jgbrown

Talk me out of a boat? Steel 35 in need of refit.

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https://skagit.craigslist.org/boa/d/35ft-steel-hull-sailboat/6568625255.html

Anybody know anything about the yard/designer?  "1979 Garcia shipyard (France) steel production hull, multi-chine Guy Silard design."

I like the idea of a ketch, they just look right to me, I like the idea of a steel boat for what I plan to do with it, and I like the idea of learning to work with a new hull material.

Everything else about it screams don't fucking do it you idiot, how many people have you talked out of this exact stupid move, or had to give the bad news to that they bought something not worth fixing.  I have a voice in the back of my head telling me stick to fiberglass and save my pennies and keep looking for that nice CS36T or S&S 34 with that's going at a bargain price because it needs something that falls right in the regular shop operations(either a repower or some nice large area low penetration hull damage above the waterline.  

Things that we can handle in the yard as part of the normal flow of work:

Fiberglass, paint, electrical, plumbing, electronics, upholstery, cabinetry, etc. 

Things we don't have any background in:

rigging and welding(I've done it for sculptures in a past life, but never where I needed to trust it for structural integrity like on a hull so I don't want to re-learn the skills where a mistake would be dangerous).  The former I'd have to get done out of town, the latter I can contract out, but it costs about 20$/hr more. 


 

 

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There's nothing wrong with steel as a material especially for a chine hull. But I would say that - I built one.

HOWEVER - when I value a boat like that, I work backwards.

First I check out what it costs to buy one already in the water, floating and ready to use. Sure, there's things you don't find out until you own it - but it's a starting point.

Given that figure I then add the cost of everything I know needs to be done to the project boat to get it to the same point, neglecting the time to a large degree, just the cash outlay.

Quite often, once you do this, you realise that the project boat actually has negative value. Then unless you're absolutely in love with the design, you walk away.

That one you linked to has a Volvo engine - it better be in real good shape. How much is a new engine?

The thing that terrifies non-welders about metal boats is corrosion but the fact is that, with a chine hull form, replating areas where the plate is thin due to rust is actually really quick, easy and once done as strong as the original build. You do need to get at the interior for fire watch and welding so the interior might suffer, but the actual plating is easy.

Plating on a hull that size is likely to be 3mm minimum, 4mm likely and 5mm maximum as it really doesn't need to be that thick for structural reasons. 3mm is a bit of a shit to weld fair so a lot of short tacks, 4mm is a delight in comparison and 5mm is equally as good.

What I do for plating is cut out the bad bits, clean up the frames (all straight line sections and probably fine anyway) then make up a template, plasma cut the plate, offer it up to the hole and tack it in the centre of the piece top & bottom. Then bend it to shape - probably an easy job as the original was bent around the frames. There are a lot of different ways to doing this, depends on where the replating is needed. Colvin's books on steel boat building or Gil Klingel's book both are good references for this. For bottom plating I used a porta-power to get the plate to lie fair on the frames & longitudinal stringers. I always leave a free edge or 2, working away from the original tacks. That way the plate has somewhere to move if you get much heat-created distortion.

Oh yes it better have been blasted to bare metal on the interior and very well painted. Then preferably insulated over the paint job. Some insulation is really flammable, you need to check this. Ditto for toxicity. I used sheet polystyrene rated for houses, not toxic & doesn't support combustion. I checked this myself on scraps too, just in case someone lied (building cladding anyone...).

Probably TMI but chine hull steel boats are really easy to repair for any competent welder who has a feel for the material.

FKT

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31 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

There's nothing wrong with steel as a material especially for a chine hull. But I would say that - I built one.

HOWEVER - when I value a boat like that, I work backwards.

First I check out what it costs to buy one already in the water, floating and ready to use. Sure, there's things you don't find out until you own it - but it's a starting point.

Given that figure I then add the cost of everything I know needs to be done to the project boat to get it to the same point, neglecting the time to a large degree, just the cash outlay.

Quite often, once you do this, you realise that the project boat actually has negative value. Then unless you're absolutely in love with the design, you walk away.

That one you linked to has a Volvo engine - it better be in real good shape. How much is a new engine?

The thing that terrifies non-welders about metal boats is corrosion but the fact is that, with a chine hull form, replating areas where the plate is thin due to rust is actually really quick, easy and once done as strong as the original build. You do need to get at the interior for fire watch and welding so the interior might suffer, but the actual plating is easy.

Plating on a hull that size is likely to be 3mm minimum, 4mm likely and 5mm maximum as it really doesn't need to be that thick for structural reasons. 3mm is a bit of a shit to weld fair so a lot of short tacks, 4mm is a delight in comparison and 5mm is equally as good.

What I do for plating is cut out the bad bits, clean up the frames (all straight line sections and probably fine anyway) then make up a template, plasma cut the plate, offer it up to the hole and tack it in the centre of the piece top & bottom. Then bend it to shape - probably an easy job as the original was bent around the frames. There are a lot of different ways to doing this, depends on where the replating is needed. Colvin's books on steel boat building or Gil Klingel's book both are good references for this. For bottom plating I used a porta-power to get the plate to lie fair on the frames & longitudinal stringers. I always leave a free edge or 2, working away from the original tacks. That way the plate has somewhere to move if you get much heat-created distortion.

Oh yes it better have been blasted to bare metal on the interior and very well painted. Then preferably insulated over the paint job. Some insulation is really flammable, you need to check this. Ditto for toxicity. I used sheet polystyrene rated for houses, not toxic & doesn't support combustion. I checked this myself on scraps too, just in case someone lied (building cladding anyone...).

Probably TMI but chine hull steel boats are really easy to repair for any competent welder who has a feel for the material.

FKT

The slightly different variable is that I have endless piles of "bits" lying around the place, for example if I'm willing to spend an evening with a can of paint and a bit of sandpaper I could probably build myself at least a couple blue seas breaker panels, same again but with a rebuild kit added to rebuild a big Racor, etc.   Hell I even have a few fuel tanks lying about the place that would probably last 4-5 years(not worth again burying when it requires pulling the deck and interior to get to in a powerboat), I even have a nice set of new water tanks lying about somewhere that someone had me order in and never paid me for.   The only variable between one like this and a FG boat for me is in the hull expenses.  On both rigging expenses are unknown (since I know absolutely nothing about sailboat rigging either).  

 

That is fantastic information about the hull though, thank you so much for the info!  Makes it a little easier to think about starting to learn to weld for those reasons myself. 

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My number one criteria for choosing a boat material is: Can I repair it myself.

That means glass or composite. I can't weld so metal boats are not a consideration.

Sounds like you are in much the same boat (sorry).

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3 hours ago, jgbrown said:

That is fantastic information about the hull though, thank you so much for the info!  Makes it a little easier to think about starting to learn to weld for those reasons myself. 

Basically, other than the actual skill, all you need to do re-plating is a 50A plasma cutter (cheap on eBay), a reasonable MIG welder (mine cost me $1200 AUD and has a max output of 250A@60% duty cycle, it's overkill but nice), an angle grinder or 2 and some big hammers, wedges etc etc. You can use flux cored wire and avoid gas shielding but I really don't like the stuff, it works fine and if you can't weld protected from the wind it's the way to go, but a shielded weld using 80% argon/20% CO2 and solid wire gives much nicer results. And cleaner.

FKT

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jgbrown, do you want to work on a boat, or sail a boat?

Boats which will suck years of your life and piles of your cash seem to lure you like a moth to the flame.   That is fine if you want to be a boat-fixer.  But if you want to sail, then the demons are leading you astray into uncharted reefs.  In fog.

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^^ this

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Dont go there. You're drunk, its late, youve got your beer goggles on, you WILL chew your arm off in the morning

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BTW, this boat has an offset companionway ...

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Garcia is a good builder who is still trading thanks to its reputation for quality builds, I don't know of a naval architect called guy silard but there is a Guy Saillard (http://saillard-guy.com/index.php?page=accueil) which designed a few boats and I think that this one is a "Bieroc" that was available either as a cutter or a ketch. There was also a bigger one called "Esquina", on French forum there are positive feedbacks about these 2 boats.

For a boat this age, I would rather have a steel or a wooden chine boats than a GRP one, as @Fah Kiew Tu mentioned developable hulls are easier to fix if it comes to the worst, on the other hand a GRP hull that becomes soft is hard to fix.

OK, I ma doing a very bad job of talking you out of it....

Look at what they mean by "need some work", that's probably your best bet to not buy it.

 

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8 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

jgbrown, do you want to work on a boat, or sail a boat?

Boats which will suck years of your life and piles of your cash seem to lure you like a moth to the flame.   That is fine if you want to be a boat-fixer.  But if you want to sail, then the demons are leading you astray into uncharted reefs.  In fog.

 

7 hours ago, Gutterblack said:

Dont go there. You're drunk, its late, youve got your beer goggles on, you WILL chew your arm off in the morning

 

6 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

BTW, this boat has an offset companionway ...

JG,

I have awoken almost panting, from sweat-soaking nightmares in which I have sold my house and bought a fixer-upper which is in a state of spontaneous disintegration, or in which I have sold my perfectly nice H-Boat and bought something like this. My wife asks if I am OK, and I am so relieved and so happy to say, "Yes, dear," and then fall back to blissful slumber.

Don't do it.

B.C.

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I’m not saying walk away

I’m saying run and don’t look back!!!

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11 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

jgbrown, do you want to work on a boat, or sail a boat?

Boats which will suck years of your life and piles of your cash seem to lure you like a moth to the flame.   That is fine if you want to be a boat-fixer.  But if you want to sail, then the demons are leading you astray into uncharted reefs.  In fog.

Yeah ... but it's a steel boat, so we'll just drag it over the reef, slap on a fresh coat of house paint, and off she goes. 

/s

Honestly, that's not a bad-looking platform. The interior should probably be power-washed with a flamethrower, but if the welds are good and the engine sound, a person who enjoys the inside stuff could turn that into a fine short-handed cruiser for colder waters. Bit silly to hire a professional surveyor for a $7500 boat, but if you know someone who knows welds & can drag them along for a look-see.... 

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10 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

jgbrown, do you want to work on a boat, or sail a boat?

Boats which will suck years of your life and piles of your cash seem to lure you like a moth to the flame.   That is fine if you want to be a boat-fixer.  But if you want to sail, then the demons are leading you astray into uncharted reefs.  In fog.

Well for the next two years at least I won't be able to sail it(and can't get moorage here sooner than 5 years on the current wait list) so I couldn't even float about on it if I wanted to.  Buying something in the size I want in sailaway condition is not possible, and most fiberglass boats I'd be redoing the thru-hulls, bottom paint, plumbing and electrical at a minimum plus likely re-sealing deck hardware and portlights anyways.  I could buy a smaller almost ready to go boat and finish it, but then when it comes time to upgrade I am unlikely to have the time and facilities I have available now.  The trick is in finding the right project so that it mostly fits into the regular flow of work.  I have had some good success in smaller powerboats, bringing them in from as far away as the Southern US if the price, layout and problems are right. 

So I want a boat that I can afford to buy where the low price is caused by either:

1.  Required repairs from a single failure that fall within our normal scope of work(IE It needs a re-power, it has hull damage from either a dock or a forklift, anything not related to a significant impact underway that caused damage in the keel area, or it sank due to a failed thru hull, that sort of thing). 

2.  Neglect affecting systems and interior fit out, but not structural unless extremely localized(IE.  idiot installed a new windlass 3-4 years ago with no sealant, deck rotted out there but hasn't spread). 

Then it gives me something to pick away at over the next couple years, refurbish and install used parts and buy a few new bits here and there when the prices are right(wholesaler trade show pricing which happens once a year for example).

In fiberglass I'd love to find a S&S 34 or CS36t or Valiant 40 with one of the above two situations,  but I haven't seen one on this coast in a realistic price range with some work needed.

 

10 hours ago, Gutterblack said:

Dont go there. You're drunk, its late, youve got your beer goggles on, you WILL chew your arm off in the morning

Yes, I like it less now, but still tempted.  Like women my taste in boats runs to ones that are likely to break my heart.   Although this one isn't very pretty, which seems to be a common theme in steel boats. 

 

 

9 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

BTW, this boat has an offset companionway ...

Don't most ketches?  

2 hours ago, Bull City said:

 

 

JG,

I have awoken almost panting, from sweat-soaking nightmares in which I have sold my house and bought a fixer-upper which is in a state of spontaneous disintegration, or in which I have sold my perfectly nice H-Boat and bought something like this. My wife asks if I am OK, and I am so relieved and so happy to say, "Yes, dear," and then fall back to blissful slumber.

Don't do it.

B.C.

Lol.  Well put. 

 

12 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Basically, other than the actual skill, all you need to do re-plating is a 50A plasma cutter (cheap on eBay), a reasonable MIG welder (mine cost me $1200 AUD and has a max output of 250A@60% duty cycle, it's overkill but nice), an angle grinder or 2 and some big hammers, wedges etc etc. You can use flux cored wire and avoid gas shielding but I really don't like the stuff, it works fine and if you can't weld protected from the wind it's the way to go, but a shielded weld using 80% argon/20% CO2 and solid wire gives much nicer results. And cleaner.

FKT

Ok so I could pencil in about 2000$ for welder+cutter, I've probably got the rest(portapower etc). 

 

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There is a contradiction with cheap fixer upper boats, the reason you go for them is because they are cheap and you cant afford a good version.

But to get a cheap boat up to speed costs far more than buying the best one of that model you can afford. Your labour is arguably free (not really) but everything else costs, including having it parked somewhere.

Lost is all of the romance is the time factor, even if you get a boat that needs relatively minor work, trust me on this , it can become major really fast and since you havent got the cash to get the job done then it takes time. You grow older, sometimes a lot older. All that said if you are young have some money and have skills or dont mind learning them then why not? You wont get your money back and the guy who borrowed 50 or 100k is out there sailing in a much better boat that has some resale value. 

My advice, look for a much better boat and a loan. 

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1 hour ago, jgbrown said:

So I want a boat that I can afford to buy where the low price is caused by either:

1.  Required repairs from a single failure that fall within our normal scope of work(IE It needs a re-power, it has hull damage from either a dock or a forklift, anything not related to a significant impact underway that caused damage in the keel area, or it sank due to a failed thru hull, that sort of thing). 

2.  Neglect affecting systems and interior fit out, but not structural unless extremely localized(IE.  idiot installed a new windlass 3-4 years ago with no sealant, deck rotted out there but hasn't spread). 

Then it gives me something to pick away at over the next couple years decades, refurbish and install used parts and buy a few new bits here and there when the prices are right(wholesaler trade show pricing which happens once a year for example).

FIFY.

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1 hour ago, Gutterblack said:

There is a contradiction with cheap fixer upper boats, the reason you go for them is because they are cheap and you cant afford a good version.

But to get a cheap boat up to speed costs far more than buying the best one of that model you can afford. Your labour is arguably free (not really) but everything else costs, including having it parked somewhere.

Lost is all of the romance is the time factor, even if you get a boat that needs relatively minor work, trust me on this , it can become major really fast and since you havent got the cash to get the job done then it takes time. You grow older, sometimes a lot older. All that said if you are young have some money and have skills or dont mind learning them then why not? You wont get your money back and the guy who borrowed 50 or 100k is out there sailing in a much better boat that has some resale value. 

My advice, look for a much better boat and a loan. 

As much as that's great advice for most, I expect I'd be able to get a loan for a boat about the time I'm too old to enjoy it.   Parking it is free as long as I've got a boatyard to lose money in.  I'd still rather a single large problem on an otherwise good boat that is depressing the price on it vs the total neglect scenario of the boat I posted, but all those seem to be on the other coast.  For example if you've run a forklift down the side of a boat, you're probably looking at a 10, 000$ yard bill, but most of that is in hours not materials.  In the 30, 000$ price range that's a serious hit and people may be fed up enough to dump the boat at that point.   

 

 

39 minutes ago, Bull City said:

FIFY.

An interior fixup and re-wire and re-plumb should be on the order of 300-800 hours depending how much of a PITA it is and how fancy you want to get.  This thing I'd probably budget for 1500 because it's harder to be impartial when you're looking at something you want, and because I'll probably spend some time farting around in the evenings(and thus slowly) possibly mess with the layout a little and the scheduling will be a bit more irregular.  Something that falls under the first category with single large problem should be resolvable within a month.  Leaving the rest of the time to work on non-critical problems. That would be ideal, get the big lump of work done while still excited, and then just pick away at the bits as there are components and time available.      If there are issues with the hull requiring a complete strip out, then yeah it's not going to be quick(or if it is it won't be pretty). 

 

For reference we're at about hour 350 into a complete refit on a sinker right now, I anticipate completion around the 600-800 hr mark, was originally penciled in lower, but then he opted for new galley, to be able to sleep in it, new head liner, new hull liner, new dash etc.  

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There is a reason its cheap and you could not give that boat to me, you would have to pay me to take it away.

I also think you grossly underestimate the time and money, but you mention already having a project so the issue is about a way of thinking. A 35 foot boat needing work including an interior rebuild is far bigger and more time consuming than you realise. Whats more, once you've invested all that time and money to make one part shiny then all the dated 1980 gear looks really bad, most will need replacement.

Just for starters price a motor rebuild/replace, gearbox rebuild/replace, engine mounts, alternator rebuild if it has a freezer then a service will make youre eyes widen! Batteries, electronic upgrades, through hulls and pipework, you will be shocked, then price a few sails as the ones on that boat are fucked. New rigging and lines, pulling masts and service. We are just warming up, now paint a steel boat properly (after ultrasounding and replacing unknown amounts of steelwork) dont forget antifouling, prop service etc. There are a million other time consuming and expensive things to do but basically if you buy it, don't bother fixing it up properly, patch, paint and sail. Get a season or two then sell it to some other dreamer to waste their life on.

 

 

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Maybe I missed something, but do you own a boatyard?

28 minutes ago, jgbrown said:

An interior fixup and re-wire and re-plumb should be on the order of 300-800 hours depending how much of a PITA it is and how fancy you want to get.  This thing I'd probably budget for 1500 because it's harder to be impartial when you're looking at something you want, and because I'll probably spend some time farting around in the evenings(and thus slowly) possibly mess with the layout a little and the scheduling will be a bit more irregular.  Something that falls under the first category with single large problem should be resolvable within a month.  Leaving the rest of the time to work on non-critical problems. That would be ideal, get the big lump of work done while still excited, and then just pick away at the bits as there are components and time available.      If there are issues with the hull requiring a complete strip out, then yeah it's not going to be quick(or if it is it won't be pretty). 

 

For reference we're at about hour 350 into a complete refit on a sinker right now, I anticipate completion around the 600-800 hr mark, was originally penciled in lower, but then he opted for new galley, to be able to sleep in it, new head liner, new hull liner, new dash etc.  

 

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3 minutes ago, Bull City said:

Maybe I missed something, but do you own a boatyard?

 

He's a pro.  That makes a difference. I was crazy to buy a $2400 boat & have it shipped here, and people would probably say gutting it tobare hull & rebuilding the entire living area makes no sense. But if I point to the fully-equipped woodworking shop four feet from the boat & say, "That's my living" ... makes a bit more sense. Not a lot, but a bit. :D I don't have to drive two hours to hack around with inadequate tools in some storage yard.  Time is not our problem, nor lack of skills. People with good-paying jobs are better off buying turnkey, probably. 

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4 minutes ago, Diarmuid said:

He's a pro.  That makes a difference.

Go for it, Baby! Hey, with the new tariff on steel, you'll make it up in no time!

- DJT

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6 minutes ago, Bull City said:

Go for it, Baby! Hey, with the new tariff on steel, you'll make it up in no time!

- DJT

Lead's down to $0.75 from its peak around $1.10, but I confess to viewing that as equity of sorts. ;) If Maine Sail was eyeing a beater C&C 40, wouldn't you have to say:" No better person to buy that boat. I'd be an idiot to try it, but MS? That's what he does." 

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19 hours ago, jgbrown said:

I have a voice in the back of my head telling me stick to fiberglass and save my pennies and keep looking for that nice CS36T or S&S 34 with that's going at a bargain price...

The reason you are asking for advice here is because you aren't confident of your own opinion. But the people here have not even seen the boat, so what do they know. Competent opinions about specific steel boats can be obtained. With luck, someone who can supply that will look over the boat for free, but it the itch doesn't subside, spend the $500-$1000 for a survey. 

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1 hour ago, Diarmuid said:

He's a pro.  That makes a difference. I was crazy to buy a $2400 boat & have it shipped here, and people would probably say gutting it tobare hull & rebuilding the entire living area makes no sense. But if I point to the fully-equipped woodworking shop four feet from the boat & say, "That's my living" ... makes a bit more sense. Not a lot, but a bit. :D I don't have to drive two hours to hack around with inadequate tools in some storage yard.  Time is not our problem, nor lack of skills. People with good-paying jobs are better off buying turnkey, probably. 

Yeah that's the two part problem.

1.Fixing boats doesn't pay well.  Sure it pays well if you look at the shop rate, but after subtracting overhead, insurance, subtract time spent on the phone chasing suppliers and sub contractors around, subtract time spent on paperwork, it works out to under 8$ an hour near as I can figure, unless you're an employee, then it pays better.   You know better than to buy a project boat, but it's all you can afford, so you look for the least bad option.

Exactly on the bit more sensible, but only a bit.  You get the tools and the background but no budget.  Boats are fundamentally illogical to own in the first place so it's just replacing one questionable idea for another.  I'm just not seeing the boats I'd like in FG with the kind of work needed that would get them into my price range, this had instant appeal on two counts but knowing nothing about steel boats I was curious if there were any good arguments against them(internal systems and fit out excluded). 

1 hour ago, SemiSalt said:

The reason you are asking for advice here is because you aren't confident of your own opinion. But the people here have not even seen the boat, so what do they know. Competent opinions about specific steel boats can be obtained. With luck, someone who can supply that will look over the boat for free, but it the itch doesn't subside, spend the $500-$1000 for a survey. 

In my opinion, many surveys are valuable to insurance, and nice CYA for selling, but not all that useful for buying.  I've had too many boats through with great surveys that I would think would be well suited to life as a planter box in a garden, with the survey as compost for the flowers.     Fortunately our local surveyors is pretty thorough, but he's a fiberglass and wood guy.    I had kind of hoped that someone here might have experience with this brand or designer since I couldn't find anything at all about them online, or some point about the design of the hull/rig that would make it a bad idea, I should have made that more clear in the beginning.   The internal fit out which people have focused on is the one area where I'm not fussed.  It's the areas I'm wholly ignorant of(rig layout, steel hull, hull design).   For example I also had my eye on another steel boat for a bit, but I found someone who had experience of the boat in question and noted that it had a problem when built that was not simple to fix, as well as some flaws inherent in it's design so I passed on it. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Bull City said:

FIFY.

Rubbish. Have you ever built anything more complex than a dog house?

I built a boat that size in less than 6 years actual hands-on time. That includes doing a lot of stuff other people just buy, like building a copy of the Edson Simplex steering gear, machining my own prop shaft/couplings, making thrust bearing assemblies, milling nearly all my own timber, doing all the carpentry, wiring, plumbing and rigging plus sewing my own sails.

If I'd actually known what I was doing I could have cut 18 months or more off of that time.

I can speak from personal experience on how long stuff takes. I don't think you guys actually have a single clue. At least half of you don't even do your own maintenance.

Not that I'm encouraging the OP to do this, I'm not. Just, it isn't that impossible or life-sapping a project. I enjoyed at least 2/3 of the work.

FKT

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Wait for the right glass boat to come along.

Steel rarely, if ever, gets the price that a comparable glass boat does. Recouping your investment in a project boat is difficult enough without saddling it with a less desirable and lower value hull material.

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3 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Wait for the right glass boat to come along.

Steel rarely, if ever, gets the price that a comparable glass boat does. Recouping your investment in a project boat is difficult enough without saddling it with a less desirable and lower value hull material.

True. You won't increase the resale value a huge amount - steel boats seem to top out at maybe $30K to $50K depending on designer, systems etc etc. In fact you would be really lucky to recover 30c on the dollar spent and zero for labour.

I think you can get a cheap ultrasonic steel thickness tester now. Personally I'd buy one then run a grid over the hull looking for thin spots especially below the water line. Or hire someone to do it. If the thickness is pretty even, forget about the hull integrity, it's fine. Saves a lot of internal inspection effort.

Paint - you have a yard, if the hull isn't rusting then a cut back, something like Jotun 605 epoxy built up to 300 microns then top-coated with any decent paint and it's fine. The paint is there to protect the steel more than be a perfect reflective surface, which you likely won't get with a steel hull anyway.

The interior you know how to deal with. Ignore all the stuff about bad sails etc - that applies to any bottom of the market beater boat for sale. Ditto engines, electronics etc.

Personally I give no consideration to resale - a boat is a depreciating object. You buy/build then use and sell at a loss. I don't particularly care for the lines of that one so I wouldn't buy it myself. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be a good boat to get you out on the water though.

It's a project. How badly do you want a project?

FKT

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FKT’s approach to sound the hull makes sense and turn the engine over. If ok then why not? Hell, just a sand and paint of the interior joinery with new upholstery would help. Offer $1500 and see if the owner really want to ditch it.

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51 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Rubbish. Have you ever built anything more complex than a dog house?

Actually, no. You obviously have it all over us.

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

True. You won't increase the resale value a huge amount - steel boats seem to top out at maybe $30K to $50K depending on designer, systems etc etc. In fact you would be really lucky to recover 30c on the dollar spent and zero for labour.

I think you can get a cheap ultrasonic steel thickness tester now. Personally I'd buy one then run a grid over the hull looking for thin spots especially below the water line. Or hire someone to do it. If the thickness is pretty even, forget about the hull integrity, it's fine. Saves a lot of internal inspection effort.

Paint - you have a yard, if the hull isn't rusting then a cut back, something like Jotun 605 epoxy built up to 300 microns then top-coated with any decent paint and it's fine. The paint is there to protect the steel more than be a perfect reflective surface, which you likely won't get with a steel hull anyway.

The interior you know how to deal with. Ignore all the stuff about bad sails etc - that applies to any bottom of the market beater boat for sale. Ditto engines, electronics etc.

Personally I give no consideration to resale - a boat is a depreciating object. You buy/build then use and sell at a loss. I don't particularly care for the lines of that one so I wouldn't buy it myself. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be a good boat to get you out on the water though.

It's a project. How badly do you want a project?

FKT

Yeah boats are a liability, never an investment.  Hell even the latest iphone isn't as fast a way to burn money.  This is sort of a once in a lifetime project and opportunity really.  Not this particular boat, but to refit a boat the way I want, with free storage and access to services.   I'm at the right age for it, and the right point in my life, I have the tools, some of the experience needed, I'm recently single so no plans to get married and settle down, and next time I won't make the mistake of getting involved with someone who is content far away from the ocean and scared of boats.  The objective is to find the right boat to sink that into.   The goal is to have something I can live on comfortably locally, go exploring on while I'm still young and healthy enough to go(I suspect based on jobs I had when younger and stupider that the chemical exposures and dusts will come back to haunt me before I'm quite old), and then keep locally either living aboard or as a toy.   Ideally something where I can restructure the V-berth as a tool crib, so I can continue in the same business mobile.   So the return on the investment of time and money now will be not paying more to do the same later, and having a good comfortable home for 10-15 years, I do it fully understanding that the money will never be returned on resale.  The only boats that are viable for a profit on resale as far as I'm concerned are 16-18' powerboats when you can pick them up <500$ with a trailer. 

Are ultrasonic testers fairly reliable?  I would hate to do something like that and find out I was getting a read off some bondo holding the rust fragments together.   I don't particularly want a project, I have a sufficiency of those(if you can call a 100' laneway full of hulls sufficient), but they are simply to be fixed for resale if we get slow for a while.  I have no interest in owning any of them.  But I do want a boat correctly fitted out, and I have found few that I would consider satisfactory, and if I'm going to rip the guts out I may as well try to start cheap. 

Another good option would be to find a boat that's 90% complete on refit where the owner started with cost as no object until getting tired of it and is giving up(there was a beautiful steel boat, new built needing interior fit out completed and motor installed(motor on a skid) but it was 50' long.  It seems most of the ideal projects like this are too big or too small.  Why most of those ambitious enough to do such things stay out of the 30s I'm not sure. 

 

I may(emphasis on may) have a local outfit that is trying to get into blasting to potentially blast one test boat for me @ cost of materials only as a demo, so I could get the outside blasted before paint.  I like things to be reasonably fair, and wouldn't mind taking a boat back to baseline before painting. 

 

1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Rubbish. Have you ever built anything more complex than a dog house?

I built a boat that size in less than 6 years actual hands-on time. That includes doing a lot of stuff other people just buy, like building a copy of the Edson Simplex steering gear, machining my own prop shaft/couplings, making thrust bearing assemblies, milling nearly all my own timber, doing all the carpentry, wiring, plumbing and rigging plus sewing my own sails.

If I'd actually known what I was doing I could have cut 18 months or more off of that time.

I can speak from personal experience on how long stuff takes. I don't think you guys actually have a single clue. At least half of you don't even do your own maintenance.

Not that I'm encouraging the OP to do this, I'm not. Just, it isn't that impossible or life-sapping a project. I enjoyed at least 2/3 of the work.

FKT

He's not far wrong in most cases though, I've seen enough of those go through the yard as DIY projects, most yards have a field of broken dreams in one area or another for the ones we know will never hit water.   You had the skills, knowledge and dedication to make it possible.   The rule of thumb I give people who want to start large projects is that the first 8 hours a month is just avoiding sliding backwards, per week if you're starting to learn and work your time budget from there.  If your time budget is the weekend with a few beers, a 400 hour project is going to take you a very long time. 

 

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They aren't an investment but they are an asset.

I have recovered my costs and more on every boat I've owned except one incomplete project.

If you are judicious about things you can sail for your expenses - moorage, insurance etc. and most of the time you spend on them.

But that's hobby/fun time. For some of us at least.

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3 hours ago, Diarmuid said:

Lead's down to $0.75 from its peak around $1.10, but I confess to viewing that as equity of sorts. ;) If Maine Sail was eyeing a beater C&C 40, wouldn't you have to say:" No better person to buy that boat. I'd be an idiot to try it, but MS? That's what he does." 

Yes, but what boat DID he buy? IIRC, the nicest CS 36 anywhere.

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1 minute ago, monsoon said:

Yes, but what boat DID he buy? IIRC, the nicest CS 36 anywhere.

He's a smart guy.  But short of one CS36 on the east coast that was grounded and is being sold off as salvage with keel damage, and suspected flooding on land... None in my budget :-( 

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Just now, jgbrown said:

He's a smart guy.  But short of one CS36 on the east coast that was grounded and is being sold off as salvage with keel damage, and suspected flooding on land... None in my budget :-( 

I hear you.  But if you can't sail away now, maybe smarter to work and save for a couple of years?

OTOH no harm in going to take a looksee.

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23 hours ago, jgbrown said:

Talk me out of a boat?

OK.

23 hours ago, jgbrown said:

Steel 35 in need of refit.

Need anything else?

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5 minutes ago, monsoon said:

I hear you.  But if you can't sail away now, maybe smarter to work and save for a couple of years?

OTOH no harm in going to take a looksee.

At $8 an hour? (see JGB's earlier post) That's about what I earn also, and we'd need to work & save roughly 16,000 years before buying something Bristol. When your time is cheap and your skills exceed your earning power, a slow & scroungy refit is a viable path to the boat you want. Hell, I only have a house because I built one. :) But it's exactly the house I wanted, & it's vastly better than most of the crap being sold at four times the cost. "These two hands" may not rate as assets to a bank loan  officer, but sometimes those are the best assets you have. Give me some raw materials & room to swing them, I'll add the value. Not everyone's path, not for the innocent, but not automatically stupid. JGB seems to know his business, so it's down to weighting materials. Item: hull (one), steel. Value: ???

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@Diarmuid Heh, I thought it was just me!  Glad to hear it's not(sort of).  I've offered to switch places with employees, but they don't seem to keen to drop from 15-20 to 8 for some reason? 

The existing survey fixed my interest in the boat but good.  Rust on the inside, rust on the outside, rust on the tanks... No thanks.  Probably for the best. 

"There are areas of corrosion on the hull surface around and below the lower rudder pintles and
gougeons.
RECOMMENDATION: Remove loose corrosion, inspect surface area for soundness.Treat area to
prevent further corrosion.
3) The interior bilge area has widespread areas of surface to moderate corrosion where visible. The fuel
tank has areas of surface to moderate corrosion, especially along the tank side walls, where visible.
RECOMMENDATION: Remove loose corrosion, inspect surface area for soundness.Treat area to
prevent further corrosion."

 

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4 minutes ago, jgbrown said:

@Diarmuid Heh, I thought it was just me!  Glad to hear it's not(sort of).  I've offered to switch places with employees, but they don't seem to keen to drop from 15-20 to 8 for some reason? 

The survey fixed my interest in the boat but good.  Rust on the inside, rust on the outside, rust on the tanks... No thanks.  Probably for the best. 

"There are areas of corrosion on the hull surface around and below the lower rudder pintles and
gougeons.
RECOMMENDATION: Remove loose corrosion, inspect surface area for soundness.Treat area to
prevent further corrosion.
3) The interior bilge area has widespread areas of surface to moderate corrosion where visible. The fuel
tank has areas of surface to moderate corrosion, especially along the tank side walls, where visible.
RECOMMENDATION: Remove loose corrosion, inspect surface area for soundness.Treat area to
prevent further corrosion."

 

Walk away - lots of steel boats out there, that amount of corrosion is going to be a nasty, dirty PITA with needle guns, wire wheels and similar just to get back to clean metal. The outside wouldn't bother me much, extensive & widespread inside corrosion means far too much hard work.

FKT

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24 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

 

Walk away - lots of steel boats out there, that amount of corrosion is going to be a nasty, dirty PITA with needle guns, wire wheels and similar just to get back to clean metal. The outside wouldn't bother me much, extensive & widespread inside corrosion means far too much hard work.

FKT

Yup, no interest now.  Like finding out that cute girl has got several horrible, incurable STDs.  :P

There was a beautiful Wylo 32 down your way, but the delivery costs put it well out of my budget. 

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9 hours ago, jgbrown said:

  I had kind of hoped that someone here might have experience with this brand or designer since I couldn't find anything at all about them online, or some point about the design of the hull/rig that would make it a bad idea, I should have made that more clear in the beginning.   The internal fit out which people have focused on is the one area where I'm not fussed.  It's the areas I'm wholly ignorant of(rig layout, steel hull, hull design).   For example I also had my eye on another steel boat for a bit, but I found someone who had experience of the boat in question and noted that it had a problem when built that was not simple to fix, as well as some flaws inherent in it's design so I passed on it. 

 

 

The yard is well known, it's kind of the Nautor of metal boats (http://www.garcia-yachting.com/yachting.php?type=voilier), that's where Jimmy Cornell got his last boat. For a Brit to buy a French boat it has to either be very cheap or very good, it wasn't the former.

For first hand experience, you need to ask in these 2 places :

But it's all in French....

I think that it's the same as this one : https://www.inautia.fr/bateau-45508112012285097514898101529745.html

Can you confirm?

Assuming that it is structurally sound at this price it would already be gone here.

 

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5 hours ago, jgbrown said:

@Diarmuid Heh, I thought it was just me!  Glad to hear it's not(sort of).  I've offered to switch places with employees, but they don't seem to keen to drop from 15-20 to 8 for some reason? 

The existing survey fixed my interest in the boat but good.  Rust on the inside, rust on the outside, rust on the tanks... No thanks.  Probably for the best. 

"There are areas of corrosion on the hull surface around and below the lower rudder pintles and
gougeons.
RECOMMENDATION: Remove loose corrosion, inspect surface area for soundness.Treat area to
prevent further corrosion.
3) The interior bilge area has widespread areas of surface to moderate corrosion where visible. The fuel
tank has areas of surface to moderate corrosion, especially along the tank side walls, where visible.
RECOMMENDATION: Remove loose corrosion, inspect surface area for soundness.Treat area to
prevent further corrosion."

 

Yep, sounds like a

Quote

Steel 35 in need of refit.

 

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13 hours ago, Panoramix said:

The yard is well known, it's kind of the Nautor of metal boats (http://www.garcia-yachting.com/yachting.php?type=voilier), that's where Jimmy Cornell got his last boat. For a Brit to buy a French boat it has to either be very cheap or very good, it wasn't the former.

For first hand experience, you need to ask in these 2 places :

But it's all in French....

I think that it's the same as this one : https://www.inautia.fr/bateau-45508112012285097514898101529745.html

Can you confirm?

Assuming that it is structurally sound at this price it would already be gone here.

 

Thanks for all the info!   Makes sense why it's hard to find out anything about them if it's mostly in another language.  Unfortunately it looks to have a fair bit of rust from that survey, and if it's inside and outside both, I'm thinking it wasn't properly primed when built, and therefore nothing I want to tackle.  Kind of a shame, but probably for the best. 

 

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Just now, jgbrown said:

Thanks for all the info!   Makes sense why it's hard to find out anything about them if it's mostly in another language.  Unfortunately it looks to have a fair bit of rust from that survey, and if it's inside and outside both, I'm thinking it wasn't properly primed when built, and therefore nothing I want to tackle.  Kind of a shame, but probably for the best. 

 

That rust is of course why it's so cheap.....

Outside rust is generally easy to deal with - big flat surfaces, easy to use a grinder, wire wheel etc. Inside rust is a PITA. That said the amount of rust generated by quite shallow corrosion is surprising, often there's plenty of steel thickness left. However you have to get back to bare metal before re-priming and that's difficult around longitudinal stringers, frames and other fittings.

Why bother if steel isn't in your comfort zone. There are lots of boats out there. I got offered a 37' steel boat last year, free if I removed it, it needed some replating and a total interior rebuild but had a good reasonably modern low hour Yanmar. I passed. Life's too short for another project at this point. There's still a IH Drott tracked loader waiting its turn in the shop.

FKT

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7 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

That rust is of course why it's so cheap.....

Outside rust is generally easy to deal with - big flat surfaces, easy to use a grinder, wire wheel etc. Inside rust is a PITA. That said the amount of rust generated by quite shallow corrosion is surprising, often there's plenty of steel thickness left. However you have to get back to bare metal before re-priming and that's difficult around longitudinal stringers, frames and other fittings.

Why bother if steel isn't in your comfort zone. There are lots of boats out there. I got offered a 37' steel boat last year, free if I removed it, it needed some replating and a total interior rebuild but had a good reasonably modern low hour Yanmar. I passed. Life's too short for another project at this point. There's still a IH Drott tracked loader waiting its turn in the shop.

FKT

That's my thinking as well.  If it's that wide-spread I doubt the boat was properly painted in the first place, which would mean taking a lot of it to bare metal and starting over.  If it was outside only I'd got have a look but I don't have any interest in grinding inside tiny spaces with sharp edges.  What kind of boat did you build?   Back to looking for me.

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I am no expert in steel boats but my understanding is that you've got to keep painting to keep them healthy.

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14 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

I am no expert in steel boats but my understanding is that you've got to keep painting to keep them healthy.

That's certainly the US Navy's theory, and they seem to get a lot of years/miles out of theirs.

FB- Doug

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29 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

I am no expert in steel boats but my understanding is that you've got to keep painting to keep them healthy.

I could see that on the outside where it might get scraped and scuffed and is constantly exposed to UV, but I can't see any good(read not caused by cutting corners or poor materials) why the bilges especially in areas you can''t reach without disassembly should be built and finished in a way that allows that to happen.  

While I don't care for the design since I can't see any good reason for the leading edge of anything that goes through the water to be what looks like 6"+ wide and square unless it's pushing logs around,  I'd rather find something like this.  At least it's not got a whole interior to rip out to start fixing rust and still somewhat close to what I can afford. 

https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/d/37-ft-george-buehler-juna/6579284081.html

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Boat was built pre-epoxy and there is a reason beyond weight why modern metal boats are now in aluminium. Like an unloved wooden boat will rot an unloved steel one will rust. At least unlike a delaminating fibreglass boats, the chances are that you will notice before catastrophic failure.

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2 hours ago, jgbrown said:

I could see that on the outside where it might get scraped and scuffed and is constantly exposed to UV, but I can't see any good(read not caused by cutting corners or poor materials) why the bilges especially in areas you can''t reach without disassembly should be built and finished in a way that allows that to happen.

There is only one good time to paint the interior of a steel boat and that's when it's built. Anything after that is a compromise.

I had all my plate, flat bar etc blasted to white and sprayed with a weld-through primer before I laid down the first weld. I know for a fact that there is not the slightest trace of mill scale anywhere. Then I painted 4 coats of primer and 4 coats of enamel on the interior and a couple extra coats from the first longitudinal stringer down to and into the hollow box keel where water is most likely to get. It may rust but it'll be a long time away.

Outside I've a minimum of 400 microns of Jotun 605 epoxy primer (as measured by a paint thickness gauge) then something like 6 coats of a relatively thin xylene based industrial single pack paint. It's not as glossy as yacht paint but it's a damn sight cheaper, easier to apply and dries fast. I used a lot of coats to build up the total thickness, alternating colours until I was ready to do the final colour coats.

The deck has Kiwigrip over the enamel.

Except for the need to watch out for & fix scratches & dings I expect a long & trouble-free life for the hull.

It's a semi-custom Tom Colvin SAUGEEN WITCH design. Tom re-drew it for me to increase the length and he designed a new junk rig for the bigger hull.

WRT George Buehler boats, George has no clue about steel and admits it. I looked at some of his plating recommendations for one of his sailboat designs and they were ridiculously oversize for the hull size/displacement. Not necessarily a bad thing for bottom plating etc as it's all below the VCG. Topside, no.

Mind you I'm guilty of doing this at times - the long keel shoe on my hull is a 200 x 40 flat steel bar. It was cheap and adds to the ballast down there. Tom approved the change from the 25mm he'd specified.

Edit: No way I'd buy a steel hull Juna. I simply don't think it's a good choice of material for that particular hull.

FKT

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On 7/5/2018 at 1:33 AM, jgbrown said:

While I don't care for the design since I can't see any good reason for the leading edge of anything that goes through the water to be what looks like 6"+ wide and square unless it's pushing logs around,  I'd rather find something like this.  At least it's not got a whole interior to rip out to start fixing rust and still somewhat close to what I can afford. 

https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/d/37-ft-george-buehler-juna/6579284081.html

You do seem keen on a DIY project, and I take the point that it probably makes a lot more sense in your circumstances than it would for others.

If you are going to a complete rebuild, then you probably are better off starting with a new bare hull than with a rusting hulk full of crud.  But even so, fitout will cost about ten times the price of the bare hull, and you won't get much of that back on resale.  So good idea to make sure it's a design you actually like.

A thought.  You say that you'd like a single-failure repair boat but can't find one on your coast.  So why not check trucking costs from further afield? With the cost advantages you have in the repair, a long-distance buy might still make sense.

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On 5/6/2018 at 5:33 PM, jgbrown said:

While I don't care for the design since I can't see any good reason for the leading edge of anything that goes through the water to be what looks like 6"+ wide and square unless it's pushing logs around, 

Well... Husum.  Pushing logs around is what they do...

Holy crap.  Maybe there's some kind of leading edge piece that screws on...

00000_fb1N9wTkRAE_600x450.jpg

 

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52 minutes ago, toddster said:

Well... Husum.  Pushing logs around is what they do...

Holy crap.  Maybe there's some kind of leading edge piece that screws on...

It is probably not worth the hassle to create a fair leading edge unless one is a bit fanatical.  If you are, best to weld something on.

My "square leading edge" averaged about 3 inches wide.   

I could not  perceive a performance increase after adding the fairing. 

IQHAffa.jpg

 

cILHJQo.jpg

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

You do seem keen on a DIY project, and I take the point that it probably makes a lot more sense in your circumstances than it would for others.

If you are going to a complete rebuild, then you probably are better off starting with a new bare hull than with a rusting hulk full of crud.  But even so, fitout will cost about ten times the price of the bare hull, and you won't get much of that back on resale.  So good idea to make sure it's a design you actually like.

A thought.  You say that you'd like a single-failure repair boat but can't find one on your coast.  So why not check trucking costs from further afield? With the cost advantages you have in the repair, a long-distance buy might still make sense.

I'm keeping my eye out, but adding 15k$(trucking+ferry cost for one I checked out) makes it tricky, I got a couple quotes, most approx 3-4$/mile incl pilot, while the savings for me doing the work are nice, starting 15k$ behind someone local makes that difference less substantial pretty quickly. 

  Unfinished inside but with complete rig and engine would be the absolute ideal, while I'm busy dreaming, lol.   There was a cool pilothouse close to that on Anacis island, last year I think, came with a second hull still in pieces, both for about 10k$.  I'd most likely install floors and bulkheads with proper wire runs and roughed in plumbing, then just finish the galley/pilot berth and work forward from there as time permits.  Can always go sailing without a V-berth or a head, lol. 

  https://vancouver.craigslist.ca/rch/boa/d/35-jay-benford-design-mercedes/6566098916.html

is almost the right idea, but it is a little too finished to be in my price range, and looks like it wouldn't even get out of it's own way. 

 

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1 hour ago, Panope said:

It is probably not worth the hassle to create a fair leading edge unless one is a bit fanatical.  If you are, best to weld something on.

My "square leading edge" averaged about 3 inches wide.   

I could not  perceive a performance increase after adding the fairing. 

IQHAffa.jpg

 

cILHJQo.jpg

You *have* to be a masochist to go to that much trouble.

OTOH whoever built your hull did the bow the quick way with lapped plates. I just *had* to be precious and did mine with butt welds. OK it probably looks nicer but functionally no difference and a metric shitload more work.....

FKT

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On 2018-05-05 at 12:38 PM, Diarmuid said:

Yeah ... but it's a steel boat, so we'll just drag it over the reef, slap on a fresh coat of house paint, and off she goes. 

/s

Honestly, that's not a bad-looking platform. The interior should probably be power-washed with a flamethrower, but if the welds are good and the engine sound, a person who enjoys the inside stuff could turn that into a fine short-handed cruiser for colder waters. Bit silly to hire a professional surveyor for a $7500 boat, but if you know someone who knows welds & can drag them along for a look-see.... 

I’m reminded of the story of Dave and Jaja Martin (chronicled in various articles and in their book, ‘Into The Light’ - don’t worry, although the title sounds like it, it’s not a Bible-thumping book: far from it) chronicling their purchase of an older steel boat, total interior gut and refit, and multi-year cruise to northern Norway and Iceland with their three young kids.  (Wow!)

Everyone’s situation is different, of course, but depending on the state of pricey or difficult to repair gear on the boat you’re considering (engine and rig: pricey to upgrade, of course, if they’re dead; port lights: difficult to repair/replace, as I discovered replacing my ten portlights), and if you could get it for way cheaper than asking, it might be “worth” it (not financially, no boat is, of course), if you have the time...and motivation.

If he can gut and rebuild the interior of a 33’ boat in his spare time after working a day job in a boat yard, with three young kids and a wife at home, and then take off for the far North Atlantic, certainly you can too.  :-)  (From the book, I recall at the end of the refit he had to quit his job to focus full time for a few months on finishing the rebuild.)

Go for it.  Maybe.  Just be ready for a big project and adventure :-)

See:

http://iceblinksail.com/

http://sailingsimplicity.com/podcast-with-jaja-martin/

 

 

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9 hours ago, Panope said:

It is probably not worth the hassle to create a fair leading edge unless one is a bit fanatical.  If you are, best to weld something on.

My "square leading edge" averaged about 3 inches wide.   

I could not  perceive a performance increase after adding the fairing. 

IQHAffa.jpg

 

cILHJQo.jpg

On this scale, the difference between a 3" flat across the stem or leading edge, versus an ellipse or whatever, is going to be very very small. A bigger difference is in the surface finish across the forward 1/4 of the hull, or whether the fuel tank is half-full, or where the batteries are installed, or having real sails as opposed to tentmakers-apprentice sails.

Not sure why the determination to have a steel boat, but they certainly can be good in the right hands. That Benford one doesn't look bad, to me.

FB- Doug

 

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26 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

On this scale, the difference between a 3" flat across the stem or leading edge, versus an ellipse or whatever, is going to be very very small. A bigger difference is in the surface finish across the forward 1/4 of the hull, or whether the fuel tank is half-full, or where the batteries are installed, or having real sails as opposed to tentmakers-apprentice sails.

Not sure why the determination to have a steel boat, but they certainly can be good in the right hands. That Benford one doesn't look bad, to me.

FB- Doug

 

That is all true enough.

However, I recently removed over 1000 pounds of lead and wood from this boat (16,000 to 15,000) and could not measure a speed difference.  Fore and Aft trim also change by more than an inch.  I check speed by averaging 4-way (North, South, East, West) GPS numbers with a constant RPM.  

I guess weight sensitivity depends a lot on hull type.

Steve

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Steel 35 footer? could buy a gravel barge instead. That boat is going to be way too heavy, you can always tell when they dont list the displacement!

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6 hours ago, Panope said:

That is all true enough.

However, I recently removed over 1000 pounds of lead and wood from this boat (16,000 to 15,000) and could not measure a speed difference.  Fore and Aft trim also change by more than an inch.  I check speed by averaging 4-way (North, South, East, West) GPS numbers with a constant RPM.  

I guess weight sensitivity depends a lot on hull type.

Steve

True enough, although I would have thought that the difference in ballast ratio/ vertical center of gravity would be most telling in sailing performance, and fore/aft trim the most difference in steering or pointing. That's a bit over 6%, I would have thought that would make a measurable difference even if slight!

FB- Doug

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Yep, I was expecting (hoping) for at least some kind of noticeable performance gain for all my effort.  I'd be lying if I said there was any.  At least I did not give up anything.

In my above post, I should have said that I removed over 1000 pounds of CEMENT (not lead) and wood.  I guesstimate that the VCG changed little if any.

Steve 

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19 hours ago, jgbrown said:

I'm keeping my eye out, but adding 15k$(trucking+ferry cost for one I checked out) makes it tricky, I got a couple quotes, most approx 3-4$/mile incl pilot, while the savings for me doing the work are nice, starting 15k$ behind someone local makes that difference less substantial pretty quickly. 

  Unfinished inside but with complete rig and engine would be the absolute ideal, while I'm busy dreaming, lol.   There was a cool pilothouse close to that on Anacis island, last year I think, came with a second hull still in pieces, both for about 10k$.  I'd most likely install floors and bulkheads with proper wire runs and roughed in plumbing, then just finish the galley/pilot berth and work forward from there as time permits.  Can always go sailing without a V-berth or a head, lol. 

  https://vancouver.craigslist.ca/rch/boa/d/35-jay-benford-design-mercedes/6566098916.html

is almost the right idea, but it is a little too finished to be in my price range, and looks like it wouldn't even get out of it's own way. 

 

JG - this might meet your needs. I think it's the double ender that was designed by a local - Graham Shannon - when he worked for Roberts here. He later moved into yacht design software development.

Bob Perry has worked with him and seems to respect him.

https://skagit.craigslist.org/boa/d/88-bruce-roberts-sailboat/6577894124.html

https://www.google.com/search?q=coast+34&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-ab

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Good to see the OP has come to his senses. I'd suggest any future prespective buyer of an old steelie first read the story contained within the link below. It's saved many from grief over the years!

The saving of Whitebird

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35 minutes ago, toecutter said:

Good to see the OP has come to his senses. I'd suggest any future prespective buyer of an old steelie first read the story contained within the link below. It's saved many from grief over the years!

The saving of Whitebird

The author of that article didn't have a clue and relied on someone else who also obviously didn't have a clue about steel boats.

He got an expensive education.

Rule No 1: if someone has put wood over a steel deck, look no further. Walk away now. It's not going to go well.

Rule No 2: Ultrasound the hull.

FKT

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1 hour ago, toecutter said:

Good to see the OP has come to his senses. I'd suggest any future prespective buyer of an old steelie first read the story contained within the link below. It's saved many from grief over the years!

The saving of Whitebird

I've got no interest in chasing decades of rust, that just doesn't look fun, I did enjoy the read though.  Poor buggers, that must have been a very interesting time fixing that up.

 

1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

JG - this might meet your needs. I think it's the double ender that was designed by a local - Graham Shannon - when he worked for Roberts here. He later moved into yacht design software development.

Bob Perry has worked with him and seems to respect him.

https://skagit.craigslist.org/boa/d/88-bruce-roberts-sailboat/6577894124.html

https://www.google.com/search?q=coast+34&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-ab

Interesting.   I was actually going to look at another coast 34, it was a bare hull and new yanmar(but 25 years old), never launched, seemed to have some very mixed reviews.  The seller wanted 30k and didn't seem keen on offers so I left it alone.   I'll check it out, thanks, looks well equipped for the price.

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We looked through a pro-built Coast 34 a few years ago, overall impression was very substantial boat but like living in a tiny basement suite.

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18 hours ago, jgbrown said:

I've got no interest in chasing decades of rust, that just doesn't look fun, I did enjoy the read though.  Poor buggers, that must have been a very interesting time fixing that up.

Not as interesting as his next project though. He built himself a catamaran sometime later and during that event he became convinced the government as trying to kill him by releasing nerve gas or something like that upwind from him. Methinks that either he was an ex-Russian agent, or he should have worn a better respirator when playing with boat building chemicals.

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18 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

The author of that article didn't have a clue and relied on someone else who also obviously didn't have a clue about steel boats.

He got an expensive education.

Rule No 1: if someone has put wood over a steel deck, look no further. Walk away now. It's not going to go well.

Rule No 2: Ultrasound the hull.

FKT

Ding!, ding! ding! The number one reason budget DIY boat yards are filled with the abandoned carcasses of, predominantly, steel and wood boats.

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If you want to waste your money and fuck your life and your marriage, there are far more enjoyable ways than buying someone else's nightmare. Have you considered a mistress? Hookers and a coke habit maybe?

 

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30 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

If you want to waste your money and fuck your life and your marriage, there are far more enjoyable ways than buying someone else's nightmare. Have you considered a mistress? Hookers and a coke habit maybe?

 

Not married, and running a boatyard keeps me both single and broke.   Hookers and blow would probably have been more cost effective and I might have more hair left. 

 

9 hours ago, toecutter said:

Not as interesting as his next project though. He built himself a catamaran sometime later and during that event he became convinced the government as trying to kill him by releasing nerve gas or something like that upwind from him. Methinks that either he was an ex-Russian agent, or he should have worn a better respirator when playing with boat building chemicals.

Now that sounds like an interesting blog.  Was he still writing at the time?  I've noticed most fiberglass guys who disagree with respirators seem to be big conspiracy fans.  Not sure if it's cause and effect or just that both require a similar perspective on life. 

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Just launched, tons of new stuff, major upgrades/repairs, including rebuilt engine.  Now would be the time for me to sell my boat... :-)

281803D3-1A37-4545-8B25-B49CF02E4540.jpeg

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Lynnwood?

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What is your boat, looks like you did a nice job!  That's not the steel boat that was at False Creek Yacht club for a few years that got sold off cheap is it?  If so, an incredible job!

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44 minutes ago, jgbrown said:

What is your boat, looks like you did a nice job!  That's not the steel boat that was at False Creek Yacht club for a few years that got sold off cheap is it?  If so, an incredible job!

Thanks.  I’ve had it for a number of years, always in the back of my mind, “I should sell this boat and get the boat I really want for local sailing, maybe an eventual Singlehanded Transpac Race, something fast and cheap, like a Moore 24 or Olson 30...”. But I’ve also always wanted to do an offshore jaunt with family, money and time willing —and it looks like in 2-3 years it’ll finally be a real possibility - and I now know the boat inside out, having rebuilt basically rebuilt and upgraded most of it. I bought it when living on the East Coast, dreaming of a high latitude voyage to Newfoundland and Greenland (now changed to Aleutians and Bering Sea, since am on this coast!).

Nope - not the one at FCYC (although we did live aboard there about 12 years ago).  I think that was Lovesong, a weird (to me) one-off homebuilt boat with an odd open transom.  This is a Gilbert Caroff (French) design, 33’/10m, professionally yard built in Quebec.  Good boat, well thought out and built (things like stainless all around chain locker where chain rubs, etc.), and when I bought it, it was at the time of its life, like many boats, where it either gets abandoned and slowly dies, or you breathe life into it.  It seemed to fit the bill for me at the time, then us after getting married and I’ve (mostly) enjoyed the rebuild...rebuilt steering, mast, all new portlights, rebuilt engine, all new hull and deck paint, new barrier coat, rebedded deck fittings, wind generator, fridge, winch upgrade to self-tailers, ham radio...all mostly done, just a few more things, not priorities, to do...I’m tired thinking about it all...oh well :-). Once you start, you can’t stop midway, so you keep going...I’m just so glad to have it out of my front yard (last pic), where it was under a tarp structure for way too long...but was a handy, very close (and free) place to store it and do the work.  I wouldn’t do it again, but I feel like it was worth it in some weird way.  Learned tons, got the boat I want, can go anywhere with it, but small enough to have trucked to my front yard if ever needed.  But there are times when that Moore 24, or Catalina 34 calls me :-)

1EA88653-0FBE-41FE-9E96-B9CE0FC1A31A.jpeg

8242A323-28B6-4D2D-8E95-2B6A2EDA71BF.jpeg

389DE89F-6D0D-4903-AC64-7CEF1DAD68EB.jpeg

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18 hours ago, LB 15 said:

If you want to waste your money and fuck your life and your marriage, there are far more enjoyable ways than buying someone else's nightmare. Have you considered a mistress? Hookers and a coke habit maybe?

 

I tried pouring all my money into machine tools, bulldozers and books - ended up with more money and a boat as well.

I don't think I'm trying hard enough. Just can't get interested in drugs though, that was university days.

Brisbane in August-September is looking likely - I plan on spending some of your tax dollars on a tax-deductible junket before I come home & launch the new boat. Better be decent weather, it's gone to shit here ATM.

FKT

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7 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I tried pouring all my money into machine tools, bulldozers and books - ended up with more money and a boat as well.

I don't think I'm trying hard enough. Just can't get interested in drugs though, that was university days.

Brisbane in August-September is looking likely - I plan on spending some of your tax dollars on a tax-deductible junket before I come home & launch the new boat. Better be decent weather, it's gone to shit here ATM.

FKT

I just saw some horrible images on the news. I am in Adelaide at the moment and it is a beautiful day. Stay safe mate. 

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On 5/10/2018 at 3:55 PM, jgbrown said:

Not married, and running a boatyard keeps me both single and broke.   Hookers and blow would probably have been more cost effective and I might have more hair left. 

 

Now that sounds like an interesting blog.  Was he still writing at the time?  I've noticed most fiberglass guys who disagree with respirators seem to be big conspiracy fans.  Not sure if it's cause and effect or just that both require a similar perspective on life. 

It's not a blog. The guy was/is the publisher of a low budget cruising mag. If you browse through copies from around 2012 or so, he progressively reports on his chemical illness being caused by his boat building activities, then to pesticides and maybe other stuff and finally government agencies trying to kill him.

http://www.thecoastalpassage.com

 

You can start here (page 4) and move backwards and forwards through editions to get the full picture.

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On 5/10/2018 at 3:55 PM, jgbrown said:

Not married, and running a boatyard keeps me both single and broke.   Hookers and blow would probably have been more cost effective and I might have more hair left. 

 

Now that sounds like an interesting blog.  Was he still writing at the time?  I've noticed most fiberglass guys who disagree with respirators seem to be big conspiracy fans.  Not sure if it's cause and effect or just that both require a similar perspective on life. 

It's not a blog. The guy was/is the publisher of a low budget cruising mag. If you browse through copies from around 2012 or so, he progressively reports on his chemical illness being caused by his boat building activities, then to pesticides and maybe other stuff and finally government agencies trying to kill him.

http://www.thecoastalpassage.com

 

You can start here (page 4) and move backwards and forwards through editions to get the full picture.

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4 hours ago, toecutter said:

It's not a blog. The guy was/is the publisher of a low budget cruising mag. If you browse through copies from around 2012 or so, he progressively reports on his chemical illness being caused by his boat building activities, then to pesticides and maybe other stuff and finally government agencies trying to kill him.

http://www.thecoastalpassage.com

 

You can start here (page 4) and move backwards and forwards through editions to get the full picture.

Wow, now I feel kind of bad for chuckling.  Poor bugger, and poor bugger's wife having to deal with that too! 

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Scary stuff. Thanks for sharing. What actually are the health issues with epoxy exposure? 

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Sensitization. If it happens to you you have to stop using them.

It happened to John Guzzwell and he had to go back to resorcinol  for the rest of his career.

It's not toxic in the sense that it''l kill you or eat your brain.

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On 5/10/2018 at 3:57 PM, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Thanks.  I’ve had it for a number of years, always in the back of my mind, “I should sell this boat and get the boat I really want for local sailing, maybe an eventual Singlehanded Transpac Race, something fast and cheap, like a Moore 24 or Olson 30...”. But I’ve also always wanted to do an offshore jaunt with family, money and time willing —and it looks like in 2-3 years it’ll finally be a real possibility - and I now know the boat inside out, having rebuilt basically rebuilt and upgraded most of it. I bought it when living on the East Coast, dreaming of a high latitude voyage to Newfoundland and Greenland (now changed to Aleutians and Bering Sea, since am on this coast!).

Nope - not the one at FCYC (although we did live aboard there about 12 years ago).  I think that was Lovesong, a weird (to me) one-off homebuilt boat with an odd open transom.  This is a Gilbert Caroff (French) design, 33’/10m, professionally yard built in Quebec.  Good boat, well thought out and built (things like stainless all around chain locker where chain rubs, etc.), and when I bought it, it was at the time of its life, like many boats, where it either gets abandoned and slowly dies, or you breathe life into it.  It seemed to fit the bill for me at the time, then us after getting married and I’ve (mostly) enjoyed the rebuild...rebuilt steering, mast, all new portlights, rebuilt engine, all new hull and deck paint, new barrier coat, rebedded deck fittings, wind generator, fridge, winch upgrade to self-tailers, ham radio...all mostly done, just a few more things, not priorities, to do...I’m tired thinking about it all...oh well :-). Once you start, you can’t stop midway, so you keep going...I’m just so glad to have it out of my front yard (last pic), where it was under a tarp structure for way too long...but was a handy, very close (and free) place to store it and do the work.  I wouldn’t do it again, but I feel like it was worth it in some weird way.  Learned tons, got the boat I want, can go anywhere with it, but small enough to have trucked to my front yard if ever needed.  But there are times when that Moore 24, or Catalina 34 calls me :-)

1EA88653-0FBE-41FE-9E96-B9CE0FC1A31A.jpeg

8242A323-28B6-4D2D-8E95-2B6A2EDA71BF.jpeg

389DE89F-6D0D-4903-AC64-7CEF1DAD68EB.jpeg

That's a serious boat. Tell us some more and/or start another thread. I'd be great to learn a bit more. 

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