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duncan (the other one)

Rules Question: Time limit for protests, but not race finish..

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Ok - so I'm boning up on the SI's for an upcoming (long) race.

There's a modification to RRS 61.3 - time limit on protests (time/date) which may be exceeded by the tail end of the fleet if the weather doesn't comply.

So as I read it, some of the fleet may effectively be barred from lodging a protest if its a slow race.  WTF ?

Here's the actual wording (time and date changed to attempt some level of anonymity).

Note - there is no finish time limit for the race.

From the SI's:

.. Changes to RRS

..

  • RRS 61.3: There is no time limit on protests by the Race Committee or the National Jury. No other protests may be delivered after HH hours on DD MM YY , except when seeking redress. In that event, the time limit will be three hours after the protesting boat finishes. The Protest Committee may not extend the time for delivery of a protest lodged under the provisions of this clause.

 

I'm thinking the only out (if the situation were to eventuate) - is to claim redress: RRS 62.1 a) as an improper action by the organising authority, then work from there.

 

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Protest committee must hear every protest to determine validity. They can extend the time limit. 

 

61.3The protest committee shall extend the time if there is good reason to do so.

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Not sure of the Legalistic jargon and what the various national prescriptions etc might state, and whether the OA can in effect change fundamentals of the RRS.

If there's no time limit to the finish, then the race in effect ends when the last boat finishes, withdraws, is found to have withdrawn, or is somehow declared on eternal patrol... 

A practical time limit in the SI would be when any boats not yet having finished, are no longer able to effect their finishing position due to handicap; but even then

a boat that was fouled and as a result forced to sail farther/slower would have a valid complaint and the right to protest in a timely manner. 

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2 hours ago, duncan (the other one) said:

SI ... The Protest Committee may not extend the time for delivery of a protest lodged under the provisions of this clause.

I think you're right that in this instance the Sailing Instructions supersede the language or RRS 63.1 and prohibit the RC from extending the time limit.

Rules 85 and 86 discuss which RRS rules may be changed, and as I read it the RC can change 63.1. I think, if it wanted to, RC could eliminate protests altogether through the NOR or SIs.

Since the change to rule 63.1 by the SIs is allowed under rule 86 this wouldn't constitute an improper act or omission by the RC, so no cause for redress.

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15 hours ago, TJSoCal said:

I think you're right that in this instance the Sailing Instructions supersede the language or RRS 63.1 and prohibit the RC from extending the time limit.

Rules 85 and 86 discuss which RRS rules may be changed, and as I read it the RC can change 63.1. I think, if it wanted to, RC could eliminate protests altogether through the NOR or SIs.

Since the change to rule 63.1 by the SIs is allowed under rule 86 this wouldn't constitute an improper act or omission by the RC, so no cause for redress.

Agreed.

I think they can do this, but I don't think this is a good thing for the Race Committee to do.  The normal deadline would be X hours after the last boat has finished or retired.  X being a reasonable time for boats to get ashore, write a protest form out and submit to the RC.

Maybe there is a history of tail end boat filing spurious protests which waste a lot of time and effort for no purpose, this is the only vaguely sensible reason I can come up with for this wording.

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First, let me get this out of the way: this is a terrible SI - the possibilities for perpetrating real injustices are manifold, and the potential for bad feeling is prominent. There are plenty of other ways to solve a late protest problem, and effectively prohibiting protests from a portion of the fleet is not a good solution.

That said, I believe the change is likely improperly implemented, and is therefore invalid, particularly if it appears in the SI only. My reasoning is as follows:

RRS 85.1 says "A change to a rule shall refer specifically to it and state the change...."
RRS 86.1(b) says (in relevant part) that the rules of Part 7 are not among those that may be changed (with specific exceptions expressly permitted by either WS or an MNA).
RRS 89.2(a) (in Part 7) says the OA "shall publish a notice of race that conforms to Rule J1."
RRS 89.2(b) (in Part 7) says "The notice of race may be changed provided adequate notice is given."
RRS J1.2 says "The notice of race shall include any of the following that will apply and that would help competitors decide whether to attend the event or that conveys other information they will need before the sailing instructions become available:
          (1) changes to the racing rules permitted by Rule 86, referring specifically to each rule and stating the change...."

Case 121 discusses the procedure for changing a racing rule in detail. It says (in relevant part);
          "The following procedure must be followed:...
               (4) The organizing authority is required by Rule 89..2(a) to publish a notice of race that conforms to Rule J1. Under Rule J1.2(1), the organizing authority must decide whether knowledge of a change would help competitors decide whether to attend the event... If so, the change in the racing rule must be stated twice, in the notice of race and in the sailing instructions."
--------------
First, I would argue that the change as described in the OP fails to meet the specificity requirements of 85.1. I don't think it's adequately clear how the text given in the SI relates to the text in the rulebook: Is it added? Does it replace all or some of the rule in the book? An inadequately specific change is invalid.

More importantly, I submit that any rule change that effectively prohibits some portion of the fleet from availing itself of the protection of the RRS is sufficiently significant to make a huge difference to a competitor in deciding whether or not to attend the regatta. Therefore, it must be stated in both SI and NOR, so as to allow competitors to make that judgement in time. Any change that occurs after competitors must make arrangements to attend is a problem, and if it doesn't appear in the NOR at all, it fails the requirements set forth in RRS 89.2(b) and Case 121.

I think Duncan's right - the proper way to proceed would be to claim an improper action or omission on the part of the OA, and request redress, in the form of invalidating that SI and allowing a protest to be filed.

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10 hours ago, Katydid said:

First, let me get this out of the way: this is a terrible SI - the possibilities for perpetrating real injustices are manifold, and the potential for bad feeling is prominent. There are plenty of other ways to solve a late protest problem, and effectively prohibiting protests from a portion of the fleet is not a good solution.

That said, I believe the change is likely improperly implemented, and is therefore invalid, particularly if it appears in the SI only. My reasoning is as follows:

RRS 85.1 says "A change to a rule shall refer specifically to it and state the change...."

The SI cites rule 63.1 by number, sets a protest time limit and eliminates the PC's option to extend the time limit. Seems clear and specific. Although I guess the clearest way to do it and maybe a best practice would be to replace the rule text in its entirety.


RRS 86.1(b) says (in relevant part) that the rules of Part 7 are not among those that may be changed (with specific exceptions expressly permitted by either WS or an MNA).

But 63.1 is a rule of part 5, and also states specifically that the SIs can state the protest time limit.


RRS 89.2(a) (in Part 7) says the OA "shall publish a notice of race that conforms to Rule J1."
RRS 89.2(b) (in Part 7) says "The notice of race may be changed provided adequate notice is given."

No indication that the NOR was not conforming, or that the OA changed the NOR.
RRS J1.2 says "The notice of race shall include any of the following that will apply and that would help competitors decide whether to attend the event or that conveys other information they will need before the sailing instructions become available:
          (1) changes to the racing rules permitted by Rule 86, referring specifically to each rule and stating the change...."

Case 121 makes it sound like only rule changes which will impact a decision to enter the race or not must be printed in the NOR, so not necessarily any rule change. Seems likely that the OA did not think this rule change would impact anyone's decision to enter the race so just putting it in the SIs is sufficient.

Case 121 discusses the procedure for changing a racing rule in detail. It says (in relevant part);
          "The following procedure must be followed:...
               (4) The organizing authority is required by Rule 89..2(a) to publish a notice of race that conforms to Rule J1. Under Rule J1.2(1), the organizing authority must decide whether knowledge of a change would help competitors decide whether to attend the event... If so, the change in the racing rule must be stated twice, in the notice of race and in the sailing instructions."
--------------
First, I would argue that the change as described in the OP fails to meet the specificity requirements of 85.1. I don't think it's adequately clear how the text given in the SI relates to the text in the rulebook: Is it added? Does it replace all or some of the rule in the book? An inadequately specific change is invalid.

More importantly, I submit that any rule change that effectively prohibits some portion of the fleet from availing itself of the protection of the RRS is sufficiently significant to make a huge difference to a competitor in deciding whether or not to attend the regatta. Therefore, it must be stated in both SI and NOR, so as to allow competitors to make that judgement in time. Any change that occurs after competitors must make arrangements to attend is a problem, and if it doesn't appear in the NOR at all, it fails the requirements set forth in RRS 89.2(b) and Case 121.

I don't think this change "prohibits" any boat from "availing itself of the protection of the RRS. The SIs presumably state that the race is governed by current RRS. Competitors can still protest violations on the course, and protested boats may still take a penalty on the course under rule 44. A protested boat that declines to do penalty turns would be gambling that the protesting boat would be unable to finish in time to file their protest within the stated time limit. I hardly see any of that as "will I or won't I enter this race" criteria.

I think Duncan's right - the proper way to proceed would be to claim an improper action or omission on the part of the OA, and request redress, in the form of invalidating that SI and allowing a protest to be filed.

 

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7 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

I don't think this change "prohibits" any boat from "availing itself of the protection of the RRS. The SIs presumably state that the race is governed by current RRS. Competitors can still protest violations on the course, and protested boats may still take a penalty on the course under rule 44. A protested boat that declines to do penalty turns would be gambling that the protesting boat would be unable to finish in time to file their protest within the stated time limit. I hardly see any of that as "will I or won't I enter this race" criteria.

You're right that there's no indication one way or another whether this change is also in the NOR, but Duncan did say he was looking at an SI. I'm taking him at his word that it's possible that some portion of the fleet might be prohibited from filing a protest if the weather doesn't cooperate and they finish after the time for protests has passed. Let's assume I'm one of those boats so affected (which would be the only reason for me to file such a request for redress), and I get fouled by a faster boat. They decline to take a penalty (or they cause serious damage or injury, so as to make an on-the-water penalty insufficient).

I want to file a protest, for two reasons; they've broken a rule and screwed up my race, and I may want a hearing to establish fault for my insurance company, which might not compensate me without benefit of a hearing establishing fault. That SI prevents me from doing so, and that's what I mean by "...effectively prohibits some portion of the fleet from availing itself of the protections of the RRS".

If I'm deciding whether or not to attend the regatta, that possibility is definitely one that would figure into my decision (indeed, I wouldn't go if I thought my insurance might not cover me), and therefore needs to be in the NOR in time for me to make that judgement. If I don't find out about the problem until I'm at the venue (or upon having my protest filing rejected as invalid (not timely)), I think that's an improper omission by the OA (or action by the PC, or both), and is redressable.

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1 hour ago, Katydid said:


If I'm deciding whether or not to attend the regatta, that possibility is definitely one that would figure into my decision (indeed, I wouldn't go if I thought my insurance might not cover me), and therefore needs to be in the NOR in time for me to make that judgement. If I don't find out about the problem until I'm at the venue (or upon having my protest filing rejected as invalid (not timely)), I think that's an improper omission by the OA (or action by the PC, or both), and is redressable.

I don't know what kind of redress you'd ask for if your issue is supporting an insurance claim. See rule 62.4 for what you can expect to get out of a grant of redress - I'm not sure that a grant of redress would force the committee to allow an extension of the time limit and/or call a protest hearing.

It seems to me that if you enter a race and then later see in the SI a provision that makes you not want to race, the best option would be to withdraw your entry and request a refund of your entry fee based on non-timely information from the OA. Once you choose to start it seems to me you've accepted the provisions of the SIs. But that would assume that the OA provided sailing instructions before people showed up at the venue if it's a travel regatta.

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On 5/24/2018 at 8:44 AM, duncan (the other one) said:

Ok - so I'm boning up on the SI's for an upcoming (long) race.

There's a modification to RRS 61.3 - time limit on protests (time/date) which may be exceeded by the tail end of the fleet if the weather doesn't comply.

So as I read it, some of the fleet may effectively be barred from lodging a protest if its a slow race.  WTF ?

Here's the actual wording (time and date changed to attempt some level of anonymity).

Note - there is no finish time limit for the race.

From the SI's:

.. Changes to RRS

..

  • RRS 61.3: There is no time limit on protests by the Race Committee or the National Jury. No other protests may be delivered after HH hours on DD MM YY , except when seeking redress. In that event, the time limit will be three hours after the protesting boat finishes. The Protest Committee may not extend the time for delivery of a protest lodged under the provisions of this clause.

 

I'm thinking the only out (if the situation were to eventuate) - is to claim redress: RRS 62.1 a) as an improper action by the organising authority, then work from there.

 

An interesting challenge to deal with if it does occur. Why not assume the OA is well intentioned and constructive. Diplomatically raise the issue with the OA identifying the problem they may have unintentionally set up and offer constructive suggestions to resolve the issue prior to the event.

 

There may be some bizarre logic or Machiavellian plot but I’m guessing the OA was addressing two separate issues without thinking about how they might bump into each other. They might even thank you for pointing out the issue.

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15 hours ago, Katydid said:

First, let me get this out of the way: this is a terrible SI - the possibilities for perpetrating real injustices are manifold, and the potential for bad feeling is prominent. There are plenty of other ways to solve a late protest problem, and effectively prohibiting protests from a portion of the fleet is not a good solution.

That said, I believe the change is likely improperly implemented, and is therefore invalid, particularly if it appears in the SI only. My reasoning is as follows:

RRS 85.1 says "A change to a rule shall refer specifically to it and state the change...."
RRS 86.1(b) says (in relevant part) that the rules of Part 7 are not among those that may be changed (with specific exceptions expressly permitted by either WS or an MNA).
RRS 89.2(a) (in Part 7) says the OA "shall publish a notice of race that conforms to Rule J1."
RRS 89.2(b) (in Part 7) says "The notice of race may be changed provided adequate notice is given."
RRS J1.2 says "The notice of race shall include any of the following that will apply and that would help competitors decide whether to attend the event or that conveys other information they will need before the sailing instructions become available:
          (1) changes to the racing rules permitted by Rule 86, referring specifically to each rule and stating the change...."

Case 121 discusses the procedure for changing a racing rule in detail. It says (in relevant part);
          "The following procedure must be followed:...
               (4) The organizing authority is required by Rule 89..2(a) to publish a notice of race that conforms to Rule J1. Under Rule J1.2(1), the organizing authority must decide whether knowledge of a change would help competitors decide whether to attend the event... If so, the change in the racing rule must be stated twice, in the notice of race and in the sailing instructions."
--------------
First, I would argue that the change as described in the OP fails to meet the specificity requirements of 85.1. I don't think it's adequately clear how the text given in the SI relates to the text in the rulebook: Is it added? Does it replace all or some of the rule in the book? An inadequately specific change is invalid.

More importantly, I submit that any rule change that effectively prohibits some portion of the fleet from availing itself of the protection of the RRS is sufficiently significant to make a huge difference to a competitor in deciding whether or not to attend the regatta. Therefore, it must be stated in both SI and NOR, so as to allow competitors to make that judgement in time. Any change that occurs after competitors must make arrangements to attend is a problem, and if it doesn't appear in the NOR at all, it fails the requirements set forth in RRS 89.2(b) and Case 121.

I think Duncan's right - the proper way to proceed would be to claim an improper action or omission on the part of the OA, and request redress, in the form of invalidating that SI and allowing a protest to be filed.

Katydid, thanks for putting time into that well articulated response. 

I didn't mention the NOR before, but the protest time limit is also there; which unfortunately nix's that part of your argument.

As to 'why' this is in the NOR&SI which others have queried - the reason appears to be availability of  international jury (Appendix N) members.

Oddly - this may become more of an issue as the weather looks like it may delay the start a day or so !

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3 hours ago, TJSoCal said:

I don't know what kind of redress you'd ask for if your issue is supporting an insurance claim. See rule 62.4 for what you can expect to get out of a grant of redress - I'm not sure that a grant of redress would force the committee to allow an extension of the time limit and/or call a protest hearing.

It seems to me that if you enter a race and then later see in the SI a provision that makes you not want to race, the best option would be to withdraw your entry and request a refund of your entry fee based on non-timely information from the OA. Once you choose to start it seems to me you've accepted the provisions of the SIs. But that would assume that the OA provided sailing instructions before people showed up at the venue if it's a travel regatta.

I assume you mean 64.2, in which the most important part is "...it shall make as fair an arrangement as possible for all boats affected, whether or not they asked for redress." I already said I'd ask that the SI be invalidated and an extension of the filing deadline be granted, as good reason to provide it would exist. The Jury would not be forced to do anything in particular (they really never are, it's always up to them to decide what's fairest for all), but I believe it would be a strong case for the request. There is nothing in 64.2 that prevents the PC from implementing that remedy, as long as they think the problem is redressable (I don't believe the list of possibilities included in 64.2 is intended to be comprehensive - indeed, the phrase "...or to make some other arrangement" specifically permits other forms of redress, and I've seen them provided).

All of this is moot, however, since the change apparently did appear in the NOR, and was therefore properly implemented (once you grant that it's sufficiently clear, and I concede that my objection to the wording is a little fussy). It may well be that the change is valid, but it's still a terrible idea, and I agree with KC375 that a discreet conversation with the RC/OA is in order. There are other ways to deal with a shorthanded Jury (see N1.5), and it would be better to use one if it's available.

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On 5/24/2018 at 8:44 AM, duncan (the other one) said:

Ok - so I'm boning up on the SI's for an upcoming (long) race.

There's a modification to RRS 61.3 - time limit on protests (time/date) which may be exceeded by the tail end of the fleet if the weather doesn't comply.

So as I read it, some of the fleet may effectively be barred from lodging a protest if its a slow race.  WTF ?

Here's the actual wording (time and date changed to attempt some level of anonymity).

Note - there is no finish time limit for the race.

From the SI's:

.. Changes to RRS

..

  • RRS 61.3: There is no time limit on protests by the Race Committee or the National Jury. No other protests may be delivered after HH hours on DD MM YY , except when seeking redress. In that event, the time limit will be three hours after the protesting boat finishes. The Protest Committee may not extend the time for delivery of a protest lodged under the provisions of this clause.

 

I'm thinking the only out (if the situation were to eventuate) - is to claim redress: RRS 62.1 a) as an improper action by the organising authority, then work from there.

 

Those SI's are a hack job.  What event?

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36 minutes ago, duncan (the other one) said:

I won't drop them in it.. but google is your friend.

Found it.  One could say that the cut off is not out off order but why the f didn't they have a time limit for the race?  it makes no sense.  Could easily have a 3 - 5 day time limit for a (slightly under) 400 mile race and then have a time limit for protests of a few hours after finishing or expiration of the time limit whichever occurs first.

 

Only thing I can think of is that the OA wants to be able to break down the tent and take off without waiting with the whole apparatus available for the backmarkers while not cutting them off from officially finishing - but it is still a fucked up wording

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29 minutes ago, Christian said:

Found it.  One could say that the cut off is not out off order but why the f didn't they have a time limit for the race?  it makes no sense.  Could easily have a 3 - 5 day time limit for a (slightly under) 400 mile race and then have a time limit for protests of a few hours after finishing or expiration of the time limit whichever occurs first.

 

Only thing I can think of is that the OA wants to be able to break down the tent and take off without waiting with the whole apparatus available for the backmarkers while not cutting them off from officially finishing - but it is still a fucked up wording

ha -- I just googled myself and I see the OA has used this on many races previously. Weird.

The particular upcoming race I'm concerned with is a tad over 1000nm.. 

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Duncan, I believe the Race Briefing is on tonight, I'd raise it there with the OA. 

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2 hours ago, Phil said:

Duncan, I believe the Race Briefing is on tonight, I'd raise it there with the OA. 

indeed - 6pm.  Unfortunately not attending tonight, but have asked skipper to query it.

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You have to love this sea lawyer crap. If you can't file a protest within 3 hours of your finishing time, you're the one with the problem. 

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38 minutes ago, RATM said:

You have to love this sea lawyer crap. If you can't file a protest within 3 hours of your finishing time, you're the one with the problem. 

If this is what you've taken away from this thread, you'd make a pretty bad sea lawyer. Maybe try bird law?

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12 hours ago, RATM said:

You have to love this sea lawyer crap. If you can't file a protest within 3 hours of your finishing time, you're the one with the problem. 

Comprehension was never your strong suit, was it ?

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