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6 minutes ago, jzk said:

You do some research.  During that period in US history, people came from around the world to make a better life for themselves.  And they did.  And they sent for their relatives.  They didn't flee.  Their lives improved dramatically.  Standard of living for the common man improved faster than at any time in history prior to that.  It worked in the US.  It worked in Sweden.  It worked in Hong Kong and only took 70 years.  Now China is doing it in just 30 years with just a little bit of capitalism.  

Before the industrial revolution, there was no "upward mobility."  Upward mobility hadn't been invented yet.  All children worked, if they didn't die before age 10.  The industrial revolution/capitalism created the middle class.

No upward mobility?  Don’t tell Alexander Hamilton, or Benjamin Franklin, or any of the many Sea Captains, merchants, farmers, etc.  but it did depend on which part of the country you were in.  

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2 minutes ago, Amati said:

No upward mobility?  Don’t tell Alexander Hamilton, or Benjamin Franklin, or any of the many Sea Captains, merchants, farmers, etc.  but it did depend on which part of the country you were in.  

When do you think the Industrial Revolution began? 

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49 minutes ago, jzk said:

You do some research.  During that period in US history, people came from around the world to make a better life for themselves.  And they did.  And they sent for their relatives.  They didn't flee.  Their lives improved dramatically.  Standard of living for the common man improved faster than at any time in history prior to that.  It worked in the US.  It worked in Sweden.  It worked in Hong Kong and only took 70 years.  Now China is doing it in just 30 years with just a little bit of capitalism.  

Before the industrial revolution, there was no "upward mobility."  Upward mobility hadn't been invented yet.  All children worked, if they didn't die before age 10.  The industrial revolution/capitalism created the middle class.

What utter rot. The industrial revolution just relocated agricultural de facto slave labor to urban factory de facto slave labor. They were still poor, had no upward mobility, and additionally were exposed to more dangerous working conditions and disease risk from crowded living conditions and poor sanitation. All so the robber barons could buy bigger mansions at which to dock their yachts. Unionization arose solely due to those appalling working conditions. So did Marx. 

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53 minutes ago, Amati said:
1 hour ago, jzk said:

You do some research.  During that period in US history, people came from around the world to make a better life for themselves.  And they did.  And they sent for their relatives.  They didn't flee.  Their lives improved dramatically.  Standard of living for the common man improved faster than at any time in history prior to that.  It worked in the US.  It worked in Sweden.  It worked in Hong Kong and only took 70 years.  Now China is doing it in just 30 years with just a little bit of capitalism.  

Before the industrial revolution, there was no "upward mobility."  Upward mobility hadn't been invented yet.  All children worked, if they didn't die before age 10.  The industrial revolution/capitalism created the middle class.

No upward mobility?  Don’t tell Alexander Hamilton, or Benjamin Franklin, or any of the many Sea Captains, merchants, farmers, etc.  but it did depend on which part of the country you were in.  

50 minutes ago, jzk said:

 

When do you think the Industrial Revolution began?  

 

When do YOU think it began?

As for no upward social mobility before the Industrial Revolution, that's a lot of hogwash. Where do you think the European aristocracy came from? Dropped from Heaven?

-DSK

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6 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

When do YOU think it began?

As for no upward social mobility before the Industrial Revolution, that's a lot of hogwash. Where do you think the European aristocracy came from? Dropped from Heaven?

-DSK

Yes...he's advocating that the wealthy were blessed by God, and the poor aren't (thus deserve to be poor). That's a particularly sociopathic theocratic elitism. 

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21 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

When do YOU think it began?

As for no upward social mobility before the Industrial Revolution, that's a lot of hogwash. Where do you think the European aristocracy came from? Dropped from Heaven?

-DSK

~1780- 1800

iirr there were some earlier experiments, but 1820 is a better mainstream acceptance date...

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40 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

As for no upward social mobility before the Industrial Revolution, that's a lot of hogwash. Where do you think the European aristocracy came from? Dropped from Heaven?

-DSK

Medieval times.    That was the first glimpse of social mobility.  Guilds creating wealthy merchants.  

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1 hour ago, Clove Hitch said:

Medieval times.    That was the first glimpse of social mobility.  Guilds creating wealthy merchants.  

Warriors?  Wealthy merchants have been around since Byzantium-  religious types can do pretty well - money changers - bandits - politicians - 

 

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2 hours ago, RKoch said:

What utter rot. The industrial revolution just relocated agricultural de facto slave labor to urban factory de facto slave labor. They were still poor, had no upward mobility, and additionally were exposed to more dangerous working conditions and disease risk from crowded living conditions and poor sanitation. All so the robber barons could buy bigger mansions at which to dock their yachts. Unionization arose solely due to those appalling working conditions. So did Marx. 

In the US, people didn't go to the factories unless they chose to go to the factories.  They could have always continued subsistence farming.  During this period, average lifespans increased.  Why do you supposed that is?

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2 hours ago, RKoch said:

Yes...he's advocating that the wealthy were blessed by God, and the poor aren't (thus deserve to be poor). That's a particularly sociopathic theocratic elitism. 

A free capitalist society offers the poor more social mobility than any other system in human history. 

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Actually one could argue that mass upward social Mobility started after the Black Death when serfs that survived realised that their   Skills represented bargaining power and they could tell their feudal overlords to stick there turnips where the sun don't shine

e

 

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6 hours ago, RKoch said:

We don't have Free Trade.  We have the free movement of Capital, but not the free movement of Labor. This results in increased short-term corporate profits, but long term loss as ever fewer consumers can afford even the cheaper products, and leaves governments to clean up the mess (pollution, worker health and retirement). 

Considering the number of jobs I've quit and gotten another immediatel  I think that''s bullshit

 

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18 minutes ago, jzk said:

A free capitalist society offers the poor more social mobility than any other system in human history. 

Yep..no security whatsoever, mobility up and down like a yo yo, no security, no garuantees 

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Couldn't MD create a seasonal crab work program for local unemployed? I'm sure there are many in the cities. Yes, Americans would need to be paid more; perhaps floating the price of crabs to what the traffic will bear. I don't think Trump is as stable a genius as I am, but that's what I'd do.

Why would a country with as many unemployed and on welfare as we do genuinely need to import workers? What we need a wall for is to stop cheating mofo employers for not hiring better-paid locals.

 

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1 minute ago, Shortforbob said:

Yep..no security whatsoever, mobility up and down like a yo yo, no security, no garuantees 

That's the American Way, babe.

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8 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Actually one could argue that mass upward social Mobility started after the Black Death when serfs that survived realised that their   Skills represented bargaining power and they could tell their feudal overlords to stick there turnips where the sun don't shine

e

 

I thought that was pretty well known. Labor surplus became labor shortage.

What was true in Europe was all the best stuff and all the land was already spoken for and you were NOT getting it if it wasn't in your family already. Coming to North America gave even the worst off white person a chance at being a landowner and thus "wealthy" beyond the dreams of their relatives back home. The Africans......well maybe not so much at first :rolleyes:

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3 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Yep..no security whatsoever, mobility up and down like a yo yo, no security, no garuantees 

You can go too far either way. An EU job for life system makes it really hard to GET that job. See youth unemployment or 0-hour contract rates in the EU.

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3 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

Couldn't MD create a seasonal crab work program for local unemployed? I'm sure there are many in the cities. Yes, Americans would need to be paid more; perhaps floating the price of crabs to what the traffic will bear. I don't think Trump is as stable a genius as I am, but that's what I'd do.

Why would a country with as many unemployed and on welfare as we do genuinely need to import workers? What we need a wall for is to stop cheating mofo employers for not hiring better-paid locals.

 

NFW are the city kids going to be picking crabs. The crabbers wives and kids won't even do it :rolleyes:

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5 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

NFW are the city kids going to be picking crabs. The crabbers wives and kids won't even do it :rolleyes:

Yeah, I know, we used to be a crab house town. All gone now but if welfare was someway linked to employment, as I have heard discussed, it might save what's left.

City kids get hungry too.

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3 hours ago, RKoch said:

Yes...he's advocating that the wealthy were blessed by God, and the poor aren't (thus deserve to be poor). That's a particularly sociopathic theocratic elitism. 

Don't give him that much credit.

He's just thick.

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57 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Yep..no security whatsoever, mobility up and down like a yo yo, no security, no garuantees 

What guarantees did you think there was in life?  If you equip yourself with desired skills you will do fine.  If you sell a desired service or product, you will do fine.

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On 5/11/2018 at 9:04 AM, jzk said:

It is true.  Just because you are stupid doesn't mean your voice should be shut down or that you are worthy of hatred.  In a free society, even stupid people like yourself can make their way and even contribute to society.

don't kid yourself. 

by a large majority of metrics, here and abroad, your ilk are the glaringly obvious laughing stocks. I personally probably consider you the most asinine fucker currently spewing your shameless shit here, much of it is actually appalling.

heck, if it were up to me, I'd punt your ass out of here just for being an irrational, smug asshole.

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Just now, 3to1 said:

don't kid yourself. 

by a large majority of metrics, here and abroad, your ilk are the glaringly obvious laughing stocks. I personally probably consider you the most asinine fucker currently spewing your shameless shit here, much of it is actually appalling.

heck, if it were up to me, I'd punt your ass out of here just for being an irrational, smug asshole.

Yes, you are probably quite a hateful person that would restrict all kinds of freedoms.  That is why we don't what stupid assholes like you ruling over other people.

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3 hours ago, Clove Hitch said:

Medieval times.    That was the first glimpse of social mobility.  Guilds creating wealthy merchants.  

To a certain extent. A mercantile class always existed, but did grow in the Middle Ages, and some became quite wealthy. They were still vassals of the Kings. As far as peasants, they had no chance at upward mobility until several plagues created an agricultural labor shortage, giving the survivors some bargaining power they didn't formerly have. 

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21 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Don't give him that much credit.

He's just thick.

Yes, the Trumpians do demonstrate a remarkable level of stupid. 

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3 hours ago, Clove Hitch said:

Medieval times.    That was the first glimpse of social mobility.  Guilds creating wealthy merchants.  

Well, prior to that if you were good with a sword you could move up by slaughtering your betters.

Might made right.

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48 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:
4 hours ago, RKoch said:

Yes...he's advocating that the wealthy were blessed by God, and the poor aren't (thus deserve to be poor). That's a particularly sociopathic theocratic elitism. 

Don't give him that much credit.

He's just thick.

He's permanently convinced that his ship will come in some day, and the Vanderbilts and Hiltons will give him a warm welcome to the billionaire club when they issue him his ascot and smoking jacket. So he's GOT to protect their interest for when it happens to him some day.

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25 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Well, prior to that if you were good with a sword you could move up by slaughtering your betters.

Might made right.

Power still comes from ... you know.

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Ultimately yeah but it won't move you from the working class to the upper class like a sword would BITD. :D

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5 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Ultimately yeah but it won't move you from the working class to the upper class like a sword would BITD. :D

Ah, those halcyon daze of yore.

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They just found another one a few days ago.

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1 hour ago, B.J. Porter said:

He's permanently convinced that his ship will come in some day, and the Vanderbilts and Hiltons will give him a warm welcome to the billionaire club when they issue him his ascot and smoking jacket. So he's GOT to protect their interest for when it happens to him some day.

Well, BJ, since we already have our Old School Crested smoking jackets, letter sweaters and ascots, I suggest we blackball the rascal.  Ha! Claim he’s St Paulie scholarship or some other fawlderawl....

Porcelian rules, don’t you know......whatever that fucking secret handshake was...

Whisky Sours at the Hasty Pudding and all the Vanderbilts and all.  Rawthah.  :lol:

......the secrets are deep and soaked in hoary mystery.......

Cupiditas, dudes.....

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31 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

They just found another one a few days ago.

Well, that queers that......

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I was thinking the gulf of Honduras.............

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