Stanno

World Sailing Vote ... Proposal M36

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Saw this last night on Facebook, where somebody noted that the WS Council has almost never followed the events recommendations of the Events Committee. I tried to go back and check whether this is correct and it does seem to be. It's going to be a long day in council before this is decided.

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Is there any such thing as a mixed team 2 person kiteboard anywhere?

[Seems there is, but mainly as a vehicle for training or middle aged men to get their [hopes] up...]

 

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2 hours ago, JimC said:

Is there any such thing as a mixed team 2 person kiteboard anywhere?

[Seems there is, but mainly as a vehicle for training or middle aged men to get their [hopes] up...]

 

richard_naked_lady_kitesurfing_necker_ed

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2 hours ago, torrid said:

richard_naked_lady_kitesurfing_necker_ed

Now, that's the kind of sailing event we really need in the Olympics.

Any other suggestions along similar lines?

 

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On 5/13/2018 at 5:06 PM, A Class Sailor said:

Saw this last night on Facebook, where somebody noted that the WS Council has almost never followed the events recommendations of the Events Committee. I tried to go back and check whether this is correct and it does seem to be. It's going to be a long day in council before this is decided.

Yep, the WS Council have gone with a different proposal, which give them the option to keep the Finn as part of a mixed gender, one person dinghy event (I've got no idea how that would work), and keep the 470 as a mixed class. Plus mixed gender kites.

The accepted proposal is for the women's class in the mixed one person dinghy to target 70kg women, which is already in the sweet spot for Laser Radial women. That makes no sense. 

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1 hour ago, redstar said:

Yep, the WS Council have gone with a different proposal, which give them the option to keep the Finn as part of a mixed gender, one person dinghy event (I've got no idea how that would work), and keep the 470 as a mixed class. Plus mixed gender kites.

The accepted proposal is for the women's class in the mixed one person dinghy to target 70kg women, which is already in the sweet spot for Laser Radial women. That makes no sense. 

When I click on the "accepted proposal" link, I see a proposal from the Romanian Sailing Federation. Is there an actual WS Council decision?

 

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Bravo to World Sailing for creating more events for "Mixed Persons."

I am not a mixed person myself but some of my best friends are mixed persons and it's about time we stopped discriminating against mixed people.

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The decision was not to make any actual decisions until November. So nothing to get hung about. The sky may not necessarily be falling.

The one definite out of all this is that the offshore race proposal has sailed off into the sunset. That, in my opinion, was both good and inevitable given its cost.

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1 hour ago, bill4 said:

When I click on the "accepted proposal" link, I see a proposal from the Romanian Sailing Federation. Is there an actual WS Council decision?

 

Yes - the World council decision is to accept the Romanian proposal. 

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31 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Bravo to World Sailing for creating more events for "Mixed Persons."

I am not a mixed person myself but some of my best friends are mixed persons and it's about time we stopped discriminating against mixed people.

Yes it's a silly title, for an as-yet vaguely defined team event. I think it's a bit early dismiss it out of hand.

New Mixed One-Person Dinghy Event - it is important that the events at the Olympic Games enable a wide range of physiques and weights to compete. Retaining the Finn dinghy would maintain the opportunities for men in the range of around 90kg plus, and give a new opportunity for women weighing around 70kg to compete.
The name of the event “Mixed One-Person Dinghy Event” is a suggestion, and may of course be changed at a later date to a name which works within the entire package of names for the ten events.
The Mixed One-Person Dinghy Event concept of a mixed team event will create a new innovative approach for dinghy sailing at the Olympic Games, and will not discriminate countries which, for social, cultural or religious reasons, may not be able to support two athletes of different gender competing in the same boat.
The Mixed One-Person Dinghy Event would offer flexible and multiple race format options.

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17 minutes ago, redstar said:

 

Yes - the World council decision is to accept the Romanian proposal. 

Not really. The decision was to defer a decision until November. http://www.sailing.org/news/86947.php#.Wvp0ZqTRWUl

 

The first recommendation was to proceed on the basis that all Equipment proposals be deferred until the 2018 Annual Conference. Following the final Event decision made by the Council at the Mid-Year meeting, the Equipment Committee will need to consider the relevant Equipment criteria and the Events Committee will have to consider the format options for the Events. This was agreed by Council and this means all Equipment decisions are deferred to the 2018 Annual Conference.

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So what would a girly Finn look like? They already tried with the Europe?

Or a totally different boat with just a combined pointscore?

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2 hours ago, dogwatch said:

will not discriminate countries which, for social, cultural or religious reasons, may not be able to support two athletes of different gender competing in the same boat.

Are you FUCKING kidding me??

If a country can't put a woman and a man in the same boat because they still live in the middle ages they should not be allowed in the Olympic games. In any sport.

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^

Just to be clear, not my words, simply copied from M22.

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1 hour ago, chuso007 said:

 

Are you FUCKING kidding me??

If a country can't put a woman and a man in the same boat because they still live in the middle ages they should not be allowed in the Olympic games. In any sport.

 Do you realise how daft that statement looks when placed next to an avatar of a pair of bouncing boobs?

Cheers,

           W.

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2 hours ago, chuso007 said:

 

Are you FUCKING kidding me??

If a country can't put a woman and a man in the same boat because they still live in the middle ages they should not be allowed in the Olympic games. In any sport.

I am going to have to work out how I feel about this. I'm all for a genital-blind dinghy fleet but maybe not for that one stated reason. When my initial feeling is reactionary it is a bit of a red flag.

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1 hour ago, WGWarburton said:

 Do you realise how daft that statement looks when placed next to an avatar of a pair of bouncing boobs?

Cheers,

           W.

Certainly not. 

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If the editorial on the front page is to be believed, the finn is in and the Europe Dinghy is back after a super long hiatus. woo....

DRC

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Erm, can't see any mention of the Europe on the FP? Lovely responsive boats anyway and you learn to duck.Europe_Dinghy.jpg

 

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It will be interesting to see the men’s 470 skippers dump their male crew for women crews to meet the requirements after 2020. We will see if the female skippers with the male crews will be competitive. There certainly will be some who are, but my thinking is the female skipper In the 470 will become a rarity. Similar to the Nacra 17. 

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I suspect you are wrong and we will see predominantly female helms with male crews. That's the optimum weight distribution. Time will tell.

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Short so they are lighter. https://www.sail-world.com/Australia/SailJuicecom-Crew-weights-in-the-Olympic-classes/38778?source=google.co.uk

Men’s and Open Olympic Classes (Top 10 in Cascais)

Laser – Average Weight: 81kg. Weight Range: 78 – 84kg
Finn – Average Weight: 100kg. Weight Range: 94 – 110kg
RS-X - Average Weight: 73kg. Weight Range: 68 – 79kg
49er Helm - Average Weight: 71kg. Weight Range: 68 – 77kg
49er Crew - Average Weight: 77kg. Weight Range: 72 – 80kg
470 Helm - Average Weight: 65kg. Weight Range: 60 – 67kg
470 Crew - Average Weight: 71kg. Weight Range: 65 – 75kg
Tornado Helm - Average Weight: 73kg. Weight Range: 69 – 79kg
Tornado Crew - Average Weight: 76kg. Weight Range: 71 – 79kg
Star Helm - Average Weight: 94kg. Weight Range: 80 – 110kg
Star Crew - Average Weight: 102kg. Weight Range: 90 – 115kg

Women’s Olympic Classes (Top 10 in Cascais)

Laser Radial - Average Weight: 66kg. Weight Range: 58 – 70kg
RS-X - Average Weight: 57kg. Weight Range: 52 – 62kg
470 Helm - Average Weight: 57kg. Weight Range: 49 – 65kg
470 Crew - Average Weight: 67kg. Weight Range: 61 – 70kg
Yngling Helm - Average Weight: 67kg. Weight Range: 60 – 79kg
Yngling Middle - Average Weight: 67kg. Weight Range: 55 – 74kg
Yngling Crew - Average Weight: 66kg. Weight Range: 60 – 82kg

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Way back in the day when I sailed 470s, it was always effective to put the small person on the helm and the bigger person on the wire.  However, the bigger person shouldn't be too big as the 470 is basically a boat for lightweights.

Also, at the club level it was very effective to put the more experienced person on the wire.  The skipper needed to keep their head in the boat while the crew watched for traffic and called tactics.  I'm sure the situation is very different for Olympic-level sailing.

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11 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Short so they are lighter. https://www.sail-world.com/Australia/SailJuicecom-Crew-weights-in-the-Olympic-classes/38778?source=google.co.uk

Men’s and Open Olympic Classes (Top 10 in Cascais)

Laser – Average Weight: 81kg. Weight Range: 78 – 84kg
Finn – Average Weight: 100kg. Weight Range: 94 – 110kg
RS-X - Average Weight: 73kg. Weight Range: 68 – 79kg
49er Helm - Average Weight: 71kg. Weight Range: 68 – 77kg
49er Crew - Average Weight: 77kg. Weight Range: 72 – 80kg
470 Helm - Average Weight: 65kg. Weight Range: 60 – 67kg
470 Crew - Average Weight: 71kg. Weight Range: 65 – 75kg
Tornado Helm - Average Weight: 73kg. Weight Range: 69 – 79kg
Tornado Crew - Average Weight: 76kg. Weight Range: 71 – 79kg
Star Helm - Average Weight: 94kg. Weight Range: 80 – 110kg
Star Crew - Average Weight: 102kg. Weight Range: 90 – 115kg

Women’s Olympic Classes (Top 10 in Cascais)

Laser Radial - Average Weight: 66kg. Weight Range: 58 – 70kg
RS-X - Average Weight: 57kg. Weight Range: 52 – 62kg
470 Helm - Average Weight: 57kg. Weight Range: 49 – 65kg
470 Crew - Average Weight: 67kg. Weight Range: 61 – 70kg
Yngling Helm - Average Weight: 67kg. Weight Range: 60 – 79kg
Yngling Middle - Average Weight: 67kg. Weight Range: 55 – 74kg
Yngling Crew - Average Weight: 66kg. Weight Range: 60 – 82kg

Any weight data that is close to current available? These weights are from ? 2004?

 

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Do you think the weight distribution will change much over a couple quads?

looks like enough of an overlap that sailing talent would be more important.

so look at the top current British 470 men’s and women’s teams. I believe the skippers are both medalists. They are both highly ranked in the class currently. So if they swapped crews who would win? Would the size of skipper/ crew be relevant to who is more competitive? 

It will be interesting to see, but I think I already know the answer. 

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15 hours ago, bait said:

Do you think the weight distribution will change much over a couple quads?

looks like enough of an overlap that sailing talent would be more important.

so look at the top current British 470 men’s and women’s teams. I believe the skippers are both medalists. They are both highly ranked in the class currently. So if they swapped crews who would win? Would the size of skipper/ crew be relevant to who is more competitive? 

It will be interesting to see, but I think I already know the answer. 

I definitely think switching from the 470 to other classes with different competitive weight ranges will affect who will actually go to the Olympics.  In the case of 470 women, I think the competitive weight range coincides with that of fit athletes.  For the 470 men, I think the competitive weight range is a little light.

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On 5/15/2018 at 6:23 PM, bait said:

It will be interesting to see the men’s 470 skippers dump their male crew for women crews to meet the requirements after 2020. We will see if the female skippers with the male crews will be competitive. There certainly will be some who are, but my thinking is the female skipper In the 470 will become a rarity. Similar to the Nacra 17. 

Only one trap means it ain't similar at all.  

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There will be plenty of opinions on this and it will be fun to watch how it shakes out. On a basic level it would seem only rational for a small female skipper and larger male crew that fits into the optimal weight  range of the class to be most competitive. At the end of the day right now it is the same boat and the optimal sizes have always been the same for both men and women. I believe a top ranked male skipper such as Belcher with a good female crew would still be dominant in the mixed class. But put his crew Ryan with the top female skipper and they could not beat Belcher. The perceived  crew size difference does not overcompensate for the talent.

I do fully agree the men are working hard to keep weight off to stay in the optimal weight range while the female teams are are on the large size of the female population- albeit extremely fit. I really think the overall disparity in weights between the two gender classes is smaller than people would think. Just walk around the boat park in Miami at the World Cup event and you would be very impressed with the female teams from Europe. Here in the US there are no active women 470 sailors to compare against our one and only active men’s 470 team so most of our US based opinionated population here on this site have nothing to go on but what they believe to be common sense. I get it! But there is more to it than just physics.

 So let everything come together after 2020 then we will revisit this topic prior to 2024 and everyone can then blast me for the idiot you believe I am. Until then I am sticking with my opinion. 

 

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6 hours ago, bait said:

At the end of the day right now it is the same boat and the optimal sizes have always been the same for both men and women.

But they haven't. They've always been different for men and womens fleets. Reason is that in a weight sensitive boat that's scored on finishing places  its better to be on the fleet average (mode, not mean if you want to be picky) than it is to be some optimal weight. Seems counter intuitive,  but if you sit down with a scoring program and model a series where weight is the only differentiator you'll find that's how it pans out.

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Well stated if weight was the only differentiator. While there are currently two gender specific fleets there are certainly two fleet averages. When it changes to mixed crew the difference in this averages then becomes much smaller as you are looking at the difference in the gender role of each crew. There will inevitably be a group of male skippers w/ female crews and female skippers / male crews. Also the optimal weight is generally stated as a range as atmospheric conditions and sea state change for various competitions making lighter or heavier teams more effective in their optimal conditions. 

My point has always been that sailing talent will ultimately bring the best team to the top regardless of the gender role. My opinion is it is more likely to be a male skipper/ female crew. 

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On ‎5‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 4:05 AM, dogwatch said:

^

Just to be clear, not my words, simply copied from M22.

This really is fucked up.

"New Mixed One-Person Dinghy Event / Retain Equipment and New Equipment – this event proposal renames the current “Heavyweight Men’s One Person Dinghy” to “Mixed One-Person Dinghy.. The Finn would be retained for the men’s equipment and new equipment would be selected for the women’s event that suits women of around 70kg.*

 
* This will be changed. The Equipment Committee will define the criteria to decide the equipment in November 2018, with the intention to have a one-person women’s boat to suit a different physique."
 

So - if the Finn is one boat, and another boat is being chosen for heavy-weight women, my math tells me that is a total of two boats. How the hell is this one Event? A handicap fleet in the Olympics would be novel. I even tried reading M-22 with a Romanian accent and still couldn't get it to make sense.

This is what the "best of the best" in our sport's governing body could come up with.  How comforting.

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Some good analysis here: https://www.sail-world.com/news/205315/Top-skippers-speak-out-in-vain-on-2024-options

Matt Allen said. "We have had some discussions regarding the media aspects. I would like the author of the submission to explain as to how we are going to deal with two different boats on two different courses." that in the article comes from a delegate question asked before the vote, so it seems that the event is has been envisaged as two separate fleets, in two separate boats with scores combined. 
 
"The fact remains that the Mixed One-Person Dinghy event is a complete nonsense in practice, and is too much of a crapshoot to attract serious Olympic campaigns." Richard Gladwell, author of linked article. 
 
From the sounds of things it does seem the Finns shoehorned themselves in there, to save the classes Olympic spot, without much thought of what a 'crapshoot' the event would be. Don't get me wrong, I like the finn, but it seems they voted/lobbied for retaining the finn in the olympics at all costs, rather than retaining a specific event for heavyweight males. 
 
Interesting from Ian Walker in the comments below the article:
"isn't one problem that the class associations have too much power and can influence the voting for their own benefit rather than the bigger picture or what is best for sailing and sailors as a whole in the long run? ... if we do not come up with a viable solution to what mixed singlehanded means I fear Council may have just voted for 9 medals instead of 10." 

 

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2 hours ago, bill4 said:

So - if the Finn is one boat, and another boat is being chosen for heavy-weight women, my math tells me that is a total of two boats. How the hell is this one Event?

People seems to be guessing some kind of team event like a relay?

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46 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

People seems to be guessing some kind of team event like a relay?

Or two totally separate series of races where the combined scores are used to determine the winning "team"?

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How many medals... is the key question!   if they offer one gold for the winning male / female team from Country X....  That will break new ground in sports psychology.     I am hard pressed to find ANY notion of the concept of team... when you sail different boats on two different courses..   What is the psychology that has you deal with  you winning every finn race and your team mate craters  on her europe and your combined score is 4th for country X.

The biggest mistake world sailing has ever made was creating mixed for multihull.   They sold out  the integrity of competition to appease a variety of factions..     Remember... Multihull was an OPEN competition before this country club compromise of integrity was agreed to.

The multihull community was DESPERATE to get back in the olympics and argued to us skeptics  that mixed was a necessary step towards Mens and Woman's Multihull.....   pray tell.... what country put forth a proposal that had men's and woman's multihull for the upcoming quad... or now the next one.

Set aside the politics...   go with boards (kite powered) Single handers dinghy, Single hander multi, double hander sloops  double hander skiffs.    Equipment is chosen to give you the full weight range of sailors.

 

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12 hours ago, Tcatman said:

How many medals... is the key question!   if they offer one gold for the winning male / female team from Country X....  That will break new ground in sports psychology.     I am hard pressed to find ANY notion of the concept of team... when you sail different boats on two different courses..   What is the psychology that has you deal with  you winning every finn race and your team mate craters  on her europe and your combined score is 4th for country X.

The biggest mistake world sailing has ever made was creating mixed for multihull.   They sold out  the integrity of competition to appease a variety of factions..     Remember... Multihull was an OPEN competition before this country club compromise of integrity was agreed to.

The multihull community was DESPERATE to get back in the olympics and argued to us skeptics  that mixed was a necessary step towards Mens and Woman's Multihull.....   pray tell.... what country put forth a proposal that had men's and woman's multihull for the upcoming quad... or now the next one.

Set aside the politics...   go with boards (kite powered) Single handers dinghy, Single hander multi, double hander sloops  double hander skiffs.    Equipment is chosen to give you the full weight range of sailors.

 

I am assuming that both the male and the female in the "team" who win the mixed one person dinghy event will get gold medals.

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Almost certainly. Helm and crew both get medals, same thing.

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The extent of the sky falling headless chickening on this amazes me... Its only a damn format change for the games, its not even going to affect the average sailor...

It comes over loud and clear (and little else does) from the IOC documentation that they wanted more mixed events. So, this is what they wanted. yes, its a new format to sailing, but so were all male events, all female events and compulsory mixed events. We never had those before and largely still don't out of the games. If you look round sport in general there are a good number of events where separate individual performances add up to a combined score, both with the same individual in different formats, different individuals in the same format and even different individuals in different formats (swimming medley relay for an example of the last). Its not as if this is totally out on a limb and utterly different from anything else out there. 

As for some of the more extreme comments, I suppose they might schedule starts on two different courses, but bearing in mind all Olympic racing shares courses at the moment its really pretty unlikely isn't it!  I would hope that over the next few months a whole bunch of varied formats get tried out to see what works. A relay might be fun, combined corrected times rather than points scores would give the opportunity for a really stellar performance by one half of the team to make up for a lack luster one by the other, points for the team could be added up before or after discards are applied...

Then do we race them off the same start, different starts or what. What about tactics? If both boats are on the same course are both members of one team allowed to combine together to sail a boat from the other team right to the back of the fleet?  In which case does the other boat come back to help? 

To be honest I doubt if the average IOC member can really tell the difference between a 470 and a 49er or even cares... Big changes in event format rather than equipment may well be what they've been agitating for. Who knows: I'm not a party to those smoke filled rooms. But for small nations I bet a change in format is a lot more palatable than throwing out all the boats and starting again.

But calm down dears, its only the Olympics. It doesn't affect most of us!

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1 hour ago, JimC said:

The extent of the sky falling headless chickening on this amazes me... Its only a damn format change for the games, its not even going to affect the average sailor...

It comes over loud and clear (and little else does) from the IOC documentation that they wanted more mixed events. So, this is what they wanted. yes, its a new format to sailing, but so were all male events, all female events and compulsory mixed events. We never had those before and largely still don't out of the games. If you look round sport in general there are a good number of events where separate individual performances add up to a combined score, both with the same individual in different formats, different individuals in the same format and even different individuals in different formats (swimming medley relay for an example of the last). Its not as if this is totally out on a limb and utterly different from anything else out there. 

As for some of the more extreme comments, I suppose they might schedule starts on two different courses, but bearing in mind all Olympic racing shares courses at the moment its really pretty unlikely isn't it!  I would hope that over the next few months a whole bunch of varied formats get tried out to see what works. A relay might be fun, combined corrected times rather than points scores would give the opportunity for a really stellar performance by one half of the team to make up for a lack luster one by the other, points for the team could be added up before or after discards are applied...

Then do we race them off the same start, different starts or what. What about tactics? If both boats are on the same course are both members of one team allowed to combine together to sail a boat from the other team right to the back of the fleet?  In which case does the other boat come back to help? 

To be honest I doubt if the average IOC member can really tell the difference between a 470 and a 49er or even cares... Big changes in event format rather than equipment may well be what they've been agitating for. Who knows: I'm not a party to those smoke filled rooms. But for small nations I bet a change in format is a lot more palatable than throwing out all the boats and starting again.

But calm down dears, its only the Olympics. It doesn't affect most of us!

I agree, It doesn't affect most of us.

But some kind of male/female team in different boats might be a fun thing to try as a special annual event at local sailing clubs.  

Male in Laser and female in Sunfish for example at typical American sailing clubs. God knows there are enough boats of both classes sitting around in dinghy parks that are hardly ever sailed. And anything that encourages more female participation in club racing is a good thing.

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The mixed one person dinghy could be handled similar to Scholastic sailing in the US. With one gender sailing the A side and the other gender sailing the B side. It is not uncommon to have the A and B sides in Scholastic sailing sail different boats so that should not matter. And they could sail the same course.

Then combine the scores and award medals. Like in Scholastic sailing both sides need to hold up their end of the scores to make it work. If the women’s side is killing it and the men’s side is hopeless then they did not put together a very good team! 

Maybe even allow substitutes so a team effect comes into play. There can be two skippers for each gender. A heavy and a light. Teams can decide who to put in for what race.

 

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The concept of team is founded on the REQUIREMENT for team work.... Not just summing up two independent scores and calling that a team result.   WHAT is the psychology and principles of team work in this new format in any configuration you can imagine?

Making the case that Olympic sailing is relevant to the rank and file sailor is more difficult when the event is a made for tv reality show.   (now maybe they think they can market a reality show world wide).

the olympic nay sayers  are not persuaded that the Competition Value  (in ANY class of dinghy) overcomes their numerous unrelated bitches about the establishment, class politics and so... I can't see how this solution helps matters...  (boards (kites), single handed dinghy, single handed multi, sloops, skiffs with Male/Female fleets represents the spectrum of small boat racing AND has the integrity of competition.    Of course , in the real world... we compete in mostly OPEN competitions but at the elite level... male and female events are reasonable.

Come on JimC

Quote

So, this is what they wanted. yes, its a new format to sailing, but so were all male events, all female events and compulsory mixed events. We never had those before and largely still don't out of the games. If you look round sport in general there are a good number of events where separate individual performances add up to a combined score, both with the same individual in different formats, different individuals in the same format and even different individuals in different formats (swimming medley relay for an example of the last). Its not as if this is totally out on a limb and utterly different from anything else out there. 

Yes it is totally different...   Combining individual Olympic sports into  a national team event... eg a swimming relay presuposes that those athletes compete for themselves through individual qualifying rounds.  The team events follow the individual event.

4 years of training... that totally depends on an independent result  that you have no impact on!... Who would do that?..

If they took the Laser fleets and made a team event.... OK...  the national team could decide that on heat 3... they swap in their number 2 sailor to give number 1 a break and let them compete for their individual medal... OK... BUT!   you train for the shot at your individual medal and the team events are phase two of your olympic games.

The olympics is about individual  efforts...   but OK... the IOC wants mixed (after years of watching sailing capitulate to parochial interests with agendas. trumping the integrity of competition) ....  The only way this makes sense is to team race with two person /two class of boat teams in fleet racing.   I don't know enough about team racing to opine if this will be a good game.   I can't imagine finding a compliment to the finn for woman that is matched in performance for the woman... so... it will be a really novel game.   (Hey... maybe they give everyone wireless headsets and we get to listen in on each teams tactics)    

So, its not the end of the world for anyone... just not seeing how it helps small boat sailing with the rank and file sailor and I don't see how it helps the universe of Olympic sailing athletes.   at best... another missed opportunity

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25 minutes ago, Dex Sawash said:

Mixed pairs in skating could skate apart too. 

 

/shitpost

ah... screw it... just go with pairs!   some may want them to skate apart! (he he)

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A relay could be interesting. Committee boat with a start line on one side and a finish line on the other. Simple windward leeward. As the male in the Finn finishes, the female in her Aero 7 (E.G.) starts. She can't cross the start line until her team mate finishes. If a few men are finishing at once, the  women have to jockey for position at the same time as being wary of when she can start. The men then wait for the women to finish and they start the second leg in the same manner. Repeat so that each team member starts and finishes twice. 10 races one throw out. Maybe different leg lengths for the men and women. 

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1 hour ago, bill4 said:

A relay could be interesting. Committee boat with a start line on one side and a finish line on the other. Simple windward leeward. As the male in the Finn finishes, the female in her Aero 7 (E.G.) starts. She can't cross the start line until her team mate finishes. If a few men are finishing at once, the  women have to jockey for position at the same time as being wary of when she can start. The men then wait for the women to finish and they start the second leg in the same manner. Repeat so that each team member starts and finishes twice. 10 races one throw out. Maybe different leg lengths for the men and women. 

Plus, making this up as I go, all boats are timed, so every boat length makes a difference. The male could take the lead with a 20 second advantage, but the female could make up that 20 seconds without having to actually pass her competitor.

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15 minutes ago, bill4 said:

Plus, making this up as I go, all boats are timed, so every boat length makes a difference. The male could take the lead with a 20 second advantage, but the female could make up that 20 seconds without having to actually pass her competitor.

No, that doesn't work... But I think you get my drift on why time the boats. 

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17 hours ago, tillerman said:

I am assuming that both the male and the female in the "team" who win the mixed one person dinghy event will get gold medals.

I agree.... so the best finn sailor in the world.... ever....  would not get a medal if his country can't produce a female XXX sailor in the top 10....   hmm....   gonna need a really really good sports psychologist to keep this guy from murder!

Where is the team work component in this game?

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This whole mixed one person thing only seems to make sense if it was done as the only way to keep the Finn in the Olympics and still keep the bureaucrats (with their gender quotas and preference for "mixed" events) happy.

 

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24 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Plenty of other sports have relay events.

Yes,  but After the individual events are held.   The amount of teamwork needed for a swimming relay is what exactly?   I will give you track requires team work to hand the baton off...   ...   so... Toss baton in boat...... what do you figure..   3 weeks to get that right?

I am open to suggestions on how this construct of mixed heavyweight singlehanders utilizes "teamwork"

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I think the time to shoot holes in the event is when the details have been put forward. Which, so far, they have not been,

Not the SA way, I know.

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6 minutes ago, tillerman said:

This whole mixed one person thing only seems to make sense if it was done as the only way to keep the Finn in the Olympics and still keep the bureaucrats (with their gender quotas and preference for "mixed" events) happy.

 

Umm  .... how about the entire world of woman sailing athletes insisting on gender equity.      Quota is an ugly word in sport.  Do you really want to imply that woman  (and all of us) should accept anything less and slur them with the tag quota participants?

As for mixed.... perhaps the IOC understands the politics that keeps world sailing with 10 events from parsing the game equitably.

As for the finn.... yes.... a truly sacred cow.

Now...the politics of the past are ugly and hardly honorable... so....I get the cynicism....

 

 

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6 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

I think the time to shoot holes in the event is when the details have been put forward. Which, so far, they have not been,

Not the SA way, I know.

Hey....   throw me a life line here.... WHAT mixed singlehanded TEAM competition format on two different classes of boats can you invent that makes a bit of sense....   perhaps my imagination is too limited... but I can't see it.    (If all you have is a relay race with a baton hand off..... I would report that the emperor has no clothes...  now YMMV)

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24 minutes ago, Tcatman said:

Umm  .... how about the entire world of woman sailing athletes insisting on gender equity.      Quota is an ugly word in sport.  Do you really want to imply that woman  (and all of us) should accept anything less and slur them with the tag quota participants?

As for mixed.... perhaps the IOC understands the politics that keeps world sailing with 10 events from parsing the game equitably.

As for the finn.... yes.... a truly sacred cow.

Now...the politics of the past are ugly and hardly honorable... so....I get the cynicism....

I am all for gender equity in sailing. To me that means that just as many women as men take part in all kinds of sailing at all levels - which is sadly not the case generally today. To be critical of my own class for a moment, look at the recent RS Aero North Americans in Galveston. Only one woman entered and she didn't sail. And this in a boat which because of the three different rig sizes should have a strong appeal to women.

Will having as many women in the Olympics as men be of some help in moving to gender equity at all levels of the sport? Probably.

But why do the Olympics have this obsession with "mixed" events? Gender equity is just as easily achieved by having five events for women and five events for men. I am sure there must be a good reason but I am not getting it.

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13 minutes ago, tillerman said:

But why do the Olympics have this obsession with "mixed" events? 

No idea why the current version of the IOC is so keen on mixed events when not too many years ago they were very anti. One thing though, saying to the IOC "your requirements are BS and we're going to ignore them" might not end well.

 

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12 minutes ago, JimC said:

No idea why the current version of the IOC is so keen on mixed events when not too many years ago they were very anti. One thing though, saying to the IOC "your requirements are BS and we're going to ignore them" might not end well.

 

I suppose creating mixed events does mean that you can achieve gender equity without switching more events from men only to women only.

And it also has the advantage of communicating to the world that "here is a sport where men and women can play together." But the mixed one person dinghy is clearly not as "together" as mixed doubles badminton, for example.

 

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All smoke and mirrors really. A wishy washy mixture of making sailing establishemnt happy by keeping as many old classes as possible, making IOC happy with magic gender equity quota, and also bringing in kites while retaining boards, all while staying at 10 events. Only the positions of the 49er x 2 and 470 x 1 seem stable and secure. The Nacra got radical changes after the last games, the RSX and Laser are in legal limbo, all the other equipment are all subject to "trials", even though the Finn keeps getting named in context of mixed singlehander?

In the process they are needing to invent new types of boat racing which no one has seen before, a bit like the America's Cup boats. All in the interest of attracting TV coverage, which seems to need something that the public have never heard of and which they think is impossible. I am sure there will be some pretty weird options put on the table for the next round of discussions, probably end up like nothing yet imagined here.

Hope the pro sailors get enough time to work out what the new games have become and how they will need to addapt. Not sure the general sailing community will stay interested if the events get any more removed from what most of us do.

Not sure either that it will keep the IOC happy. But at least WS has left everything vague enough to step in any direction they think IOC will desire. Its a long way from being settled.

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16 minutes ago, tillerman said:

I suppose creating mixed events does mean that you can achieve gender equity without switching more events from men only to women only.

And it also has the advantage of communicating to the world that "here is a sport where men and women can play together." But the mixed one person dinghy is clearly not as "together" as mixed doubles badminton, for example.

 

Indeed. Spot on.   Mixed one person is a way of keeping the Finn in the Games and balancing it's presence with a corresponding women's boat to suit a different build than the Radial. The target weight set out in M36 doesn't meet this but that can change- it's a proposal, not a mandate.

 Assuming that a credible format can be achieved for the event, I wonder if the substantial physique difference between the big guys in the Finn and the small women in the FOLFD will be an issue. It might make more sense (in the longer term?) to have the Laser & Radial as a combined event and have the Finn & FOLFD as separate events.

 What's the competitive weight range for the Aero-5?   Is it very dynamic to sail (ie rewards a very high fitness level) for the strongest helms?

Cheers,

             W.

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Aero 5, around 60 kgs at a guess. There are heavier people sailing them but if the competition is very fit then lighter would be faster. Very dynamic to sail, yes if you watch one sailed well in waves the helms are working very hard. One of those boats that is easy to sail but hard to sail well.

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2 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Aero 5, around 60 kgs at a guess. There are heavier people sailing them but if the competition is very fit then lighter would be faster. Very dynamic to sail, yes if you watch one sailed well in waves the helms are working very hard. One of those boats that is easy to sail but hard to sail well.

Hmm, 60Kgs sounds a bit high. Suspect the target weight for the new boat will be lower. Same issue (and many others) with the L4.7, where optimal weight is somewhere around 55-65 or more. I had thought the Cii was likely but with a 6.8sqm sail and similar 55-65 Kg range(?) the same applies...  Would perhaps seem odd to have a modern lightweight dinghy for 50Kg women teaming up with a 75 year old design for 95Kg men. If the proposed slate sticks, then in the long term a structure with Lasers (std+rad) for Mixed and Finn+FOLFD  with separate events would look more sensible to my ageing eyes...

Cheers,

                 W.

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You may be right but I reckon that the Aero 5 sailors in my club are mostly 60-65kg. 

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16 hours ago, dogwatch said:

You may be right but I reckon that the Aero 5 sailors in my club are mostly 60-65kg. 

Apologies, I wasn't clear: I meant that 60Kg was too high a weight for the FOLFD, not that I thought you were wrong!

 Cheers,

            W.

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Call it whatever you like.

At least someone bothered to ring me up and get my side before spreading fake news.

Timelines just don't add up.

Sizes just don't add up.

= Bullshit or fake news!   Take your pick!

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Understood. I just didn't see a full blown tender in the works. I thought they were just going to be looking into the Laser trade shenanigans - at least initially.

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The timescales are pretty tight for '24: there's an argument that it's already too late in the day to be moving the goalposts.

 If the outcome of the Laser trade shenanigans is that new equipment is needed, the selection process needs to be underway or there will be a mess... so it looks sensible to publish the criteria. It also lets Laser know that there's a process for an alternative and frames their response to align with other tenders, mitigating the risk that they claim bias.

 I'm not seeing any specific targets for sailor size in the spec- just a weighting factor that penalises a boat with a limited competitive weight/height range.  There is a specific target for racing to be possible in winds under 5Kt and over 25Kt, which would be difficult to meet for a more extreme design.

 Will be interesting to see what's in the mixed single-person version...

Cheers,

                W.

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With a certain amount of experience in EU tender requirements, which this strongly resembles, I can tell you that the devil is in the detail. In particular the tender scoring. Typically with the things I've been involved with there's a score sheet, and each tender is given points on each item. Then all those numbers are added up and stuffed in a formula - and you can see those in one of the documents - and it spits out a number at the end, and best number wins. So if somewhere deep in the scoring is something like "Is it an International Laser (50 points)" then that can significantly impact the result. I see signs, however, that ISAF/WS think they are being looked at pretty closely for this tender process,  and that they reckon something that unduly favours the incumbent will be jumped on. 

 

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Template for submissions (limited number of entities entitled to submit) to the meeting in November has been published. Looking for input on Criteria for the event rather than on the class/boat. These need to be in by August. Seems there will be a trials phase, where competing boats can be compared against the points to be agreed below at that meeting.

As predicted, this diverges from the accepted proposal (M22-18), which mooted retaining the Finn (without re-evaluation) and included a (strange) suggestion that the women's boat should suit a 70Kg sailor.

 There's a very similar template for the mixed double-hander event, which was also proposed to be retained (470). Would that be changed, I wonder? There's a huge international investment in the 470 class at the moment and kids sailing mixed crews in 420s on the pathway... would there be enough benefit to adopting another design to warrant the upheaval?

Equipment Criteria for Mixed One-Person Dinghy:

Boat concept: Foiling / Displacement (Non-Foiling) [delete the non-desired option]

Same hull for Men and Women with different rig concept: Yes / No [delete the non-desired option]

Single mast and sail: Yes / No (Multiple sails) [delete the non-desired option]

Sail size for Men: XX-XX m2.

Sail size for Women: XX-XX m2.

Suitable wind range for competition: XX-XX knots.

Athlete weight range for Men: XX-XX kg.

Athlete weight range for Women: XX-XX kg.

Builder / Class structure: Manufacturer controlled One Design / Measurement controlled Monotype / Registered Production Monotype [delete the non-desired option]

Format proposal: Please, describe in detail the suitable formats for the proposed equipment criteria.

Other Equipment considerations: Please, describe in detail.

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The shortlist for evaluation has been published for the men's & women's single handers. This is for the "Laser" event,  not the new combined one described above.

 Laser, Aero, Melges 14 and Devoti d-zero.

 The Melges and Devoti look like outsiders to me... are there enough of them around the world for the submissions to be strong? 

Kim Anderson was at the Laser 4.7 Worlds yesterday (mainly to visit Gdynia, I heard) and reported to be very interested to see the 4.7s in action. Conditions there have not been wonderful so far but there's been some good racing.  Lots of very good sailors in a very big fleet (280 boys from 42 countries,  158 girls from 35).

 Hoping the event continues to go well. The boat may not be perfect but the numbers are hard to argue against. 

Cheers , 

                W.

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Yeah I agree that the numbers are good but what were the other invited classes? What's the competition? It's a bit like the American world series baseball, the best players play and they talk about who's playing but they only play in that competition because any other competition is run out of town.

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12 minutes ago, Jethrow said:

Yeah I agree that the numbers are good but what were the other invited classes? What's the competition? It's a bit like the American world series baseball, the best players play and they talk about who's playing but they only play in that competition because any other competition is run out of town.

 The process is published... I think it's an open invitation.  What other classes/builders would you hope to see? The invitation to tender was linked upthread, I'm not seeing anything there that arbitrarily excludes other classes.

 Is there a more accessible and testing single-hander that should be on the short list?

Cheers, 

               W.

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No I don't think that's what I'm trying to say.

I've been around sailing for a long time (50 years?) but for the juniors, you either play the ISAF/ WS game or you go elsewhere. I don't have any kids so I'm not pushing some agenda or anything but I don't think you can say "Look at all the kids sailing X class" when that is the only option available to them to progress through the ranks.

Here in Australia we had some fabulous junior classes back in the day and they produced some really great sailors but also trained the kiddies to go further and sail into their later years. Then the Opti was promoted as the ONLY class to sail to go to the Olympics and it killed the other classes but also killed the non Olympic aspirants that just liked sailing and would move into other dinghies or their local yacht club fleets (it's getting a bit better now).

My own club is very proud of the numbers of kids in their Opti program and they are having some really good success but for the hundred kids sailing in the opti fleet, how many are still around 5 years down the track. 10%, 5% maybe even less.

I just find it sad...

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Up our way (Lake Mac - Southern end) at Mannering Park they have Bics which seem to be great fun for the kids.  They've also got a couple of Flying Ants which seem fun too and the kids go out in them in any wind.

I think that's what will keep them sailing for longer.

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