Ishmael

Kicking off the trade wars

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Wilbur Ross announced that tariffs on steel and aluminum will be imposed on Canada, Mexico, and the EU as of midnight. Way to treat your allies, Drumpf.

The idiot in the White House has apparently also vowed to rid the USA of German cars.

This is not going to end well for anybody.

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17 minutes ago, Fakenews said:

EU promises to retaliate.

wilbur Ross appeared on CNBC asndwas obnoxiously disssmissive of any concerns about this new tax on consumers.  I swear that old goat is going senile.

I think both he and Trump have lost a lot of their wits. Neither of them have any semblance of concern for the working American. Since the softwood lumber tariffs were introduced, lumber prices in the US have gone through the roof. http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trump-steel-deadline-1.4685242

Only hurts the consumer and slows the economy.

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46 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Wilbur Ross announced that tariffs on steel and aluminum will be imposed on Canada, Mexico, and the EU as of midnight.

Too much overhead for the US to compete with Canada or the EU in the US market? Wow.

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1 hour ago, Mickey Rat said:

Too much overhead for the US to compete with Canada or the EU in the US market? Wow.

Many of the steel-consuming industries are saying that the prices have already gone up, and domestic production can't meet demand now. This will prove yet another costly failure under Trump's maladministration and the American consumers are the ones who will pay.

" US steel prices have risen 40% since Jan. 1 and are now nearly 50% higher than in Europe or China. And today the volume of metals imports subject to tariffs is being doubled. The impact on manufacturing and construction will be very substantial."

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Reagan/Bush had the S&L meltdown, Clinton cleaned it up.

Bush had the mortgage meltdown, Obama cleaned it up.

Trump will start a trade war which we all know leads to recession. Who will clean it up?

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The next Democrat POTUS.

It has always been thus.

Even though the right wingers are the smart ones with the money.

 

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3 hours ago, Ishmael said:

The idiot in the White House has apparently also vowed to rid the USA of German cars.

Does that include the BMW's built in South Carolina.

If it wan't so serious this idiot would be funny.

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7 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Does that include the BMW's built in South Carolina.

If it wan't so serious this idiot would be funny.

Either he does not know about the BMW plant in SC or he remembers something about a thing called the Civil War where SC seceded from the US.

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2 hours ago, Mickey Rat said:

Too much overhead for the US to compete with Canada or the EU in the US market? Wow.

But those countries have universal health  care!!

but those countries spend more money on public education!!

but those countries spend more on public transportation !!

 

But those countries have a higher minimum wage!!!

 

but those countries have better sailing teams!!

 

 

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30 minutes ago, jerseyguy said:

Either he does not know about the BMW plant in SC or he remembers something about a thing called the Civil War where SC seceded from the US.

In Trumps case I'd always go with ignorance over memories.

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/trump-imposes-steel-and-aluminum-tariffs-on-the-european-union-canada-and-mexico/2018/05/31/891bb452-64d3-11e8-a69c-b944de66d9e7_story.html

“This is dumb. Europe, Canada, and Mexico are not China, and you don’t treat allies the same way you treat opponents,” said Sen. Ben Sasse (R-Neb.). “We’ve been down this road before—blanket protectionism is a big part of why America had a Great Depression. ‘Make America Great Again’ shouldn’t mean ‘Make America 1929 Again.”

 

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41 minutes ago, jerseyguy said:

Either he does not know about the BMW plant in SC or he remembers something about a thing called the Civil War where SC seceded from the US.

If you think those are imported cars subject to import duties you are the one confused about South Carolina.  His explanation seems more rational than yours.

FRANKFURT/BERLIN (Reuters) - U.S President-elect Donald Trump warned German car companies he would impose a border tax of 35 percent on vehicles imported to the U.S. market, a plan that drew sharp rebukes from Berlin and hit the automakers’ shares.

In an interview with German newspaper Bild, published on Monday, Trump criticized German carmakers such as BMW (BMWG.DE), Daimler (DAIGn.DE) and Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE) for failing to produce more cars on U.S. soil.

“If you want to build cars in the world, then I wish you all the best. You can build cars for the United States, but for every car that comes to the USA, you will pay 35 percent tax,” Trump said in remarks translated into German.

I would tell BMW that if you are building a factory in Mexico and plan to sell cars to the USA, without a 35 percent tax, then you can forget that,” Trump said.

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BMW is actually the biggest US exporter of cars.  https://www.bmwusfactory.com/bmw_articles/bmw-manufacturing-continues-as-largest-u-s-automotive-exporter/

Others include VW in Chattanooga TN, Hyundai in Alabama, Kia in Georgia, Toyota in Texas and Indiana and others.

Those built in the US won't be subject to the tariff.  Expanding those plants to avoid it will mean jobs in the US and sales.

 

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5 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

If you think those are imported cars subject to import duties you are the one confused about South Carolina.  His explanation seems more rational than yours.

The statement was "eliminate German cars from the USA".

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9 minutes ago, Sean said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/trump-imposes-steel-and-aluminum-tariffs-on-the-european-union-canada-and-mexico/2018/05/31/891bb452-64d3-11e8-a69c-b944de66d9e7_story.html

“This is dumb. Europe, Canada, and Mexico are not China, and you don’t treat allies the same way you treat opponents,” said Sen. Ben Sasse (R-Neb.). “We’ve been down this road before—blanket protectionism is a big part of why America had a Great Depression. ‘Make America Great Again’ shouldn’t mean ‘Make America 1929 Again.”

 

Surprisingly intelligent and knowledgeable for a Republican.

Lets see how he votes.

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12 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Surprisingly intelligent and knowledgeable for a Republican.

Lets see how he votes.

One of the front runners for a republican challenger in 2020

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22 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

BMW is actually the biggest US exporter of cars.  https://www.bmwusfactory.com/bmw_articles/bmw-manufacturing-continues-as-largest-u-s-automotive-exporter/

Others include VW in Chattanooga TN, Hyundai in Alabama, Kia in Georgia, Toyota in Texas and Indiana and others.

Those built in the US won't be subject to the tariff.  Expanding those plants to avoid it will mean jobs in the US and sales.

 

Those producers are going to be paying a lot more for their steel, and these stupid tariffs are destroying global supply chains. Trump is an idiot.

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2 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Those producers are going to be paying a lot more for their steel, and these stupid tariffs are destroying global supply chains. Trump is an idiot.

And Germany and Canada might just slap a hefty tariff on those US built BMWs and Benzes. 

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5 minutes ago, jerseyguy said:

And Germany and Canada might just slap a hefty tariff on those US built BMWs and Benzes. 

The Mexican government said it would levy import taxes on U.S. exports of pork bellies, apples, cranberries, grapes, certain cheeses, and various types of steel. And Canada levied a surtax on $16.6 billion of American steel, aluminum and other products, as Prime Minister Justin Trudeau pronounced Trump’s claim to be protecting national security an “affront” to Canadians who fought alongside American GIs from World War II to Afghanistan.

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11 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Those producers are going to be paying a lot more for their steel, and these stupid tariffs are destroying global supply chains. Trump is an idiot.

Or, they can buy steel from the US.

 

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2 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Many of the steel-consuming industries are saying that the prices have already gone up, and domestic production can't meet demand now. This will prove yet another costly failure under Trump's maladministration and the American consumers are the ones who will pay.

" US steel prices have risen 40% since Jan. 1 and are now nearly 50% higher than in Europe or China. And today the volume of metals imports subject to tariffs is being doubled. The impact on manufacturing and construction will be very substantial."

 

5 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Or, they can buy steel from the US.

 

Did you miss my post above? Domestic production can't meet demand now.

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14 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Those producers are going to be paying a lot more for their steel, and these stupid tariffs are destroying global supply chains. Trump is an idiot.

That demeans idiots.

The language actually needs some new words to describe Trump and his antics.

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3 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Or, they can buy steel from the US.

I guess you missed this bit;

Those producers are going to be paying a lot more for their steel,

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"A report that U.S. President Donald Trump has threatened to pursue German carmakers until there are no Mercedes-Benz rolling down New York's Fifth Avenue dented shares in the luxury car manufacturers on Thursday.

An excerpt from German magazine Wirtschaftswoche's article, which cited several unnamed European and U.S. diplomats but did not include any direct quotes, could not be independently verified, while a U.S. Embassy spokesman in Berlin referred questions to Washington.

The news and current affairs magazine said Trump had told French President Emmanuel Macron in April that he aimed to push German carmakers out of the United States altogether. Macron's administration in Paris declined to comment on the report.

The Trump administration last week opened a so-called Section 232 trade investigation into vehicle imports, which could result in a 25 percent tariff on cars on the same "national security" grounds Washington used to impose metals duties in March.

This could destroy exports by German carmakers, which control 90 percent of the U.S. premium market and are the biggest European Union exporters of cars to the United States.

BMW owns Rolls-Royce, while Daimler has Mercedes-Benz, and Volkswagen controls Bentley, Bugatti, Porsche and Audi.

Daimler, BMW and Audi declined comment. Porsche was not immediately available for comment.

BMW shares were trading 0.5 percent lower at 0939 GMT, while Daimler and VW's shares were down 1 percent and 1.6 percent respectively, underperforming Germany's blue-chip DAX.

Trump has railed against German carmakers before. And in early 2017, in an interview with German newspaper Bild, he said he would impose 35 percent tariffs on imported cars.

At the time, the president called Germany a great car producer but said that the business relationship with the United States was an unfair one-way street.

Germany's auto industry association VDA says its members exported 657,000 vehicles to North America last year, with total exports of vehicle components, cars, engines, as well as second-hand vehicles totaling 31.2 billion euros in 2016.

Imports from the United States to Germany amounted to 7.4 billion euros, meaning a trade deficit of 23.8 billion euros the VDA's latest available figures show.

However, German brands also have huge factories in the United States, where they built 804,000 cars last year, VDA said, providing jobs for U.S. workers.

Berlin has reacted angrily to the U.S. vehicle imports investigation, but the head of Germany's BDI industry association Dieter Kempf on Thursday called for prudence in the growing trade tensions between the EU and the United States.

If the EU imposes countermeasures, it must expect Trump to come up with further measures, he told Deutschlandfunk radio.

EU passenger car imports from the United States were worth 6.2 billion euros ($7.3 billion) last year, while the bloc's U.S. exports topped 37 billion euros, according to Brussels-based industry association ACEA.

The threats made to the car sector are part of a bigger trade dispute with the United States.

Trump's commerce secretary, Wilbur Ross, on Thursday was expected to announce that the U.S. would end an EU exemption from tariffs on U.S. imports of steel and aluminum, a move Germany has warned could lead to a trade war.

Late on Wednesday, talks to avoid a transatlantic trade war showed no sign of a breakthrough.

German Finance Minister Olaf Scholz told Reuters there were no signs of a de-escalation and that the EU response to any tariffs must be "clear and strong and smart."

Trump's auto tariff is a test of Franco-German solidarity since French carmakers have hardly any U.S. sales, while German carmakers generate up to 30 percent of global sales there.

A 25 percent tariff would destroy the business case for German carmakers to export to the United States, and mean a 4.5 billion euro hit for Germany's premium manufacturers, analysts at Evercore ISI said in a note last week.

Audi and Porsche are seen to be particularly vulnerable because they do not have U.S. factories, while Mercedes-Benz and BMW have large established plants which could more easily allow them to expand local production capacity if imports were curtailed."

https://www.autoblog.com/2018/05/31/trump-wipe-german-cars-off-us-stre/

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The only explanation that makes any sense is that the blue collar Trump voters were becoming disillusioned with Cheetolini, and he was looking for a way to shore that support back up.

of course, this will destroy blue collar jobs.

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"... Trump’s style of protectionism will produce more displaced workers, in the industries that are harmed as the collateral damage in his trade wars. This will happen in at least two ways. First, tariffs are a tax that boosts the price of the protected product, in this case steel and aluminum. So domestic producers earn more money and might hire more workers. But other companies that purchase those products, such as producers of cars, appliances and beverages, now have to pay more, and their products become more expensive, which means sales could suffer. That kills profits and jobs.

More damage comes from retaliatory tariffs imposed by other countries, which raises the prices of American exports and reduces sales. Some US farmers and business owners have already been complaining about reduced access to Chinese markets, after tit-for-tat protectionist measures by both countries. Trump’s Commerce Secretary, Wilbur Ross, said in April that Americans need to “absorb a little bit of pain” to get better trade deals that will help the US economy. Well, the pain is arriving. What Americans really need to do is tolerate the pain longer than our trade-war foes, hoping they blink first.

 

The stock market has been flat this year, which is odd given that the Trump tax cuts signed in 2017 have sent corporate profits soaring. Business leaders cite Trump-style protectionism as one of their top concerns, and market selloffs have typically followed Trump’s tariff announcements this year. Many investors view Trump’s tariffs as temporary cudgels meant to establish leverage he can use for negotiating better trade deals, but they are starting to look more like long-term policies that could weigh down markets indefinitely.

There’s also been blowback to Trump’s protectionism in farm states crucial to the outcome of the US midterm elections, including Iowa, Kansas, Missouri and North Dakota, as farmers discover new barriers to selling their products overseas. Does Trump care? Is there a master plan for ironing this all out by November? Increasingly, it seems like there is not. 70s Man wants his tariffs, and more US steel on the street. The rest of the economy can wait."

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trumps-fatal-flaw-becoming-dangerous-even-173821635.html

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1 minute ago, Saorsa said:

Or, they can buy steel from the US.

 

Do you not get that the domestic demand is more than the domestic supply and 50% more expensive? You expect steel plants to pop up magically to fill in the gap? How many years will the tariffs last? When such economic decisions are made for political reasons and soon may be watered down with exemptions or overturned in a couple of years not many companies are going to make long term investments. They will wait to see how it plays out meanwhile everyone pays a higher price and some like the farmers suffer much more. 

 Countries hit are going to retaliate even though it might be better to just take the blow, Trumps unpopularity around the world makes it hard to not to.

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6 minutes ago, VhmSays said:

Do you not get that the domestic demand is more than the domestic supply and 50% more expensive? You expect steel plants to pop up magically to fill in the gap? How many years will the tariffs last? When such economic decisions are made for political reasons and soon may be watered down with exemptions or overturned in a couple of years not many companies are going to make long term investments. They will wait to see how it plays out meanwhile everyone pays a higher price and some like the farmers suffer much more. 

 Countries hit are going to retaliate even though it might be better to just take the blow, Trumps unpopularity around the world makes it hard to not to.

But the base will like it. For a while. 

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NPR had a piece on increase cost of aluminum due to tariffs increasing the cost of cheap beer.....this is when it will get real for Trump's base!

 

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Disclaimer.....although I drink cheap  beer, in aluminum cans (they don't break on the boat), I never supported Trump.

 

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38 minutes ago, bridhb said:

Disclaimer.....although I drink cheap  beer, in aluminum cans (they don't break on the boat), I never supported Trump.

 

Well lucky you. I also don't drink craft beer. But I did the nasty for Trump. I thought a shakeup would be good for the country. Mea Fucking Culpa.

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Canada retaliates: http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trump-steel-deadline-1.4685242

"Trudeau called the Trump administration's national security argument "inconceivable" and called the tariffs "an affront to the Canadians who died" alongside Americans in battle.

"We will continue to make arguments based on logic and common sense and hope that eventually they will prevail against an administration that doesn't always align itself around those principles," said Trudeau."

The gloves are off.

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55 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

 I did the nasty for Trump. I thought a shakeup would be good for the country. Mea Fucking Culpa.

Well, you got the shakeup........

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Can Trump levy these tariffs by E.O. or does congress have to do it?

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When the WTO decides that Trump's tariffs are (What?  unreasonable? illegal? stupid?) What next?

 The cost of Canadian softwood lumber is already so high that builders are using substandard (IMHOP) manufactured products to make the bottom line.....

Facts are facts.

You can't fuck your neighbor, and not expect to get fucked back.

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46 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Can Trump levy these tariffs by E.O. or does congress have to do it?

Apparently he can do it by himself, and congress may not be able to stop it. There's a lot of anguish coming from the Repugnicans right now, they are seeing major job losses and a serious economic downturn on the horizon if this actually happens. At least the heat is off Trump about porn stars and pregnant playmates for the moment. The shit is hitting the fan big time, there is worldwide concern. This is not just America imploding. 

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-44324565

What are others saying?

UK International Trade Secretary Liam Fox said the 25% levy on steel was "patently absurd". He branded the Trump administration's move as "just protectionism", adding: "It would be a great pity if we ended up in a tit-for-tat trade dispute with our closest allies."

Mexican Foreign Minister Luis Videgaray said his country would also impose duties: "Mexico's position on trade, or on immigration, or on security, or on whatever area of co-operation with the United States, will not vary, not because of offensive rhetoric nor unjustified unilateral measures like this type. We will continue to defend the interests of Mexico, just as we have done until now."

Opposition to the tariffs was joined by congressional Republicans. "I disagree with this decision," House Speaker Paul Ryan, the most influential Republican in Congress, said in a statement.

"Today's action targets America's allies when we should be working with them to address the unfair trading practices of countries like China," he said.

And House Ways and Means Committee chairman Kevin Brady said: "These tariffs are hitting the wrong target." Europe, Mexico and Canada "are not the problem - China is", he added.

 

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Perrin Beatty, president of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce and a former Mulroney cabinet minister at the time of the original Canada-U.S. free trade deal, expressed surprise at the sunset-clause tactic.

"That is not the basis on which mature adults negotiate," Beatty said.

"For someone who prides himself as a negotiator, anybody who does business on the basis of, 'One side can only win if the other side loses' usually isn't in business for very long."

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6 hours ago, Ishmael said:

"A report that U.S. President Donald Trump has threatened to pursue German carmakers until there are no Mercedes-Benz rolling down New York's Fifth Avenue dented shares in the luxury car manufacturers on Thursday.

An excerpt from German magazine Wirtschaftswoche's article, which cited several unnamed European and U.S. diplomats but did not include any direct quotes, could not be independently verified, while a U.S. Embassy spokesman in Berlin referred questions to Washington.

The news and current affairs magazine said Trump had told French President Emmanuel Macron in April that he aimed to push German carmakers out of the United States altogether. Macron's administration in Paris declined to comment on the report.

The Trump administration last week opened a so-called Section 232 trade investigation into vehicle imports, which could result in a 25 percent tariff on cars on the same "national security" grounds Washington used to impose metals duties in March.

This could destroy exports by German carmakers, which control 90 percent of the U.S. premium market and are the biggest European Union exporters of cars to the United States.

BMW owns Rolls-Royce, while Daimler has Mercedes-Benz, and Volkswagen controls Bentley, Bugatti, Porsche and Audi.

Daimler, BMW and Audi declined comment. Porsche was not immediately available for comment.

BMW shares were trading 0.5 percent lower at 0939 GMT, while Daimler and VW's shares were down 1 percent and 1.6 percent respectively, underperforming Germany's blue-chip DAX.

Trump has railed against German carmakers before. And in early 2017, in an interview with German newspaper Bild, he said he would impose 35 percent tariffs on imported cars.

At the time, the president called Germany a great car producer but said that the business relationship with the United States was an unfair one-way street.

Germany's auto industry association VDA says its members exported 657,000 vehicles to North America last year, with total exports of vehicle components, cars, engines, as well as second-hand vehicles totaling 31.2 billion euros in 2016.

Imports from the United States to Germany amounted to 7.4 billion euros, meaning a trade deficit of 23.8 billion euros the VDA's latest available figures show.

However, German brands also have huge factories in the United States, where they built 804,000 cars last year, VDA said, providing jobs for U.S. workers.

Berlin has reacted angrily to the U.S. vehicle imports investigation, but the head of Germany's BDI industry association Dieter Kempf on Thursday called for prudence in the growing trade tensions between the EU and the United States.

If the EU imposes countermeasures, it must expect Trump to come up with further measures, he told Deutschlandfunk radio.

EU passenger car imports from the United States were worth 6.2 billion euros ($7.3 billion) last year, while the bloc's U.S. exports topped 37 billion euros, according to Brussels-based industry association ACEA.

The threats made to the car sector are part of a bigger trade dispute with the United States.

Trump's commerce secretary, Wilbur Ross, on Thursday was expected to announce that the U.S. would end an EU exemption from tariffs on U.S. imports of steel and aluminum, a move Germany has warned could lead to a trade war.

Late on Wednesday, talks to avoid a transatlantic trade war showed no sign of a breakthrough.

German Finance Minister Olaf Scholz told Reuters there were no signs of a de-escalation and that the EU response to any tariffs must be "clear and strong and smart."

Trump's auto tariff is a test of Franco-German solidarity since French carmakers have hardly any U.S. sales, while German carmakers generate up to 30 percent of global sales there.

A 25 percent tariff would destroy the business case for German carmakers to export to the United States, and mean a 4.5 billion euro hit for Germany's premium manufacturers, analysts at Evercore ISI said in a note last week.

Audi and Porsche are seen to be particularly vulnerable because they do not have U.S. factories, while Mercedes-Benz and BMW have large established plants which could more easily allow them to expand local production capacity if imports were curtailed."

https://www.autoblog.com/2018/05/31/trump-wipe-german-cars-off-us-stre/

No more German cars?!

shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit * 10^21

that tears it.

I had plans & a German SUV and hard top convertible that will need parts.

it’s getting personal.  

 

 

 

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More rumblings:

Bretton Woods. The Marshall Plan. GATT. NATO. In the late 1940s, the United States forged a military and economic alliance with its European, Canadian and Pacific allies that we call the West, which brought peace and prosperity such as the world had never seen.

For the past seven decades, there has been no major war between great powers. Over those decades, extreme poverty fell from three-quarters of the world’s population to less than a tenth, and global life expectancy increased from 48 years to 70 years.

But Donald Trump doesn’t like the Western alliance − for reasons that we must leave to future historians − and Thursday, he took a big step toward wrecking it by imposing tariffs on steel and aluminum imports.

 

This particular blow is serious because “it is directed, not just at Canada and Mexico but also at the European Union, so that’s your broad Western alliance,” said Rohinton Medhora, president of the Centre for International Governance Innovation, based in Waterloo. But it is only the latest in a series of blows to that alliance, he adds.

Withdrawing the United States from the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade agreement and U.S.-EU trade talks; withdrawing from the Paris accord on climate change; withdrawing from the treaty to limit Iran’s development of nuclear weapons; moving the American embassy to Jerusalem.

 

“It’s a train that keeps chugging along, to the detriment of the Western world,” he said.

By imposing punishing tariffs on steel and aluminum against Canada and the European Union, the President is further undermining the one thing that holds the West together: trust in U.S. leadership.

How important was that trust? Consider: The European Union announced Thursday it would file a complaint with the World Trade Organization over the U.S. tariffs. The European Union was forged out of the earlier European Coal and Steel Community and the European Economic Community, which ended a millennium of intra-European war and which was only possible because U.S. military power and American economic aid created the safe space that allowed Europe to heal and then flourish after the Second World War.

The WTO is the successor to the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade which, along with the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, grew out of the 1944 Bretton Woods agreement in which the United States and Britain convinced the allied countries to lower tariffs and promote global trade, based on the U.S. dollar as the world reserve currency.

In other words, the United States’ allies are using tools that are integral to the U.S.-led Western alliance to fight against American actions aimed at undermining that alliance.

 

There could be worse to come. The Trump administration is examining whether automobile imports should be added to steel and aluminum as subject to tariffs on the grounds of national security − grounds that Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland Thursday described as “absurd.” Such a decision would be even more disruptive.

Marianne Schneider-Petsinger, a geoeconomics fellow at the British think tank Chatham House, believes the dispute over steel and aluminum tariffs leaves the WTO “between a rock and a hard place.”

If the WTO sides with the Americans, she observes, then any country could impose tariffs against anyone on the grounds of national security. If it sides with the Europeans, who are being joined by the Canadians, then Mr. Trump may simply pull the United States out of the WTO. “It’s not a good scenario in either case,” she says.

Earlier this week, U.S. Trade Secretary Wilbur Ross told European officials that the WTO is too slow and rigid. And the administration is undermining the organization by blocking key appointments.

Can the West survive Mr. Trump? In the short term, Mr. Medhora believes it can.

“Two more years of this we can ride out,” he says. Even six more years − to the end of a second Trump administration − may be survivable.

 

“But if this becomes a pattern in U.S. public policy after him, then the Western alliance as we know it, and the institutions that uphold it, are in way more trouble than we think,” he believes.

We are still waiting to hear from special counsel Robert Mueller whether Russian President Vladimir Putin’s government actively colluded with people in the Trump campaign to make him president.

If he did, he got his money’s worth

 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-donald-trump-and-his-assault-on-the-west/

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15 minutes ago, Amati said:

No more German cars?!

shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit * 10^21

that tears it.

I had plans & a German SUV and hard top convertible that will need parts.

it’s getting personal.  

 

 

 

Yer SO selfish.  I've got a damn VW pickup engine in my boat!

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13 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

More rumblings:

Bretton Woods. The Marshall Plan. GATT. NATO. In the late 1940s, the United States forged a military and economic alliance with its European, Canadian and Pacific allies that we call the West, which brought peace and prosperity such as the world had never seen.

For the past seven decades, there has been no major war between great powers. Over those decades, extreme poverty fell from three-quarters of the world’s population to less than a tenth, and global life expectancy increased from 48 years to 70 years.

But Donald Trump doesn’t like the Western alliance − for reasons that we must leave to future historians − and Thursday, he took a big step toward wrecking it by imposing tariffs on steel and aluminum imports.

 

This particular blow is serious because “it is directed, not just at Canada and Mexico but also at the European Union, so that’s your broad Western alliance,” said Rohinton Medhora, president of the Centre for International Governance Innovation, based in Waterloo. But it is only the latest in a series of blows to that alliance, he adds.

Withdrawing the United States from the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade agreement and U.S.-EU trade talks; withdrawing from the Paris accord on climate change; withdrawing from the treaty to limit Iran’s development of nuclear weapons; moving the American embassy to Jerusalem.

 

“It’s a train that keeps chugging along, to the detriment of the Western world,” he said.

By imposing punishing tariffs on steel and aluminum against Canada and the European Union, the President is further undermining the one thing that holds the West together: trust in U.S. leadership.

How important was that trust? Consider: The European Union announced Thursday it would file a complaint with the World Trade Organization over the U.S. tariffs. The European Union was forged out of the earlier European Coal and Steel Community and the European Economic Community, which ended a millennium of intra-European war and which was only possible because U.S. military power and American economic aid created the safe space that allowed Europe to heal and then flourish after the Second World War.

The WTO is the successor to the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade which, along with the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, grew out of the 1944 Bretton Woods agreement in which the United States and Britain convinced the allied countries to lower tariffs and promote global trade, based on the U.S. dollar as the world reserve currency.

In other words, the United States’ allies are using tools that are integral to the U.S.-led Western alliance to fight against American actions aimed at undermining that alliance.

 

There could be worse to come. The Trump administration is examining whether automobile imports should be added to steel and aluminum as subject to tariffs on the grounds of national security − grounds that Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland Thursday described as “absurd.” Such a decision would be even more disruptive.

Marianne Schneider-Petsinger, a geoeconomics fellow at the British think tank Chatham House, believes the dispute over steel and aluminum tariffs leaves the WTO “between a rock and a hard place.”

If the WTO sides with the Americans, she observes, then any country could impose tariffs against anyone on the grounds of national security. If it sides with the Europeans, who are being joined by the Canadians, then Mr. Trump may simply pull the United States out of the WTO. “It’s not a good scenario in either case,” she says.

Earlier this week, U.S. Trade Secretary Wilbur Ross told European officials that the WTO is too slow and rigid. And the administration is undermining the organization by blocking key appointments.

Can the West survive Mr. Trump? In the short term, Mr. Medhora believes it can.

“Two more years of this we can ride out,” he says. Even six more years − to the end of a second Trump administration − may be survivable.

 

“But if this becomes a pattern in U.S. public policy after him, then the Western alliance as we know it, and the institutions that uphold it, are in way more trouble than we think,” he believes.

We are still waiting to hear from special counsel Robert Mueller whether Russian President Vladimir Putin’s government actively colluded with people in the Trump campaign to make him president.

If he did, he got his money’s worth

 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-donald-trump-and-his-assault-on-the-west/

Destroying the West. Yeah, pretty much Putin's wet dream.

 

Who knew the Party that brought us the end of the Soviet Union would bring us the end of the West too?

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2 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Yer SO selfish.

I’m so weak.....

but really, a Camaro?

 

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2 minutes ago, Amati said:

I’m so weak.....

but really, a Camaro?

 

can't do it....

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12 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Wilbur Ross announced that tariffs on steel and aluminum will be imposed on Canada, Mexico, and the EU as of midnight. Way to treat your allies, Drumpf.

The idiot in the White House has apparently also vowed to rid the USA of German cars.

This is not going to end well for anybody.

I wonder if that idiot realizes that many of those German cars are made in the USA, by American workers.  No, I am sure he doesn't know that.  He doesn't know anything about running a shit hole real estate business let alone running a country.

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5 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

can't do it....

First Mercedes, and then Yanmar......

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17 minutes ago, Amati said:

No more German cars?!

shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit * 10^21

that tears it.

I had plans & a German SUV and hard top convertible that will need parts.

it’s getting personal.  

 

 

 

After 40 or so years of driving German cars (5 Porsches and 4 Audis) I decided to drive American a few years ago. Seriously considering to going back to German-built German cars just to piss off idiots that are running this asylum.  

For the life of me I simply cannot see how my choice in automobiles affects national security.

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2 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

I wonder if that idiot realizes that many of those German cars are made in the USA, by American workers.  No, I am sure he doesn't know that.  He doesn't know anything about running a shit hole real estate business let alone running a country.

They are traitors.  So sayeth Trump.  

God.  Has anybody here driven the new Escalade?  

“No more crap cars”

Right-

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Perhaps we have been underestimating Trump all along, he might have a secret plan.  First we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin...

Leonard Cohen wrote it but I like Joe Cocker's version better.

 

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1 minute ago, Ed Lada said:

Perhaps we have been underestimating Trump all along, he might have a secret plan.  First we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin...

Leonard Cohen wrote it but I like Joe Cocker's version better.

 

I like Leonard Cohen but on this one got to agree.

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When the Wall Street Journal editorializes about how clueless a republican resident of the White House is regarding tariffs, along with all our former allies and friends....well then...Just who the fuck is the resident doing this for?  

Well, who provides cash loans to shady real estate deals?  Who hands out copyrights in the largest biggest markets in the world?

Follow the fucking money and LOCK HIM UP!

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No time to worry about allies, China needs help

"Too many jobs in China lost. Commerce Department has been instructed to get it done!"

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2 minutes ago, VhmSays said:

 

No time to worry about allies, China needs help

"Too many jobs in China lost. Commerce Department has been instructed to get it done!"

Trump’s progression resembles a 5th degree regression line- like he’s one of the 5 people in the world who would actually understand what that is.  

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34 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

I wonder if that idiot realizes that many of those German cars are made in the USA, by American workers.  No, I am sure he doesn't know that.  He doesn't know anything about running a shit hole real estate business let alone running a country.

He is depending on the patriotism of those folks to take the economic hit for the rest of us.  

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18 minutes ago, Amati said:
53 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

I wonder if that idiot realizes that many of those German cars are made in the USA, by American workers.  No, I am sure he doesn't know that.  He doesn't know anything about running a shit hole real estate business let alone running a country.

He is depending on the patriotism of those folks to take the economic hit for the rest of us.  

Non-imports are not affected as in ASEAN countries. I'm not saying I agree but I do think that's the point. :rolleyes: 

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1 minute ago, Mickey Rat said:

Non-imports are not affected as in ASEAN countries. I'm not saying I agree but I do think that's the point. :rolleyes: 

Why do republicans like recessions so much?

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2 minutes ago, Mickey Rat said:

Is there a difference? 

Try again.

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9 minutes ago, Mickey Rat said:

 

Smartest thing you ever wrote.

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1 hour ago, Ed Lada said:

Perhaps we have been underestimating Trump all along, he might have a secret plan.  First we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin...

It's a lot more likely that he's the James Gregory character in the Manchurian Candidate.

Except no one shot this idiot before he got elected.

Where the fuck was Laurence Harvey when he was needed.

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Among the Canadian counter-tariffs announced by Trudeau yesterday was one on sailboats. All of a sudden it makes more sense for Canadians to buy a Hanse than a Catalina. That is a good way to help the US economy, Trump. We know he is an ignorant dummy but surely someone around him must know how things work. Tit-for-tat tariffs on US steel were also announced. The US sells more steel to Canada than the reverse. It is easy to see that Canada will increase economic integration with Europe (the new free trade agreement with the EU came into effect last fall) and China and reduce that with the US. Also the Canadian government is in the early stages of negotiating a free trade agreement with China. Trump seems insistent on reducing the dominance of the US in the world economy. China and the EU will be happy to pick up the slack. Trump will be replaced sooner rather than later and the next POTUS, some Dem yet to be determined, will work to repair the damage but opportunities and economic momentum for the US will have been lost.

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The USA is abandoning free trade. To the rest of the world, I'd say: don't follow us down this road.

Making everything more expensive here and rewarding those with the connections to evade the tariffs is NOT going to make us more prosperous. And it won't help you either.

Trade wars are a really stupid form of gun fight where everyone aims at his own feet. You win by not participating.

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15 hours ago, Ishmael said:

 

Did you miss my post above? Domestic production can't meet demand now.

prolly ignored that little part...

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8 minutes ago, dacapo said:

prolly ignored that little part...

Nope, not ignored but that fact doesn't mean much in reality.  Production won't stop.  it's just a tax the consumer will pay.  One estimate I've seen is about $300 per vehicle.

Using the BMW/Mexico example cited simplistically, BMW gets to make a decision based on raw material costs vs. production costs. Whichever choice they make ends up as part of unit cost to the dealer.  They are already making the choice to use less steel and aluminum in current designs so that is one possible outcome.

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A lot of farmers are already having trouble hiring migrant labor to pick their crops. When China and the EU lay tariffs on agricultural products from the US, maybe, just maybe the Trump base will finally see the light.

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24 minutes ago, Remodel said:

A lot of farmers are already having trouble hiring migrant labor to pick their crops. When China and the EU lay tariffs on agricultural products from the US, maybe, just maybe the Trump base will finally see the light.

A few Republican voters will recognize the error of The Great White Dope.  Trump's base, however, are too stupid to see much of anything. 

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28 minutes ago, Remodel said:

A lot of farmers are already having trouble hiring migrant labor to pick their crops. When China and the EU lay tariffs on agricultural products from the US, maybe, just maybe the Trump base will finally see the light.

Dubious- Trump has asked farmers to take the hit to show their patriotism.  

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14 minutes ago, RKoch said:

Squirrel!

Fearless leader!  Your brilliance blinds us!

together now, page 5,  from the Trump Hymnal,

(organ :) intro....)

oh blinding light

oh light that blinds,

watch out for me,

i cannot see.

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1 hour ago, Saorsa said:

Nope, not ignored but that fact doesn't mean much in reality.  Production won't stop.  it's just a tax the consumer will pay.  One estimate I've seen is about $300 per vehicle.

Using the BMW/Mexico example cited simplistically, BMW gets to make a decision based on raw material costs vs. production costs. Whichever choice they make ends up as part of unit cost to the dealer.  They are already making the choice to use less steel and aluminum in current designs so that is one possible outcome.

Wonder what will happen to the local BMW carbon fiber plant?  

And all those Trump voters who work there?

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1 minute ago, Amati said:

Wonder what will happen to the local BMW carbon fiber plant?  

And all those Trump voters who work there?

Considering that BMW is our largest auto exporter I would guess nothing.

We really need a way to spin CO2 into carbon fiber for sequestration purposes.  Something the size of (and replacing) a catalytic converter with a take-up spool, near or inside the gas filler cover, that would unspool into a recycle bin as you filled up at the gas pump would be neat.

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1 hour ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

The USA is abandoning free trade. To the rest of the world, I'd say: don't follow us down this road.

Making everything more expensive here and rewarding those with the connections to evade the tariffs is NOT going to make us more prosperous. And it won't help you either.

Trade wars are a really stupid form of gun fight where everyone aims at his own feet. You win by not participating.

Welcome to the dark side!  We have cookies!

(I’m quoting)

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US Markets don't seem to be as worried about the "tariffs" as all the experts on this thread.  

Currently the EU charges 10% on imported US cars  The US charges 2.5% on cars imported from the EU   Tell me how this is free trade?   http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2015/january/tradoc_152998.1 Trade in goods and customs tariffs.pdf

for cars:

o EU duty on imports from the US is 10%

o US duty on imports from the EU is only 2.5%

 

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16 minutes ago, TMSAIL said:

US Markets don't seem to be as worried about the "tariffs" as all the experts on this thread.  

Currently the EU charges 10% on imported US cars  The US charges 2.5% on cars imported from the EU   Tell me how this is free trade?   http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2015/january/tradoc_152998.1 Trade in goods and customs tariffs.pdf

for cars:

o EU duty on imports from the US is 10%

o US duty on imports from the EU is only 2.5%

 

OK, how about this. If there is an unfairness you tackle it. Say to the Europeans that in six months the US car tariff will be the same as the EU one - they can choose 2.5%, 10% or some other figure. If China is stealing IP you put a 10,000% tariff on any product that is based on IP theft. You do this item-by-item to level the playing field. This sort of subtle, measured approach of course is far beyond Trump's comprehension so he picks some industries and percentages out of the air and pisses everyone off.

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20 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

OK, how about this. If there is an unfairness you tackle it. Say to the Europeans that in six months the US car tariff will be the same as the EU one - they can choose 2.5%, 10% or some other figure. If China is stealing IP you put a 10,000% tariff on any product that is based on IP theft. You do this item-by-item to level the playing field. This sort of subtle, measured approach of course is far beyond Trump's comprehension so he picks some industries and percentages out of the air and pisses everyone off.

that works.
Another approach could also work.

The US  - via policy, currently values a clean environment and labor standards.

Not all countries do - but if we buy from them, we effectively just outsource our pollution generation and child labor.

So - add a "enviro & labor" equalizing tariff so that the US based manufacturing industry isn't penalized by THAT specific set of costs. Low labor costs, low land costs, etc could still be a competitive advantage of a less developed economy.

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1 minute ago, Raz'r said:

that works.
Another approach could also work.

The US  - via policy, currently values a clean environment and labor standards.

Not all countries do - but if we buy from them, we effectively just outsource our pollution generation and child labor.

So - add a "enviro & labor" equalizing tariff so that the US based manufacturing industry isn't penalized by THAT specific set of costs. Low labor costs, low land costs, etc could still be a competitive advantage of a less developed economy.

and you say Trump doesn't have a clue  LOL

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24 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

OK, how about this. If there is an unfairness you tackle it. Say to the Europeans that in six months the US car tariff will be the same as the EU one - they can choose 2.5%, 10% or some other figure. If China is stealing IP you put a 10,000% tariff on any product that is based on IP theft. You do this item-by-item to level the playing field. This sort of subtle, measured approach of course is far beyond Trump's comprehension so he picks some industries and percentages out of the air and pisses everyone off.

I agree with that thought process    Trump certainly is the bull in the china shop.  

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1 hour ago, billy backstay said:

 

Not paying money to read that, so if anyone wants to C&P it, I will read it.

So much for Donald Trump as genius deal-maker. We are supposed to believe his tariff threats are a clever negotiation strategy, but on Thursday he revealed he’s merely an old-fashioned protectionist. His decision to slap tariffs on steel and aluminum imports from Europe, Canada and Mexico will hurt the U.S. economy, his own foreign policy and perhaps Republicans in November. 

In March Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross dangled temporary exemptions to 25% steel and 10% aluminum tariffs to extort trade concessions from U.S. allies. Mr. Ross withdrew the exemptions on Thursday, saying the U.S. “was unable to reach satisfactory arrangements” with Canada, Mexico and the European Union. He means they didn’t unilaterally surrender. 

Mr. Ross announced the tariffs under Section 232 of the 1962 Trade Expansion Act ostensibly to circumvent the World Trade Organization. WTO rules let countries adopt tariffs to protect national security, but Canada, Mexico and Europe are hardly a threat.

Canadian steel and aluminum are actually integral to U.S. national defense, as Commerce’s Section 232 reports acknowledge. Mr. Trump complained that Lockheed ’s F-35s cost too much, but now he’s going to make U.S. fighter jets and other weapons more expensive, which could give Russia an advantage in international arms sales. Brilliant. Another irony is that Mr. Trump has denounced China for using national security as a pretext to promote domestic industries like semiconductors. He’s essentially doing the same.

Potomac Watch Podcast

Trump's Trade Disruption 
 
00:00 / 21:36
 
 
 

American businesses rely on complex cross-border supply chains that take time and money to change. Most will have to internalize the tariff costs, which will mean raising prices or hiring fewer workers and paying lower wages. The tariffs also create uncertainty as businesses petition Commerce for product exemptions while delaying investment. Note to Mr. Trump: Regulatory uncertainty was a big reason growth was so slow during the Obama years. 

Taxing steel and aluminum imports will make U.S. manufacturers less competitive. Prior to Thursday’s announcement, U.S. steel prices were up 40% this year and nearly 50% over the European benchmark. How does punishing American manufacturers square with Mr. Trump’s goal of making more cars in America? 

 

Mr. Ross has dismissed the impact on consumers, but a 25% increase in input costs is nothing to sniff at. Companies use imported steel and aluminum in everything from cars to beer cans to Hershey’s kisses wrappers. The Federal Reserve in April reported that a maker of tractor trailers said that it “can’t raise prices as fast as material costs.” A toy manufacturer in the Northeast that uses a thin-gauge aluminum foil said the tariffs had raised its prices three-fold.

Then there’s the larger trade fallout, not least to Nafta. Canada provides 43% of U.S. aluminum imports—more than twice as much as China and Russia combined. Mexico and Canada together account for about a fifth of U.S. steel imports compared to China’s 2% and Russia’s 9%. As Nebraska Senator Ben Sasse tweeted, “You don’t treat allies the same way you treat opponents.” On trade Mr. Trump treats them worse.

Nafta is already in jeopardy due to excessive U.S. demands that include a wage mandate on autos and a five-year sunset. Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said Thursday that he recently offered to visit the White House to close a Nafta deal. But Vice President Mike Pence told him he’d have to accept a five-year Nafta sunset. Mr. Trudeau rightly said no Canadian leader would agree to such a self-defeating provision.

Instead, other countries are retaliating. Europe has teed up tariffs of up to 50% on $3.3 billion of U.S. products including bourbon, motorboats, cranberries and playing cards. Canada plans to hit up to $12.8 billion in products including U.S. steel, yogurt, hair lacquers, beer kegs and sailboats. Mexico announced tariffs on U.S. steel, lamps, pork, apples, grapes and cheese. Many items on the tariff lists overlap because they target states that Mr. Trump won and House districts where Republicans have competitive races.

All of which means that President Trump’s gambit could backfire politically. Mexico is America’s biggest apple export market. Washington Rep. Dave Reichert says apple and pear exports to Mexico increased by 70% after Nafta. Wisconsin produces more than half of the nation’s cranberries whose biggest export markets are the Netherlands and Canada. 

Democrats have bought billboards in California’s Central Valley denouncing the impact of Mr. Trump’s trade policies on farmers. Even steel manufacturers will take a hit since Canada buys about half of U.S. steel exports while Mexico imports about 40%. The steelworkers union supported an exemption for Canada.

Mr. Trump has been establishing a solid economic record with tax cuts and deregulation, but his escalating trade war puts that at risk. He aspires to be Ronald Reagan but his tariff folly echoes of Herbert Hoover.

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12 minutes ago, TMSAIL said:

and you say Trump doesn't have a clue  LOL

you think that's what Trump has done?

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1 hour ago, Amati said:

Squirrel!

Fearless leader!  Your brilliance blinds us!

together now, page 5,  from the Trump Hymnal,

(organ :) intro....)

oh blinding light

oh light that blinds,

watch out for me,

i cannot see.

We're all bozos on this bus.

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56 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

OK, how about this. If there is an unfairness you tackle it. Say to the Europeans that in six months the US car tariff will be the same as the EU one - they can choose 2.5%, 10% or some other figure. If China is stealing IP you put a 10,000% tariff on any product that is based on IP theft. You do this item-by-item to level the playing field. This sort of subtle, measured approach of course is far beyond Trump's comprehension so he picks some industries and percentages out of the air and pisses everyone off.

WOW, FANTASTIC

The Department of Commerce has so little to do that we add 10K people or so to staff it.

Tell you what, let's have a standup at 4:30 today to set an agenda for an early Monday (say 7:30 AM) meeting to go over your proposed goals and supporting mission statement.  Donuts are on you.