fastyacht

Saining is (not?) a "Good Reason" to carry a knife in England?

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

Well interestingly after doing some reading, I've come to the conclusion that the US is much the same as UK with respect to knives--just the fence may be a little (little) farther over. Even in strong gun control states, it turns out that it is legal to carry a pistol for protection (properly permitted etc) but never legal to carry a "dangerous weapon" for that purpose. And the 4" rule seems pretty common. And the "good reason" though worded differently seems to apply too--you can move the knife from place to place but not just have it with you "just because."

I find that more than problematic and yet there it is. The difference is that if I have a 4" lockback pretty much anywhere except NYC, I'm OK. Pretty much.

The other nuance from UK to US may be the search and seizure aspect. Your car cannot be searched here without a warrant or equivalent (as in seeing a crime taking place...) but  I believe there is no such protection in UK?

If you are moving something here, it reads that you have to put it in the trunk. That's where my initial post came in. Interestingly "Mad" implies that having the generally illegal knife on the passenger seat on top of my sea bag is not likely to be a problem as long as the Bobby buys the explanation of going to the dinghy park.

 

That’s not what I said, having the knife in plain view is just asking for trouble and will probably invite further searches and questions. 

Put it in the sailing bag and if it’s searched you may get away with it, at the disgression of the officer. 

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8 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

A $600 knife is jewelry, not a tool.

You may know guns, but you don't seem to know tool steel. That $600 knife was a bargain, regardless that I need to wait a bit to buy it. Carbonitride edges are so far beyond regular hardened and high-carbon edge, that it's barely a comparison, and they're molecularly bonded to the bulk surface ...

http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/Carpenter/cts-204p.shtml

And then with that Spyderco flipper, you basically get the handle, pivot and lock for free, because the mule alone for that type of blade is worth $600. If you spent a week with a that blade in a good format, you wouldn't ever want to use your $60 pocket knife again. It slices through rope and wood so cleanly, and it stays sharp.

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2 minutes ago, mikewof said:

You may know guns, but you don't seem to know tool steel. That $600 knife was a bargain, regardless that I need to wait a bit to buy it. Carbonitride blades are so far beyond regular hardened and high-carbon blades, that it's barely a comparison ...

http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/Carpenter/cts-204p.shtml

And then with that Spyderco flipper, you basically get the handle, pivot and lock for free, because the mule alone for that type of blade is worth $600. Trust me Normy, if you spent a week with a carbonitride blade in a good format like that one, you wouldn't ever want to use your $60 pocket knife again.

And now you know how I feel about my $5000 Accuracy International Rifle and Schmidt & Bender Scope(s).  Its all about the quality and workmanship.  And results......

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2 hours ago, mad said:

That’s not what I said, having the knife in plain view is just asking for trouble and will probably invite further searches and questions. 

Put it in the sailing bag and if it’s searched you may get away with it, at the disgression of the officer. 

Opposite rule here, certain knives have to be kept in open view, and not concealed.

A bit of the difficulty that Normy has here I think, is Americans like to see things codified, we don't like wink-and-not rules, we want to know the rules, abide by them, and then not take any shit from any arbitrarily-applied rules. It seems different in Europe, and places like NYC. Folks there don't seem to care as much about the vagaries of the law, they have confidence that the rules will be applied equitably.

And I'm not sure that we were always like this either. When I read through the Constitution, I am regularly struck by the feeling that these vagaries were kinda okay with our Founding Fathers. And my dad's generation didn't seem to worry about the precision either. If I had to guess, I would say our big change came from our Civil Rights era. Black and Hispanic people in this country had been at the shit end of the legal stick for so long, with the imprecisions used against them for generations, that they started to insist on accurate application of laws, and equitable application across economic spectra. The Black man could be hung for the same violation that the Caucasian man received a $5 fine. That push for precision eventually spread. We don't like arbitrary applications of laws here.

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4 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

And now you know how I feel about my $5000 Accuracy International Rifle and Schmidt & Bender Scope(s).  Its all about the quality and workmanship.  And results......

I don't know that rifle, but my friend's daughter is an Olympic Pentathlete, she used to compete with an air gun that cost him his Audi. They have since switched to lasers.

I get the need for precision machining. And I tried to explain this to you once, that we just don't machine tool steel the way we used to, labor and machine time is too expensive. Yes, we have computer controlled cutting and grinding, but even your high end gun tends to go through a course, medium, fine, and polishing pass. That course pass puts a lot of stress on the crystalline structure of the steel that never really leaves. Back before WWII, when labor was much cheaper than cutting steel, they knew this, and simply avoided course cutting. They had no problem with putting some farmer's son on the fifty fine cuts to make a barrel. It took the lad a month to cut a barrel? Okay, then it took him a month, he was a disposable human.

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27 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

And now you know how I feel about my $5000 Accuracy International Rifle and Schmidt & Bender Scope(s).  Its all about the quality and workmanship.  And results......

A $100k English Double Rifle is about workmanship*, a $5,000 sniper rifle is about manufacturing quality control.

For knives, substitute in your Japanese artisan forge** for the former, your boutique north american steel blend knife for the latter.

* see mikewofs comment

** as long as the few old men still doing it live

 

as for England, you can buy these things (Yorkshire pattern billhook):

morris-of-dunsford-yorkshire-pattern-bil

and if you were coppicing, you'd probably have no problem. But I imagine walking down a London lane carrying one would cause problems.

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16 minutes ago, mikewof said:

Opposite rule here, certain knives have to be kept in open view, and not concealed.

A bit of the difficulty that Normy has here I think, is Americans like to see things codified, we don't like wink-and-not rules, we want to know the rules, abide by them, and then not take any shit from any arbitrarily-applied rules. It seems different in Europe, and places like NYC. Folks there don't seem to care as much about the vagaries of the law, they have confidence that the rules will be applied equitably.

And I'm not sure that we were always like this either. When I read through the Constitution, I am regularly struck by the feeling that these vagaries were kinda okay with our Founding Fathers. And my dad's generation didn't seem to worry about the precision either. If I had to guess, I would say our big change came from our Civil Rights era. Black and Hispanic people in this country had been at the shit end of the legal stick for so long, with the imprecisions used against them for generations, that they started to insist on accurate application of laws, and equitable application across economic spectra. The Black man could be hung for the same violation that the Caucasian man received a $5 fine. That push for precision eventually spread. We don't like arbitrary applications of laws here.

That may in fact be true. One of the best observations I've read on the PA section.

If you look at women's rights the same thing. In fact the movie I just watched essentially showed how this worked. Ruth Bader Ginsberg's law career before becoming a judge, was arguing the 14th amendment (equal protection) on many cases--in other words precise application of laws. These cases included the one where the widower father could not receive SS benefits after the death of his wife, to support his newborn child. She won that case too.

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30 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

A $100k English Double Rifle is about workmanship*, a $5,000 sniper rifle is about manufacturing quality control.

Yeah?  So?  Most accurate rifle in the world.   3,540m Kill is the record.  Three Thousand five hundred and forty METERs.  Meters.  

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59 minutes ago, mikewof said:

The Black man could be hung for the same violation that the Caucasian man received a $5 fine. That push for precision eventually spread. We don't like arbitrary applications of laws here.

Yep.  Well said mike.  Well said.

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21 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Yep.  Well said mike.  Well said.

you've no problem about arbitrary application of laws to minoritys Jeff because you reject it exists despite fact to the contrary.

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1 minute ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

you've no problem about arbitrary application of laws to minoritys Jeff because you reject it exists despite fact to the contrary.

I do???  Such as?  

Btw - its "minorities".

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1 hour ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

A $100k English Double Rifle is about workmanship*, a $5,000 sniper rifle is about manufacturing quality control.

For knives, substitute in your Japanese artisan forge** for the former, your boutique north american steel blend knife for the latter.

* see mikewofs comment

** as long as the few old men still doing it live

 

as for England, you can buy these things (Yorkshire pattern billhook):

morris-of-dunsford-yorkshire-pattern-bil

and if you were coppicing, you'd probably have no problem. But I imagine walking down a London lane carrying one would cause problems.

So a tinker walks into a hardware shop and asks for a slash hook (something similar to the above picture).

The salesman says, "Certainly Sir, would that be for a wedding or a funeral?"

 

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40 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Yeah?  So?  Most accurate rifle in the world.   3,540m Kill is the record.  Three Thousand five hundred and forty METERs.  Meters.  

Miles. 2.2 miles. Reach out and touch someone, baby. Funny how so many folks don't appreciate that. I couldn't make that shot with a laser.

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2 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

Miles. 2.2 miles. Reach out and touch someone, baby. Funny how so many folks don't appreciate that. I couldn't make that shot with a laser.

Especially one that has gone soft at the mast step.

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3 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Yeah?  So?  Most accurate rifle in the world.   3,540m Kill is the record.  Three Thousand five hundred and forty METERs.  Meters.  

metres.

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2 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Especially one that has gone soft at the mast step.

I haven't sailed one but it sure looks fun.

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7 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Yep.  Well said mike.  Well said.

Yeah, and that's why our Red Flag proposition failed. The gun guys wanted to keep guns away from emotionally ill people, the gun grabbers wanted to keep guns away from emotionally ill people. But the proposal was written inexpertly, in a way that left ambiguity to how and when weapons would be confiscated and how and when people would be defined as emotionally ill and lose that right.

It's not reasonable for the grabbers  to think they can write laws that will pass without this ambiguity, and it's not reasonable for the gun guys to think that unambiguous laws can be written without their cooperation. So we're left with armed psychopaths.

This is where politics is fucking the whole thing up. Back when the NRA wanted to distance themselves from politics, back when they were planning to move to Colorado Springs, this could have probably been avoided. A sporting organization would have helped figure out the law. There is low-hanging fruit. We don't need to figure out what to do about "assault" weapons or bump stockaaaaa, or concealed carry. We just need to make some changes on the things which both sides agree. And then, as the political venom slowly drains from the mess, I'll bet that the psychopaths will look to other methods of destruction too. They chose guns for politically-motivated insanity because guns are politically motivating. The Red Flag laws are a no brainer if they can be done in a functionally compromised way. And if that's all that comes out of some kind of bipartisan effort, then that will be a lot.

We even did it with knives, and with minimal trauma ... ballistic knives are pretty much illegal all over the country, and they can't cross state lines without fouling Federal law.

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7 hours ago, Saorsa said:

metres.

Only if you live in the Commonwealth.

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Speaking of arbitrary implementation of knife laws in Britain, I ran across this ten-year-old article. A gardener was arrested for having gardening knives, it ran through the courts for months until a Judge finally ordered the Court services to apologize to the guy.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1075572/Judge-orders-court-apologise-gardener-prosecuted-having-scythe.html

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1 hour ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Only if you live in the Commonwealth.

or europe and practically anywhere else in the world. feet and inches are so yestreday

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Just now, Bill R said:

or europe and practically anywhere else in the world. feet and inches are so yestreday

I prefer cubits , chains and cables myself.

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2 hours ago, mikewof said:

Speaking of arbitrary implementation of knife laws in Britain, I ran across this ten-year-old article. A gardener was arrested for having gardening knives, it ran through the courts for months until a Judge finally ordered the Court services to apologize to the guy.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1075572/Judge-orders-court-apologise-gardener-prosecuted-having-scythe.html

A good example of the judge using his discretion, rather than it all being caught up in a catch all law.  It's not always black and white.

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15 hours ago, mikewof said:

A bit of the difficulty that Normy has here I think, is Americans like to see things codified, we don't like wink-and-not rules, we want to know the rules, abide by them, and then not take any shit from any arbitrarily-applied rules. It seems different in Europe, and places like NYC. Folks there don't seem to care as much about the vagaries of the law, they have confidence that the rules will be applied equitably.

This is pretty tone deaf considering what happened to Mr. Gray.

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Why do they call the sickle a scythe. I used to use a scythe. It has a long handle. I was never arrested using it.

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6 hours ago, Bill R said:
7 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Only if you live in the Commonwealth.

or europe and practically anywhere else in the world. feet and inches are so yestreday

Who is talking feet and inches??? I used the metric distance in my post.  I have been using metric for so long now that whenever I'm back in the US, I have to convert feet, inches, miles, mph, gallons and such to metric because thats the way my brain thinks now. 

IFUCKINGHATEENGLISHUNITS!!!

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I asked for a metric tape measure at Lowes a couple of years back. They thought I was kidding. They do have them now.

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5 hours ago, mad said:
7 hours ago, mikewof said:

Speaking of arbitrary implementation of knife laws in Britain, I ran across this ten-year-old article. A gardener was arrested for having gardening knives, it ran through the courts for months until a Judge finally ordered the Court services to apologize to the guy.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1075572/Judge-orders-court-apologise-gardener-prosecuted-having-scythe.html

A good example of the judge using his discretion, rather than it all being caught up in a catch all law.  It's not always black and white.

I wonder how much this bit of di$cretion co$t the defendant who had to go to court and defend him$elf for month$ over gardening knive$?  

This is the issue I have with imprecise and ambiguous laws that leave too much discretion to LEO and the courts.  In this case had the judge not used his common sense, which unfortunately is not so common, this guy might be in jail for a long time.  And at best, these things can bankrupt a person pretty quickly when the lawyers fees start mounting up.

 

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50 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

I asked for a metric tape measure at Lowes a couple of years back. They thought I was kidding. They do have them now.

Metric is only good for science. In daily life, it's the measuring system for simpletons.

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5 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

This is pretty tone deaf considering what happened to Mr. Gray.

Holy crap ... did Normy just make a Reservoir Dogs pseudo reference? I didn't know you had it in you!

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1 hour ago, mikewof said:

Holy crap ... did Normy just make a Reservoir Dogs pseudo reference? I didn't know you had it in you!

To do that, I would have to know something about Reservoir Dogs, whatever that is.

I was referring to the man who got in trouble for something that might or might not have been a "gravity knife," depending on the wrist skills of the arresting officer.

Some other stuff happened to him too. I linked to the thread about it so that readers can know what I'm talking about.

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On 5/25/2018 at 9:18 AM, mad said:

Selling, buying and carrying knives

The maximum penalty for an adult carrying a knife is 4 years in prison and an unlimited fine. You’ll get a prison sentence if you’re convicted of carrying a knife more than once.

Basic laws on knives

It’s illegal to:

  • sell a knife to anyone under 18, unless it has a folding blade 3 inches long (7.62 cm) or less
  • carry a knife in public without good reason, unless it has a folding blade with a cutting edge 3 inches long or less
  • carry, buy or sell any type of banned knife
  • use any knife in a threatening way (even a legal knife)

Scotland

In Scotland, 16 to 18 year olds are allowed to buy cutlery and kitchen knives.

Lock knives

Lock knives are not classed as folding knives and are illegal to carry in public without good reason. Lock knives:

  • have blades that can be locked and refolded only by pressing a button
  • can include multi-tool knives - tools that also contain other devices such as a screwdriver or can opener

<SNIP>

 

This is fine

So a leatherman or gerber multi-tool is illegal because (for safety) the blade locks open?  I honestly can't see the logic behind such a restriction. 

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On 5/25/2018 at 3:19 PM, mad said:

I just posted that as link, (the outline of the law is contained in that post) those were not my words. To quote it in a way that made it look my opinion isn’t PA practice. 

In answer to your question, there is absolutely no issue with that knife!! It’s used for a specific purpose and you are a responsible adult.   

And most importantly, you don’t wander around the streets of the UK cities, threatening to use it as a weapon? 

The issue is that the statute's worded in such a way that your behavior with the knife isn't pertinent, possession is sufficient to imply guilt.  "Prove you weren't going to hurt someone with that - or we're hauling you in!"

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21 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

The issue is that the statute's worded in such a way that your behavior with the knife isn't pertinent, possession is sufficient to imply guilt.  "Prove you weren't going to hurt someone with that - or we're hauling you in!"

That's pretty normal for folks writing laws and regulations regarding things they know fuck-all about.

Personally, I don't like knives that don't lock open.  I don't think they are as safe as those that do.

 

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11 hours ago, fastyacht said:

Why do they call the sickle a scythe. I used to use a scythe. It has a long handle. I was never arrested using it.

main-qimg-81daf118f756c373d32870da145f35d0-c.jpeg.206083925b9fd0f9a52c0f88e8e675da.jpeg

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8 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Who is talking feet and inches??? I used the metric distance in my post.  I have been using metric for so long now that whenever I'm back in the US, I have to convert feet, inches, miles, mph, gallons and such to metric because thats the way my brain thinks now. 

IFUCKINGHATEENGLISHUNITS!!!

Join the fucking club!!

Yours sincerely,

the happy European citizen, born and bred :lol:

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9 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I wonder how much this bit of di$cretion co$t the defendant who had to go to court and defend him$elf for month$ over gardening knive$?  

This is the issue I have with imprecise and ambiguous laws that leave too much discretion to LEO and the courts.  In this case had the judge not used his common sense, which unfortunately is not so common, this guy might be in jail for a long time.  And at best, these things can bankrupt a person pretty quickly when the lawyers fees start mounting up.

 

That’s a very rare case, just shows the idiocy of our CPS at times, as shown by the judges disgust at it even making court. 

Theres a good chance the guy was represented by the Legal Aid system, (free and offered to everyone arrested). All costs and compensation paid by the state. I hope he sued the fuck out of them!  

Its a different system here, might not be right, but it seems to work ok on this occasion. 

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8 hours ago, mikewof said:

Metric is only good for science. In daily life, it's the measuring system for simpletons.

I’ve read your points about this before, and it makes sense in ways. I’m happy to refer to scientific/engineering units, as is a lot of the world. 

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4 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

So a leatherman or gerber multi-tool is illegal because (for safety) the blade locks open?  I honestly can't see the logic behind such a restriction. 

It’s not the locking, almost every knife that folds does (never had one that didnt).  It’s the quick, one handed deployment, and use for a quick stab attack that they don’t like. 

It’s called a compromise/common sense law..... somewhere the 2A will head to in a decade or 2 maybe. 

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4 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

The issue is that the statute's worded in such a way that your behavior with the knife isn't pertinent, possession is sufficient to imply guilt.  "Prove you weren't going to hurt someone with that - or we're hauling you in!"

No!! 

Thats been part of my discussion here.  It’s absolutely down the behaviour, time and place with the knife. 

If your wielding a machete clearing brush/saplings in the woods? Fine. Do that in the street, you going to get in big shit, and possibly shot if you wave/attack at the police with it. 

It’s just the law here, I’m not here to argue the law. 

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4 hours ago, Saorsa said:

That's pretty normal for folks writing laws and regulations regarding things they know fuck-all about.

Personally, I don't like knives that don't lock open.  I don't think they are as safe as those that do.

 

Exactly, my grandfather wouldn’t allow me to have one unless it did when I was 6 years old. Then he taught me to split logs for the fire with a hatchet at 8, and then shoot with an air rifle at 9-10 years old..... and it carried on.

 He had the same regard for fucking idiots making laws and sending orders when they haven’t got a fucking clue.

May he RIP. 

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19 minutes ago, mad said:

Thats been part of my discussion here.  It’s absolutely down the behaviour, time and place with the knife. 

I was on the jury in a court case here in the UK just a couple of weeks ago. Defendant was a professional seaman. There were other charges we needn't go into, but when he was arrested he was carrying his normal tote bag, and zipped away in a pocket in the bag was his sailors knife, which was a lock knife with the point broken off. They not only charged him with carrying the knife, but treated the whole thing really seriously, to the extent that they produced witnesses and photographs of the knife in court, even though they'd made a complete mess of gathering evidence and producing witnesses for what IMO (and yours too I bet) were much more serious charges... I don't think under UK law I'm allowed to tell you how long the jury deliberated on the charge in question, but the jury returned to court and returned a not guilty charge on that count before they agreed a verdict on any of the other charges.

Based on this I've got to say that any time you've got a knife in the UK you are at risk of serious crap from the police, no matter where it is.

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20 minutes ago, JimC said:

I was on the jury in a court case here in the UK just a couple of weeks ago. Defendant was a professional seaman. There were other charges we needn't go into, but when he was arrested he was carrying his normal tote bag, and zipped away in a pocket in the bag was his sailors knife, which was a lock knife with the point broken off. They not only charged him with carrying the knife, but treated the whole thing really seriously, to the extent that they produced witnesses and photographs of the knife in court, even though they'd made a complete mess of gathering evidence and producing witnesses for what IMO (and yours too I bet) were much more serious charges... I don't think under UK law I'm allowed to tell you how long the jury deliberated on the charge in question, but the jury returned to court and returned a not guilty charge on that count before they agreed a verdict on any of the other charges.

Based on this I've got to say that any time you've got a knife in the UK you are at risk of serious crap from the police, no matter where it is.

Thanks for input. Interesting. 

But it also proves my point, had he no other criminal investigations going on, the single knife issue would probably have not been an issue. I’ve 2 small knives missing the tip and I’m not concerned myself, one a Gerber multitool and is in my gun bag. They can stop and caution me any time they like, I’ve done nothing wrong. 

Do you no longer have a sailing knife?

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No, I don't have a knife I'm not convinced with what I do they are much use. With what I know now even if I did I wouldn't risk taking one off the boat. 

The knife was absolutely and completely irrelevant to what else was going on, but the whole prosecution system gave it a really high priority.

I'm afraid in my opinion the incident disproves your point. Maybe you weren't stopped and searched as often as I was when I was younger.

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My photo gear includes a machete, pruning saw, secateurs, and a couple of knives of various purpose.

Why?  I may need to clear a branch or a little space for a hide.  Sometimes I get found out.

Hunting_Cows.jpg

 

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45 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

My photo gear includes a machete, pruning saw, secateurs, and a couple of knives of various purpose.

Why?  I may need to clear a branch or a little space for a hide.  Sometimes I get found out.

Hunting_Cows.jpg

 

You gotta watch out for them moose, they can sneak up on you like nobody's business.

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4 hours ago, JimC said:

I was on the jury in a court case here in the UK just a couple of weeks ago. Defendant was a professional seaman. There were other charges we needn't go into, but when he was arrested he was carrying his normal tote bag, and zipped away in a pocket in the bag was his sailors knife, which was a lock knife with the point broken off. They not only charged him with carrying the knife, but treated the whole thing really seriously, to the extent that they produced witnesses and photographs of the knife in court, even though they'd made a complete mess of gathering evidence and producing witnesses for what IMO (and yours too I bet) were much more serious charges... I don't think under UK law I'm allowed to tell you how long the jury deliberated on the charge in question, but the jury returned to court and returned a not guilty charge on that count before they agreed a verdict on any of the other charges.

Based on this I've got to say that any time you've got a knife in the UK you are at risk of serious crap from the police, no matter where it is.


Well, that confirms my concerns. Damn what a pain.

What's this about the broken point? What does that have to do with law?

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5 hours ago, mad said:

I’ve read your points about this before, and it makes sense in ways. I’m happy to refer to scientific/engineering units, as is a lot of the world. 

The thing that regularly amazes me when I send gauges for international orders, is that I always offer a choice between the inches/picas ruler and the cm/picas ruler. The inches one has the cm on the interior edge, the cm ruler has the inches on the interior edge. So they'll both work for each system, but you get the one on the outer edge that you'll use more often. So I ask before I ship, "which one do you want?"

A surprising number of Brits, some Europeans, a lot of Middle Easterners, almost all Canadians and a handful of Aussies request the inches version, they report that they still use it. And of course, the printing and design industry runs on the unit called points/picas, which are actually an old French system based on the Inch, not the centimeter. So even people who think they're using metric when they use points and picas are actually using inches.

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2 minutes ago, mikewof said:

The thing that regularly amazes me when I send gauges for international orders, is that I always offer a choice between the inches/picas ruler and the cm/picas ruler. The inches one has the cm on the interior edge, the cm ruler has the inches on the interior edge. So they'll both work for each system, but you get the one on the outer edge that you'll use more often. So I ask before I ship, "which one do you want?"

A surprising number of Brits, some Europeans, a lot of Middle Easterners, almost all Canadians and a handful of Aussies request the inches version, they report that they still use it. And of course, the printing and design industry runs on the unit called points/picas, which are actually an old French system based on the Inch, not the centimeter. So even people who think they're using metric when they use points and picas are actually using inches.

Even American machinists cheat and use decimals instead of fractions though, not a 256th of an inch or whatever..   Probably because multiplication of fractions in ones head is so entertaining.

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There's all sorts of weird coincidences and nonconformities in unit systems. They are all arbritrary and it is all trivial. A consistent set of units can be found with either pounds or Newtons, either Slugs or Kilograms, either inches or meters.

In my experience the centimeter is the European equivalent of a "customary" rather than an "engineering" unit. Ever since cgs went the way of the Dodo in favour of SI, it seems everything (almost) is mm or m.

Now then you have the lucky coincidences that made "metric" possible.
1. The meter is near to a yard. That made that acceptable. That's also half a fathom--the natural unit of depth (they vary anthropomorphically worldwide!)

2. The "tonne" aka metric ton aka whatever way you want to abbreviate it is very close to a Long Ton (our marine unit of weight).  2240 lb = LT while 2204 lb = t.

3. There is no three right now because my brain is dissolving. But there is a 4, 5, 6 except that I just experienced a mental reset.

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3 hours ago, fastyacht said:

There's all sorts of weird coincidences and nonconformities in unit systems. They are all arbritrary and it is all trivial. A consistent set of units can be found with either pounds or Newtons, either Slugs or Kilograms, either inches or meters.

In my experience the centimeter is the European equivalent of a "customary" rather than an "engineering" unit. Ever since cgs went the way of the Dodo in favour of SI, it seems everything (almost) is mm or m.

Now then you have the lucky coincidences that made "metric" possible.
1. The meter is near to a yard. That made that acceptable. That's also half a fathom--the natural unit of depth (they vary anthropomorphically worldwide!)

2. The "tonne" aka metric ton aka whatever way you want to abbreviate it is very close to a Long Ton (our marine unit of weight).  2240 lb = LT while 2204 lb = t.

3. There is no three right now because my brain is dissolving. But there is a 4, 5, 6 except that I just experienced a mental reset.

I've never found beauty in the metric system, only ruthless efficiency.

An inch is a devastatingly human device, it's the length of one of the segments of your index finger. Three inches is the length of three segments, it's the length of the whole index finger. And if you were an intelligent feudal Lord, merchant or farmer, you knew better than to count your product with fingers, you counted your product with digits of your four fingers, using your thumb a pointer. You could count to a dozen on one hand, a gross on two hands. Twelve segments formed a foot. It might have even been close to the size of your own foot. Segments for measuring things like whisky, whole fingers for measuring things like fabric, feet for measuring things like stones and wood, and a stride (a yard) for measuring things like land.

We needed these real life measurements because we didn't have measuring tapes and rulers, we wouldn't have understood them anyway, they would have looked the abstraction of a slde rule.

Metric can't actually exist in a world where we don't all have precision. Suddenly, we no longer prefer the tall woman with long fingers to measure our fabric that we buy. And the short fellow with a short stride may have the disadvantages of the genetic lottery, but he gains a little benefit when he paces and sells a piece of land.

We see this modern need for precision as imperative. We didn't used to care that much though, our transactions were governed by faith in people rather than faith in contraptions.

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Ah jeez, mikey is drinking again......

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10 hours ago, mad said:
14 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

So a leatherman or gerber multi-tool is illegal because (for safety) the blade locks open?  I honestly can't see the logic behind such a restriction. 

It’s not the locking, almost every knife that folds does (never had one that didnt).  It’s the quick, one handed deployment, and use for a quick stab attack that they don’t like. 

It’s called a compromise/common sense law..... somewhere the 2A will head to in a decade or 2 maybe. 

Have you ever tried to actually use a cutting blade on a multi tool?

I have both types mentioned and am faster with the Gerber.

I get it out of its belt pouch and give a flick of my wrist. If it's clean and lubed, the pliers come out. With those out, I can swing the handles apart and expose the blade. If my fingernail is long enough and if it's clean and lubed, I can then open a blade. Now I have a really awkward contraption that need to be folded back up to have a knife that would make a really poor offensive weapon.

That's "quick access" in about the same way that my .22 is a weapon of war. I hope for sense for both of our countries on these topics. As long as we only hear from jocal's elk and I shut up, that should be easily achieved, wouldn't you say?

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9 hours ago, Saorsa said:

My photo gear includes a machete, pruning saw, secateurs, and a couple of knives of various purpose.

Why?  I may need to clear a branch or a little space for a hide.  Sometimes I get found out.

Hunting_Cows.jpg

 

 

8 hours ago, Ishmael said:

You gotta watch out for them moose, they can sneak up on you like nobody's business.

Oh indeed, and cunningly disguised as cattle.

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4 hours ago, mikewof said:

I've never found beauty in the metric system, only ruthless efficiency.

An inch is a devastatingly human device, it's the length of one of the segments of your index finger. Three inches is the length of three segments, it's the length of the whole index finger. And if you were an intelligent feudal Lord, merchant or farmer, you knew better than to count your product with fingers, you counted your product with digits of your four fingers, using your thumb a pointer. You could count to a dozen on one hand, a gross on two hands. Twelve segments formed a foot. It might have even been close to the size of your own foot. Segments for measuring things like whisky, whole fingers for measuring things like fabric, feet for measuring things like stones and wood, and a stride (a yard) for measuring things like land.

We needed these real life measurements because we didn't have measuring tapes and rulers, we wouldn't have understood them anyway, they would have looked the abstraction of a slde rule.

Metric can't actually exist in a world where we don't all have precision. Suddenly, we no longer prefer the tall woman with long fingers to measure our fabric that we buy. And the short fellow with a short stride may have the disadvantages of the genetic lottery, but he gains a little benefit when he paces and sells a piece of land.

We see this modern need for precision as imperative. We didn't used to care that much though, our transactions were governed by faith in people rather than faith in contraptions.

Halves, quarters and eights start getting awkward in metric.

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8 hours ago, Lark said:

Even American machinists cheat and use decimals instead of fractions though, not a 256th of an inch or whatever..   Probably because multiplication of fractions in ones head is so entertaining.

They use decimals to calculate the fractional components of an inch.  The number of inches isn't decimal.

Humans actually have any number of scalar systems.  The ones based on some multiple of another are easy to visualize.  Gill, Pint, quart, gallon are pretty easy to work with.

 

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12 hours ago, JimC said:

No, I don't have a knife I'm not convinced with what I do they are much use. With what I know now even if I did I wouldn't risk taking one off the boat. 

The knife was absolutely and completely irrelevant to what else was going on, but the whole prosecution system gave it a really high priority.

I'm afraid in my opinion the incident disproves your point. Maybe you weren't stopped and searched as often as I was when I was younger.

No not often, but as just about everyone carried a knife they’d of had to arrest all of us. As there was never any problem with knife crime, it was a non issue. 

That case sounds like them latching onto anything to try and get a conviction. He must have had truly shit legal defence for that to happen. 

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Yesterday at the think tank, a commercial fisherman came in with a 45# chunk of just caught swordfish to share. Now, maybe it would have been left to rot in London but we did a quick survey and 11 of the 20 of us were packing (knives), including one of the gals. Still, the day was saved because two different guys had their fishing knife sets in thar trucks. Whooooeee! We all happily left with swordfish steaks. At least half the patrons travel with non-Yeti coolers for just this kind of serendipitous event, including me. I pity you guys in the big cities.

For simpletons, 45# = 20.41166kg

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12 hours ago, JimC said:

No, I don't have a knife I'm not convinced with what I do they are much use. With what I know now even if I did I wouldn't risk taking one off the boat. 

The knife was absolutely and completely irrelevant to what else was going on, but the whole prosecution system gave it a really high priority.

I'm afraid in my opinion the incident disproves your point. Maybe you weren't stopped and searched as often as I was when I was younger.

Jim, that "C" isn't Crow is it?

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4 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

That's "quick access" in about the same way that my .22 is a weapon of war. I hope for sense for both of our countries on these topics. As long as we only hear from jocal's elk and I shut up, that should be easily achieved, wouldn't you say?

You are lost in twenty-two-ville. You operate in a unique world of hurt, over necessary gun restrictions

You can make a big difference here. If you speak often enough, in every possible void in every conversation, indefinitely and forever, you will save the day.

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1 hour ago, Saorsa said:

They use decimals to calculate the fractional components of an inch.  The number of inches isn't decimal.

Humans actually have any number of scalar systems.  The ones based on some multiple of another are easy to visualize.  Gill, Pint, quart, gallon are pretty easy to work with.

 

Milling a part down by .003 of an inch makes it a hybrid system, neither the ancient English "a tad more then 3/1014 " nor the international 76.2 microns.

Pints not being too bad to work with is hardly an endorsement compared to ml and liters.  In reality many of my young employees have trouble with ounces in a quart.    If we expect our children to have a future in international trade, medicine, or most of the sciences we need them to be able to fluently communicate with world leaders in their fields and use the world's system.   Yet we waste time also teaching them an obsolete system largely abandoned by British under 50 (except for nostalgia items like beer) I've been told.   At the same time our kids are behind their international peers in math and science education.   We don't have the luxury of redundant systems.

I admit to thinking in F better then C when in the physiological range, but find it ironic the scale was set with 0 being the temperature ocean water froze and 100 as resting core human body temp when the system was devised.  The primitive early thermometers missed at both ends.   They also were unaware ocean salinity wasn't uniform and human body temperature varied with time of day.

 

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I'm still baffled by the UK that still (last time I was there IIRC) uses miles for distance and mph for speed limits.  I think there were a few other holdovers of English system, but I can't remember it.  

I do firmly believe that the UK adopted the liter as a unit of "petrol", because if people thought of buying petrol by the gallon at £4.50 (or $6.20), there would be a mass revolt.  So buying by the Liter doesn't seem quite so bad. 

I recall not too long ago, it was pretty damn near $10/gal in the UK.  :o  

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10 hours ago, fastyacht said:


Well, that confirms my concerns. Damn what a pain.

What's this about the broken point? What does that have to do with law?

A last gasp straw to try and make a guess. His legal defence should have had that struck from the hearing. 

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15 hours ago, mad said:

It’s not the locking, almost every knife that folds does (never had one that didnt).  It’s the quick, one handed deployment, and use for a quick stab attack that they don’t like. 

It’s called a compromise/common sense law..... somewhere the 2A will head to in a decade or 2 maybe. 

From your cite: 
"

Lock knives are not classed as folding knives and are illegal to carry in public without good reason. Lock knives:

  • have blades that can be locked and refolded only by pressing a button
  • can include multi-tool knives - tools that also contain other devices such as a screwdriver or can opener"

Not bustin' your stones, I'm trying to understand - I have a Gereber multi-tool that goes everywhere with me - and it's pretty clearly articulated here as being classified as an "illegal lock knife". 

 

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1 hour ago, Lark said:

Milling a part down by .003 of an inch makes it a hybrid system, neither the ancient English "a tad more then 3/1014 " nor the international 76.2 microns.

Pints not being too bad to work with is hardly an endorsement compared to ml and liters.  In reality many of my young employees have trouble with ounces in a quart.    If we expect our children to have a future in international trade, medicine, or most of the sciences we need them to be able to fluently communicate with world leaders in their fields and use the world's system.   Yet we waste time also teaching them an obsolete system largely abandoned by British under 50 (except for nostalgia items like beer) I've been told.   At the same time our kids are behind their international peers in math and science education.   We don't have the luxury of redundant systems.

I admit to thinking in F better then C when in the physiological range, but find it ironic the scale was set with 0 being the temperature ocean water froze and 100 as resting core human body temp when the system was devised.  The primitive early thermometers missed at both ends.   They also were unaware ocean salinity wasn't uniform and human body temperature varied with time of day.

 

us-gallon-quart-pint-cup.svg

OH, the poor children.

Lots of us think in both or either/or depending on what we are doing.  We also do Degrees, minutes and seconds and can consider vectors and stuff.  Matter of fact, I don't bother converting unless necessary, just use the scale appropriate at the time.

My first 5 years in England were Pounds, Shillings and Pence.  They decimalized while I was back in the states.  On my second sojourn the brits laughed when I couldn't figure out the coinage for the first week or so. 

One of my problems with Canadians down here is that they think the speed limit signs are in KPH not MPH.

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6 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Have you ever tried to actually use a cutting blade on a multi tool?

I have both types mentioned and am faster with the Gerber.

I get it out of its belt pouch and give a flick of my wrist. If it's clean and lubed, the pliers come out. With those out, I can swing the handles apart and expose the blade. If my fingernail is long enough and if it's clean and lubed, I can then open a blade. Now I have a really awkward contraption that need to be folded back up to have a knife that would make a really poor offensive weapon.

That's "quick access" in about the same way that my .22 is a weapon of war. I hope for sense for both of our countries on these topics. As long as we only hear from jocal's elk and I shut up, that should be easily achieved, wouldn't you say?

Tom, the point of discussion is not about a fucking multi tool knife. It’s about a gravity knife/single bladed knife that can be opened one-handed. They’re just a toy in my book, vaguely convenient if needed, but far from ideal. 

And do us all a favour, shut the fuck up about your fucking .22 issue. It has nothing to do with this subject. 

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3 hours ago, Saorsa said:

They use decimals to calculate the fractional components of an inch.  The number of inches isn't decimal.

Humans actually have any number of scalar systems.  The ones based on some multiple of another are easy to visualize.  Gill, Pint, quart, gallon are pretty easy to work with.

 

Apart from the fact that a US pint is different from a UK pint. 

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4 minutes ago, mad said:

Tom, the point of discussion is not about a fucking multi tool knife. It’s about a gravity knife/single bladed knife that can be opened one-handed. They’re just a toy in my book, vaguely convenient if needed, but far from ideal. 

And do us all a favour, shut the fuck up about your fucking .22 issue. It has nothing to do with this subject. 

But you were replying to a post about multi tools, not gravity knives, and your post referenced our second amendment.

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25 minutes ago, mad said:

Apart from the fact that a US pint is different from a UK pint. 

I know, So are the gallon, quart, etc.  But, the proportions are the same.

The upside is your car will get better mileage.

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31 minutes ago, mad said:

Tom, the point of discussion is not about a fucking multi tool knife. It’s about a gravity knife/single bladed knife that can be opened one-handed. They’re just a toy in my book, vaguely convenient if needed, but far from ideal. 

And do us all a favour, shut the fuck up about your fucking .22 issue. It has nothing to do with this subject. 

Maybe that's what the law should make clear.

WAIT, we just need another one.

 

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2 hours ago, jocal505 said:

You are lost in twenty-two-ville. You operate in a unique world of hurt, over necessary gun restrictions

You can make a big difference here. If you speak often enough, in every possible void in every conversation, indefinitely and forever, you will save the day.

Fuck off Jo, take your shit show to one of the other multiple gun threads going on. 

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On 5/29/2018 at 6:52 PM, mad said:
On 5/29/2018 at 1:58 PM, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

So a leatherman or gerber multi-tool is illegal because (for safety) the blade locks open?  I honestly can't see the logic behind such a restriction. 

It’s not the locking, almost every knife that folds does (never had one that didnt).  It’s the quick, one handed deployment, and use for a quick stab attack that they don’t like. 

It’s called a compromise/common sense law.

Did you happen to notice the type of weapons A Guy was talking about?

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11 hours ago, Lark said:

Milling a part down by .003 of an inch makes it a hybrid system, neither the ancient English "a tad more then 3/1014 " nor the international 76.2 microns.

Pints not being too bad to work with is hardly an endorsement compared to ml and liters.  In reality many of my young employees have trouble with ounces in a quart.    If we expect our children to have a future in international trade, medicine, or most of the sciences we need them to be able to fluently communicate with world leaders in their fields and use the world's system.   Yet we waste time also teaching them an obsolete system largely abandoned by British under 50 (except for nostalgia items like beer) I've been told.   At the same time our kids are behind their international peers in math and science education.   We don't have the luxury of redundant systems.

I admit to thinking in F better then C when in the physiological range, but find it ironic the scale was set with 0 being the temperature ocean water froze and 100 as resting core human body temp when the system was devised.  The primitive early thermometers missed at both ends.   They also were unaware ocean salinity wasn't uniform and human body temperature varied with time of day.

 

But if metric is so easy, why do you need to teach it?

 

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11 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

From your cite: 
"

Lock knives are not classed as folding knives and are illegal to carry in public without good reason. Lock knives:

  • have blades that can be locked and refolded only by pressing a button
  • can include multi-tool knives - tools that also contain other devices such as a screwdriver or can opener"

Not bustin' your stones, I'm trying to understand - I have a Gereber multi-tool that goes everywhere with me - and it's pretty clearly articulated here as being classified as an "illegal lock knife". 

 

AND, on the Spyderco site, last time I checked, they had a bunch of "UK compliant" versions of good knives. They had 3" non-locking blades. In other words, they suck.
God. England has devolved into lunatic nannystate shit.

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2 hours ago, fastyacht said:

AND, on the Spyderco site, last time I checked, they had a bunch of "UK compliant" versions of good knives. They had 3" non-locking blades. In other words, they suck.
God. England has devolved into lunatic nannystate shit.

Now they need the NHS to ban non-locking knives because they are dangerous to the user. 

Next year every citizen will have to turn in all their cutlery and will be issued a spork.

8872880242718.jpg

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13 hours ago, mad said:

(to Tom) And do us all a favour, shut the fuck up about your fucking .22 issue. It has nothing to do with this subject. 

Yeah. Which was the point of my post.

Quote

(Joe to Tom) You are lost in twenty-two-ville.

 

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18 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I'm still baffled by the UK that still (last time I was there IIRC) uses miles for distance and mph for speed limits.  I think there were a few other holdovers of English system, but I can't remember it.  

I do firmly believe that the UK adopted the liter as a unit of "petrol", because if people thought of buying petrol by the gallon at £4.50 (or $6.20), there would be a mass revolt.  So buying by the Liter doesn't seem quite so bad. 

I recall not too long ago, it was pretty damn near $10/gal in the UK.  :o  

Litre. ;)

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41 minutes ago, mad said:
18 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I'm still baffled by the UK that still (last time I was there IIRC) uses miles for distance and mph for speed limits.  I think there were a few other holdovers of English system, but I can't remember it.  

I do firmly believe that the UK adopted the liter as a unit of "petrol", because if people thought of buying petrol by the gallon at £4.50 (or $6.20), there would be a mass revolt.  So buying by the Liter doesn't seem quite so bad. 

I recall not too long ago, it was pretty damn near $10/gal in the UK.  :o  

Litre. ;)

Potato.

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6 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Now they need the NHS to ban non-locking knives because they are dangerous to the user. 

Next year every citizen will have to turn in all their cutlery and will be issued a spork.

8872880242718.jpg

OH, For gawds sake

YOU COULD PUT SOMEBODIES EYE OUT WITH THAT!!!!!!!!!

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