AFTERGLOW

BLock Island Race- How to kill it..

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10 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

Thanks, I’ll check out what course is available near me. I have enough free time to spend a day to make a 5 year investment!

No worries.  Many venues - especially abroad - do require the ISAF level course, which is a 2 day affair

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1 minute ago, Christian said:

Sorry mate - you are right.  The race use the YRALIS safety recommendations that are not aligned with with the ORC requirements, but somewhat with the cock-up safety regulations made up by a group of US Sailing activists in an attempt to encourage participation in southern californication.  Kinda really fucked up.

nobody reads any of them anyway.  especially Captain Afterglow  it seems. 

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2 hours ago, Christian said:

Sorry mate - you are right.  The race use the YRALIS safety recommendations that are not aligned with with the ORC requirements, but somewhat with the cock-up safety regulations made up by a group of US Sailing activists in an attempt to encourage participation in southern californication.  Kinda really fucked up.

Christian, the reason the YRALIS safety regs still exist is that a little less than 25 years ago, right after Larry Klein drowned in San Francisco Bay during Big Boat Series, US Sailing added a prescription to the ORC regs to require the use of life jackets in all races conducted under certain ORC classifications. For some years before that, the YRA had recommended that member clubs use the ORC safety regs, to make local requirements consistent with what competitors would find elsewhere, but the addition of that prescription caused a furor. The YRALIS Handicap Committee wanted to provide an alternative set of safety regs that member clubs could use so as to avoid requiring racers on Long Island Sound on a hot summer day to be wearing a life jacket (as the prescription to the ORC regs would have done in some circumstances). So, the older YRALIS safety regs (which predated the ORC) were dusted off and rewritten to make them able to serve in place of the ORC regs.

It wasn't "US Sailing activists" that rewrote the separate regs and made them available, because US Sailing preferred that the YRA adopt its prescription. It was a contingent of members of the YRALIS Handicap Committee who were very experienced, and felt (like several experienced participants in this thread) that US Sailing was getting too much involved in making safety decisions and requirements for local fleets - what made sense in summer on San Francisco Bay was less sensible on Long Island Sound, where the water is much warmer and the weather is far less boisterous.

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You ask: Why not take reasonably available, reasonably priced steps to increase your likelihood of a successful experience?

There are two answers:

  1. Until there is a statistically significant determination that these "reasonably" available and priced steps actually increase the likelihood of a "successful experience" there is no reason to bother
  2. It presumes that those things that are a successful experience for you are the same as a successful experience for everyone

Unless and until those to conditions can be met, the most likely outcome is that you're simply wasting everyone's time and money.

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You say: Your statistics are misleading.

No, the statistics are not misleading. They're an objective summary that is directly relevant to the statement made, that golf is more dangerous than sailing.

Perhaps you're unable to look at data and reach obvious conclusions.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Moonduster said:

You ask: Why not take reasonably available, reasonably priced steps to increase your likelihood of a successful experience?

There are two answers:

  1. Until there is a statistically significant determination that these "reasonably" available and priced steps actually increase the likelihood of a "successful experience" there is no reason to bother
  2. It presumes that those things that are a successful experience for you are the same as a successful experience for everyone

Unless and until those to conditions can be met, the most likely outcome is that you're simply wasting everyone's time and money.

 I am wasting nobody's time and money.  I have simply asked a question, and commented that on my boat, my crews are given whatever benefit a safety at sea course may give. I like safe people on safe boats.  I think we all have more fun that way. We race sober, too! The humanity!

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6 hours ago, Moonduster said:

 

  1. Until there is a statistically significant determination that these "reasonably" available and priced steps actually increase the likelihood of a "successful experience" there is no reason to bother

 as a rhetorical point...

that argument doesn't really hold - what if nobody bothers to do your study?

just because something hasn't been proved to be worthwhile doesn't mean it isn't...

 

 

 

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OP - Clearly you’re fault for not reading all the requirements. Good on you for acknowledging that.

A few points though.

Anyone want to take a stab at why the R2AK is popular? 3 rules.

its a 186 mile “bay” race in 2018, not the ‘68 Sunday Times Race.

it is always the skipper and crews responsibility to determine their needs and comfort level. Put it in the NOR that’s it’s strongly suggested to take the course but mandating I disagree with.

it seems to me that by creating all of these guidelines and rules, that the OA is actually opening themselves to liability if something did actually go wrong. Call it, “creation of a false sense of safety”. Kind of how a platform isn’t responsible for what’s said on it, but a publisher is responsible since they took control of what’s allowed.

All of the guidelines in the world didn’t save John Fisher. We should all have sympathy for situations like that, but if we make new rules based on statistical anomalies every time something happens, then we’re delusional and we’re going to flush out participants.

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32 minutes ago, OutofOffice said:

it seems to me that by creating all of these guidelines and rules, that the OA is actually opening themselves to liability if something did actually go wrong. Call it, “creation of a false sense of safety”. Kind of how a platform isn’t responsible for what’s said on it, but a publisher is responsible since they took control of what’s allowed.

This is very true.  Make the rule and don't enforce it and you're worse off than you'd have been if you hadn't had a rule.

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Lawyers. 

The sport is riddled with em. For better or in many cases for worse, those that have never been in trouble or danger, telling other people what is dangerous or troubling (or lawsuit potential) is a huge thing in this sport. John whiteboy Doe from richport conn knows better than you, and you should listen or else. 

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So, does anyone have info on the boat that hit the green  Gong?

  

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3 hours ago, bodega87 said:

Lawyers. 

The sport is riddled with em. For better or in many cases for worse, those that have never been in trouble or danger, telling other people what is dangerous or troubling (or lawsuit potential) is a huge thing in this sport. John whiteboy Doe from richport conn knows better than you, and you should listen or else. 

Why wouldn't you want to know what might expose you to liability?  Don't you prefer to keep your hard earned assets for yourself and your family?  I know that I do. 

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3 hours ago, jesposito said:

So, does anyone have info on the boat that hit the green  Gong?

mabey they werre plyeng musice and gotte disteractted?

 

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37 minutes ago, sshow bob said:

Why wouldn't you want to know what might expose you to liability?  Don't you prefer to keep your hard earned assets for yourself and your family?  I know that I do. 

 

4 hours ago, sshow bob said:

Make the rule and don't enforce it and you're worse off than you'd have been if you hadn't had a rule.

 

When lawyers can't even agree with themselves, what do the rest of us do?

 

Before suing people became the US' predominant past time, life was better. When I was a child, a big lawsuit was national news. Today they're so common the news outlets don't even report them; it's the norm.

So maybe your family and assets are benefitting from said changes, but as whole we're all paying out the ass for it in nearly all aspects of life. 

So, thanks? 

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20 minutes ago, bodega87 said:

Before suing people became the US' predominant past time, life was better.

That’s also back when we expected self-responsibility and did not try or expect others (I.e. OA of an event) to try and babysit us. You go out, you reap the results. But if the OA is going to act like everyone’s parent, then yeah, they have some level of responsibility since they took it away from the competitor. You don’t get to say, as the OA, you know best, then when shit goes haywire, throw up your hands and say “why are you looking at me, you should have known better”.

 

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15 hours ago, Katydid said:

Christian, the reason the YRALIS safety regs still exist is that a little less than 25 years ago, right after Larry Klein drowned in San Francisco Bay during Big Boat Series, US Sailing added a prescription to the ORC regs to require the use of life jackets in all races conducted under certain ORC classifications. For some years before that, the YRA had recommended that member clubs use the ORC safety regs, to make local requirements consistent with what competitors would find elsewhere, but the addition of that prescription caused a furor. The YRALIS Handicap Committee wanted to provide an alternative set of safety regs that member clubs could use so as to avoid requiring racers on Long Island Sound on a hot summer day to be wearing a life jacket (as the prescription to the ORC regs would have done in some circumstances). So, the older YRALIS safety regs (which predated the ORC) were dusted off and rewritten to make them able to serve in place of the ORC regs.

It wasn't "US Sailing activists" that rewrote the separate regs and made them available, because US Sailing preferred that the YRA adopt its prescription. It was a contingent of members of the YRALIS Handicap Committee who were very experienced, and felt (like several experienced participants in this thread) that US Sailing was getting too much involved in making safety decisions and requirements for local fleets - what made sense in summer on San Francisco Bay was less sensible on Long Island Sound, where the water is much warmer and the weather is far less boisterous.

I think it would be a hell of as lot better to use the ORC/ISAF req's with some local mods (that may be pertinent) than to brew your own.  It is a hell of a lot easier for visiting boats to have a more universal set of requirements.  In addition it also ensures a better alignment to changes made based on newer experience rather than maybe not following more modern thinking.

 

The "USS activists" I was talking about is the group that got USS snowed into adopting a USS specific set of (poorly written) safety reqs as opposed to using the ORC/ISAF system

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1 hour ago, bodega87 said:

When lawyers can't even agree with themselves, what do the rest of us do?

<Here I deleted a long post, took a deep breath, and turned up the music.>

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11 hours ago, Christian said:

I think it would be a hell of as lot better to use the ORC/ISAF req's with some local mods (that may be pertinent) than to brew your own.  It is a hell of a lot easier for visiting boats to have a more universal set of requirements.  In addition it also ensures a better alignment to changes made based on newer experience rather than maybe not following more modern thinking.

 

The "USS activists" I was talking about is the group that got USS snowed into adopting a USS specific set of (poorly written) safety reqs as opposed to using the ORC/ISAF system

My point was that the group that adopted those safety regs had nothing to do with US Sailing and actively opposed US Sailing's wishes (US Sailing wanted clubs to use the ORC/ISAF system, with their prescription included), so the YRALIS regs were not "USS specific", and your assignment of responsibility is simply wrong.

As to your opinion about which solution would be better, the YRALIS didn't have the benefit of your opinion 23 years ago, but it did have the benefit of opinions like yours. Obviously, they didn't prevail, and the rewritten YRALIS regs (whose originals had been among the reference documents for the initial ORC regs, BTW) were adopted instead. I'm not going to bother defending a decision that's older than many people on the racecourse today, I'm just trying to tell you what happened. I'll leave it to your imagination why the YRALIS might have decided that using ORC regs in the USA and removing some requirements was not the best solution, and of course, you're welcome to make of the decision what you will. I'm pretty confident the surviving folks on the Handicap Committee will weather your judgement with their self-esteem intact.

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I dont know what is worse that some guy is too stupid to read the NOR  and isn't utterly ashamed of himself, or the fact that this stupidity instead leads to the generation of 118 posts of ballyhoo instead of the proper response.

 

Mr AfterGlow: As you must be new to sailboat racing, please take a moment to understand that reading of the Race Documents and associated rules (and compliance thereof) is a required facet of race preparations.  In future you are expected to do so, and should you decided not to either due to stupidly or laziness please know that you will be seen as, at best a neophyte.

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Oh please - I would bet that more than 50% of people racing don't read the NOR or the SIs.  It is blatantly evident on the water if you have ever done race committee work.

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42 minutes ago, Gone Drinking said:

Oh please - I would bet that more than 50% of people racing don't read the NOR or the SIs.  It is blatantly evident on the water if you have ever done race committee work.

So true... who here hasn't scored a result simply through following the rules when others didn't? 

Cheers, 

              W.

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7 hours ago, Katydid said:

My point was that the group that adopted those safety regs had nothing to do with US Sailing and actively opposed US Sailing's wishes (US Sailing wanted clubs to use the ORC/ISAF system, with their prescription included), so the YRALIS regs were not "USS specific", and your assignment of responsibility is simply wrong.

As to your opinion about which solution would be better, the YRALIS didn't have the benefit of your opinion 23 years ago, but it did have the benefit of opinions like yours. Obviously, they didn't prevail, and the rewritten YRALIS regs (whose originals had been among the reference documents for the initial ORC regs, BTW) were adopted instead. I'm not going to bother defending a decision that's older than many people on the racecourse today, I'm just trying to tell you what happened. I'll leave it to your imagination why the YRALIS might have decided that using ORC regs in the USA and removing some requirements was not the best solution, and of course, you're welcome to make of the decision what you will. I'm pretty confident the surviving folks on the Handicap Committee will weather your judgement with their self-esteem intact.

You are confusing yourself.

 

And just because a decision was made 23 years ago doesn't mean that it is the best solution today.

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1 hour ago, Christian said:

You are confusing yourself.

 

And just because a decision was made 23 years ago doesn't mean that it is the best solution today.

if it aint not broke why fix it?

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4 hours ago, Gone Drinking said:

Oh please - I would bet that more than 50% of people racing don't read the NOR or the SIs.  It is blatantly evident on the water if you have ever done race committee work.

I was always told that if you want to keep a secret from a sailor, put it in the SI's.

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3 hours ago, Christian said:

You are confusing yourself.

I don't think so, but suppose you straighten me out.

And just because a decision was made 23 years ago doesn't mean that it is the best solution today.

I don't recall saying it was.

 

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We should be legislating to prevent real and likely threats that actually happen and endanger our sport and sailors. 
At least two boats hit objects and had to withdraw.
Luckily no injuries.  I propose mandating side scan and forward looking sonar and training certificates for everyone on board.
Oh, and everyone on the crew list excel spread sheet sitting at home just to be on the safe side  

 

  

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10 hours ago, Gone Drinking said:

Oh please - I would bet that more than 50% of people racing don't read the NOR or the SIs.  It is blatantly evident on the water if you have ever done race committee work.

I sorta disagree.

Everybody reads at least some part of the NOR & SIs to see the class breaks & starts and most if not all boats bring a copy with them, just in case.

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4 hours ago, TonyFromSheepsheadBay said:

We should be legislating to prevent real and likely threats that actually happen and endanger our sport and sailors. 

 I propose mandating side scan and forward looking sonar and training certificates for everyone on board.

Youre a hottheade....           :)

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2 hours ago, Parma said:

I sorta disagree.

Everybody reads at least some part of the NOR & SIs to see the class breaks & starts and most if not all boats bring a copy with them, just in case.

Class breaks are not in the SIs. They are on the scratch sheet which is its own entity.  Bringing a copy of the SIs is not the same as reading them.   

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7 hours ago, Katydid said:

 

No thanks - you seem to be of the dense persuasion - stay in your closet

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9 hours ago, Snaggletooth said:

what dose red fontte meane againe?

Just a way to visually separate a reply from the question or statement replied to. No other meaning.

cane nevere remebber....

Happy to help! B)

 

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1 hour ago, Christian said:

No thanks - you seem to be of the dense persuasion - stay in your closet

Well, that's certainly an adult answer. I am duly chastised. <Yawn> :rolleyes:

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10 hours ago, Gone Drinking said:

Class breaks are not in the SIs. They are on the scratch sheet which is its own entity.  Bringing a copy of the SIs is not the same as reading them.   

Like This?

Maybe not all the time, and custom might vary according to region but quite often & in my experience.

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So now the pissing match is almost over, where are we?  You can quote rules at each other and nit pick that it's not the latest version, but where are we going?

Someone said "this is the end of amateur racing'' and maybe that is worth pondering.  If race committees fear the law suit then we are toast.  What if we can develop a binding, all encompassing legal document that MUST be signed by all competitors to curtail any future legal action?  Would this shift the burden back to the skipper, where it really should ultimately be?

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7 minutes ago, 2savage said:

So now the pissing match is almost over, where are we? 

Notte so overe, SA on Satturday nite ist licke teh onley bar in Adirondackes withs poole tabelle.  Evreybodey, plusse sum, showes up.                                     :)

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I went to safety at sea with 4 other people on the boat 4 years ago 

To be honest it was quantity over quality as you did so many things in one day at best you gained and awareness of needing to learn more and gained no actual skill

The most informative thing was the CG rescue pilot stressing the importance of having a working handheld as while they can get close without the handheld that last little bit of info they need to help you comes from the VHF 

The most surprising thing was that so MANY Sailors lacked the fitness to get into a life raft in a calm swimming pool never mind what would happen if you got in trouble in bad weather 

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8 hours ago, 2savage said:

So now the pissing match is almost over, where are we?  You can quote rules at each other and nit pick that it's not the latest version, but where are we going?

Someone said "this is the end of amateur racing'' and maybe that is worth pondering.  If race committees fear the law suit then we are toast.  What if we can develop a binding, all encompassing legal document that MUST be signed by all competitors to curtail any future legal action?  Would this shift the burden back to the skipper, where it really should ultimately be?

 

That right there makes a helluva a lot of sense!  Everyone has insurance, and if they don't, they shouldn't be racing.  But, how does US Sailing, or some other entity put that forward, to be dabated, and approved by all, once fine tuned???

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On 5/30/2018 at 10:41 AM, Sail4beer said:

Plus, would one course cover me for BIRW, Newport to Bermuda or Marion to Bermuda?

Yes. Next question.

On 5/30/2018 at 11:33 AM, TJSoCal said:

But you can legislate/rulemake away the OA's liability. Honestly, I think that's the point of all these rules.

No amount of rule-making or safety course requiring will eliminate an OA's potential liability (posts #73 and #109 are correct).

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15 minutes ago, Svanen said:

No amount of rule-making or safety course requiring will eliminate an OA's potential liability (posts #73 and #109 are correct).

I might just include this thread in my next malpractice renewal package!

Seriously - there nothing you can do to avoid the risk of being sued, perhaps successfully.  There are lots of things you can do to make yourself a more attractive target, however, increasing both the likelihood of a suit, and the likelihood that a suit will be successful.  Get good insurance.  Understand your obligations under the policy to ensure coverage.  Do those things.  

I am always bemused by people who think the lawyers are the problem.  My favorite quote about the law:

“Law reflects but in no sense determines the moral worth of a society. The values of a reasonably just society will reflect themselves in a reasonably just law. The better the society, the less law there will be. In heaven there will be no law, and the lion shall lie down with the lamb. The values of an unjust society will reflect themselves in an unjust law. The worse the society, the more law there will be. In hell there will be nothing but law, and due process will be meticulously observed.”

Grant Gilmore.

If everyone acted right, I'd be out of business, and have to spend my non-sailing time making maple sugar and growing hops and barley.

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8 minutes ago, sshow bob said:

Seriously - there nothing you can do to avoid the risk of being sued, perhaps successfully.  There are lots of things you can do to make yourself a more attractive target, however, increasing both the likelihood of a suit, and the likelihood that a suit will be successful.  Get good insurance.  Understand your obligations under the policy to ensure coverage.  Do those things. 

Passieve; burne sage or mahachu rootte

Actieve; practisse voodoo

:)

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So how did all this start on LIS 

Robert Melrose founder of Lloyd Harbor Yacht Club  (Red J24 running his pet project junior sailing program in Orient ) was my first sailing mentor as I lived out that way then it was a fun program with a great person 

But as Bob tells it LHYC started a race on a day that had some challenging conditions and somebody got them selfs into a pretty big mess that ended badly and while someone with a better memory then me might know more details to the best of my knowledge this was the first big lawsuit in this area against a club for starting a race in difficult conditions 

It did not really slow Bob down but he was definitely a lot more conservative after that 

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28 minutes ago, tommays said:

So how did all this start on LIS 

Robert Melrose founder of Lloyd Harbor Yacht Club  (Red J24 running his pet project junior sailing program in Orient ) was my first sailing mentor as I lived out that way then it was a fun program with a great person 

But as Bob tells it LHYC started a race on a day that had some challenging conditions and somebody got them selfs into a pretty big mess that ended badly and while someone with a better memory then me might know more details to the best of my knowledge this was the first big lawsuit in this area against a club for starting a race in difficult conditions 

It did not really slow Bob down but he was definitely a lot more conservative after that 

 

Are you asking how we get more Jr sailors racing offshore and getting them more offshore and safety experience earlier?

 

 

 

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I am telling you how LIS race committees started getting hit with lawsuits in the late 70s which is why there is contuines to be more and more safety requirements for inshore races 

while throwing in a little history about the people who made racing way more accessible to the average person 

The Juniors is just what one person with motivation can make happen unfortunately 30 years went by before some good things have started again 

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On 6/4/2018 at 1:04 AM, sshow bob said:

I might just include this thread in my next malpractice renewal package!

Seriously - there nothing you can do to avoid the risk of being sued, perhaps successfully.  There are lots of things you can do to make yourself a more attractive target, however, increasing both the likelihood of a suit, and the likelihood that a suit will be successful.  Get good insurance.  Understand your obligations under the policy to ensure coverage.  Do those things.  

I am always bemused by people who think the lawyers are the problem.  My favorite quote about the law:

“Law reflects but in no sense determines the moral worth of a society. The values of a reasonably just society will reflect themselves in a reasonably just law. The better the society, the less law there will be. In heaven there will be no law, and the lion shall lie down with the lamb. The values of an unjust society will reflect themselves in an unjust law. The worse the society, the more law there will be. In hell there will be nothing but law, and due process will be meticulously observed.”

Grant Gilmore.

If everyone acted right, I'd be out of business, and have to spend my non-sailing time making maple sugar and growing hops and barley.

Your quotation  is based on the premise that a  law Is passed via a duly vetted, democratic process including a vote by legislative representatives of the very society the law will govern. It's not relevant here. In other  words,  the  opinion of the society seems not to be reflected in the law. 

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22 minutes ago, TonyFromSheepsheadBay said:

Your quotation  is based on the premise that a  law Is passed via a duly vetted, democratic process including a vote by legislative representatives of the very society the law will govern. It's not relevant here. In other  words,  the  opinion of the society seems not to be reflected in the law. 

Law seems to follow the principles (laws)  of Thermodynamics: stated somewhat classically as: 

0: There is a game

1. You can’t win

2. You can’t even break even

3. You can’t get out of the game

 

Over time, all energy decays to entropy... where the concept of entropy is replaced by lawyers and court fees. 

 

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1 hour ago, TonyFromSheepsheadBay said:

Your quotation  is based on the premise that a  law Is passed via a duly vetted, democratic process including a vote by legislative representatives of the very society the law will govern. It's not relevant here. In other  words,  the  opinion of the society seems not to be reflected in the law. 

No.  My quote is based on Gilmore's acknowledgment that law is inherently problematic, and unfortunate. This is a perspective I share, my profession notwithstanding.   In this context the quote recognizes that the "law" in question is foisted on the many as the unfortunate result of the bad acts of a few.

 

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On ‎5‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 7:42 PM, Snaggletooth said:

Toney,

Qitte thet shitte, notte realey helpeng in anney way.  Thack you.

S.

Troublemaker, stirs shitpot, then refuses to roll up his sleeves and get it sorted. Not quite the man she thinks she is.

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As for this thread, big fuking deal and even a bigger yawn. Seriously, do you people not have anything better to do than complain about STC setting a bar of and for qualifications? 

I can tell you I have been sailing six decades now. Done a lap and then some. While I haven't done SAS in a decade now, I can safely say each time I took one, I learned something new.... every time, without fail. 

The mentality that, "It isn't even at sea", can't think of a more dangerous attitude to have. The bloviation that " no SAS course is going to tech you how to find a hole in LSS or how to get all halyards forward", what farcial nonsense. Heck maybe if your seamanship skills were a little bit better you would have had the good sense to check that headstay and catch the fatigue before it became an issue.... or crap even checked your groundtackle so your boat didn't spend a decade on the hard because she came to rest under a low bridge. Yep, the seamanship skills on proud display and a mouth that writes checks your arse can't cash.

Y'all need to harden the fuk up, put your big swingin' dick egos aside and realize the sea is an unforgiving teacher. It is rare when an organization comes along and offers invaluable resources to have sailors help sailors improve their skillset that may one day save a life of your mates or even your own. If you people are indicative of "our sport", then don't let the door hit your transom on the way to the golf course.

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On 6/3/2018 at 8:31 PM, tommays said:

I am telling you how LIS race committees started getting hit with lawsuits in the late 70s which is why there is contuines to be more and more safety requirements for inshore races 

while throwing in a little history about the people who made racing way more accessible to the average person 

The Juniors is just what one person with motivation can make happen unfortunately 30 years went by before some good things have started again 

That is what i thought, I was just checking.

Back to the topic  of safety regs in general - I sailed this race with a mostly junior team, all had SAS within the last year, all wore inflatables and harness at night, many drove the boat in over 20kts of wind, all sat on the rail all night around the island and back to the sound. Personally i found it really educational to take a race on the schedule and provide an opportunity to kids to do longer races on bigger boats like others did for me with the chance to sail on some of the top 40-foot-plus racing boats in the great lakes at 16. Sure they have a lot to learn to sail more consistently in those windy conditions, at night and for multiple days, but it has to start somewhere and in a environment that sets a safety baseline for them to start from for distance/ocean racing.

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35 minutes ago, BillDBastard said:

Y'all need to harden the fuk up, put your big swingin' dick egos aside...If you people are indicative of "our sport", then don't let the door hit your transom on the way to the golf course.

Speaking of dick swingin’ egos...way to have a discussion Dbag.

God forbid we discuss our sport and the shit that leads to its decline. You must be a blast to race with...

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Yo Bill,

The conversation isn't about whether one can learn something from a SAS seminar. It's about whether the SAS seminar has a material effect on the outcome of those participating in a given regatta.

So far, the predominant effect appears to be a reduction in participation, which is surely not the intended outcome.

 

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13 hours ago, DHFiend said:

That is what i thought, I was just checking.

Back to the topic  of safety regs in general - I sailed this race with a mostly junior team, all had SAS within the last year, all wore inflatables and harness at night, many drove the boat in over 20kts of wind, all sat on the rail all night around the island and back to the sound. Personally i found it really educational to take a race on the schedule and provide an opportunity to kids to do longer races on bigger boats like others did for me with the chance to sail on some of the top 40-foot-plus racing boats in the great lakes at 16. Sure they have a lot to learn to sail more consistently in those windy conditions, at night and for multiple days, but it has to start somewhere and in a environment that sets a safety baseline for them to start from for distance/ocean racing.

Sounds like you are well place to comment on the boat that ran into a bell buoy in the middle of a fairway....

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13 hours ago, DHFiend said:

That is what i thought, I was just checking.

Back to the topic  of safety regs in general - I sailed this race with a mostly junior team, all had SAS within the last year, all wore inflatables and harness at night, many drove the boat in over 20kts of wind, all sat on the rail all night around the island and back to the sound. Personally i found it really educational to take a race on the schedule and provide an opportunity to kids to do longer races on bigger boats like others did for me with the chance to sail on some of the top 40-foot-plus racing boats in the great lakes at 16. Sure they have a lot to learn to sail more consistently in those windy conditions, at night and for multiple days, but it has to start somewhere and in a environment that sets a safety baseline for them to start from for distance/ocean racing.

 

Good for you!!  It's great to see guys working to teach the racers of the future!  I was fortunate at age 16 to do the Halifax race on a C&C 35, Arrow.  The owner, Bruce Lockwood RIP, was always bringing on young folks and teaching them the ropes, and I raced with him for a couple of seasons, before moving on and up to bigger boats.  Bruce was well known, respected, and liked by all, on Long Island Sound and beyond, and we need more sailors like you, and Bruce in our world!

 

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Lots of posts here are missing the point. Safety courses may be a good idea, but it doesn't change the fact that the gradual escalation of safety requirements for sailboat racing, particularly for open water events, is killing the sport. I have stopped competing in open water events because I am not going to spend hundreds (or thousands) of dollars for fancy kit (e,g, all handhelds must be gps-dsc) to meet the requirements of paranoid race organizers.

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1 hour ago, Guvacine said:

Lots of posts here are missing the point. Safety courses may be a good idea, but it doesn't change the fact that the gradual escalation of safety requirements for sailboat racing, particularly for open water events, is killing the sport. I have stopped competing in open water events because I am not going to spend hundreds (or thousands) of dollars for fancy kit (e,g, all handhelds must be gps-dsc) to meet the requirements of paranoid race organizers.

I think you are the one missing the plot.  You are probably better off taking up golf

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On 6/3/2018 at 7:02 PM, tommays said:

So how did all this start on LIS 

Robert Melrose founder of Lloyd Harbor Yacht Club  (Red J24 running his pet project junior sailing program in Orient ) was my first sailing mentor as I lived out that way then it was a fun program with a great person 

But as Bob tells it LHYC started a race on a day that had some challenging conditions and somebody got them selfs into a pretty big mess that ended badly and while someone with a better memory then me might know more details to the best of my knowledge this was the first big lawsuit in this area against a club for starting a race in difficult conditions 

It did not really slow Bob down but he was definitely a lot more conservative after that 

0E169E4E-A9AB-449E-82E3-065E597F1DCA.jpeg

If we want to get more kids involved to grow the sport, why do the Distance races count those under 14 as adults?  Does this fall under the safety discussion?   

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3 hours ago, billy backstay said:

 

Good for you!!  It's great to see guys working to teach the racers of the future!  I was fortunate at age 16 to do the Halifax race on a C&C 35, Arrow.  The owner, Bruce Lockwood RIP, was always bringing on young folks and teaching them the ropes, and I raced with him for a couple of seasons, before moving on and up to bigger boats.  Bruce was well known, respected, and liked by all, on Long Island Sound and beyond, and we need more sailors like you, and Bruce in our world!

 

Bruce was the best.

A class act all around.

Enjoyed racing against him and his step sons on Tomahawk 

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I'm still looking for info on the swan 45 that hit the Gong, whoops I did find out what boat it was.

How the new owner taking it?  

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6 hours ago, Car Ramrod said:

Sounds like you are well place to comment on the boat that ran into a bell buoy in the middle of a fairway....

Was not us, don't know what boat is was,  so i cant comment...

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19 hours ago, OutofOffice said:

Speaking of dick swingin’ egos...way to have a discussion Dbag.

God forbid we discuss our sport and the shit that leads to its decline. You must be a blast to race with...

Oh well excuse me then.

Let me ask you this, how many of your mates  never made it home?

Have you ever been on a boat that lost someone, or sailed with folks who had?

It can change your perspective a wee amount.

 

As for the discussion. We are talking about a paltry sum of money relative to what it costs to sail or run a campaign. And what kept the OP away and promises to continue to keep him/her away is that he/she didn't read the NOR and SIs..... but it is the OA's fault. Think about that for a minute.

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11 hours ago, Moonduster said:

Yo Bill,

The conversation isn't about whether one can learn something from a SAS seminar. It's about whether the SAS seminar has a material effect on the outcome of those participating in a given regatta.

So far, the predominant effect appears to be a reduction in participation, which is surely not the intended outcome.

 

Not sure why you say that. Not sure why at all. Are you trying to argue that while you might learn something at a SAS that it probably not affect the outcome?

What reduces participation, and I watched it grow from the 1960's until the decline started sometime in the 1980's is folk's willingness to learn a challenging craft and spend countless hours pursuing that. Heck even the OP has all but admitted that as have a number of posters responding.

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6 hours ago, billy backstay said:

 

Good for you!!  It's great to see guys working to teach the racers of the future!  I was fortunate at age 16 to do the Halifax race on a C&C 35, Arrow.  The owner, Bruce Lockwood RIP, was always bringing on young folks and teaching them the ropes, and I raced with him for a couple of seasons, before moving on and up to bigger boats.  Bruce was well known, respected, and liked by all, on Long Island Sound and beyond, and we need more sailors like you, and Bruce in our world!

 

Mr. Lockwood was top shelf. Dad had a 35 and we raced countless miles against Arrow.... back when those boats were the joint.

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32 minutes ago, DHFiend said:

Was not us, don't know what boat is was,  so i cant comment...

How about what boat you were on?

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22 minutes ago, BillDBastard said:

Ding.

Double ding, my golf clubs cost way more than my kit.

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1 hour ago, BillDBastard said:

Oh well excuse me then.

Let me ask you this, how many of your mates  never made it home?

Have you ever been on a boat that lost someone, or sailed with folks who had?

It can change your perspective a wee amount.

 

As for the discussion. We are talking about a paltry sum of money relative to what it costs to sail or run a campaign. And what kept the OP away and promises to continue to keep him/her away is that he/she didn't read the NOR and SIs..... but it is the OA's fault. Think about that for a minute.

I don’t think you read most of these comments. Almost everyone addressed that it was OPs fault.

The broader discussion was the benefits vs costs. Not just money wise, but overall in participation, liability, etc. that’s ignoring the seeming conflict of interest since they mandate you spend money on a product they sell. Look, of course everyone should take whatever safety courses they feel is appropriate. No one is disputing that. But there is still a baseline truth, that all the SAS seminars in the world couldn’t prevent a number of accidents. What is a better idea, is reinforcing the concept of self-responsibility. It is your responsibility to look at the conditions and decide whether to participate or not. Hell, I’d even support some sort of a 50% entry fee refund if you did make the decision to back out. (provided the event can work around that). Sailing is a relatively safe sport and many of the deaths that do happen are freak accidents and no amount of SAS training can fix that.

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12 minutes ago, OutofOffice said:

What is a better idea, is reinforcing the concept of self-responsibility.

The seminars help provide the knowledge you need to take care of yourself

there is no "self-responsibility" without knowledge.

Like i said above - i've done 10's of thousands of ocean miles - most of it was pretty uneventful - and i still managed to learn things in the seminars. I certainly never righted a life raft except in the seminars...

I'm not saying t hat I support making them required.., just that, while they could be better, they are useful

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A good read - and granted this was a long time ago, but these were some very good sailors, several dinghy national champions, and just highlights what it is like when things go sideways on a race that is "not even in the ocean"...

https://www.si.com/vault/1986/07/14/629546/when-tomahawk-sank-the-mackinac-race-became-a-matter-of-survival

http://www.bycmack.com/history/1985_Port_Huron_to_Mack_Race_by_John_Burke_(2008).pdf

 

 

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2 minutes ago, us7070 said:

The seminars help provide the knowledge you need to take care of yourself

there is no "self-responsibility" without knowledge.

Like i said above - i've done 10's of thousands of ocean miles - most of it was pretty uneventful - and i still managed to learn things in the seminars. I certainly never righted a life raft except in the seminars...

Awesome. That’s of course assuming you take the hands-on course.

I learn things every time I’m on YouTube as well, perhaps we can mandate a few videos as well...

At this point, let’s just revamp the whole idea of boating. Mandate a license to operate a boat (don’t forget trailer towing) and mandate SAS training for all coastal vessels. Why not? We’d all benefit from the training.

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11 minutes ago, OutofOffice said:

Awesome. That’s of course assuming you take the hands-on course.

I learn things every time I’m on YouTube as well, perhaps we can mandate a few videos as well...

At this point, let’s just revamp the whole idea of boating. Mandate a license to operate a boat (don’t forget trailer towing) and mandate SAS training for all coastal vessels. Why not? We’d all benefit from the training.

your selective quoting of my post omitted the part where I said i _didn't_ support making them required...

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9 minutes ago, us7070 said:

your selective quoting of my post omitted the part where I said i _didn't_ support making them required...

I didn’t cut it out. Perhaps you edited it after I quoted it.

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2 hours ago, BillDBastard said:

Mr. Lockwood was top shelf. Dad had a 35 and we raced countless miles against Arrow.... back when those boats were the joint.

 

Bruce was a real Class Act!  This was back in the early 70's, when I sailed with him.  IIRC, his brother John had a wooden Herreshoff Catboat, that often won Off Soundings Pickle Dishes, with a 45% Penalty from previous years wins.  I think Bruce went to a J36 after Arrow, and something else after that?  I was told he raced with his family up into his 80's, writing the checks, and hanging out in the Afterguard, while his kids ran the boat. 

I was trimming the Genoa on Arrow, at the start of an ECYRA race, when Bill Donovans "Not By Bread Alone", a 41 footer T-boned us at the start. The metal headstay fitting on the bow struck the aluminum rail and winch pod right in front of me, as I was winding the Jenny in.  Tyler Keys and Jon Day repaired the cracked hull, but they could not match the old, faded white gelcoat, so two Coast Guard like red Chevrons were painted on each of the topsides, instead.  Tyler and Jon were doing a bunch of work on the well known yacht, "GEM" from Fairfield County, when it arrived from the SORC in Florida by truck, at the Essex Boat Works, with a traffic light in the cockpit!  Danny Gamba, I think was the Trucker, and he was quite the character also!  I was mate cook on a Gulfstar 51 with Tyler and Jon on a delivery from Florida to France in 1972?, I think?  Our departure was delayed, and we spent Thanksgiving in Bermuda, and departed in December, across the pond.  Two-thirds of the way to the Azores, we ran into a nasty gale, with 80+ knots, and 40 foot breaking waves.  We got knocked down a couple of times, and turned well past 90 degrees, without the spreaders touching the water, because we were pooped on the top of a big breaking wave.  We limped to the Azores with a bent rudder, cracked bulkead-hull joints and blown out portlights.  The water flattened the SS stern pulpit down to the deck from the pressure on the Horseshoe buoy mounted there. 

Anyway, we need more people to step up and help teach young sailors how to race, it's not something you can learn anywhere else, but by doing it, with experienced people willing to nurture an train.  

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Billy, I don't recall NBBA being a 41 footer back then...nor ever. IIRC she was a Chance 32/28 (maybe a 30/30?) which sometime mid/late 70's became a C&C 36 (when they were just brought to the market). You could be right. Just don't recall.

Gem, all of them were something to behold. Funny story of the traffic light. I always like how the hailing port was simply "WYOMING"... as in The Zeigler's owned the entire state!! As you know Benj was on that boat back then and a real good guy named Bruce Cochran. Cochran also sailed with Tony Widman on a series of boats named Freebooter.

I didn't realize Arrow had been t-boned and that's why the red stripes appeared. lad they missed you! I remember when Pegasus owned by Vic Kafetz* (another 35) was t-boned by WildCat, owner was William J. Walker...which if I recall was an Ericson 39. Actually hit Pegasus at full tilt and hit the leeward primary so hard it went over the weather rail.  Rugged little boats they were. Bill Goman did a good job with the engineering, not to shabby for a home builder!

 

*Vic Kafetz was the guy who figured out how to project a weathermap on the wall and have the weatherman standing in front of it without seeing it on him/her.

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1 hour ago, BillDBastard said:

Gem, all of them were something to behold. Funny story of the traffic light. I always like how the hailing port was simply "WYOMING"... as in The Zeigler's owned the entire state!! As you know Benj was on that boat back then and a real good guy named Bruce Cochran. Cochran also sailed with Tony Widman on a series of boats named Freebooter.

Bill, you may know this already (if you do, pardon my intrusion), but Wyoming is a town in Delaware - and yes, I had to ask. :rolleyes:

I love the traffic light story too, almost as much as that of another boat (which shall remain nameless) that arrived in Lauderdale without her cabin top winches - just a couple of rather large ragged holes in the deck. Apparently, she was just a little taller on the trailer than they figured. :blink:

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On 5/30/2018 at 12:56 PM, SOSOS said:

Let me get this straight:

  • You're such a thorough and prepared sailor that you are ready for any sailing conditions or unfortunate events that you may face
  • You didn't read the 3 page NOR

Was the irony intended?

+1. Hilarious.

On 5/29/2018 at 3:27 PM, Svanen said:

BTW, the Notice of Race did not "make EVERYONE take a 'Safety at Sea' course" (FFS, read the document!). Paragraph 15 required "at least 30% of those aboard the boat, but not fewer than two members of the crew, including the person in charge" to complete SAS within the past five years. That is not exactly onerous.

+1. The OP has no one to blame but himself, try as he might to pin it on others. And the OP might make a better case if he had his facts straight...

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It's Safety at Sea, sure you might not get back to your boat and immediately change the way you're sailing but if you don't come away from your day with some new things to think about and maybe a better sense of all the shit you don't know, you weren't paying attention.