which are the rules solely designed for the Olympics?  

There are 55 rules in Parts 1, 2 and 3 of the rules book which provide structure for how we race sailboats .  Which are the 20 rules that dont need to be there and are so offensive?

I will admit that Rules 5, 6 and 7  (Anti-doping, Anti betting and corruption and Disciplinary issues) are not going to come up every week at the at Darien Boat Club's Wednesday evening series. But all sports have anti doping and anti betting rules...and those rules should apply to sailing and go somewhere.

What are the other 17......?    

The core of our Racing Rules of Sailing are based on the experience and requirements of amateurs racing among ourselves. There are additional rules which come into play for certain high level events (and some events, eg AC Cup have their own additional set of rules) but the core Part 2 and 3 of our rules do a pretty good job.

Whenever I hear of weekend warriors who proudly announce that they race without the RRS, I dont have to hold my breath very long before I hear of acrimony  that results. Just my experience. Watch what happens to the quality of racing in a fleet which decides not to have protests. 

 

 

You are on the right track with the ones you mentioned so far.

Contact between boats is allowed with a simple spin of the boat. Probably a broken finger if between two sailing dinghies, but absolutely stupid and incomprehensible to have in the rules for two 70-footers, or any offshore keelboat, and many inshore keelboats as well.

How about the new RRS69? Talk about unnecessary and brought about because of professional sailors, having nothing to do with amateur sailing.

Ever read World Sailing's advice on putting together NORs and SIs?  They don't want the party information put into them.  How fucking stupid is that?  The party is everything.  The racing is a given.

The training they have given race officials teaches them not to run races (that freakin Cat in the Hat flag I despise) until everything is just set perfectly and the wind is perfect.  Club racing is not the Farr 40 worlds and so many races are lost due to this over management of racing.

Use of propulsion is banned, it should be allowed for getting off the rocks, and redress required to let the judges confirm that the propulsion did not cause the boat to advance on the race course, and their penalty for propulsion use should be the time aground.

Eliminate the hail and flag for protests.  Just let people file a protest within the time limit. Too many protests are never heard because of this provision, that should.

Ban crew weight limits, they are anti-social and cause people to quit racing.

Allow Pros on boats, but require that they coach other boats before and after races by pulling up alongside of them and giving them pointers.

All offshore boats shall have an operating head with an enclosure, there will be no bucket dumping allowed (technically this is already in the rules, but needs to be stated in black and white).  We must make this sport more attractive to females.

The IRPCAS says that you must go to a rescue with jail and financial penalty if you don't.  But they also provide an escape clause, if you have to put your boat or your crew at harm to do so, you can skip assisting to help (face it, the other boat f'ed up, why should you die or destroy your boat helping them?).  The RRS requires you to go help and does not offer any escape clause.  A minor technicality, but important one in my eyes.  Theoretically the biggest penalty for failure is a DSQ which is minor on the scale of things, but this RRS should mirror international agreed upon laws.

My fingers are getting tired, but I could go on.

 

 

 

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44 minutes ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

The training they have given race officials teaches them not to run races ... until everything is just set perfectly and the wind is perfect.  Club racing is not the Farr 40 worlds and so many races are lost due to this over management of racing.

Some truth to this. I’m not sure that I agree that “so many races are lost” because of a fetish with getting the course 95% perfect (100% is impossible); however, I have seen plenty of starts postponed, which is certainly frustrating for racers. ROs are well-advised not to let the perfect be the enemy of the good, especially at club level.

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54 minutes ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

All offshore boats shall have an operating head with an enclosure, there will be no bucket dumping allowed (technically this is already in the rules, but needs to be stated in black and white).  We must make this sport more attractive to females.

Right on! Because we all know that women are such princesses, and are entirely unwilling, or indeed unable, to rough it during a race. :rolleyes:

Offshore boats should further be required to have: (1) dedicated watertight storage for a minimum of two handbags and three pairs of Christian Loubotins per crew member; (2) sufficient water tankage to allow each crew member to take two 5-minute showers every 24 hours; (3) one butane hairdryer, and one butane hair curler, per every two crew members. No exceptions.

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That sounds downright civil, what time do we leave the dock?

18 minutes ago, Svanen said:

Right on! Because we all know that women are such princesses, and are entirely unwilling, or indeed unable, to rough it during a race. :rolleyes:

Offshore boats should further be required to have: (1) dedicated watertight storage for a minimum of two handbags and three pairs of Christian Loubotins per crew member; (2) sufficient water tankage to allow each crew member to take two 5-minute showers every 24 hours; (3) one butane hairdryer, and one butane hair curler, per every two crew members. No exceptions.

 

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7 hours ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

How about the new RRS69? Talk about unnecessary and brought about because of professional sailors, having nothing to do with amateur sailing.

It is overreach by all means but that review of RRS69 rule and processes didn't come about because of the Olympics. It came about because a penalty imposed in AC34 wound up in front of the CAS.

The rest of your list of complaints can either be modified by SIs (and generally are for offshore racing in this part of the world, ) or aren't actually rules-related.

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On 5/16/2018 at 11:06 AM, Glenn McCarthy said:

 There are about 20 rules that do not need to be in there for weekend/beercan racing.  These rules are offensive to the average sailor, and unneeded for fair competition.  But you must comply with them because US Sailing / World Sailing says so.

 

 

 

The 20  offensive rules came down to one which wasnt even in parts 1,2 and 3 which we actually use for racing.

Rule 69 is in Part 5 section C and deals with misconduct , ......"conduct that is a breach of good manners, breach of  good sportsmanship or unethical behaviour"

God forbid, the average sailor does this kind of thing...but we need to be aware that there have been rule 69 cases that involve amateur sailors. The misconduct by amateur sailors has included egregious bullying  and foul language directed by an adult at youth sailors both during and after racing. It has included deliberate cheating under measurement rules and and clear and knowing intent to conceal the cheating.  It has included misreporting and lying about a course sailed. Many of the hearings are private and we do not hear the precise behaviour which warranted the hearing.  

Hopefully rule 69 is not directed at the average sailor but the average sailor does deserve to be protected from this kind of behaviour by the governing body of our sport,  and Rule 69 generally does the job

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On 5/16/2018 at 10:17 PM, Glenn McCarthy said:

Contact between boats is allowed with a simple spin of the boat. Probably a broken finger if between two sailing dinghies, but absolutely stupid and incomprehensible to have in the rules for two 70-footers, or any offshore keelboat, and many inshore keelboats as well.

Causing injury or damage is a breach of 14. A two-turn penalty does not exonerate causing injury or serious damage

Quote

How about the new RRS69? Talk about unnecessary and brought about because of professional sailors, having nothing to do with amateur sailing.

69 gets used more than you might think, especially with junior sailors.

Quote

Ever read World Sailing's advice on putting together NORs and SIs? They don't want the party information put into them.  How fucking stupid is that?  The party is everything.  The racing is a given.

NoR and Sis are defined as rules. Far better not to have party information as rules.

Quote

The training they have given race officials teaches them not to run races (that freakin Cat in the Hat flag I despise) until everything is just set perfectly and the wind is perfect. Club racing is not the Farr 40 worlds and so many races are lost due to this over management of racing.

Here, at least, club level RO courses have nothing to do with WS. The RYA’s Club Race Officer Course deals equally with round the cans as with windward leeward. (And also suggests AP for _major_ wind shifts that lead to a biased line).

Quote

Use of propulsion is banned, it should be allowed for getting off the rocks, and redress required to let the judges confirm that the propulsion did not cause the boat to advance on the race course, and their penalty for propulsion use should be the time aground.

Easily allowed by an SI, and that’s how it’s done at Cowes week, for example.

Quote

Eliminate the hail and flag for protests. Just let people file a protest within the time limit. Too many protests are never heard because of this provision, that should.

The hail means that a protested boat knows to take a two turn penalty if she thinks it appropriate. No hail means penalty for a misjudgement is RET/DSQ.

Quote

Ban crew weight limits, they are anti-social and cause people to quit racing. Allow Pros on boats, but require that they coach other boats before and after races by pulling up alongside of them and giving them pointers.

No weight limits just means a sausage fest crew of lard. Allowing pros is a class decision that’s left to classes. Generally, if I hire someone myself, I want him to work for me. Fleet training sessions are something different (and can work well). Not a thing to mandate in the rules.

Quote

All offshore boats shall have an operating head with an enclosure, there will be no bucket dumping allowed (technically this is already in the rules, but needs to be stated in black and white). We must make this sport more attractive to females.

Agree.

Quote

The IRPCAS says that you must go to a rescue with jail and financial penalty if you don't. But they also provide an escape clause, if you have to put your boat or your crew at harm to do so, you can skip assisting to help (face it, the other boat f'ed up, why should you die or destroy your boat helping them?).

IPRCAS says nothing about providing assistance. SOLAS V regulation 33 – which also applies to racing boats -  says: “The master of a ship at sea which is in a position to be able to provide assistance on receiving information from any source that persons are in distress at sea, is bound to proceed with all speed to their assistance, if possible informing them or the search and rescue service that the ship is doing so. . . If the ship receiving the distress alert is unable or, in the special circumstances of the case, considers it unreasonable or unnecessary to proceed to their assistance, the master must enter in the log-book the reason for failing to proceed to the assistance ….”

Quote

The RRS requires you to go help and does not offer any escape clause. A minor technicality, but important one in my eyes.  Theoretically the biggest penalty for failure is a DSQ which is minor on the scale of things, but this RRS should mirror international agreed upon laws.

WS and organising authorities have no jurisdiction over the law, and cannot apply legal penalties. WS/OAs can only deal with the racing rules, and the only penalty available under the racing rules outside a rule 69 hearing is DSQ/DNE.

RRS 1.1 Helping Those in Danger
A  boat  or  competitor  shall  give  all  possible  help  to  any  person  or vessel in danger.

To my reading, “all possible help” implies not putting yourself in danger.

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1 hour ago, Presuming Ed said:

RRS 1.1 Helping Those in Danger
A  boat  or  competitor  shall  give  all  possible  help  to  any  person  or vessel in danger.

 

This is the most important rule in the rule book. It represents everything good that we as sailors stands for. The code of the sailor who will always stand by a fellow sailor in danger is what separates sailing from other sports.

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