QBF

The 2018 Golden Globe Race

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On 10/21/2018 at 4:38 PM, littlechay said:

Beat me to it Jack.. possibly about to rescued by a stock bendy boat. ! 

I am still waiting for the rush of comments about the stock bendy coming to the rescue of a heavy long keel yacht in the southern ocean.

I really hope that he will be OK and his keel does not fall off mid rescue.

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1 hour ago, littlechay said:

Weather fax receivers for shipboard use running on DC power with thermal paper came on the scene in the 1960s. 

Before they became automated you had to listen for a signal, select the correct speed, start the recorder and manually synchronise the recorder with the signal all while the paper had a mind of its own about wanting to feed it.

It is interesting that 2nd hand marine electronics from this era and even into the 80's now get listed for sale as a "vintage collector's item". I'm starting to experience the same feeling :-)

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39 minutes ago, dralyagmas said:

I am still waiting for the rush of comments about the stock bendy coming to the rescue of a heavy long keel yacht in the southern ocean...

No need....the Skipperless Class podium can now be filled.

UPDATE....Just received a call from Australian Maritime Safety Authority - AMSA JRCC that Loïc Lepage has been successfully transferred to the Bulk Carrier SHIOSAI with Francis Tolan standing by in ALIZES II. He has no injuries. Full report as it becomes available. GGR thanks all those involved for such professional dedication and passion to secure Loic from a very difficult situation. WE just spoke to his family and they are eternally grateful to everyone. Fantastic news!!!!.   We look forward to seeing Francis now continue on safely with his own solo non stop circumnavigation in Longue Route 2018 officiel   #GGR2018

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12 hours ago, staysail said:

Its fascinating to read all the comments here about this race. Especially the ones suggesting modern communications, weather forecasting and GPS should have been allowed. Maybe these comments come from those who are not old enough to have sailed out of sight of land before the days of Decca Navigator, GPS and the like, and when weather forecasts more than a day ahead were useless. If you cannot go to sea without these things you simply cannot consider yourself to be self reliant in the same manner that was normal 50 years ago and more. I still have a love/hate view of GPS as I miss the adventure and occasional adrenaline rush of old style navigation, and especially coastal navigation in strong tides off a rocky coastline in foggy and windy conditions on visual nav and dead reckoning only! I remember the huge difference it made when I first bought a Seafix RDF! In those days very few pleasure boats would set out from land in a fog, and knowing where you were was always a constant issue. Accuracy was measured in miles, sometimes tens of miles, not metres.
Yes, now I use a pc with Maxsea and I have 3 GPS sets on board. I still carry my sextant and RDF set and trailing log, but being honest with myself, I have lost much of my early hands on skills of navigation due to simple lack of day to day practice because of constant use of GPS. Today if I didn't have GPS I would not trust myself to make some of the landfalls which I considered routine 50 years ago.
I guess my critiscm of this event would come from the opposite direction. Why have rules on boat type and materials? There were none for the early navigators? And if you want to replicate the conditions which applied in the old days there should be no communications other than a VHF and a MF radio and a catapult to send film and written narratives to passing ships. As regards weather, the old navigators used a barometer and a piece of seaweed.  As for a RO giving a competitor weather routing advice??!!! You have to be joking.
Also don't forget that EPIRBs and the like didn't exist and the range of rescue services and the ability to call for help was also very primitive. Australian taxpayers would not be complaining because likely your SOS would not be heard and you would not get rescued! Back in the day even a short coastal voyage single handed in a small yacht was quite risky and any long distance ocean voyage in a small boat was extremely risky. But if an adventurer wants to experience the situations faced by the old time race navigators, they have to face the fact that these folk were knowingly putting their lives at considerable risk. Every little bit by way of chipping away at that risk to life seems to me to progressively erode the validity of the objective of this race.

It’s funny, a couple months ago my wife asked me why I still had my sextant onboard because the case was “taking up valuable space in the aft cabin”...

This was the first year I haven’t opened my alamanac to do a site. A couple weeks ago my Garmin 740 temporarily stopped loading and I felt lost. I had to remind myself that I wasn’t. Still seemed odd not to look down at the helm and see everything from location to SOG. Kind of like sailing from the slip out and all the way back into the slip without running the engine just so that day when it doesn’t start you can (and will) get back without too much stress. 

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6 hours ago, Woods Rider said:

It’s funny, a couple months ago my wife asked me why I still had my sextant onboard because the case was “taking up valuable space in the aft cabin...

Funny I had a similiar question once...I still have the sextant.

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19 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Funny I had a similiar question once...I still have the sextant.

Me too!

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Marine radio weather fax dates to 1926 as described here, and there must have been receivers suitable for ship use within 40 years.

I haven't been able to find a cite for the first receiver suitable for small boats, but I do not believe it was earlier than the mid 70s.

 

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12 minutes ago, Moonduster said:

Marine radio weather fax dates to 1926 as described here, and there must have been receivers suitable for ship use within 40 years.

I haven't been able to find a cite for the first receiver suitable for small boats, but I do not believe it was earlier than the mid 70s.

 

Probably one of those JRC ones?

Lucky for Loic there was an true blue water cruiser, with a cat onboard,  around. This race is funny, 4ksb's floating around the globe and media visibility close to zero.

Greater public will soon react to cost of rescuing these guys?

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Loïc Lepage yacht LAALAND Sunk!!!! at 0630UTC on 23rd October 2018. Loic is now headed to Las Palmas in Argentina onboard the MV SHIOSAI at about 9kts and will arrive in Approx 30 days. I hope he salvaged some books. Not going to get to the Horn much before Heede the way he is going.

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1 hour ago, Moonduster said:

I haven't been able to find a cite for the first receiver suitable for small boats, but I do not believe it was earlier than the mid 70s.

I recall Furono late 60's or maybe Alden??pulling them out to replace with 70's stuff.. they were not small boat friendly and very expensive at install I suspect. The 70's gear was state of the art with auto function etc and not on too many big boats even.

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Whining about cost of rescue is just that, whining. There's no significant material cost to running a rescue operation. Equipment and personnel expenses don't change, incremental maintenance and fuel costs aren't significant compared to budgets for routine operations. There is, of course, additional risk.

 

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Pondering why all these rigs have been coming down.  Is it that Heavy boats put a lot of load into the rig, but modern sails don’t have the stretch or give of 1968 fabric and that shock loads under stress put into the rigging are just too great?  

Or are these crappy hulls just getting tumbled because they can’t get out of their own way?

Something odd is going on.

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7 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

Pondering why all these rigs have been coming down.  Is it that Heavy boats put a lot of load into the rig, but modern sails don’t have the stretch or give of 1968 fabric and that shock loads under stress put into the rigging are just too great?  

Or are these crappy hulls just getting tumbled because they can’t get out of their own way?

Something odd is going on.

I think it's because these hulls cannot get out of their own way in a big sea state.  I think this is a much more dangerous race than the Vendee Globe.  Despite years of old guys saying the opposite, this event has shown once again that slow = dangerous.  Finot understood this a long time ago.

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1 minute ago, r.finn said:

I think it's because these hulls cannot get out of their own way in a big sea state.  I think this is a much more dangerous race than the Vendee Globe.  Despite years of old guys saying the opposite, this event has shown once again that slow = dangerous.  Finot understood this a long time ago.

Fundamentally the boats are from the school of thought that the Westsail 32 is somehow the "bluewater boat standard" because its owners are under the mistaken belief that thick and heavy = it'll survive the challenges of the sea. 

You can take a few of these people, put them on a 10-12 meter modern beamy light boat - they'll keep mocking it until in under 15 knots you've already reached their boat's top speed at 25 knots; and when its gusting 35 knots (where they'll be basically reefed down to the bottom or knocked down) your boat just enjoys a burst of acceleration and handles the surfs without pitchpoling or rounding up because ... apparently it needs to be shown that scientific method and engineering have come a long way in 40 years.

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Losing their rigs is a symptom, not the problem.

Of the boats that have been dismasted, I believe all have been rolled or knocked down past the mast-in-water angle. Once that happens, loosing the rig is no surprise. The fact that they're slow, heavy hull forms that are always stuck in displacement mode is probably the biggest contributing factor to why they've been rolled and/or severely knocked down. Lack of good auto pilots may be a secondary factor.

 

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1 hour ago, Moonduster said:

Whining about cost of rescue is just that, whining. There's no significant material cost to running a rescue operation. Equipment and personnel expenses don't change, incremental maintenance and fuel costs aren't significant compared to budgets for routine operations. There is, of course, additional risk.

 

Moon it has got nothing to do with balance sheet reality. It is perception. The first place you see whining is in the press on behalf of taxpayer dollars. The country who has pulled more people out of the Sth Ocean than any other is Aust having regard to its large SO area of responsibility. It costs big 7 figure bucks irrespective of accounting reconciliation. It happens very regularly so this is a national open book subject. It is the racers and then idiots which get the press scrutiny and it takes a bit to cross that line of acceptable or not from a country that worships the crazy.

If this second GGR rescue involved another Aust taxpayer pickup I think you can be guaranteed there would be a on behalf of taxpayer media whine. Offshore sailing needs that like a hole in the head and the RO is holding the goodwill cheque book in his hand ready to spend on our behalf.

My recollection is there has been only two whines from the Aust press in the past. The first was just a slight one being Autissier in 94 BOC and largely being Xmas/New Year period where there was no other news so it gave them something to write about plus it involved a women with all that entailed in that era. Then Bullimore in 97 VG which was weird because all supportive/public interest etc as he was presumed dead then saved etc but the negative occured afterwards when again a New Year dead zone news period and press cottoned on to him being a pommy fuckwit that should not have been there in the first place.

If another Aust taxpayer pickup for this race occurs I guarantee there will be some whining ocurring. The RO has just dodged a PR bullet with a ship being near by which in that postcode is extremely lucky.

Public perception and reality as we see it are poles apart. For instance everyone conveniently forgets that when Jessica Watson set out on her youngest ever female circumnavigation in a program put together by the RO of this race, that within 50 mile of starting she sailed into the side of a fucking ship having dozzed off and wrecking her boat. Then a month or more period fixing it, some say actually spent getting it properly prepared courtesy of the extra sympathy bucks that flowed in...she then went on to complete a quite remarkable feat.

My guess is public perception over reality regarding incidents at sea is territory this RO knows very well. We are just mere observers, but guaranteed he is shitting himself if another Aust Frigate has to be deployed.

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59 minutes ago, Moonduster said:

Whining about cost of rescue is just that, whining. There's no significant material cost to running a rescue operation. Equipment and personnel expenses don't change, incremental maintenance and fuel costs aren't significant compared to budgets for routine operations. There is, of course, additional risk.

 

With all due respect, I disagree. Basic organisation and basic assets are in place and that part of the cost is fixed, yup. But additional arrangements for alert state, sending planes, sending rescue assets, diverting ships, logistics for subsequent steps, theoretically environmental cleanup, etc, all that stuff comes on top as a variable cost. 

And more theoretically. Fixed cost is considered to be fixed for a certain period only. If Don was let to organise this mess annually, someone would need to set up an MRCC base right on Ile Amsterdam.  

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Honestly, what surprises me most about these knockdown/roll dismastings while running before storms is that all these boats still have their rudders.  Has there been any rudder damage so far?

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1 hour ago, Miffy said:

Fundamentally the boats are from the school of thought that the Westsail 32 is somehow the "bluewater boat standard" because its owners are under the mistaken belief that thick and heavy = it'll survive the challenges of the sea. 

 

1 hour ago, Moonduster said:

Of the boats that have been dismasted, I believe all have been rolled or knocked down past the mast-in-water angle. 

 

36 minutes ago, r.finn said:

Honestly, what surprises me most about these knockdown/roll dismastings while running before storms is that all these boats still have their rudders.  Has there been any rudder damage so far?

 

It does seem that these heavy slow boats are rolling more than the modern boats - even the likes of the Beneteau rescue bendy toy.  Confirming what Moon writes, the Wikipedia writers say that the rolling and dis-masting record is now 4/4, which squares with my less than complete spectating:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Golden_Globe_Race

It would be great to hear from someone who works on hull designs, who could give actual facts and figures beyond anecdote.  Bob Perry listening?  No rudder issues are listed as reasons for retirement, perhaps not that surprising with the protection offered by the big keel and the slow speeds.

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8 minutes ago, Moonduster said:

Nord,

Can you cite a single appropriations bill that released incremental funding for any SAR operation, world wide.

 

Sorry, no. You could google around and see if someone made such a thing public. I wouldn't expect too much, but you never know.

Generally, I'll just have to assume you sort of understand what kinds of costs are involved. Generally speaking, if you were preparing to run an MRCC and related SAR assets, you'd budget for the fixed costs + some anticipated / estimated variable costs. Fixed costs include having the infra, staff and assets in place, and maintaining it all. Running idle, but keeping patrols and rehearsals going on. For variable costs each year, you'd assume a number of events, and assess what more would be needed in terms of more seatime, more plane charters, overtime, kit replacement, etc.

Then, there is a number of ways to calculate the per-event cost. A sort of fair scenario is to assess how much extra work/cost was going on for the particular case, ie. any costs beyond just running the basic capability at idle. Worst case, ie. what the press might come up with, is dividing the entire budget with the number of events, perhaps peppered with things like plane charters etc.

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6 minutes ago, Nord said:

Sorry, no. You could google around and see if someone made such a thing public. I wouldn't expect too much, but you never know.

Generally, I'll just have to assume you sort of understand what kinds of costs are involved. Generally speaking, if you were preparing to run an MRCC and related SAR assets, you'd budget for the fixed costs + some anticipated / estimated variable costs. Fixed costs include having the infra, staff and assets in place, and maintaining it all. Running idle, but keeping patrols and rehearsals going on. For variable costs each year, you'd assume a number of events, and assess what more would be needed in terms of more seatime, more plane charters, overtime, kit replacement, etc.

Then, there is a number of ways to calculate the per-event cost. A sort of fair scenario is to assess how much extra work/cost was going on for the particular case, ie. any costs beyond just running the basic capability at idle. Worst case, ie. what the press might come up with, is dividing the entire budget with the number of events, perhaps peppered with things like plane charters etc.

Add costs for the cargo ship:

they note the time MRCC asked them to head for the vessel in distress in their log book. from that moment, until released from the scene by MRCC and returned to their original route, the cost for charter downtime, late fees, fuel, crew, etc. will be re-claimed later on by the chartering department of that shipping company. add some minor costs for the upkeep of the extra passenger until he has departed.

Rescue at sea is never cheap and will introduce additional costs compared to just having a rescue organization in st-by.

 

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2 hours ago, Miffy said:

Fundamentally the boats are from the school of thought that the Westsail 32 is somehow the "bluewater boat standard" because its owners are under the mistaken belief that thick and heavy = it'll survive the challenges of the sea. 

You can take a few of these people, put them on a 10-12 meter modern beamy light boat - they'll keep mocking it until in under 15 knots you've already reached their boat's top speed at 25 knots; and when its gusting 35 knots (where they'll be basically reefed down to the bottom or knocked down) your boat just enjoys a burst of acceleration and handles the surfs without pitchpoling or rounding up because ... apparently it needs to be shown that scientific method and engineering have come a long way in 40 years.

I'm old enough to recall as a young kid in the 60's reading the armchair sailor's "scientific" explanations of why boats like the Cal 40 couldn't possibly be surfing on their way to Hawaii and that the young whippersnapper crews on board such boats were suffering from a fundamental misunderstanding of what they were experiencing on the water.  They even had drawings and diagrams.  Notably, in the US the contrarians were largely on the east coast and the whippersnappers were on the west coast.  And of course they were ignorant/disdainful of anything happening in France or OZ/NZ.

Being stuck in the past and being obtuse to progress was perhaps excusable back then, but there are still many people who haven't gotten the message that fast is both more fun and safer.  I was recently shown a copy of "Good Old Boat" magazine highlighting the glories of the clunkers of years gone by...these people are getting organized!

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Good Old Boat is a great rag. As far as old boats go, my friend Christian Williams singlehanded his 86 Ericson 32 to Hawaii and back to LA then turned around and did it again on his Ericson 38. Not all old boats are clunkers like the Westsail...lol. I like my E boat just fine too. 

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39 minutes ago, Woods Rider said:

Good Old Boat is a great rag. As far as old boats go, my friend Christian Williams singlehanded his 86 Ericson 32 to Hawaii and back to LA then turned around and did it again on his Ericson 38. Not all old boats are clunkers like the Westsail...lol. I like my E boat just fine too. 

I think you'll find many comments here about boats such as the S&S 34, etc. being very decent and appropriate in terms of age and seaworthiness for this "race".  Just not these full-keeled holes-in-the-water. 

th.jpeg

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9 hours ago, Woods Rider said:

Good Old Boat is a great rag. As far as old boats go, my friend Christian Williams singlehanded his 86 Ericson 32 to Hawaii and back to LA then turned around and did it again on his Ericson 38. Not all old boats are clunkers like the Westsail...lol. I like my E boat just fine too. 

This! Good Old Boat is not even vaguely related to this race, it is about low budget sailors fixing up old boats of all kinds, including old race boats. Cal 40s are old now ;)

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9 hours ago, Left Shift said:

I think you'll find many comments here about boats such as the S&S 34, etc. being very decent and appropriate in terms of age and seaworthiness for this "race".  Just not these full-keeled holes-in-the-water. 

th.jpeg

It is going to be interesting when this thing is all over to see how the average speeds over the course compare to the many S&S 34's and similar moderate fin keel boats that have circumnavigated solo non stop on this route.  I don't think any of them have averaged over 5 knots so all qualify for the 4ksb club. I  would be happy to be proven wrong.

 

Steve.

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9 hours ago, Woods Rider said:

Good Old Boat is a great rag. As far as old boats go, my friend Christian Williams singlehanded his 86 Ericson 32 to Hawaii and back to LA then turned around and did it again on his Ericson 38. Not all old boats are clunkers like the Westsail...lol. I like my E boat just fine too. 

Ask Christian if he'd ever take his E38 on a lap.  Web Chiles took his Erickson 37 Egregious on a lap and it busted at the seems.

Quote

Sometimes I count the buckets when I bail. Water is coming in at between 60 and 75 gallons an hour. More than 1,500 gallons or 12,000 pounds a day lifted from the bilge and thrown into the cockpit. Eight hours out of every twenty-four are spent bailing; fifteen minutes an hour during the day, and at night I sleep never more than ninety minutes before having to bail.

 

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2 hours ago, Steve said:

It is going to be interesting when this thing is all over to see how the average speeds over the course compare to the many S&S 34's and similar moderate fin keel boats that have circumnavigated solo non stop on this route.  I don't think any of them have averaged over 5 knots so all qualify for the 4ksb club. I  would be happy to be proven wrong.

 

Steve.

Will the speeds of the remaining 8 boats be multiplied by .47 to account for the 9 boats that have "quit" having an effective 0 knot velocity.  

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Peche - the coolest of all, naff to Cape Town. It seems that he sensed something that we do not understand and do not know.

Maybe in the weather, maybe in the constructions&/|equipment of the yacht (and they are all almost the same) , maybe in organizing competitions ( access to weather forecast).

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On 10/23/2018 at 3:09 AM, jack_sparrow said:

While going for decades fax wasn't a small marinised consumer priced bit of gear in the 60's.  While weather forecast quality back then was not what it is today, they had lots of voice weather sources (broadcast and relay) which helped when propogation was an issue, particularly at higher latitudes. Those sources dissapeared in early 2000's. Moitessier didn't even have a HF so I don't think he ever contemplated buying one of these.

1280px-Muirhead_fax_machine_-_MfK_Bern.jpg

 OFF

I worked on these. Оn the first photo below on the left, the famous radio - "p-250".
What is a black ball, I do not know.

0000034_big.jpg

Met_FTAK_2P_LAGODA.JPG

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6 hours ago, Steve said:

It is going to be interesting when this thing is all over to see how the average speeds over the course compare to the many S&S 34's and similar moderate fin keel boats that have circumnavigated solo non stop on this route.  I don't think any of them have averaged over 5 knots so all qualify for the 4ksb club. I  would be happy to be proven wrong.

 

Steve.

A few minutes surfing:  Jessica Watson sailed 22,000 miles in 210 days for an average of 4.4 knots.  That would put her in a push for 2nd place this time around, with JVDH averaging over 5 knots clearly out front by miles and the tail-enders averaging about 3 knots.   

But all apples to kelp comparisons.

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OFF

P S

Satellite images were taken on a machine similar to your photo, on a format film. Showed the film in the dark.
I was not allowed due to youth  lack of education and high cost of the film.

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On 10/24/2018 at 1:31 AM, Moonduster said:

Of the boats that have been dismasted, I believe all have been rolled or knocked down past the mast-in-water angle

Seems this last one was forestay failure. I think this guy stopped in CT wanting to check his rig too???

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6 hours ago, Buna said:

OFF

P S

Satellite images were taken on a machine similar to your photo, on a format film. Showed the film in the dark.
I was not allowed due to youth  lack of education and high cost of the film.

Satellite images on electrostatic sensitive fax paper (not film) recievers were available in late 1960's. They cost around $4K or more than cost of a car. They weren't marine units though.

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7 hours ago, Buna said:

 OFF

I worked on these. Оn the first photo below on the left, the famous radio - "p-250".
What is a black ball, I do not know.

0000034_big.jpg

Met_FTAK_2P_LAGODA.JPG

That black ball is a gyro sphere.

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On 10/24/2018 at 2:52 AM, Moonduster said:

Nord,

Can you cite a single appropriations bill that released incremental funding for any SAR operation, world wide.

 

On 10/24/2018 at 3:36 AM, Nord said:

Sorry, no. You could google around and see if someone made such a thing public. I wouldn't expect too much, but you never know.

Generally, I'll just have to assume you sort of understand what kinds of costs are involved. Generally speaking, if you were preparing to run an MRCC and related SAR assets, you'd budget for the fixed costs + some anticipated / estimated variable costs......

Then, there is a number of ways to calculate the per-event cost. A sort of fair scenario is to assess how much extra work/cost was going on for the particular case, ie. any costs beyond just running the basic capability at idle. Worst case, ie. what the press might come up with, is dividing the entire budget with the number of events, perhaps peppered with things like plane charters etc.

Depends what constitutes "incremental funding"? For instance it is correct to treat a countries annual budget and expenditure cycle as incremental funding. That said I understand the point.

As for running a Marine Rescue Cordination Centre (MRCC) don't forget the structure varies enormously country to country. Some MRCC's cordinate only and incur no SAR Response cost, on the other hand some sit under the one umbrella that also incurs largely the full SAR Response cost like the USCG. Australia has a cordinate and incurs some of the SAR Response cost arrangement where the balance, and sometimes the majority, of SAR Response expenditure is incurred by other federal and state agencies like defence forces and police. The one thing common to all is the SAR response function also relies heavily on private/commercial aircraft and ships of all flags.

So using Australia as an example and which is a good one having historicaly pulled more SH racers out the ocean than others.

The current appropriations bill in the Aust 2018/19 Federal Budget for the Australian Maritime Safety Authority (AMSA) and its operating division Australian Search and Rescue (AusSAR) is as follows. Refer to linky below.

Australian Search and Rescue Function - AUD$59,417,000.

Australian Search and Rescue Response  - AUD$10,928,000 or say $30k per day.

This $11m is slightly less than the previous years expenditure where while it was a VG year, no SAR response was necessary.

AMSA essentialy contract out its "long distance"  SAR Response function on a "do and charge' basis to Cobham Aviation Services with their specialy fitted out Bombardier Challenger CL-604 jet aircraft. Their contract is confidential but the operating cost, including depreciation for one of these planes bog standard is USD$12,600 / hr or say AUD $17k per hour. See linky below.

So using recent GGR SAR's where I think the Challenger jets did three(3) round trips in total (Tomy/Gregor one and Loic two) so AMSA's SAR Response cost was say;

Tomy/Gregor - $150k (balance incurred by Aust Navy/Airforce & other Nations)

Loic - $270k (balance incurred privately)

TOTAL $420k or arguably may result in a a budget overrun for the year of say 4% on account of 2017 (SAR quiet year) expenditure and 2018 budget both matching.

Will that entail AMSA rushing off to seek incremental appropriation funding? No. Will it involve AMSA either finding the money elsewhere within their overall $200m+  operating budget or if not securing additional funding that is non SAR specific? Yes.

Obviously not included in the above SAR Response cost is Navy (Frigate)and Airforce (P-8A Poseidon flights) for Tomy and Gregor. Calculating that is nigh on impossible without some serious enquiry and number crunching. That said unlike AMSA's SAR Response costs, theirs can fall within large operating budgets that include training etc that their SAR role and resultant costs can be easily absorbed into. It probably also fits nicely into that public sector approach of spend your budget otherwise next year it will reduced.

However as a guide to AMSA and Aust Defence Force (ADF) SAR total costs, albeit press sourced. In the 1996/97 VG rescue of Tony Bullimore, Thierry Dubois and Raphael Dinelli, it was reported that was at a combined cost of $15m. Plucking Isabelle Autissier to safety from the Southern Ocean in 94 edition of the BOC was estimated at $6m. See linky backgrounding 2008 VG rescue/aid to Yann Elies and Mike Golding.

As you can see from the above no two SAR responses are the same even in the same patch of ocean. Loic cashed a cheque around $300k, Tommy and Gregor maybe $5/6 million on a two for one deal, ignoring the Indian Navy double up. The end result is there is no such thing as a "rule of thumb" cost of rescue per event or per incident.

One thing however is clear from the above is Australia is happy complying with its responsibilities without taxpayer whinging, though they might wish more rescues like Loic's happened more often without the need for the ADF to crank up. 

This subject will become a moot point once they clear NZ enroute to the Horn as down there they will be on their own and where stragglers will be most at risk with fellow competitor support downwind.

AMSA SAR Budget See Page 93.

https://infrastructure.gov.au/department/statements/2018_2019/budget/files/2018-19_PBS_DIRDC.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjH98qz_6DeAhWBAIgKHYlaAHgQFjAAegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw0cq9MPjBKqIf492RPWj0O6

https://www.sherpareport.com/aircraft/costs-challenger-605.html

https://www.smh.com.au/national/rescues-to-continue-regardless-of-cost-20081222-gdt7dl.html

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On 10/24/2018 at 1:31 AM, Moonduster said:

Losing their rigs is a symptom, not the problem.

Of the boats that have been dismasted, I believe all have been rolled or knocked down past the mast-in-water angle. Once that happens, loosing the rig is no surprise. The fact that they're slow, heavy hull forms that are always stuck in displacement mode is probably the biggest contributing factor to why they've been rolled and/or severely knocked down. Lack of good auto pilots may be a secondary factor.

 

 

11 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Seems this last one was forestay failure. I think this guy stopped in CT wanting to check his rig too???

Moon you are probably worried I'm humping your leg? Don't worry while being a condecending prick at times, probably like myself, I value your posts like that one.

If you want a laugh or cry watch this explanation about dismastings from the RO. 

No mention of "cause" just banging on about rig "build", sleaving lower sections etc. The RO goes further to underpin the "long keel" rule constraint of this race oblivious to rig damage by saying many existing participants will show up again in these boats, he is looking to allow similiar designs etc. Yet at the same time waxing on about fin keeled S&S 34's along with his own fin keeler in the BOC having such a marvelous record of going around unscathed. WTF.

It gets worse he acknowledges in this vid Heede at great expense and experimentation reduced his rig size on a production boat to match hull form to stay out of trouble. Current participants showing up again. That is a giggle. Current experienced participants who won't show up again I guarantee will be like the fellow who rebuilt a long keel production  S&S number thinking aloud out there that Olin Stephens designed a fin keeler around the time this shitter was built, lovely looking as mine is. What the fuck am I doing on it he is saying today.

The RO can't even join his own fucking dots. If he does, well his view is the GGR Titanic has left port and let's keep it going and I'm not giving a rats arse. 

Some other gems from that Vid.

Rules on the run, seems you can now cross the exclusion zone to avoid weather shit without penalty. That is a new one sent to competitors and their underwriters paying the bills via mystery fax no doubt.

Next one. The RO missed Slats Hobart pitstop on account he was in Hobart glued to the Loic rescue. It seems when competitors get into trouble even at EPIRB stage ring up the RO first on the only reliable device they have being a portable Sat Phone. Under the HF race rules of circa 1968 they don't have the ability to broadcast a HF "just push one button digital witb nature of distress alert" and the world wakes up to incl every land station and commercial vessels world wide and they await a response. The RO has invented a new system.

It seems by the RO's emergency management plan competors first ring the RO on the emergency Sat Phone and the RO deeming it to worthwhile then contacts the nearest Marine Rescue Cordination Centre (MRCC). These centres are not big in number world wide but have lots of resources like multi lingual capability to deal directly with those in distress to garner detail, no matter their platform of connection be it GMDSS or satphone. With say a "quick & sink" situation and diminishing communication that GMDSS or Satphone link to a MRCC is mission critical and maybe measured in seconds.

Loic's emergency satphone at time of pickup or shortly afterwards was dead. How much battery power was spent ensuring the RO was at the centre of the action, probably driving the MRCC mad, for doing things like able to communicate via Facebook what was going on, instead of that onboard device being a rescue specific device?

I have the utmost respect for what the RO has achieved but seriously someone who knows him well needs to do a Intervention. He is on crack.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Moonduster said:

Pretty long on random data points and hyperbole with no useful information.

You put up none and short on any argument hylobole or otherwise. Running short on typewriter ribbon Moon?

 

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coco asking for navigation assistance? 

 

Latest satellite TWEETS from the #GGR2018 fleet 

Jean-Luc : PETIT DEJ IMMUABL:THE/PETITS LU/BEURRE ENCONSERVE BRIOIS,TOP! /
"Breakfast immuable: Tea petits LU Butter in tin Briois TOP !"

Susie : FLAT SEA et WIND AGAIN:) A BIT FOGGY BUT THE CALMERSEAISSUPER /
"Mer plate et du vent à nouveau:) un peu brumeux mais la mer plus calme c'est super"

Uku : 100 M TO TASMANIA SW CAPE.ETA HOBART FRIDAY EARLY MORNING.:) /
"A 100 m du cap SO de la Tasmanie. ETA Hobart vendredi matin tôt.:)"

Coconut : FULL MOON LAST NIGHT - FOURTH SINCE DEPARTURE FM LSDO FRANCE /
"Pleine lune la nuit dernière - 4ème depuis le départ des Sables d'Olonne France"

Coconut : IF DNGRS CLOSE TO AMST I ON DETAILD CHRT PSE MSG CHARL RADIO 

Susie : DONT LEAVE ME WIND!WE WERE SO HAPPY TOGETHER!!! /
"Vent ne me laisse pas ! Nous étions tellement heureux ensemble!!!"

Istvan : SHAMEONMEFORGOTTOASKABOUTLOIC /
"Honte à moi j'ai oublié de demandé des nouvelles de Loic"

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1 hour ago, littlechay said:

coco asking for navigation assistance? 

Maybe referring to the unmanned boats?

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I have a question and apologise it it's already been discussed.

Do the contestants know where they are in relation to each other? In the original race RKJ didn't know if he'd been passed by Moitessier and vice versa so both were pushing really hard against a phantom opponent. The only way the'd know proximity this time is if RO had advised? 

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1 hour ago, thengling said:

Maybe referring to the unmanned boats?

Maybe the cartographers proactively drew them in on their "detailed charts" before the race started.  For the sake of "projected accuracy".   

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Interesting comments about the southern ocean being different this time.

I live on the coast at 43 degrees south, there has certainly been a change in the weather patterns down here over the last few years, more fronts, stronger winds, less time between fronts.

Not that I am in favour of going back to the past and doing this race in slugs, it makes sense to ride the fronts down here rather than let them roll over you, but the environment is certainly different from the one fifty years ago.

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5 hours ago, littlechay said:

coco asking for navigation assistance

How weird is that. In order to not break the outside assistance rule he messages the RO to check his position but not reply but advise Charleville Radio so Coconut can then call them up via HF for confirmation? Maybe Coconut is losing his marbles?,

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3 hours ago, Sea Breeze 74 said:

Do the contestants know where they are in relation to each other?  

In the original race RKJ didn't know if he'd been passed by Moitessier and vice versa so both were pushing really hard against a phantom opponent. The only way the'd know proximity this time is if RO had advised?

Sea they have a daily chat show amongst themselves on the HF but whether they disclose positions or not I don't know. Would be odd if they didn't.

Remember in original Moitessier had no radio and RKJ lost his between CT and Aust. Don't know if the others conversed. If they did Crowhurst complaining of being sunburnt everyday might have been a clue.

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I didn't realise the half-tide mark had been reached. Ebbing at this rate might see a repeat of 68 with only one left standing.

The Rustlers all at the front end with only 2 retired and only sloops left are interesting stats.

STILL RATTLING ALONG

1. Jean- Luc VDH (FRA)Rustler 36 Matmut

2. Mark Slats (NED)Rustler 36 Ohpen Maverick

3. Uku Randmaa (EST) Rustler 36 One and All

4 Susie Goodall (GBR) Rustler 36 DHL Starlight

5.Istvan Kopar (USA) Tradewind 35 Puffin

6.Tapio Lehtinen (FIN) Gaia 36 Asteria

7.Mark Sinclair (Aus) Lello 34 Coconut

8.Igor Zaretskiy (RUS) Endurance 35 Esmeralda

QUIT

1. Ertan Beskardes (GBR) Rustler 36 Lazy Otter

2. Kevin Farebrother (AUS) Tradewind 35 Sagarmatha

3. Nabil Amra (PAL) Biscay 36 Liberty II

4. Antoine Cousot (FRA) Biscay 36 Métier Intérim

5. Philippe Péché (FRA) Rustler 36 PRB

7. Are Wiig (NOR) OE 32 Olleanna

8. Gregor McGuckin (IRE) Biscay 36 Hanley Energy Endurance

9. Abhilash Tomy (IND) Suhaili replica Thuriya

10. Francesco Cappelletti (ITA) Endurance 35 007

11. Loïc Lepage (FRA) Nicholson 32 Laaland

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5 hours ago, olaf hart said:

I live on the coast at 43 degrees south, there has certainly been a change in the weather patterns down here over the last few years, more fronts, stronger winds, less time between fronts.

Olaf think twice about moving north. Gusting 200k (satelite measured as instruments long gone) and 20' surge. Typhoon Yutu has wiped the Mariana's clean.

This is a false-colour satellite image showing the moment the eye passed over Tinian.

af695115999a0b7d5329a78c75c15e830f28d2b8.jpeg

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Looks as the RO is working hard trying to keep as many horses in the field as possible, even if as Chichesters.

Are you in Tassie? with a MONITOR windvane on your yacht?? and can help Susie? Hopefully Susie Goodall Racing will be able to fix her vane when she arrives in Hobart without any outside assistance! BUT?? if not and parts are urgently required it may be FAST to strip a unit in HOBART??  to be replaced later...just an idea?? let us know..THANKS..!!

https://www.facebook.com/1751709878415736/posts/2153249394928447/

 

FB_IMG_1540534847199.jpg

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4 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

I didn't realise the half-tide mark had been reached. Ebbing at this rate might see a repeat of 68 with only one left standing.

The Rustlers all at the front end with only 2 retired and only sloops left are interesting stats.

Looking at the QUIT stats there are 4 masts, a handfull of vanes and a handfull of "I really don't don't want to be here". Assuming after leaving Tasmania the last place for that to occur with six yet to arrive, that gets rid of the last group. The odds then of masts is probably less as other than the NZ and Cape Horn sections the Pacific is aguably more benign than to-date with them being at a higher lattitude and it being Nov/Dec.

Vane odds failure that is unfixable while they increase with time they maybe won't be working as hard as to date. So between Hobart, Dunedin, Argentina or Chile Customs getting some unplanned visitors, lets say a total of one third of existing pullover to the kerb.

That leaves five at best getting across the finish line which is around the number expected pre-start by the RO. Is a 25% hit rate acceptable or not is another discussion, albeit the RO seems to think so.

Regardless if Heede is one he will probably have enough time to sneak in a quick Trans Atlantic while waiting for the podium ceremony.

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17 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

How weird is that. In order to not break the outside assistance rule he messages the RO to check his position but not reply but advise Charleville Radio so Coconut can then call them up via HF for confirmation? Maybe Coconut is losing his marbles?,

I'd guess Coconut didn't take his marbles along to begin with. I like how he takes this 'race' as an extended vacation.

But is getting the position fix via external sources still a taboo? I think, in one of the soundclound bits, someone (I think it was Tapio) mentioned he's getting lazy with taking sights as he gets the position on the radio anyway? I may have misinterpreted something though, just listening to some of the calls as a background noise a while ago. 

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On 10/25/2018 at 2:10 PM, Moonduster said:

Pretty long on random data points and hyperbole with no useful information.

I can happily offer to dig even deeper into this for you, and provide you with an insightful 40-page powerpoint designed to drive the obvious facts home. 

Of course, you'll need to agree to my usual pricing for analysis like this, to be paid on a Time&Material basis. 

If you are on a budget, as an alternative, we can recommend homegrown common sense.

;)

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The common sense is that the incremental cost of a rescue operation by a funded SAR organization is zero dollars beyond their budget.

 

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Budgets don't mean anything in terms of cost. You may be allocated $500 million operating budget but if you go under, you don't keep it, if you go over? Gov stills keeps paying the salaries and expenses. 

Arguing about "minimal" cost increase because of rescue operations is like saying starting forest fires is no big deal because the resources to fight fires is already expensed and allocation. 

Ppl's lives are put in danger. Equipment is strained and a finite resource is consumed. 

The GGW org is about as well resourced as the average yachtie nav desk. 

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How many rescues in the deep south do the Australian rescue services do that aren't yachtsmen each year, i.e. what proportion of the SAR budget do yachties absorb?

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3 hours ago, hump101 said:

How many rescues in the deep south do the Australian rescue services do that aren't yachtsmen each year, i.e. what proportion of the SAR budget do yachties absorb?

AMSA Data is not published seperately by geographic sector or vessel or arcraft type. You can draw your own conclusions by say excluding the coastal fringe say 200 miles offshore and then treat the offshore area to the south west, south and south east of Australia as having a very low proportion of commercial and recreational traffic compared to elsewhere.

My guess is private vessels in this area requiring search and rescue response can account for a very large proportion of the total annual cost in the event that response is required. This is simply on account of the long distances involved and the special/high cost infrastructure required to undertake those responses and not required elsewhere.

As a guide in 2016/17 year

There were 7,595 incidents and 412 searches were conducted and 159 lives were saved.

Page 62

https://www.amsa.gov.au/sites/default/files/amsa-annual-report-2016-17.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjw19fXyabeAhUIO48KHUCWAT4QFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw0kftFVXkekaQhqfwA9xDXe

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Did anyone see the state of Uku's antifouling yesterday at the Hobart stop off? 

 

Something else to slow him down. I was surprised, I didn't think you would have significant growth on a bottom that's (more or less) constantly moving.

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18 minutes ago, Icedtea said:

Did anyone see the state of Uku's antifouling yesterday at the Hobart stop off? 

 

Something else to slow him down. I was surprised, I didn't think you would have significant growth on a bottom that's (more or less) constantly moving.

If you're going 10 knots consistently - 4~5 is just perfect for a little ecosystem to follow you across the ocean. 

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At times the GGR seems like an Everest expedition.  Underfunding, undertrained, extreme weather risks and so on.

 I wonder how many GGR entrants there would be if they had to provide SAR bonds and pay local governments permit fees before they venture out?

Same conversations play out on climbing forums when an Everest climber buys it - ‘what was he thinking?!’

 

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7 hours ago, Icedtea said:

Did anyone see the state of Uku's antifouling yesterday at the Hobart stop off? 

 

Something else to slow him down. I was surprised, I didn't think you would have significant growth on a bottom that's (more or less) constantly moving.

Lots of things can cause it. Wrong paint formula, wrong type of paint, too hard or too soft etc.. 

I liked Don's comment on facebook that he estimates that it will cost him between 0.5 and 1 knot per hour...... based on that statement Uku will be going backwards after four hours. 

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This linky of a mid year interview of RKJ courtesy  of the RO who I think has a pic of him in his wallet. Then again RKJ might have one likewise of the RO as this race has cast the spotlight upon him.

I have mixed opinions about RKJ however can say this interview is quite good. His answer to the question about absence of technology like GPS was interesting saying how could you miss something which wasn't invented. The current crop however don't have that luxury so you can say they they are encumbered with something to play on their minds which he wasn't.

It is a pity the interviewer didn't ask him about his original decision to carry a rifle? Of all the things to take that was a bit weird. As it transpired he used it to shoot a shark that was preventing him plug a leak externally below the waterline. 

I wonder if any out there now are carrying? If so the RO might be best to done body armour at this drop point?

 

 

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7 hours ago, littlechay said:

Lots of things can cause it. Wrong paint formula, wrong type of paint, too hard or too soft etc.. 

I liked Don's comment on facebook that he estimates that it will cost him between 0.5 and 1 knot per hour...... based on that statement Uku will be going backwards after four hours. 

I readily admit I don't watch the RO's videos...but did he really say "knots per hour"?   Sheesh.

Not to be picky, and your answer is funnier, but wouldn't the proper calculus define the boatspeed as approaching a limit at 0?   Rather than going negative.  (It's been many years since I cracked that book.)

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7 hours ago, littlechay said:

I liked Don's comment on facebook that he estimates that it will cost him between 0.5 and 1 knot per hour...... based on that statement Uku will be going backwards after four hours

LOL

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13 hours ago, blunderfull said:

I wonder how many GGR entrants there would be if they had to provide SAR bonds and pay local governments permit fees before they venture out?

For all our sakes please keep that thought to yourself.

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On 10/27/2018 at 6:23 AM, Miffy said:

The GGW org is about as well resourced as the average yachtie nav desk. 

And the average nav station might have a HF (some even GMDSS capable) that the RO insists everyone has the 1968 voice only version with the exception of himself or a land station relay in place of. That is worthy of mention as Loic stepped off his sinking vessel with a dead Satphone.

I also wonder if the RO has got an exemption for this Hobart tie up from Australian Customs?

19 hours ago, Icedtea said:

Did anyone see the state of Uku's antifouling yesterday at the Hobart stop off? 

I also wonder if the RO has got an exemption for this Hobart tie up from Australian and or Tasmanian State Biosecurity on account it seems hull cleaning in Hobart is on the cards if it can be carried out providing it doesn't entail "outside assistance". In Uku's case it didn't occur as he had no diving mask on board and if he did one assumes it would have happened, along with anyone behind yet to arrive and needing it and kitted out with a mask instead of a rifle. I still can't get over that :-)

The RO appears to be oblivious to some jurisdictions in Australia, particularly those that have a coastal aquacultural industry like Tasmania (very large) that it is against the law for international vessels regardless of size to stop along the coastline and clean their hull on account their vessel could contain marine pests and to do so before clearing first if entering. This sort of law is not peculiar to Aust. In some jurisdictions including Australia they require a clearance certificate to that effect before being allowed entry. That process includes diver inspection of hull and disinfection of all seawater inlets and outlets including pumps.

http://www.agriculture.gov.au/biosecurity/avm/vessels/non-commercial-vessels#the-inspection-process-for-noncommercial-vessels

Aside from the simple Customs breech or relaxation question being unanswered but with zero unauthorised entry impact, only a breech and those wanting to chime in about biosecurity risk. I accept the prospect of waking up to hear tomorrow the GGR has wiped out the Tasmanian abalone, crayfish, oyster or salmon farming industry or the lot overnight  is extremely low, even if all GGR boats did a hull clean.

The point is any RO that doesn't properly plan and properly execute a race operational plan it can very quickly via the media looking for headlines to fuel public/taxpayer perception turn into a catastrofuck and even worldwide for everybody be they racers or cruisers. This can be on many fronts from search and rescue to a wee little marine pest with a unpronounceable name.

Risks being ignored, no matter the risk profile is not the RO's call in some instances. He does not seem to understand that concept and it seems fueled by thinking adventure for adventure sake overides everything, even other people picking up the tab.

Note: Aust Border and Bio Security actually earn a tidy revenue via fines in some clearing ports that have nice well protected anchorages nearby away from civilisation where some international cruisers elect to stop first and wind down for a few days, give the hull a clean first etc before clearing in, including those with pets giving them exercise chasing the local wildlife ashore. In some cases their last runaround as not properly vaccinated are seized and put down upon their masters subsequently clearing in. A customs guy told me for one such locale their weekly sweeps generated sufficient income in fines to cover a large slice of their overheads.He said the majority of the offenders were from the US which he thought strange as coming from a heavy handed/shoot first ask questions later regime compared to Aust. It seemed to him they cast off taking some idea of entitlement and stuff everyone else. I probably should not have added this Note as Moon will now ask for data in XL format to underpin it :-)

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10 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

And the average nav station might have a HF (some even GMDSS capable) that the RO insists everyone has the 1968 voice only version with the exception of himself or a land station relay in place of. That is worthy of mention as Loic stepped off his sinking vessel with a dead Satphone.

I also wonder if the RO has got an exemption for this Hobart tie up from Australian Customs?

I also wonder if the RO has got an exemption for this Hobart tie up from Australian and or Tasmanian State Biosecurity on account it seems hull cleaning in Hobart is on the cards if it can be carried out providing it doesn't entail "outside assistance". In Uku's case it didn't occur as he had no diving mask on board and if he did one assumes it would have happened, along with anyone behind yet to arrive and needing it and kitted out with a mask instead of a rifle. I still can't get over that :-)

The RO appears to be oblivious to some jurisdictions in Australia, particularly those that have a coastal aquacultural industry like Tasmania (very large) that it is against the law for international vessels regardless of size to stop along the coastline and clean their hull on account their vessel could contain marine pests and to do so before clearing first if entering. This sort of law is not peculiar to Aust. In some jurisdictions including Australia they require a clearance certificate to that effect before being allowed entry. That process includes diver inspection of hull and disinfection of all seawater inlets and outlets including pumps.

http://www.agriculture.gov.au/biosecurity/avm/vessels/non-commercial-vessels#the-inspection-process-for-noncommercial-vessels

Aside from the simple Customs breech or relaxation question being unanswered but with zero unauthorised entry impact, only a breech and those wanting to chime in about biosecurity risk. I accept the prospect of waking up to hear tomorrow the GGR has wiped out the Tasmanian abalone, crayfish, oyster or salmon farming industry or the lot overnight  is extremely low, even if all GGR boats did a hull clean.

The point is any RO that doesn't properly plan and properly execute a race operational plan it can very quickly via the media looking for headlines to fuel public/taxpayer perception turn into a catastrofuck and even worldwide for everybody be they racers or cruisers. This can be on many fronts from search and rescue to a wee little marine pest with a unpronounceable name.

Risks being ignored, no matter the risk profile is not the RO's call in some instances. He does not seem to understand that concept and it seems fueled by thinking adventure for adventure sake overides everything, even other people picking up the tab.

Note: Aust Border and Bio Security actually earn a tidy revenue via fines in some clearing ports that have nice well protected anchorages nearby away from civilisation where some international cruisers elect to stop first and wind down for a few days, give the hull a clean first etc before clearing in, including those with pets giving them exercise chasing the local wildlife ashore. In some cases their last runaround as not properly vaccinated are seized and put down upon their masters subsequently clearing in. A customs guy told me for one such locale their weekly sweeps generated sufficient income in fines to cover a large slice of their overheads.He said the majority of the offenders were from the US which he thought strange as coming from a heavy handed/shoot first ask questions later regime compared to Aust. It seemed to him they cast off taking some idea of entitlement and stuff everyone else. I probably should not have added this Note as Moon will now ask for data in XL format to underpin it :-)

And in response !

image.png.4c887c4b4ef709b260b2aaf158a7da4c.png

 

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14 hours ago, Left Shift said:

I readily admit I don't watch the RO's videos...but did he really say "knots per hour"?   Sheesh.

Not to be picky, and your answer is funnier, but wouldn't the proper calculus define the boatspeed as approaching a limit at 0?   Rather than going negative.  (It's been many years since I cracked that book.)

No he wrote it : And yes you could be right about the calculus ... ;)

 

image.thumb.png.33c0cb4d63be5decb2ccc7ff5c07fff4.png

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16 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

It is a pity the interviewer didn't ask him about his original decision to carry a rifle? Of all the things to take that was a bit weird. As it transpired he used it to shoot a shark that was preventing him plug a leak externally below the waterline. 

I wonder if any out there now are carrying? If so the RO might be best to done body armour at this drop point?

 

 

My father did a lot of sailing in the 50’s in PNG and northern Australia. For him guns were a standard  item, like a pocket knife.

3R

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7 minutes ago, Third Reef said:

My father did a lot of sailing in 50’s and PNG and northern Australia. For him guns were a standard  item, like a pocket knife.

3R

Don’t think that was on RKJ original plan on that trip. 

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On 10/28/2018 at 12:27 AM, Icedtea said:

Did anyone see the state of Uku's antifouling yesterday at the Hobart stop off? 

Love Uku’s style. No face mask for diving, one winch, but at least he has clean teeth !

 

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Re biofouling, keep in mind that most Americans who keep dirty boats depart from Panama, scrape bottom anchored off Panama then complain and whine about biosecurity in Galapagos. 

Then leave their boats dirty as hell thru French Polynesia and arrive in Australia or New Zealand expecting it to be some libertarian nonsense and act offended when being asked to comply with local rules. 

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3 hours ago, littlechay said:

And in response !

image.png.4c887c4b4ef709b260b2aaf158a7da4c.png

 

Interesting, Trever Roberts wrote about the same kind of barnacles on his trip from eastern Canada to Australia, anyone know if one bottom paint is more suitable for dealing with them? 

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3 hours ago, jgbrown said:

Interesting, Trever Roberts wrote about the same kind of barnacles on his trip from eastern Canada to Australia, anyone know if one bottom paint is more suitable for dealing with them? 

Probably the most common question going around and everyone will have their favourite product. First that amount of growth is not normal so something is not working properly.

Assuming not a application issue or antifouling was exposed to the the air too long if the hard variety then it is the type of paint. All use copper as the main biocide with addition of some secret sauces but in different quantities and the higher the ratio of copper does not necessarily equate to better protection. There are two main types of antifoul paint, ablative (soft) or hard. The faster a boat goes through the water the harder the coating has to be otherwise it will wear and release the copper biocide too quickly. The harder paint the biocide leaches out slowly via a chemical reaction through contact with the water. The soft or self polishing type relies on erosion caused by the paint being soluble and this is boosted by movement through the water to keep exposing a fresh layer of biocide.

In theory for these slow moving boats they could be equally protected regardless whether a soft or hard type is used. In theory failure can only occur if all the biocide has leached out of a hard coating or it has all been eroded off with a soft coating. With the speed of these boats it is difficult to imagine a quality coating of either type failing in less than 6 months.

My guess is the only cause of failure is as follows. In the case for a hard coating the contact surface with water has been sealed off somehow. This could be a man made contaminant in the water though unlikely or a natural build up of slime slowing the chemical reaction and reducing the rate of the biocide leaching. This process then snowballs as growth takes hold. It is important to regularly scrub hard coatings for this reason. For the soft coating it is a case of a fresh layer not being exposed somehow and allowing growth to take hold.

So my guess if a hard coating then the product used relies on some vessel speed or cleaning to stop the contact area from being sealed off. Similarly if a soft coating the product used relies on movement and not just it being soluble. However this is more likely for a formulation that sits in between soft and hard and is designed to erode at a much slower rate and be more durable.

If I was to pick a culprit my guess it is the hard variety formulation as this application is ideal for the vast majority of ablative or soft coatings on the market that don't rely on a regular clean.

 

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1 minute ago, jack_sparrow said:

Probably the most common question going aroundband and everyone will have their favourite product. First that amount of growth is not normal so something is wrong.

Assuming not a application issue or antifouling was exposed to the the air too long if the hard variety then it is the type of paint. All use copper as the main biocide with addition of some secret sauces but in different quantities and the higher the ratio of copper does not necessarily equate to better protection. There are two main types of antifoul paint, ablative (soft) or hard. The faster a boat goes the harder the coating has to be otherwise it will wear and release the copper biocide too quickly. The harder paint the copper leaches out slowly via a chemical reaction through contact with the water. The soft or self polishing type relies on erosion caused by the paint being soluble and this is boosted by movement through the water to keep exposing a fresh layer of biocide.

In theory for these slow moving boats they could be equally protected regardless whether a soft or hard type is used. In theory failure can only occur if all the biocide has leached out of a hard coating or it has all been eroded off with a soft coating. With the speed of these boats it is difficult to imagine a quality coating of either type failing in less than 6 months.

My guess is the only cause of failure is as follows. In the case for a hard coating the contact surface with water has been sealed off somehow. This could be manmade contaminant in the water though unlikely or a natural build up of slime slowing the chemical reaction and reducing the rate of biocide leaching. This process then snowballs as growth takes hold. For the soft coating it is a case of a fresh layer not being exposed somehow and allowing growth to take hold.

So my guess if a hard coating then the product used relies on some vessel speed to stop the contact area from being sealed off. Similarly if a soft coating the product used relies on movement and not just it being soluble. However this is more likely a formulation that sits in between soft and hard and is designed to erode at a much slower rate and be more durable.

If I was to pick a culprit my guess it is the hard variety as this application suits the vast majority of ablative or soft coatings.

 

Very interesting and well thought out reasoning, I'm curious what they are using.  I would've expected ablative for sure on boats this slow, but I wonder now.  I also thought it might be specific to the region given that the other case I'd read of it happening was heading them same way. 

I have had good luck with Interspeed 640, need to get it in the water quick after coating to getting in the water and is very soft, but it seems very effective on growth, dries very fast with a wide temperature window.  So multiple layers isn't an issue and seems quite effective(at under 100$/gallon).   Only ever found it in black and 5 gallon buckets.

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JG no one environment is the same and it is no coincidence some brand formulations work better in one area and visa versa. Your own experience and that of others in that locale is far more reliable a guide than the marketing attached to the latest release from the manufacturer or someone else's experience even just around the corner in a different environment. For these guys unfortunately their environment is changing all the time making selection that much more difficult. From what we have seen some got it right and some didn't.

It seems copper is going the way of tin biocides and will be banned pretty soon in most countries putting us behind the eightball again on coming up with selecting what works best. I am not looking forward to that.

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6 hours ago, Third Reef said:

My father did a lot of sailing in the 50’s in PNG and northern Australia. For him guns were a standard  item, like a pocket knife.

3R

3rd you are here so he obviously was carrying a decent calibre.

images (95).jpeg

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5 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

JG no one environment is the same and it is no coincidence some brand formulations work better in one area and visa versa. Your own experience and that of others in that locale is far more reliable a guide than the marketing attached to the latest release from the manufacturer or someone else's experience even just around the corner in a different environment. For these guys unfortunately their environment is changing all the time making selection that much more difficult. From what we have seen some got it right and some didn't.

It seems copper is going the way of tin biocides and will be banned pretty soon in most countries putting us behind the eightball again on coming up with selecting what works best. I am not looking forward to that.

Very true, the 640 has been good mostly(I suspect) because it's cheap and wears so fast so nothing sticks for long even if it gets growth at the dock, where it does tend to get slimy around the waterline faster than say CSC does.    After two years it is pretty common to have thin spots in my experience even with 3 coats.   Reduces long term buildup, scrapes off very easily.  Useless in places that haul for the winter, but AFAIK it's main use is on big ships so not an issue for them.  Certainly not a one size fits all anywhere in the world, but for the price and ease of application/easiest removal of hard growth I've ever seen/ easy removal of paint later, it's what I'll probably end up using on my own boat(and may have to stock up on a few 5 gallon tins before it's banned).   Downsides are it's the most noxious 1 part paint I've ever dealt with and not useful for seasonal boats.   (unless that can of Trilux with TBT calls my name too loudly...kidding). 

I hope I get to retire before the end of copper paints, I had one experience with a customer who insisted on one of the new eco friendly paints.   It was NOT a good one for anyone involved(except the manufacturer).  

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These boats, for all intents, have effectively been tied to a dock in 60° to 80° water since the start of the race.  Tidal currents run faster through some marinas than these guys are sailing.  The only thing I can think of that would clean these boat bottoms is diving on them with scrapers.  But, no scrapers and no masks.  Clearly JDVH isn't being slowed down too much.  Nor is Slats.  I wonder if their (very slight) additional speed is helping them keep cleaner or what they have as their bottom paint.  JVDH is not one to go half-measures on that.

Clearly speed is the critical element to staying clean.  I recall the VO65 seeming to be spotless when they were hauled out after their longer legs.  Still only three weeks or so, and they were hitting the mid-20s often, but I don't think they had any anti-fouling on at all.  

On my boats, up here in the PNW, I use a very hard paint (Baltoplate) and dive every three weeks in the summer and every 6 weeks in the dark season.  

Might be time to invest in a bottom scrubbing business if copper is banned.  

 

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2 hours ago, jgbrown said:

I hope I get to retire before the end of copper paints, I had one experience with a customer who insisted on one of the new eco friendly paints.   It was NOT a good one for anyone involved(except the manufacturer).  

I didn't include this in the above anftifoul types as it most definitely is not being used by anyone who has a problem and it is actually more a copper sheath like the timber boats of old and used to keep borers at bay. It is ironicaly the most environmentally friendly of all types which goes against the traditional code of coatings.

It is called "Coppercoat" and consists of copper powder stirred into epoxy at time of application over bare material/gelcoat. It’s rolled on in multiple layers to around 12mls thick. It is then sanded to reveal essentialy a copper sheath. It is also acts as a barrier coat for those with osmosis concerns.

One downside is it has none of the non copper biocides that stop slime build up found in traditional antifouling. So it does need polishing from time to but that is all. It is as expensive as hell but will last a decade maybe longer with say a typical corrosion rate of 0.25 mil per year. You could describe it as a "hard slow ablative" coating without  the drying out issues of other coatings.

It is classified as non-leaching by environmental agencies however I don't know if this means it will survive the pending copper ban or not.

If you had the money this would be the coating of choice for this race or for a long distance cruiser. It only has one colour where it oxidises to that copper verdigris green look. Might be worth checking GGR boat pictures to see if anyone has splurged out.

PS. I just noticed that the RO said Uku's antifoul issues were towards the rear of the boat which reinforces my guess that it is a hard coating that is maybe high in copper but undercooked in the non-copper biocides necessary to keep slime at bay and the coating leaching system working. The more vertical forward sections more open to self cleaning by motion/wave action. He might be paying the price for not diving when last opportunity presented itself before rounding CT.

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Would be fairly straight forward to use circuit board plating tech to put on a few mils of copper.  Anybody try that?

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33 minutes ago, Kenny Dumas said:

Would be fairly straight forward to use circuit board plating tech to put on a few mils of copper.  Anybody try that?

Kenny don't ask me what form the copper is, but it is not a conductor. If it did it would turn your boat into a galvanic nightmare.

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Kenny don't ask me what form the copper is, but it is not a conductor. If it did it would turn your boat into a galvanic nightmare.

I believe it is metallic copper which is of course a very good conductor, but if the individual copper granules are all suspended in an epoxy which has wetted all the surface, then the granules are electrically isolated from each other. If this is the case