SteveC

Snowflakes and sailing

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Anyone any thoughts on whether R69 is being increasingly enforced for (in my opinion) ridiculously PC reasons.

I heard of a 69 hearing at a recent event where a person was found guilty of a 'heat of the  moment' shout (no other rule breach) that was deemed a minimal (no further action) breach yet took over 4 hours to resolve by the jury.

Fair enough if it was *actual* gross misconduct, however this was more akin to a start line in a cruising class shouting "up up up" and when the boat in the wrong was ignoring the suggestion, then shouting "will you fvkking go up!!"

Have sailors become so fickle that they are 'deeply offended' by this (as was recorded on the protest form).

Is seems, having chatted to a few pros about this, that there is a mandate from the ISAF to clamp down on such behavior, lest some poor snowflake get offended by it. 

Is this what we have become?

What will happen to these poor easily offended people on a north Atlantic offshore with a 30ft following sea in 30kts with a kite up and the shyt hits the fan?

I really fear for them and I don't think the answer is for sailing federations to simply make more cotton wool available.

 

Any views on this?

 

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Did he go up? 

Used to be Yachting was a gentleman's sport.. 

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4 minutes ago, SteveC said:

Anyone any thoughts on whether R69 is being increasingly enforced for (in my opinion) ridiculously PC reasons.

I heard of a 69 hearing at a recent event where a person was found guilty of a 'heat of the  moment' shout (no other rule breach) that was deemed a minimal (no further action) breach yet took over 4 hours to resolve by the jury.

Fair enough if it was *actual* gross misconduct, however this was more akin to a start line in a cruising class shouting "up up up" and when the boat in the wrong was ignoring the suggestion, then shouting "will you fvkking go up!!"

Have sailors become so fickle that they are 'deeply offended' by this (as was recorded on the protest form).

Is seems, having chatted to a few pros about this, that there is a mandate from the ISAF to clamp down on such behavior, lest some poor snowflake get offended by it. 

Is this what we have become?

What will happen to these poor easily offended people on a north Atlantic offshore with a 30ft following sea in 30kts with a kite up and the shyt hits the fan?

I really fear for them and I don't think the answer is for sailing federations to simply make more cotton wool available.

 

Any views on this?

 

I don't see what the problem is here. 

Every competitor has the right to protest.  Looks like the jury got it right and the protestor will think twice about calling that again.  You are projecting one incident to call the sport in general, seems a small sample to base your conclusions on. 

The system appears to be working. 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, random said:

I don't see what the problem is here. 

Every competitor has the right to protest.  Looks like the jury got it right and the protestor will think twice about calling that again.  You are projecting one incident to call the sport in general, seems a small sample to base your conclusions on. 

The system appears to be working. 

 

 

I'm posting here describing what I saw, and the aftermath, not making any conclusions.

I would simply like to hear others experience on the matter and, if there are increasingly similar rulings, what that means for the sport in general.

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There should be more Rule 69 protests, it would improve the sport.

Years ago I was luffing on the line in a 26 footer with less than 30 seconds to the gun.  Another boat screams in from the top side of the line screaming words like 'Rooomm room get out of the fucking way you got not fucking rights fuck you!"  So to narrowly avoid a collision I had to bear away as did a couple of other boats just before the gun went.  The offending boat got a great start to windward of us while we were gassed by the fleet.

Now the worst part was that the offenders knew the rules but decided that no one was going to protest in that semi-social event and took full advantage of that.  Worked before and it worked again.  I still regret not protesting.  I was too lazy.  In fact I was at fault for not protesting a competitor who broke the rules.

Should be more protesting to clean up the sport.

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I think the barger should have come fucking up.

 

Or how about the leeward boat protest the boat that wouldn't come fucking up for a rule 69 infraction for causing leeward traumatic worrying that he would scratch his gelcoat.

 

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37 minutes ago, SteveC said:

Anyone any thoughts on whether R69 is being increasingly enforced for (in my opinion) ridiculously PC reasons.

I heard of a 69 hearing at a recent event where a person was found guilty of a 'heat of the  moment' shout (no other rule breach) that was deemed a minimal (no further action) breach yet took over 4 hours to resolve by the jury.

Fair enough if it was *actual* gross misconduct, however this was more akin to a start line in a cruising class shouting "up up up" and when the boat in the wrong was ignoring the suggestion, then shouting "will you fvkking go up!!"

Have sailors become so fickle that they are 'deeply offended' by this (as was recorded on the protest form).

Is seems, having chatted to a few pros about this, that there is a mandate from the ISAF to clamp down on such behavior, lest some poor snowflake get offended by it. 

Is this what we have become?

What will happen to these poor easily offended people on a north Atlantic offshore with a 30ft following sea in 30kts with a kite up and the shyt hits the fan?

I really fear for them and I don't think the answer is for sailing federations to simply make more cotton wool available.

 

Any views on this?

 

“Gross” is no longer a requirement for rule 69.

The standard is now only “misconduct”.

Good luck finding a universal understanding of exactly what defines “misconduct”.

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It should be noted that "Gross Misconduct" was reduced to "Misconduct" in the last iteration of the rule book. It seems World Sailing is encouraging more rule 69 hearings. 

It is also notable that as a member of a protest committee and receiving a rule 69 report, you might look to the US Sailing Judges Manual, but it has been withdrawn for revision and "will be replaced soon." It is hard to know what "soon" is given that it has been pulled for revision since the beginning of 2017. 

World Sailing's Judges Manual is here: http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/JudgeManual1710182-[23619].pdf 

 

From that documnent:

Examples of occasions when action under rule 69 would be appropriate, should the protest committee become aware of evidence, are presented in Case 138. Some include:

• lying at a hearing

• knowingly infringing a rule with intent to gain an unfair advantage

• threatening behavior, or physical contact

• falsifying measurement documents

• failure to comply with a reasonable request of a race official

• deliberately damaging another boat

• abuse of officials

• theft

• offensive drunken behavior

• fighting

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7 minutes ago, random said:

There should be more Rule 69 protests, it would improve the sport.

Years ago I was luffing on the line in a 26 footer with less than 30 seconds to the gun.  Another boat screams in from the top side of the line screaming words like 'Rooomm room get out of the fucking way you got not fucking rights fuck you!"  So to narrowly avoid a collision I had to bear away as did a couple of other boats just before the gun went.  The offending boat got a great start to windward of us while we were gassed by the fleet.

Now the worst part was that the offenders knew the rules but decided that no one was going to protest in that semi-social event and took full advantage of that.  Worked before and it worked again.  I still regret not protesting.  I was too lazy.  In fact I was at fault for not protesting a competitor who broke the rules.

Should be more protesting to clean up the sport.

In fairness that is not the same. They were clearly in the wrong there in terms of the start line rules regardless of R69.

How would you feel if you or one of your fellow competitors had responded with "WTF are you doing, you have no rights????!!!! and then lost a hearing over it? 

Bear in mind a R69 hearing is not a "protest" under the rules, and the protestor has zero to lose by doing it.

In your case, I would agree that they (barging boat) should be reported, clear bullying tactics, I'm not so sure about an innocent boat responding.

 

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Rule 69 has two good uses, if you ask me:

1) For absolutely egregiously offensive shitbags who need removing from the fleet. 

2) As a get-out-of-jail-free card in the event someone protests me and does so with colourful language. 

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11 minutes ago, sunseeker said:

“Gross” is no longer a requirement for rule 69.

The standard is now only “misconduct”.

Good luck finding a universal understanding of exactly what defines “misconduct”.

Yes, sorry, my bad there.

Exact current wording is:

Quote

(a) A competitor, boat owner or support person shall not commit an act of misconduct.
(b) Misconduct is:
(1) conduct that is a breach of good manners, a breach of good sportsmanship, or unethical behaviour; or
(2) conduct that may bring the sport into disrepute.

 

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How about not bringing trigger words like "snowflake" into the question, that blurs clear thinking and makes it political when its about sportsmanship. Its all horses for courses, in our club races swearing at each other is technical language among familiar boats, you don't call the commodore a cunt unless you want a 69 hearing. You have to read the situation and to be fair its probably better for the sport all round to not swear at competitors. When was the last time you heard pro golfers, F-1 drivers, tennis players, top sports people in any field use foul language unless they lose self control?   

That said, the appropriate course of action is to protest him for failing to keep clear and have a quiet word in the bar, not convene a full flags and trumpets hearing                                                                                                                                 

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5 minutes ago, SENDITBOYS said:

2) As a get-out-of-jail-free card in the event someone protests me and does so with colourful language. 

You cannot actually use it in those terms, it will have no bearing on an unrelated protest. It may, however cause grief for the other party - maybe rightly so - but if you did it vindictively then I have an issue.

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Everyone is LOOKING to get offended these days, so they can whine their 'righteous indignation'.

The biggest crybabies are the ones who use the term 'Snowflake'... projection is a form of self delusion to hide one's hypocrisy. 

We once called "up", and the response was "If you were more Corinthian, we'd give you room"  (although we had no pro/paid sailors on board).

 

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If people are sensitive about the use of 'snowflake' I'll humbly apologize for that and admit it was for clickbait purposes..

9 minutes ago, Gutterblack said:

That said, the appropriate course of action is have a quiet word in the bar, not convene a full flags and trumpets hearing                                                                                                                                 

This I agree with ^^

I'm no spring chicken either, but yeah back in the day we used to resolve matters over a beer and there was never ill feeling.

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Being offended...a must watch...

 

 

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Bottom line is that the rules are there to sort it out.  Of course protests can be either scurrilous or genuine, the system will sort that out.

From my own experience the sport has been damaged more by people not protesting (like me) to show that bad behaviour does not pay. 

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17 minutes ago, Gutterblack said:

That said, the appropriate course of action is to protest him for failing to keep clear and have a quiet word in the bar, not convene a full flags and trumpets hearing     

You see that attitude is the problem.  Those chats do no happen, everyone goes home.

The sport is defined by a very good set of rules, if you are not prepared to sail under them go find another sport that is governed by the chats in the bar.

The Bar after the race:

"Maaaate, WTF were you thinking at that top mark?  You gave  me no room and forced me into the buoy, you had no rights there."

"Bullshit, I gave you plenty of room, in fact I was clear ahead anyway".

"Mate, we had half a boat overlap".

"Bullshit, hey Frank, come over here and tell this prick will ya?"

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47 minutes ago, random said:

 I still regret not protesting.  I was too lazy.  In fact I was at fault for not protesting a competitor who broke the rules.

Should be more protesting to clean up the sport.

Like LB15 and WOXI or Comanche? Whichever boat it was..

Just saying...

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1 hour ago, SteveC said:

Anyone any thoughts on whether R69 is being increasingly enforced for (in my opinion) ridiculously PC reasons.

I heard of a 69 hearing at a recent event where a person was found guilty of a 'heat of the  moment' shout (no other rule breach) that was deemed a minimal (no further action) breach yet took over 4 hours to resolve by the jury.

Fair enough if it was *actual* gross misconduct, however this was more akin to a start line in a cruising class shouting "up up up" and when the boat in the wrong was ignoring the suggestion, then shouting "will you fvkking go up!!"

Have sailors become so fickle that they are 'deeply offended' by this (as was recorded on the protest form).

Is seems, having chatted to a few pros about this, that there is a mandate from the ISAF to clamp down on such behavior, lest some poor snowflake get offended by it. 

Is this what we have become?

What will happen to these poor easily offended people on a north Atlantic offshore with a 30ft following sea in 30kts with a kite up and the shyt hits the fan?

I really fear for them and I don't think the answer is for sailing federations to simply make more cotton wool available.

 

Any views on this?

 

"What will happen to these poor easily offended people on a north Atlantic offshore with a 30ft following sea in 30kts with a kite up and the shyt hits the fan?"

Profoundly unlikely the folks you describe would ever be in that location in those conditions

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I wrote elsewhere on the 'net 5 years ago, "A RRS69 penalty shall apply ONLY after a guilty finding in a court of law."

Somebody punches you at a regatta? Call a cop, go to court have her get a guilty finding for assault. Then a RRS69 applies.

Somebody vandalizes your boat or car at a regatta?  Call a cop, go to court and have them found guilty for vandalism.  Then RRS69 applies.

Too often, people do not want to involve police and want some judges at the club to be in charge of enforcement.  BS.  You want these people out?  Nail to the effen cross!

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

Like LB15 and WOXI or Comanche? Whichever boat it was..

Just saying...

What are you saying?

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You railed against him in the WOXI thread for letting one of them cross and not protesting. 

That’s what I am saying

Glad you owned up to it 

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5 minutes ago, random said:

The sport is defined by a very good set of rules, if you are not prepared to sail under them go find another sport that is governed by the chats in the bar.

Circling back to the topic at hand, it's also everyone on the racecources' option not to protest or report. 

We all do it, especially at club level, it's good manners sometimes. 

I don't get your view that we are all duty bound to officially protest every infringement,

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6 minutes ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

I wrote elsewhere on the 'net 5 years ago, "A RRS69 penalty shall apply ONLY after a guilty finding in a court of law."

Mate I don't think you have read the rules;

(h) When the protest committee decides that a competitor or boat owner has broken rule 69.1(a), it may take one or more of the following
actions
(1) issue a warning;
(2) change their boat’s score in one or more races, including disqualification(s) that may or may not be excluded from her series score;
(3) exclude the person from the event or venue or remove any privileges or benefits; and
(4) take any other action within its jurisdiction as provided by the rules.
 
Where the fuck does that say anything about a court of law?
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6 minutes ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

"A RRS69 penalty shall apply ONLY after a guilty finding in a court of law."

That's not in the current world RRS, with the exception of international events  where there is an international jury and an exemption was granted.

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Mr McCarthy needs to read Rule 3 as well.

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17 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

You railed against him in the WOXI thread for letting one of them cross and not protesting. 

That’s what I am saying

Glad you owned up to it 

WTF are you talking about?  There was a successful protest and I supported it.

What are you on?

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69.2 

(g) The standard of proof to be applied is the test of the comfortable satisfaction of the protest committee, bearing in mind the seriousness of the alleged misconduct. However, if the standard of proof in this rule conflicts with the laws of a country, the national authority may, with the approval of World Sailing, change it with a prescription to this rule.

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26 minutes ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

I wrote elsewhere on the 'net 5 years ago, "A RRS69 penalty shall apply ONLY after a guilty finding in a court of law."

This is the best example of the real problem.  Competitors who do not know the rules.

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22 minutes ago, random said:

This is the best example of the real problem.  Competitors who do not know the rules.

Stop being a dick Random. Your aggressive comments are no better than barging. I believe Glen was merely sharing his suggestion of how a rule 69 protest should be conducted- not his interpretation of the rules. He can correct me if I am wrong. 

Dude, the opposite of talking is listening not waiting. You wouldn’t be ridiculed so much if you just took a breath and tried to appreciate where other parties are coming from. I’m not saying agree but far too often you attack the player and not the ball. 

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Rule 69 as it now stands has just become a tool to use for persecution of people for what ever reason someone usually a official or club hierarchy does not like.

In other words a purpose for which it was not designed.

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1 hour ago, ScowLover said:

From that documnent:

Examples of occasions when action under rule 69 would be appropriate, should the protest committee become aware of evidence, are presented in Case 138. Some include:

• lying at a hearing

• knowingly infringing a rule with intent to gain an unfair advantage

• threatening behavior, or physical contact

• falsifying measurement documents

• failure to comply with a reasonable request of a race official

• deliberately damaging another boat

• abuse of officials

• theft

• offensive drunken behavior

• fighting

An accurate list for Rule 69 infractions.  Note that being a loudmouth asshole yeller on the racecourse  is not included.  If it were, 1/3 of the fleets I'm now in would have several rule 69 protests every race.  Some people have coprolalia and can't help themselves.

There seems to be some misconceptions concerning Rule 69.  It's a catchall for those skippers who have not broken a RRS but still deserve  censure.  It is not to be triggered in the situation where the offender has broken a RRS rule; that is to be handled by the protest procedure, flag 'em and if they don't do their turns devote some time in the protest room and help clean up the sport.  If *everybody*  *always* threw the flag at flagrant bargers,  fools who won't come up, many other RRS violations,  sailboat racing would benefit.

This seems to be a bottom of the sport problem.  Long ago I was in the mini-Gran Prix circuit, various keelboat Nationals, OD North Americans;  and there was almost no yelling (except required hails like "Room for an obstruction, "you tack", etc.)  and a few calls of "no overlap",  "mast abeam" (which dates me),  "Come up now, 1, 3, 4, 5 .  .  ." etc.  And of course an instant hail of "protest" and pop the flag if fouled. Those guys know the rules. Other than that,  it was a cotillion out on the water.

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22 minutes ago, dreadom said:

Stop being a dick Random. Your aggressive comments are no better than barging. I believe Glen was merely sharing his suggestion of how a rule 69 protest should be conducted- not his interpretation of the rules. He can correct me if I am wrong. 

Dude, the opposite of talking is listening not waiting. You wouldn’t be ridiculed so much if you just took a breath and tried to appreciate where other parties are coming from. I’m not saying agree but far too often you attack the player and not the ball. 

Thank you for your kind suggestions Dready, but I would like to clarify a few points that you appear to have missed while tell me I haven't been listening.  And you just attacked the player, or didn't you notice?

1. SteveC said ""Anyone any thoughts on whether R69 is being increasingly enforced for (in my opinion) ridiculously PC reasons?"   Nice start to a balanced conversation.

2. The OP has admitted to using the Snowflake term to generate clicks, and it worked!

3. We have supposedly informed people making claims like "A RRS69 penalty shall apply ONLY after a guilty finding in a court of law."  Fucking really?  Which part of that is about how "merely sharing his suggestion of how a rule 69 protest should be conducted-"  Help me out here.

4. Being ridiculed by people who clearly have no fucking idea, just makes me look well informed.

So many fuckwits, so,little time.

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46 minutes ago, lydia said:

Rule 69 as it now stands has just become a tool to use for persecution of people for what ever reason someone usually a official or club hierarchy does not like.

In other words a purpose for which it was not designed.

Committees are there to sort that out.  Everyone has the right to protest, it's not only Rule 69 that can be used dishonestly.

The rule also lends itself to control loud mouth swearing clowns who think they are above the rules, then claim that they are pbing picked on for winning, or "mummy mummy they ar picking on me for no reason mummy!".

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there is a reason the line is "swear like a sailor"

the world is a tough place the sooner people acquire coping skills, the better off they will be

if you don't like what someone is saying, just don't listen

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13 minutes ago, rmdanko said:

there is a reason the line is "swear like a sailor"

the world is a tough place the sooner people acquire coping skills, the better off they will be

if you don't like what someone is saying, just don't listen

And there are reasons that Rule 69 is there to protect the sports image to the public.

2) conduct that may bring the sport into disrepute.
 
Racing often occurs within hearing of visitors to the area, guest crews, wives and off-spring.  They don't need to be unnecessarily exposed to loud mouth fuckwits spewing abuse in a possible attempt at competitive gain.
Let the protest committee decide.  That's their job.  Competitors should be supported for asking for the rules to be observed, otherwise what rule is next?  "But I only just brushed the Mark?"  "We didn't hit hard?"  "But I thought you were going to tack anyway?"

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All depends on the event, the situation, etc...

my general thoughts are we’re all grownups (in the legal sense anyways) and if you get your panties in a wad over another boat yelling a few profanities at you cause you aren’t paying attention or are making a situation worse because you’re too damn hardheaded to pick your battles. Get the hell off the water and list your boat for sale. Racing ain’t for you.

No one wants to be constantly cursed at (ask any weeknight crew member and the crew less boats they left) but get some perspective.

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3 hours ago, random said:

There should be more Rule 69 protests, it would improve the sport.

Years ago I was luffing on the line in a 26 footer with less than 30 seconds to the gun.  Another boat screams in from the top side of the line screaming words like 'Rooomm room get out of the fucking way you got not fucking rights fuck you!"  So to narrowly avoid a collision I had to bear away as did a couple of other boats just before the gun went.  The offending boat got a great start to windward of us while we were gassed by the fleet.

Now the worst part was that the offenders knew the rules but decided that no one was going to protest in that semi-social event and took full advantage of that.  Worked before and it worked again.  I still regret not protesting.  I was too lazy.  In fact I was at fault for not protesting a competitor who broke the rules.

Should be more protesting to clean up the sport.

Clearly the other guy was not a SA regular who knows you, otherwise his language would have been even more colourful.

Go back to RC racing if you want to be a PC pussy

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Dreadom nailed it, when I wrote " "A RRS69 penalty shall apply ONLY after a guilty finding in a court of law."  I meant that the current RRS69 is so far stringent, so utterly politically correct, so designed for the professional rockstars and Olympians, that it is completely unneeded and unwarranted for the weekend warrior.  Let's simplify it and change it to "A RRS69 penalty shall apply ONLY after a guilty finding in a court of law."

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4 hours ago, SteveC said:

What will happen to these poor easily offended people on a north Atlantic offshore with a 30ft following sea in 30kts with a kite up and the shyt hits the fan

I have never lodged a complaint pursuant to Rule 69, but I am not clear on how being intolerant to jerks speaks to a person's seamanship.

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What a fucking joke the scot wold give this any press at all. Other than he still feels jilted by the mainstream sailing media.

laughing-and-pointing-smiley-face_12196.

 

 

OOPS, My bad

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As usual the rule/lawmakers are catering to the lowest common denominator. The morons then use the situation to run roughshod over those who know and understand the rules and wanna play to the fairness and intent. Write good rules(not ones open to a lawyers interpretation), know them and enforce them

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5 hours ago, Gutterblack said:

 When was the last time you heard pro golfers, F-1 drivers, tennis players, top sports people in any field use foul language unless they lose self control?   

                                                                                                                                

 it's called tape delay ya big dummy . what rock do you live under ? gold, baseball , football , it all still gets heard on tv at some point, and often.

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Which one of these is gross misconduct?

 

Beth-Lily-Massive-Boobs-Photos-In-Bikini

 

 

219353d1166221541-paging-d-hairy-et-part

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5 minutes ago, VWAP said:

Which one of these is gross misconduct?

You bastard. These are going to be some f’ed up dreams tonight...

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6 hours ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

Let's simplify it and change it to "A RRS69 penalty shall apply ONLY after a guilty finding in a court of law."

Right, simplifying is sending it to courts in you world?

Read RRS Rule 3.  The entire system is designed to keep lawyers out of it, something totally lost on you.

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Keep in mind that certain kinds of conduct are tolerated in different places. A famous law case, studied by every first year law student, talks about "the license of the playground," meaning that different rules apply on the playground than in a classroom or in a courtroom. The same usually applies at the yacht club, where rowdier conduct is allowed on the docks than in the dining room, or when children are present. On the other hand, lots of people in southern California will recall a donnybrook involving 10-20 sailors at the trophy presentation at Long Beach Race Week a number of years ago, after crews of several boats got into it, starting with offensive language, and ending with a fight and several competitors arrested by the LB Police Dept. 

Different sailing classes also have different 'cultures,' and conduct that is tolerated in one class, might be punished in another. 

However, no matter how you slice it, an "Organizing Authority" that puts on an event should probably not be allowed to exclude an otherwise-eligible competitor from competing in its events without a formal hearing. On the other hand, how does Ed think clubs should try to control misconduct by intoxicated sailors? St. Francis has employees who give out cards asking sailors to remove their hats in the clubhouse, but I'd bet they'd kick you out if you grope the commodore's wife or his teenage daughter, and the boat you are on might get kicked out if it happens during a regatta.

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2 hours ago, equivocator said:

Keep in mind that certain kinds of conduct are tolerated in different places.

That's what Committees are there to decide.

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5 hours ago, random said:

Right, simplifying is sending it to courts in you world?

Read RRS Rule 3.  The entire system is designed to keep lawyers out of it, something totally lost on you.

What's lost on you is, that our society already has a set of behavior standards. Assault is assault, vandalism is vandalism.  That stuff belongs exactly in the hands of the lawmen (and lawwomen).  The slap on the back of the hand that some sailing judges give, is no where near the punishment deserved by the arm of the law.

And I completely agree that the RRS right of way does belong outside of the court system.  But this new RRS69 is a great example how far off the charts this rule needs to be.  It needs to be reined in.

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15 hours ago, jerseyguy said:

"What will happen to these poor easily offended people on a north Atlantic offshore with a 30ft following sea in 30kts with a kite up and the shyt hits the fan?"

Profoundly unlikely the folks you describe would ever be in that location in those conditions

More importantly, WTF does the former have to do with rule 69?

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16 hours ago, Gutterblack said:

When was the last time you heard pro golfers, F-1 drivers, tennis players, top sports people in any field use foul language unless they lose self control?   

                                                                                                                           

paid, professional sportspeople are related in precisely what way to volunteer weekend warrior hobbyists?

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45 minutes ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

What's lost on you is, that our society already has a set of behavior standards. Assault is assault, vandalism is vandalism.  That stuff belongs exactly in the hands of the lawmen (and lawwomen).  The slap on the back of the hand that some sailing judges give, is no where near the punishment deserved by the arm of the law.

And I completely agree that the RRS right of way does belong outside of the court system.  But this new RRS69 is a great example how far off the charts this rule needs to be.  It needs to be reined in.

Yes, but I think we can hold ourselves to  higher set of standards in sport. 

Would you want your partner,  child,  mother or grandparents being sworn at whilst racing? Maybe they should just get over it and stop being 'snowflakes', but really what is to gain by making the sport a hostile and unwelcoming environment?  I think I'd trust a protest committee to tell the difference of context too. 

Then you have the instances of deliberate an pre-meditated cheating (falsifying measurement certs, lying at hearings). Again, not a criminal offence, but I think there should be rule to deal with this. 

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19 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

paid, professional sportspeople are related in precisely what way to volunteer weekend warrior hobbyists?

There are plenty of examples of sports, especially amateur sprout where foul language is not tolerated at all.

If the Henley stewards hear you drop an F-bomb you will not be in the next race, and I've never considered rowers to be snowflakes. And a significant proportion of the crews at Henley are weekend warriors.

Whether the sport allows foul language or not is a choice, and I believe having a PC decide where and when it is inappropriate is not the worst option out there. Personally I'm ok with most cursing on the course, but I have seen drunk adults on the course swearing and intimidating boats with junior crew, where it was clearly not appropriate. There should be some recourse for this.

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16 hours ago, Gutterblack said:

 When was the last time you heard pro golfers, F-1 drivers, tennis players, top sports people in any field use foul language unless they lose self control?                                                                                                                             

I'm not condoning swearing at competitors while racing, but this is clearly a bad example.  Listen to the car to pit radios during a NASCAR race sometime.  Some drivers swear all the time.  Some even at their competitors.

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To me there’s a huge difference between, ‘ come up you fuckwit’ and ‘wtf come up’.  Also perhaps for a committee to decide in context, but the one is just colorful language, the other a directed insult.

 

 

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Screw’em all. If your paying enough attention to other competitors that their colorful language makes you clutch your pearls and stand aghast, then maybe you should keep your head inside your own boat. Maybe if you did that you wouldn’t be DFL and looking for a reason to protest...

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13 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

There are plenty of examples of sports, especially amateur sprout where foul language is not tolerated at all.

1) That's not what I responded to.  

2) Maybe sports where you still have to wear an ascot when you play, but none that I do.

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37 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Yes, but I think we can hold ourselves to  higher set of standards in sport. 

Would you want your partner,  child,  mother or grandparents being sworn at whilst racing? Maybe they should just get over it and stop being 'snowflakes', but really what is to gain by making the sport a hostile and unwelcoming environment?  I think I'd trust a protest committee to tell the difference of context too. 

 

This is some bullshit.  "Higher standards" is generally code for whatever the oldest person in the club thinks.  You could just as accurately say "Obsolete standards that don't apply anywhere else in life".

Hopefully I have prepared my child, mother, or grandparents properly for competition, meaning they know how to take care of themselves.  Are your child/mother/grandparents really that in need of your powerful protection?

And finally, you trust protest committees?  I'm guessing you have not seen very many of them.

You sound like a straight up colonial.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

1) That's not what I responded to.  

2) Maybe sports where you still have to wear an ascot when you play, but none that I do.

I have never worn an ascot when rowing.

 

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16 minutes ago, Je Prefere said:

To me there’s a huge difference between, ‘ come up you fuckwit’ and ‘wtf come up’.  Also perhaps for a committee to decide in context, but the one is just colorful language, the other a directed insult.

 

 

Maybe it's an insult where you live but here in 'merica it virtually means the same thing!

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basketball, baseball, co-ed softball, skiing, snowboarding, sailing, bowhunting

All in amateur competition except the hunting.  All current.

 

 

 

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This whole discussion is insane to me. Did any of you play high school or college sports? Please, enlighten us as to how your coach talked to you. Now, how old are we?

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The sport is correcting itself. No need for rule 69 protests.  There's just a few assholes and soon that will be all the fleets have.  Just my opinion.  I have no desire to race anymore because it's not fun.

--Kevin

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I hear there are some junior soccer leagues that don't keep score anymore. Too tough for the kids and parents to deal with. Keeping score seems to lead to all sorts of messiness. As ass backward a lesson in sportsmanship that I can think of.

It's banter like this that reminds me of the old expression, golf is a waste of a good walk. In sailing terms, racing 'can' become a waste of a good day on the water. 

As for how professional sports relate to weekend warriors, perhaps by way of example or as a role model(hopefully a good one). It's amazing how quietly the crews of a couple of pro match racing teams can go about their business.(not all the time though)

But pro sports are so far from the 'ascot' example above its not even close, and each has a tough code of conduct to reel in the fierce competitors. Take tennis as an example. The code of conduct, that has evolved over decades since the days of McEnroe and Nastase, to the point where today it's...first infraction...warning...2nd point penalty...3rd...game penalty...4th match penalty. Is it as strictly enforced as it could be? No. Has it cleaned up the sport. Yes. Do players routinely bend rules? Yes. Do competitors go into it knowing their opponents will do it? Yes. If they didn't, it would be an amateur mistake. Is their routine under the breath muttering in multiple languages? Yes. Colourful and profane language quietly directed towards an opponent or the umpire. Check.

Anything less than fighting tooth and nail, in my books is bad sportsmanship. Not leaving it on the field or court is worse. Gotta be able to leave it all out there and joke about it at the bar afterward. 

I guess this is where sail racing is a little different. Other sports can fine for errant behaviour, even institute a ban, but not too many can materially change the outcome of a match or game in a protest room after the fact.

 

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17 hours ago, Gutterblack said:

When was the last time you heard pro golfers, F-1 drivers, tennis players, top sports people in any field use foul language unless they lose self control?   

Have you ever done any other kind of racing GB?   Not bustin' your stones, but, any competitive endeavor where someone's invested years of effort and more $$ than could ever be prudent in the pursuit of a win/record is very emotionally invested in that pursuit, and when something f*cks it up?  Coarse language is quite normal.  

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15 minutes ago, OutofOffice said:

This whole discussion is insane to me. Did any of you play high school or college sports? Please, enlighten us as to how your coach talked to you. Now, how old are we?

Exactly, my 8th grade lacrosse coach yelled at us with enough curse words to never give a damn. If you are a thin skinned person where as a curse word bothers you, grow the fuck up. Curse words put emphasis on things these days. They are just like any other adjective to me.  It does not bother me one bit. There is no difference in calling someone an idiot, vs fucking idiot.  If you get called an asshole, chances are look in the mirror long enough and it is probably true at some point in another.  Sure some other language is more eloquent and high class. However, did you understand the lesser language any different ? NO!. The people complaining about cursing are probably the idiots that post they hate people who don't use proper grammar. If that is how you judge people, good fucking riddance. 

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44 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

This is some bullshit.  "Higher standards" is generally code for whatever the oldest person in the club thinks.  You could just as accurately say "Obsolete standards that don't apply anywhere else in life".

Hopefully I have prepared my child, mother, or grandparents properly for competition, meaning they know how to take care of themselves.  Are your child/mother/grandparents really that in need of your powerful protection?

And finally, you trust protest committees?  I'm guessing you have not seen very many of them.

You sound like a straight up colonial.

 

 

Er, no it's not. There are things we have to tolerate in day to day life but does going to your sailing club have to be another hard up life lesson in how to 'take care of oneself'? There's no reason to make a weekend hobby about enduring abusive language.  There are plenty of ways to vocalise your displeasure at a competitor without being abusive. However, maybe you'd be a better racer yourself if you didn't feel the need to swear at people and focused on your own race.

Preparing your family for a 'sailing' competition shouldn't require them to take abuse. It a hobby, something you do for fun. Stop kidding yourself you're in some sort of high stakes death match that requires the uttermost unrelenting aggressive tone.

And how exactly do your family take care of themselves? By meekly sitting there accepting abuse? By shouting back so all the sport becomes is the CLEAN family in a shouting match with the Jones? Sounds like a great way to spend the weekend. Or do you teach them to go physically attack the other sailors who shout at them?  

I notice you don't swear in your commentary? Why is that? When you see someone do something stupid you don't call them out as a fuckwit when you interview them? 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, tiz said:

The sport is correcting itself. No need for rule 69 protests.  There's just a few assholes and soon that will be all the fleets have.  Just my opinion.  I have no desire to race anymore because it's not fun.

--Kevin

Then you’re doing it wrong.

Why let some foul mouthed, high strung, ill-tempered Neanderthal ruin your perfectly good day on the water? Last I checked, the only time I really had to deal on a one on one basis with my competitors was at the start line, after that, talk all you want. I’m sailing, see you at the finish line.

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So who now decides what is foul language. As far as the media is concerned nothing seems to be off base these days.   And is that actually grounds for misconduct? 

If you get offended by being called a fucking asshole, stop being a fucking asshole.  It really is that simple.  It's just words people, get over it. 

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This entire thread is a living example of way most sailors have learned to avoid "racing" and why the "sport" is close to being dead.

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7 minutes ago, Guvacine said:

This entire thread is a living example of way most sailors have learned to avoid "racing" and why the "sport" is close to being dead.

All of sailings problems stem from people calling others do-do heads and using words we all learned when we were 6 in the highly stressful environment that is racing, got it.

asinine statement. I don’t know anyone who has stopped racing period because of a few curse words. I know plenty of boats that can’t get crew because of a ill-tempered skipper, or certain events that have declining numbers because of a few bad apples. The free-market that is sailing in general tends to sort these things out in the end. 

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I don't think it's foul language per-see. It's being abusive toward someone. 

You can shout at someone so they know they are about to break a rule, you can instruct them to take a action that will be mutually beneficial. There's nothing wrong with being assertive, but there's no need to personally attack someone.  Once you get to the point where you're just hurling insults at them to intimidate them into different behaviour, then whether you're in the wrong or right, that's just bullying. 

If that abuse isn't punished by the rules, then the sport quickly just becomes about who can bully others out the way best.  I always though sailing was good because it was about boat handling, tactical positioning, shifts, tides and sail trim.  I don't think it should be about intimidating people until they do what you want. 

Calling people snowflakes because they don't want to spend their free time being call a cunt may sound macho, but in reality I think it's indicative of where people run out of actual sailing skill and need to bring the game back down to their own level. 

 

 

 

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Protest should be as a last resort...not for conjoined technicalities imagined on the race course... 

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1 hour ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Er, no it's not. There are things we have to tolerate in day to day life but does going to your sailing club have to be another hard up life lesson in how to 'take care of oneself'? There's no reason to make a weekend hobby about enduring abusive language.  There are plenty of ways to vocalise your displeasure at a competitor without being abusive. However, maybe you'd be a better racer yourself if you didn't feel the need to swear at people and focused on your own race.

Preparing your family for a 'sailing' competition shouldn't require them to take abuse. It a hobby, something you do for fun. Stop kidding yourself you're in some sort of high stakes death match that requires the uttermost unrelenting aggressive tone.

 And how exactly do your family take care of themselves? By meekly sitting there accepting abuse? By shouting back so all the sport becomes is the CLEAN family in a shouting match with the Jones? Sounds like a great way to spend the weekend. Or do you teach them to go physically attack the other sailors who shout at them?  

I notice you don't swear in your commentary? Why is that? When you see someone do something stupid you don't call them out as a fuckwit when you interview them? 

 

 

There's a whole lot of 'enduring abuse' that you seem to think is going on here, but this discussion really isn't about 'abuse' - it's about regular language in regular life that a few old people and fearful grandparents want to prevent.

I really, really don't understand how hearing curse words is 'enduring abuse'.  

An sailor who is ABUSING others - especially kids - should be penalized, and I don't really see anyone disputing that. 

But if the word "FUCK" is categorized as 'abuse' to you, I think you need to go to your fainting couch and take a break.  

Do not try to use 1950 standards to patrol a 2020 world.

Other answers: (1) I don't swear in my commentary because I am paid not to swear in my commentary.  Pro tennis players don't swear (loudly) because they do not want to lose sponsors or have soundbites go viral on social media.  (2) My wife is like me - she takes zero shit from people.  You talk shit, she comes back at you harder.  If I wanted a girl who liked to turn the other cheek, I'd have found some dirty-minded catholic girl.

I think you are conflating all sorts of things to avoid saying what you really want to: "I don't like those dirty words and I don't want others to have the right to say them out loud while I'm yachting'

 

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33 minutes ago, Gone Drinking said:

 

If you get offended by being called a fucking asshole, stop being a fucking asshole.  

LOVE

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I disagree with everybody who says that foul or abusive language is to be expected, acceptable, a part of sailboat racing or is somehow unimportant.

I agree with everybody who says that foul or abusive language should be penalized and directly contributes to less or declining participation.

But I disagree that foul or abusive language should be dealt with through a rule 69 hearing. To me the 69 is for things like lying, cheating, violence and the like.

Foul or abusive language should be dealt with as a part of the rules, perhaps by saying that any boat which engages in same must retire. No protests, no hearings, no nothing. You do it, you retire.

In this sense, foul or abusive language is different from debates about facts or rules regarding starts, mark roundings or other situations where boats meet which need mediation and adjudication.

Foul language on the other hand is a cut and dried fact not subject to interpretation. I know that somebody is going to say that “yes it is subject to interpretation” but no, it’s not. There are no shades of gray. You all know how your language is intended.

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2 minutes ago, Parma said:

Foul or abusive language should be dealt with as a part of the rules, perhaps by saying that any boat which engages in same must retire. No protests, no hearings, no nothing. You do it, you retire.

And who would enforce this?

No protest, no hearing? And you expect that participation will increase? That’s a special kind of dense.

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2 hours ago, hobot said:

Maybe it's an insult where you live but here in 'merica it virtually means the same thing!

I'm just a bit north of you, in murica and its not the same here at all.

 

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5 minutes ago, Je Prefere said:

I'm just a bit north of you, in murica and its not the same here at all.

 

 

It's all relative to the crowd you hang with...

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7 minutes ago, OutofOffice said:

No protest, no hearing? And you expect that participation will increase? That’s a special kind of dense.

Special is right. If you can't beat another boat on the water, and you want them to retire over language then let me tell you right now, fuck off. Why should anyone be forced to retire of a few choice words. Did the language another person used cost you the race? Not one chance. 

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I may as well just quit sailing now,  if Language is to be a determining factor.

 

 

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3 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

paid, professional sportspeople are related in precisely what way to volunteer weekend warrior hobbyists?

Pro's are generally the standard to which hobbyists aspire 

Fantasy leagues in which hobbyists can control pros are big business

Pro-Am events (even in sailing) are a feature at major regattas and golf tournaments

Hobbyists purchase gear based in part on endorsements or affinity to pros 

Jersey sales are a huge business for all pro sports 

you ever watch a group of kids playing? 

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Abusive behavior should not be tolerated, much less practiced. 

The issue is what is abusive in this era of both "snowflakes" seeking to be offended /outraged and evolved standards of public discourse.

Somebody yelling on the water is less problematic than in the bar or clubhouse afterwards. Leave the emotion during the competition. 

 

 

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31 minutes ago, OutofOffice said:

And who would enforce this?

No protest, no hearing? And you expect that participation will increase? That’s a special kind of dense.

It should, like some other infractions, be self enforcing.

Most situations like this are due to loudmouth crews, not owners. Owners call on whether to RET or not.

Some people barge, foul, hit buoys or other boats and continue on. Some people don't.

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