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The high price of stale grievances

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A brilliant essay for you today on race in America. The final two paragraphs follow but the entire essay is well worth your time. Remarkably the guy is still an under-grad.  I think we are going to be hearing a lot more from Coleman.

 "Given America’s brutal history of white racism, it is understandable that the pendulum of racial double-standards has swung in the opposite direction—indeed, it is a testament to our laudable, if naïve, desire to fix history—but the status quo cannot be maintained indefinitely. Cracks in the reparations mindset are beginning to show themselves. Whites are noticing that black leaders still use historical grievances to justify special dispensations for blacks who were born decades after the end of Jim Crow—and many whites understandably resent this. Asian students are noticing that applying to elite colleges is an uphill battle for them, and are understandably fighting for basic fairness in admissions standards. The majority of blacks themselves are noticing that bias is not the main issue they face anymore, even as blacks who dare express this view are called race traitors.

As these cracks widen, the far-Left responds by doubling down on the radical strain of black identity politics that caused these problems to begin with, and the far-Right responds with its own toxic strain of white identity politics. Stale grievances are dredged up from history and used to justify double-standards that create fresh grievances in turn. And beneath all of this lies the tacit claim that blacks are uniquely constrained by history in a way that Jewish-Americans, East Asian-Americans, Indian-Americans, and countless other historically marginalized ethnic groups are not. In the midst of this breakdown in civil discourse, we must ask ourselves—academics, journalists, activists, politicians, and concerned citizens alike—if we are on a path towards a thriving multi-ethnic democracy or a balkanized hotbed of racial and political tribalism".

Coleman Hughes

https://quillette.com/2018/06/05/high-price-stale-grievances/

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55 minutes ago, Dog said:

 

A brilliant essay for you today on race in America. The final two paragraphs follow but the entire essay is well worth your time. Remarkably the guy is still an under-grad.  I think we are going to be hearing a lot more from Coleman.

 "Given America’s brutal history of white racism, it is understandable that the pendulum of racial double-standards has swung in the opposite direction—indeed, it is a testament to our laudable, if naïve, desire to fix history—but the status quo cannot be maintained indefinitely. Cracks in the reparations mindset are beginning to show themselves. Whites are noticing that black leaders still use historical grievances to justify special dispensations for blacks who were born decades after the end of Jim Crow—and many whites understandably resent this. Asian students are noticing that applying to elite colleges is an uphill battle for them, and are understandably fighting for basic fairness in admissions standards. The majority of blacks themselves are noticing that bias is not the main issue they face anymore, even as blacks who dare express this view are called race traitors.

As these cracks widen, the far-Left responds by doubling down on the radical strain of black identity politics that caused these problems to begin with, and the far-Right responds with its own toxic strain of white identity politics. Stale grievances are dredged up from history and used to justify double-standards that create fresh grievances in turn. And beneath all of this lies the tacit claim that blacks are uniquely constrained by history in a way that Jewish-Americans, East Asian-Americans, Indian-Americans, and countless other historically marginalized ethnic groups are not. In the midst of this breakdown in civil discourse, we must ask ourselves—academics, journalists, activists, politicians, and concerned citizens alike—if we are on a path towards a thriving multi-ethnic democracy or a balkanized hotbed of racial and political tribalism".

Coleman Hughes

https://quillette.com/2018/06/05/high-price-stale-grievances/

Diversity is a great tool to establish a divide.

 

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1 hour ago, Saorsa said:

Diversity is a great tool to establish a divide.

 

And stale grievances are an excuse for disparate treatment which is ultimately socially destructive.

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Yep.  Pretty much exactly what I've been saying here all along wrt to race relations.  He just did it far more eloquently.  

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Another excerpt - 
"At the turn of the 20th century, Italian-Americans committed crime at three times the rate of German-Americans. The issue was not danced around, to say the least. But the moment one makes this comparison, one runs into the brick wall of history. Italians, it will be argued, were not brutally enslaved and formally subjugated in America, nor were they trailing centuries of deadly stereotyping. Here again, I question not the truth, but the relevance of these appeals to history. Those who fall back on such appeals act as if they are content to live in a country where the state monopoly on violence—which has been a precondition for peace and prosperity in the developed world4—has yet to fully penetrate high-crime communities of color. They act as if they are content that homicide is the leading cause of death for black men and boys age 15-34—a fact which cannot remotely be said of any other ethnicity/age group in the country. They act as if they are content with this grim status quo, so long as we keep the abstract threat of white supremacy at bay. Of course, they are not actually happy with this status quo. But from the way in which they stonewall anyone who mentions these facts; from the way in which left-wing media choose to amplify inflated concerns about the police over under-reported concerns about crime, and from the way in which many on the Left replace honest disagreement on these topics with mind-reading accusations of racism, one could mistakenly get the impression that the Left is content to sacrifice thousands of underprivileged black men and boys per year on the altar of progressive sensibilities."

Bolded part is my emphasis - I'd invite several posters here to consider Mr Coleman's perspective.   

I hope we do get to hear more from him, as well as informed rebuttals to his positions. 

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1 hour ago, Dog said:

And stale grievances are an excuse for disparate treatment which is ultimately socially destructive.

The author has a point if the scope of his argument is little more today college admission boards.

But the idea of a "stale" grievance is obliterated the moment you spend some time in an urban ghetto. Only the best and most gifted are able to escape that. The nature of the economy is glue ... poor people pay more for everything, their lives and families can be ripped apart by little more than a traffic ticket. Generations on top of generations get stuck there because of pure economic inertia.

It's a sexy idea, the one this author proposes, but it's one built on a childlike ignorance of reality. Colleges, by nature, are for those who can afford not to work a couple minimum wage jobs for a few years to support a family. College is for those who have the luxury of even being able to see education as opportunity. For all those children in inner city failing schools who can't muster good grades and ambition, education produces little measurable benefit ... they'll make minimum wage with or without knowledge of math and grammar. It's the luxury of the middle class to build on the fruits of the labor of our parents. That generational benefit is obliterated in poverty, arguably by design.

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4 minutes ago, mikewof said:

The author has a point if the scope of his argument is little more today college admission boards.

But the idea of a "stale" grievance is obliterated the moment you spend some time in an urban ghetto. Only the best and most gifted are able to escape that. The nature of the economy is glue ... poor people pay more for everything, their lives and families can be ripped apart by little more than a traffic ticket. Generations on top of generations get stuck there because of pure economic inertia.

It's a sexy idea, the one this author proposes, but it's one built on a childlike ignorance of reality.

Reality?  The reality is no one living today has suffered from the stale grievances and no one today perpetrated them. As Hughes points out, it's naive to attempt to correct history. The dependent urban ghetto population today is largely the result of the good intentioned attempting it.

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The more you can ignore racial statistics in policing and sentencing, starting in schools and continuing throughout life, the more you can tell yourself that racial grievances are stale. 

The more you can empower the wealthy and offer them tax breaks while slashing funding and other supports for schools, housing subsidies and jobs programs, the more you can keep the rabble in their place. 

Poor blacks today are subject to all the inequality subjected to all American poor plus any racial bias in the system. Whites and Asians complaining about bias against them (and I am legitimately one of them) are snowflakes if they can’t succeed if they are of reasonable means. If they are poor, then perhaps they have a point.  

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Being poor really sucks, for every hand that lifts you there are multiple boots pushing you down. If you are black? Not a problem as long as you white wash everything.

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32 minutes ago, mikewof said:

The author has a point if the scope of his argument is little more today college admission boards.

But the idea of a "stale" grievance is obliterated the moment you spend some time in an urban ghetto. Only the best and most gifted are able to escape that. The nature of the economy is glue ... poor people pay more for everything, their lives and families can be ripped apart by little more than a traffic ticket. Generations on top of generations get stuck there because of pure economic inertia.

It's a sexy idea, the one this author proposes, but it's one built on a childlike ignorance of reality. Colleges, by nature, are for those who can afford not to work a couple minimum wage jobs for a few years to support a family. College is for those who have the luxury of even being able to see education as opportunity. For all those children in inner city failing schools who can't muster good grades and ambition, education produces little measurable benefit ... they'll make minimum wage with or without knowledge of math and grammar. It's the luxury of the middle class to build on the fruits of the labor of our parents. That generational benefit is obliterated in poverty, arguably by design.

You were doing OK 'til that last statement, which rendered your position utter BS.  That aside - how do you propose to improve the condition of those who's plight you bemoan, Mike?    Who's got responsibility for what? 

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2 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

Being poor really sucks, for every hand that lifts you there are multiple boots pushing you down. If you are black? Not a problem as long as you white wash everything.

Expound on that, if you don't mind.  

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4 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

You were doing OK 'til that last statement, which rendered your position utter BS.  That aside - how do you propose to improve the condition of those who's plight you bemoan, Mike?    Who's got responsibility for what? 

You disagree about the design part? Please elaborate and then I'm happy to discuss responsibilities and ideas.

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1 minute ago, mikewof said:

You disagree about the design part? Please elaborate and then I'm happy to discuss responsibilities and ideas.

No - I won't argue to prove the negative.   Did you read the article, or are you just replying based upon what you think he meant with the title? 

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Just now, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Expound on that, if you don't mind.  

Everything costs more - your credit sucks, if you have any. Can't get a bank account? Going to pay for check cashing. Good job? uh, not going to happen without good credit. Car insurance costs more, the pay day lenders, the huckster car dealers, rent to own ripoffs, everything works to keep poor people in debt.  Want to know how I know this?  If you have ever been poor and I mean lost everything and owe on top of it no explanation is necessary.  Did I recover? yep, certainly didn't hurt that I am male, white and college educated but there were some rough moments, including being arrested for an unpaid parking ticket and facing 3 days in jail if I can't find someone to bail me on a Sunday morning.  That was almost $500 20 years ago that I really didn't have.  Had a job interview scheduled or I would have said fuck it, lets do it. Of course that would have racked up more storage for my car that was towed.  Ever been taunted by a cop nazi? I have and can only wonder how much worse if were a big scary looking black guy. 

I interact daily with people from all walks of life and I don't bullshit, embellish or lie.  Poor people often make poor self defeating decisions, black people brand themselves by naming their children obviously black names, I could go on but like most subjects here few are interested in learning.

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9 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

You were doing OK 'til that last statement, which rendered your position utter BS.  That aside - how do you propose to improve the condition of those who's plight you bemoan, Mike?    Who's got responsibility for what? 

You only have to look at traffic laws. Blacks far more often to be stopped for minor infractions, burned out taillight, etc, than whites. And they get a couple hundred dollar ticket, where whites get a warning. That was much of what the Ferguson protests were about. 

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2 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

Everything costs more - your credit sucks, if you have any. Can't get a bank account? Going to pay for check cashing. Good job? uh, not going to happen without good credit. Car insurance costs more, the pay day lenders, the huckster car dealers, rent to own ripoffs, everything works to keep poor people in debt.  Want to know how I know this?  If you have ever been poor and I mean lost everything and owe on top of it no explanation is necessary.  Did I recover? yep, certainly didn't hurt that I am male, white and college educated but there were some rough moments, including being arrested for an unpaid parking ticket and facing 3 days in jail if I can't find someone to bail me on a Sunday morning.  That was almost $500 20 years ago that I really didn't have.  Had a job interview scheduled or I would have said fuck it, lets do it. Of course that would have racked up more storage for my car that was towed.  Ever been taunted by a cop nazi? I have and can only wonder how much worse if were a big scary looking black guy. 

I interact daily with people from all walks of life and I don't bullshit, embellish or lie.  Poor people often make poor self defeating decisions, black people brand themselves by naming their children obviously black names, I could go on but like most subjects here few are interested in learning.

Thanks for explaining, D - I was hoping that that's where you were going, and yeah - for many of those things, I've been there too.   To the point that the "system" allows those predatory practices to exist, I can accept the idea of there being systemic problems.  I can't accept the notion proffered by many ( I don't think you're doing that in this conversation) that those things exist due to explicit, intentional racial bias.   

For all the race baiters - I'd like to point out that this small interaction is what I mean when I say that honest discussion is the way forward.  Nowhere did D call anyone a racist for questioning/disagreeing - he pointed out the real factors that he sees as contributing to the problem.  I think he's right - criminalizing poverty is a problem, so are predatory practices that prey primarily on those w/low incomes/lesser education.   

So - if we've identified causal factors, the responsibility then becomes engineering solutions that address and remediate those causalities.   Claiming that everything that's wrong is due to inherent racism without offering any substantiation beyond "if more X are stopped, that must mean that Cops are biased against X".   Claiming racism and saying "until THEY stop being racist, nothing is going to change" is a cop out, and an avoidance of the discussion of the real problems and causalities.  Claiming that responsibility for change lies only with one group of society is disingenuous and ineffective.  If we want to tackle the problem, everyone has a role. 

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For the record I frequently meet old white people who are racist and assume that I would agree with them being an old white guy.  the "n" word is still commonly used by these good folks.  What isn't surprising is that it's most common among poor people - being poor is being vulnerable and being vulnerable makes one easily afraid.  Fear is a common tool used to control people.  It could also be true that the more affluent whites are more careful about expressing their views as they understand risk/reward.

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Can anyone explain to me the disparity in sentencing guidelines with respect to cocaine versus "crack" cocaine?  

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14 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Thanks for explaining, D - I was hoping that that's where you were going, and yeah - for many of those things, I've been there too.   To the point that the "system" allows those predatory practices to exist, I can accept the idea of there being systemic problems.  I can't accept the notion proffered by many ( I don't think you're doing that in this conversation) that those things exist due to explicit, intentional racial bias.   

For all the race baiters - I'd like to point out that this small interaction is what I mean when I say that honest discussion is the way forward.  Nowhere did D call anyone a racist for questioning/disagreeing - he pointed out the real factors that he sees as contributing to the problem.  I think he's right - criminalizing poverty is a problem, so are predatory practices that prey primarily on those w/low incomes/lesser education.   

So - if we've identified causal factors, the responsibility then becomes engineering solutions that address and remediate those causalities.   Claiming that everything that's wrong is due to inherent racism without offering any substantiation beyond "if more X are stopped, that must mean that Cops are biased against X".   Claiming racism and saying "until THEY stop being racist, nothing is going to change" is a cop out, and an avoidance of the discussion of the real problems and causalities.  Claiming that responsibility for change lies only with one group of society is disingenuous and ineffective.  If we want to tackle the problem, everyone has a role. 

The more statistics we gather in race-based policing, the more I’m convinced it does occur, starting in kindergarten. Doesn’t convince you, ok, but doesn’t mean it ain’t happening. 

In my own career I’ve seen instances where likeable rogues have been counseled and tolerated when white & male, but dealt with more harshly when the dude was browner. I’m speaking up more now that I’m established. Advocacy CAN change culture. 

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11 minutes ago, amphib44 said:

Can anyone explain to me the disparity in sentencing guidelines with respect to cocaine versus "crack" cocaine?  

Presumably you are looking for a "crack is a low rent drug used by brown people" response but the reality is that crack is a much worse drug - it's effects are far more devastating so within the admittedly stupid context of the WOD it should carry a heavier sentence.

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6 minutes ago, phillysailor said:

The more statistics we gather in race-based policing, the more I’m convinced it does occur, starting in kindergarten. Doesn’t convince you, ok, but doesn’t mean it ain’t happening. 

In my own career I’ve seen instances where likeable rogues have been counseled and tolerated when white & male, but dealt with more harshly when the dude was browner. I’m speaking up more now that I’m established. Advocacy CAN change culture. 

Did you read Mr Coleman's article, or are you replying only to the comments in this thread?

The racial disparity in the measurements you mention ought to cause you to investigate WHY the disparity exists, rather than to ascribing it to intentional bias, and vilifying everyone who disagrees as a racist.  To your example - I think that what you mention may very well happen, but, your description neglects the possibility that the "browner kid" who's acting up may also have a longer history of "acting up" and that the harsher dealings are a result of that history, and not due to the inherent racism of the person meting out the harsher treatment.   That possibility isn't offered to explain away racism when it does exist, but, to point out that looking at the single instance and deciding from it that something is inherently biased, absent the consideration of other factors is a flawed approach. 

I lived in the projects outside Baltimore when I was a kid - I got looks and got followed when I walked in a store - you can't hide poor, and poor begets distrust when someone thinks that because you don't look like you have any money, that you wouldn't be there unless you were going to steal something. So yeah - I do "get it", and while I agree that advocacy can change culture, advocacy that's focused on saying "You bastards - you killed Kenny" ain't gonna fix anything. 

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What ignorant tripe. 

“The pendulum has swung the other way”

Really??

It probably had started back from the limit of its fullest swing but in no way shape or form has that pendulum EVER come close to the center. 

The fact is blacks are still second class humans in America. The single most obvious proof?? People still notice skin color and believe it is worth mentioning. 

Skin color is no more significant than eye color, hair color, height, whether you can roll your tongue in a circle, whether your earlobes dangle or are attached on the side, whether you are right or left handed, the size of your boobs, the size of your penis, or any other genetically controlled “difference.”

If you think it matters YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM!!!!

How utterly absurd!! The pendulum has swung?? What an ignorant RACIST buffoon!!!!

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What about crack vs. heroin? 

 

The Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1986 also required a minimum sentence of 5 years for drug offenses that involved 5 grams of crack, 500 grams of cocaine, 1 kilogram of heroin, 40 grams of a substance with a detectable amount of fentanyl, 5 grams of methamphetamine, 100 kilograms or 100 plants of marijuana, and other drugs (21 U.S.C. 841(b)(1)(B), P.L. 99-570). 

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12 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Did you read Mr Coleman's article, or are you replying only to the comments in this thread?

The racial disparity in the measurements you mention ought to cause you to investigate WHY the disparity exists, rather than to ascribing it to intentional bias, and vilifying everyone who disagrees as a racist.  To your example - I think that what you mention may very well happen, but, your description neglects the possibility that the "browner kid" who's acting up may also have a longer history of "acting up" and that the harsher dealings are a result of that history, and not due to the inherent racism of the person meting out the harsher treatment.   That possibility isn't offered to explain away racism when it does exist, but, to point out that looking at the single instance and deciding from it that something is inherently biased, absent the consideration of other factors is a flawed approach. 

Actually, I was referring to an actual scenario in my professional career. I believe it can happen, therefore, in any environment. 

And I’m not “vilifying everyone as racist” unless pointing out how unintentional racial bias affects hire/fire/prosecute/let-off-with-a-warning choices are viewed only through a defensive lens. I am aware that I’ve got racial biases, and don’t feel too self-vilified, for example. 

And some of the stats I’ve read which show disparities in enforcement from schools to prison terms do take into account past records, so they’ve taken steps to nullify your defense of what appears to be systemic racial bias. Not that you’ll be impressed.

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This thread reinforces my feeling that the disparities are mostly (not all, but mostly) due to economics rather than pure racism.  I've said that many times before.  Its very easy to ascribe all the issue of the african-Murican community to race - I would argue its more due to class and poverty given that they far more represented in poverty as a % of their overall demographics.  Address the poverty issue and you by default address the race issue, IMHO.  Making it all about race does nothing but kill any effort at actually getting to the root of the problem. 

I think the OP article is correct that we cling to race as an easy scapegoat because dealing with the class and economic issues are far harder and more pervasive.

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Sorry - I'm not sure how to take your comment of an hour ago if you didn't intend it as vilification.   If I misunderstood, I'd enjoy being squared away - I'm not sitting there with you, I can only respond to what I think you meant by the words you wrote. 

5 minutes ago, phillysailor said:

And I’m not “vilifying everyone as racist” unless pointing out how unintentional racial bias affects hire/fire/prosecute/let-off-with-a-warning choices are viewed only through a defensive lens

1 hour ago, phillysailor said:

The more you can empower the wealthy and offer them tax breaks while slashing funding and other supports for schools, housing subsidies and jobs programs, the more you can keep the rabble in their place.

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24 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Did you read Mr Coleman's article, or are you replying only to the comments in this thread?

The racial disparity in the measurements you mention ought to cause you to investigate WHY the disparity exists, rather than to ascribing it to intentional bias, and vilifying everyone who disagrees as a racist.  To your example - I think that what you mention may very well happen, but, your description neglects the possibility that the "browner kid" who's acting up may also have a longer history of "acting up" and that the harsher dealings are a result of that history, and not due to the inherent racism of the person meting out the harsher treatment.   That possibility isn't offered to explain away racism when it does exist, but, to point out that looking at the single instance and deciding from it that something is inherently biased, absent the consideration of other factors is a flawed approach. 

I lived in the projects outside Baltimore when I was a kid - I got looks and got followed when I walked in a store - you can't hide poor, and poor begets distrust when someone thinks that because you don't look like you have any money, that you wouldn't be there unless you were going to steal something. So yeah - I do "get it", and while I agree that advocacy can change culture, advocacy that's focused on saying "You bastards - you killed Kenny" ain't gonna fix anything. 

OTOH your continuing outrage that there is some outrage against racism is a sure cure, eh?

-DSK

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Anytime someone offers a "many on the Left" (hell, it could also be "many on the right") as an observation, I know it just partisan bullshit.

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11 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

OTOH your continuing outrage that there is some outrage against racism is a sure cure, eh?

-DSK

My "outrage" isn't with pointing out racism, its with the insistence that every poor condition is a result of intentional racism, without any support for that premise.  You know that, but, it's PA, and you just like thinking that you're pushing buttons. 

1 minute ago, Raz'r said:

Anytime someone offers a "many on the Left" (hell, it could also be "many on the right") as an observation, I know it just partisan bullshit.

Did either of you read the article?   

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7 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:
21 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

OTOH your continuing outrage that there is some outrage against racism is a sure cure, eh?

-DSK

My "outrage" isn't with pointing out racism, its with the insistence that every poor condition is a result of intentional racism, without any support for that premise.  You know that, but, it's PA, and you just like thinking that you're pushing buttons. 

Not really.

Of course it's pure hyperbole to say that anybody here is insisting "that every poor condition is a result of intentional racism." So you're tarring yourself with your own brush.

I've made the points I bring from personal experience, many times, and it only gets you worked up into hurling insults. If you enjoy that, go ahead without me.

-DSK

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Just reading the responses for those on the left.  It is clear they either didn’t read the article or read it and instantly dismissed it because they represent the people and views the author is addressing. 

I always wonder why a Vietnamese family that came to America as boat people with nothing more than the cloths on their backs.  Adapted so well that their kids and grandkids are going to college earning top degrees.   In other words they are thriving living the American Dream.   Yet generations of african  Americans  with all the options available still can not achieve the same dream. 

Actually I don’t wonder. It’s described in one word.  Sacrifice.  Those parents ate rice lived in basements saved every penny to make their kids lives better.  That attitude is passed down.  Homework and classes vs sports.  No TV, no game boys no surfing the web you get a B in math you are in trouble. 

In other words no excuses 

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10 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Not really.

Of course it's pure hyperbole to say that anybody here is insisting "that every poor condition is a result of intentional racism." So you're tarring yourself with your own brush.

I've made the points I bring from personal experience, many times, and it only gets you worked up into hurling insults. If you enjoy that, go ahead without me.

-DSK

I don't discount your personal experiences, but, I don't think that they are enough to describe the totality of the condition, and that's what it seems you're trying awfully hard to do.  You didn't read the article, did ya?  Why not, because I said I liked it? 

 

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12 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Not really.

Of course it's pure hyperbole to say that anybody here is insisting "that every poor condition is a result of intentional racism." So you're tarring yourself with your own brush.

I've made the points I bring from personal experience, many times, and it only gets you worked up into hurling insults. If you enjoy that, go ahead without me.

-DSK

Self aware much?

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Just now, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

I don't discount your personal experiences

Actually, you've done exactly that.

Many times.

Under the banner that I seem to you to be advocating "equal outcomes"

Far from claiming anything universal, -all- I have said is: yes there IS racial prejudice affecting college admissions and job hiring nowadays in the US, and therefor laws against racial discrimination are justified.

-DSK

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5 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Actually, you've done exactly that.

Many times.

Under the banner that I seem to you to be advocating "equal outcomes"

Far from claiming anything universal, -all- I have said is: yes there IS racial prejudice affecting college admissions and job hiring nowadays in the US, and therefor laws against racial discrimination are justified.

 -DSK

IIRC - I told you that I disagreed with your focus on quotas, and felt that the discrimination laws that are in place have been in place long enough to be accepted as the right and proper way to do things, and that any place that was concerned about its success wanted the best candidates, and wouldn't discriminate against potential hires on the basis of race.   Go read the article - and if you dare, take a look at the author's picture once you have.  

If you disagree w/a specific point that Mr Coleman makes, I'd be interested in hearing the basis for that disagreement.  I liked what I read, and wish that I'd been able to as articulately and eloquently form my own thoughts and opinions. 

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6 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

IIRC - I told you that I disagreed with your focus on quotas, and felt that the discrimination laws that are in place have been in place long enough to be accepted as the right and proper way to do things, and that any place that was concerned about its success wanted the best candidates, and wouldn't discriminate against potential hires on the basis of race.   Go read the article - and if you dare, take a look at the author's picture once you have.  

If you disagree w/a specific point that Mr Coleman makes, I'd be interested in hearing the basis for that disagreement.  I liked what I read, and wish that I'd been able to as articulately and eloquently form my own thoughts and opinions. 

Ah yes, any place (school or business) "concerned about its success wanted the best candidates, and wouldn't discriminate against potential hires on the basis of race." Oddly enough, I agree with that.

Somehow, for many many such places, the best candidates are all white. Golly gee, they just were, cain't hep dat.

If you want grievance, check with Asian Americans' feelings about college admission by racial quota. They are the ones being punished for good behavior.

6 hours ago, Dog said:

 

 "......    ...     ... As these cracks widen, the far-Left responds by doubling down on the radical strain of black identity politics that caused these problems to begin with.......    ....    ..."

Coleman Hughes

https://quillette.com/2018/06/05/high-price-stale-grievances/

Yep, sounds like a totally non-partisan and well-reasoned, facts-only, no-blame approach to what the real problem must be. Quoting statistics from the turn of the century about Italians immigrants crime rate is another piece of the same.

-DSK

 

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6 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Ah yes, any place (school or business) "concerned about its success wanted the best candidates, and wouldn't discriminate against potential hires on the basis of race." Oddly enough, I agree with that.

Somehow, for many many such places, the best candidates are all white. Golly gee, they just were, cain't hep dat.

If you want grievance, check with Asian Americans' feelings about college admission by racial quota. They are the ones being punished for good behavior.

Yep, sounds like a totally non-partisan and well-reasoned, facts-only, no-blame approach to what the real problem must be. Quoting statistics from the turn of the century about Italians immigrants crime rate is another piece of the same.

-DSK

 

He makes the same point you did w/r/t the Asian demographic being slighted by racial quotas.  Read the article, or admit that you're either too lazy, or comfortable in your bias to consider another perspective. 

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why would I read partisan claptrap? you know I'm interested in arguments supported by fact. This is neither. This is just "well-written" opinion.. (baffling with bullshit is another way to look at it)

 

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1 minute ago, Raz'r said:

why would I read partisan claptrap? you know I'm interested in arguments supported by fact. This is neither. This is just "well-written" opinion.. (baffling with bullshit is another way to look at it)

If you didn't read it , you don't know, and that negates your opinion of the article. 

To your earlier poke at me for saying "most on the left" - you were right, I was wrong to say that, and should have instead said " most on the left who are participating in the discussions here".  

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15 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

If you didn't read it , you don't know, and that negates your opinion of the article. 

To your earlier poke at me for saying "most on the left" - you were right, I was wrong to say that, and should have instead said " most on the left who are participating in the discussions here".  

Actually, I wasn't busting your balls on the "most on the left" - I was pointing out that the author stated that in one of your excerpts.

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As a social theory, the pendulum one presented by the author is valid. However, I don't believe it's accurately represented in today's society. The pendulum has not swung too far - it is not even yet at the middle - but it has perhaps swung perhaps too fast. And therein lies one of the two factors that have led to racial and cultural anxiety.

The other factor in this is financial anxiety. Stock markets are doing well, even employment numbers look good. But that belies the fundamental fact that real world middle-class income has been steadily and significantly declining across 40 years. And this even amongst the evolution from 1 working parent families to 2 working parent families. The struggle, as kids these days say, is real. Add to that the also sizable reduction in education funding across the same time period and you end up with more people with less money and less understanding of the world around them.

Add to that some radical social change - which seems slow to some of us, but has in fact happened quite quickly - and you get a melting pot that is ripe for someone like Trumpy to come along and turn the financial anxiety to cultural anxiety. It's classic scapegoat-ism. The Nazi's did this in the 30's, and this time, instead of the Jews and gays, it's the Muslims, blacks, browns, women and non Christians.

America - here is your recipe for repair:

  • actually drain the swamp - remove corporations from politics by limiting donation size to 3 digits for individuals and corporations
  • double the current education funding - a nation of dumb people will not vote in their own best interest
  • actually perform tax reform to ensure Warren Buffet pays more tax than his secretary (currently he doesn't)
  • initiate a massive cultural exchange program for high school students in low income areas, sending them to other parts of the world for 30 days

 

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9 minutes ago, Nice! said:

As a social theory, the pendulum one presented by the author is valid. However, I don't believe it's accurately represented in today's society. The pendulum has not swung too far - it is not even yet at the middle - but it has perhaps swung perhaps too fast. And therein lies one of the two factors that have led to racial and cultural anxiety.

<SNIP>

 

I'd be interested in hearing the basis for this opinion, and would also enjoy hearing your opinion about the double-standard that the Coleman mentioned in the article. 

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3 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

No - I won't argue to prove the negative.   Did you read the article, or are you just replying based upon what you think he meant with the title? 

I read the article. I'm not asking you to prove a negative, just to support your opinion.

Try this ... have you had a parking ticket recently? Or maybe a moving violation ticket? Relative to your annual income, I'm guessing it was what, about 0.05%? Who sets the policy to how much you pay for that ticket?

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7 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

I'd be interested in hearing the basis for this opinion, and would also enjoy hearing your opinion about the double-standard that the Coleman mentioned in the article. 

Incarceration rates and salary rates point to what is still a disparity between black and white people in America. The pendulum is pointed at the middle, in my opinion, when those statistics are proportionally equal. Of course, a pendulum has momentum, and it needs to be recognized that if it swings to fast toward the middle it could be difficult to stop it going the other direction.

As for the double standards outlined by Coleman, I understand what he is saying. Affirmative action is fundamentally racist - it treats people of different races differently. Many years ago I was considering applying for the police force. I found out about a program - only for minorities - that offered a ride-along opportunity for folks considering a police career. Being white, I was excluded from this opportunity. Ultimately, this is a racist action - I get that. But the local force recognized that it needed proportional representation among its members, and this was a way to overcome the mostly-white applications that they were receiving. This was to make a better police force and ultimately a better society.

Many will say that all lives matter. And it's true, all lives do matter. But it's not an appropriate response to the Black Lives Matter movement. It would be like you going to the doctor with a broken arm and he doesn't want to look at just your arm, telling you that all your bones are important.

 

 

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50 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

He makes the same point you did w/r/t the Asian demographic being slighted by racial quotas.  Read the article, or admit that you're either too lazy, or comfortable in your bias to consider another perspective. 

So he's right about one thing? Good

You can call me lazy if it makes you feel better with your bigot-propping. I don't have the power to change your mind for you.

-DSK

 

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6 minutes ago, mikewof said:

I read the article. It's not asking you to prove a negative.

Try this ... have you had a parking ticket recently? Or maybe a moving violation ticket. Relative to your annual income, I'm guessing it was what, about 0.05%? Who sets the policy to how much you pay for that ticket?

I pay the same for a parking ticket as anyone else who got the same ticket.  the poor 19 yr old kid working 2 shifts at Sheetz is gonna have a lot harder time paying it than I will - but, waitaminute, how do we  know whether that kid's black, white, hispanic, male, female?   Where's the intentional racial bias, Mikey?  

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8 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

So he's right about one thing? Good

You can call me lazy if it makes you feel better with your bigot-propping. I don't have the power to change your mind for you.

-DSK

 

You're unwilling to read the article, and would rather just opine based upon your own unfounded ideas about what that thing you refused to read actually said and intended.  That's OK - lots of partisan hacks form their opinions the same way.    If you bother to read the article, read a little about the author, too.   

 

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Chessy, awhile back you wrote:

”Sorry - I'm not sure how to take your comment of an hour ago if you didn't intend it as vilification.   If I misunderstood, I'd enjoy being squared away - I'm not sitting there with you, I can only respond to what I think you meant by the words you wrote. “

     2 hours ago,  phillysailor said: 

And I’m not “vilifying everyone as racist” unless pointing out how unintentional racial bias affects hire/fire/prosecute/let-off-with-a-warning choices are viewed only through a defensive lens

     3 hours ago,  phillysailor said:

The more you can empower the wealthy and offer them tax breaks while slashing funding and other supports for schools, housing subsidies and jobs programs, the more you can keep the rabble in their place.

 

The second snip  you quoted has no reference to anything other than structural inequities enjoyed by the wealthy, and perpetuated in order to maintain that status quo. Ie, the rich enjoy being rich, and its probable that many of the rich do tolerate/exude racial bias in keeping other groups down. But primarily this comment referenced economic bias .

 I don’t accuse teachers or most cops of overt racism, but I do recognize that schools and police do punish and serve the public in ways that have a racial bias when examined. 

Combine these two forces and we can see that many folks in America do not have similar opportunities. I’m not trying to equalize outcomes, just helping some  start to recognize dissimilar starting points and journeys. 

No villification, just observation which may eventually affect action. 

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3 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

I pay the same for a parking ticket as anyone else who got the same ticket.  the poor 19 yr old kid working 2 shifts at Sheetz is gonna have a lot harder time paying it than I will - but, waitaminute, how do we  know whether that kid's black, white, hispanic, male, female?   Where's the intentional racial bias, Mikey?  

Okay, now, what is the purpose of that parking ticket or moving violation? Fund raising? Punitive? Both?

To your question, the ticket is mostly color blind. Its effect is largely economic. But we can get into that in a bit ...

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an attempt at context;

today, racial issues are for pussies and whiners, just ask anyone who's been forced to deal with chronic, 'debilitating' mental health problems that force you beyond the outer perimeters of society and leave you with nothing to find your way back. talk about second class humans, let alone 'citizens'.

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36 minutes ago, 3to1 said:

an attempt at context;

today, racial issues are for pussies and whiners, just ask anyone who's been forced to deal with chronic, 'debilitating' mental health problems that force you beyond the outer perimeters of society and leave you with nothing to find your way back. talk about second class humans, let alone 'citizens'.

Talking about an issue like race is not “for pussies & whiners” just because there is cancer and bombs and psych disorders. Most of us can chew gum & walk at the same time. If you don’t want to read/discuss it go to another thread, ratiohead

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8 minutes ago, phillysailor said:

Talking about an issue like race is not “for pussies & whiners” just because there is cancer and bombs and psych disorders. Most of us can chew gum & walk at the same time. If you don’t want to read/discuss it go to another thread, ratiohead

I get it, it's too hard, too bleak, and it's not funny or fun.

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1 hour ago, mikewof said:

Okay, now, what is the purpose of that parking ticket or moving violation? Fund raising? Punitive? Both?

To your question, the ticket is mostly color blind. Its effect is largely economic. But we can get into that in a bit ...

You've answered your own question Wofsey - where do you want to take it? (note - I disagree completely w/the courts & cops being used as armed tax collectors - in any circumstance)

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1 hour ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

You've answered your own question Wofsey - where do you want to take it? (note - I disagree completely w/the courts & cops being used as armed tax collectors - in any circumstance)

So punitive? At least in part?

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Too many straw men in this article. Perhaps when he matures and moves out of undergraduate philosophy course, he might be something to absorb and enjoy. Not now, not yet.

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9 hours ago, phillysailor said:

The more you can ignore racial statistics in policing and sentencing, starting in schools and continuing throughout life, the more you can tell yourself that racial grievances are stale. 

 

You are like........ it is OK to steal, rape, murder because I am black.......?????  What fucking planet do you live on??????? Do you believe that is what is taught in inner city schools......

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8 hours ago, d'ranger said:

Everything costs more - your credit sucks, if you have any. Can't get a bank account? Going to pay for check cashing. Good job? uh, not going to happen without good credit. Car insurance costs more, the pay day lenders, the huckster car dealers, rent to own ripoffs, everything works to keep poor people in debt.  Want to know how I know this?  If you have ever been poor and I mean lost everything and owe on top of it no explanation is necessary.  Did I recover? yep, certainly didn't hurt that I am male, white and college educated but there were some rough moments, including being arrested for an unpaid parking ticket and facing 3 days in jail if I can't find someone to bail me on a Sunday morning.  That was almost $500 20 years ago that I really didn't have.  Had a job interview scheduled or I would have said fuck it, lets do it. Of course that would have racked up more storage for my car that was towed.  Ever been taunted by a cop nazi? I have and can only wonder how much worse if were a big scary looking black guy. 

I interact daily with people from all walks of life and I don't bullshit, embellish or lie.  Poor people often make poor self defeating decisions, black people brand themselves by naming their children obviously black names, I could go on but like most subjects here few are interested in learning.

I am interested in learning!! I don't think my dad ever borrowed a dime. He didn't have a credit card. American Express refused him because he couldn't show credit history. I learned "credit" when I wanted to buy something I couldn't afford. The Navy Federal Credit Union spaced my payments to my discharge.  I had a substandard high school education because I was born in the USA which everybody says bigly has shitty schools. I have been saying for almost a decade on these forums that inner city schools are failing the innercity youth and get excoriated by the lefty commies faggots on these boards. So , yes , I am interested in learning......

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7 hours ago, TMSAIL said:

Just reading the responses for those on the left.  It is clear they either didn’t read the article or read it and instantly dismissed it because they represent the people and views the author is addressing. 

I always wonder why a Vietnamese family that came to America as boat people with nothing more than the cloths on their backs.  Adapted so well that their kids and grandkids are going to college earning top degrees.   In other words they are thriving living the American Dream.   Yet generations of african  Americans  with all the options available still can not achieve the same dream. 

Actually I don’t wonder. It’s described in one word.  Sacrifice.  Those parents ate rice lived in basements saved every penny to make their kids lives better.  That attitude is passed down.  Homework and classes vs sports.  No TV, no game boys no surfing the web you get a B in math you are in trouble. 

In other words no excuses 

My best boss ever  was squirreled from Vietnam as an infant. Her dad built a boat to escape.  They ship wrecked for months on an Island. Finally rescued they were sponsored by a vet into central Wisconsin. She is the black sheep of the family, she has only a couple of Masters degrees, her sibs all have PhDs.

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1 minute ago, warbird said:

My best boss ever  was squirreled from Vietnam as an infant. Her dad built a boat to escape.  They ship wrecked for months on an Island. Finally rescued they were sponsored by a vet into central Wisconsin. She is the black sheep of the family, she has only a couple of Masters degrees, her sibs all have PhDs.

The thread should be “high price of stale cheese” for you. 

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6 hours ago, Nice! said:

  Add to that the also sizable reduction in education funding across the same time period and you end up with more people with less money and less understanding of the world around them.

 

 

Were you born a fuckwit or just recently achieved that status after your lobotomy? Enrollment continues DOWN as spending continues UP in most school districts. Push that NEA dick out of your ass.....

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3 minutes ago, Fakenews said:

How long ago was this?

She is early/mid forties, so shortly after the end of the Vietnam war

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45 minutes ago, Fakenews said:

So she got here in say 73 as an infant.  But you also have said you are presently in your eighties.  I’m just sensing a lot of bullshit in your story....

I am 60, told her 1 year ago , "xxxxxxx, we have to have a talk"  (about me retiring)........

Where did I infer I was an octogenarian?????

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4 hours ago, warbird said:

You are like........ it is OK to steal, rape, murder because I am black.......?????  What fucking planet do you live on??????? Do you believe that is what is taught in inner city schools......

What a twit :)

punishment stats from schools (including kindergarten) aren’t often about rape or murder. When you are capable of taking part in a rational conversation please try again.

Chickenhawk, this argument was puerile. Go play with Legos or action figures. 

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14 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Did either of you read the article?   

No, as evadent.

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14 hours ago, TMSAIL said:

Just reading the responses for those on the left.  It is clear they either didn’t read the article or read it and instantly dismissed it because they represent the people and views the author is addressing. 

I always wonder why a Vietnamese family that came to America as boat people with nothing more than the cloths on their backs.  Adapted so well that their kids and grandkids are going to college earning top degrees.   In other words they are thriving living the American Dream.   Yet generations of african  Americans  with all the options available still can not achieve the same dream. 

Actually I don’t wonder. It’s described in one word.  Sacrifice.  Those parents ate rice lived in basements saved every penny to make their kids lives better.  That attitude is passed down.  Homework and classes vs sports.  No TV, no game boys no surfing the web you get a B in math you are in trouble. 

In other words no excuses 

Yep.  I've asked the same question before vis a vis other immigrants who come here with absolutely nothing, not even the ability to speak the language.  Talk about starting with a handicap.

Yet within a generation, most of those are not only OK but they are thriving.  I knew several Mexican migrants who came to the US as seasonal vegetable pickers and construction workers and within less than 10 years owned their own small businesses, owned a nice middle class house and drove decent middle class trucks and cars.  When I was first there in NV, we had a housecleaner who came in once a month.  Her husband worked in construction.  Both here in the US on Green cards.  Super nice couple and we kept in touch even after I left Vegas.  She now owns her own cleaning business and employs 10 people now.  They literally started with nothing and came to the US with only their clothes.  

What's the difference?  The difference is these people, like the hard working hispanics or the asians (or fill in the blank), come to the US without any expectations that they are "owed" anything and that anything they get will be through their own hard work.  And that education for their children is their central focus.  That is the difference. 

I believe the continued multi-generational poverty of the black community is a direct result of a continued culture of dependance forced on them because of white guilt.  To me, those continued policies that keep blacks dependent are just as racist if not more so than if we put them back in actual chains.  That is the REAL institutional racism here.  

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13 hours ago, Nice! said:

As a social theory, the pendulum one presented by the author is valid. However, I don't believe it's accurately represented in today's society. The pendulum has not swung too far - it is not even yet at the middle - but it has perhaps swung perhaps too fast. And therein lies one of the two factors that have led to racial and cultural anxiety.

The other factor in this is financial anxiety. Stock markets are doing well, even employment numbers look good. But that belies the fundamental fact that real world middle-class income has been steadily and significantly declining across 40 years. And this even amongst the evolution from 1 working parent families to 2 working parent families. The struggle, as kids these days say, is real. Add to that the also sizable reduction in education funding across the same time period and you end up with more people with less money and less understanding of the world around them.

Add to that some radical social change - which seems slow to some of us, but has in fact happened quite quickly - and you get a melting pot that is ripe for someone like Trumpy to come along and turn the financial anxiety to cultural anxiety. It's classic scapegoat-ism. The Nazi's did this in the 30's, and this time, instead of the Jews and gays, it's the Muslims, blacks, browns, women and non Christians.

America - here is your recipe for repair:

  • actually drain the swamp - remove corporations from politics by limiting donation size to 3 digits for individuals and corporations
  • double the current education funding - a nation of dumb people will not vote in their own best interest
  • actually perform tax reform to ensure Warren Buffet pays more tax than his secretary (currently he doesn't)
  • initiate a massive cultural exchange program for high school students in low income areas, sending them to other parts of the world for 30 days

 

I agree with all of this.  Even the RFR at the end.  

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9 hours ago, badlatitude said:

Too many straw men in this article. Perhaps when he matures and moves out of undergraduate philosophy course, he might be something to absorb and enjoy. Not now, not yet.

Could you point out a couple of these strawmen, please?  

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17 hours ago, amphib44 said:

Can anyone explain to me the disparity in sentencing guidelines with respect to cocaine versus "crack" cocaine?  

http://michigancriminalattorney.com/difference-crack-powder-cocaine-criminal-justice-system/

 

"In the 80’s a less dangerous form of cocaine freebase was created called crack cocaine. The process also removed the salt from the powder except this was done by mixing it with baking soda then heating it. After it cools it hardens into rocks. Crack cocaine is much cheaper which aided its popularity. A perceived “crack epidemic” resulted in the mid 1980’s which prompted congressional hearings during the summer of 1986. The result of the hearings created the following findings: 1. Crack cocaine is much more addictive than powered, 2. Crack produced psychological effects that were worse than powder, 3. Crack attracted users that could not afford powder particularly young people, and 4. Crack cocaine led to more crime."

 

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15 hours ago, Nice! said:
  • actually perform tax reform to ensure Warren Buffet pays more tax than his secretary (currently he doesn't)

 

My personal goal for tax reform has always been simplification so questions like these can actually be answered by someone who doesn't have a CPA.  I'm not even going to comment on the fairness of it.  This is just some of the 'math' of it. 

 

https://fee.org/articles/5-warren-buffetts-federal-tax-rate-is-less-than-his-secretarys/

  • Warren Buffett created a new tax metric by combining individual income taxes and payroll taxes into one “federal tax rate.”  He then asserted that his 2010 “federal tax rate” of 17.4 percent was 18.6 percentage points lower than the 36.0 percent average “federal tax rate” paid by his office workers.
  • The Social Security and Medicare taxing mechanisms in place in 2010 were inherently fair.  Ascribing a “federal tax rate” differential to employee-paid payroll taxes, as Buffett did, is analytically incorrect. This 7.65 percentage point “federal tax rate” differential is a mirage.
  • Incredibly, Buffett included employer-paid (matching) payroll taxes in his calculations as well, thus doubling the 7.65 percentage point differential.
  • Buffett ignored, in his calculations, the roughly $1.6 billion in corporate income taxes he bore in 2010 as a one-third owner of Berkshire Hathaway. He also ignored his share (roughly $400 million) of Social Security and Medicare matching taxes that Berkshire Hathaway paid to employees.
  • The analytically correct comparison, excluding individual payroll taxes and including corporate income and payroll taxes, shows that Buffett’s “federal tax rate” was actually over 10 percentage points higher than the average rate of his office workers in 2010.
  • For further information, see:

"The Buffett Rule Will Create Jobs?" by Roy Cordato: http://tinyurl.com/mn4z9rr

"The Tax-the-Rich Truth Squad" by Steven Horwitz: http://tinyurl.com/kt8kcds

"From Rags to Riches to Rags" by Mark R. Rank: http://tinyurl.com/lzdg7ym

"Selling Envy" by Terree P. Summer: http://tinyurl.com/lxdrfac.

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21 hours ago, mikewof said:

The author has a point if the scope of his argument is little more today college admission boards.

But the idea of a "stale" grievance is obliterated the moment you spend some time in an urban ghetto. Only the best and most gifted are able to escape that. The nature of the economy is glue ... poor people pay more for everything, their lives and families can be ripped apart by little more than a traffic ticket. Generations on top of generations get stuck there because of pure economic inertia.

 

Only the "best and most gifted" escape?  There are a lot of gifted folks who won't do the work it takes to escape or even move out of their niche.  Those will never be the best no matter how often their momma tells them they are.

Thomas Edison is reputed to have said a couple of things about that:  His bio is at the link there.  His early years are interesting.

"Genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration",  "Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up", and "I have not failed, I've just found 10,000 ways that don't work"

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Bringing this back to the OP - how many of the folks poking back actually read the article?  if not, why not?  Because Dog posted it?  because the excerpts that were shared showed something you didn't like?    I seem to recall y'all falling all over yourselves to call those on the right "closed minded" when an article BJ posted presented a "blame whites for everything" perspective when based upon that snippet many of us decided that the article wasn't anything we wanted to read. 

Open minded and considerate?  yeah...   Read the article - read a little about the author, and then tell me where you agree/disagree and why. 

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3 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Thomas Edison is reputed to have said a couple of things about that:  His bio is at the link there.  His early years are interesting.

"Genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration",  "Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up", and "I have not failed, I've just found 10,000 ways that don't work"

 

That was easy for him to say as he was indeed a genius. 

I think IQ plays a much more important role with regards to success along with conscientious, and motivation (1, 2 and 3 in that order). Growing up in the urban ghetto environment most certainly plays a role with regards to lost potential however that would be regardless of skin color. 

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5 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Could you point out a couple of these strawmen, please?  

"When a black person is treated unfairly, our society responds swiftly and robustly."

"Yet there we were—young black men born decades after anything that could rightly be called ‘oppression’ had ended"

"Aside from outlawing formalized bigotry, many progressives believe that things haven’t improved all that much."

"Racist attitudes towards blacks, if only in the form of implicit bias, are thought to be widespread"

There are more, but you get the drift. The kid is smart and he will be great, let him mature before you use his undergraduate expertise to deride progressives.

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21 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

"When a black person is treated unfairly, our society responds swiftly and robustly."

"Yet there we were—young black men born decades after anything that could rightly be called ‘oppression’ had ended"

"Aside from outlawing formalized bigotry, many progressives believe that things haven’t improved all that much."

"Racist attitudes towards blacks, if only in the form of implicit bias, are thought to be widespread"

There are more, but you get the drift. The kid is smart and he will be great, let him mature before you use his undergraduate expertise to deride progressives.

How are those observations of his strawmen, BL?  Kudos, BTW - it sounds like you actually read the article.  If so - do you agree or disagree with his general premise about double standards?  The examples he cited? 

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1 hour ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Bringing this back to the OP - how many of the folks poking back actually read the article?  if not, why not?  Because Dog posted it?  because the excerpts that were shared showed something you didn't like?    I seem to recall y'all falling all over yourselves to call those on the right "closed minded" when an article BJ posted presented a "blame whites for everything" perspective when based upon that snippet many of us decided that the article wasn't anything we wanted to read. 

Open minded and considerate?  yeah...   Read the article - read a little about the author, and then tell me where you agree/disagree and why. 

I read it. Meh

The quotes that you & your fellow righties thought worth quoting show why -you- think it's eloquent and intellectually important. It's just a malicious screed against black progressives. The fact that it was written by a black person adds no special merit, unless you're a racist.

-DSK

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11 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

How are those observations of his strawmen, BL?  Kudos, BTW - it sounds like you actually read the article.  If so - do you agree or disagree with his general premise about double standards?  The examples he cited? 

What Steam Flyer said and I'll add Coleman Hughes is still taking undergraduate studies, and the right likes to find smart people to slap around the left. Which would be fine, but if they took the time to understand what he has written, they would know the foolishness of sophomore level philosophy.

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1 hour ago, Mickey Rat said:

That was easy for him to say as he was indeed a genius. 

I think IQ plays a much more important role with regards to success along with conscientious, and motivation (1, 2 and 3 in that order). Growing up in the urban ghetto environment most certainly plays a role with regards to lost potential however that would be regardless of skin color. 

All three of those add up to "DON'T QUIT" and quitting is an individual thing.  That doesn't mean you should never quit on a particular path.  It means that sometimes you find out that you are on the wrong path and you need to abandon it for another.  That's not quitting, that's a positive change.

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2 hours ago, Mickey Rat said:

That was easy for him to say as he was indeed a genius. 

I think IQ plays a much more important role with regards to success along with conscientious, and motivation (1, 2 and 3 in that order). Growing up in the urban ghetto environment most certainly plays a role with regards to lost potential however that would be regardless of skin color. 

He was indeed but, read the biography linked at his name and consider the disabilities(social and physical) that he overcame.

Today, the school would have dosed him up with Ritalin and treated him as a 'problem child'.

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"A malicious screed written against black progressives"?   "sophomore level philosophy"?   

Lovely sentiments expressed without an iota of honestly expressed disagreement with anything that the author said.  You don't like it - I didn't expect you to, because it flies in the face of many things that you hold (without basis, IMHO) to be known truths.   I  applaud you both, Steamers and BL, for actually reading it after two days of comments. 

Is anything that he said factually incorrect?   Do you deny that the double standard exists?  Do you deny that the black attitudes he mentioned contribute to the divide?  Do you deny that the success of other demographic groups he mentions demeans the credibility of the notion of blacks being held back by intentional discrimination and bias?   

Do you disagree that those things can and DO exist concurrently with the impediments to black progress that you champion?   

Discounting these things as a "screed' and "sophomoric" is disingenuous dismissal - and is, IMHO, a large part of why the perspective you support isn't afforded the credence you want for it from people like me. 

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3 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

"A malicious screed written against black progressives"?   "sophomore level philosophy"?   

Lovely sentiments expressed without an iota of honestly expressed disagreement with anything that the author said.  You don't like it - I didn't expect you to, because it flies in the face of many things that you hold (without basis, IMHO) to be known truths.   I  applaud you both, Steamers and BL, for actually reading it after two days of comments. 

Is anything that he said factually incorrect?   Do you deny that the double standard exists?  Do you deny that the black attitudes he mentioned contribute to the divide?  Do you deny that the success of other demographic groups he mentions demeans the credibility of the notion of blacks being held back by intentional discrimination and bias?   

Do you disagree that those things can and DO exist concurrently with the impediments to black progress that you champion?   

Discounting these things as a "screed' and "sophomoric" is disingenuous dismissal - and is, IMHO, a large part of why the perspective you support isn't afforded the credence you want for it from people like me. 

I could tear it apart, but what would the point be? Why destroy someone who is growing into their own concepts and ideas? The problem is your own concept of racial politics; if you want to create a separate thread for that discussion, I am good with that. Knocking someone who is in the middle of development seems harsh and out of line to me. 

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3 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Bringing this back to the OP - how many of the folks poking back actually read the article?  if not, why not?  Because Dog posted it?  because the excerpts that were shared showed something you didn't like?    I seem to recall y'all falling all over yourselves to call those on the right "closed minded" when an article BJ posted presented a "blame whites for everything" perspective when based upon that snippet many of us decided that the article wasn't anything we wanted to read. 

Open minded and considerate?  yeah...   Read the article - read a little about the author, and then tell me where you agree/disagree and why. 

No - already stated why.

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4 hours ago, Saorsa said:

Only the "best and most gifted" escape?  There are a lot of gifted folks who won't do the work it takes to escape or even move out of their niche.  Those will never be the best no matter how often their momma tells them they are.

Thomas Edison is reputed to have said a couple of things about that:  His bio is at the link there.  His early years are interesting.

"Genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration",  "Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up", and "I have not failed, I've just found 10,000 ways that don't work"

Yeah, my point is that you have to be an exceptional person to escape poverty. Exceptionally hard-working, exceptionally lucky, or exceptionally talented.

But guys like you and I, we can have pretty comfortable lives while being little more than average guys. Even if we aren't exceptional in any way, we still get to build on the some level of comfort or wealth. Had Thomas Edison had to grow up in a family that lost 40% of its revenue to overdrafts or check cashing, or overpriced shelf-stable food in a crap inner city supermarket, or burn up hours per day sitting on a bus to go to a minimum wage job 30 miles away, would he have become the successful inventor he became?

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