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Mitch

Newbie Catamaran Spreadsheet Analysis; Pepito Follow through

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Hello Everyone,

First off, excellent responses to Pepito’s plans.  I’m Mitch Taylor in Stuart FL. Joined Pepito's thread a little late so started another just in case nobody was still on that one, not exactly sure how it works. If it's better to continue his thread then someone just erase this one.

Just joining the SA forum for the first time (first Sailing forum ever actually) and looks like the best place, after many years of reading/ research, to find help.  

I’m on nearly the same path as Pepito though medical background, still practicing, with kids still in Middle school; but divorced, living alone now.  The younger two, 11 and 13 will hopefully be living with me aboard a 35’ish monohull in the next year, then 42’ish cat in another 2 years.

I’m self taught so far sailing a 17’ Watkins Daysailer (first sailboat) in the St. Lucie Inlet which has been great fun and invaluable experience. Just sold it for probably a F18 next step up.  Then plan on persuing certification for Catamaran Cruising ASA certifications.

My angle:  I’m not ashamed to admit I'm a “spreadsheet” guy, trying to narrow down the field by SA/D and D/L ratios, etc., for a performance designed but liveable used, well built Cats in the 39 to 48’ range.  

Budget is similar to Pepito, but I’d like to keep the initial purchase in the $400k range for upgrades and surprises as I’ve read repeatedly overextending is maybe one of the worst first mistakes. Even the new 40's fully equipped are pushing $650k.  And I would love to not take the hardest hit of depreciation with a new boat purchase.

Therefore in reality what I guess I’m loofdsking for is most likely a 10 year old 42’ cat well balanced, performance to comfort, Owners version…. Earlier French, Australian, S African...Schionning, Grainger, Outremer, Catana, Lightwave, Nautitech, Fountaine Pajot, Seawind, Leopard?  Would love a new Balance Roger Hill 451, but don't want or need a new boat.

Can anyone point me towards previous threads, or books, blogs, personal SPREADSHEETS would be great!, etc to “analyze” the field?  I know numbers can’t accurately describe the “feel” or value of a great boat or even make fair comparisons of boats with different strengths.  There is no fast comfortable affordable boat. Every boat is a compromise for everyone’s priortities.

Australian Multihull World Article by Joe Goddard seems to be on the right track http://www.multihull.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=97:buying-a-catamaran&catid=19&Itemid=101

but the graph didn't make the article.  I emailed them and they replied with the graph below.  

MultiHull Dynamics has certainly done a lot of analytics but they can’t or won’t provide it in a spreadsheet format to view the entire database with adjustable variables, I’ve asked.  So I'm comparing two at a time. 

I’m just trying to organize thoughts and create a list outside my head, that I can reference and share with notes of strengths and weaknesses so I can begin ranking favorites and thereby keep an eye on the market for what might pop up in the next couple of years.  Surely I’m not the first.

Favorites so far are Leopard 39 and 43 and SeaWind 1160.  Love the accessibility of techniks on the Leopard for maintenance.  As well as the semi raised bulkhead helm.  Broad enough hulls to carry a reasonable liveaboard arsenal but not super heavy.  Windows work, could be better.  Good Sail plan.  Would like the forward cockpit on the 44...

Thoughts? Thanks, Mitch

Graph.jpg.pdf

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38 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

Build your own spreadsheet using the data and formulae from them.... Not hard to do and you can tailor it to suit your particular logic and preferences. If I can do it, you can..... but my interests and preferences are a lot different.....

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8 hours ago, Mitch said:

Nevermind,  '93 Outremer 55 STD $385k

I think I'm in love

Cool design, see if you can find one of the 55 lights, there just a lighter weight build....

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Just be aware the boat displacement is one of the biggest lies out there. Multihulls are worse. Most multihulls quote "Light" Displacement with no food/fuel/water/people/payload aboard. In recent years (maybe last 6??) CE has required boat builders to actually weigh representative samples. Suddenly all the French boats got many tons heavier, almost overnight! Builders in other parts of the world are not required, to my knowledge to be accurate.

From a 2002 Cruising world review of Fountaine Pajot 46 cat (not a light cat but not a total condo cat either)   Disp (light): 21,280 lbs. (9,652 kgs.)

From FP's current web site, Saona 47 (really only 45.8' long so similar to Bahia 46)   13.8 tonne (unloaded)

So, two cats from the same builder, are 4 T heavier. Yes the Saona has a flybridge/hard bimini. 

But 4T heavier?  43% Heavier??

So when comparing boats, published displacement, unless CE boats of the past 6 years or so, should be taken with massive grains of salt.. Very generally and feel free to disagree with me:

Slow boats are Leopards, Moorings, Lagoons, Seawind

Middle boats are current Catanas, FP, Nautitech, PDQ 44

Faster boats are older Catanas, Outremers, some Grainger, St Francis 44/50 (?)

Australian boats tend to be fast but overcanvassed with oversized rigs

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If you want to check real weights and sail areas of boats, look up their rating certificates, if they are likely to have them, OMR, MOCRA and TEXEL certificates are all on line.......

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Cat newbie here as well, but I like the look of the Seawind "lite", and they are now doing a "sport" version with a bigger carbon rig and daggerboards, which might push it up at least into the "Middle boats" category; it seems like it might be available new in your price range.  The "lite" version is $80k less ($310k I think).  

http://www.seawindcats.com/models/seawind-1190-sport/

Interested to hear more experienced folks opine but having standard off-the-shelf 20hp outboards that tilt up out of the water (you could have a matching third unit for your tender) seems like it could significantly simplify life (parts, maintenance, fuel, zincs, cleaning, etc...) depending on intended use.  

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I like outboards for <40' cats that aren't too far from home. But I like inboard diesels for boats that are bigger and go further distances.

I think a 500 n.m. fuel range is a good goal for a long distance cruising boat. The relative fuel efficiency of gas vs diesel motors means you have to carry a lot more gas for the same range vs diesels.

Our 40' cat came with 2 x 9.9 Yamaha high thrust. They were great until they weren't. (one threw a rod, one had a cooling system fatal bout of corrosion). Even close to the pitch center of the boat, they didn't like choppy conditions and ventilated badly.

Most outboards are designed for fast boats with small props. Only a few are designed with deep reduction gears, extra long legs, and larger props so that limits your choice.

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Thanks for the input.  Yes the 1190 Sport does have that appeal of skinny water exploring with raised rudders as well as daggerboards.  And I like the layout as well so got the spreadsheet options list from the dealer here in the states and upwards of $650 with full kit.  Same goes for the Lucia 40 and Leopard 40.  Spoke (emailing) with Phil Berman of Multihull Company/ Balance Cat and watched all his video's as well and loved the 526 but not in the same ballpark.  One take home message that stuck with me.  If you can afford 10 more feet of LWL without adding the rest of the condo in accessories it's a lot cheaper than building in carbon and just as fast.. So that's why the STD and Light 55 stuck out.  Yes it's a lot of boat but I plan on living aboard and keeping it as light as possible.  Me and my dog.  GF if she's lucky..  Like the older Catana 52 but drastically more expensive.  TS 50 also but $800k.

Made my own spreadsheet from MD and sorting by LWL/Bh as well as Base Speed has been really enlightening.  Wish we had some more recent data for comparison but in reality I don't think I really want any of the more recent boats as they've all trended away from performance and Hull Beam ratios have only increased steadily until you arrive at what I though was amazing, reading CaptStu on Cruisers' Forum about the New Leopard 40.  "One of the worse sailing cat's ever experienced... Looks like a brick and sails like a brick".  We've gotten to the point were demand for luxuries and accomodations have completely overcome the capacity of the boat to even balance sails in LIGHT winds.  

Amazing because before I started digging deeper the Leopard 40 was probably at the top of my list with the Lucia for comfort and affordability.   Now my priorities are changing as my knowledge is expanding and the older designs.... long, thin, light with decent visibility under decks are at the top of my list.   1.3m draft in a 15m liveaboard that can beat 8 knots to windward if you need to means a lot more than just a party platform for the weekend that I can't take anywhere if the weather isn't perfect. 

Sad when you think about it because builders are going in opposite directions.  If you want what most of us are looking for they either aren't building it anymore or they're only building in carbon and excluding us at the price point...  How many 15 year old Outremer, Catana, Crowther, Grainger, Atlantic's are left secondhand out there.  They're almost no Aussie boats on the East US Coast.. it's a shame because it'll probably take another decade for design and demand to turn attention back to an affordable liveable safe fast 50 boat under $500k like the BaliCAT. 

Snapshot of part of the spreadsheet below   

Screenshot 2018-06-04 at 4.42.06 PM.png

Screenshot 2018-06-04 at 5.07.55 PM.png

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That Cata Thai hull shape though, ummm, no, no thank you. There is more than just looks to a proper catamaran hull shape. Go sail a few F18's and you'll see what I mean.

However, I do agree that there are waaay too many condomarans. Why? These are the boats charter fleets order...charter customers want to party for a week in the Carribbean, motor from point A to B at night when sailing through a narrow channel isn't viable. Performance under sail? Who cares-that sail is there for shade only! Performance to weather? Its the trades mon.

Cost has virtually nothing to do with carbon. I hate to burst that bubble, but the only expensive carbon bit is a mast...boards already need carbon for the loads, unless built really thick and then they suck in terms of performance..oh and aluminum masts work fine on boats up into the 40' range, above that there can be a substantial difference in weight and as mentioned, weight sucks on a multi!!!

To clarify a bit, carbon costs money when you switch from a chop gun to any other layup method. Otherwise the delta at industrial quantity is pretty small, most of its in the workforce and their experience-they charge more for carbon because they can and they put there best guys on it generally, but some builders don't have a 'best guy' team. Anyway, you can infuse carbon with vinylester same as glass, the epoxy amines in the vinylester adhere to carbon just fine. So why the cost delta? Generally carbon boats have lots of other carbon bits-lightweight full carbon interiors for example. They cater to performance clientele-guys that are willing to spend money regularly to go faster. Oh, and the charter fleet doesn't order them, so they are expensive because production rates are low. Same as the reason new Porsche 911's cost 4x what a Camaro or Mustang run.

For your needs, I would seriously look at the TS42. Top end build by the team that has built around the world record holders. They know where carbon is needed and where glass is just fine. Amenities look nice, inboard diesels, optional daggerboards and carbon mast/boom (rotating of course).

42' is about the max for solo work IMO, anything bigger and docking is a pain. This boat has plenty of space. Price is right (on paper anyway, options add up quick): http://www.harelyachts.com/boats-for-sale/2017-catamaran-ts-42-france-5679086/, http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2015/Marsaudon-Composites-TS-42-3166445/Le-marin/Martinique-(FR)#.WxgnJmMpBaQ

The Outremer 45 is a similar design philosophy, similar cost. They made them 48' and stuck 45 feet worth of cruising gear on them to get the performance up. Build isn't too bad, not a Gunboat or HH level interior but I'd take one over anything but maybe some of the Atlantic cats or the an GB/HH48. The latter 2 aren't in the same neighborhood cost wise so Outremer or TS it is...

Good luck!

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+1 on all of Zonker's comments.

Published weights/displacements are wildly inaccurate in many cases.  Regarding rating certificates, organizations vary on requiring accurate weight measurements, with some using "best guesses".  One good thing about a used boat is that you can have it weighed when you haul for an inspection.  Do not rely on a travel-lift or crane built in scale, as they are rarely calibrated and only intended to protect the equipment.  A 100 ton scale does a poor job weighing a 15k pound boat in the best of circumstances.  Renting a crane scale is easy enough.  I rented a 4 pad truck scale and had the travel lift set my boat on it.  You want to weigh with all the gear you will sail with.  Weight is a huge variable in estimating performance.  I work with the local rating organization and their VPP.

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I like Schionning (my boat), Grainger and other designers.  They will all be one-off builds, so build quality inspection becomes important looking at used ones.  Designers typically offer a range of designs, not all intended to be light and quick.  You can find deals out there.

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