Stanno

World Sailing Vote ... Proposal M36

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Saw this last night on Facebook, where somebody noted that the WS Council has almost never followed the events recommendations of the Events Committee. I tried to go back and check whether this is correct and it does seem to be. It's going to be a long day in council before this is decided.

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Is there any such thing as a mixed team 2 person kiteboard anywhere?

[Seems there is, but mainly as a vehicle for training or middle aged men to get their [hopes] up...]

 

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2 hours ago, JimC said:

Is there any such thing as a mixed team 2 person kiteboard anywhere?

[Seems there is, but mainly as a vehicle for training or middle aged men to get their [hopes] up...]

 

richard_naked_lady_kitesurfing_necker_ed

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2 hours ago, torrid said:

richard_naked_lady_kitesurfing_necker_ed

Now, that's the kind of sailing event we really need in the Olympics.

Any other suggestions along similar lines?

 

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On 5/13/2018 at 5:06 PM, A Class Sailor said:

Saw this last night on Facebook, where somebody noted that the WS Council has almost never followed the events recommendations of the Events Committee. I tried to go back and check whether this is correct and it does seem to be. It's going to be a long day in council before this is decided.

Yep, the WS Council have gone with a different proposal, which give them the option to keep the Finn as part of a mixed gender, one person dinghy event (I've got no idea how that would work), and keep the 470 as a mixed class. Plus mixed gender kites.

The accepted proposal is for the women's class in the mixed one person dinghy to target 70kg women, which is already in the sweet spot for Laser Radial women. That makes no sense. 

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1 hour ago, redstar said:

Yep, the WS Council have gone with a different proposal, which give them the option to keep the Finn as part of a mixed gender, one person dinghy event (I've got no idea how that would work), and keep the 470 as a mixed class. Plus mixed gender kites.

The accepted proposal is for the women's class in the mixed one person dinghy to target 70kg women, which is already in the sweet spot for Laser Radial women. That makes no sense. 

When I click on the "accepted proposal" link, I see a proposal from the Romanian Sailing Federation. Is there an actual WS Council decision?

 

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Bravo to World Sailing for creating more events for "Mixed Persons."

I am not a mixed person myself but some of my best friends are mixed persons and it's about time we stopped discriminating against mixed people.

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The decision was not to make any actual decisions until November. So nothing to get hung about. The sky may not necessarily be falling.

The one definite out of all this is that the offshore race proposal has sailed off into the sunset. That, in my opinion, was both good and inevitable given its cost.

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1 hour ago, bill4 said:

When I click on the "accepted proposal" link, I see a proposal from the Romanian Sailing Federation. Is there an actual WS Council decision?

 

Yes - the World council decision is to accept the Romanian proposal. 

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31 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Bravo to World Sailing for creating more events for "Mixed Persons."

I am not a mixed person myself but some of my best friends are mixed persons and it's about time we stopped discriminating against mixed people.

Yes it's a silly title, for an as-yet vaguely defined team event. I think it's a bit early dismiss it out of hand.

New Mixed One-Person Dinghy Event - it is important that the events at the Olympic Games enable a wide range of physiques and weights to compete. Retaining the Finn dinghy would maintain the opportunities for men in the range of around 90kg plus, and give a new opportunity for women weighing around 70kg to compete.
The name of the event “Mixed One-Person Dinghy Event” is a suggestion, and may of course be changed at a later date to a name which works within the entire package of names for the ten events.
The Mixed One-Person Dinghy Event concept of a mixed team event will create a new innovative approach for dinghy sailing at the Olympic Games, and will not discriminate countries which, for social, cultural or religious reasons, may not be able to support two athletes of different gender competing in the same boat.
The Mixed One-Person Dinghy Event would offer flexible and multiple race format options.

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17 minutes ago, redstar said:

 

Yes - the World council decision is to accept the Romanian proposal. 

Not really. The decision was to defer a decision until November. http://www.sailing.org/news/86947.php#.Wvp0ZqTRWUl

 

The first recommendation was to proceed on the basis that all Equipment proposals be deferred until the 2018 Annual Conference. Following the final Event decision made by the Council at the Mid-Year meeting, the Equipment Committee will need to consider the relevant Equipment criteria and the Events Committee will have to consider the format options for the Events. This was agreed by Council and this means all Equipment decisions are deferred to the 2018 Annual Conference.

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So what would a girly Finn look like? They already tried with the Europe?

Or a totally different boat with just a combined pointscore?

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2 hours ago, dogwatch said:

will not discriminate countries which, for social, cultural or religious reasons, may not be able to support two athletes of different gender competing in the same boat.

Are you FUCKING kidding me??

If a country can't put a woman and a man in the same boat because they still live in the middle ages they should not be allowed in the Olympic games. In any sport.

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1 hour ago, chuso007 said:

 

Are you FUCKING kidding me??

If a country can't put a woman and a man in the same boat because they still live in the middle ages they should not be allowed in the Olympic games. In any sport.

 Do you realise how daft that statement looks when placed next to an avatar of a pair of bouncing boobs?

Cheers,

           W.

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2 hours ago, chuso007 said:

 

Are you FUCKING kidding me??

If a country can't put a woman and a man in the same boat because they still live in the middle ages they should not be allowed in the Olympic games. In any sport.

I am going to have to work out how I feel about this. I'm all for a genital-blind dinghy fleet but maybe not for that one stated reason. When my initial feeling is reactionary it is a bit of a red flag.

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1 hour ago, WGWarburton said:

 Do you realise how daft that statement looks when placed next to an avatar of a pair of bouncing boobs?

Cheers,

           W.

Certainly not. 

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If the editorial on the front page is to be believed, the finn is in and the Europe Dinghy is back after a super long hiatus. woo....

DRC

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Erm, can't see any mention of the Europe on the FP? Lovely responsive boats anyway and you learn to duck.Europe_Dinghy.jpg

 

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It will be interesting to see the men’s 470 skippers dump their male crew for women crews to meet the requirements after 2020. We will see if the female skippers with the male crews will be competitive. There certainly will be some who are, but my thinking is the female skipper In the 470 will become a rarity. Similar to the Nacra 17. 

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I suspect you are wrong and we will see predominantly female helms with male crews. That's the optimum weight distribution. Time will tell.

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Short so they are lighter. https://www.sail-world.com/Australia/SailJuicecom-Crew-weights-in-the-Olympic-classes/38778?source=google.co.uk

Men’s and Open Olympic Classes (Top 10 in Cascais)

Laser – Average Weight: 81kg. Weight Range: 78 – 84kg
Finn – Average Weight: 100kg. Weight Range: 94 – 110kg
RS-X - Average Weight: 73kg. Weight Range: 68 – 79kg
49er Helm - Average Weight: 71kg. Weight Range: 68 – 77kg
49er Crew - Average Weight: 77kg. Weight Range: 72 – 80kg
470 Helm - Average Weight: 65kg. Weight Range: 60 – 67kg
470 Crew - Average Weight: 71kg. Weight Range: 65 – 75kg
Tornado Helm - Average Weight: 73kg. Weight Range: 69 – 79kg
Tornado Crew - Average Weight: 76kg. Weight Range: 71 – 79kg
Star Helm - Average Weight: 94kg. Weight Range: 80 – 110kg
Star Crew - Average Weight: 102kg. Weight Range: 90 – 115kg

Women’s Olympic Classes (Top 10 in Cascais)

Laser Radial - Average Weight: 66kg. Weight Range: 58 – 70kg
RS-X - Average Weight: 57kg. Weight Range: 52 – 62kg
470 Helm - Average Weight: 57kg. Weight Range: 49 – 65kg
470 Crew - Average Weight: 67kg. Weight Range: 61 – 70kg
Yngling Helm - Average Weight: 67kg. Weight Range: 60 – 79kg
Yngling Middle - Average Weight: 67kg. Weight Range: 55 – 74kg
Yngling Crew - Average Weight: 66kg. Weight Range: 60 – 82kg

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Way back in the day when I sailed 470s, it was always effective to put the small person on the helm and the bigger person on the wire.  However, the bigger person shouldn't be too big as the 470 is basically a boat for lightweights.

Also, at the club level it was very effective to put the more experienced person on the wire.  The skipper needed to keep their head in the boat while the crew watched for traffic and called tactics.  I'm sure the situation is very different for Olympic-level sailing.

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11 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Short so they are lighter. https://www.sail-world.com/Australia/SailJuicecom-Crew-weights-in-the-Olympic-classes/38778?source=google.co.uk

Men’s and Open Olympic Classes (Top 10 in Cascais)

Laser – Average Weight: 81kg. Weight Range: 78 – 84kg
Finn – Average Weight: 100kg. Weight Range: 94 – 110kg
RS-X - Average Weight: 73kg. Weight Range: 68 – 79kg
49er Helm - Average Weight: 71kg. Weight Range: 68 – 77kg
49er Crew - Average Weight: 77kg. Weight Range: 72 – 80kg
470 Helm - Average Weight: 65kg. Weight Range: 60 – 67kg
470 Crew - Average Weight: 71kg. Weight Range: 65 – 75kg
Tornado Helm - Average Weight: 73kg. Weight Range: 69 – 79kg
Tornado Crew - Average Weight: 76kg. Weight Range: 71 – 79kg
Star Helm - Average Weight: 94kg. Weight Range: 80 – 110kg
Star Crew - Average Weight: 102kg. Weight Range: 90 – 115kg

Women’s Olympic Classes (Top 10 in Cascais)

Laser Radial - Average Weight: 66kg. Weight Range: 58 – 70kg
RS-X - Average Weight: 57kg. Weight Range: 52 – 62kg
470 Helm - Average Weight: 57kg. Weight Range: 49 – 65kg
470 Crew - Average Weight: 67kg. Weight Range: 61 – 70kg
Yngling Helm - Average Weight: 67kg. Weight Range: 60 – 79kg
Yngling Middle - Average Weight: 67kg. Weight Range: 55 – 74kg
Yngling Crew - Average Weight: 66kg. Weight Range: 60 – 82kg

Any weight data that is close to current available? These weights are from ? 2004?

 

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Do you think the weight distribution will change much over a couple quads?

looks like enough of an overlap that sailing talent would be more important.

so look at the top current British 470 men’s and women’s teams. I believe the skippers are both medalists. They are both highly ranked in the class currently. So if they swapped crews who would win? Would the size of skipper/ crew be relevant to who is more competitive? 

It will be interesting to see, but I think I already know the answer. 

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15 hours ago, bait said:

Do you think the weight distribution will change much over a couple quads?

looks like enough of an overlap that sailing talent would be more important.

so look at the top current British 470 men’s and women’s teams. I believe the skippers are both medalists. They are both highly ranked in the class currently. So if they swapped crews who would win? Would the size of skipper/ crew be relevant to who is more competitive? 

It will be interesting to see, but I think I already know the answer. 

I definitely think switching from the 470 to other classes with different competitive weight ranges will affect who will actually go to the Olympics.  In the case of 470 women, I think the competitive weight range coincides with that of fit athletes.  For the 470 men, I think the competitive weight range is a little light.

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On 5/15/2018 at 6:23 PM, bait said:

It will be interesting to see the men’s 470 skippers dump their male crew for women crews to meet the requirements after 2020. We will see if the female skippers with the male crews will be competitive. There certainly will be some who are, but my thinking is the female skipper In the 470 will become a rarity. Similar to the Nacra 17. 

Only one trap means it ain't similar at all.  

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There will be plenty of opinions on this and it will be fun to watch how it shakes out. On a basic level it would seem only rational for a small female skipper and larger male crew that fits into the optimal weight  range of the class to be most competitive. At the end of the day right now it is the same boat and the optimal sizes have always been the same for both men and women. I believe a top ranked male skipper such as Belcher with a good female crew would still be dominant in the mixed class. But put his crew Ryan with the top female skipper and they could not beat Belcher. The perceived  crew size difference does not overcompensate for the talent.

I do fully agree the men are working hard to keep weight off to stay in the optimal weight range while the female teams are are on the large size of the female population- albeit extremely fit. I really think the overall disparity in weights between the two gender classes is smaller than people would think. Just walk around the boat park in Miami at the World Cup event and you would be very impressed with the female teams from Europe. Here in the US there are no active women 470 sailors to compare against our one and only active men’s 470 team so most of our US based opinionated population here on this site have nothing to go on but what they believe to be common sense. I get it! But there is more to it than just physics.

 So let everything come together after 2020 then we will revisit this topic prior to 2024 and everyone can then blast me for the idiot you believe I am. Until then I am sticking with my opinion. 

 

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6 hours ago, bait said:

At the end of the day right now it is the same boat and the optimal sizes have always been the same for both men and women.

But they haven't. They've always been different for men and womens fleets. Reason is that in a weight sensitive boat that's scored on finishing places  its better to be on the fleet average (mode, not mean if you want to be picky) than it is to be some optimal weight. Seems counter intuitive,  but if you sit down with a scoring program and model a series where weight is the only differentiator you'll find that's how it pans out.

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Well stated if weight was the only differentiator. While there are currently two gender specific fleets there are certainly two fleet averages. When it changes to mixed crew the difference in this averages then becomes much smaller as you are looking at the difference in the gender role of each crew. There will inevitably be a group of male skippers w/ female crews and female skippers / male crews. Also the optimal weight is generally stated as a range as atmospheric conditions and sea state change for various competitions making lighter or heavier teams more effective in their optimal conditions. 

My point has always been that sailing talent will ultimately bring the best team to the top regardless of the gender role. My opinion is it is more likely to be a male skipper/ female crew. 

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On ‎5‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 4:05 AM, dogwatch said:

^

Just to be clear, not my words, simply copied from M22.

This really is fucked up.

"New Mixed One-Person Dinghy Event / Retain Equipment and New Equipment – this event proposal renames the current “Heavyweight Men’s One Person Dinghy” to “Mixed One-Person Dinghy.. The Finn would be retained for the men’s equipment and new equipment would be selected for the women’s event that suits women of around 70kg.*

 
* This will be changed. The Equipment Committee will define the criteria to decide the equipment in November 2018, with the intention to have a one-person women’s boat to suit a different physique."
 

So - if the Finn is one boat, and another boat is being chosen for heavy-weight women, my math tells me that is a total of two boats. How the hell is this one Event? A handicap fleet in the Olympics would be novel. I even tried reading M-22 with a Romanian accent and still couldn't get it to make sense.

This is what the "best of the best" in our sport's governing body could come up with.  How comforting.

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Some good analysis here: https://www.sail-world.com/news/205315/Top-skippers-speak-out-in-vain-on-2024-options

Matt Allen said. "We have had some discussions regarding the media aspects. I would like the author of the submission to explain as to how we are going to deal with two different boats on two different courses." that in the article comes from a delegate question asked before the vote, so it seems that the event is has been envisaged as two separate fleets, in two separate boats with scores combined. 
 
"The fact remains that the Mixed One-Person Dinghy event is a complete nonsense in practice, and is too much of a crapshoot to attract serious Olympic campaigns." Richard Gladwell, author of linked article. 
 
From the sounds of things it does seem the Finns shoehorned themselves in there, to save the classes Olympic spot, without much thought of what a 'crapshoot' the event would be. Don't get me wrong, I like the finn, but it seems they voted/lobbied for retaining the finn in the olympics at all costs, rather than retaining a specific event for heavyweight males. 
 
Interesting from Ian Walker in the comments below the article:
"isn't one problem that the class associations have too much power and can influence the voting for their own benefit rather than the bigger picture or what is best for sailing and sailors as a whole in the long run? ... if we do not come up with a viable solution to what mixed singlehanded means I fear Council may have just voted for 9 medals instead of 10." 

 

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2 hours ago, bill4 said:

So - if the Finn is one boat, and another boat is being chosen for heavy-weight women, my math tells me that is a total of two boats. How the hell is this one Event?

People seems to be guessing some kind of team event like a relay?

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46 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

People seems to be guessing some kind of team event like a relay?

Or two totally separate series of races where the combined scores are used to determine the winning "team"?

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How many medals... is the key question!   if they offer one gold for the winning male / female team from Country X....  That will break new ground in sports psychology.     I am hard pressed to find ANY notion of the concept of team... when you sail different boats on two different courses..   What is the psychology that has you deal with  you winning every finn race and your team mate craters  on her europe and your combined score is 4th for country X.

The biggest mistake world sailing has ever made was creating mixed for multihull.   They sold out  the integrity of competition to appease a variety of factions..     Remember... Multihull was an OPEN competition before this country club compromise of integrity was agreed to.

The multihull community was DESPERATE to get back in the olympics and argued to us skeptics  that mixed was a necessary step towards Mens and Woman's Multihull.....   pray tell.... what country put forth a proposal that had men's and woman's multihull for the upcoming quad... or now the next one.

Set aside the politics...   go with boards (kite powered) Single handers dinghy, Single hander multi, double hander sloops  double hander skiffs.    Equipment is chosen to give you the full weight range of sailors.

 

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12 hours ago, Tcatman said:

How many medals... is the key question!   if they offer one gold for the winning male / female team from Country X....  That will break new ground in sports psychology.     I am hard pressed to find ANY notion of the concept of team... when you sail different boats on two different courses..   What is the psychology that has you deal with  you winning every finn race and your team mate craters  on her europe and your combined score is 4th for country X.

The biggest mistake world sailing has ever made was creating mixed for multihull.   They sold out  the integrity of competition to appease a variety of factions..     Remember... Multihull was an OPEN competition before this country club compromise of integrity was agreed to.

The multihull community was DESPERATE to get back in the olympics and argued to us skeptics  that mixed was a necessary step towards Mens and Woman's Multihull.....   pray tell.... what country put forth a proposal that had men's and woman's multihull for the upcoming quad... or now the next one.

Set aside the politics...   go with boards (kite powered) Single handers dinghy, Single hander multi, double hander sloops  double hander skiffs.    Equipment is chosen to give you the full weight range of sailors.

 

I am assuming that both the male and the female in the "team" who win the mixed one person dinghy event will get gold medals.

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The extent of the sky falling headless chickening on this amazes me... Its only a damn format change for the games, its not even going to affect the average sailor...

It comes over loud and clear (and little else does) from the IOC documentation that they wanted more mixed events. So, this is what they wanted. yes, its a new format to sailing, but so were all male events, all female events and compulsory mixed events. We never had those before and largely still don't out of the games. If you look round sport in general there are a good number of events where separate individual performances add up to a combined score, both with the same individual in different formats, different individuals in the same format and even different individuals in different formats (swimming medley relay for an example of the last). Its not as if this is totally out on a limb and utterly different from anything else out there. 

As for some of the more extreme comments, I suppose they might schedule starts on two different courses, but bearing in mind all Olympic racing shares courses at the moment its really pretty unlikely isn't it!  I would hope that over the next few months a whole bunch of varied formats get tried out to see what works. A relay might be fun, combined corrected times rather than points scores would give the opportunity for a really stellar performance by one half of the team to make up for a lack luster one by the other, points for the team could be added up before or after discards are applied...

Then do we race them off the same start, different starts or what. What about tactics? If both boats are on the same course are both members of one team allowed to combine together to sail a boat from the other team right to the back of the fleet?  In which case does the other boat come back to help? 

To be honest I doubt if the average IOC member can really tell the difference between a 470 and a 49er or even cares... Big changes in event format rather than equipment may well be what they've been agitating for. Who knows: I'm not a party to those smoke filled rooms. But for small nations I bet a change in format is a lot more palatable than throwing out all the boats and starting again.

But calm down dears, its only the Olympics. It doesn't affect most of us!

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1 hour ago, JimC said:

The extent of the sky falling headless chickening on this amazes me... Its only a damn format change for the games, its not even going to affect the average sailor...

It comes over loud and clear (and little else does) from the IOC documentation that they wanted more mixed events. So, this is what they wanted. yes, its a new format to sailing, but so were all male events, all female events and compulsory mixed events. We never had those before and largely still don't out of the games. If you look round sport in general there are a good number of events where separate individual performances add up to a combined score, both with the same individual in different formats, different individuals in the same format and even different individuals in different formats (swimming medley relay for an example of the last). Its not as if this is totally out on a limb and utterly different from anything else out there. 

As for some of the more extreme comments, I suppose they might schedule starts on two different courses, but bearing in mind all Olympic racing shares courses at the moment its really pretty unlikely isn't it!  I would hope that over the next few months a whole bunch of varied formats get tried out to see what works. A relay might be fun, combined corrected times rather than points scores would give the opportunity for a really stellar performance by one half of the team to make up for a lack luster one by the other, points for the team could be added up before or after discards are applied...

Then do we race them off the same start, different starts or what. What about tactics? If both boats are on the same course are both members of one team allowed to combine together to sail a boat from the other team right to the back of the fleet?  In which case does the other boat come back to help? 

To be honest I doubt if the average IOC member can really tell the difference between a 470 and a 49er or even cares... Big changes in event format rather than equipment may well be what they've been agitating for. Who knows: I'm not a party to those smoke filled rooms. But for small nations I bet a change in format is a lot more palatable than throwing out all the boats and starting again.

But calm down dears, its only the Olympics. It doesn't affect most of us!

I agree, It doesn't affect most of us.

But some kind of male/female team in different boats might be a fun thing to try as a special annual event at local sailing clubs.  

Male in Laser and female in Sunfish for example at typical American sailing clubs. God knows there are enough boats of both classes sitting around in dinghy parks that are hardly ever sailed. And anything that encourages more female participation in club racing is a good thing.

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The mixed one person dinghy could be handled similar to Scholastic sailing in the US. With one gender sailing the A side and the other gender sailing the B side. It is not uncommon to have the A and B sides in Scholastic sailing sail different boats so that should not matter. And they could sail the same course.

Then combine the scores and award medals. Like in Scholastic sailing both sides need to hold up their end of the scores to make it work. If the women’s side is killing it and the men’s side is hopeless then they did not put together a very good team! 

Maybe even allow substitutes so a team effect comes into play. There can be two skippers for each gender. A heavy and a light. Teams can decide who to put in for what race.

 

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The concept of team is founded on the REQUIREMENT for team work.... Not just summing up two independent scores and calling that a team result.   WHAT is the psychology and principles of team work in this new format in any configuration you can imagine?

Making the case that Olympic sailing is relevant to the rank and file sailor is more difficult when the event is a made for tv reality show.   (now maybe they think they can market a reality show world wide).

the olympic nay sayers  are not persuaded that the Competition Value  (in ANY class of dinghy) overcomes their numerous unrelated bitches about the establishment, class politics and so... I can't see how this solution helps matters...  (boards (kites), single handed dinghy, single handed multi, sloops, skiffs with Male/Female fleets represents the spectrum of small boat racing AND has the integrity of competition.    Of course , in the real world... we compete in mostly OPEN competitions but at the elite level... male and female events are reasonable.

Come on JimC

Quote

So, this is what they wanted. yes, its a new format to sailing, but so were all male events, all female events and compulsory mixed events. We never had those before and largely still don't out of the games. If you look round sport in general there are a good number of events where separate individual performances add up to a combined score, both with the same individual in different formats, different individuals in the same format and even different individuals in different formats (swimming medley relay for an example of the last). Its not as if this is totally out on a limb and utterly different from anything else out there. 

Yes it is totally different...   Combining individual Olympic sports into  a national team event... eg a swimming relay presuposes that those athletes compete for themselves through individual qualifying rounds.  The team events follow the individual event.

4 years of training... that totally depends on an independent result  that you have no impact on!... Who would do that?..

If they took the Laser fleets and made a team event.... OK...  the national team could decide that on heat 3... they swap in their number 2 sailor to give number 1 a break and let them compete for their individual medal... OK... BUT!   you train for the shot at your individual medal and the team events are phase two of your olympic games.

The olympics is about individual  efforts...   but OK... the IOC wants mixed (after years of watching sailing capitulate to parochial interests with agendas. trumping the integrity of competition) ....  The only way this makes sense is to team race with two person /two class of boat teams in fleet racing.   I don't know enough about team racing to opine if this will be a good game.   I can't imagine finding a compliment to the finn for woman that is matched in performance for the woman... so... it will be a really novel game.   (Hey... maybe they give everyone wireless headsets and we get to listen in on each teams tactics)    

So, its not the end of the world for anyone... just not seeing how it helps small boat sailing with the rank and file sailor and I don't see how it helps the universe of Olympic sailing athletes.   at best... another missed opportunity

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25 minutes ago, Dex Sawash said:

Mixed pairs in skating could skate apart too. 

 

/shitpost

ah... screw it... just go with pairs!   some may want them to skate apart! (he he)

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