AFTERGLOW

BLock Island Race- How to kill it..

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So, where to start.. Signed up over 2 mos ago for this race. Should have obviously read the NOR sometime before the week before but didn't. Come to find out with no further warning from the organizing Auth. that they are now requiring a "safety at Sea" course to have been taken to qualify to ENTER the race, a race that does not even sail in any "SEA" !!  Ok, so now we have four days to the race after reading this, spent a few grand on some new rags and many days of practicing to get ready and wham, we can't go because someone said we weren't "safe".. 

Now out of our crew of six people we figured out we had roughly 60+ Block Island races under our belt. No, we have never deployed a life raft, no we've never experienced a sinking.. all races made safely. So, because one person or two ?? had an issue and then sued the heck out of everyone the Storm Trysail Club decided that they should make EVERYONE take a "Safety at Sea" course offered by Storm Trysail and of course thru US Ailing for the tune of $95. and one day of training. While i applaud the effort of sailing organizers for making the sport more safe for all, sailing by itself is about as safe a sport as you can get besides maybe Golf.. We were never at sea! What's next, inspecting every boat for $200 and checking your rigging?

Ok so we drop out of a race we all had planned on and looked forward to which had great weather Btw, and I proceed to spend the weekend gardening and working on the yard which looks great! How many other people did this effect besides the 6 people on our boat? I know of several other boats personally. Why is Storm Trysail and US ailing getting involved in making people spend even more money, time and commitment on a sport that is dwindling? Why are they making this a condition to participate in the event itself? Should this not be a suggestion..? Is the skipper of the craft not responsible? This is just passing the buck and making the bucks $$ for their coffers on something that affected a couple people. 

Sad to say i may never do another Block race just because of this mentality and desire to make everyone do things because they can. How do you gain sailors for our sport, one at a time. How do you lose sailors for our sport, one boat at a time = 6 sailors in our case. Good luck next year with your race and hope that the numbers don't dive too steeply for you, but it will be safer, maybe..

The Gardiner

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Talk about "Nanny State"  takes over STC!

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1 minute ago, TonyFromSheepsheadBay said:

I agree with Billy!  Not to mention we were told if we didn't have ISAF Cat and crew list filled out  we couldn't sail. WTF?  

 

Great way to promote the sport!! NOTTTT!!!  Everyone has insurance, what's the big deal?  This is not the Bermuda Race, FFS!

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The Stamford Yacht Club requires it for the Vineyard Race as well.  In addition they also "recommend" that all crew take the online course as it will be mandatory for 2019. Talk about not making the event welcoming to the causal distance racer. 

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Having done BI Race and Vineyard in somewhat boisterous conditions, Some people who just day sail in LIS, then get a bunch of yahoos to go around BI may come unstuck.  But there are safety classes as well as seamanship considerations which I see as separate issues.

During one Vineyard race my forestay let go on a beam reach in 25 knots and my boat had a deck stepped mast.  No safety class would let me know to bear off to 170 degrees true, get all spare halyards forwards and tight, then drop the jib and secure the now loose forestay.  No safety class would tell the navigator he MUST find the gap through Long Sands Shoal so we can get to shelter in the Essex River.   I understand the man overboard thing etc (which will remain a skippers responsibility even on a day race) but this thread started talking about classes, NOT the type of experience needed to handle ANY unforeseen situation.

I've posted in the past about having 20,000 miles under my belt but no 'apparent' credentials.  It's like Mario Andretti not having passed his test for a drivers license.   

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33 minutes ago, 2savage said:

Having done BI Race and Vineyard in somewhat boisterous conditions, Some people who just day sail in LIS, then get a bunch of yahoos to go around BI may come unstuck.  But there are safety classes as well as seamanship considerations which I see as separate issues.

During one Vineyard race my forestay let go on a beam reach in 25 knots and my boat had a deck stepped mast.  No safety class would let me know to bear off to 170 degrees true, get all spare halyards forwards and tight, then drop the jib and secure the now loose forestay.  No safety class would tell the navigator he MUST find the gap through Long Sands Shoal so we can get to shelter in the Essex River.   I understand the man overboard thing etc (which will remain a skippers responsibility even on a day race) but this thread started talking about classes, NOT the type of experience needed to handle ANY unforeseen situation.

I've posted in the past about having 20,000 miles under my belt but no 'apparent' credentials.  It's like Mario Andretti not having passed his test for a drivers license.   

+100

Well said!

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With the year that sailing has had in regards to safety, it might be considered to be in poor taste to bemoan raising safety standards and I invite you to tell the widow of John Fisher that the sport is "basically as safe as golf." It's in doubly poor taste when the your inability to race was 100% self-inflicted by not reading the race instructions in time to attend the safety at sea seminar put on by STC the week before the race. It's in triply poor taste when you vent your frustrations anonymously in a public forum and package them with baseless implications of profiteering and grifting against an organization that is the pillar of Safety Offshore in the United States. 

The safety concerns associated with this race are real. Jamie Boeckel was killed on this race not that long ago, it happened to a group of sailors arguably 10 times more experienced than the crew of the J/100 you were going to sail on and it haunts the members of that crew to this day. The fund established in his memory provides SAS training to Junior Sailors to prevent the kind of accident which claimed his life. I've been a man overboard and I've picked up a man overboard. In both cases, I was glad to know that there were people on the boat who had been trained and forced to practice the maneuver under the eye of instructors before. I've had a rudder failure out of sight of land and was heartened to know that the people around me were trained to, and did, get the boat back to land sailing without steerage. I've had water ingress issues onto a race boat well into the Atlantic Ocean and felt safer because the man who fixed it was in the SAS class with me. 

It blew over 30 knots on the back side of Block Island Friday night and it was DARK. Whether you pedantically define Rhode Island Sound as the "sea" or not, the water out there is just above 50F which, when combined with air temperatures in the low 50s and the windchill, can knock you unconscious in less than an hour. There were 70 boats transiting the area at the time and most were performing sail changes, reefing, and other maneuvers in the middle of the night - all of which carry the risk of MOB situations.

When an accident can happen to anyone in that situation, why shouldn't everyone be held to some defined standard? Who are we to know that in your crew's 60+ BI races you experienced and solved every issue that is covered at a SAS seminar? To that end, there are people who do this race that are unqualified, either formally or informally, to perform in a safety crisis - period. For every Mario Andretti there are 10 first timers who don't know the quickstop maneuver. If the only way to bring at least 30% of every person on the water up to some known baseline of capability is to require they pay a safety expert a nominal fee and sit through a lecture and have a weird lunch of pale turkey sandwiches in the SUNY messhall then that's an acceptable cost to me.

If there are still people who would chose not to enter and race around the same track as me or I because they don't want to get trained then I say good riddance, go do the the Figawi, because I wouldn't want my life or yours to depend on a person who wanted to save a few bucks rather than a person.

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1 hour ago, AFTERGLOW said:

So, where to start.. Signed up over 2 mos ago for this race. Should have obviously read the NOR sometime before the week before but didn't. Come to find out with no further warning from the organizing Auth. that they are now requiring a "safety at Sea" course to have been taken to qualify to ENTER the race, a race that does not even sail in any "SEA" !!  Ok, so now we have four days to the race after reading this, spent a few grand on some new rags and many days of practicing to get ready and wham, we can't go because someone said we weren't "safe".. 

Now out of our crew of six people we figured out we had roughly 60+ Block Island races under our belt. No, we have never deployed a life raft, no we've never experienced a sinking.. all races made safely. So, because one person or two ?? had an issue and then sued the heck out of everyone the Storm Trysail Club decided that they should make EVERYONE take a "Safety at Sea" course offered by Storm Trysail and of course thru US Ailing for the tune of $95. and one day of training. While i applaud the effort of sailing organizers for making the sport more safe for all, sailing by itself is about as safe a sport as you can get besides maybe Golf.. We were never at sea! What's next, inspecting every boat for $200 and checking your rigging?

Ok so we drop out of a race we all had planned on and looked forward to which had great weather Btw, and I proceed to spend the weekend gardening and working on the yard which looks great! How many other people did this effect besides the 6 people on our boat? I know of several other boats personally. Why is Storm Trysail and US ailing getting involved in making people spend even more money, time and commitment on a sport that is dwindling? Why are they making this a condition to participate in the event itself? Should this not be a suggestion..? Is the skipper of the craft not responsible? This is just passing the buck and making the bucks $$ for their coffers on something that affected a couple people. 

Sad to say i may never do another Block race just because of this mentality and desire to make everyone do things because they can. How do you gain sailors for our sport, one at a time. How do you lose sailors for our sport, one boat at a time = 6 sailors in our case. Good luck next year with your race and hope that the numbers don't dive too steeply for you, but it will be safer, maybe..

The Gardiner

I want to be outraged and agree with you, but I just can't.  The NOR is 3 pages, and a pretty easy read by most standards.  In doing this race you're committing a good amount of time and money, you clearly prepared in other ways, why wouldn't you bother to read the entire NOR?

Who told you that sailing is as safe a sport as golf?  Do you actually believe this?  Either you're not aware of the various risks every time you get on the boat, or you're playing some fucked up version of golf.

The Safety at Sea requirement makes a lot of sense, it's good to have people out there who can react quickly in emergency situations and come to the assistance of others if need be.  Sure, you're not out in the middle of the ocean, and the Coast Guard or local police can react fairly quickly.  However, if you're on site then you're the first responder, and it's extremely valuable to have some sort of muscle memory from training for these situations instead of acting on impulse.

Many things and stupid decisions may be hurting the sport, but this requirement is not one of them.  If you can't afford the course or don't have the time to sit in the classroom or on a computer, then you shouldn't be doing the race.

 

Glad the yard work went well, if you're not going to sail next year I'll throw you a few bucks to come by and mow my lawn.

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59 minutes ago, TonyFromSheepsheadBay said:

18 pct of the fleet retired in fairly routine conditions. Including some very experienced boats..  Maybe STC is right and more training is needed.  

 

That proves the exact opposite; it indicates that no training is needed if 18% of the fleet felt uncomfortable enough to retire.

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I am surprised every racer inshore or off does not have advanced or basic SAS certificate. You only need to attend every three years right?

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who  is the OA for the BI Race?  Who runs the SAS seminars?  follow the $$$

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24 minutes ago, Greyhound37 said:

I am surprised every racer inshore or off does not have advanced or basic SAS certificate. You only need to attend every three years right?

NFW.. and I'm not arguing that the SAS seminar isn't excellent...but   asking every person who races a sailboat to be SAS certified for every distance race is asking too much.  even every 3 years, $300 x 7 is $2100 every 3 years.   People who are not boat owners are going to stop racing I'm afraid ...more than they are now

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2 minutes ago, dacapo said:

who  is the OA for the BI Race?  Who runs the SAS seminars?  follow the $$$

 

The cynic in me expects that you are correct!  OTOH, perhaps some people should have this training.  Those of us who have thousands of miles over 3-5 decades, could probably use a Safety refresher, but not Seamanship.

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I agree that minimum counts and percentages are likely acceptable.  At least that way there will most likely be someone to assume charge and sort things out if there's a problem.

That said, the training only makes sense to me.  I stayed SAS qualified as crew because I like to live, and maintain it was an owner.  I will pay for anyone crewing a distance race with me to take the class, ideally the two day with the in water component. Given the rest of what it costs to sail, its just good math.

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The 2019 Vineyard race will require everyone to take the Safety At Sea online course. Just curious but did this race require the "Hands On" training?

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5 hours ago, AFTERGLOW said:

So, where to start.. Signed up over 2 mos ago for this race. Should have obviously read the NOR sometime before the week before but didn't. Come to find out with no further warning from the organizing Auth. that they are now requiring a "safety at Sea" course to have been taken to qualify to ENTER the race, a race that does not even sail in any "SEA" !!  Ok, so now we have four days to the race after reading this, spent a few grand on some new rags and many days of practicing to get ready and wham, we can't go because someone said we weren't "safe".. 

Now out of our crew of six people we figured out we had roughly 60+ Block Island races under our belt. No, we have never deployed a life raft, no we've never experienced a sinking.. all races made safely. So, because one person or two ?? had an issue and then sued the heck out of everyone the Storm Trysail Club decided that they should make EVERYONE take a "Safety at Sea" course offered by Storm Trysail and of course thru US Ailing for the tune of $95. and one day of training.

I'm personally not a big supporter of the SAS requirement, which seems like overkill for a shortish race like that. More to the point, there's only so much time and money I have for training, and I prefer to put them towards keeping my other qualifications  - including the somewhat similar STCW basic safety (which rightly or wrongly doesn't count for racing) - current.

That said, surely it is the prerogative of the OA to decide what the equipment and crew requirements should be. The OP couldn't be arsed to read the NoR - which, as RumLine pointed out, is only three pages long - and somehow blames STC (and US Sailing, not even involved with the race!) for his carelessness? Yeah, right.

It's their game, so you play by their rules, or you don't play. What could be simpler?

BTW, the Notice of Race did not "make EVERYONE take a 'Safety at Sea' course" (FFS, read the document!). Paragraph 15 required "at least 30% of those aboard the boat, but not fewer than two members of the crew, including the person in charge" to complete SAS within the past five years. That is not exactly onerous.

3 hours ago, 2savage said:

I've posted in the past about having 20,000 miles under my belt but no 'apparent' credentials.  It's like Mario Andretti not having passed his test for a drivers license.   

Well, I have rather more than 20,000 ocean miles logged, and don't consider myself even close to approaching Mario's Andretti's experience or competence. YMMV.

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2 hours ago, RumLine said:

I want to be outraged and agree with you, but I just can't.  The NOR is 3 pages, and a pretty easy read by most standards.  In doing this race you're committing a good amount of time and money, you clearly prepared in other ways, why wouldn't you bother to read the entire NOR?

 

Granted, it was pretty clearly spelled out in the NOR and OP should have known the requirement at that point but if the requirement is for the live, hands-on seminar then publishing it in the NOR probably isn't sufficient notice - there may not be a local, live seminar on the date(s) when sailors are available to attend.

My quibbles would be a) they should have given notice last year that this requirement would be enforced this year, so people had time to line up a seminar; and b) they should have just used the ISAF SER requirement (4.3.2) for a Coastal race (which accepts the $50, five hour online offering as meeting the Coastal requirement).

I definitely think it's a worthwhile requirement and anyone who sails outside of protected waters (especially if they don't do it very often) should take the course.

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With 50 years of big boat sailing behind me and a lot of ocean passages, I was quite surprised at how much I learned in the SAS class I took.  The medical stuff taught has already come in handy.  The liferaft experience was eye-opening.  Even in a pool, I never want to be in one again.

The MOB stuff I regrettably had actually practiced in the wild, a couple of times too many.

 

Reading the NOR is kind of basic stuff.  What else hasn't the OP read?  The VHF operator's manual?   The little notes that explains the weather symbols?

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2 hours ago, dacapo said:

NFW.. and I'm not arguing that the SAS seminar isn't excellent...but   asking every person who races a sailboat to be SAS certified for every distance race is asking too much.  even every 3 years, $300 x 7 is $2100 every 3 years.   People who are not boat owners are going to stop racing I'm afraid ...more than they are now

This right here. I don't even spend $300 every 3 years on sailing clothing that I can wear more than once. 

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8 minutes ago, trimfast said:

This right here. I don't even spend $300 every 3 years on sailing clothing that I can wear more than once. 

Re-do the math, please.  It's 30% of crew once every five years.

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26 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

Re-do the math, please.  It's 30% of crew once every five years.

$60/yr ($300 for a five year cert) probably isn't even gloves money. Certainly not beer money.

And, do recreational racers really expect their skippers/owners to fund this?

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2 day course is A$395 here in Melbourne

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18 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

$60/yr ($300 for a five year cert) probably isn't even gloves money. Certainly not beer money.

And, do recreational racers really expect their skippers/owners to fund this?

haven't worn gloves on keelboats in years... and i've got aggressive eczema. anywho, i expect boat owners on some of the boats i race on to pick some of my costs, but SAS (which i don't have), is definitely not one of them. 

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The OP shoulda read the NOR early on.  No sympathy from that standpoint.

Our world worships at the Altar of Education.  The Temple of Personal Responsibility has been shuttered for years now.  Mostly, I suspect that's what the OP's real complaint is.

Can one ever have enough knowledge? Will they be worse off for having it?  Of course not.  These days, one must continuously keep a weather eye peeled for a hovering lawyer.  Taking classes won't stop bad decisions, but 'might' save a life---we'll probably not be able to quantify it.

But another nail went into the coffin of Participation in Organized Sailing Events.  Be as safe as you want but don't decry the decline and eventual cessation of non-professional sailing events.

To the OP: Go sail the course anyway.  You and your crew have fun.  (probably your PHRF rating isn't fair, so it won't matter... I mean, whose is?)

 

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10 minutes ago, Veeger said:

 The Temple of Personal Responsibility has been shuttered for years now.  

This.

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I’d be fine with more distance races requiring SAS training IF costs came down and more locations were made available based on increased demand. 

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28 minutes ago, mustang__1 said:

haven't worn gloves on keelboats in years... and i've got aggressive eczema. anywho, i expect boat owners on some of the boats i race on to pick some of my costs, but SAS (which i don't have), is definitely not one of them. 

Thanks for sharing that.

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6 minutes ago, TonyFromSheepsheadBay said:

Here is another current safety  requirement for this and other LIS races.  Show of hands, do you think anyone violated it?

4. Safety equipment to be worn
AB 4.1 A personal flotation device and safety harness shall be worn whenever one of the following conditions exist:
 a. between the hours of sunset and sunrise.
 b. when alone on deck.
 c. when the true wind speed is 25 knots or above.
 d. when the mainsail is reefed.
 e. when visibility is less than one nautical mile.  

There was an afternoon race out here last year in typical Southern California conditions (sunny, warm, 8-12 knots) where we noticed that the committee boat was flying flag "Y." We didn't see anyone else (other than a couple of smaller guys) donning their PFDs so we didn't either. RC mentioned at the club afterward that most of the fleet had broken rule 40, but didn't protest anyone on it. I think they just wanted to see what would happen...

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11 minutes ago, TonyFromSheepsheadBay said:

Here is another current safety  requirement for this and other LIS races.  Show of hands, do you think anyone violated it?

4. Safety equipment to be worn
AB 4.1 A personal flotation device and safety harness shall be worn whenever one of the following conditions exist:
 a. between the hours of sunset and sunrise.
 b. when alone on deck.
 c. when the true wind speed is 25 knots or above.
 d. when the mainsail is reefed.
 e. when visibility is less than one nautical mile.  

I’ve seen similar in many races, and have no problem with it. Those are all conditions where a MOB is harder to find or pick up, so why not require a vest?  I dislike a lot of the nanny state nonsense, but that’s somewhat reasonable. 

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43 minutes ago, TonyFromSheepsheadBay said:

Here is another current safety  requirement for this and other LIS races.  Show of hands, do you think anyone violated it?

4. Safety equipment to be worn
AB 4.1 A personal flotation device and safety harness shall be worn whenever one of the following conditions exist:
 a. between the hours of sunset and sunrise.
 b. when alone on deck.
 c. when the true wind speed is 25 knots or above.
 d. when the mainsail is reefed.
 e. when visibility is less than one nautical mile.  

Toney,

Qitte thet shitte, notte realey helpeng in anney way.  Thack you.

S.

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24 minutes ago, TonyFromSheepsheadBay said:

8-12 knots around here is blowing dogs off chains.   So on an August night when you are drifting around Todds Point finishing a Stratford Shoal Race at 10pm,  everyone better be clipped in! 

Toney,

Qitte thet shitte, notte realley helpeng in anney way.  Thack you.

S.

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39 minutes ago, TonyFromSheepsheadBay said:

Here is another current safety  requirement for this and other LIS races.  Show of hands, do you think anyone violated it?

4. Safety equipment to be worn
AB 4.1 A personal flotation device and safety harness shall be worn whenever one of the following conditions exist:
 a. between the hours of sunset and sunrise.
 b. when alone on deck.
 c. when the true wind speed is 25 knots or above.
 d. when the mainsail is reefed.
 e. when visibility is less than one nautical mile.  

There’s part of this rule that is ok, and part that isn’t. Like floating around at night, when it’s blowing all of 3, from a variety of directions, you just don’t need either a life jacket or a harness.

its also a poorly worded rule. It just says “worn”.

it does not say “used”, as in “yes he was wearing a harness, but he wasn’t clipped in”.

I’m just not sure how we all survived in the past without these requirements.

I’m all for sailing safe, and having exposure to the latest safety stuff, but this regulatory burden isn’t going to help increase participation in the long run.

Theres also this assumption that showing up for a class once every five years and getting a certificate makes you somehow suddenly safer, a better seaman. It doesn’t.

 

 

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peep, peep peep. theres little birds everywhere.

imagine that a little bird associated with a major race told you "ah, don't worry about it, nobody is going to check"

unbeleivable

a different little bird opined "get rid of the electronics and you get rid of the incompetents"

beleivable

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5 hours ago, TJSoCal said:

$60/yr ($300 for a five year cert) probably isn't even gloves money. Certainly not beer money.

And, do recreational racers really expect their skippers/owners to fund this?

You can save a ton of money on beer if you’re dead. 

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5 hours ago, Left Shift said:

Thanks for sharing that.

you're welcome, i'm glad you found it useful. from the bottom of dark sarcastic heart. 

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57 minutes ago, jackolantern said:

You can save a ton of money on beer if you’re dead. 

yeah but the rent is expensive... one time fee i guess, though. 

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4 hours ago, sunseeker said:

...I’m just not sure how we all survived in the past without these requirements.

We didn't all survive, that's why the requirements are there. If I never had to hear about or go to another sailing friend's funeral, that'd work just fine for me.

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The problem with legislated safety classes is that they violate two fundamentals:

  • Safety cannot be legislated
  • Common sense cannot be taught

And these fundamentals need to be considered in light of the fact that sailing is an intrinsically dangerous pursuit and that injury or death must always be on the list of anticipated outcomes.

Mandating endless safety equipment and training has not, to the best of my knowledge, had any significant effect on outcomes. Thrashing around in a pool in foul weather gear, a PFD and a life raft might be informative and amusing for some, but it is of real value to a vanishingly small number of individuals and most of those will never take such a class.

And I'd be quite comfortable explaining to anyone that golf is more dangerous than rugby and hockey and water sports, too. And we know that nearly all water sport injuries involve personal water craft and power boats, sailing accounts for approximately 5% of water sports injuries; ocean racing approximately 0%.

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The problem with legislated safety classes is that they violate two fundamentals:

  • Safety cannot be legislated
  • Common sense cannot be taught

And these fundamentals need to be considered in light of the fact that sailing is an intrinsically dangerous pursuit and that injury or death must always be on the list of anticipated outcomes.

Mandating endless safety equipment and training has not, to the best of my knowledge, had any significant effect on outcomes. Thrashing around in a pool in foul weather gear, a PFD and a life raft might be informative and amusing for some, but it is of real value to a vanishingly small number of individuals and most of those will never take such a class.

And I'd be quite comfortable explaining to anyone that golf is more dangerous than rugby and hockey and water sports, too. And we know that nearly all water sport injuries involve personal water craft and power boats, sailing accounts for approximately 5% of water sports injuries; ocean racing approximately 0%.

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The problem with legislated safety classes is that they violate two fundamentals:

  • Safety cannot be legislated
  • Common sense cannot be taught

And these fundamentals need to be considered in light of the fact that sailing is an intrinsically dangerous pursuit and that injury or death must always be on the list of anticipated outcomes.

Mandating endless safety equipment and training has not, to the best of my knowledge, had any significant effect on outcomes. Thrashing around in a pool in foul weather gear, a PFD and a life raft might be informative and amusing for some, but it is of real value to a vanishingly small number of individuals and most of those will never take such a class.

And I'd be quite comfortable explaining to anyone that golf is more dangerous than rugby and hockey and water sports, too. And we know that nearly all water sport injuries involve personal water craft and power boats, sailing accounts for approximately 5% of water sports injuries; ocean racing approximately 0%.

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5 hours ago, Katydid said:

We didn't all survive, that's why the requirements are there. If I never had to hear about or go to another sailing friend's funeral, that'd work just fine for me.

While the deaths in sailing are tragic, look no further than this Volvo for how effective all the equipment and safety requirements have been.

two deaths.

I’d like to see the historical numbers of deaths year over year across the sport while weighing the number of participants. Seems to me there were fewer deaths when the fleets were bigger. Maybe it’s because we raced offshore and at night more often and the skill/experience level was higher.

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This is like arguing with the no-seatbelt drivers or no-helmet motorcylists. Why not take reasonably available, reasonably priced steps to increase your likelihood of a successful experience?

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Question:

I thought the SAS came in two flavors:  You could attend the 1 day course, or you can attend the 2 day course with the swimming pool session, jumping into the water in your foulies and crawling into the liferaft.

Does this race require the Full Monty or just the basic, Saturday half?

I often find myself in disagreement with Moon, but not this time. The idea that you can educate or legislate away stupidity has been proven false too many times. The phrase "We need to make sure that this never, ever happens again" is unattainable, pollyanna bullshit.  The only way to achieve a zero defect environment is to eliminate the environment (ie, racing).

Basic, common sense safety policies? Yes, but at some point, a line needs to be drawn between effective and overly burdensome.

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I don't think anyone is suggesting that you can legislate away stupidity. I think some are saying that education may improve outcomes in some instances. 

Also, its fun to get together with a bunch of sailors in the off season!

 

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4 minutes ago, sshow bob said:

I don't think anyone is suggesting that you can legislate away stupidity. I think some are saying that education may improve outcomes in some instances. 

 

Nope, the idiots are running the ship for any real legislation to get passed that means more to the people, than those who can make a check mark on their record of look what I did.

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15 hours ago, TJSoCal said:

Granted, it was pretty clearly spelled out in the NOR and OP should have known the requirement at that point but if the requirement is for the live, hands-on seminar then publishing it in the NOR probably isn't sufficient notice - there may not be a local, live seminar on the date(s) when sailors are available to attend.

My quibbles would be a) they should have given notice last year that this requirement would be enforced this year, so people had time to line up a seminar; and b) they should have just used the ISAF SER requirement (4.3.2) for a Coastal race (which accepts the $50, five hour online offering as meeting the Coastal requirement).

I definitely think it's a worthwhile requirement and anyone who sails outside of protected waters (especially if they don't do it very often) should take the course.

Locally they were held in March and May of 2018.  Storm Trysail, US Sailing and Cruising Club of America all provide plenty of resources online and even encourage you to attend seminars held by other providers if the dates aren't convenient.  This isn't a story about the "man" keeping the poor people down, this is a group effort to make our sport just a little safer.

https://www.stormtrysail.org/safety-at-sea

https://www.ussailing.org/education/adult/safety-at-sea-courses/find-a-course-near-you/

https://www.cruisingclub.org/safety-sea

 

For those of you running Junior Programs and want your kids trained, here's the schedule for 2018 Junior Safety at Sea:

https://www.stormtrysailfoundation.org/safety-at-sea-seminars

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13 hours ago, TonyFromSheepsheadBay said:

Here is another current safety  requirement for this and other LIS races.  Show of hands, do you think anyone violated it?

4. Safety equipment to be worn
AB 4.1 A personal flotation device and safety harness shall be worn whenever one of the following conditions exist:
 a. between the hours of sunset and sunrise.
 b. when alone on deck.
 c. when the true wind speed is 25 knots or above.
 d. when the mainsail is reefed.
 e. when visibility is less than one nautical mile.  

I did it last year on a multi hull with no lifelines so I was clipped in 100% of the time,  Even when conditions were light It would have been embarrassing to fall in and the boat had to come around to pick me back up and loose some time.

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5 minutes ago, RumLine said:

Locally they were held in March and May of 2018.  Storm Trysail, US Sailing and Cruising Club of America all provide plenty of resources online and even encourage you to attend seminars held by other providers if the dates aren't convenient.  This isn't a story about the "man" keeping the poor people down, this is a group effort to make our sport just a little safer.

https://www.stormtrysail.org/safety-at-sea

https://www.ussailing.org/education/adult/safety-at-sea-courses/find-a-course-near-you/

https://www.cruisingclub.org/safety-sea

 

For those of you running Junior Programs and want your kids trained, here's the schedule for 2018 Junior Safety at Sea:

https://www.stormtrysailfoundation.org/safety-at-sea-seminars

Also for what it's worth, being a Bermuda year registering for those classes needed to happen in 2017. I tried to register in early February and the Newport class was booked full. 

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18 hours ago, Car Ramrod said:

With the year that sailing has had in regards to safety, it might be considered to be in poor taste to bemoan raising safety standards and I invite you to tell the widow of John Fisher that the sport is "basically as safe as golf." It's in doubly poor taste when the your inability to race was 100% self-inflicted by not reading the race instructions in time to attend the safety at sea seminar put on by STC the week before the race. It's in triply poor taste when you vent your frustrations anonymously in a public forum and package them with baseless implications of profiteering and grifting against an organization that is the pillar of Safety Offshore in the United States. 

The safety concerns associated with this race are real. Jamie Boeckel was killed on this race not that long ago, it happened to a group of sailors arguably 10 times more experienced than the crew of the J/100 you were going to sail on and it haunts the members of that crew to this day. The fund established in his memory provides SAS training to Junior Sailors to prevent the kind of accident which claimed his life. I've been a man overboard and I've picked up a man overboard. In both cases, I was glad to know that there were people on the boat who had been trained and forced to practice the maneuver under the eye of instructors before. I've had a rudder failure out of sight of land and was heartened to know that the people around me were trained to, and did, get the boat back to land sailing without steerage. I've had water ingress issues onto a race boat well into the Atlantic Ocean and felt safer because the man who fixed it was in the SAS class with me. 

It blew over 30 knots on the back side of Block Island Friday night and it was DARK. Whether you pedantically define Rhode Island Sound as the "sea" or not, the water out there is just above 50F which, when combined with air temperatures in the low 50s and the windchill, can knock you unconscious in less than an hour. There were 70 boats transiting the area at the time and most were performing sail changes, reefing, and other maneuvers in the middle of the night - all of which carry the risk of MOB situations.

When an accident can happen to anyone in that situation, why shouldn't everyone be held to some defined standard? Who are we to know that in your crew's 60+ BI races you experienced and solved every issue that is covered at a SAS seminar? To that end, there are people who do this race that are unqualified, either formally or informally, to perform in a safety crisis - period. For every Mario Andretti there are 10 first timers who don't know the quickstop maneuver. If the only way to bring at least 30% of every person on the water up to some known baseline of capability is to require they pay a safety expert a nominal fee and sit through a lecture and have a weird lunch of pale turkey sandwiches in the SUNY messhall then that's an acceptable cost to me.

If there are still people who would chose not to enter and race around the same track as me or I because they don't want to get trained then I say good riddance, go do the the Figawi, because I wouldn't want my life or yours to depend on a person who wanted to save a few bucks rather than a person.

So you’re saying that a 1 day safety course will prepare me for a situation better than the 45+ experience on the water? 

I personally don’t think so. I do think that a group with 60+ races are pretty well experienced in anything that may arise, so the “who are we to know that the crew ‘experienced and solved EVERY event covered by the course’ “

That just makes you sound ignorant; in fact your whole rant is. 

Go enjoy yours pale turkey sandwich and I hope a 1day course makes a truly trained out of you.

Meanwhile, since this thread started, a couple of innocent kids were killed on bikes either due to no helmet or lack of skills/judgement because their parents didn’t adequately train them for every situation they may face on the road and a couple of kids drowned in pools, rivers and lakes because they weren’t properly trained. A kid somewhere got a gun and shot another kid because they didn’t have proper weapons training, etc...read news headlines and make sure you take a driver safety course this month. You can’t be such an arrogant  driver that you feel that you don’t need to sharpen your skills and take a First responder course or two before they let you on the road so you can be prepared to assist in any situation on the road!

thank you and I’ll shut the duck up now

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2 minutes ago, RImike said:

Also for what it's worth, being a Bermuda year registering for those classes needed to happen in 2017. I tried to register in early February and the Newport class was booked full. 

That's a fair point, I heard from someone who flew down to the Texas course to get a break from the New England weather.  I'm told they did an amazing job running the course.

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5 hours ago, Moonduster said:

And I'd be quite comfortable explaining to anyone that golf is more dangerous than rugby and hockey and water sports, too. And we know that nearly all water sport injuries involve personal water craft and power boats, sailing accounts for approximately 5% of water sports injuries; ocean racing approximately 0%.

You would be comfortable explaining this because you're considering a pulled muscle an injury.  Anyone who sails competitively walks off the boat most days with a new bruise, pulled muscle, cut or other minor inconvenience.  I doubt any of us consider it an injury.  I've watched people get concussions sailing, someone on board diagnoses them, we keep an eye on them, reduce their booze consumption after racing and get back out on the water the next day.  Hockey players have been known to play through with broken bones, and from what I can tell rugby players take pleasure in pain.  Your statistics are misleading.

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35 minutes ago, RImike said:

I did it last year on a multi hull with no lifelines so I was clipped in 100% of the time,  Even when conditions were light It would have been DANGEROUS to fall in and the boat had to come around to pick me back up and loose some time.

Got that word spelled correctly for you

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26 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

Got that word spelled correctly for you

but yet you missed the fact that "loose" should have been "lose"

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1 hour ago, Sail4beer said:

So you’re saying that a 1 day safety course will prepare me for a situation better than the 45+ experience on the water? 

 

 

What it _will_ do is supplement what you learned in your 45 years (or is it 45k miles?) on the water.

Like you, I have 10's of thousands of ocean miles behind me - I have taken the class 3 times now -  including the in-the-water twice. I can honestly say that the classes are worth the time; you will learn things you don't know, and do things you haven't done. And if you tell me you _have_ done them all then you have effectively taken a safety class..., but it's pretty unlikely that you have. In my 10's of thousands of miles, I have never righted an overturned liferaft in the water - but I have done it twice in the class.

I am not offering an opinion on whether the class should be required.

I do agree that there is at least the appearance of an issue with STC requiring the class and (presumably) making money off of it. Personally, I don't care - I'm a member and if they do make money I trust that it goes to a good purpose. Also - other non-STC classes will meet the requirement.

Overwhelmingly, sailors I have spoken with have felt that the classes were useful. Just one simple example - almost no body who has taken the class doubts the importance of wearing thigh straps with a PFD. Sure, they could have read the recommendation somewhere, but actually experiencing the difference in the water impressed them much more than reading it would have.

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49 minutes ago, Parma said:

but yet you missed the fact that "loose" should have been "lose"

My autocorrect makes it too hard to edit every word easily, so I tried really hard to infinite it. I wrote ignore and it comes up infinite...

AAE07850-0A87-4977-B062-F7E162D4008D.jpeg

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Us7070. I agree to the validity of safety courses 100%. I went to school to learn all of the things that society agrees to as a whole, which straight up experience could never teach me.

It’s just that if you have to take the course to participate in this individual event, how long is it going to be before our local regattas require the same? I would think that safety courses for youth fleets would be good, just like the driver safety classes they have to take. 

Plus, would one course cover me for BIRW, Newport to Bermuda or Marion to Bermuda? Days and dollars spent redundantly would take their toll on participants pretty quickly in my opinion.

And I am amazed that Tonyfromsheepshead sounds like an intelligent sailor! I thought he was just here for the ball busting!!! 

 

 

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3 hours ago, sshow bob said:

I don't think anyone is suggesting that you can legislate away stupidity. I think some are saying that education may improve outcomes in some instances. 

Also, its fun to get together with a bunch of sailors in the off season!

 

Granted you can't legislate away stupidity. But you can legislate/rulemake away the OA's liability. Honestly, I think that's the point of all these rules.

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3 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

So you’re saying that a 1 day safety course will prepare me for a situation better than the 45+ experience on the water? 

I personally don’t think so. I do think that a group with 60+ races are pretty well experienced in anything that may arise, so the “who are we to know that the crew ‘experienced and solved EVERY event covered by the course’ “

That just makes you sound ignorant; in fact your whole rant is. 

Go enjoy yours pale turkey sandwich and I hope a 1day course makes a truly trained out of you.

Meanwhile, since this thread started, a couple of innocent kids were killed on bikes either due to no helmet or lack of skills/judgement because their parents didn’t adequately train them for every situation they may face on the road and a couple of kids drowned in pools, rivers and lakes because they weren’t properly trained. A kid somewhere got a gun and shot another kid because they didn’t have proper weapons training, etc...read news headlines and make sure you take a driver safety course this month. You can’t be such an arrogant  driver that you feel that you don’t need to sharpen your skills and take a First responder course or two before they let you on the road so you can be prepared to assist in any situation on the road!

thank you and I’ll shut the duck up now

I've been doing this shit for two decades and change... and if it's anything i've learned, it's that if you can't learn from other people and try to take advantages of experiences put in front of you, then you're severely knee capping yourself. I've sailed with too many people who "have been sailing for longer than you've been alive" that will sit there gleefully with the mainsheet in their hand while i hear the rudder gurgling and stalling out from the bow. I've seen people who have done "seven mac races" wrap an armband strobe light around an inflatable PFD. Experience means nothing if you don't evaluate and reflect on what you've learned through academic and practical experience - to make sure that what you've learned is a fact - or at least logical - or lunacy. 

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Maybe.  I do  Plaintiffs' work, and I wouldn't see these rules as any kind of major bar to suing the OA, if there were liability to find against the OA in the first place. 

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1 hour ago, Sail4beer said:

It’s just that if you have to take the course to participate in this individual event, how long is it going to be before our local regattas require the same? I would think that safety courses for youth fleets would be good, just like the driver safety classes they have to take.

They are good, and STC offers them as well, as RumLine noted above.

Plus, would one course cover me for BIRW, Newport to Bermuda or Marion to Bermuda? Days and dollars spent redundantly would take their toll on participants pretty quickly in my opinion.

Yes, I'm pretty sure one course every five years (?) would cover you for all of those requirements.

I submit that there are good reasons for taking a SAS course:
First, not everyone out there is a very experienced sailor - in fact, some don't realize what training they need, or what risks they may be taking.
Second, getting exposure to best practices and new equipment that even very experienced sailors may not be familiar with, as others have pointed out.
Third, getting simple practice at skills that can become rusty over time.

The objection that taking a course won't save everyone, while true, doesn't hold up to scrutiny; as sshow bob points out, it's not about saving everyone, but about improving the odds.

There are also good reasons for requiring some people on each boat to take the course, and they may not be the same as the reasons for taking it. Foremost among these is that OAs have an obligation to their members to manage risk in events they run - making sure that entrants have some idea about how to deal with the risks they inevitably take is a large part of that risk management. BTW, as has also been observed, the seminars cost more to offer than the participants pay, so the argument that this is a way to raise money is nonsense.

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Here are just two reasons why it makes sense for at least 30% of the crew to have a recent SaS certificate:

  • They will be familiar with MOB techniques and practices relevant to racing. 100,000 ocean miles on cruise or delivery may not include returning to pick up a crew member who falls overboard while the boat is doing 12 knots with a kite up. Old dogs can still learn new tricks.
  • They will have hands-on experience with fire and stuff that can otherwise hurt you . We have professional firefighters setting fires that students put out with fire extinguishers and/or blankets. No one should try that at home. Same goes for SOLAS flares and rockets. Program participants set off a flare and/or rocket, which one ordinarily would not do in the absence of an emergency.

These are pragmatic benefits to the program.

My own view, not authorized or endorsed by anyone else: We should improve access to courses. If an OA decides to make SaS attendance mandatory, which is the general trend, then I think it becomes incumbent on the various OAs and the organizations sponsoring SaS courses to figure out a way to provide reduced-cost or tuition-free access to those who can't otherwise afford to participate.

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1 hour ago, mustang__1 said:

I've been doing this shit for two decades and change... and if it's anything i've learned, it's that if you can't learn from other people and try to take advantages of experiences put in front of you, then you're severely knee capping yourself. I've sailed with too many people who "have been sailing for longer than you've been alive" that will sit there gleefully with the mainsheet in their hand while i hear the rudder gurgling and stalling out from the bow. I've seen people who have done "seven mac races" wrap an armband strobe light around an inflatable PFD. Experience means nothing if you don't evaluate and reflect on what you've learned through academic and practical experience - to make sure that what you've learned is a fact - or at least logical - or lunacy. 

We’ve all been there.

There are a ton of shitty sailors out there who need to be taught the basics of seamanship in general.  But I’m not referring to any of us, of course. 

My motto is “Think Safety-At All Times”. I learned that a long time ago. 

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18 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

We’ve all been there.

There are a ton of shitty sailors out there who need to be taught the basics of seamanship in general.  But I’m not referring to any of us, of course. 

My motto is “Think Safety-At All Times”. I learned that a long time ago. 

the guy with the strobe velcroed around the PFD was thinking safety too.... not thinking very smartly or critically... but... something. 

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Enough with all this safety crap.

I heard rumors that a 45 foot boat T-boned a Gong in broad daylight.

 

Does anyone have the scoop, what boat and what Gong?  

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4 minutes ago, mustang__1 said:

the guy with the strobe velcroed around the PFD was thinking safety too.... not thinking very smartly or critically... but... something. 

Word...

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3 minutes ago, TonyFromSheepsheadBay said:

It's relevant. SAS is adding avoiding buoys in the next curriculum update. 

Specifically Green Gong's??

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Let me get this straight:

  • You're such a thorough and prepared sailor that you are ready for any sailing conditions or unfortunate events that you may face
  • You didn't read the 3 page NOR

Was the irony intended?

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I am a big boat owner, crew member on another big boat, chair of my club's junior sailing program, and PRO of an annual Opti regatta.  The sheer volume of regulations, requirements, training, certifications and paper is insane. 

And here's the more insane part.  At face value, every one of those requirements is grounded in solid thinking and in good intentions.  It's not a scam, it's not some dubious for-profit scheme, it's because some well-meaning person or entity had real reason to create some new regulation or requirement.

Yet, over time,  as they are all piled on top of each other, they become this unworkable morass, a layer cake with no reason or structure, just a goopy, voluminous mess.

From a bi-annual recert of a MOM-8, to mandated anti-bullying training that US Sailing requires for those involved with junior sailing, to powerboat safe handling and prop guards, and whatnot, there are so many competing and redundant rules and regulations that the overall system is a morass.  On top of that, we sailors complain incessantly about ratings and rating systems (which is better, IRC or ORR?), boat classes (which is better, a Laser or an Aero?), and here, whether 30% of crew on a near-shore distance race should have current safety training. 

No wonder our sport is fragmenting and dying.  Who wants to be a part of this shit-show?

We can debate these issues again and again, but in the absence of leadership and vision, we will get, as usual, nowhere.

Wouldn't it be nice if US Sailing and World Sailing demonstrated some leadership and re-thought the current state of affairs?  Maybe start by creating training classes that are incremental in focus, but cumulative on a whole. That are global in nature, with the same curriculum in Sydney as in Stamford.  Training is currently done in a vacuum.  It should not be.  An overall training scheme should build from smaller boats, with in-shore risk and local resources readily available, to near-shore, to off-shore.  Then, maybe, link your World Sailing number to a database.  Log your races, your miles, and your training against your number.  And build a history of both experience and training.  Perhaps base entry requirements on that, such that inshore boats are subject to easily-achieved requirements, while offshore boats need a certain number of crew who have demonstrated experience but can take crew who do not.  And maybe we can get the newbies onto boats and interested without daunting and largely one-size-fits-all requirements, while those with experience can be challenged with more advanced training instead of doing the same thing over and over., every few years, solely to check off a box on the entry requirements list.

Or, take that idea and decide that it's stupid.  It may well be.  But someone, somewhere, needs to start with something.  Otherwise, no change from the status quo: instead of starting with a clean slate and new thinking, US Sailing will work on decorating their new offices at RWU, while World Sailing holds conferences.  They'll fiddle while Rome burns.

 

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1 hour ago, mustang__1 said:

the guy with the strobe velcroed around the PFD was thinking safety too.... not thinking very smartly or critically... but... something. 

hehehe cracked me up to read that.

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58 minutes ago, treef said:

I am a big boat owner, crew member on another big boat, chair of my club's junior sailing program, and PRO of an annual Opti regatta.  The sheer volume of regulations, requirements, training, certifications and paper is insane. 

And here's the more insane part.  At face value, every one of those requirements is grounded in solid thinking and in good intentions.  It's not a scam, it's not some dubious for-profit scheme, it's because some well-meaning person or entity had real reason to create some new regulation or requirement.

Yet, over time,  as they are all piled on top of each other, they become this unworkable morass, a layer cake with no reason or structure, just a goopy, voluminous mess.

From a bi-annual recert of a MOM-8, to mandated anti-bullying training that US Sailing requires for those involved with junior sailing, to powerboat safe handling and prop guards, and whatnot, there are so many competing and redundant rules and regulations that the overall system is a morass.  On top of that, we sailors complain incessantly about ratings and rating systems (which is better, IRC or ORR?), boat classes (which is better, a Laser or an Aero?), and here, whether 30% of crew on a near-shore distance race should have current safety training. 

No wonder our sport is fragmenting and dying.  Who wants to be a part of this shit-show?

We can debate these issues again and again, but in the absence of leadership and vision, we will get, as usual, nowhere.

Wouldn't it be nice if US Sailing and World Sailing demonstrated some leadership and re-thought the current state of affairs?  Maybe start by creating training classes that are incremental in focus, but cumulative on a whole. That are global in nature, with the same curriculum in Sydney as in Stamford.  Training is currently done in a vacuum.  It should not be.  An overall training scheme should build from smaller boats, with in-shore risk and local resources readily available, to near-shore, to off-shore.  Then, maybe, link your World Sailing number to a database.  Log your races, your miles, and your training against your number.  And build a history of both experience and training.  Perhaps base entry requirements on that, such that inshore boats are subject to easily-achieved requirements, while offshore boats need a certain number of crew who have demonstrated experience but can take crew who do not.  And maybe we can get the newbies onto boats and interested without daunting and largely one-size-fits-all requirements, while those with experience can be challenged with more advanced training instead of doing the same thing over and over., every few years, solely to check off a box on the entry requirements list.

Or, take that idea and decide that it's stupid.  It may well be.  But someone, somewhere, needs to start with something.  Otherwise, no change from the status quo: instead of starting with a clean slate and new thinking, US Sailing will work on decorating their new offices at RWU, while World Sailing holds conferences.  They'll fiddle while Rome burns.

 

Indeed.  Where does it stop?  We make people get driver ed, licenses, insurance, etc and yet 50000 people die every year on our roads and highways... but I digress.  Where does it stop....well, right about at the place where the cost and hassle exceed the joy and personal rewards of doing the race.  You can't get people to participate and yet you want to just make it all the more difficult and expensive to do so.    

I know.  The great holy grail of SAFETY and  the other one of "FOR THE CHILDREN' are lifted up as being so obvious that no can (should) be so stupid as to argue against it.  But there is actually a point at which the safety obsession makes it all not worth it. You do actually get to a point of diminishing returns.   It seems like most folks here are closer to finding that point than ever.  The good thing is we still each to get to make THAT decision for ourselves (so far).

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1 hour ago, treef said:

I am a big boat owner, crew member on another big boat, chair of my club's junior sailing program, and PRO of an annual Opti regatta.  The sheer volume of regulations, requirements, training, certifications and paper is insane. 

And here's the more insane part.  At face value, every one of those requirements is grounded in solid thinking and in good intentions.  It's not a scam, it's not some dubious for-profit scheme, it's because some well-meaning person or entity had real reason to create some new regulation or requirement.

Yet, over time,  as they are all piled on top of each other, they become this unworkable morass, a layer cake with no reason or structure, just a goopy, voluminous mess.

From a bi-annual recert of a MOM-8, to mandated anti-bullying training that US Sailing requires for those involved with junior sailing, to powerboat safe handling and prop guards, and whatnot, there are so many competing and redundant rules and regulations that the overall system is a morass.  On top of that, we sailors complain incessantly about ratings and rating systems (which is better, IRC or ORR?), boat classes (which is better, a Laser or an Aero?), and here, whether 30% of crew on a near-shore distance race should have current safety training. 

No wonder our sport is fragmenting and dying.  Who wants to be a part of this shit-show?

We can debate these issues again and again, but in the absence of leadership and vision, we will get, as usual, nowhere.

Wouldn't it be nice if US Sailing and World Sailing demonstrated some leadership and re-thought the current state of affairs?  Maybe start by creating training classes that are incremental in focus, but cumulative on a whole. That are global in nature, with the same curriculum in Sydney as in Stamford.  Training is currently done in a vacuum.  It should not be.  An overall training scheme should build from smaller boats, with in-shore risk and local resources readily available, to near-shore, to off-shore.  Then, maybe, link your World Sailing number to a database.  Log your races, your miles, and your training against your number.  And build a history of both experience and training.  Perhaps base entry requirements on that, such that inshore boats are subject to easily-achieved requirements, while offshore boats need a certain number of crew who have demonstrated experience but can take crew who do not.  And maybe we can get the newbies onto boats and interested without daunting and largely one-size-fits-all requirements, while those with experience can be challenged with more advanced training instead of doing the same thing over and over., every few years, solely to check off a box on the entry requirements list.

Or, take that idea and decide that it's stupid.  It may well be.  But someone, somewhere, needs to start with something.  Otherwise, no change from the status quo: instead of starting with a clean slate and new thinking, US Sailing will work on decorating their new offices at RWU, while World Sailing holds conferences.  They'll fiddle while Rome burns.

 

as someone who has to deal with somewhat complex regulations everyday, it'd be nice if someone had a nicely formatted sheet with a clear breakdown of each each things that needs to be dealt with, when, etc. A lot of times the regulations are not completely onerous, but keeping track of them is. Obviously you can make your own, since especially in business shit can become far to convoluted for a one-size-fits-all, but i think in sailing the different groups (junior/dinghy/keelboat/offshore/etc) the buckets should be well enough designed that you should only need a couple of different white=-papers to handle the job. 

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13 minutes ago, Veeger said:

Indeed.  Where does it stop?  We make people get driver ed, licenses, insurance, etc and yet 50000 people die every year on our roads and highways... but I digress.  Where does it stop....well, right about at the place where the cost and hassle exceed the joy and personal rewards of doing the race.  You can't get people to participate and yet you want to just make it all the more difficult and expensive to do so.    

I know.  The great holy grail of SAFETY and  the other one of "FOR THE CHILDREN' are lifted up as being so obvious that no can (should) be so stupid as to argue against it.  But there is actually a point at which the safety obsession makes it all not worth it. You do actually get to a point of diminishing returns.   It seems like most folks here are closer to finding that point than ever.  The good thing is we still each to get to make THAT decision for ourselves (so far).

You forgot to add thoughts and prayers.

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So I have a question for those who are advocates of these additional requirements.  Why are you waiting for someone to mandate them?  Will (Do) you refuse to sail on a boat or with a skipper who has not had all of these courses?  If they are so important, it's easy for potential crew to only agree to sail with/on a boat that has fulfilled these requirements already.  Do that and no one will have to mandate it.  But if you're happy to sit around and go sailing with folks who haven't currently taken all available courses and provided all available safety equipment, then seems to me that such an approach is 'selective' at best....

Don't get me wrong.  I believe that e everyone can benefit from as much training AND experience as they can get and I'm not saying there's no value in it.  But if a skipper/owner can't get crew to sail with him if he hasn't done the course, or if he doesn't require some percentage of his crew to have had training, then this discussion would be moot...   Why are you waiting for 'somebody' else to require it?  

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Funny how my boomer generation that grew up in the "do your own thing" 60s is leaving a legacy of "don't do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign".

I remember when a group of us sea scouts wanted to enter a big name "largest international yacht race" (back when it really was big) with our 4ksb.  We had all the basic safety stuff required, we had our adult leader, we'd sailed our 4ksb everywhere between SF Bay and the Mexican border and we actually did the occasional MOB drill along the way.  Then we get the race packet, there was a requirement that at least 4 crew be age 18 or older.  Oops, we had just one.  I was the skipper of record because I had a yacht club membership courtesy of my family's membership since I was a minor (17) myself. 

So we ignored the rule, entered the race and sailed anyway.   No one died, we had a good time, not surprisingly didn't win any pickle dishes but we weren't DFL either.  I was a bit worried when I had to take the boat down to the safety inspector prior to the race, hoping he wouldn't ask me how old I was.   

Things were easier over 40 years ago.

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Seems to be a consensus on the value of SAS, as well as on the frustration of them being mandated, especially incrementally on lesser races. 

For even more basic stuff:

How many skippers make sure that enough of their crew can start the engine, use the VHF and handle the boat well enough to get the sails down if they become incapacitated? 

How many of the crew can pilot the boat home or to the nearest safe haven, never mind navigate from mid course should others become indisposed. 

Many of us are in the age/fitness ranges where stroke/heart attacks are not theoretical concepts. 

Had the the chilling experience of being up in Penobscot Bay about 15 yrs ago and hearing a woman come on Channel 16, calling the USCG, because her husband had collapsed. She described her location as "on a white boat, near an island." 

 

 

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On 5/29/2018 at 11:02 AM, AFTERGLOW said:

So, where to start.. Signed up over 2 mos ago for this race. Should have obviously read the NOR sometime before the week before but didn't. Come to find out with no further warning from the organizing Auth. that they are now requiring a "safety at Sea" course to have been taken to qualify to ENTER the race, a race that does not even sail in any "SEA" !!  Ok, so now we have four days to the race after reading this, spent a few grand on some new rags and many days of practicing to get ready and wham, we can't go because someone said we weren't "safe".. 

Now out of our crew of six people we figured out we had roughly 60+ Block Island races under our belt. No, we have never deployed a life raft, no we've never experienced a sinking.. all races made safely. So, because one person or two ?? had an issue and then sued the heck out of everyone the Storm Trysail Club decided that they should make EVERYONE take a "Safety at Sea" course offered by Storm Trysail and of course thru US Ailing for the tune of $95. and one day of training. While i applaud the effort of sailing organizers for making the sport more safe for all, sailing by itself is about as safe a sport as you can get besides maybe Golf.. We were never at sea! What's next, inspecting every boat for $200 and checking your rigging?

Ok so we drop out of a race we all had planned on and looked forward to which had great weather Btw, and I proceed to spend the weekend gardening and working on the yard which looks great! How many other people did this effect besides the 6 people on our boat? I know of several other boats personally. Why is Storm Trysail and US ailing getting involved in making people spend even more money, time and commitment on a sport that is dwindling? Why are they making this a condition to participate in the event itself? Should this not be a suggestion..? Is the skipper of the craft not responsible? This is just passing the buck and making the bucks $$ for their coffers on something that affected a couple people. 

Sad to say i may never do another Block race just because of this mentality and desire to make everyone do things because they can. How do you gain sailors for our sport, one at a time. How do you lose sailors for our sport, one boat at a time = 6 sailors in our case. Good luck next year with your race and hope that the numbers don't dive too steeply for you, but it will be safer, maybe..

The Gardiner

Bill - you are pissing into the wind - because you didn't read the NOR.  Come on buddy....................

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On 5/29/2018 at 2:05 PM, dacapo said:

who  is the OA for the BI Race?  Who runs the SAS seminars?  follow the $$$

That's an idiotic statement - STC is not a business and does not profit from the SAS seminars.  Pull your head out of your arse

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19 hours ago, Moonduster said:

The problem with legislated safety classes is that they violate two fundamentals:

  • Safety cannot be legislated
  • Common sense cannot be taught

And these fundamentals need to be considered in light of the fact that sailing is an intrinsically dangerous pursuit and that injury or death must always be on the list of anticipated outcomes.

Mandating endless safety equipment and training has not, to the best of my knowledge, had any significant effect on outcomes. Thrashing around in a pool in foul weather gear, a PFD and a life raft might be informative and amusing for some, but it is of real value to a vanishingly small number of individuals and most of those will never take such a class.

And I'd be quite comfortable explaining to anyone that golf is more dangerous than rugby and hockey and water sports, too. And we know that nearly all water sport injuries involve personal water craft and power boats, sailing accounts for approximately 5% of water sports injuries; ocean racing approximately 0%.

Just because you posted the same drivel three times doesn't make it true

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13 hours ago, TonyFromSheepsheadBay said:

a boat with no lifelines would not satisfy a different requirement

Taut single wire or high molecular weight polyethylene (HMPE) line lifelines shall be installed at a height of not less than 24 inches above the working deck for boats over 28 feet LOA and 18 inches for boats 28 feet LOA and less. These lines shall be permanently supported at intervals of not more than 7 feet. If HMPE line is used, it must have spliced terminations or terminals specifically intended for the purpose. A multipart lashing segment not to exceed 4” per end termination for the purpose of attaching lifelines to pulpits is allowed.  When HMPE is used the load-bearing portion (core) minimum diameter shall be; 1/8” (3mm) for boats 28 feet LOA and less, 5/32” (4mm) for boats over 28 feet to 43 feet LOA, and 3/16” (5mm) for boats over 43 feet LOA.

 

FFS - if you want to quote rules at least have the decency to find the CURRENT rules before cutting and pasting

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11 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

Us7070. I agree to the validity of safety courses 100%. I went to school to learn all of the things that society agrees to as a whole, which straight up experience could never teach me.

It’s just that if you have to take the course to participate in this individual event, how long is it going to be before our local regattas require the same? I would think that safety courses for youth fleets would be good, just like the driver safety classes they have to take. 

Plus, would one course cover me for BIRW, Newport to Bermuda or Marion to Bermuda? Days and dollars spent redundantly would take their toll on participants pretty quickly in my opinion.

And I am amazed that Tonyfromsheepshead sounds like an intelligent sailor! I thought he was just here for the ball busting!!! 

 

 

One course would cover you for most any racing globally for 5 years - it really is not that onerous

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