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I was taught as a kid that if you can’t say anything nice then don’t say anything at all....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

oops, failed again.

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It's like they started building the main from the bottom up and realized they needed to reach the masthead at some point right about the time they fit the second batten pocket on ....

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1 hour ago, Major Tom said:

I was taught as a kid that if you can’t say anything nice then don’t say anything at all....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

oops, failed again.

Channeling Teddy Roosevelt’s daughter 

Her famous White House party quote was “If you don’t have anything good to say, sit next to me so we can talk!”

The owner in the pictures is responsible for the sail design and the inspiration for more like them. He knows his stuff and has been racing since the 50’s. It’s innovative and the boat performed exceptionally well today with the blade jib and shifty winds out of the west at 5-9 knots with 2 aboard the X-21.

Some major players were involved with this project and the next set of sails for a Turbo project on an old one design are even more extreme and expected to be successful on the beercan race course this summer.

I’ll post a couple of videos from today on YouTube and link them here later. I have to launch the new family tender for my daughters and figure out how to rig a snotter to a sprit rig. 

They love the word Snotter!

 

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Iskareen had a main like this once. Apparently there is no lower girth measurement in the 8mR rule.

Iskareen+and+venture+II+Card.jpg

 

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That’s interesting to see! Thanks for providing the picture.

Launching  a Turbo project Sunday or Monday with even more extreme sail area. Finishing up the Awlwood for the benches and coamings today

884CBFC3-B406-4A74-A598-B18A6F5112A4.jpeg

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On 5/23/2018 at 1:48 PM, jackolantern said:

It's like they started building the main from the bottom up and realized they needed to reach the masthead at some point right about the time they fit the second batten pocket on ....

missing_the_point_SA.png

Ever have your top battens refuse to tack through your backstay?
Unwilling to give up the allowable roach?

This would be a solution...

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5 hours ago, Somebody Else said:

missing_the_point_SA.png

Ever have your top battens refuse to tack through your backstay?
Unwilling to give up the allowable roach?

This would be a solution...

But a bad one if you are interested in decent aerodynamics and proper twist. Please do not buy into this nonsense, it makes a bad sail.

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On 6/8/2018 at 5:31 PM, A3A said:

But a bad one if you are interested in decent aerodynamics and proper twist. Please do not buy into this nonsense, it makes a bad sail.

You're just making that up.

 

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On 6/8/2018 at 5:31 PM, A3A said:

But a bad one if you are interested in decent aerodynamics and proper twist. Please do not buy into this nonsense, it makes a bad sail.

it can be done right

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We’ll see how the boat performs this Wednesday night vs the competition. 

A3a, the guy Sailing has been around a looonnngg time so I think he has some good ideas about sail design and trim.

Stinky, we shall see about that and Kevlar, that’s an idea that may be correct. But he maybe going to a 3stay rig and a fat top main if it doesn’t work as well as planned. 

The sails were definitely designed to push he envelope a bit. Another boat is being launched today with even more “shape”, so we’ll see what peeps have to say about it as well. Racing it Wednesday night and hope to keep up with J/22’s and an few others that were showing us transoms last summer 

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21 hours ago, Parma said:

it can be done right

Sure, you can execute this concept perfectly, but it still is the wrong plan form for sail performance. 

15 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

We’ll see how the boat performs this Wednesday night vs the competition. 

A3a, the guy Sailing has been around a looonnngg time so I think he has some good ideas about sail design and trim.

Stinky, we shall see about that and Kevlar, that’s an idea that may be correct. But he maybe going to a 3stay rig and a fat top main if it doesn’t work as well as planned. 

The sails were definitely designed to push he envelope a bit. Another boat is being launched today with even more “shape”, so we’ll see what peeps have to say about it as well. Racing it Wednesday night and hope to keep up with J/22’s and an few others that were showing us transoms last summer 

I've been around a "looonngg" time too. 55 years of sailing and 44 of sailmaking in fact. Except for clearing the backstay easily, this concept has no aerodynamic basis at all. There are dozens of articles, books and threads to explain why, but it's easier to look on the race course. Virtually all performance mainsails today are the complete opposite: fat heads. 

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OK, so if an owner tells you he wants max sail area and will not get rid of permanent backstay, what's YOUR solution??????

 

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48 minutes ago, longy said:

OK, so if an owner tells you he wants max sail area and will not get rid of permanent backstay, what's YOUR solution??????

 

Synthetic backstay with a flicker for a start

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Since the rig has in-line spreaders, the B/S will always have tension on it. Try again.

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2 hours ago, A3A said:

Sure, you can execute this concept perfectly, but it still is the wrong plan form for sail performance. 

I've been around a "looonngg" time too. 55 years of sailing and 44 of sailmaking in fact. Except for clearing the backstay easily, this concept has no aerodynamic basis at all. There are dozens of articles, books and threads to explain why, but it's easier to look on the race course. Virtually all performance mainsails today are the complete opposite: fat heads. 

or big heads

I put in a crane, flicker & synthetic to achieve a 15" headboard w/diagonal top batten to support the roach

faster?

don't know, but it looks way cool

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3 hours ago, longy said:

OK, so if an owner tells you he wants max sail area and will not get rid of permanent backstay, what's YOUR solution??????

 

Hey, I want to be rich but I want to keep working in the marine industry........Some problems don't have solutions, just compromises. A lost art in today's world.......

Define "max sail area". Mainsails are generally measured by girths and then a formula uses those to calculate a rated area. So if Max Area = Max Rated Area, you are rated for what you have. If the rule is any good, you get credit for the smaller roach. If a sail with a traditional 38% top 1/4 girth overlaps more than about 10-15 cm, I would look at ditching the full battens at the top and a 5 leech batten configuration. The FB  are what causes the sail to not tack. 

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From the picture posted, they made a sail with the maximum area that would tack past the B/S, without regard to rules. How would you achieve the same SA in a more aero efficient shape (as you claim) without any mods to the rig?

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1 hour ago, longy said:

From the picture posted, they made a sail with the maximum area that would tack past the B/S, without regard to rules. How would you achieve the same SA in a more aero efficient shape (as you claim) without any mods to the rig?

crane & diagonal top batten to support the roach

b/c it's inline, no flicker

 

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So I put a 15” crane on the back of my 2008 Ensign “Turbo” and launched it with new carbon blend sails 20 minutes before the start and had my nephew helping me screw down cheek blocks for the blade jib at the start. We came in 2nd across the line and kicked ass against a fleet of 20. The race ended and we stayed out for another hour to tweak a few things and we were the only ones out there. Lots of compliments and folks asking for rides next Wednesday when we got back,  so I guess radical designs and rigs attract some positive attention. 

We beat the hell out of the usual crowd but brother at the helm let an Ensign slip under him and run the other side of the river to beat us. I disagreed with his decision, but I wasn’t driving this time...we came in 2nd...

15E38CEE-946D-48D4-B262-9211E4558680.jpeg

91969CE2-FCB9-46C6-B1F8-019B336B0CBC.jpeg

266801D7-C33C-49D8-A947-1FC4DC59BE33.jpeg

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Robby loved it and him and his young buds all want to ride on an Ensign now. No more shitting on Ensigns at our club!

34C7A68A-F60B-4886-BE2F-1F1C5049A255.jpeg

EAF8C069-1E7C-4232-91CD-39B37E178AD4.jpeg

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I’ll have to see how the x21 finished. They were ahead for a while and got gassed by a Beneteau 34 that sat on them for the better part of a leg. He was able to fend off the j-22’s and S2 with ease and the rig looked great as well. 

I can understand A3a’s argument, but after last night, there may be a paradigm shift in how to rig and sail a formerly one design keel boat.

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On 6/8/2018 at 8:31 PM, A3A said:

But a bad one if you are interested in decent aerodynamics and proper twist. Please do not buy into this nonsense, it makes a bad sail.

You are flat out wrong.

We both proved it last night to the boats with the white Dacron triangles. 

Even the peeps that don’t like me(there are a few) were impressed with the sails even more than the boat restoration itself. 

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9 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

Team Red and Ronstad sails.

Thanks Skip Moorehouse!!! I love the sails!

That’s Sobstad sails...I was autocorrected 

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2 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

You are flat out wrong.

We both proved it last night to the boats with the white Dacron triangles. 

Even the peeps that don’t like me(there are a few) were impressed with the sails even more than the boat restoration itself. 

So everything else about the fleet was identical, other than your new sails?

...

 

I'll be convinced when you loan the sails to the guy who came last and he wins the next race.

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Other than me and the x-22 and his new sails, everything was identical. 

We beat the Ensign that wins every week and the j22 across the line. I want everyone with an Ensign or any other boat with weather helm and a too large Genoa #1 to try the sails, I think they are winners. We never even got to time the rig and we were flying. I’ll take it out this weekend and tune it up and see how things go.

In 6 knots last night, the ensigns with the #1 will move faster and I can point higher, but at 8 and up the boat takes them and overwhelms them downwind due to the larger mainsail.

 

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On 6/8/2018 at 11:54 AM, Sail4beer said:

That’s interesting to see! Thanks for providing the picture.

Launching  a Turbo project Sunday or Monday with even more extreme sail area. Finishing up the Awlwood for the benches and coamings today

884CBFC3-B406-4A74-A598-B18A6F5112A4.jpeg

I thought you were making the worlds finest hiking racks, then I saw the photo down thread.

Nice work.

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2 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

Other than me and the x-22 and his new sails, everything was identical. 

We beat the Ensign that wins every week and the j22 across the line. I want everyone with an Ensign or any other boat with weather helm and a too large Genoa #1 to try the sails, I think they are winners. We never even got to time the rig and we were flying. I’ll take it out this weekend and tune it up and see how things go.

In 6 knots last night, the ensigns with the #1 will move faster and I can point higher, but at 8 and up the boat takes them and overwhelms them downwind due to the larger mainsail.

 

Good to hear they are working for you. 

Can you expand on how a roachier main and smaller Genoa helps with weather helm?  

Unless they are falling over in 8 knots, this is all arseabouts unless your main is falling open so far the back half isn't working.

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15 minutes ago, Rohanoz said:

Can you expand on how a roachier main and smaller Genoa helps with weather helm?  

Yeah, me too.

My guess is that the old sails were baggier and just pitching the boat over, weather helm by way of bow wave, rather than from shifting the sailplan's CE aft.

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I assume that this design sail is working in really light conditions where the extra roach low down on the sail helps generate early weather helm which makes it easier to feel if the boat is in the groove, however, if the breeze is up there is going to be some horrible hinging at the front of the lower batten as the leach tries to fall off to lee, not going to look pretty at all, especially if the main is travelled down with a lot of sheet tension and a bit of back winding from the headsail.

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The X-22 was a one design that didn’t get too far. It tried to compete with the Ensign and J-24 and the marketing approach was that you don’t need a cabin on a racing sailboat. I took my guy 2 years to finally find one for sale. 

The Ensign has a cutaway forefoot keel and the #1 generates massive weather helm and causes the boat to heel excessively. It is crewed by 4 and is a strict one design class. After Sailing one for nearly 40 years I wanted to do something to the boat to improve it's Sailing characteristics and make it raceable shorthanded.

The original rig had a working job but the fleets in Long Island Sound came up with the #1 and the spinnaker due to the lack of wind in the summer. In Barnegat Bay where I sail, we have consistent wind (sea breeze) usually between 8-15 knots. The boats added hiking straps and a tiller extension so the crew could keep the 3,000 lb. boat under control, which wasn’t really under control at all. All the boats would heel 20+ degrees and sail sideways.

We re-designed the sail plan and rig to be as close to stock one design as possible to keep costs down. We also configured the sailplan to have less square footage-especially forward of the mast and keel and wanted to be able to sail with only 2 or 3 if needed.

 

 

D4DF181F-0E24-420F-9E19-483526D354E2.jpeg

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On 6/8/2018 at 12:07 PM, Somebody Else said:

missing_the_point_SA.png

Ever have your top battens refuse to tack through your backstay?
Unwilling to give up the allowable roach?

This would be a solution...

I know! I Know!  Dual Running backs!  No standing back stay!

What could go wrong???

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If there is one shape (platform) of an air foil that is most efficient, why are there so many different wing shapes on aircraft in the same class?

Cessna vs Mooney

F-14 vs F-15

P-51 vs Corsair

Etc, etc...

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On June 13, 2018 at 3:27 PM, longy said:

OK, so if an owner tells you he wants max sail area and will not get rid of permanent backstay, what's YOUR solution??????

 

A little bit of back stay overlap will blow through most of the time. Go with a 'clean' batten adjuster at the pocket...I like RBS's fittings. Velcro closures are more apt to hang up. Non full length battens will blow through even easier.    My own experience is that you can poke the main leech profile a little bit here and there, but generally should stick to a pretty fair curve. There's been all kinds of 'fads' over the years that try to max out unmeasured sail area, but then they fall out of favor. Sticking to the basics is bland and boring, but it always seems to work.

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On 6/16/2018 at 5:16 AM, Crash said:

If there is one shape (platform) of an air foil that is most efficient, why are there so many different wing shapes on aircraft in the same class?

Cessna vs Mooney

F-14 vs F-15

P-51 vs Corsair

Etc, etc...

Because all of these "solutions" are compromises.    They are each designed to deal with the limitations that the buyer/owner is willing to put up with.   F-14 - complication of variable sweep wing to slow the plane down to do landings/launches on a carrier vs F-15 which uses long land based runways.   F-15 with conformal tanks can fly farther than an F-14 without having to refuel aerially as often, because it is not carrying the weight of swing wings and reenforcement for carrier work.

Same with sailboats.  There may be an 'ideal' shape, but the compromises force deviations away from that ideal for performance or price considerations.

- Stumbling

PS - I could rattle on about the differences of each of those plane pairs and any number of others, but I bit my Aspie tongue, and showed restraint.

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Actually, that was exactly the point I was trying to get across/highlight. I asked it as a question as it seems there where some folks upthread implying there’s only one fast planform (fathead) for a sailplan. 

As you said, there may be an ideal shape, but customer requirements force compromise from that shape for a range of reasons.  

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The Ensign sails aren't class legal. What rating hit - if any - does this configuration take?

Why aren't they class legal?

  • No full battens allowed.
  • Cloth weight and type specified is 5oz Dacron
  • Headboard limited to 4"
  • Battens in the jib are also oversized

I can't tell about the mainsail's midgirth without measuring it. Does it exceed the class minimum?

I think that for club racing, such experimentation is great, but it should come at some price. What price is the question.

Your crane extension and oversized headboard add weight aloft for very little gain, so that's  a net wash.

Your cloth choice should reflect lighter weight, so a net gain.

Your added sail area, though better served in another configuration is also a net gain.

In my opinion, you should owe a stock Ensign 3 to 6 seconds a mile depending on how anal is your rating committee. What does your club think?

 

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We’ll see about those points in the next week or two. I know that I am violating class rules. I’m Sailing PHRF and omitting the large headsail and spinnaker on purpose. I’ve sailed 30 years+ on them and I don’t think there’s any need for going on deck to set or gybe a spinnaker or douse a number 1 Genoa. I also want to be able to take out people with limited mobility for fun and working winches and pulling long lines to achieve the same boatspeed of about 4-5 knots is not worth the energy. And as a plus, you can get rid of a crew member or 2 so you can still sail with 2. 

Not trying to reinvent the wheel, but this boat can sail offwind well from the comfort of the cockpit and not suffer abuse to weather.

And no weather helm/ brake

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