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The 2018 Golden Globe Race

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14 minutes ago, Joakim said:

The predicted winds are quite chaotic and most likely will the predictions will be far from spot on.

Such is life.

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2 hours ago, Joakim said:

It looks very interesting! According to Windy prediction in the tracker (GFS) VDH will get quite nicely to Azores. It's interesting to see will how he'll choose his course to the Azores. It seems he will be free to choose how much east or west he sails. Then around 21st it gets much trickier to continue after the Azores. Looks like beating on port tack, which does not favor his rig failure. Then he will have dead headwind towards finish.

Slats will be on a beat most of the time and thus also can choose his track east or west.

I wouldn't really know what to do if I was one of them. The predicted winds are quite chaotic and most likely will the predictions will be far from spot on.

Looks like Slats will also go West of the high, so basically following VDH route at this poing and will lose  his East split.

But indeed after the 21st will be tricky with headwind for quite sometime

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4 minutes ago, yl75 said:

Looks like Slats will also go West of the high, so basically following VDH route at this poing and will lose  his East split

Looks like he going through a transition and got headed so flopped over onto starboard tack. Should flop back when through.

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The RO has no control over anyt "the radio activities of ENTRANTS in the GGR other than requiring all entrants to have a mandatory licensed Marine HF SSB radio and call sign and a valid Marine Radio Operators license. GGR is not involved with organizing or participating in any Ham Radio broadcasts or weather reports. "

I was surpriced to find this

Quote

https://www.facebook.com/1751709878415736/posts/2204554199797966 on comments
Golden Globe Race: Our clear response has always been that GGR has nothing to do with organizing or participating in any HAM network for GGR entrants...yes we knew the frequency and times but do not deliver that to anyone as too many people may get on that frequency causing disruption and it is not our responsibility. GGR does not even organize any scheduled weather reporting on any radio Marine or Ham as that is part of the challenge of the GGR as it was in 1968.

Always a good idea to check when something is tried to cover up. 2 hours ago on the forbidden frequency: Weather forecast for VDH and he was also transmitting.

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Fuck Tex 

22 minutes ago, Texcom said:

Always a good idea to check when something is tried to cover up. 

Tex you do know your giving Don McBossyface tech nightmares.

1179418_1.jpg

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3 hours ago, Texcom said:

The RO has no control over anyt "the radio activities of ENTRANTS in the GGR other than requiring all entrants to have a mandatory licensed Marine HF SSB radio and call sign and a valid Marine Radio Operators license. GGR is not involved with organizing or participating in any Ham Radio broadcasts or weather reports. "

I was surpriced to find this

Always a good idea to check when something is tried to cover up. 2 hours ago on the forbidden frequency: Weather forecast for VDH and he was also transmitting.

But this is allowed, right?  Provided that VDH (or whomever) has a valid ham license (if tx’ing on those freqs), and no routing is provided?  Sportsmanlike conduct required...

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5 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Looks like he going through a transition and got headed so flopped over onto starboard tack. Should flop back when through.

Too late now, and west of the the high best route for him anyway it seems (but losing the option).

Would be interesting to know which weather knowledge he has exactly

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3 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

But this is allowed, right?  Provided that VDH (or whomever) has a valid ham license (if tx’ing on those freqs), and no routing is provided?  Sportsmanlike conduct required...

The world would be quite a different place if international waters were wild west. Ships sail under laws of a flag state. Call sign VDH uses isn't registered in St. Lucia (and even it was it isn't generally valid on a french ship.). As well, beside NOR also radio regulations state that a valid license must be at hand when using transmitter.

According to RO, both presented false information, after that it isn't a question of RO "has nothing to do with anything" but treating both with same judgement in spirit of ggr68 and sportsmanlike.

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If in the future, the world collapses into a dystopian quagmire (kind of like this race), would there still be an agency somewhere monitoring and calling out illegal operators?

MC1X23:  Help, Please help we are trapped behind a flowing river of lava heading towards us!
OVERLORDS:  You have violated HAM Radio frequencies with an illegal call sign.  Punishment is death...oh wait....never mind.

Given the level of Clusterfuckedness that has surrounded this race, that only now is this an "issue", let em do what they want/need till the cross the finish.  Some country agency will fine them, but then that's the price for bending the rules.

of course the RO will at some point pontificate, cite some NOR/SI/GCs (that's Globe Commandments, never seen, but required reading), hem and haw and consider a penalty; although the box is getting further and further away according to the racing incantations.  But no matter, the RO will just magically adjust the box and tell them what to do to make the adventure exciting.

Out four days with the flu and I miss all the excitement about radio infractions...wow.  I did love the spectrum graph.  That was cool.

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44 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

MC1X23:  Help, Please help we are trapped behind a flowing river of lava heading towards us!

OVERLORDS:  You have violated HAM Radio frequencies with an illegal call sign.  Punishment is death...oh wait....never mind.

It's distress trafic, no callsign required in this world. I share your concern of the future world, but instead of an agency it's more frightining if people will monitor eatchother. Quite likely the ham team of entrant X busted entrant Y. Team Z busted entrant X.

45 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

let em do what they want/need till the cross the finish.

I generally agree with you on this, but the RO is too involved instead of "has nothing to do with anything". Entrant X is unlikely to be fined by his authority, instead the RO tells on facebook "don't share the frequency X uses".

People mostly talk about ham radio and weather forecasts. Much bigger advantage is the social context. When they were sailing to south on Atlantic they didn't use radio that much. Month by month they talked more and more, for hours. While on Indian Ocean and Pacific Susie, Slats and Uku had great daily Maritime HF skeds, often other boats (Socrates etc) joined. They also talked with hams a lot. Entrant X has still this advantage, Y doesn't.

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1 hour ago, bucc5062 said:

If in the future, the world collapses into a dystopian quagmire (kind of like this race), would there still be an agency somewhere monitoring and calling out illegal operators?

MC1X23:  Help, Please help we are trapped behind a flowing river of lava heading towards us!
OVERLORDS:  You have violated HAM Radio frequencies with an illegal call sign.  Punishment is death...oh wait....never mind

If there is massive lava flow at the end of the world, there will probably be massive volcanic eruptions, in which case the huge voltages created by volcanic lightning will fuck up radio propagation conditions big time, so no one will be able to go on the radio.

:-) 

See, on volcanic high voltage: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_lightning

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This is feeling a bit like the old times in communications.  We don't know what Slats knows about the weather or relative position of VDH, and we don't know if he got headed over the last 24 hours or if he decided to fall off to go West of the Azores high.  If Slats did make a decision to go around, we don't know if that's because he found out how far West he needed to go, or if he decided against the upwind course.  These are Rumsfeld's "known unknowns" and there are surely "unknown unknowns" but Slats comment that he wants to withdraw from the "event" unless he gets weather information gives some clue.

The forecast is starting to look pretty bad for VDH, no longer a straight down hill run and likely bringing the wind over the weak side of his rig.  As we pass beyond 200 days on the trip, I'm reminded that VHD sailed solo the wrong way around in "just" 122 days, still the record.  Looking ahead to France, I see the boat that took him around is for sale.  Maud is a motivated seller too!

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2001/gilles-vaton-gamelin-aluminium-monohull-2753824/?refSource=enhanced listing

 

 

4788885_20180728040708278_1_XLARGE.jpg

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6 hours ago, Texcom said:

According to RO, both presented false information, after that it isn't a question of RO "has nothing to do with anything" but treating both with same judgement in spirit of ggr68 and sportsmanlike.

Tex you raise an interesting rules point. However you are wrong thinking this is just a sportsmanlike issue. It is now a clear case of a GGR rules breech and one not being prosecuted by the Race Organiser/Race Committee (RO/RC). To explain so there is no misunderstanding.

Many will remember at the time of the Kopar Wind Vane/Verdes incident Don McBoathead waxed lyrical about this race not using or relying on the Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS) but solely the NOR to be able to capture the spirit of 1968. Many here incl my self were very critical of that approach as those rules have taken decades of fine tuning to accommodate varying circumstances. Most importantly underpinning them is the concept this is a self policing sport. 

As it turned out it seems he drafted his version in his sleep with variations and or additions made up on the go in response to incidents, including penalties pulled out of his arse. These were not determined by a Jury as nominated by the NOR, a body whose membership never assembled or ever convened to date.

So to the rules he drafted with regard to this matter with my emphasis.

NOTICE OF RACE

Part 1: Skipper. A. First aid course certificate, B. Survival course certificate, C. Signed medical test certificate and pathology results (FORM TBA 28th FEB. 2018), D. Family doctor details, E. Marine Radio operators license, F. Ships Radio station license and call sign, G. Ham license if applicable.

NOR 4.4 License
Each Entrant must hold all licences and registration certificates required by their national authority (Shown on the yachts registration papers) including but not limited to, Boat operators licence, Radio operator's license for all types equipment fitted, Radio station License, EPIRB and PLB reg. certificates and Boat registration papers. French Entrants do not need any FFV Licenses.

First if this race was being conducted under the RRS the general principles would apply.

1. Whether the above rules were or were not the subject of checks, special notices or briefings by the Race Committee (RC), it is the competitors responsibility to ensure they comply.

2. For a protest by the RC to be deemed valid they can't just rely on a complaint by a competitor (who doesn't protest) but have to make their own investigations. This is to encourage self policing by competitors where they can't rely on a RC to do their dirty work and similarly a RC can't simply step into a competitors shoes relying solely on that competitor evidence.

Now independent of the RRS with regard to this incident of Heede and Slats both not being in compliance with the NOR by having falsified HAM licences.

1. At this juncture the RC is well aware of this infraction having obtained information from various sources independent of any competitor. The RC is clearly in a position to lodge a valid protest and have the matter determined.

2. The RC has declared (via FB post) it has not elected to protest on the grounds the RC has no interest in competitor's "use" complying or not with regard to HAM equipment. That alone is correct as the NOR makes no specific mention of "use". This is quite normal in offshore racing where equipment inclusion may be mandated, but it's use also has to be mandated to have any effect. For example AIS trancievers carried but not turned on unless stated.

3. However what the RC has failed to address with that response is the "absence" of the proper licences contrary to the NOR which should be the subject of a RC protest(s) against at least these two competitors on account of the evidence it now has to hand. Even if competitors were to correct the issue mid race, it is too late, the breech of the rules/NOR has occured.

4. With both competitors in breech a competitor protest over this matter under self policing disappeared at the start line for at least these two competitors. In the absence of a RC protest now, one competitor is now advantaged and one is not. This is on account one has received a notice to discontinue use of a false HAM callsign/licence by their national licencing authority, the other hasn't and continues to transmit.

5. To conclude even without relying on the RRS, the RO/RC by allowing the race to continue without protests against both competitors, the RC is clearly giving advantage to one competitor over another and in breech of its own race rules.

If the RRS applied then in all probability a 3rd Party protest would be lodged with World Sailing/National Body against the RO/RC under Rule 69 for "bringing the sport into disrepute". It is actually not inconcievable for such a protest to be prosecuted "in principle" even though the race is outside the auspices of World Sailing. A ban on WS members competing in subsequent GGR races could apply for instance. This is quite common in sport, in fact swimming bodies have just issued such a competitor directive.

It should be pretty clear to everyone now that the absence of the RRS applying to the GGR was not for the purposes of simplicity, but the RO's fear of what they contained and implications regarding the sport as a whole.

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15 hours ago, yl75 said:

Looks like Slats will also go West of the high, so basically following VDH route at this poing and will lose  his East split.

But indeed after the 21st will be tricky with headwind for quite sometime

 

15 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Looks like he going through a transition and got headed so flopped over onto starboard tack. Should flop back when through.

 

10 hours ago, yl75 said:

Too late now, and west of the the high best route for him anyway it seems (but losing the option).

 

1 hour ago, tama_manu said:

We don't know what Slats knows about the weather or relative position of VDH, and we don't know if he got headed over the last 24 hours or if he decided to fall off to go West of the Azores high.  If Slats did make a decision to go around, we don't know if that's because he found out how far West he needed to go, or if he decided against the upwind course.  These are Rumsfeld's "known unknowns" and there are surely "unknown unknowns"

Systems move so saying Slats is intending to follow Heede west based on a short term COG west of a system north that is moving east is gobblygook. Slats enjoys 300 mile of leverage, he is not going to give that up by bearing off to a TWA with not that much extra BS on these things to justify the change.

Therefore what they are experiencing on the race course after a reasonable time has expired is no Rumsfeld guess. They are both experiencing transitions at the moment. Contrary to their longitude position they are both on the wrong tack, Heede now on port, Slats now on starboard. With advanced weather and  relative positional information at their disposal, some could argue Heede is now putting on a "cover".

Question is how long do current COG's last, potentially turning this back into follow the leader?

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3 hours ago, tama_manu said:

This is feeling a bit like the old times in communications.  We don't know what Slats knows about the weather or relative position of VDH, and we don't know if he got headed over the last 24 hours or if he decided to fall off to go West of the Azores high.  If Slats did make a decision to go around, we don't know if that's because he found out how far West he needed to go, or if he decided against the upwind course.  These are Rumsfeld's "known unknowns" and there are surely "unknown unknowns" but Slats comment that he wants to withdraw from the "event" unless he gets weather information gives some clue.

The forecast is starting to look pretty bad for VDH, no longer a straight down hill run and likely bringing the wind over the weak side of his rig.  As we pass beyond 200 days on the trip, I'm reminded that VHD sailed solo the wrong way around in "just" 122 days, still the record.  Looking ahead to France, I see the boat that took him around is for sale.  Maud is a motivated seller too!

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2001/gilles-vaton-gamelin-aluminium-monohull-2753824/?refSource=enhanced listing

 

 

4788885_20180728040708278_1_XLARGE.jpg

Screw the GGR - I want THAT :-). If I sold my house, I’d still have some leftover, market has done well the past 5 years...what am I waiting for... :-)

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10 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

If there is massive lava flow at the end of the world, there will probably be massive volcanic eruptions, in which case the huge voltages created by volcanic lightning will fuck up radio propagation conditions big time, so no one will be able to go on the radio.

:-) 

See, on volcanic high voltage: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_lightning

Well it will definitely fry everyone's AIS TX but nothing else :) 

 

 

 

Apologies - cross thread contamination...

Edited by JMore

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10 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Screw the GGR - I want THAT :-). If I sold my house, I’d still have some leftover, market has done well the past 5 years...what am I waiting for... :-)

Does it come with the sponsorship? ;-)

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Looking at the tracker this morning, it seems JLH is getting one more assist from the angels.  He's on the left side of that high with the wind on his back.  Mark looks like he's running right into the center of the hole.....Ouch!  Maybe JL can add to the cushion.

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1 hour ago, bucc5062 said:

Looking at the tracker this morning, it seems JLH is getting one more assist from the angels

Ripper VMG but not sure that easting now matches his approach plan.

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And Regarding an aluminium yacht that has beaten around the Southern Ocean: No. Hell no.

Aluminum fatigues to zero strength. Do a short experiment with an aluminum can. Even small amount of flex, hundreds of thousands of times, does it in. One lap around the planet upwind over 120 days is 12 x 60 x 24 x 120 = over 2 million. The boat would need to be very over built, with a design impulse load of under 10ksi, to be reliable, and any welds would be quite dangerous. Consider that absolutely no part will be an inch thick! Quarter inch thick, 2500 lbs stress... Steady loads might be less without headstay tension, bit the impulse (shock) loads from each and every wave with upwind rigging and sheet loads will be much higher. And of course, there WILL be corrosion weak spots too.

If it was steel or fiberglass, a different story.

 

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1 hour ago, carcrash said:

And Regarding an aluminium yacht that has beaten around the Southern Ocean: No. Hell no....

..If it was steel or fiberglass, a different story.

Complete bollocks.

PS. In reply I had to dice out the body of your post starting with the monocoque construction of a beer can because simply copying it would have caused me to throw up in my mouth again.

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16 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

They are both experiencing transitions at the moment...

Question is how long do current COG's last, potentially turning this back into follow the leader?

The maths teacher has finally busted out of that transition and now trucking north as per his approach plan. The Dutch Rower still glued stuck on starboard tack where any chance of a VMG short cut to the east for the next week of weather looks gone. It is now follow the leader and their delta is now going to go north at a rate of knots.

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17 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Tex you raise an interesting rules point. However you are wrong thinking this is just a sportsmanlike issue. It is now a clear case of a GGR rules breech and one not being prosecuted by the Race Organiser/Race Committee (RO/RC). To explain so there is no misunderstanding.

Many will remember at the time of the Kopar Wind Vane/Verdes incident Don McBoathead waxed lyrical about this race not using or relying on the Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS) but solely the NOR to be able to capture the spirit of 1968. Many here incl my self were very critical of that approach as those rules have taken decades of fine tuning to accommodate varying circumstances. Most importantly underpinning them is the concept this is a self policing sport. 

As it turned out it seems he drafted his version in his sleep with variations and or additions made up on the go in response to incidents, including penalties pulled out of his arse. These were not determined by a Jury as nominated by the NOR, a body whose membership never assembled or ever convened to date.

So to the rules he drafted with regard to this matter with my emphasis.

NOTICE OF RACE

Part 1: Skipper. A. First aid course certificate, B. Survival course certificate, C. Signed medical test certificate and pathology results (FORM TBA 28th FEB. 2018), D. Family doctor details, E. Marine Radio operators license, F. Ships Radio station license and call sign, G. Ham license if applicable.

NOR 4.4 License
Each Entrant must hold all licences and registration certificates required by their national authority (Shown on the yachts registration papers) including but not limited to, Boat operators licence, Radio operator's license for all types equipment fitted, Radio station License, EPIRB and PLB reg. certificates and Boat registration papers. French Entrants do not need any FFV Licenses.

First if this race was being conducted under the RRS the general principles would apply.

1. Whether the above rules were or were not the subject of checks, special notices or briefings by the Race Committee (RC), it is the competitors responsibility to ensure they comply.

2. For a protest by the RC to be deemed valid they can't just rely on a complaint by a competitor (who doesn't protest) but have to make their own investigations. This is to encourage self policing by competitors where they can't rely on a RC to do their dirty work and similarly a RC can't simply step into a competitors shoes relying solely on that competitor evidence.

Now independent of the RRS with regard to this incident of Heede and Slats both not being in compliance with the NOR by having falsified HAM licences.

1. At this juncture the RC is well aware of this infraction having obtained information from various sources independent of any competitor. The RC is clearly in a position to lodge a valid protest and have the matter determined.

2. The RC has declared (via FB post) it has not elected to protest on the grounds the RC has no interest in competitor's "use" complying or not with regard to HAM equipment. That alone is correct as the NOR makes no specific mention of "use". This is quite normal in offshore racing where equipment inclusion may be mandated, but it's use also has to be mandated to have any effect. For example AIS trancievers carried but not turned on unless stated.

3. However what the RC has failed to address with that response is the "absence" of the proper licences contrary to the NOR which should be the subject of a RC protest(s) against at least these two competitors on account of the evidence it now has to hand. Even if competitors were to correct the issue mid race, it is too late, the breech of the rules/NOR has occured.

4. With both competitors in breech a competitor protest over this matter under self policing disappeared at the start line for at least these two competitors. In the absence of a RC protest now, one competitor is now advantaged and one is not. This is on account one has received a notice to discontinue use of a false HAM callsign/licence by their national licencing authority, the other hasn't and continues to transmit.

5. To conclude even without relying on the RRS, the RO/RC by allowing the race to continue without protests against both competitors, the RC is clearly giving advantage to one competitor over another and in breech of its own race rules.

If the RRS applied then in all probability a 3rd Party protest would be lodged with World Sailing/National Body against the RO/RC under Rule 69 for "bringing the sport into disrepute". It is actually not inconcievable for such a protest to be prosecuted "in principle" even though the race is outside the auspices of World Sailing. A ban on WS members competing in subsequent GGR races could apply for instance. This is quite common in sport, in fact swimming bodies have just issued such a competitor directive.

It should be pretty clear to everyone now that the absence of the RRS applying to the GGR was not for the purposes of simplicity, but the RO's fear of what they contained and implications regarding the sport as a whole.

Well this is comprehensive, I guess the RO is still spelling it as he is keeping radiosilence about the issue. Poor guy, he'll have one more issue tomorrow.

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On 1/14/2019 at 2:27 PM, LeoV said:

How comfortable will VDH be with a spinnaker on a damaged rig ?

It is kite time now, do you figure he is using it?  It seems windy enough now to make 6 kts with white sails, but transitions are coming

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10 minutes ago, tama_manu said:

It is kite time now, do you figure he is using it? 

Higher risk of sticking a pole in the water with a kite/less stability in all but a flat sea state and ending it there? I really doubt it.

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2 hours ago, Texcom said:

Poor guy, he'll have one more issue tomorrow.

What? Speaking German?

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3 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Complete bollocks.

Thankfully, nobody needs to depend upon your thinking besides for the humor, which many of us enjoy. Keep it up, Jack!

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6 hours ago, carcrash said:

And Regarding an aluminium yacht that has beaten around the Southern Ocean: No. Hell no.

Aluminum fatigues to zero strength. Do a short experiment with an aluminum can. Even small amount of flex, hundreds of thousands of times, does it in. One lap around the planet upwind over 120 days is 12 x 60 x 24 x 120 = over 2 million. The boat would need to be very over built, with a design impulse load of under 10ksi, to be reliable, and any welds would be quite dangerous. Consider that absolutely no part will be an inch thick! Quarter inch thick, 2500 lbs stress... Steady loads might be less without headstay tension, bit the impulse (shock) loads from each and every wave with upwind rigging and sheet loads will be much higher. And of course, there WILL be corrosion weak spots too.

If it was steel or fiberglass, a different story.

 

Dang..So that aluminum 54'er that I raced to Hawaii on, after sailing once around the SO and then up to Jolly Old England for the Fastnet and then back to OZ and then back up to SF and then to Hawaii (with me on board) and then back to OZ was about to turn into a bent beer can at any moment?  Yikes!.  Must be a miracle  that it's still racing the S2H 20 years later.  Who knew!  Good thing it's never hit any waves.  

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8 hours ago, carcrash said:

Thankfully, nobody needs to depend upon your thinking besides for the humor, which many of us enjoy. Keep it up, Jack!

OK. Can you please give us all a tip on which aluminium aircraft that we need to have parachutes in our carry on luggage?

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11 hours ago, Left Shift said:

Dang..So that aluminum 54'er that I raced to Hawaii on, after sailing once around the SO and then up to Jolly Old England for the Fastnet and then back to OZ and then back up to SF and then to Hawaii (with me on board) and then back to OZ was about to turn into a bent beer can at any moment?  Yikes!.  Must be a miracle  that it's still racing the S2H 20 years later.  Who knew!  Good thing it's never hit any waves.  

Flyer II is also build in aluminum...

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2 hours ago, daan62 said:

Flyer II is also build in aluminum...

I think Flyer II was one of the first alloy builds Huisman's did over 35 years ago utilising cutting alloy plate underwater to minimise distortion.

This their latest alloy beast is due for launch next year and being in build now for two years. At 81m / 266ft this 3 masted schooner is their largest alloy hull build to date and will be the largest alloy sailing vessel in the world.

They must have been crazy not to have consulted with at @carcrash first before embarking on half a century of alloy boat building after first starting building in steel around 15 years before that.

 

 

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Do my eyes deceive me?  I haven’t really been following GGR closely, mostly the front-end slow-mo duel between VDH and Slats, being only dimly aware that Istvan and Uku were much farther south in the Atlantic, remembering that Jeanne Socrates had been in radio contact with Uku several weeks ago when they were both approaching the Horn to round it...

Then, glancing quickly over the tracker, my eyes happened to catch a little pale yellow triangle deep in the South Pacific, perhaps a thousand miles west of Cape Horn.  RKJ?  Gregor or Susie or Tomy’s abandoned boats? Oh, right, Tapio!  I’d forgotten about that guy!  Unbelievable he’s still there, going so slowly, and that he will have enough (?) provisions on board to last until Les Sables...ETA?!!

I can imagine VDH and others with lots of experience knowing how to plan and provision, taking into account contingencies...but Tapio will be months behind the leaders...how can he have enough food on board at around his current speed (3.7 kts)?

Punta Arenas, Chile (where he’s currently far west of) to La Rochelle, France = 7010nm = 73 days at 4 kts...barnacles growing, perhaps slowing him more...so he’s got a long time to go...(and GGR reported yesterday that his radio’s tuner is currently down).

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So slats is motoring at hte moment, he saved enough for 2 days some believe here.

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On 1/19/2019 at 5:42 AM, carcrash said:

And Regarding an aluminium yacht that has beaten around the Southern Ocean: No. Hell no.

Aluminum fatigues to zero strength. Do a short experiment with an aluminum can. Even small amount of flex, hundreds of thousands of times, does it in. One lap around the planet upwind over 120 days is 12 x 60 x 24 x 120 = over 2 million. The boat would need to be very over built, with a design impulse load of under 10ksi, to be reliable, and any welds would be quite dangerous. Consider that absolutely no part will be an inch thick! Quarter inch thick, 2500 lbs stress... Steady loads might be less without headstay tension, bit the impulse (shock) loads from each and every wave with upwind rigging and sheet loads will be much higher. And of course, there WILL be corrosion weak spots too.

If it was steel or fiberglass, a different story.

 

On my old aluminium ride I did abot 75k NM in the Southern Ocean...  Most of it actually in the Southern Ocean.  That boat will now have done circa 375k miles... Not bad for a beer can. 

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^^^^ Interesting it takes an Italian publication with no skin in the game to look under the hood. My guess the others and particularly the French are hiding under the blanket.

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8 hours ago, littlechay said:

On my old aluminium ride I did abot 75k NM in the Southern Ocean...  Most of it actually in the Southern Ocean.  That boat will now have done circa 375k miles... Not bad for a beer can. 

Unfortunately mate you are one for understatement. For @carcrash to get the message you need to include your pictures.

IMG_20190120_135805.jpg

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" #GGR2018 Mark Slats may have run out of fuel? but in a good position now to hold Jean Luc Van Den Heede. " ????

In a good position to hold VDH in the first place? VDH has 160 M less DTF and is sailing 7.2 knots towards the finish. Slats is doing 2.2 knots with almost zero VMG.

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15 hours ago, littlechay said:

So this stuff is a big deal, it appears to include audio of VDH getting routing advice via Ham radio.

Does anyone know a way to translate the article or the audio link?

Then Don responds saying he has no evidence, when the audio link is there in the article.

It has been clear that VDH has been getting routing assistance for a while, if the audio link supports this he should be a disq.

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9 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

So this stuff is a big deal, it appears to include audio of VDH getting routing advice via Ham radio.

Does anyone know a way to translate the article or the audio link?

Then Don responds saying he has no evidence, when the audio link is there in the article.

It has been clear that VDH has been getting routing assistance for a while, if the audio link supports this he should be a disq.

What is routing? In the translated text they talk about detailed individual weather information, not about giving the best route to sail.

It's OK to provide weather. It's not allowed to provide route information from a routing software. There certainly is some grey area between these.

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An experienced sailor like VDH can make his own decisions once he has detailed weather forecasts, it’s still routing to me..

 

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38 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

An experienced sailor like VDH can make his own decisions once he has detailed weather forecasts, it’s still routing to me..

 

But that was deemed not to be routing many months ago by Don.

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I was told VDH got Slats position on Friday. No confirmation.

Recording of the begin of VDH weather sked (HAM radio) today 08.45 GMT https://instaud.io/3chn VDH is too weak to be heard but he gets (1.00 - 2.25 min) DTF's from the tracker and i guess distances to finish line and between boats and some other info(which is?). As a math teacher, he can easily do the math. 
VDH is still transmitting even he doesn't have HAM license.

Tracker:
Slats:speed: 2.1 knots @ 338.62° Position at: 20 Jan 2019 08:00 UTC Lat/Lon: 34° 47.03 N, 027° 20.44 W DTF: 1350.0 NM Distance (last 24hrs): 66 NM
VDH :Speed: 7.2 knots @   48.54° Position at: 20 Jan 2019 10:00 UTC Lat/Lon: 40° 34.90 N, 027° 52.39 W DTF: 1182.6 NM

Quote

NOR 3.1.3.3:  GPS Positions from GGR Tracker and AIS Marine Traffic.
GPS co-ordinates of GGR entrants from the GGR Live tracker or AIS Marine Traffic are forbidden to entrants.
1st offence: 48hrs time penalty
2nd offence: Disqualification

 

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Getting DTF and distance between boats is not the same as getting GPS coordinates. All boats used to get coordinates until it was clearly said to be against the rules.

I don't know what is allowed and what is not. Can e.g. distance and bearing from some fixed point or boat to boat be given? What about more vague information e.g. about 100 M north? None of these are coordinates, but coordinates can be calculated from them at some accuracy. And all that is based on the tracker.

I guess the bar to give additional penalties or even more so DSQ is very high now. 

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4 hours ago, Joakim said:

What is routing? In the translated text they talk about detailed individual weather information, not about giving the best route to sail.

It's OK to provide weather. It's not allowed to provide route information from a routing software. There certainly is some grey area between these.

Mate your point being other than the rules for this race are horseshit (both prescribed and then interpreted by the RO) is what? I'm lost.

 

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4 hours ago, Joakim said:

What is routing? In the translated text they talk about detailed individual weather information, not about giving the best route to sail.

It's OK to provide weather. It's not allowed to provide route information from a routing software. There certainly is some grey area between these.

I thought it was ok for the racers to receive weather broadcasts from publicly-available sources, but not to get individualized weather forecasts.  That translated passage sure sounds like it was an individual service just for VDH.

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On 1/19/2019 at 2:42 AM, carcrash said:

And Regarding an aluminium yacht that has beaten around the Southern Ocean: No. Hell no.

Aluminum fatigues to zero strength. Do a short experiment with an aluminum can. Even small amount of flex, hundreds of thousands of times, does it in. One lap around the planet upwind over 120 days is 12 x 60 x 24 x 120 = over 2 million. The boat would need to be very over built, with a design impulse load of under 10ksi, to be reliable, and any welds would be quite dangerous. Consider that absolutely no part will be an inch thick! Quarter inch thick, 2500 lbs stress... Steady loads might be less without headstay tension, bit the impulse (shock) loads from each and every wave with upwind rigging and sheet loads will be much higher. And of course, there WILL be corrosion weak spots too.

If it was steel or fiberglass, a different story.

 

 

On 1/19/2019 at 4:16 AM, jack_sparrow said:

Complete bollocks.

PS. In reply I had to dice out the body of your post starting with the monocoque construction of a beer can because simply copying it would have caused me to throw up in my mouth again.

 

On 1/19/2019 at 8:02 AM, carcrash said:

Thankfully, nobody needs to depend upon your thinking besides for the humor, which many of us enjoy. Keep it up, Jack!

CrashYourOwnCar I'm feeling privileged being the only post you have replied to here. Come on I'm good for a good joust. Cat got your tongue mate or what?

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5 hours ago, QBF said:

There is also the 56-foot aluminium cutter Seal that has been sailing Arctic and Antarctica waters since 2004.

http://www.expeditionsail.com/contacts/sailboat-seal.htm

 

Seal is in Alaska these days and has been for quite some time. There are lots of aluminium boats on that circuit; Spirit of Sydney, Boulard, Christope Augain's French version of a Cigale 16 (meta yard?), Isabel Autisier's ADA, Fernande, Isatis, Sauvage, ......etc. etc..

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6 hours ago, Texcom said:

I was told VDH got Slats position on Friday. No confirmation.

Recording of the begin of VDH weather sked (HAM radio) today 08.45 GMT https://instaud.io/3chn VDH is too weak to be heard but he gets (1.00 - 2.25 min) DTF's from the tracker and i guess distances to finish line and between boats and some other info(which is?). As a math teacher, he can easily do the math. 
VDH is still transmitting even he doesn't have HAM license.

Tracker:
Slats:speed: 2.1 knots @ 338.62° Position at: 20 Jan 2019 08:00 UTC Lat/Lon: 34° 47.03 N, 027° 20.44 W DTF: 1350.0 NM Distance (last 24hrs): 66 NM
VDH :Speed: 7.2 knots @   48.54° Position at: 20 Jan 2019 10:00 UTC Lat/Lon: 40° 34.90 N, 027° 52.39 W DTF: 1182.6 NM

 

 

6 hours ago, Texcom said:

 

Quote

NOR 3.1.3.3:  GPS Positions from GGR Tracker and AIS Marine Traffic.
GPS co-ordinates of GGR entrants from the GGR Live tracker or AIS Marine Traffic are forbidden to entrants.
1st offence: 48hrs time penalty
2nd offence: Disqualification

 

Well the NOR is quite specific on the sources of information "GGR Tracker" and "AIS Marine Traffic" - I don't use those sources so perhaps whoever was providing the info is not either. 

What is a GPS coordinate? Does that mean geographic position derived from the GPS satellite network. Or a geographic position interpolated by DR from historical data represented in latitude and longitude? 

Anybody with very basic knowledge can drive a bus through the holes in the NOR... however as the jury and race director is the same person.........

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50 minutes ago, littlechay said:

Seal is in Alaska these days and has been for quite some time. There are lots of aluminium boats on that circuit; Spirit of Sydney, Boulard, Christope Augain's French version of a Cigale 16 (meta yard?), Isabel Autisier's ADA, Fernande, Isatis, Sauvage, ......etc. etc..

Don't forget just the itsy bitsy 747, over I think 1,500 built and a model still going 50 years on. I still can't believe that alloy shit of CrashMyOwnCar's. 

images (19).jpeg

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4 hours ago, Hukilau said:

I thought it was ok for the racers to receive weather broadcasts from publicly-available sources, but not to get individualized weather forecasts.  That translated passage sure sounds like it was an individual service just for VDH.

What would that mean? Say Windy is certainly "publicly available". Is an entrant allowed to ask what does Windy predict now and during next 24h for the coordinates he gives? Why not? The shore team also sees from the tracker where the boat is. So no need to give the coordinates. Then they can also see SOG/COG and predict where the boat will be during the next 24h and describe how the weather will change. I can't see anything that is not publicly available nor routing in this. Routing would mean that the shore team gives recommendations where to sail in order to get the best VMG or avoid future headwinds/calms.

But it would not be difficult to give routing information disguised as weather information.

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1 hour ago, Joakim said:

But it would not be difficult to give routing information disguised as weather information.

Bingo.

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I listened to MOST of the audio file in the link of post 4045. I did not listen to the whole thing (37 minutes, with quite a lot or gibberish in between; including discussion on how much punch cocktail is needed for the 18th birthday party of one of the operator's daughter...).

What I heard the radio operator tell VDH is basically reading a weather report that the radio operator must have gotten from an official source. At some point, the operator says: "you should have winds from 45° (North East) and they should turn North; so that should be good for you…" to which VDH reply "well, no! it is not good if it turns North!"

The beginning of the audio file (where there is the exchange above) is apparently the forecast for December 13th., the radio operator did not grasp completely the sailing consequences of the change of wind direction.

At around 21 minutes, one of the operators is giving the DTF (distance to finish); it was 5664 NM for Mark… So not positions, but dtf, for sure.

At around 25 minutes, one of the multiple operators tells VDH: "you are the only master of your strategy… I cannot help you in any fashion on that point!"

Starting at 31 minutes; one of the operators reads an official weather forecast, with general weather and evolution, position of high  and low pressure systems (latitude and longitude) with forecasted position evolution, current conditions (wind and sea) and forecast for the next 12, 24, and 48 hrs...

What it looks like to me: people on short ware radio get weather forecast from some official provider, and read it out loud on the radio to VDH; plus DTF of other competitors. It seems that most of those operators do not have much sailing experience.

What I heard definitely did not sound like a routing that you would get from a qualified weather router.

I do not know if this is allowed or not, but this is what I understood from the conversation. And knowing how the rules have been written and interpreted/"explained" by the organizer, I don't know if anybody can be sure they understand the rules on this point… and if this is allowed or not...

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Interesting report as always Laurent, thank you.  Also surprising that Slats motored across the high.

VDH is really sending it, staying over 7 knots consistently with the wind on the weak side of his rig.  He must be feeling confident about it now.  At almost 200 miles ahead with around 1000 miles to go, VHD is confirming that so long as his rig stands, he will finish first.  I would think he would slow down if he knew the DTF delta. The forecast heavily favors VDH now too.  Consequently, as Chick Hearn would once say, this race in the refrigerator: the door is closed, the lights are out, the butter's getting hard, and the eggs are cooling.

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With the old guy now to the east of Slats this is all over. That is my take.

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16 hours ago, QBF said:

There is also the 56-foot aluminium cutter Seal that has been sailing Arctic and Antarctica waters since 2004.

http://www.expeditionsail.com/contacts/sailboat-seal.htm

yacht-seal-ice.jpg

Well, of course it has lasted.   All that floating ice keeps those nasty waves from bending it and beer canning it to little Budweiser sized pieces.

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5 hours ago, DtM said:

With the old guy now to the east of Slats this is all over. That is my take.

Yep. Once the trough currently running NE/SW disperses tomorrow they will have a good NW airflow for the balance of this week. That is going to get quite strong at times so Heede needs to keep that stick pointing to the sky.

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According to Windy (GFS) there's a calm area chasing VDH. If he can do about 150 M/24h, he should stay ahead of it. Maybe he will finish already on 28th? 1030 M to go and it looks like he can sail ~6 knots rest of the "race".

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I've given up on the rules for this race, so I will post a question for the mentally deranged. Is there any weight in the argument that any messages on hf/ham are public and therfore ok?

Does not hearing the message automatically qualify it as not public?

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1 hour ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Is there any weight in the argument that any messages on hf/ham are public and therfore ok?

Does not hearing the message automatically qualify it as not public?

It's public, within western world: "it is unlawful to disclose the content of radio transmissions overheard unless they are amateur radio traffic, broadcasts to the public or distress calls." https://www.eham.net/articles/7711

Some countries have limitations on listening to other types(utility, cell phones, etc) of communications.

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https://www.facebook.com/1751709878415736/posts/220785431280128  ("Jean Luc Van Den Heede CHEATING?? " video)
RO:
- about weather routing
- only giving coordinates is forbidden, DTF etc ok!

- "French hams stopped providing weather for Slats and VDH"
Untrue. And why they would stop now if (check next) VDH renewed his license. Lies!

- "VDH might have renewed his license"
 I really doubt that, he still uses "Jean-Luc" as callsign. A ham have to use a valid callsign. If he ever had a St. Lucia license, such license isn't generally valid on a french ship. Valid license must be at hand when using transmitter.


VDH  presented unvalid/fake callsign to the RO/ggr and should be banned transmitting on Ham frequencies also by ggr.

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18 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Don't forget just the itsy bitsy 747, over I think 1,500 built and a model still going 50 years on. I still can't believe that alloy shit of CrashMyOwnCar's. 

images (19).jpeg

Well, there was this one airplane, aluminum skin as I remember that would crack like an egg at some point in flight, sadly allowing the yoke of people to pour out in less than survivable circumstances (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Comet).

I do agree with both you and LC overall that a well constructed aluminium boat, like today's planes should last decades.  Hell, my brother was flying planes old then that 747 depicted and the last thing they worried about was whether the skin would rip off....ah, well there is this one (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Airlines_Flight_243) where the skin did just rip off.

I think carcrash is hyperbolic in his view of aluminum boats, but I won't just dismiss the foundational point that there is such a thing as metal fatigue and whether it is a poor design, or pre-mature aging from over maxed cycle count, metal can and does break eventually.  Fiber laminates, wood rots, metal bends and breaks and choosing one over the other is not the issue, it is in how and how often one conducts inspections and maintains the structure. 

There was a story about a pilot that decided to go flying his airplane after it sat in his garage for 10+ years.  It was a twin Beech and the guy had not flown in about as long.  While in a maneuver that put extra G stress on the wings, one wing departed the airplane, both wing and plane fell to the ground.  Here's the funny part (not really).  NTSB concludes it was the corrosion and weakness of the wing root due to lack of inspection and maintenance that contributed to the crash.  The pilot's wife of course then sued Beechcraft, because clearly they needed to have made magic aluminum that never corroded, never fatigued and would forever remain strong.

If that is LC's boat in one picture....damn, that is one nice looking boat.

 

Quote

While the airframe had accumulated 35,496 flight hours prior to the accident, those hours included over 89,680 flight cycles (takeoffs and landings), owing to its use on short flights.[5] This amounted to more than twice the number of flight cycles it was designed for.[3]

 

 

Quote

However, within a year of entering airline service, problems started to emerge, with three Comets lost within twelve months in highly publicised accidents, after suffering catastrophic in-flight break-ups. Two of these were found to be caused by structural failure resulting from metal fatigue in the airframe, a phenomenon not fully understood at the time.

 

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3 hours ago, bucc5062 said:

If that is LC's boat in one picture....damn, that is one nice looking boat.

 

Not mine but I drive it sometimes. http://www.pelagic.co.uk

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3 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

Cool adventures.  I'd love the Cape Horn trip, but not on my current income.

There are quite a few options quite a few of them cheaper. The Cape Horn trip is pretty cool you get to see some pretty amazing sectors of the Beagle Channel, then the Horn is just a headland ;)  Here is one of my attempts at an Ansel Adam's styled photos in Seno Pia.

1287057186_2008-03-18at11-35-45.thumb.jpg.fae8b2d5ea3d71c2e0edbe04c2434535.jpg

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4 hours ago, bucc5062 said:

 

Quote

However, within a year of entering airline service, problems started to emerge, with three Comets lost within twelve months in highly publicised accidents, after suffering catastrophic in-flight break-ups. Two of these were found to be caused by structural failure resulting from metal fatigue in the airframe, a phenomenon not fully understood at the time.

 

That is only a part of the story of course. The issue was not with the metal as such but the design. IIRC the issues was mainly with the windows they had windows that were very close to square; the corners cracked at the stress point. Changing the windows to circular solved the problem and the Comet continued in service until now as the Nimrod with the RAF but public confidence was lost in the design and the design was withdrawn from civilian use after the crashes. So in fact the aircraft had a service life of circa 60 years. 

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1 hour ago, littlechay said:

 

That is only a part of the story of course. The issue was not with the metal as such but the design. IIRC the issues was mainly with the windows they had windows that were very close to square; the corners cracked at the stress point. Changing the windows to circular solved the problem and the Comet continued in service until now as the Nimrod with the RAF but public confidence was lost in the design and the design was withdrawn from civilian use after the crashes. So in fact the aircraft had a service life of circa 60 years. 

Stresses do not like going around corners.  Which is one thing (among many) that bothers me about all those chunky charter boat designs with large square windows in their hulls.  Just structurally wrong.

A similar but different thing happened with the Lockheed Electra which had several failures that were ultimately discovered to stem from sympathetic vibration within the airframe at certain engine RPMs.  Not the material, but the design.  I recall seeing some late night movie about it as a kid - with scientists doing airborne research as heroes.  Think of that. 

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2 hours ago, littlechay said:

 

That is only a part of the story of course. The issue was not with the metal as such but the design. IIRC the issues was mainly with the windows they had windows that were very close to square; the corners cracked at the stress point. Changing the windows to circular solved the problem and the Comet continued in service until now as the Nimrod with the RAF but public confidence was lost in the design and the design was withdrawn from civilian use after the crashes. So in fact the aircraft had a service life of circa 60 years. 

To be fair to me I did say this:
 

Quote

I won't just dismiss the foundational point that there is such a thing as metal fatigue and whether it is a poor design, or pre-mature aging from over maxed cycle count, metal can and does break eventually. 

There are countless failures in design that eventually lead to improvements over time...unlike this race where one cannot really improve the design of a poo pile.  As an aviation buff I was aware of the design flaw in the comet and as much fascinated how they went about discovering the problem. 

As to that image, I'd say Ansel may have approved :)

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Although it is a long term prediction, it looks possible JLH could get a bit of weather as he enters the final few miles to the finish.  if he can do better than 100 miles a day then he may get in before it flows over the finish area.  It also looks like he has a lane right to the finish on port tack....ouch.  Kinda like the sailing gods said "Will give you a fair wind, but we're going to punish your weak side till you finish or it breaks.  You feel lucky ol' man?"  At this point I'd try to come up with a spiderweb to hold that mast up till the finish, but I doubt he'll let up on the throttle till even if it snapped, he'd either jury rig or just motor to the line.

Also, at this point, if Mad King Donald tries to throw a shade on this finish and begin to toss out penalties willy nilly on radio infractions it will be time to call this debacle dead.  I would hope it kills any hope of a '22 race under these proclamations of injustice.

 

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59 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

..............or just motor to the line.

No go Bucc,  No motoring within 250Nm of the barn.

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Bottom line is that there is no way that either VDH or Slats would be disqualified.  It would look just soooo bad.

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Just now, Hukilau said:

Bottom line is that there is no way that either VDH or Slats would be disqualified.  It would look just soooo bad.

Indeed. It's almost like there's a very good reason why there is independence between Race Committee and Protest Committee, with a large amount of effort expended to ensure that.

In this event, however...

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6 hours ago, littlechay said:

There are quite a few options quite a few of them cheaper. The Cape Horn trip is pretty cool you get to see some pretty amazing sectors of the Beagle Channel, then the Horn is just a headland ;)  Here is one of my attempts at an Ansel Adam's styled photos in Seno Pia.

1287057186_2008-03-18at11-35-45.thumb.jpg.fae8b2d5ea3d71c2e0edbe04c2434535.jpg

The mountaineering opportunities are immense there...easy access...but the periods of good weather, without lows, are fairly infrequent down there...patience called for in everything :-)

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3 hours ago, Laser1 said:

No go Bucc,  No motoring within 250Nm of the barn.

That's just a rule.  Doesn't really have any effect on the behaviour of the sailors.

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2 hours ago, Hukilau said:

Bottom line is that there is no way that either VDH or Slats would be disqualified.  It would look just soooo bad.

He can give both of them a 72h penalty. Sorted...

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3 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

The mountaineering opportunities are immense there...easy access...but the periods of good weather, without lows, are fairly infrequent down there...patience called for in everything :-)

Yea. I've done some of the easier ones. Mt Francais and such and one winter did a circuit of Isla Gordon ski mountaineering. We waited for a good snowfall then left Puerto Williams. It was great, dinghy ashore, step out onto the skies and skin up, ski down, step into tender, and repeat somewhere else. 

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4 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

The mountaineering opportunities are immense there...easy access...but the periods of good weather, without lows, are fairly infrequent down there...patience called for in everything :-)

 

10 hours ago, littlechay said:

There are quite a few options quite a few of them cheaper. The Cape Horn trip is pretty cool you get to see some pretty amazing sectors of the Beagle Channel, then the Horn is just a headland ;)  Here is one of my attempts at an Ansel Adam's styled photos in Seno Pia.

1287057186_2008-03-18at11-35-45.thumb.jpg.fae8b2d5ea3d71c2e0edbe04c2434535.jpg

This image is stunning, is there any way a physical copy can be bought?

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