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Wet Spreaders

Lease or Buy

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Call me old fashioned, but my usual way to buy a car is to save up some cash, then buy it. For the last 25 years I have been doing that with GMC Yukons - save up, buy a new one, drive for 180K miles or so, and replace - takes 7 to 10 years. I'm ready to do it again. Except...

With new technology coming along - lane keeping, potentially driverless modes of one kind or another, new connectivity (USB type C fast chargers), electric drives/hybrid systems, etc, etc, it looks like the semiconductor guys have got hold of the car business and it's likely to go the way of the PC - your new top of the line machine is obsolete in under a year.

Which brings up the idea of leasing rather than buying as a way to hedge against some technological breakthrough destroying the resale value (or making me want to upgrade early).. 

I've never leased a vehicle and my understanding is that most people lease to convert up front costs into a payment. I don't have that issue because my car kitty is full and ready to spend. What do you all think about leasing as a technology hedge rather than a payment process? Worth it or would I be just buying an expensive option?

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In my experience it was worthwhile to lease, when I did less than 20k miles a year, and the LLC could lease it, with pre-tax dollars that had not already give 30 cents on the dollar in taxes.  Now that I drive just over 20k miles, I purchase with financing.

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The decision really depends on three things; how long you will keep the car, how many miles you drive each year and how heavily you will use it.

The longer you keep the car the less it pays to lease since you really only have the term of the lease (3-5 year say) to use it. Once your lease expires you can either return the car or pay the pre-set purchase price. That price may be either higher or lower than the market rate at the time. If you usually keep a car longer then buying probably makes sense.  

Most leases have a maximum number of miles you can drive in a year. If you drive more you have to pay up at a pretty high price. If you think you will stay within the mileage maximum then it may make sense to lease.

Finally you can't trash the car because the leasing company can charge you for what they call "heavy use" during the term of the lease. This could include extra fees for things like parking lot dings and scratches, extra tire wear, scratches on the seats and lots of other things.  

Just a few things to think about.

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when you buy and scratch the car it's

AWWW Fuuuuuck..

when you lease and scatch the car

AAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK

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I buy cars and keep them with the help of baling wire and duct tape...  the wrecking yard has even refused to take my cars when I am done with them  :D

Something to consider....  wait until October - November and buy last year's model... Late November...  Black Friday/Thanksgiving week  believe it or not, is now the new best time to buy a car...  there is a balloon interest payment due on the Floor Plan note for inventory on the lot come December and the dealers want to get this cleaned out...  the longer it sits on the lot the more it is going to coast them...

If you go this route, stay away from the big box dealerships like DCH, Pensky, etc... they are capitalized pretty well and don't rely as much on floor plan loans..  so there not as hungry as lets say you local dealership. Their strategy to rule the world is built on retained earnings.

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I hedge my hard earned dollars.....buy and keep...10 years at least....Toyota's ...repeat...walk in with a big throw down and walk out on my terms with close to what I had hope for....usually they'll do quick business with that approach

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I thought this was a thread on Romance

Test drive Only, Rent if you Must

Never Lease or Buy

Vehicles = Never had a New one

rather had the 2 Houses 

Let someone else take the Big Hit & see if it's a Lemon

Your results Will Very ....Much

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The only dealer closing ad on I've every bought was the AntiCoonPheromone Protection....I question myself sometimes ...

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Keep buying Wet, it's smarter. You're right that cars are going silicon, but they can be upgraded, and they'll still be good for 7 to 10 years with modular upgrades. Plus, all this new safety stuff most significantly helps us stay a little safer from distracted, crap drivers.

If you're a good driver, a careful one who doesn't text and drive and can keep your focus on the road, drive for the conditions of ice and snow, then most of the minor advances in existing technology are only going to make you marginally safer. They'll add a little to resale, but leases are often expensive.

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IMHO, its like buying a computer. Some things you can upgrade but its really freezing a moment in time technologically. I view it as jumping from moment to moment every 5 years or so. I expect others will come out with “cool stuff” that I won’t have until my next jump. You just expect that. Chasing technological advances every time they happen is possible but expensive. Cars its the same. If having the latest technology thingee in your computer or car is important (and I get it, new “stuff” is fun) then just know you’ll pay a price for that. In a lease...unless you can write it off as a company expense, you are going to constantly deal with the hassle of the “rules” established buy the lease company, many of which have been mentioned here. Ultimately I think it affects resale pretty minimally as well. Folks being a used car are not expecting it be on the technological cutting edge. My daily driver is a 2013 big Expedition. So its 5 years old with 48K miles and in great shape. I could drive it another 5 years without a hitch I’m sure. But I have watched the new one...even test drove one. Nice.......better integration of smart phone and Nav etc. I get having the bug. I’m still going to wait a while.

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They only new tech I have any interest in having but do not...is the blind spot alert in the rear view mirrors...it is really hard these day to look over your shoulders and check rear view mirrors....partly because of obstructions in the vehicles design and ,IMO, smaller exterior rear views (wind age /gas mileage)...

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Lot of good above. 

I buy a higher end, well optioned car coming off a 2-3 year lease, research the VIN.  Lexus and Acura (and others) service managers will give you an “as built” option list, a list of major repairs, recalls and service history as recorded in the national database so you know if it’s a lemon. I strike an agressive deal, pay cash and drive it until it’s a donor to a good charity. Rinse and repeat. Current DD is a 2007 Lexus with 165k miles and looks and drives just fine. Probably has 2-3 years left in in and I think I’ve spent $2000 for repairs other than scheduled maintenance, tires and brakes over coming up to 8 years of ownership. 

As said above, leases are for those who have to have a new car every 2-3 years and are happy with making payments forever. Stick with the terms and wear and they are OK. I’ll buy your really nice turn in when you go to your next new toy. 

If your car is reliable transportation with decent, if not state of the art options, you are better off buying a good late model used car. If that’s too much risk, buy a CPO used car. 

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48 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

They only new tech I have any interest in having but do not...is the blind spot alert in the rear view mirrors...it is really hard these day to look over your shoulders and check rear view mirrors....partly because of obstructions in the vehicles design and ,IMO, smaller exterior rear views (wind age /gas mileage)...

Slight hijack - but, Honda has something that I think should be a standard safety feature in every car:  There's a camera in the passenger-side mirror, and when you turn on the right turn signal, you get a camera display w/distance graduations like the backup camera.  You can also get the camera picture by pushing the button on the end of the turn signal stalk to check before you turn on the blinker.    

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36 minutes ago, Innocent Bystander said:

Lot of good above. 

I buy a higher end, well optioned car coming off a 2-3 year lease, research the VIN.  Lexus and Acura (and others) service managers will give you an “as built” option list, a list of major repairs, recalls and service history as recorded in the national database so you know if it’s a lemon. I strike an agressive deal, pay cash and drive it until it’s a donor to a good charity. Rinse and repeat. Current DD is a 2007 Lexus with 165k miles and looks and drives just fine. Probably has 2-3 years left in in and I think I’ve spent $2000 for repairs other than scheduled maintenance, tires and brakes over coming up to 8 years of ownership. 

As said above, leases are for those who have to have a new car every 2-3 years and are happy with making payments forever. Stick with the terms and wear and they are OK. I’ll buy your really nice turn in when you go to your next new toy. 

If your car is reliable transportation with decent, if not state of the art options, you are better off buying a good late model used car. If that’s too much risk, buy a CPO used car. 

I put about 40-45K a year on my cars, so buy low-end, reliable vehicles that will go 300K miles.  (Honda Accord before, Outback now)

I have to agree w/IB on this - spending $$ on a car that's not a toy just doesn't make a lotta sense to me, it's a rapidly depreciating item, and the depreciation rate seems to correlate directly with price. 

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Great advice and I have done most of those (except leasing) in the past.  Another option is to find what you want but at the point that a bank won't loan money on - got a great deal on a F150 last summer in an estate sale. A good friend did better buying an F250, keeping it for 2 years and making 6k selling it. 

My better half prefers to buy new and keep it for some years, me? I enjoy not being in debt and good vehicles will go 200k plus miles now with no major issues.  The new tech things I like are bluetooth for phone calls and accident avoidance - side mirrors light up with turn signals and beep when something is detected.  I had a company rental for a couple of months with that and really enjoyed it.  Not willing to pay big bucks for it but something I consider worthwhile.  Also beeps when in reverse and a car is coming. 

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2 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

I put about 40-45K a year on my cars, so buy low-end, reliable vehicles that will go 300K miles.  (Honda Accord before, Outback now)

I have to agree w/IB on this - spending $$ on a car that's not a toy just doesn't make a lotta sense to me, it's a rapidly depreciating item, and the depreciation rate seems to correlate directly with price. 

I have never broken it down because "they" are always ahead of the curve with actuarial tables... so one buys a 3 year lease or a new soon to be depreciated...higher interest rate on used vs new ...I drove my last 4Runner 16 years and it was nice starting over new again.... I don't think there is a real answer...I did have a chat with a friend of a friend who was in the car buying business....he said in the backroom where the deals are accepted or rejected....the "prices" are like the ticker on NASDAQ...changing by the second 

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1 hour ago, Innocent Bystander said:

buy a CPO used car. 

They warranty on these are pretty good as well... great peace of mind when buying used...

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Also, there is a new thing being saturated advertised... more like carpet bombed in the Los Angeles Market  - Fair Car App... you can get the car you want, when want it, for as long as you want it, with no string attached... 

https://www.fair.com/

Guess this is how the younguns want to do it these days..   I like the one line in all the commercials.... "there is like no commitment what sooo everrrrr...." what great philosophy to carry through life... guess they are to distracted to run the numbers..

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My accountant says you should only lease if you can deduct the payments as a business expense otherwise buying is more cost effective. He leases an M3 which he can deduct.

People lease personal cars because the payments are lower so they think it's cheaper - they don't seem to grasp that the leasing company has to make money too.

Also, if you exceed the annual mileage cap it gets so expensive that you might as well start taking cabs.

I've found the best thing is to buy 2 or 3 year old lease return vehicles. Big depreciation drop, flawless maintenance, pretty low mileage etc.

People equate them with ex-rental cars but it is entirely different.

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I treat my cars like expensive pencils. Use 'em until they're down to the nub and the eraser was gone long ago.

My 2006 needs new front universals. Still just the equivalent to one car payment. The Prairie Schooner will go for awhile still.

If you want a shiny new car every 3 years, go for the lease! If you enjoy not having a monthly payment, buy the car. I'm banking on having car-share programs by the time my car dies where I don't need to own one. Just click a button on an app and have it in my driveway when I need to go somewhere. I mean really - how many hours/day are you in your car? Most of the time, it's just an expensive piece of metal sitting at your house/work.

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2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

My accountant says you should only lease if you can deduct the payments as a business expense otherwise buying is more cost effective. He leases an M3 which he can deduct.

 

In the US, you can't deduct the entire lease payment for a while now and there are caps on what you can and can not deduct on a luxury leased car in the US per the lease inclusion amount  This is to put everyone on a level playing field when it comes to lease deductions... an M3 would fall into the "luxery zone"  even if it is a business use vehicle.

If the vehicle is being used for business, my advice to would be to run the numbers and look at actual expense including depreciation figuring a five year schedule or a short accelerated cost recovery biases,  look at the standard millage expense predicated on your past three years driving history and see if this fits, or rent from Enterprise and just write off the entire trips expense for that specific business purpose.. 

Today, I am doing the Enterprise drill for my business use for a variety of reasons, one being cost, and the other being liability...  yes, you better check your auto policy about use a car for business purposes....

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27 minutes ago, nacradriver said:

In the US, you can't deduct the entire lease payment for a while now and there are caps on what you can and can not deduct on a luxury leased car in the US per the lease inclusion amount 

It's the same here - there is an upper limit. He's a car guy so he gets an M3 for very cheap.

If it's a private vehicle though you pay full freight.

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Lease if you are buying a Range Rover, Alfa, Jag, Dodge or anything that will fall apart.  Buy if you are buying Toyota, Lexus, Honda, Suburu.  I have a 2 year old 4Runner Limited and will probably have it for 10 more years.

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1 hour ago, 2slow said:

Lease if you are buying a Range Rover, Alfa, Jag, Dodge or anything that will fall apart.  Buy if you are buying Toyota, Lexus, Honda, Suburu.  I have a 2 year old 4Runner Limited and will probably have it for 10 more years.

I gotta say, I have a 2011 Jag XK convertible (Mrs PB’s car). In the 7 years we’ve had it, it’s been faultless. Not a single problem. Before that she had a 2008 XK convertible. Same....faultless. 

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I'm on my second XJR and while not faultless they haven't been out of the ordinary. Well except parts prices but that the case with any expensive car.

Ford smartened Jaguar up a whole lot before they sold it.

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1 hour ago, 2slow said:

Lease if you are buying a Range Rover, Alfa, Jag

Or, just another way of saying  you really can't afford the car

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17 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

I'm on my second XJR and while not faultless they haven't been out of the ordinary. Well except parts prices but that the case with any expensive car.

Ford smartened Jaguar up a whole lot before they sold it.

In addition to my truck - the subject above - I bought the V8 Ftype in 2015. Other than the annual services, it's been back to the shop only once to cure a rattle in the mirror. I'm happy with it and have done about 20K miles. However, having said that, it now has a down-rev electronics package which is frustrating and one of the reasons for my "lease/buy" question WRT the truck. As the semiconductor content of vehicles goes up, you get onto Moore's treadmill and value rots really fast.

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Well, I would never buy a new Jag - their depreciation is horrendous. It's great for subsequent owners though - you get a whole lot of expensive car dirt cheap.

My latest XJR had less than 60K miles on it and I paid less than the original owner paid just in sales tax.

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Well, I would never buy a new Jag - their depreciation is horrendous. It's great for subsequent owners though - you get a whole lot of expensive car dirt cheap.

My latest XJR had less than 60K miles on it and I paid less than the original owner paid just in sales tax.

I think I agree with you - the depreciation hit is pretty big on new Jags, but I don't think that it's because of the actual quality, which has been pretty good, more likely because of historical reputation. The F-Type is built pretty light and has rather hard suspension, but on the other hand, nothing has broken and it flies when I put the hammer down. I'm not unhappy that I bought it new, but I am reconciled to it being an unwise "investment".

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I have had good luck buying cars at the 40,000-60,000 mile point, driving them until they can't move under their own power, and then selling them for scrap. So far I have been making it past 200,000 miles every time.

When I bought my BMW wagon I got every scrap of paper connected with it. First owner bought it new for about $50,000 or so :o He sold it in two years with 25,000 miles for $25,000. The second owner had it two more years and sold it when the warranty ran out just past 50,000 miles. I bought it from him for $16,000 and drove it until the tranny went out at about 220,000 miles. I sold it for $1800 as-is.

I have driven a lot of miles in Porsche, Mercedes, VW, Volvo, Toyota, Acura, and Mazda. On average I would say the per-mile cost in repairs on the European cars is 2-4 times the Japanese cars. I don't get the impression the EU crew even cares what goes wrong when the cars are old, their target market is people leasing them to people who will never pay for a repair. If they did care, window regulators and ignition coil packs wouldn't be standard repairs across many models for at least the last 25 years.

Speaking of leasing, if it is not a business write-off it IMHO is not worth doing with one exception: Every now and again BMW and other manufacturers will have factory cash supporting leasing at really good rates that make sense if you buy the car at the end of the lease.

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9 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Well, I would never buy a new Jag - their depreciation is horrendous. It's great for subsequent owners though - you get a whole lot of expensive car dirt cheap.

My latest XJR had less than 60K miles on it and I paid less than the original owner paid just in sales tax.

Cadillacs are almost as bad - my brother in law bought a 2 yr old XTS w/18K miles, CPO, warranty to 100K for $32K.  Original list on the car was $66K and change. 

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I have always driven my cars until they died, I am not a car enthusiast and they are strictly a means of getting from point a to point b. I can't tell you how many people still say stupid things like, "they don't build them like they used to" and I can't tell you how many people look shocked when I say in return "thank god they don't" in the late 70s and early 80s a car with 75,000 miles was on its last legs. You had to change the plugs, points, plug wires just about every year. The body was rusting off, the frame was weak, the engine and tranny were on the clock... My last few cars have all hit 190k or more and I am terrible about maintenance. I get the oil changed every 12,000 miles if it needs it or not, regular oil too. Last year I sold a 2001 Olds aurora and there was just a tiny bit of surface rust showing, a 16 year old car in the 80s you were lucky if the body panels were still hanging on the vehicle.

I look at it this way. The IRS gives me the same deduction for mileage if I have a payment and high insurance as they give me for a car with no payment. It makes more financial sense to drive it until it won't, and frankly every car I sold was still a daily driver I was just trying to get out before any major repairs happened.  

So with all that said, between leasing or buying. I would buy a car that just came off a 2 year lease. With the way today's cars are built, a car with 24,000 miles on it is only 10-12% of its life expectancy and you will buy for 30% (or better) less then original price. Its a deal all the way around. 

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8 minutes ago, chinabald said:

So with all that said, between leasing or buying. I would buy a car that just came off a 2 year lease. With the way today's cars are built, a car with 24,000 miles on it is only 10-12% of its life expectancy and you will buy for 30% (or better) less then original price. Its a deal all the way around. 

My wife and I were in the Acura dealer when an Integra with 16,000 miles was dropped off for the end of the lease. The dealer didn't own that car an hour, we bought it right then and there. It looked like it had never been driven :D

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If you like a new car and can drive within the mileage limits then lease.  If not you might want to buy.

Last vehicle I leased was when I was doing a lot of towing.  I figured after 5 years of pulling the boat up and down hills, it would be a good idea to let someone else deal with the power train.

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2012 I bought a 1998 Infinity QX4 / was $44K New ...  I paid $600 and drove it home from TAHOE w AC across dessert to Frisco / DAGO

Month ago I bought a 2004 E350 Van w Tow package, Roof Rack - dings everywhere But Runs like a Top, was 28K New ......I paid $300

You guys keep buying New stuff,  Only way I can afford it ;-)

Time for another Harley step Up - Who has one they didn't ride that they need to sell for Cash Today ??? 

I have pennies ready to buy your Dollars 

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

My wife and I were in the Acura dealer when an Integra with 16,000 miles was dropped off for the end of the lease. The dealer didn't own that car an hour, we bought it right then and there. It looked like it had never been driven :D

Good for you- that ought to be a 300K mile car. 

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Probably my best score ever was a 2002 Corvette with 23K miles on it for $25K in 2008. The car was barely broken in and flawless - it still had the assembly markings on the undercarriage. It had been about $65K new

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3 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

My wife and I were in the Acura dealer when an Integra with 16,000 miles was dropped off for the end of the lease. The dealer didn't own that car an hour, we bought it right then and there. It looked like it had never been driven :D

We had a similar experiance with her first Jag. We weren’t really even shopping as she had a Lexus 300 SC she liked but it was getting on in years. We stopped in the dealer and after a short conversation he said he “thought” he had an XK convertible just turned in at the end of a lease. It hadn’t even been washed yet! 2 year old, 18K miles at nearly 1/2 price of new. We bought it that day (we did make them wash it :lol:). Her second Jag......we didn’t do so good. Bought it new but she REALLY wanted it......so wadda ya gonna do......it was her retirement gift to herself. 

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This was my gift to my wife on her 60th birthday.

She said it was the best present she ever got.

Got this one for less than the sales tax the original owner paid as well.

 

XJR.JPG

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Lots of new car tech I don't like:

- autobraking. Was driving a rental moving van and it thought I was going too fast as I approached a car at a red light and it braked pretty hard about 1/2 second before I was going to. Thanks I got it van

- lane departure warning. Vancouver has a fleet of about 1100 Priusies that are part of a car sharing system called "Evo". I use them occasionally (we're a 1 car family) Newer ones have lane departure warning and flash / beep at you if you stray over a lane marker. Thanks I got it car, I was was just cutting the corner a bit.

- Traction control that cuts off the throttle abruptly

Things I'd like:

- stability control

- backup camera

Things to watch out for:

- sensors behind windshields need re-calibration after a windshield is replaced

- steering angle position sensor needs re-calibration after you do a front end alignment

Maybe for you, buy a newish vehicle that has a lot of these features, but be prepared to sell it in 3-5 years if something comes along that is a must have, and not just a "nice to have"

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On 5/15/2018 at 7:25 PM, 2slow said:

Lease if you are buying a Range Rover, Alfa, Jag, Dodge or anything that will fall apart.  Buy if you are buying Toyota, Lexus, Honda, Suburu.  I have a 2 year old 4Runner Limited and will probably have it for 10 more years.

My 2003 Dodge Ram 1500 Quad Cab would disagree.  Have >150k miles on it, and it runs like a top.

 

OT RANT:  I fucking hate all the "new technology" being pushed into vehicles.  Give me a stripped vehicle without electric anything, with crank up windows, and old fashioned key to start it and a manual transmission.  My only nods to technology are A/C and cruise control.  Oh yeah, the A/C compressor went out on my truck two years ago.  I had the shop pull the compressor, install a smaller belt with a different routing scheme and all is good.

Keeps people from asking to borrow my truck in summer. . .

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1 hour ago, bplipschitz said:

My 2003 Dodge Ram 1500 Quad Cab would disagree.  Have >150k miles on it, and it runs like a top.

 

OT RANT:  I fucking hate all the "new technology" being pushed into vehicles.  Give me a stripped vehicle without electric anything, with crank up windows, and old fashioned key to start it and a manual transmission.  My only nods to technology are A/C and cruise control.  Oh yeah, the A/C compressor went out on my truck two years ago.  I had the shop pull the compressor, install a smaller belt with a different routing scheme and all is good.

Keeps people from asking to borrow my truck in summer. . .

hank crank widows will be coming back in 2020 as an option.... 

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if it flies, floats or fucks it's cheaper to rent.. if it rolls ... buy it

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On 5/16/2018 at 1:06 PM, SloopJonB said:

This was my gift to my wife on her 60th birthday.

She said it was the best present she ever got.

Got this one for less than the sales tax the original owner paid as well.

 

XJR.JPG

I bought myself a 97 XK8 for my bday a couple years ago.. 64k miles on it.. timing chain tensioners already replaced with metal.. car is damn near perfect. paid 7k for it from a retired pilot whose wife wanted the garage space for her Hundai Santa Fe. it doesn't have any fancy shit on it but damn it's fun to drive and even gets fairly decent mileage for a V8. it even got me to clean out my garage so I could keep her in it LOL

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Well, I just bought almost $1K of OEM parts for my truck today. The front universals and calipers are shot. Still cheaper than a car payment and only the 2nd repair I've needed to do (water pump went some time ago) since 2006.

Downside is that this will completely eat my Saturday. I pretty much have to tear the whole front end apart to do the job and it's 4wd. I'm sure those universal pins will just press right out after 12 years of midwest winters and dirt roads too...Oh well. Once it's all apart, I can do the 'everything else while I'm in here' thing and not worry for another 12 years. By then, there won't be any sheet metal left and I won't care.

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3 hours ago, Zonker said:

- Traction control that cuts off the throttle abruptly

Things I'd like:

- stability control

- backup camera

Traction control can be irritating on occasion but when you have nearly 400 horses it's very good to have - especially in the rain. Stability control I can live without. I have had ABS for decades now and have never once engaged it except to get a feel for it when I buy a new car.

My favourite electronic gizmo is bumper radar - now that I've got a geezer neck it makes backing up in parking lots way easier. I can get closer than I ever could by eye as well.

I'd like it on my front bumper as well.

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17 hours ago, austin1972 said:

Well, I just bought almost $1K of OEM parts for my truck today. The front universals and calipers are shot. Still cheaper than a car payment and only the 2nd repair I've needed to do (water pump went some time ago) since 2006.

Downside is that this will completely eat my Saturday. I pretty much have to tear the whole front end apart to do the job and it's 4wd. I'm sure those universal pins will just press right out after 12 years of midwest winters and dirt roads too...Oh well. Once it's all apart, I can do the 'everything else while I'm in here' thing and not worry for another 12 years. By then, there won't be any sheet metal left and I won't care.

Don't forget your goggles - sounds like a prime opportunity to get crap in your eyes. 

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5 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Don't forget your goggles - sounds like a prime opportunity to get crap in your eyes. 

Yeah, it's gonna be messy. I just got all the parts over lunch. It's a lot of parts! It'll be like Christmas immediately followed by Halloween.

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On 5/18/2018 at 9:01 AM, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Don't forget your goggles - sounds like a prime opportunity to get crap in your eyes. 

The funny thing is how true that is!  I usually wear an old pair of ski goggles when working under my truck. It looks stupid, but I’ve dealt with the medical bills from a rusty piece of metal bouncing it’s way around safety glasses and into my eye. Not fun. 

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On 5/18/2018 at 9:01 AM, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Don't forget your goggles - sounds like a prime opportunity to get crap in your eyes. 

Got it done! It wasn't nearly as bad as I thought. Everything came apart pretty easily. Took about 4.5 hours. It was a rust festival. Anyhow, props to whoever designed that front end. My only complaint is everything was really f'ing heavy.

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Don't complain - that's why it's still running.

I always get pissed off doing brakes because the rotors are so light now that they can't be turned - replacement is the only option.

All my old rear drive Chevy's could be turned at least twice.

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@SloopJonB I ache like a mofo today. My upper body is shot after that. It really was some impressive engineering though and that front end has to support a 1,200 lb. motor + all the other crap under the hood while I bounce around the farm.

Somebody thought long and hard about how that whole thing should be designed. She/he wasn't concerned about rust though. My clothes are in the wash with a bath of Iron Out.

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2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Don't complain - that's why it's still running.

I always get pissed off doing brakes because the rotors are so light now that they can't be turned - replacement is the only option.

All my old rear drive Chevy's could be turned at least twice.

They had enough material to be turned because they were heavy. I’ll take less unsprung weight any day in a performance car. 

Edit:  Forgot to ask, why are you burning up rotors so often?  I usually go through five or six sets of pads before I even see enough wear to worry about rotors. My current car has 43K miles on it, of which a lot involved track days at a brake killing road coarse. I’m still on the factory discs. 

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I don't replace them all that often - I'm very easy on brakes. It's just that when I do need a new rotor surface it means a new rotor, not just a spell in a brake lathe.

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15 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

I don't replace them all that often - I'm very easy on brakes. It's just that when I do need a new rotor surface it means a new rotor, not just a spell in a brake lathe.

So, why whine about it?

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Is that a rhetorical question?

 

 

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Last time I needed brake parts it was pads on a 17 y/o Subaru Forrester w/120K on it..... Of course, I drive defensively, so I don't use the brakes much except in parking lots to come to a complete stop when some asshole with a back up camera pulls out of their parking space right in front of me...

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It makes a difference when you live in a wet, mountainous area.

The cops in my area have to have special, ultra hard pads or their brakes only last a matter of a few months.

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6 hours ago, Monkey said:

 

Edit:  Forgot to ask, why are you burning up rotors so often?  I usually go through five or six sets of pads before I even see enough wear to worry about rotors. My current car has 43K miles on it, of which a lot involved track days at a brake killing road coarse. I’m still on the factory discs. 

My BMW would go through rotors and pads at the same rate. About 25,000 miles.  The stuff was soft. Awesome braking though. Lots of carbon, if I remember right.

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3 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

It makes a difference when you live in a wet, mountainous area.

The cops in my area have to have special, ultra hard pads or their brakes only last a matter of a few months.

Like Vermont, coastal Connecticut, or coastal Northern California..... Check.

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I've worked in the lease/finance industry for 15 or so years, mainly in passenger vehicle and commercial truck leasing. It's a great tool if you can deduct some or all of the finance payments as a business expense.

 

If you go down the route of a fully maintained lease through a deduction from your pre-tax salary (which is popular here in Australia) then it's a great tool if you're bad at budgeting. You don't get that "whoops, the rego and insurance are due and I don't have the $1500 to shell out" moment - it's all included in the cost from the finance company. Plus fuel, servicing, tyres etc. So you don't really have an excuse to not change the tyres or get the timing belt changed when it falls due.

 

I personally leased all my cars even if I couldn't write off the payments, as I like flipping my cars every 4 years. Knowing that there is a balloon/residual at the end of the term is OK if you're careful with your cars... and I am. So I know that even though the final balloon is maybe $10k still owing to the bank, if I can take my well maintained and straight body car, flip it to a private buyer or car yard for $12k (using the profit to take the missus away for the weekend) and then lease the new model then it works for me.

 

Plus - if I was going to finance under a personal loan arrangement and make 10x $1 payment to drive a Hyundai 4KSB, or I was happy to lease and make 10x $0.60 payments plus 1x $4 payment instead, then I could (and did) make 10x $1 payments plus 1x $4 payment to drive a Subaru WRX instead of the Hyundai.

 

BUT.... as mentioned above you've got to look after the car, otherwise the bank is going to nail your ass to the wall under "fair wear and tear" guidelines. I think of my cars as a big, expensive DVD rental (pre-Netflix). I borrow it, I look after it and I return it on time in good condition then I'm all ok. If my kid scratches the bejesus out of it, then I'm going to be paying for a looooong time.

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