Mark Set

Chiles vs Hancock on what is an "Open Boat"

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I can see both sides here. Seems to me any boat where you are exposed to the elements without shelter is an 'open boat". Though the advantage of having a dinghy with a deck is you dont have to do nearly as much bailing, if any, so it's a big advantage.  If having a deck makes something not an open boat though, then every 20ft center console fishing boat does not qualify as one.  

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11 minutes ago, Mark Set said:

I can see both sides here. Seems to me any boat where you are exposed to the elements without shelter is an 'open boat". Though the advantage of having a dinghy with a deck is you dont have to do nearly as much bailing, if any, so it's a big advantage.  If having a deck makes something not an open boat though, then every 20ft center console fishing boat does not qualify as one.  

If Hancock is going to make a fuss, he should at least spell "Webb Chiles" correctly. Doesn't show much respect to spell it wrong.

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Real life is a continuous spectrum - ppl who obsess over records and dictionary definitions want to carve up rigid categories as if they're found in nature.

What's an open boat? One where the occupants have no shelter? Or one where the boat is sinkable? Or a deck? What proportion constitutes a deck? What if said boat was uncovered but unsinkable due to flotation/foam core at either side and below?  What if a sailor circumnavigated on a sinkable boat with no part of the boat covered - but during a storm pulled some oiled canvas over parts of the deck to stay dry? Is said boat suddenly decked or still open boat?

*shrug*

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Agree with Ishmael about respect and name spelling. 

Further, the piece written by Webb Chiles was originally posted to his blog on January 31, 2017. It was not written as a response to Mr Hancock's article. I can see how the tone of the article could be misconstrued if taken as a response, but this is not the case. 

Stu

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Brian Hancock, as my youngest used to say, somebody call the "Whaaambulance".

Complete lack of respect in mis-spelling Webb Chiles name.  Was that deliberate?

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27 minutes ago, Peanutbutterjars said:

I respect all the participants in this saga for their seagoing and seamanship.

Problem is, some people can't handle the truth.  Steward's boat was , in part, decked, therefore the boat is not an "Open" boat.

I mean, my friend could seal off the companionway of his sailboat, and sail his boat around the world and claim it was an 'Open Boat" voyage by claiming he stayed all the time in the cockpit. Sounds ridiculous, and is, but is the logical conclusion if you say Ant Steward's boat really was an "open" boat. It wasn't and isn't.

Chiles is right. Simple as that.

what if you took an open boat and stretched a canvas across the gunwales? 

.

.

1280px-LaunchingTheJamesCaird2.jpg

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6 minutes ago, Peanutbutterjars said:

"..........and stretch a canvas across the deck".

What deck? If it's an open boat, then there is no deck.

A boat is either decked, or its open.   You are talking about sheltering yourself from the elements by stretching a piece of canvas from gunnel to gunnel. 

I'm talking about "the boat" itself.   Steward did a voyage where he was "open" to the elements, but his boat itself was not an open boat.  Otherwise, I could sit on the deck of a freighter the entire time while it was on passage from Panama to Tahiti and claim I had done an "Open Boat" voyage across the Pacific.

 

What if someone built a boat with an IMOCA mold - left the deck on shore, pulled a removable modern synthetic rigid material over the foredeck all the way to the back? Open boat or decked?

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Hmmm...... old OZ skiff rule definition: "..shall be an open boat where water has free access to all the boats limbers"

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1 minute ago, overlay said:

Need I sat more?

Sit wherever you like, this is a truly pointless discussion. Why do we give this Hancock clown so much airtime on here?

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46 minutes ago, Peanutbutterjars said:

"..........and stretch a canvas across the deck".

What deck? If it's an open boat, then there is no deck.

A boat is either decked, or its open.   You are talking about sheltering yourself from the elements by stretching a piece of canvas from gunnel to gunnel. 

yes that's what i meant, since corrected. So you didnt answer the question was the Shackleton expeditions famous "open boat voyage" done in an open boat or not?

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Handcock seems to be implying that Webb is trying to skew the rules so he qualifies for some world record.  I've never seen him make any such claims but can't say I follow it that closely.

 

But hey, Ed's gotta keep the front page going and lord knows we are all tired of watching him buy boats, pimp the free gear, post self gratifying results(or complaints about the race, PRO or rating) sell for profit, then repeat.

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All this arguing is diminishing Ant Stewart's incredible achievement.

He did not care if Zulu Dawn was defined as an open boat by the Guinness book or records or not. He did it for the challenge......and what an incredible human challenge it was. One that very few , if any of us, can contemplate.

I doubt that Ernest Shackleton would have cared a fig for whether Webb Chiles or Brian Hancock define the James Caird as an open boat or not. (likely he would have found the discussion silly) It remains one of the greatest voyages of survival of all time. His achievement was to save 22 lives in the most improbable journey imaginable.

I will just say this.....if someone asked me to sail around the world in Zulu Dawn or to traverse the Southern Ocean in a beefed up open wooden life boat......my answer in both cases would be  "In an open boat like that?   You have got to be kidding?"

 

   

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4 hours ago, Mark Set said:

what if you took an open boat and stretched a canvas across the gunwales? 

.

.

1280px-LaunchingTheJamesCaird2.jpg

 

So British:

"Men wanted for hazardous journey. Safe return doubtful....honour and recognition in case of success."

endurance.jpg.96222c11880b1c1884469aa9d49f8123.jpg

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8 hours ago, Mark Set said:

I can see both sides here. Seems to me any boat where you are exposed to the elements without shelter is an 'open boat". Though the advantage of having a dinghy with a deck is you dont have to do nearly as much bailing, if any, so it's a big advantage.  If having a deck makes something not an open boat though, then every 20ft center console fishing boat does not qualify as one.  

Hi, first post here, but long lurker if it matters. With regards to what is and isn't an open boat; certainly a laser and a 420 are open boats. However, the bailing point above is a strong one. I'n my opinion, any boat that has a encapsulated buoyant volume sufficient to prevent sinking, and even perhaps enough to allow navigation, is not an open boat in the spirit of Cook's or Shackleton's or Chiles' voyages.

 

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The entire issue at odds in this conversation is the difference between the two understandings of an open boat. Entirely open to the elements, versus entirely open to swamping and sinking, which also happens to include, entirely open to the elements. Classically, the second understanding is what should be the true tally wacker.

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10 minutes ago, onecoolone said:

Hi, first post here, but long lurker if it matters. With regards to what is and isn't an open boat; certainly a laser and a 420 are open boats. However, the bailing point above is a strong one. I'n my opinion, any boat that has a encapsulated buoyant volume sufficient to prevent sinking, and even perhaps enough to allow navigation, is not an open boat in the spirit of Cook's or Shackleton's or Chiles' voyages.

 

Tits?

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8 hours ago, Ishmael said:

If Hancock is going to make a fuss, he should at least spell "Webb Chiles" correctly. Doesn't show much respect to spell it wrong.

Totally agree.

P.S. Webb Chiles vs. Hancock is like Dirty Harry vs. Johnny English, respectively. No contest!

DIRTY-HARRY-2.jpg

johnny_english_reborn_rowan.jpg

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1 minute ago, onecoolone said:

The entire issue at odds in this conversation is the difference between the two understandings of an open boat. Entirely open to the elements, versus entirely open to swamping and sinking, which also happens to include, entirely open to the elements. Classically, the second understanding is what should be the true tally wacker.

Given even the officially designated "open" boat in this situation has pictures in which it is entirely full of water, yet resists sinking, it seems both boats are only in the first category.

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3 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

So British:

"Men wanted for hazardous journey. Safe return doubtful....honour and recognition in case of success."

endurance.jpg.96222c11880b1c1884469aa9d49f8123.jpg

Even better were Bill Tilman's advertisements: "Hands wanted for long voyage in small boat: no pay, no prospects, not much pleasure".

image003.png

 

Tilman-Mischief-1.png

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While Shakleton's 800 mile voyage in an open boat in the Southern Ocean was something I would not attempt it reminds me of  the Bounty story and that of Captain Bligh's  4,000 mile voyage in a 23ft open boat, so dangerously loaded that it had only seven inches of freeboard and initially only five days’ food and water, as another superb example of seafaring.

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8 hours ago, Mark Set said:

what if you took an open boat and stretched a canvas across the gunwales? 

.

.

1280px-LaunchingTheJamesCaird2.jpg

then it wouldn't be an open boat.

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1 hour ago, LB 15 said:

Tits?

be careful, you may get attacked for not being a snowflake. apparently that's an old, played out ritual that's sexist and outdated...

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Not an "open boat". Massive respect to both Webb and Ant however. Both have achieved a lot in small boats. And Brian Hancock is a click baiting clown.

From Dudley Dix's web site:

"Ant's boat has a heavily cambered foredeck and side decks at gunwhale level, giving a far greater range of stability... Ant put in watertight bulkheads to break the hull into small compartments, some of which were foam filled. He also built watertight storage lockers all round the cockpit for his food, clothing and VHF radio (the radio was the only electronic item on board and was powered by small solar panels at the stern). The result was a boat which was about as unsinkable as he could make it"

 

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5 hours ago, bigrpowr said:

be careful, you may get attacked for not being a snowflake. apparently that's an old, played out ritual that's sexist and outdated...

Tits are outdated? I didn't get that memo,

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Decked in means decked in, whether wood, canvas, glass, carbon or whatever. open means no deck, open,  Cheers.

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While we are on the subject, here's an excellent story - The Open Boat - by Stephen Crane.

"A night on the sea in an open boat is a long night. As darkness settled finally, the shine of the light, lifting from the sea in the south, changed to full gold. On the northern horizon a new light appeared, a small bluish gleam on the edge of the waters. These two lights were the furniture of the world. Otherwise there was nothing but waves."

 

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3 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

At least my spelling mistake was worth some laughs. This Childs thing is just cringeworthy.

So Childish!!

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1 hour ago, LB 15 said:
6 hours ago, bigrpowr said:

be careful, you may get attacked for not being a snowflake. apparently that's an old, played out ritual that's sexist and outdated...

Tits are outdated? I didn't get that memo,

Me neither

 

post-30927-072048000%201345139669_thumb.jpg

Of course that's what makes this place so intellectual

FB- Doug

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^You know that’s his daughter, right?

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1 hour ago, HFC Hunter said:

^You know that’s his daughter, right?

Carrie Fisher was James Earl Jones' daughter?

Or do you mean the other one, in uniform on the left, is his daughter? If the latter, I don't want to see her tits, thank you

FB- Doug

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2 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Carrie Fisher was James Earl Jones' daughter?

Or do you mean the other one, in uniform on the left, is his daughter? If the latter, I don't want to see her tits, thank you

FB- Doug

Her worst response would be “Show us your helmet!”

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But that shot looks more like a classic father-daughter: Pull my finger.

or perhaps Spinal Tap’s Smell the Glove!

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Sure, call them both “open boats” (Steward’s boat has a large open area, so terminologically speaking, could be said to “qualify” as open) but, really, we all know which one is *actually* an open boat...)

Maybe the best way to get a better sense of it is to read Webb Chiles’ book. http://www.inthepresentsea.com/the_actual_site/books.html

 

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I rather prefer the name Webb Childs ...... seems appropriate and almost perfect in respect of delusion........ carry on silly people.......

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For me, if the only thing sheltering you from the elements is clothing, you're on a goddamn open boat.  

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16 hours ago, LB 15 said:

Tits are outdated? I didn't get that memo,

Neither did Harvey

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2 hours ago, comcrudesgru8 said:

I rather prefer the name Webb Childs ...... seems appropriate and almost perfect in respect of delusion........ carry on silly people.......

Dave, how's it going with the sale of that beautiful Custom C&C?

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On 5/24/2018 at 11:30 PM, onecoolone said:

Hi, first post here, but long lurker if it matters. With regards to what is and isn't an open boat; certainly a laser and a 420 are open boats. However, the bailing point above is a strong one. I'n my opinion, any boat that has a encapsulated buoyant volume sufficient to prevent sinking, and even perhaps enough to allow navigation, is not an open boat in the spirit of Cook's or Shackleton's or Chiles' voyages.

 

According to your "standard" the laser and 420 are not open boats as the both float even fully swamped

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WC is still getting it done singlehanded after many notable voyages and a lot of years. Hancock never got it done and never will, not sailing and especially not writing. He is a passable troll though.

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8 hours ago, r.finn said:

For me, if the only thing sheltering you from the elements is clothing, you're on a goddamn open boat.  

 

^^^^^^^^THIS!

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The reality is that no one here, or WC himself, have ever achieved what Ant did. And at such a young age. Disclaimer, Ant is a friend of mine and he finished putting his boat together at the University of Cape Town Yacht Club which is a few hundred meters from my house, he used to pop in for a meal occasionally, at the time  I thought he was nuts, didn’t think his boat would get around the lake, let alone the world! The route he took would have been absolutely impossible In a boat with no buoyancy or self draining capability, even a frightened man with a bucket cannot beat the force of the open ocean. 

Well done Ant, even if this is all about someone dissing you, at least it is also reminding everyone what you achieved.

Respect.

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Dix:

Lengthy correspondence with "Nobby" Clarke (who was custodian of the records at the time) produced some surprise requirements. Nobby felt that the achievements of Webb Chiles must be protected by ensuring that it did not become easy to better them, a sentiment with which I agree although some of the resulting rules seemed a bit at odds. To this end we were not permitted to place Paul's deck at gunwhale level but had to have a bulwark of 150mm (6") height around the deck. This had the effect of considerably reducing the range of stability available and making the boat rather less safe if taking a wave on board.

My argument against this ruling was that a boat such as a Laser dinghy did not qualify as an open boat by the definition which was being applied. However, it would if we added some protection in the form of a bulwark all round. However, Webb's boat had a bulwark so we had to have one too.

What we were permitted that Webb did not have were a wet deck (self-draining cockpit) and fixed ballast keel. Those two features went a long way to giving the seworthiness necessary to take on such a voyage from our notorious waters.

 

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People who can't love to regulate people who can. The NFL is a perfect example. Why not give the teams they're 24 NFL footballs and let them put as much or as little air in them as they like? htttps://operations.nfl.com/the-game/gameday-behind-the-scenes/nfl-game-ball-procedures/ But if your motivation is getting into the record books eat the hotdogs, or go for the longest fart, your feet will stay warmer. ~Cheers~ 

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3 hours ago, Gutterblack said:

My argument against this ruling was that a boat such as a Laser dinghy did not qualify as an open boat by the definition which was being applied. However, it would if we added some protection in the form of a bulwark all round. However, Webb's boat had a bulwark so we had to have one too.

What we were permitted that Webb did not have were a wet deck (self-draining cockpit) and fixed ballast keel. Those two features went a long way to giving the seworthiness necessary to take on such a voyage from our notorious waters.

A Laser with a 6" bulwark would be quite a sight.

Self-draining at rest would be my test of an open boat. I was afraid to stop for a really active school of fish in the harbor the other day. Too rough and I was pretty sure I'd wind up taking a wave aboard. If that happened and I didn't escape immediately somehow, I'd be swimming next to my swamped boat. This boat:

alum-boat-coquina-ramp.jpg

I would have stopped if I had been in my wife's boat. Waves would have washed over it harmlessly and I would have caught fish.

This boat:

solo-skiff-harbor.jpg

So one's an open boat and one is not.

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On 5/24/2018 at 4:10 PM, Mark Set said:

what if you took an open boat and stretched a canvas across the gunwales? 

.

.

1280px-LaunchingTheJamesCaird2.jpg

No comment re what is open, but I recalled there being wood as well as canvas involved in the decking of the James Caird. No time to go to the primary source, but wikipedia at least concurs: "Using improvised tools and materials, McNish built a makeshift deck of wood and canvas, sealing his work with oil paints, lamp wick, and seal blood." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyage_of_the_James_Caird

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Dont think Bligh had flotation or decks. Anyway this is a getting silly, amazing achievements by Chiles and Steward.

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57 minutes ago, Gutterblack said:

Dont think Bligh had flotation or decks. Anyway this is a getting silly, amazing achievements by Chiles and Steward.

 

Yes, and I doubt that most of the armchair Admirals here, who are pontificating and bloviating, have anywhere near the CV that those two.  Having fallen off 40 foot waves, in a North Atlantic, 80 knot gale  on a 50 foot leadmine in December of 1979, I would never go offshore, in any of these small "open boats", whatever your definition of that is....

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Have always been a fan standing in awe of Ant’s achievement and have said as much many times here. 

Since Webb is acting like a petulant schoolchild teacher’s snitch, I suggest we treat him like the wailing Bonobo monkey he is and fling  shit at his name...

Take that, Mr Webb of lies. Webb of deceit. Tangled Webb. Creepy Charlotte’s Webb spider thing. Slimy Gollum “open-boat-precious” with icky Webbed fingers and toes.  :(- 

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On 5/29/2018 at 2:15 PM, Peanut Butter said:

Have always been a fan standing in awe of Ant’s achievement and have said as much many times here. 

Since Webb is acting like a petulant schoolchild teacher’s snitch, I suggest we treat him like the wailing Bonobo monkey he is and fling  shit at his name...

Take that, Mr Webb of lies. Webb of deceit. Tangled Webb. Creepy Charlotte’s Webb spider thing. Slimy Gollum “open-boat-precious” with icky Webbed fingers and toes.  :(- 

What are you? two years old?

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On 5/25/2018 at 4:41 AM, LB 15 said:

Tits?

Yes please; you have to ask?

(As long as they're not yours.)

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On 5/27/2018 at 1:55 AM, Major Tom said:

 

Well done Ant, even if this is all about someone dissing you, at least it is also reminding everyone what you achieved.

Respect.

Quite right.  I had never heard of Ant Steward before this thread....but reading this and then going and reading about his voyage online.....I am in complete awe.

As sailors, we know an "open boat" when we see one. Lets each make our own judgement. As far as I am concerned Ant Steward sailed around the world in an open boat by my definition.  Absolutely incredible.

A unique achievement and he did this with no money and next to no support. He capsized numerous times, survived shipwreck and finished the job.....and he cannot stop smiling.  This is a wonderful story and thanks to all for bringing this back into the limelight.   

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