Recommended Posts

I'm stuck...

Definitely going to buy a sailboat but am having some trouble.  Monohull or Cat?  Please forgive me.  I tend to make a 2 minute story I to a 10 minute take.  But I think when you ask for advice, more info is better.  Right  now my main boats are Catalina Capri, or American. (More on size later). I'd really like to stay at or under $2,000 but if I can find something that fits ALL of my needs, I might be willing to bump up a bit.

Originally thought I'd be buying a Hobie Catamaran, no questions asked, end of story.  Rented one in Key West (Wave), and one in Myrtle Beach (Getaway). I left MB this weekend dead set on buying a Getaway, even though the owner of the rental shop told me I should look for a 16 instead.

Fast forward to speaking to my father in law.  He previously owned a Sunfish and has expressed interest in getting back on the water.  He said to ditch the idea of a Cat, because I'd never get anyone to go sailing with me unless they were die hard sailors (getting wet, upright seating, etc) He recommended a dryer boat so we could take "casual sails" with the family.  Makes sense, so I started looking at Dinghys.

He suggested 14 ft boats, and said that of I could find a couple that we should buy 2 so that we could get the whole family out comfortably at once (normally 4 people, sometimes 7-8 including 2 kids).  We will be sailing from Holden Beach, NC mostly in the waterway, but after taking the Hobies about a half mile out, I have huge interest in offshore sailing (nothing crazy).

My concern is that a 14 could be OKAY in the waterway, but could get pushed around by the larger faster boat wake coming by, and also really struggle trying to get out of the inlet into the ocean where the waves can become decent size.  These concerns have me considering something a bit larger (16.5 ft), but then the price and the storage gets a bit tougher.

QUESTIONS:

Would a 14.2 or 14.6 ft boat be appropriate for line of sight sailing to the beach?

Would a 16.5ft really be any better?

Should I just shrug it off and go ahead and buy a catamaran?

It's not my beach house, but I have been given permission to tie a boat off to the floating dock on the canal, or store a small boat on the trailer under the house.

Looking for help and advice or maybe even a boat I haven't even thought about yet.

Russell

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your 3 choices of water there are the ditch, the ocean or something barely knee deep, right? Buy a multihull, did your Getaway rental have wing seats?

Don't count on being able to sail in and out of a dredged canal house. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The getaway did not have wings, but I'd be interested in having them if I buy one, as I like to go FAST.

The monohull was also attractive due to possibility of adding a small electric trolling motor to get in and out of the canal.

 

Another drawback of the getaway is the price.  ZERO chance I find one of those for $2,500.  Where I could find a deal on a sloop rig mono for that

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All depends on your forecasted uses.

I am a beach cat sailor to the core. However, I have to solo and can only take the kids out when it’s mild since my wife is not into the idea of on-the-wire, edge of the razor sailing. So I am considering buying a Catalina 22 or a Santana 23 as the family boat and then a daddy’s toy (no, not the lady on the corner). Something I can solo and have my thrills on. 2500 puts you in the realm of both of those. I would say, get on the water and enjoy your time with friends and family first. Then worry about thrills. Otherwise, you may not get any of it.

As for size, 14.5 is small for offshore, but as long as you’re comfortable with capsize recovery offshore...

Just saying that I wouldn’t take a boat like an  DS1 O’Day 17 offshore on any but the best days. Finding yourself 3-4 miles out and looking at a swamped cockpit in swell is not where you want to be.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can carry a paddle or a trolling motor on a cat. At thebeachcats.com there's a "great deals" forum.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Growing up on family vacations, I sailed a Laser off the beach in South Carolina. Launch / retrieval in the surf required some assistance. I've also spent quite some time sailing a Laser on both the sound side and ocean side in Wrightsville Beach, NC using Masonboro Inlet as the ocean access. The Laser (or Sunfish or Aero or similar) can definitely handle sailing on the ocean although you do need to pick your days. There's nothing better than surfing / planing down large swells in a summer sea breeze! I've broken a mast step and top mast section but with a sea breeze have been able to self-rescue, i.e. return safely to the beach without outside assistance.

The boats you are mentioning would be great fun in the ocean on just the right days. As others have stated, with those boats you and your crew would need to be very aware of how the boat "handles" when capsized and be 110% convinced you can self-rescue. I believe that the Carolina YC (Wrightsville Beach) has raced Lightnings on the ocean but those races would be with a couple rescue craft around just in case. 

I'm not a cat guy but beach cats are a great option for sailing on the ocean but, as with any other boat, you must know how to self-rescue. When I was living on the coast in NC there were always news stories where someone took a Hobie 16 out in the ocean, capsized and spent the night floating several miles offshore because they had no idea how to right the boat.

As for the sound-side, any small boat is fine as it's pretty hard to get into serious trouble.

Good luck in your search!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Just now, Alan Crawford said:

Growing up on family vacations, I sailed a Laser off the beach in South Carolina. Launch / retrieval in the surf required some assistance. I've also spent quite some time sailing a Laser on both the sound side and ocean side in Wrightsville Beach, NC using Masonboro Inlet as the ocean access. The Laser (or Sunfish or Aero or similar) can definitely handle sailing on the ocean although you do need to pick your days. There's nothing better than surfing / planing down large swells in a summer sea breeze! I've broken a mast step and top mast section but with a sea breeze have been able to self-rescue, i.e. return safely to the beach without outside assistance.

The boats you are mentioning would be great fun in the ocean on just the right days. As others have stated, with those boats you and your crew would need to be very aware of how the boat "handles" when capsized and be 110% convinced you can self-rescue. I believe that the Carolina YC (Wrightsville Beach) has raced Lightnings on the ocean but those races would be with a couple rescue craft around just in case. 

I'm not a cat guy but beach cats are a great option for sailing on the ocean but, as with any other boat, you must know how to self-rescue. When I was living on the coast in NC there were always news stories where someone took a Hobie 16 out in the ocean, capsized and spent the night floating several miles offshore because they had no idea how to right the boat.

As for the sound-side, any small boat is fine as it's pretty hard to get into serious trouble.

Good luck in your search!

Awesome!  Some local knowledge.  I really appreciate your input.  I would be especially interested in your experience at Masonboro Inlet.  Is it worth the time to sail in a narrow channel if that is your only real means of sailing?  I can see it getting frustrating quickly unless you really had just the right wind conditions.

All of the boats that I'm looking at will either come with or will have a Hobie mast float on the top, which should help exponentially with the self recovery. 

I'm 6'2 and 200lbs, and although righting a capsized boat is no small task, I feel fairly confident in my ability to get her right side up while single handed.  My real interest in the boat would be to "sail around the island" of Holden Beach.  Which would put me a few hundred yards offshore, going mostly parallel with the beach, out of one inlet (Lockwoods Folly River) and back in the other (Shallotte River).  I would like to get your input on the 14.2 or 14.6 ft boats vs. the similar 16 ft variants of the same.  In your opinion would there be a big enough difference in handling and/or safety to justify the weight and potential storage issues?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have sailed many days in a 14 foot Holder that measures exactly the same as a Capri 14.2 and has the same sail area. 

I found the design to be very stable and passing boats, even V8 powered boats and packs of jet skis were not an issue at all. The big negative for my wife and I was how little room there was once we  stowed a small cooler and 2 life jackets. They sail well with 2 adults or 1 adult and 2 small kids, but even with 2 adults, plan on a new sailor being tangled in the jib sheets and getting bruised on the swivel cleat from time to time.

The good side is a Capri 14.2  is very hard to capsize and when you do one adult can easily right it and sail away. Search for a newer one that has a roller furling on the jib if you go this route. If buying other clones like the American or Holder, only buy one with a swing up style centerboard.

I made the mistake of borrowing a friends O'day Daysailor 2. The wife loved it and found it more relaxing to sail and more stable, even though it's a bit faster. So for us around 17' is the sweet spot for boats that trailer easily behind a small truck or mid-sized car. If I find a Capri 16.5 I will buy it because of the newer design and more cockpit room. A DS is more stable though. If I lived at the ocean in NC, I would also be looking at Mariner 19's and O'day 192 CB models. They also trailer well, but they have some lead in the bottom and a cast iron swing up center board making them very stable in swell and the weighted CB can be left un-cleated  to drag across sand bars. At 1100 lbs, they need a 4 hp motor to use an area like Murrells Inlet. The 14.2 can be moved slowly with a kayak paddle.

I love the Hobie 16, but the wife is not so sure, as it takes 2 full sized adults to right one. The wife thinks I'm a bit of an ass because I like to fly the hull with her on board.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, DialedN_07 said:

 

Awesome!  Some local knowledge.  I really appreciate your input.  I would be especially interested in your experience at Masonboro Inlet.  Is it worth the time to sail in a narrow channel if that is your only real means of sailing?  I can see it getting frustrating quickly unless you really had just the right wind conditions.

All of the boats that I'm looking at will either come with or will have a Hobie mast float on the top, which should help exponentially with the self recovery. 

I'm 6'2 and 200lbs, and although righting a capsized boat is no small task, I feel fairly confident in my ability to get her right side up while single handed.  My real interest in the boat would be to "sail around the island" of Holden Beach.  Which would put me a few hundred yards offshore, going mostly parallel with the beach, out of one inlet (Lockwoods Folly River) and back in the other (Shallotte River).  I would like to get your input on the 14.2 or 14.6 ft boats vs. the similar 16 ft variants of the same.  In your opinion would there be a big enough difference in handling and/or safety to justify the weight and potential storage issues?

I've not personally sailed in the Holden Beach area so no local knowledge there. My Wrightsville Beach experience is from the late 1980's so I suspect that large boat traffic in and out of Masonboro Inlet has increased just a little! Masonboro has jetties on both sides with a shallow area just out from the jetties (again, let 1980's local knowledge). I've seen some pretty large swell and waves depending on tide and wind just out from the jetties but never breaking waves or anything crazy like that. Looking at Google earth I don't see jetties on either inlet you mention at Holden Beach. As a result, depending on wind / swell / tide sailing in and out could get quite interesting. Best to talk to a local. As for sailing in Masonboro Inlet, at times of low boat traffic it was great fun to sail just out past the jetties and then blast back in and repeat. That said, a capsize in the inlet near the jetties would not be fun and could end rather poorly....

Again, based Google Earth, the sound side behind Holden Island looks to be about the same size as the sound side behind Wrightsville Beach. Plenty of space (and water depth even at low tide) to have fun on a Laser or similar. 

As for comments on the boats you're considering, I'll defer to others here as they have better experience. I'll just restate that as long as the boat is easily righted and easy to sail dry. My only ocean dinghy sailing experience is a Laser. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, DialedN_07 said:

 

Awesome!  Some local knowledge.  I really appreciate your input.  I would be especially interested in your experience at Masonboro Inlet.  Is it worth the time to sail in a narrow channel if that is your only real means of sailing?  I can see it getting frustrating quickly unless you really had just the right wind conditions.

All of the boats that I'm looking at will either come with or will have a Hobie mast float on the top, which should help exponentially with the self recovery. 

I'm 6'2 and 200lbs, and although righting a capsized boat is no small task, I feel fairly confident in my ability to get her right side up while single handed.  My real interest in the boat would be to "sail around the island" of Holden Beach.  Which would put me a few hundred yards offshore, going mostly parallel with the beach, out of one inlet (Lockwoods Folly River) and back in the other (Shallotte River).  I would like to get your input on the 14.2 or 14.6 ft boats vs. the similar 16 ft variants of the same.  In your opinion would there be a big enough difference in handling and/or safety to justify the weight and potential storage issues?

 

I've sailed in and out of Masonboro Inlet many a time. You have to watch the sea breeze vs outgoing tide current, at it's peak the water will be quite rough and the current will flush you out to sea. OTOH there is a gap in the jetty at the north side when the tide is above low, it's possible to sneak thru there and avoid the worst of it. Masonboro Sound or Banks Channel is home to some fun sailing, you just have to watch the current, the sandbars, the jetskis & pontoons boats (or rather, the morons driving them), etc etc.

But, given a boat that sails decently, and has flotation / self-bailing, it's no biggie. I'd take any of the boats you listed. A Daysailer of modern enough vintage to have a raised cockpit sole and full flotation is a fine boat for family outings along shore (to say "offshore" implies long journeys, not day trips) or in shallow water. A Hobie 16 has some handling issues, they don't go upwind all that well and are difficult to tack & to stop. A Hobie 18? Sure.

One of the things to bear in mind, you can only buy boats that are for sale, in an area close enough to you, within your price range. The wonderful & brilliant guys at Sailing Anarchy can say "Oh yes, buy a Wattchamallit 17, it's the perfect boat for you" and it would be THE perfect boat..... you gonna hunt around the globe to find one, waiting ten years? So, a question I have is "How far are you willing to drive to get a good boat?"

This may be a little far

https://norfolk.craigslist.org/boa/d/oday-daysailer-ii-17-sloop/6568648879.html

This one may not be

https://eastnc.craigslist.org/boa/d/sailboat-sail-boat/6602530738.html

Do a little homework and see what is available that tickles your fancy

FB- Doug

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

I've sailed in and out of Masonboro Inlet many a time. You have to watch the sea breeze vs outgoing tide current, at it's peak the water will be quite rough and the current will flush you out to sea. OTOH there is a gap in the jetty at the north side when the tide is above low, it's possible to sneak thru there and avoid the worst of it. Masonboro Sound or Banks Channel is home to some fun sailing, you just have to watch the current, the sandbars, the jetskis & pontoons boats (or rather, the morons driving them), etc etc.

But, given a boat that sails decently, and has flotation / self-bailing, it's no biggie. I'd take any of the boats you listed. A Daysailer of modern enough vintage to have a raised cockpit sole and full flotation is a fine boat for family outings along shore (to say "offshore" implies long journeys, not day trips) or in shallow water. A Hobie 16 has some handling issues, they don't go upwind all that well and are difficult to tack & to stop. A Hobie 18? Sure.

One of the things to bear in mind, you can only buy boats that are for sale, in an area close enough to you, within your price range. The wonderful & brilliant guys at Sailing Anarchy can say "Oh yes, buy a Wattchamallit 17, it's the perfect boat for you" and it would be THE perfect boat..... you gonna hunt around the globe to find one, waiting ten years? So, a question I have is "How far are you willing to drive to get a good boat?"

This may be a little far

https://norfolk.craigslist.org/boa/d/oday-daysailer-ii-17-sloop/6568648879.html

This one may not be

https://eastnc.craigslist.org/boa/d/sailboat-sail-boat/6602530738.html

Do a little homework and see what is available that tickles your fancy

FB- Doug

You are correct.  My phrasing of "offshore" was inaccurate.  The way I see it now, I never plan to lose sight of the front steps of the beach houses.  Just far enough out to get out of the surf and potentially catch some smoother water. (maybe drag some small fishing tackle behind the boat and see if I can hook up on a blue or Spanish mackerel)

Neither of those boats are too far away.  Perfect actually.  The condition of both however appears to leave a bit to be desired.  Right now my biggest internal struggle is to stay at the 14ft size or move up to something along the lines of a 16.  I think it's going to have to depend on the deal that I can find.

Some that I'm looking at (Any and all input appreciated)

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/24030 - Capri 14.2 only a couple hours away from me

https://raleigh.craigslist.org/boa/d/catalina-142/6560845454.html - Older Capri 14.2 about 20 minutes away

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/73158 - American 14.6 - I had a great talk with the owner of this boat.  It's about 5.5-6hrs away, but seems to be the most solid and best kept boat of what I've looked at.  But again, slightly above my price range.  Still considering it though.

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/56718 - Capri 16.5 (in my opinion maybe overpriced) but this would be an example of the type of boat that I'd be willing to pay a few dollars more for.  But am un-decided on if 2 extra feet on a boat is worth 50% more of the cost of a 14.).  Also the location, I'll be in PA in a few weeks and would potentially look at the Ohio boat while I'm there.

https://norfolk.craigslist.org/boa/6601440499.html - Not familiar at all with Flying Scot, but have heard the name thrown around on here a few times.  I'm almost certain I do not want a 19' boat though

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

OTOH there is a gap in the jetty at the north side when the tide is above low, it's possible to sneak thru there and avoid the worst of it.

 

 

At CYC regattas, they always say don't do that.  It will eat up your blades.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, torrid said:

 

At CYC regattas, they always say don't do that.  It will eat up your blades.

agreed. don't do that

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding the Flying Scot, it's a nice boat for the right person but not one that I would take in the ocean. While stable, when capsized you most likely do need outside assistance to get the boat dry. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, torrid said:
7 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

OTOH there is a gap in the jetty at the north side when the tide is above low, it's possible to sneak thru there and avoid the worst of it.

 

 

At CYC regattas, they always say don't do that.  It will eat up your blades.

I think there's an unexpected rock either just before the gap or just after. And the surge can be considerable. I probably shouldn't mention it

:(

Sorry

FB- Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Last night I found what seems to be a great (exceptional condition) American 14.6.  The only suggestion by the current owner is to replace some of the sheets/halyards/etc.
Accessories (trailering/garage cover, mooring cover, 2.3hp Nissan 2 cycle with storage cover, roller furling jib, excellent trailer, may or may not have a spinnaker setup, factory issued coolers for the custom spot at the stern, others that I forgot to mention).

She's asking $2,000 for it, and that's the best price that I've seen on a 2001 or newer by about $1,000.  She is willing to discuss price, but said she knows it's already a good deal.  Might end up picking it up this weekend!?!?!? Even though it's a good price, I may think of throwing out a $1,700-$1,800 offer and seeing if it sticks.  If not...I'd probably be prepared to pick it up at 2 anyway.   Any thoughts on the boat or price from anyone here before I "jump in"?

 

Ran this by my wife, and now all of a sudden she is telling me that a 14.6 foot boat is NOT BIG ENOUGH!!! Talk about the opposite of the problem I thought I was going to have!  I still think I need to get this boat.  Toy around on it a bit, and then potentially look for a mint condition Capri 16.5 or Capri 18.  For that matter, another American 16 or 18 could do the trick as well.

Just sending an update out and seeing if anyone has thoughts and/or comments.

Thanks
Russell

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After a few years you can sell the 14.6 and buy the bigger boat. But smaller boats are easier to right, all else being equal (in other words designs are very similar).
A lot of us raced and cruised 14 foot boats a ton. Arguably the most important length--because of the influence of the International 14 going all the way back to the 20s. I cruised and raced a GP-14. There is plenty of boat there to go out with family and to learn.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If a 14.6 is too small. Probably not going to change even at 16.

i know my wife’s wanted a smaller boat to sail with me. But even a O’Day 17 she had concerns about its size. After a long discussion, we nailed it down to she wanted a cabin and space to lay out comfortably. (Long day trips require a head, some sort of galley, and would be best if we could camp on it) I wonder if you may be facing the same situation. 

All that being said. If she’s not happy with the 14.6, she’s not likely to sail with you on it. And if that’s the case, why are you going with a 14.6 anyways. Get a H16 and rock on. Is something like a Catalina 22 too large?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, fastyacht said:

After a few years you can sell the 14.6 and buy the bigger boat. But smaller boats are easier to right, all else being equal (in other words designs are very similar).
A lot of us raced and cruised 14 foot boats a ton. Arguably the most important length--because of the influence of the International 14 going all the way back to the 20s. I cruised and raced a GP-14. There is plenty of boat there to go out with family and to learn.

I (with my lack of experience) would have to agree with you that it is plenty of boat.

My wife's comments were that "if everybody can't go out at the same time, someone is going to be left out, and thus nobody will ever want to go sailing at all".  It may be a semi-valid point, but what if we start to sail and we go out for the first ride, and then I remain the only one still interested in it? Then I have an 18 foot boat that I have to single-hand all of the time? Much less rig, trailer, right, etc.

Any thoughts on 4 grown adults (or more) on one of these boats?  Probably not recommended AT ALL, but I'm grasping at straws trying to keep the wife 'on board'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, OutofOffice said:

If a 14.6 is too small. Probably not going to change even at 16.

i know my wife’s wanted a smaller boat to sail with me. But even a O’Day 17 she had concerns about its size. After a long discussion, we nailed it down to she wanted a cabin and space to lay out comfortably. (Long day trips require a head, some sort of galley, and would be best if we could camp on it) I wonder if you may be facing the same situation. 

All that being said. If she’s not happy with the 14.6, she’s not likely to sail with you on it. And if that’s the case, why are you going with a 14.6 anyways. Get a H16 and rock on. Is something like a Catalina 22 too large?

I personally think the Catalina 22 is a SUPER boat.  Looks, function, etc.  However I have absolutely ZERO experience in maintaining a boat, and starting with a cabin cruiser is not wise in my opinion (my father in law agrees).  There is just so much more involved in keeping it sea-worthy, rigging, it, etc.

It's frustrating seeing these 14.6 ft dinghy's selling for X amount, where for literally a few dollars more, I could buy a Catalina 22.  They seem to be MUCH more abundant, and thus cheaper.  I feel like the $/ft value, if that is a thing, does not exist on these smaller boats, but you get a lot of boat for the money around that 20 ft range.

 

Thoughts? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

4 grown adults do not fit on a 14 foot dinghy for any real sailing. Pottering around the harbor sure but that's not sailing.
4 grown adults in an American 17 is still too many.
4 on a hobie 16 actually works better than that with breeze over 7 knots. I've done that.
A 20something boat with a cabin is a completely different animal.
Sailing with everyone aboard is a completely different activity than sailing a dinghy.
the difference between a cabin boat and a 14 foot dinghy is similar to the difference between driving an underpowered pre-war school bus versus driving a mini cooper. I am not exaggerating. OK maybe a little.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The reason for the "value" at 22 foot Catalinas is they built a ridiculous number of them, and they don't go into a dumpster as easily as a 14 foot dinghy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, fastyacht said:

The reason for the "value" at 22 foot Catalinas is they built a ridiculous number of them, and they don't go into a dumpster as easily as a 14 foot dinghy.

Seriously we are floating on the offal of the golden age of fiberglass.
Noboy ever need spend more than $500 $300 to get a sailboat.
Heck, I sail a 33 foot boat that went for under 3 grand. With sails. And a keel. Imagine that.

But learn to sail first. on a boat you can manhandle alone, and not get in trouble with, that fits in the yard. Then after 2 years move up if that's where you want to go.
The beautry of spending so little is you don't have to worry about "recovering" the cost. Heck you spend more on your useless moblie phne every 6 mpntsh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Catalina 22 is a great boat if you are going to keep it in the water. Launch/retrieve via trailer it is a PIA though. Buy the boat you will use today, not one that you might use in the future.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, fastyacht said:

The reason for the "value" at 22 foot Catalinas is they built a ridiculous number of them, and they don't go into a dumpster as easily as a 14 foot dinghy.

Zackly

DO NOT get a Catalina 22 unless you plan to rent a slip to keep it in, and use it as a springboard to a bigger fancier boat (like say a Catalina 27). These things are the biggest PITA to trailer/rig/launch. And quite frankly they are not that comfortable nor fun to sail.

https://charleston.craigslist.org/boa/d/rare-holder-20-for-sale/6607604074.html

FB- Doug

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, DialedN_07 said:

 

Thoughts? 

I hear ya. I know that there are a ton of the 22s around, everyone has experience dealing with their inherent problems, parts are plentiful, etc...

frankly, if you were going to get a start in a cabin cruiser. That’s the starting point I’d choose. Keeping it on a trailer will do a lot for minimizing maintenance. Mast up storage would be best case scenario.

I think your wife has a point though. Unless everyone can go, it tends to become a problem. We’re not talking about JetSkis here, where you can take folks for rides. I wouldn’t worry too much about buying too much boat and then realizing no one else wants to go so now you have to solo. People solo 22s and bigger all the time. You’ll get comfortable and figure it out. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

DialedN_07   I can see from your posts and the answers and your response to the answers that you are chasing your tail. My advice is:  DON'T BUY ANYTHING YET!  RENT SOME DIFFERENT KINDS OF BOATS TO LEARN WHAT YOU LIKE. I can guarantee that you will make a big mistake if you try to choose a boat now. I don't sense you are sure just what you want. RENT!!   Happy Sailing!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, DialedN_07 said:

I personally think the Catalina 22 is a SUPER boat.  Looks, function, etc.  However I have absolutely ZERO experience in maintaining a boat, and starting with a cabin cruiser is not wise in my opinion (my father in law agrees).  There is just so much more involved in keeping it sea-worthy, rigging, it, etc.

It's frustrating seeing these 14.6 ft dinghy's selling for X amount, where for literally a few dollars more, I could buy a Catalina 22.  They seem to be MUCH more abundant, and thus cheaper.  I feel like the $/ft value, if that is a thing, does not exist on these smaller boats, but you get a lot of boat for the money around that 20 ft range.

 

Thoughts? 

Don't look at it as a quantifiable $/ft value. That way lies madness.

OTOH if you want to see value, look at the cost of what you're getting vs buying new. My most recent big-ish sailboat (I still have a couple smaller ones, and have owned much bigger ones in the past, and we currently have a 31'power boat) was a Santana 23

post-30927-0-82331400-1463836668_thumb.jpg

This boat was very very slightly longer than the Catalina 22 but slimmer, MUCH much more fun to sail (had a rather dynamic helm though) and due to good design, was actually more comfortable both on deck and below. I would say it was easier to rig & launch but it had a much longer mast (more horsepower = more fun) that required a good bit of careful & skilled labor. Keeping a boat like this in good sailing order takes work, which is why so many boats that have fallen to a low standard (or actually out the bottom of "sail-able condition") are for sale at what seems like a good deal. When the Santana got to the point of needing a new trailer and new sails, and and and, with a total bill of > $20k -plus- a heck of a lot of my time doing jobs far less pleasant than sailing, I decided it would make more sense to go buy a $20K+ boat instead (which I didn't, but that's another story).

If a boat builder was offering new Santana 23s today, they'd almost certainly cost $60K+

The Santana went to a younger couple at a nice low price and they don't mind the condition much .... even with old sails and a soft deck, it's a light air demon and they keep it on a piedmont lake.

Your wife has a good point about all or none.... although it may be possible to bring one or the other of the kids, not both. 4 people in a 14' dinghy is an overload even two of them are small. The American Sail 14.6 is a little better, having a bulkier (tech term) hull, but again it's a trade-off. The Daysailer or the Capri 16.5 would be a little roomier (not a lot) but also sportier.

It's not boat/$ but rather fun/$

Can't answer the pragmatic questions, it sounds like your wife would not like putting the kids with a babysitter to sail with you; the one-kid-but-not-the-other may set up some undesirable situation. OTOH when one kid begins to learn a little bit of crewing and starts having fun, the other will not want to be left out, and you can take both on a 14 ft-er.

Would you consider driving up to Lake Waccamaw?

FB- Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Steam Flyer said:

Your wife has a good point about all or none.... although it may be possible to bring one or the other of the kids, not both. 4 people in a 14' dinghy is an overload even two of them are small. The American Sail 14.6 is a little better, having a bulkier (tech term) hull, but again it's a trade-off. The Daysailer or the Capri 16.5 would be a little roomier (not a lot) but also sportier.

It's not boat/$ but rather fun/$

Can't answer the pragmatic questions, it sounds like your wife would not like putting the kids with a babysitter to sail with you; the one-kid-but-not-the-other may set up some undesirable situation. OTOH when one kid begins to learn a little bit of crewing and starts having fun, the other will not want to be left out, and you can take both on a 14 ft-er.

Would you consider driving up to Lake Waccamaw?

FB- Doug

Doug, good stuff.  We personally don't have any children, and have no immediate plans.  I'm 31 and she is 26 and we are absolutely loving life right now.  But hopefully sometime in the mid-term future. Kids are all nieces and nephews.

Care to elaborate about the Daysailer (Oday?), and Capri 16.5 being faster?  Is that due to sail to mass/length ratio?

Lake Waccamaw is a place I'm familiar with, and yes, I'd be willing to drive there.  It is actually "on the way" to our place at Holden Beach.  And even if not, only 1 hr 22 minutes from my front door (Fayetteville).    Are you referring to the sailing club there?   I saw a local post on CL recently regarding the sail club there looking for new boats and members. 

The one thing I remember about Lake Waccamaw from high school is that "just about anywhere in the lake, you can jump off the boat and touch the bottom".  Probably not entirely true, but we tested it quite a few times, and touched toes each time.

 

2 minutes ago, xonk1 said:

DialedN_07   I can see from your posts and the answers and your response to the answers that you are chasing your tail. My advice is:  DON'T BUY ANYTHING YET!  RENT SOME DIFFERENT KINDS OF BOATS TO LEARN WHAT YOU LIKE. I can guarantee that you will make a big mistake if you try to choose a boat now. I don't sense you are sure just what you want. RENT!!   Happy Sailing!

 The wise recommendations are those that are hardest to follow!  I believe you are correct.
The way my stubborn mind is thinking of it currently is that even if the market is not that big for these types of boats, it would be hard to lose on the deal.  If I paid less than $2k for the opportunity to learn on a small boat that I can (probably) right by myself.  Make a few mistakes, but learn more.  It has paid for itself even if I can't sell the thing in the future. 
Sure I can see myself keeping this for a year or two, then upgrading.  Would you consider that a bad buy?

I have definitely abandoned the idea of getting 2 boats for now.  Although it is still on the table, the second one rather than being almost identical, would likely be slightly larger in order to accommodate different needs that my family has. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, OutofOffice said:

I think your wife has a point though. Unless everyone can go, it tends to become a problem. We’re not talking about JetSkis here, where you can take folks for rides.

She has an annoying tenancy to be right more often than not.
True about "rides".  This one has a 2.3hp motor which would help, but is still not as easy as sliding it on the beach and powering back out like a jetski.  No hop-on-hop-off kind of thing here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, DialedN_07 said:

She has an annoying tenancy to be right more often than not.
True about "rides".  This one has a 2.3hp motor which would help, but is still not as easy as sliding it on the beach and powering back out like a jetski.  No hop-on-hop-off kind of thing here.

I had hoped when I bought my Hobie 18 that I was getting the best "hop on/hop off" ride boat I could get. While it is certainly better than a daysailer for that purpose, it still didn't work.

Another option here, is getting her a boat too. Like JetSkis, dirtbikes and any other day use toy, its always more fun with more than one. 14.6 may be a little tight for two full grown adults, but its great for single-handed sailing. Then everyone gets to learn and have the excitement of being in control of a vessel that will take them where ever they wish to go. (I maybe cheesy with that but there is something thrilling about knowing that regardless of your vessel, pick a destination and you can sail there. Gas be damned.) Plus, people tend to loosen up tremendously (regardless of if they are just crew or are the sole person onboard) just knowing there's another boat on the water with them that will be there if something goes wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, DialedN_07 said:

She has an annoying tenancy to be right more often than not.
True about "rides".  This one has a 2.3hp motor which would help, but is still not as easy as sliding it on the beach and powering back out like a jetski.  No hop-on-hop-off kind of thing here.

That's why we stay married....... but that's another story

A small outboard is a good part of the "contributing value" of a boat package but it also needs careful evaluation because it could easily be negative. I would not give a penny for an outboard that I could not run in front of me, while looking at the boat. In a place like Masonboro or Myrtle Grove, an engine would great when the wind dies and tidal current is running. At Lake Waccamaw it would be an unnecessary PITA.

You're right about Lake Waccamaw being shallow and this becomes a problem if the boat capsizes. But it's also a much more controlled and user-friendly environment. The sailing club there is a nice little park, nice beach. I have no idea what they're charging these days.

About different types of small boats.... there are a gazillion, and many of them are as different as cheese and Wednesday. You can construct a linear comparison of sail area / weight (or displacement, not quite the same thing) but then you also need to compare many other variables. Without getting far into the weeds of esoteric boat characteristics, the best way to compare is to just see how the boats are used; then look at the specifics of how each boat is equipped. The Daysailer is (or used to be) a fairly large one-design class, with a lot of families sailing/racing them. The Capri/Catalina 14.2 less so, but the sportiness and responsiveness of them is more the point than pure speed. They are fun to sail without requiring a lot of athletics or heroics; and they sail well enough to be good learning platforms. OTOH the American 14.6 is a well built boat but frankly is not a lot of fun to sail. I'm not sure it would make a good learning platform. I know the family who owns that business and I really wish they had taken up a professional design but they are proud of having done it themselves.

Here's a group I'm involved with, and illustrates some of the differences http://nbnjrotc-sail.blogspot.com/

The ODay Javelins (sadly no longer made) are like station wagons with a good V8 (huge mainsail). They are responsive enough to be good teaching platforms, roomy enough for an adult and two or three kids, stable enough that they are difficult to capsize (I did so with a particularly inept student on a cold day, the only time a Javelin has capsized in the 6+ years we've been using them), and they're toughly built. The ones we have are watertight, largely self-bailing, and they were all donated. They have soaked up an average of 50 man-hours work and about $900 worth of parts/rope/sails, each, to get them into condition where they are usable in the program.

Compare to the photos of the two excited kids in the FJs, zipping around. Same length (14'), actually less sail area, and less weight difference than you'd think. But the FJs are sports cars, capsize readily (they have full flotation so pulling them upright and getting going is part of the fun..... and part of the training), require quicker reflexes and an enjoyment of undignified splashing about.

The Javelin is the smaller sister of the Daysailer..... almost the same hull, slightly bigger rig (mostly in the jib), add a nice little cuddy cabin (storage, playhouse for knee-highs). The Daysailer will sail rings around the Javelin and be slightly more stable but just as responsive. Both are products of lat 1950s/early60s design where it was assumed the sailor would give a fuck and pay attention. Boats like the newer Capri 14.2 and even more so the 16.5 have attempted to keep the responsiveness and lessen the quirkiness / tendency to bite. More user-friendly.

I apologize for writing out a book. This sort of went stream-of-consciousness but I hope it contains something useful

FB- Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/6/2018 at 11:42 AM, DialedN_07 said:

Last night I found what seems to be a great (exceptional condition) American 14.6.  The only suggestion by the current owner is to replace some of the sheets/halyards/etc.
Accessories (trailering/garage cover, mooring cover, 2.3hp Nissan 2 cycle with storage cover, roller furling jib, excellent trailer, may or may not have a spinnaker setup, factory issued coolers for the custom spot at the stern, others that I forgot to mention).

She's asking $2,000 for it, and that's the best price that I've seen on a 2001 or newer by about $1,000.  She is willing to discuss price, but said she knows it's already a good deal.  Might end up picking it up this weekend!?!?!? Even though it's a good price, I may think of throwing out a $1,700-$1,800 offer and seeing if it sticks.  If not...I'd probably be prepared to pick it up at 2 anyway.   Any thoughts on the boat or price from anyone here before I "jump in"?

 

Thanks
Russell

I would be very tempted by that deal. Mostly because the motor, if it's running well, could be worth $750 and it has the roller furling upgrade that adds some value.

After watching the video on the American Sail link, it has a better layout than my Holder with maybe an extra foot of cockpit space. I agree with others that it won't be your last boat if the family does like sailing. Even if you keep the motor and sell the 14.6 in a year, you still have a motor that will get a 17' Daysailor out of the harbor.

None of us can tell you much about your family's reaction to sailing. Sometimes older and more civilized people run back to shore the first time a boat heels over a little never to return. On the other hand some will be hiking out in 20 mph winds. If your kids are teens, they might sail with you 5 times to learn the ropes and want a $400 Sunfish of their own.  Heed the advice of those who say stepping the mast of a 17' is the max for one large adult and a young helper. Also boats get heavy once they start adding lead in the hull and cast iron center boards. A 14 is probably around 380 lbs ready to sail, a 17' DS2 around 600 lbs, A Mariner 19' 1150 lbs and a Catalina 22 around 2600 lbs. 

You don't want to become that guy with the 3000 lb permanent lawn ornament. If you do, there are people on CL that will pay you $100 to remove a 27' sailboat from the stands in their yard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Eddie_E said:

I would be very tempted by that deal. Mostly because the motor, if it's running well, could be worth $750 and it has the roller furling upgrade that adds some value.

After watching the video on the American Sail link, it has a better layout than my Holder with maybe an extra foot of cockpit space. I agree with others that it won't be your last boat if the family does like sailing. Even if you keep the motor and sell the 14.6 in a year, you still have a motor that will get a 17' Daysailor out of the harbor.

Pretty spot on with the logic that I was using.


The motor was run 1 month ago, but not in the water (using water hose).  Lady's husband recommended a tune up, but said it will not fail me.  It also has some other extras that I did not mention.  This boat lists at 340lbs equipped.
Even though I knew it was a good, bordering great deal, I offered her $1,700 ($2,000 asking price) on Tuesday and we ended up settling on $1,800.  I'm leaving after work today to go pick it up.

The next closest American 14.6 or Catalina 14.2 I could find in even close to the same condition was 10 years older and $1,000 more!
I'm pretty well pleased.  It wasn't the deal of the century, but the way I look at it, if I ever decide to sell it, I really don't see a scenario where I wouldn't get my money back out of it, either through value of my use, or the actual selling price to someone else.

20180606_175358.jpg

20180606_175648.jpg

20180606_175732.jpg

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, fastyacht said:

It even has slab reefing!

Can you elaborate on the slab reefing?  I k ow what reefing is, just. It familiar with the slab part.

So I had the boat out this weekend......I'm in love.

I was a bit cocky and underestimated the time it takes to rig it completely solo. Same for taking it down and putting it back on the trailer.  But I'm sure each time a few minutes will be shaved off.  The lines are in awful shape, but I've measured them all, and it looks like its ABOUT the same to order original as the cheapest place I could find online.  So I'll probably order direct from American.

I have a couple of questions that I'll post about either here or in another thread later, but in the meantime....here's a couple pics!

IMG952450.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, DialedN_07 said:

Can you elaborate on the slab reefing?  I k ow what reefing is, just. It familiar with the slab part.

So I had the boat out this weekend......I'm in love.

I was a bit cocky and underestimated the time it takes to rig it completely solo. Same for taking it down and putting it back on the trailer.  But I'm sure each time a few minutes will be shaved off.  The lines are in awful shape, but I've measured them all, and it looks like its ABOUT the same to order original as the cheapest place I could find online.  So I'll probably order direct from American.

I have a couple of questions that I'll post about either here or in another thread later, but in the meantime....here's a couple pics!

IMG952450.jpg

 

VERY F'n COOL BRO! That looks you all are going to have a blast.

Tip 1- turn the boat bow-to-wind. This will make it much much much easier to handle at the dock, putting sails up or down, etc etc.

Slab Reefing- those grommets on the front edge and back edge of the mainsail. The purpose is to make the sail smaller for strong winds. Connect these grommets at the gooseneck and outhaul just like normal, and roll up / tie the bottom part of the sail (securely, it will try to get loose and flog around making a mess).

I'd also suggest not sailing barefoot, but you may not be as clumsy as I am or most of the people I have sailed with. Having seen a heck of a lot of painful but minor foot injuries, and a few that were quite serious, it's not worth it.

Meanwhile congrats again, looks like you really have a reason to look forward to the weekends now!

FB- Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Doug, thanks for the feedback! Much appreciated.

Regarding sails up....I had a mini fit with the boat in the AM and spend 2.5 hrs trying to get the outboard to run (which I finally did) and by that time the wife and family were waiting for me at the house a little over 2 miles away.  I threw up the sails and went as fast as I could.  The main had a pinch point up at the top and I was having difficulty getting it all the way to the top of the mast.  Also, in haste, I over allocated my cleats at the bottom of the mast and couldn't figure out the best place to keep all of my halyards and downhauls tied off, so as you can see, my lines are a mess.

Questions:

1: With the reefing system, there is normally a gromet in the middle of the sail, but that is not the case here, I can see that causing the reefing to get a little bit sloppy, is there a good way to tie up the center of the sail at the boom if I ever decide to reef the main? Also, do you tie off the front grommet with a rope, or try to replace it in the shackle at the tack(?) corner of the main and boom?  If not done with a rope, I don't see how I would get the foot of the sail out of the boom to make way for the new gromet, unless I were to somehow be able to slide the two grommets side by side in the same shackle.....I'll have to look at this.

2: My boom will fall any time I try to lower the main.  I've seen a couple of different methods to fix this, and American now (on their newer boats) provide a topping lift kit and rope which puts an additional pullet at the top of the mast, and an additional cleat at the bottom near the downhaul cleat.  The problem is, my boat does not have this installed.  Would there be an easier way for me to solve the boom falling problem?  I don't see any way that I would be able to reef the main as the boom would just fall if I ever tried to do that!

3: My centerboard drug the soft sand a couple times and folded back nicely, but my centerboard has two centerboard cleats.  Obviously you can cleat the centerboard "up" in various positions depending on the wind, but would there ever be a reason to clean the centerboard DOWN?

4: I adjusted the pins on my sidestays to one hole tighter (each) and that made my front stay much more difficult to pin on the bow stem solo.  However, once it was pinned, everything was very tight.  There was no real "wiggle" previously, but with this new setting, everything is tight.  As long as I'm doing it by hand, and not pulling it fore with a winch or something, is there a such thing as too tight for my side and front stays?

5: What is the best way to determine how tight my traveler rope needs to be?  I feel like it is tensioned correctly, but sometimes it feels like it may be a bit loose (stretched).  Is there a general rule of thumb for this?

6: Where/how does everyone keep their additional "ropes" hallyards at when done tying off?  I pulled out the tensioned line and snugged the loops between it and the mast.  Seemed to work well except when the jib sheets would hit them from time to time during a tack

7: I'm sure there are other questions that I've forgotten about already

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now