Blue Crab

Immigrant Children

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This shouldn't be a partisan issue. Nobody wants to see what's going on but the big question is what to do? I guess many would have us open the borders. Then what? That's a serious question.

Being nice has consequences.

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Ok, I'm an immigrant child. You didn't even get ten pounds for me.

you put me in a migrant Hostal, sent me to school. I became a loyal public. Servant and citizen.

What's changed?

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45 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Ok, I'm an immigrant child. You didn't even get ten pounds for me.

you put me in a migrant Hostal, sent me to school. I became a loyal public. Servant and citizen.

What's changed?

What was your age at the time? Some of these kids are less than two years old with parents seeking asylum. 

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There were four of us, ages 4,7,10 and 13.

that's a collective 25 years of basic edu costs  to the taxpayer before we could be in any way "useful" 

My parents were "Economic" migrants.

What's changed?

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8 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Ok, I'm an immigrant child. You didn't even get ten pounds for me.

you put me in a migrant Hostal, sent me to school. I became a loyal public. Servant and citizen.

What's changed?

Did you sneak over the border and live in the shadows for decades?  Or did you come over legally and follow the rules of your host country?  

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it's not the point.

the point is that for some reason and in some cases governments are willing to provide years of support to any number of unproductive children. I wasn.t even given any identity docs. Just one of four on a single document issued to my father.

Its kind of curious, some people got off the boat and simply disappeared into the city with their kids.

I probably only existed because I was registered for school.

we were not counted in any yearly quota, my parents could have brought ten kids with them. So it can,t have anything to do with population control.

So what's all the fuss about undocumented kids?

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9 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

This shouldn't be a partisan issue. Nobody wants to see what's going on but the big question is what to do? I guess many would have us open the borders. Then what? That's a serious question.

Being nice has consequences.

To answer this serious question actually requires some serious thought, serious reflection and serious planning.

few governments these days seem to be willing to work with other governments on an equal footing on this issue.

we need long term planning for the massive environmental migration that's otherwise going to catch all "first world" countries flat footed.

this little border control blip is a good place to practice exchanging new ideas rather than resorting to the old knee jerk reactions.

Heres an opportunity to brainstorm the issue.

ok., how about this.

volutary people swap

Old people like to retire where it,s warm. Many don't have the money to go to Floriduh..but..are wealthy compared to people in some of those lovely warm but impoverished southern countries.

 

old people cost a lot in medical and supported care.

Those lovely warm but impoverished countries could take our "wealthy" retiree (who have no future economic value)

exchange them for a young family with kids.

its a win win for both countries

First world countries all have a falling birth rate and a boomer bubble. These kids will fill the void nicely in 15 years when we will need more well educated young people than we are supplying ourselves.

the impoverished countries get an immediate cash injection from the retirees. This assists their economy so in 10 years there will be no reason for young families to immigrate.

win win

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14 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

This shouldn't be a partisan issue. Nobody wants to see what's going on but the big question is what to do? I guess many would have us open the borders. Then what? That's a serious question.

Being nice has consequences.

Treat it like a supply and demand issue first.  

Address the demand before addressing supply.  Require E-Verify for every job, everywhere in the US.  The E-Verify system is already in place. Put some teeth in it.  Jail time for people hiring illegal labor.  That will bring illegal immigration to a trickle, if the US Chamber of Commerce doesn't tie it up in the courts forever, like it did with the Arizona law.  

The second step would be to have a good look at that remaining trickle and do a cost benefit analysis of stopping it completely.  Yeah, these children could very well end up as democRATS, and they could certainly reproduce at some point, perhaps at a faster rate than the folks that they scare so much; both very disturbing issues.  But I am not convinced that they are a threat to our society.  

That's what to do.  

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15 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

This shouldn't be a partisan issue. Nobody wants to see what's going on but the big question is what to do? I guess many would have us open the borders. Then what? That's a serious question.

Being nice has consequences.

The state has no right to kidnap the illegal entry's child. PERIOD! Send them back together for fuck's sake. 

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1 minute ago, Mickey Rat said:

The state has no right to kidnap the illegal entry's child. PERIOD! Send them back together for fuck's sake. 

Where’s the deterrence in that? 

John Kelly -

In the effort to enforce U.S. border laws, "a big name of the game is deterrence," he explained. And separating families "could be a tough deterrent." 

Kelly disputed the notion that such action was cruel. 

"The children will be taken care of — put into foster care or whatever," Kelly said. "But the big point is they elected to come illegally into the United States and this is a technique that no one hopes will be used extensively or for very long." 

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Awhile back I half-jokingly said we needed the Wall to stop cheating employers from hiring illegals, and as Sol points out that's clearly part of the problem. And that's something that's possible. Perhaps the Nat'l Guard troops could round up the undocumented workers, starting with the biggest farms, arresting the owners thus leaving the Border Patrol free for their jobs. This would put a serious squeeze on farmers to harvest crops, raising the costs of labor and ultimately prices at the grocery store but it is what it is. Green card holders could be bused in to harvest but could do so with dignity from now on, on the level, and at a min wage rather than what's happening now. And I fully endorse Gouv's plan for a way to citizenship for folks playing it straight. If only it could be this easy, eh?

Another aspect is the two Mexican borders these folks must cross to get here. Surely someone smarter than me has a reasonable idea for that problem short of an expeditionary force at the Guatemalan borders, altho I'm not against that.

And to the extent that many are actually fleeing for their lives, I'm not against setting the Marines loose on the gangs in El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala, and Mexico for that matter. Those countries are out of governmental control, have been for a very long time, and it has become a national security issue in my opinion.

And we're punishing the nice folks, overall, who are trying to stay alive. That is fucked up. Even more fucked up is separating these families from their children. That's not the American Way.

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10 minutes ago, Sean said:

"The children will be taken care of — put into foster care or whatever," Kelly said. "But the big point is they elected to come illegally into the United States and this is a technique that no one hopes will be used extensively or for very long." 

 

Are you kidding? Sending them home with their parents is deterrent enough. No need to kidnap them and besides WTF do you think you are going to do with them after the kidnapping, if unclaimed, put them up for adaption and give them citizenship? Un-fucking-believable.  

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At some point we need to stop doing every single thing in the most inefficient and expensive way possible. Building walls and putting troops on the border is both. Take away the incentive.

Then take steps to address the issue of living up to who we are supposed to be, according to those words linked to the Statue of Liberty. 

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4 minutes ago, Mickey Rat said:

Are you kidding? Sending them home with their parents is deterrent enough. No need to kidnap them and besides WTF do you think you are going to do with them after the kidnapping, if unclaimed, put them up for adaption and give them citizenship? Un-fucking-believable.  

They could be given seasonal work at Mar a Lago at a most competitive rate that would allow them to lift themselves up by their bootstraps like their boss did. 

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1 hour ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Treat it like a supply and demand issue first.  

Address the demand before addressing supply.  Require E-Verify for every job, everywhere in the US.  The E-Verify system is already in place. Put some teeth in it.  Jail time for people hiring illegal labor.  That will bring illegal immigration to a trickle, if the US Chamber of Commerce doesn't tie it up in the courts forever, like it did with the Arizona law.  

The second step would be to have a good look at that remaining trickle and do a cost benefit analysis of stopping it completely.  Yeah, these children could very well end up as democRATS, and they could certainly reproduce at some point, perhaps at a faster rate than the folks that they scare so much; both very disturbing issues.  But I am not convinced that they are a threat to our society.  

That's what to do.  

I agree with all of that.  But I think the immediate good benefit of putting some teeth into e-verify is that when the immigrant flow drops to a trickle, the good Americans in the Chamber of Commerce will start demanding a fix to the immigration system to make it more efficient and allow more workers to come in faster.  Because good Americans like those in the CoC, and unlike democRATs, loves them some immigrant workers.  Put pressure on them and they WILL get the system fixerated.  Because they will start $peaking out.  

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7 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

it's not the point.

No, actually it IS the entire point.  

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I am 100% behind Sol's vision, starting today. Like so many other issues, we already have the laws/regs in place but no political will to git 'er done. How to light a fire under our "leaders?" My guess is Big Ag pulls a lot of strings. Maybe a couple of those big farmers need to be taken down a peg or two. Obviously the Rs won't be doing it but there's plenty of Ds out west that might not be on the take.

I can see someone willing to take on this huge problem easily winning in 2020.

Sol?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Neither the R's or the D's want this fixed.  For both, it's an issue that they used to divide and paint "the other party" as the villains.  A reasonable solution that recognizes that we need immigration with some controls and already have the tools to do it takes away the issue. 

Then what?  We'll need another decisive issue to be a voting litmus test.  Of course, there are always A$$A*** Wea****s.    

 

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3 hours ago, Sean said:

"But the big point is they elected to come illegally into the United States

they ............. the children ?

will it  be long before salt will be ploughed  ?

 

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2 hours ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

 

Then take steps to address the issue of living up to who we are supposed to be, according to those words linked to the Statue of Liberty. 

hear , hear .

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1 hour ago, Blue Crab said:

I am 100% behind Sol's vision, starting today. Like so many other issues, we already have the laws/regs in place but no political will to git 'er done. How to light a fire under our "leaders?" My guess is Big Ag pulls a lot of strings. Maybe a couple of those big farmers need to be taken down a peg or two. Obviously the Rs won't be doing it but there's plenty of Ds out west that might not be on the take.

I can see someone willing to take on this huge problem easily winning in 2020.

Sol?

 

Watch what happens in the FL Governor GOP primary.  Ron DeSantis voted against the Ag Bill, which translates to "voted against giving US Sugar and FloSun their $4 Billion Subsidy."  Watch what they do to him in his race against Adam Putnam.  One of those two is our next Governor, because the other party cannot seem to bother to field a real candidate.  The nasty ads will begin in a month or so, and will run through the August primary, at which point it will seem like DeSantis is somewhere left of Obama.  

What can we do?  Use the power of technology.  All congressmen and Senators have a contact system set up on their webpage.  I write mine all the time, if only to let them know that they have some constituents that don't listen to what the boob tube says.  I make sure to let them know that I have left both parties in my lifetime, and that I vote on the basis of issues, before identifying the issue about which I am writing.  When DeSantis was my congressman (before our districts were ruled illegal because of gerrymandering, resulting in me ending up in YooHoo for Yoho's district), he always wrote back, and if he disagreed, he didn't pussyfoot around it (like Yoho does); he told me why he disagreed.  I wrote to Sen. Rubio about Puerto Rico relief after Maria, and he has been pretty good on that, but that was a no-brainer for anyone in a statewide office in FL, because Orlando (the vote-rich I-4 corridor) has a huge PR population and they can vote.  Sen. Nelson's office is the most responsive for me, especially when I needed help with Cuba issues. His staffers are all-stars in my book.   

I used to work on the Hill, so I know how much those guys love this stuff.  It falls into the category of "constituent service", that some staffer can handle.  Good public relations.  Write them often, regardless of your views.  Let them know that there are real people that think these things, not just pollsters making calls with skewed questions, and lobbyists writing checks and looking for favors.  

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6 hours ago, Sean said:

Where’s the deterrence in that? 

John Kelly -

In the effort to enforce U.S. border laws, "a big name of the game is deterrence," he explained. And separating families "could be a tough deterrent." 

Kelly disputed the notion that such action was cruel. 

"The children will be taken care of — put into foster care or whatever," Kelly said. "But the big point is they elected to come illegally into the United States and this is a technique that no one hopes will be used extensively or for very long." 

It's a terrific idea.

if my babies had a choice of staying with me in a place like .........? Fill in your favourite communist, fascist, shithole.

risking death by ....fill in you favourite killer.

Or having them brought up in the USA (and I can be sure that with the focus that will be kept on such kids, they'll be adiquately cared for)

I'd simply walk up to the nearest border and hand em over.. With their name, dob and nothing else. 

 

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6 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

No, actually it IS the entire point.  

To you maybe.

some think a little deeper than..."they broke the law" some would say. "The law's an ass"

especially when it's routinely ignored when economically oportune to do so.

immigration is always about the economy, stupid.

If you enforced your employment laws, extended legal immigration to cover the unskilled work ( like picking crops and the other things you Americans won't do) 

you wouldn't have a problem with illegals or unpicked crops.

in fact it would expand your economy because these new unskilled legal immigrants tend to work bloody hard. And, seeing as the would now be getting the legal minimum wage ..more money goes into basic stuff, like food and rent.

the only thing you have to cope with is you g grandkids being brownish and prolly speaking Spanish.

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6 hours ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

At some point we need to stop doing every single thing in the most inefficient and expensive way possible. Building walls and putting troops on the border is both. Take away the incentive.

Then take steps to address the issue of living up to who we are supposed to be, according to those words linked to the Statue of Liberty. 

You don't get to say who we are supposed to be.  You can say what you would like us to be.

The Statue of Liberty stands to welcome those who entered in accordance with the laws of the day.

Assigning your own neo-dipshit understanding doesn't change that.

The words I lift my lamp beside the golden door!  mean that we need the light to see who is showing up at the door, not coming in around the side.

Who dat?

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Does your golden lamp thing apply to lighthouses. Only to see who der? And switch it off if they're a bit brownish.

sad to say I think your  "leaders" may have taken a tip from the misbegotten cur that decided that when it comes to brown people, the end justifies the means.

(thought they can Cloke our bastardry with the indisputable fact that no one as far as we know has drowned in the last 5 years)

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5 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Does your golden lamp thing apply to lighthouses. Only to see who der ?

Nope, just to see who's at the door and should be allowed in.

That's what doors are for.  Golden or otherwise.

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12 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Nope, just to see who's at the door and should be allowed in.

That's what doors are for.  Golden or otherwise.

 

12 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Nope, just to see who's at the door and should be allowed in.

That's what doors are for.  Golden or otherwise.

I always thought they were to keep the cat amused.

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3 hours ago, Saorsa said:

You don't get to say who we are supposed to be.  You can say what you would like us to be.

The Statue of Liberty stands to welcome those who entered in accordance with the laws of the day.

Assigning your own neo-dipshit understanding doesn't change that.

The words I lift my lamp beside the golden door!  mean that we need the light to see who is showing up at the door, not coming in around the side.

Who dat?

I always thought the Lady's lamp was a beacon for the hopeful and downtrodden, not a security device.

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4 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

the only thing you have to cope with is you g grandkids being brownish and prolly speaking Spanish

I’ve got a brownish grandson who will be bilingual. Handsome little fella. 

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3 hours ago, Ishmael said:

I always thought the Lady's lamp was a beacon for the hopeful and downtrodden, not a security device.

The poem isn't very clear.  But, it is a door she guards, not a red line in the sand or a welcome mat.

A door is an opening in a wall that can be opened or closed at will.

 

 

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11 hours ago, Sean said:

I’ve got a brownish grandson who will be bilingual. Handsome little fella. 

Mine is half Korean, and packs some dynamite DNA. It's happening.

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3 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

Mine is half Korean, and packs some dynamite DNA. It's happening.

Was his heart born on the outside?

 

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Nah, he's 3 and perfect. His eyes suggest an Asian component. His mom is drop dead gorgeous. A very all American family.

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Taking Migrant Children From Parents Is Illegal, U.N. Tells U.S.

Quote

The Trump administration’s practice of separating children from migrant families entering the United States violates their rights and international law, the United Nations human rights office said on Tuesday, urging an immediate halt to the practice.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/05/world/americas/us-un-migrant-children-families.html

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There's a simple fix to this..... don't illegally cross the US border with your children.  

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Des Moines Dreamer Killed in Mexico Weeks After Being Sent Back by ICE

Source: The Daily Beast



An Iowa high school student brought to the U.S. from Mexico at the age of 3 was killed less than a month after U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement sent him back to one of the most dangerous states in Mexico. Manuel Antonio Cano-Pacheco, who was allowed to remain in the U.S. under the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program, was escorted back to Mexico by ICE officers under a “voluntary departure” late last month, according to the Des Moines Register. According to an ICE statement cited by the Register, he’d attracted the attention of immigration authorities after several misdemeanor charges, including one for driving under the influence. Three weeks after arriving in Zacatecas, a state known for violent drug wars, Cano-Pacheco had his throat slit while going out for food with an acquaintance. “He was in the wrong place at the wrong time,” Juan Verduzco, a friend of Cano-Pacheco, told the Register. Verduzco blamed his friend’s misdemeanor convictions on a spiraling depression triggered after his father was sent to prison. 

READ IT AT THE DES MOINES REGISTER 

###

Read more: https://www.thedailybeast.com/des-moines-dreamer-killed-in-mexico-weeks-after-being-sent-back-by-ice?ref=home 

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At least the dog cages are clean.

Senator Merkley finally got to see the facility where the American government keeps children in kennels like fucking dogs.

DfDL73cUwAACH4f.jpg

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2 hours ago, badlatitude said:

At least the dog cages are clean.

Senator Merkley finally got to see the facility where the American government keeps children in kennels like fucking dogs.

DfDL73cUwAACH4f.jpg

No comment from Jeffie?

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Yeah, don't throw stones in glass houses

Malaysian-refugees.jpg

children-detention-overview.jpg

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On 5/29/2018 at 4:14 PM, Shortforbob said:

it's not the point.

the point is that for some reason and in some cases governments are willing to provide years of support to any number of unproductive children. I wasn.t even given any identity docs. Just one of four on a single document issued to my father.

Its kind of curious, some people got off the boat and simply disappeared into the city with their kids.

I probably only existed because I was registered for school.

we were not counted in any yearly quota, my parents could have brought ten kids with them. So it can,t have anything to do with population control.

So what's all the fuss about undocumented kids?

That was then, this is now. Then, we wanted migrants and allowed lots of people in. Now, we'd deport you in a heartbeat if we found you arrived without paperwork. In fact if you committed a crime carrying a sentence of 12 months jail or more and you hadn't actually taken out Australian citizenship, we'll still deport you even if you did arrive as a 4 year old 40+ years ago. A bunch of Kiwis have found that out the hard way.

FKT

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So..it always was and always has been and always will be about the economic advantage of the receiving country.

letsnot hear any more claptrap about giving to the huddled and unwanted masses etc.

The USA has never been generous to migrants after their first step on shore. Or Australia or anywhere else needing labour.

where Trump and Jeffie have it wrong is the USA still does need those immigrants children to do the work that the American great unwashed will no longer do for subststance wages.

The very same trumpetts and Hansonites for that matter will turn our countries brown again..full circle as is always was and always will be ...amen

suck it up  :D

 

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46 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

So..it always was and always has been and always will be about the economic advantage of the receiving country.  Yes, why would you think any differently???

letsnot hear any more claptrap about giving to the huddled and unwanted masses etc.  OK

The USA has never been generous to migrants after their first step on shore. Or Australia or anywhere else needing labour.  If they served our needs, then yes we have been very generous.  If they sneak in and break the law, then they can have the generosity of my boot in their ass.

where Trump and Jeffie have it wrong is the USA still does need those immigrants children to do the work that the American great unwashed will no longer do for subststance wages.  I don't have that wrong in the slightest.  We absolutely need immigration to fill the job market.  The difference is I want immigrants to come here legally and follow the rules.  I admit the current immigration system doesn't work well, but that's no excuse to sneak across the border and enter my country illegally.  All the bleeding hearts that don't like to see illegals in cages can get off their fucking asses and work to fix the immigration system so that we can efficiently bring immigrants here legally.

The very same trumpetts and Hansonites for that matter will turn our countries brown again..full circle as is always was and always will be ...amen

suck it up  :D  No

 

What part of "ILLEGAL" do you not fucking get?

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15 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

What part of "ILLEGAL" do you not fucking get?

So..... to you, it's all about punishing poor brown people?

-DSK

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2 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

So..... to you, it's all about punishing poor brown people?

Where would you get that idea from???  If they got in line at the entry like they were supposed to, there would be nothing to punish.  I didn't hold a gun to their head and made them break the law by sneaking across the border.  

I don't want to punish them at all.  I want them to come here legally.  And I want to deter the ones who are not doing it legally from doing it it at all.  

Get the difference?

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11 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Where would you get that idea from???  If they got in line at the entry like they were supposed to, there would be nothing to punish.  I didn't hold a gun to their head and made them break the law by sneaking across the border.  

I don't want to punish them at all.  I want them to come here legally.  And I want to deter the ones who are not doing it legally from doing it it at all.  

Get the difference?

No, there really isn't one. You have said nothing about how to address all the people already here who didn't wait in line at an entry, who are already here by the millions.... other than "WHAT PART OF ILLEGAL DON'T YOU GET"....... which suggests punishment as your main objective, they've committed a goddam CRIME!!!!!

The fact that the system of "waiting in line at an entry" is badly broken and gotten more so lately, is a big reason why they keep coming and I haven't seen any positive suggestions about that either.

I guess just as long as you're not screaming what criminals and rapists they are, we should count you as one of the concerned defenders of the plighted immigrant, right? Punishing them appropriately for BREAKING THE LAW will help them assimilate, of course.

-DSK

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19 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

No, there really isn't one. You have said nothing about how to address all the people already here who didn't wait in line at an entry, who are already here by the millions.... other than "WHAT PART OF ILLEGAL DON'T YOU GET"....... which suggests punishment as your main objective, they've committed a goddam CRIME!!!!!

The fact that the system of "waiting in line at an entry" is badly broken and gotten more so lately, is a big reason why they keep coming and I haven't seen any positive suggestions about that either.

I guess just as long as you're not screaming what criminals and rapists they are, we should count you as one of the concerned defenders of the plighted immigrant, right? Punishing them appropriately for BREAKING THE LAW will help them assimilate, of course.

-DSK

We are not talking about the people who are already here.  And I've very clearly in the past addressed that.  On numerous occasions.  I've also talked at length about how I would fix the immigration system to make it more efficient and effective.  Search is your friend.

We are talking about the people who keep coming over illegally.  That's what this thread is about.  That needs to stop.  And no, the broken system is not what "makes" them keep coming here.  What makes them keep coming here are short-sighted asshats such as yourself who advocate looking the other way as a solution to the problem.

Since you brought it up though..... what are YOUR grand ideas to fix the broken entry system and to deal with the current millions of people who are already here that snuck into this country illegally??

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34 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

We are not talking about the people who are already here. 

Umm, yes, you are.

If you are yelling angrily about "ILLEGAL" then they are already here........ if they're not here, no US law has been broken has it?

About your other suggestions, maybe so. Maybe it wouldn't hurt your feelings for me to say that I don't hang on your every word here, so maybe a breif reminder?

As for my ideas, glad you asked. I think that if people have come here for freedom, for a chance at a better life, then they should have  job (and pay taxes) and their kids should be in school. It should be made easier to get them into the system, and eventually earn citizenship. If employers of illegal immigrants had an easy & inexpensive way to get them into the system, and sure prosecution with punishment if they don't comply, would be a better stick than building and filling concentration camps.

-DSK

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If employers of illegal immigrants had an easy & inexpensive way to get them into the system, and sure prosecution with punishment if they don't comply, would be a better stick than building and filling concentration camps. -DSK

Indeed. And Jeff has advocated for that very thing. I've suggested we need the WALL to shut off the pipeline of illegal workers that the robber barons of Big Ag take advantage of. Of course, following the laws we already have would be a lot cheaper than the wall but those western coastal elites tend to side with, if not Big Ag, than the notion of open borders, sanctuary cities and whatnot rather than follow and enforce THE FUCKING LAWS WE ALREADY HAVE. Please pardon my shouting. 

Are we really a nation of laws? If so why aren't they enforced? Don't like a law? Change it. The Border Patrol or ICE could rapidly solve many problems by enforcement. Why don't they? The fix is in.

Why doesn't Congress slap the crap out of presidents starting wars? The fix is in.

Why do we allow Big Anythings to cheat us and rob us blind with pricing and no taxation? The fix is in.

And most importantly, how do we get The People interested enough to turn off their radios and tvs long enough to think about this?

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We should be insisting that

employers pay the necessary taxes on these guest workers, and not do it under the table, and guest workers would pay taxes,  so that they could get necessary medical care, for example, and put anyone who is exploiting them in jail, so they might not live in fear.

require classes on the American Revolution, Style of government and life of every single guest worker, evenings if necessary.  (Kind of like citizenship classes) 

guarantee money sent back to families arrives and is not  siphoned off in corruption and bribery

this way, guest workers would start to look at civil government as a positive force, learn to dispise and hate corruption, and most importantly, carry the American Revolution back with them when they go back home - perhaps even with skills to create change- 

this would change things in a number of ways.......

Changing expectations?

:)

Of course this would require the Trump administration to be jailed........

 

 

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3 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Where would you get that idea from???  If they got in line at the entry like they were supposed to, there would be nothing to punish.  I didn't hold a gun to their head and made them break the law by sneaking across the border.  

I don't want to punish them at all.  I want them to come here legally.  And I want to deter the ones who are not doing it legally from doing it it at all.  

Get the difference?

Jeffie poo, no one invited your lot to the land of the west or had you conveniently forgotten that your lot sneaked in too?

im pretty sure that but for poor communication and chaotic local gov at the time, your lot would be illegal too.(now why does that sound familiar)

suck it up...and yep, that applies to us too...call it social evolution :D

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Let’s back up a bit.. 

currently  the following is occurring:

a family presents itself at our border and asks for asylum 

we lock up the parents in separate facilities for males and females. We lock up the children in a separate program.

we let them all sit for months or even years 

 

Are we that fucking broke we can’t better accomodate  people seeking asylum ?

Asylum?!?!?

Fer fuck sake!! What kind of shits have we become?? 

Will some abuse the system?? 

Most assuredly!!

what is the result of system abuse:

a. It could be bad guys sneaking in to fuck us over . ( We oughta be able to keep an eye on the asylum seekers )

b. It could be folks who will try anything to get a chance to live the American Dream. ( I fully understand. I am one of those folks.... but I just happened to pop out between Mom’s legs  in a New Jersey hospital.)  

c. Maybe  they  want welfare and healthcare. 

—- putting them in jail costs way more than welfare and solves what?? 

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4 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Jeffie poo, no one invited your lot to the land of the west or had you conveniently forgotten that your lot sneaked in too?

im pretty sure that but for poor communication and chaotic local gov at the time, your lot would be illegal too.(now why does that sound familiar)

suck it up...and yep, that applies to us too...call it social evolution :D

Nobody missed the modest mental mush, Meli. We didn't climb fences, swim or sneak in. We weren't sent here as a penal colony. We came, we saw, we took over. That's the American Way. No apologies. No liberal crying changes the past. No tsk, tsking makes any difference.

We created a place open to all, a place where work allowed access to riches beyond anyone's dreams.

Social evolution is certainly happening and folks are piling up at the southern borders. If Mexico doesn't care for them, most will die within sight of America, likely without a thought or clue or care of the legalities.

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20 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

Nobody missed the modest mental mush, Meli. We didn't climb fences, swim or sneak in. We weren't sent here as a penal colony. We came, we saw, we took over. That's the American Way. No apologies. No liberal crying changes the past. No tsk, tsking makes any difference.

We created a place open to all, a place where work allowed access to riches beyond anyone's dreams.

Social evolution is certainly happening and folks are piling up at the southern borders. If Mexico doesn't care for them, most will die within sight of America, likely without a thought or clue or care of the legalities.

You see it's the nonsense in the second para I object too..using an iPad so can't highlight..have you any idea of the numbers that came to the USA and were exploited to death..some made it, some needed special talents to succeed well..some..simply exploited, scammed lied and cheated..Gentlemen...I give you the president of the United snakes of America.

other countries actually fed and housed their immigrants, until they could find work, gee..those governments even way back had a working beaurocracy to place these  people in work..and a system to report exploitation...guess what..they even had a system to give ...that's right..give land ..land..thousands of acres of the stuff..all legal and recorded..to emancipists and new migrants..whose passage they paid for...sucked for the ingiginees of course..but don't give me shit about the USA creating some kind of paradise..it was nothing more than a roulette wheel..you paid your money and took your chances. If you were lucky or a rougue you made it.

 

and don,t kid yourself, you sneaked in..a few at a time, taking the locals for fools that if not for them, your young colonies would have perished and bit the hand that fed..( as we did)

now the new world countries ate getting their tits in a tangle and knickers in knots because someone now comes begging ate YOUR door.

the indigmation self righteousness and hypocracy is kind af sad.

 

 

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"We created a place open to all, a place where work allowed access to riches beyond anyone's dreams."

Most of us have found that the harder we work, the luckier we are. The key word above is access.  Some folks made it. Others did not. That you grew up with another view of history in a different system is apparent, but your personal opinions really don't mean jack. Consider yer boon companion, Capt. Random. He doesn't like much about America and sez so frequently. I haven't noticed that anyone gives a crap. Most think he's nuts. When all you have is squeaky wheels and whines, folks get real tired of providing grease and cheese. Bring your own and stand in line. No one alive is responsible for how things occurred and played out in the past. We own it kid, even when we are not all that proud of it. 

With no offense intended to our Oz or other friends who attempt reason with their responses.

 

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Random's no boon companion of mine.

there is a significant difference in my posts and his....he's nuts, paranoid, and seemingly hates the USA 

I simply try to be as honest as I can be, I'm not a patriot and don't swallow sentiment too well.

The USA was colonised by carpetbaggers, religious zealots and poor bastards that swallowed the hype..some made it to fame and wealth..most became servants of one type or another. 

The only difference between us and you is we had a solid beauracracy behind us.

you can get shitty, or acknowledge that the USA and its foundation is just as flawed as anywhere else. 

Insert rolleyes

 

 

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49 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

...I simply try to be as honest as I can be, I'm not a patriot and don't swallow sentiment too well.

The USA was colonised by carpetbaggers, religious zealots and poor bastards that swallowed the hype..some made it to fame and wealth..most became servants of one type or another. 

The only difference between us and you is we had a solid beauracracy behind us.

you can get shitty, or acknowledge that the USA and its foundation is just as flawed as anywhere else. 

Insert rolleyes

To quote myself, No one alive is responsible for how things occurred and played out in the past. We own it kid, even when we are not all that proud of it. 

 

 

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On 6/8/2018 at 3:11 AM, Shootist Jeff said:

There's a simple fix to this..... don't illegally cross the US border with your children.  

There's a simple fix to that. Don't make it illegal to cross the border with your children. Which do you think will cost less?

 North America had no border rules when a great number of people decided this should be their new home. The people already here were fairly accommodating, until the new neighbors started making rules and killing the natives. Now the people already here are keeping out new neighbors, because they made rules that no one gave them the right to make, except for some of their own people.

This is the epitome of taxation w/o representation. You make laws that affect/effect other people who have no redress...

 It is immoral, and in my humble opinion, illegal.

 Might don't make right.

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Exclusive: Trump looking to erect tent cities to house unaccompanied children

Quote

The Department of Health and Human Services will visit Fort Bliss, a sprawling Army base near El Paso in the coming weeks to look at a parcel of land where the administration is considering building a tent city to hold between 1,000 and 5,000 children, according to U.S. officials and other sources familiar with the plans.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/white-house/article213026379.html

 

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lord-flies.thumb.jpg.1422d09ca53ae14f4a35579ccf7a8665.jpg

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On 6/9/2018 at 8:41 PM, Steam Flyer said:

If employers of illegal immigrants had an easy & inexpensive way to get them into the system, and sure prosecution with punishment if they don't comply, would be a better stick than building and filling concentration camps.

 

I've long been a vocal proponent of enforcing the law and hammering employers for knowingly hiring illegals.  E-verify is available right now.  Violate and that they should get perp walked on Fox news to make a point.  Illegal immigration would end almost overnight if that happened.  But both sides of the duopoly are too chickenshit to do it.  

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On 6/9/2018 at 8:16 PM, Sol Rosenberg said:

Asking for asylum is not illegal. 

There are rules for that too.

 

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Trump mural on wall of children's concentration camp. ICE is some sick Nazi fucks.

 

image.jpeg

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On 5/29/2018 at 6:12 AM, Mickey Rat said:

Are you kidding? Sending them home with their parents is deterrent enough. No need to kidnap them and besides WTF do you think you are going to do with them after the kidnapping, if unclaimed, put them up for adaption and give them citizenship? Un-fucking-believable.  

I have no idea what the republicans are going to do with them. Send them to church-run orphanages so they can be indoctrinated and become good little Republicans?

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On 6/9/2018 at 5:49 PM, Mrleft8 said:

You make laws that affect/effect other people who have no redress.

Laws can't effect other people. Only fucking or in-vitro fertilization can do that.

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4 hours ago, RKoch said:

Trump mural on wall of children's concentration camp. ICE is some sick Nazi fucks.

 

image.jpeg

We all know that law enforcement sometimes attracts people with overly-authoritarian tendencies. This is more than a little scary though. What kind of Trumpista fascist whack-job thought that -this- mural was a good idea?

I wonder if President Trump can grow a mustache?

-DSK

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6 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

We all know that law enforcement sometimes attracts people with overly-authoritarian tendencies. This is more than a little scary though. What kind of Trumpista fascist whack-job thought that -this- mural was a good idea?

I wonder if President Trump can grow a mustache?

-DSK

Not with Agent Orange on his face.

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Not saying the policy is wrong or right - but the 8 years that Obama (2 of which they controlled the house and the senate also) was in office they didn't do a damn thing about the same policy that was happening on their watch.  But now they are appalled and up in arms.  Give me a break you fucking hypocrites. 

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2 hours ago, Gone Drinking said:

Not saying the policy is wrong or right - but the 8 years that Obama (2 of which they controlled the house and the senate also) was in office they didn't do a damn thing about the same policy that was happening on their watch.  But now they are appalled and up in arms.  Give me a break you fucking hypocrites. 

I love your imagination. The few rabid lefties that were here who would do that, are long gone. I think Gaytor was run over in a hit-n-run by a Honda Ridgeline myself, driven by a Clown. Who huffed “eh,eh,eh” while putting away.

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Holy Jesus Christ on the Staten Island ferry.

"Sessions cites the Bible in defense of separating immigrant families"

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-sessions-bible-separating-immigrant-families-20180614-story.html

 

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7 minutes ago, jerseyguy said:

Holy Jesus Christ on the Staten Island ferry.

"Sessions cites the Bible in defense of separating immigrant families"

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-sessions-bible-separating-immigrant-families-20180614-story.html

 

They're all nutz,

Sarah Sanders Says Ripping Children From Their Mothers at the Border is the Law: It's Not

Source: mediaite.com



by Amy Russo | 4:51 pm, June 14th, 2018 


White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders used Thursday’s media briefing to repeat the administration’s claim that splitting up families at the U.S.-Mexico border was warranted “because it’s the law.” 

The only problem with that answer is that it is patently false. 

The response, given to CNN’s Jim Acosta who demanded to know why the government was taking such actions, was used by President Donald Trump in a tweet last month in which he claimed there is a “horrible law that separates children from there [sic] parents” at the border. 

However, there is no law ordering the division of migrant families, according to PolitiFact. The rule to which Sanders appears to have been referring is the administration’s zero-tolerance policy on illegal immigration, calling for authorities to prosecute those who do not cross the border legally.............

Read more: https://www.mediaite.com/tv/sarah-sanders-says-ripping-children-from-their-mothers-at-the-border-is-the-law-its-not/ 

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 Can you hear the jackboots coming? 

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7 hours ago, Gone Drinking said:

Not saying the policy is wrong or right - but the 8 years that Obama (2 of which they controlled the house and the senate also) was in office they didn't do a damn thing about the same policy that was happening on their watch.  But now they are appalled and up in arms.  Give me a break you fucking hypocrites. 

Let's settle something right now. Obama had a super-majority for a very short period of time, the idea that he had one for two years is irresponsible. When Obama was elected he had 58 Senators, he should have had 59, but Al Franken's election was contested and he was not seated until July. Arlen Specter switched parties in April, but Robert Byrd was hospitalized in May. Al Franken pops up in July, but in August Kennedy died, and that slot was filled in September by Paul Kirk.

No automatic alt text available.

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6 minutes ago, Gutterblack said:

 Can you hear the jackboots coming? 

One Conservative in Ohio can and he's voting Democratic in November.

Longtime Ohio conservative commentator: 'In 2018 I will vote for Democrats'

BY JUSTIN WISE - 06/14/18 02:08 PM EDT 
 
A longtime conservative commentator and former Republican politician says he's voting for Democrats in this year's midterm elections. 

Phil Heimlich, the host of conservative talk show "Hard Truths with Phil Heimlich" who served on the Cincinnati City Council from 1993 to 2001 and the Hamilton County Commission from 2003 to 2006, wrote in The Cincinnati Enquirer on Thursday that, despite being a Republican for decades, he's casting his vote for Democrats in November. 

"I’m scared — scared of losing our rights to free speech, fair elections and the rule of law," Heimlich writes. "You see, we’re witnessing a dangerous trend in which dictators come to power in once-promising democracies and crush dissent." 

Heimlich says President Trump lacks respect for democratic values, and pointed out how Trump admires people like Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan and Russian President Vladimir Putin, two leaders who have cracked down on independent media in their respective countries.


http://thehill.com/homenews/392308-longtime-ohio-conservative-commentator-im-voting-democratic-now

 

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24 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

Let's settle something right now. Obama had a super-majority for a very short period of time, the idea that he had one for two years is irresponsible. When Obama was elected he had 58 Senators, he should have had 59, but Al Franken's election was contested and he was not seated until July. Arlen Specter switched parties in April, but Robert Byrd was hospitalized in May. Al Franken pops up in July, but in August Kennedy died, and that slot was filled in September by Paul Kirk.

No automatic alt text available.

Ovama's supermajority lasted for 72 days, far short of two years.

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12 minutes ago, jerseyguy said:

Ovama's supermajority lasted for 72 days, far short of two years.

Yep, and no matter how many times I correct someone they will be back for remedial education in no time flat.

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10 hours ago, jerseyguy said:
10 hours ago, badlatitude said:

Let's settle something right now. Obama had a super-majority for a very short period of time, the idea that he had one for two years is irresponsible. When Obama was elected he had 58 Senators, he should have had 59, but Al Franken's election was contested and he was not seated until July. Arlen Specter switched parties in April, but Robert Byrd was hospitalized in May. Al Franken pops up in July, but in August Kennedy died, and that slot was filled in September by Paul Kirk.

...     ...     ...     ...

Ovama's supermajority lasted for 72 days, far short of two years.

Yeah but it's one of THE-RIGHT's favorite lies and it's got a larger basis in truth than many of their bullshit hate-spew slogans.

-DSK

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I thought basing government policy on religion was a no-no in the USA. What happened to the separation of church and state?

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So, to summarize this thread:

America = "I came as an immigrant, but I want the door closed behind me"

Not "America, Fuck Yea', but "America, Fuck YOU"

Under the guise of 'deterrent' we are ripping families apart.   What part of IMMORAL don't y'all get? 

 

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8 hours ago, Kirwan said:

So, to summarize this thread:

America = "I came as an immigrant, but I want the door closed behind me"

Not "America, Fuck Yea', but "America, Fuck YOU"

Under the guise of 'deterrent' we are ripping families apart.   What part of IMMORAL don't y'all get? 

 

I didn't come here as an immigrant, nor did my parents or their parents.  And every sovereign nation has the right to choose who and how many people come to its shores.  There was a point in our distant past when waves of immigration made sense.  Those days are past.  So your weepy words on a corroded copper statue are sweet, but they are history, not an operations manual.  

And this whole "Open borders" stuff is BULLSHIT!  If we had open borders and every swinging immigrant and refugee could come here - we would have 2/3 of shithole central and South America and 1/2 of the population from the shithole countries in Africa camping on our front porches and then we would be just as much of a shithole as what they left.  Until YOU personally are willing to let 14 Honduran "refugees" live in your house, then you can STFU.  

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3 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I didn't come here as an immigrant, nor did my parents or their parents.  And every sovereign nation has the right to choose who and how many people come to its shores.  There was a point in our distant past when waves of immigration made sense.  Those days are past.  So your weepy words on a corroded copper statue are sweet, but they are history, not an operations manual.  

And this whole "Open borders" stuff is BULLSHIT!  If we had open borders and every swinging immigrant and refugee could come here - we would have 2/3 of shithole central and South America and 1/2 of the population from the shithole countries in Africa camping on our front porches and then we would be just as much of a shithole as what they left.  Until YOU personally are willing to let 14 Honduran "refugees" live in your house, then you can STFU.  

Well, I guess we know where you stand on the issue.

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Yeah!  Fuck the kids!  It's their fault their mom asked for asylum.

It builds character to be taken away from your parents at an early age.  

It's in the bible here somewhere.....

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