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Meat Wad

9 yrs and no more attempts??

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It may seem that the traditionalists feel that Land Sailing is much like Kite Boarding.................it's not really sailing.

 

 

Sailing:
Any Craft on land, water, ice or in the air, that uses a Soft or Hard Foil that creates a pressure differential to create lift is sailing.

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35 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

It may seem that the traditionalists feel that Land Sailing is much like Kite Boarding.................it's not really sailing.

 

 

Sailing:
Any Craft on land, water, ice or in the air, that uses a Soft or Hard Foil that creates a pressure differential to create lift is sailing.

Sorry bud - disagree with you there.  Land "Sailing" is just as much sailing as hang gliding, parachuting, flying glider planes and the like - as in not at all.

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If that thing was floating no-one would question it was sailing.

Which it is.

No different than ice boats.

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The difference between sailing and Landsailing is that landsailing is much faster, much more thrilling, and way more fun than wet sailing. My $3000 Manta twin had roughly the same performance envelope as the AC72 foilers except it's a bit faster .

Every sailor should get some seat time in a dirt boat or ice boat.

Seriously, it's a revelation. 

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my very experienced monohull sailing friend told me once that apparent wind sailing is a different sport! (as in skiffs, cats or anything that would not carry a symmetrical spinnaker DDW)

in the end, I tend to agree, if it feels different enough that people would never entertain trying, then you can say it´s a different sport  

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3 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

Any Craft on land, water, ice or in the air, that uses a Soft or Hard Foil that creates a pressure differential to create lift is sailing.

Alrighty then. <_<

For example: 

project-903-image1.jpg

Or:

91625-004-D4934C18.jpg

Or:

Stearman-N63301.jpg

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20 minutes ago, Svanen said:

Alrighty then. <_<

For example:

91625-004-D4934C18.jpg

 

Yep - SAILplane.

The other two were powered.

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Doesn’t matter, though: according to our friend Meat Wad’s definition, “sailing” requires only the use of a foil to create lift.

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26 minutes ago, Svanen said:

Doesn’t matter, though: according to our friend Meat Wad’s definition, “sailing” requires only the use of a foil to create lift.

Its worth adding the rider that it must also make use of the difference in velocity between the surface it rests on or in and air moving relatively to it. A glider, for example, doesn't do that, it uses gravity and air.

So water and air, land and air, ice and air its all about using lift devices to extract energy from the difference in velocity of the two media.

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1 hour ago, JimC said:

Its worth adding the rider that ...

Refer to post #1. :P Too late to change the definition now!

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On 5/16/2018 at 11:05 AM, jackolantern said:

Someone should tell the US navy that their nuclear powered subs have a sail and are actually sailboats according to Dawg

 

1848F3EA-512C-4603-9F50-FD6E0BCBC56D.gif

On 5/16/2018 at 11:55 AM, monsoon said:

Does the wind make it go?  Then, sweet.

If it produces enough lift to move with out the reactor powered up yes, that it is sailing.
But somehow I doubt it.
Nice try

 

 

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12 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

If it produces enough lift to move with out the reactor powered up yes, that it is sailing.
But somehow I doubt it.
Nice try

I think that this and other example were provided to show the weakness in your original definition.

The problem was that it made no mention of being wind powdered:

On 5/16/2018 at 12:21 PM, Meat Wad said:

Sailing:
Any Craft on land, water, ice or in the air, that uses a Soft or Hard Foil that creates a pressure differential to create lift is sailing.

The sub has several hard foils  which create pressure differentials to create lift, including the props. This definition doesn't seem to preclude turning the foils with a nuclear reactor.

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13 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

I think that this and other example were provided to show the weakness in your original definition.

The problem was that it made no mention of being wind powdered:

The sub has several hard foils  which create pressure differentials to create lift, including the props. This definition doesn't seem to preclude turning the foils with a nuclear reactor.

You and the other naysayers are so literal that I am thinking either you are in high school or an attorney. According to you Airplane racing should be in the sailing Olympics. Seems a great way to destroy sailing.

I should have said:

Quote

Any Craft on land, water, ice or in the air, that uses only a Soft or Hard Foil that creates a pressure differential to create lift and thus provide thrust for the purpose of propulsion is sailing.

You know my comment was against those who do not consider anything other than traditional sailing, as Sailing. Nonn of the other instances provided by you guys is sailing and you know it.
Keep it up and we will destroy our sport from within.

But the question still remains, With all the money spent on going extremely slow why has no one tried to go after the 126.4 certified record.
And yes, I know Ice boating is faster but getting the right conditions is really tough compared to the Dry Lake of Ivanpah and I have not heard of a certified Ice boating record. Though I have not really looked because I hate being cold.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

You and the other naysayers are so literal that I am thinking either you are in high school or an attorney. According to you Airplane racing should be in the sailing Olympics. Seems a great way to destroy sailing.

I'm not a naysayer at all, I actually fully agree with your position on this.

I just read the thread its full of people who read your definition and threw out examples that fit it, but totally went against your intention, I was pointing out why the thread took the direction it did, sorry I offended you by offering an explanation. Posts #14 through #17 are a good example of how this got derailed.

 

In my experience understanding why things happen helps to ensure that they don't happen the same way again, whereas simply insulting people who offer suggestions tends not to improve anything.

 

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After over 50 years sailing just about anything I have to say that I now find water sailing to be slow, boring and way wetter compared to my Blokart.

I've done 85kph on a narrow beach in my Blokart and that compares with any ride I ever had water sailing. And it's a heap cheaper.

Was that record at Ivanpah in MPH?

Any confirmation of the 'new' Blokart record? I've heard some wild figures but seen no talk or vids.

 

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6 minutes ago, cosmicsedso said:

After over 50 years sailing just about anything I have to say that I now find water sailing to be slow, boring and way wetter compared to my Blokart.

I've done 85kph on a narrow beach in my Blokart and that compares with any ride I ever had water sailing. And it's a heap cheaper.

Was that record at Ivanpah in MPH?

Any confirmation of the 'new' Blokart record? I've heard some wild figures but seen no talk or vids.

 

Yes indeed.

126+ mph

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6 hours ago, cosmicsedso said:

After over 50 years sailing just about anything I have to say that I now find water sailing to be slow, boring and way wetter compared to my Blokart.

I've done 85kph on a narrow beach in my Blokart and that compares with any ride I ever had water sailing. And it's a heap cheaper.

Was that record at Ivanpah in MPH?

Any confirmation of the 'new' Blokart record? I've heard some wild figures but seen no talk or vids.

 

Hmmm - I have a rig for a windsurfer in my garage - knowing nothing about the BloKarts - would this be enough sail area to make a trike cart go? 

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59 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Hmmm - I have a rig for a windsurfer in my garage - knowing nothing about the BloKarts - would this be enough sail area to make a trike cart go? 

Windsurfer rig works just fine on a mountain board.

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43 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Mountain Board - like a big skateboard w/offroad wheels? 

 

Yup,   

Last tried it on the beach at weston super mare..... ton of fun.

Ive used the kite with it much more, also a lot of fun.

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2 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

Yup,   

Last tried it on the beach at weston super mare..... ton of fun.

Ive used the kite with it much more, also a lot of fun.

I used to skate a LOT as a kid - dating myself with this, but, my 1st board was a Bahne deck, with spring excalibur trucks, and sims pure juice wheels.  I'm 52 now, and my back's a little brittle after getting off a motorcycle before I intended to a couple years ago.  I like the idea of the kart, but, not sure I could do the board anymore. 

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54 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

I used to skate a LOT as a kid - dating myself with this, but, my 1st board was a Bahne deck, with spring excalibur trucks, and sims pure juice wheels.  I'm 52 now, and my back's a little brittle after getting off a motorcycle before I intended to a couple years ago.  I like the idea of the kart, but, not sure I could do the board anymore. 

You only have one year on me...... but I understand the concern.

The blokart looks like a good option for a buggy,

If you want to blat around on a tricycle kart, personally I would stick with a traction kite rather than a sail rig, stability is less of a concern as the kite just applies a direct traction with no applied moment at the connection point.

 

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1 minute ago, JohnMB said:

You only have one year on me...... but I understand the concern.

The blokart looks like a good option for a buggy,

If you want to blat around on a tricycle kart, personally I would stick with a traction kite rather than a sail rig, stability is less of a concern as the kite just applies a direct traction with no applied moment at the connection point.

 

I understand that - good point, and thanks for taking the time to entertain the question! 

 

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2 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Is that at Tonopah? 

Ivanpah

I-15 at the CA/NV border

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1 hour ago, Dorado said:

Yup

Dirtboat Heaven

Gotta be cheaper than taking race bikes to Bonneville - it looks like a blast, but, I think empty parking lots will be the only place around here for me to play with such a thing. 

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10 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Hmmm - I have a rig for a windsurfer in my garage - knowing nothing about the BloKarts - would this be enough sail area to make a trike cart go? 

Sail area is not rhe final consideration to going fast(er)

At higher speeds drag is the problem, so generally the more wind = smaller sails.

The fastest speeds in a Blokart come when using the 2sqm sail!

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18 hours ago, cosmicsedso said:

After over 50 years sailing just about anything I have to say that I now find water sailing to be slow, boring and way wetter compared to my Blokart.

I've done 85kph on a narrow beach in my Blokart and that compares with any ride I ever had water sailing. And it's a heap cheaper.

Was that record at Ivanpah in MPH?

Any confirmation of the 'new' Blokart record? I've heard some wild figures but seen no talk or vids.

 

There is no actual verification of a Blokart Record, as you need multiple devices recording that have been tested and verified as accurate.

Having said that, I know the people who claim to have the new record and I doubt they are lying. But it is not verifiable.per a real recordable record.

I think we need a "Mavericks" type event at Ivanpah with a proper weather forecaster sending a call out for the BIG WIND., Complete with courses and GPS along with timed distances to verify. Judges will be needed. Of course this would all cost money which, the land sailing group who are just a bunch of desert rats who have given up the expensive sport of sailing on water, do not want to spend. So finding something marketable would be the key in making this happen. Call it a Speed Week over a period of time.

Yes, time would be needed.

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On 5/24/2018 at 8:15 PM, Meat Wad said:

There is no actual verification of a Blokart Record, as you need multiple devices recording that have been tested and verified as accurate.

Having said that, I know the people who claim to have the new record and I doubt they are lying. But it is not verifiable.per a real recordable record.

I think we need a "Mavericks" type event at Ivanpah with a proper weather forecaster sending a call out for the BIG WIND., Complete with courses and GPS along with timed distances to verify. Judges will be needed. Of course this would all cost money which, the land sailing group who are just a bunch of desert rats who have given up the expensive sport of sailing on water, do not want to spend. So finding something marketable would be the key in making this happen. Call it a Speed Week over a period of time.

Yes, time would be needed.

Slight tangent, but your point w/r/t the accuracy/verifiability of speed records,  take a look at how it's done in the Land Speed Racing circles - measured distances, timing lights accurate to 1/1000th of a second. 

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On 5/24/2018 at 5:34 AM, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Hmmm - I have a rig for a windsurfer in my garage - knowing nothing about the BloKarts - would this be enough sail area to make a trike cart go? 

No No No, you have tons of reasearch to due.

The blokart doing 77mph is at the far extremes and typically it will be a heavier person to keep the craft from being blown around.

The greenbird added 700 lbs of ballast to keep it on the ground in order to hit the 126.4 mph verified record.

But going with a mini Skeeter or the French designed Standart can get you class sailing and the capability of reaching consistend 60 to 70 mph with the extremes being closer to 90 to 100 mph. It all depends on how hard you want to push it.

Green BIrd

greenbirdrecord-ed01.jpg

Mini Skeeter

Augustin.jpg

Standart

photo-634709589989345207-1.jpg?dummy=0&c

Almost unlimited Class

62999361468521993159.jpg

 

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On 5/29/2018 at 7:18 AM, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Slight tangent, but your point w/r/t the accuracy/verifiability of speed records,  take a look at how it's done in the Land Speed Racing circles - measured distances, timing lights accurate to 1/1000th of a second. 

The vehicles that provide their own thrust are slightly different than the wind powered.

First, when you start of on a run powered by the wind and accelerate, the wind goes forward and you have to bear off.
As the speed increases and the apparent wind moves forward you bear off more.
I do not think having a set timed distance would be  good for land sailing records as the course would be a big curve and that curve would be different for other crafts also.

Having companies like Garmin and Velocitek provide calibrated and verified speed measuring devices would be the way to go.
Good advertising too.

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15 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

The vehicles that provide their own thrust are slightly different than the wind powered.

First, when you start of on a run powered by the wind and accelerate, the wind goes forward and you have to bear off.
As the speed increases and the apparent wind moves forward you bear off more.
I do not think having a set timed distance would be  good for land sailing records as the course would be a big curve and that curve would be different for other crafts also.

Having companies like Garmin and Velocitek provide calibrated and verified speed measuring devices would be the way to go.
Good advertising too.

Excellent points - I hadn't considered that the "track" would vary greatly during the event.  

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18 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

The vehicles that provide their own thrust are slightly different than the wind powered.

First, when you start of on a run powered by the wind and accelerate, the wind goes forward and you have to bear off.
As the speed increases and the apparent wind moves forward you bear off more.
I do not think having a set timed distance would be  good for land sailing records as the course would be a big curve and that curve would be different for other crafts also.

Having companies like Garmin and Velocitek provide calibrated and verified speed measuring devices would be the way to go.
Good advertising too.

Weymouth speed week moved to GPS at some point. Seems to work well for them.

The course is like a fan, narrow start gate and limited angles allowed.

 

main objective is to not have high speed craft crossing each other

 

 

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2 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

Weymouth speed week moved to GPS at some point. Seems to work well for them.

The course is like a fan, narrow start gate and limited angles allowed.

 

Do they allow multiple craft on the course at the same time or do they wait util the course is clear for the next one?

 

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32 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

Do they allow multiple craft on the course at the same time or do they wait util the course is clear for the next one?

 

info is here

https://www.speedsailing.com/

and

https://www.weymouthspeedweek.com/images/PDFdocuments/Event_Guide_2017.pdf

Its a 500m course, with a 100m lead in.there can only be one competitor in the lead in area at a time, which does allow for more than one competitor on the course.

 

Old school weymouth was a circular course with timers, and you picked your angle to cross the course.

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