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JasonSeibert

The requirement for SATELLITE PHONES is antiquated

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A satellite phone requires full duplex link up to hold a conversation. A satellite texting/burst communications device only requires a small window of simplex link up to send an emergency message and send vital information. A satellite texting device, like the DeLorme InReach platform, I found, to be far superior to an actual phone.

Based on the experience in the Bermuda 1-2 and the "Spadefoot" incident, when "Spadefoot" was unable to obtain a reliable connection, the In Reach system performed flawlessly.

The intent of a communication system is to be a reliable way to communicate with anyone anywhere in the world - the intent isn't to "talk" to someone, but to communicate. At $270 for the equipment, and $30 per month for unlimited messaging - which just simply works - is a superior solution that should be mandated as the minimum device for any near or offshore race.

Humbly for your consideration.

 

Jason Seibert

 

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41 minutes ago, JasonSeibert said:

A satellite phone requires full duplex link up to hold a conversation. A satellite texting/burst communications device only requires a small window of simplex link up to send an emergency message and send vital information. A satellite texting device, like the DeLorme InReach platform, I found, to be far superior to an actual phone.

Based on the experience in the Bermuda 1-2 and the "Spadefoot" incident, when "Spadefoot" was unable to obtain a reliable connection, the In Reach system performed flawlessly.

The intent of a communication system is to be a reliable way to communicate with anyone anywhere in the world - the intent isn't to "talk" to someone, but to communicate. At $270 for the equipment, and $30 per month for unlimited messaging - which just simply works - is a superior solution that should be mandated as the minimum device for any near or offshore race.

Humbly for your consideration.

 

Jason Seibert

 

I really don't want to text back and forth for medical advice...

 

-

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Oh - sure - well, the device allows for email back and forth - so, you can get a list of full first aid instructions sent to you in complete steps.

But that is a good point. You should, however, per regulations, be fully trained in first aid and have a medical book with you.

 

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However, would you want a reliable, works all the time way to say you need medical help? Or do you want a phone that doesn't work all the time?

My point is - this device should be required. If you WANT a satellite phone, you should be free to do that.
As a required piece of equipment, to say that a device that doesn't always work is the "minimum" versus one that always works, is a failure to understand intent of safety.

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21 minutes ago, JasonSeibert said:

Oh - sure - well, the device allows for email back and forth - so, you can get a list of full first aid instructions sent to you in complete steps.

The InReach is capable of SMS - a text message - not email..., so it's 160 characters

InReach does have some sort of SMS to email gateway, that works both ways, but you are not really sending, or receiving an email.., it's still SMS, and i think each message sent that way still has the character limit. additionally, while the recipient may view the message in an email client, to respond they are directed to a website with a form. It's a bit of a pain in the ass on both ends for anything complicated.

I have been onboard (mid-atlantic) when an Iridium handset was used to communicate with a doctor for a potentially serious infection. being able to have a conversation with the doctor was pretty useful.

InReach uses the Iridium network, and it is true that SMS messages don't require as god a connection as a voice call.., but as has been discussed here many times, most problems with Iridium voice and data calls are due to some sort of poor installation or operator error. With a properly installed external antenna, connections at sea are pretty good. 

Nevertheless, I think this is an area where OA's could think about letting each boat decide what is best for them. 

 

 

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I have no idea what this thread you have started is about. My only suggestion is spend the bucks according to need (capital then operating)) and space for antenna and that runs between a HF (with a modem for data and GMDSS compliant if DSC) through to a 500 mbs device platform plus a GMDSS compliant satelite platform with a terminal if you want it.

PS. I forgot Pidgeons before HF and that is not fair to DSC HF because properly set up in terms of dollars both capital and operating and reliability for data and voice, probably the best bang for buck going.

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Hmmm...

You may be correct on the user experience from the land-based side; however, the system at sea is seamless to the user at sea, and I think that is the important thing.

You are correct, it should be the user choice, and yes, you are correct, installation is the key. 

Scenario - satellite phone hooked up to external antennae. Boat is struck by lightening. All systems are fried. Sat phone no longer has the external antennae and comunications are down because the external antennae fried the phone through the cable.

InReach? Nope - works perfectly fine.

There are always extreme scenarios. As prior service military, reliability, simplicity, ease of use, and durability are key - I take the same approach to my single-handed racing. 

Yes - I'm going to get an Iridium Go (legal this year for the Newport Bermuda if you have a cell phone for two-way voice coms) for added features and routing, but you can bet I won't go ANYWHERE without the InReach.

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2 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

I have no idea what this thread you have started is about. My only suggestion is spend the bucks according to need (capital then operating)) and space for antenna and that runs between a HF (with a modem for data) through to a 500 mbs device plus a GMDSS platform with a terminal.

Well, I suppose I should have been more plain in my intent. This post is about safety checklists and required minimum equipment for ocean racing. 

As stated above by US7070 - there should be a minimum accepted standard for communicating with shore-based operations for notifications and/or safety reasons. My suggestion is that the required minimum, a full duplex satellite phone, does not actually meet that minimum requirement as it is not fully reliable. Instead, I argue, that a phone should be a choice/feature, and the InReach system should be the required minimum. 

For the price of ONE phone system, you could have an InReach in your ditch bag, life raft, and NAV station - however, just having one is enough (because it just works).

Again, humbly, these are my thoughts based on research, and direct experience in emergency situations at sea.

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Sounds like you're making a case for mandatory exterior antennas installed and verified by a proper authorized dealer + InReach redundancy. Not removing a requirement.

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1 minute ago, Miffy said:

Sounds like you're making a case for mandatory exterior antennas.. 

For Sat phones a requirement in most Cat 1 races around the world I thought.

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5 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

For Sat phones a requirement in most Cat 1 races around the world I thought.

Required for Newport Bermuda - not sure if the exterior antenna is consistently required. But I was trying to say he's making the argument we should have an addition InReach device and not that the sat phone w/ exterior antenna is no longer required.

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The utility of the InReach is robust:

Live active tracking - turn it on, and it provides constant position reports.
Hit the SOS button and the emergency response team deploys rescue operations to your exact location.
Water proof.
48 hour constant battery life.
Burst communication - either through cell phone integration or through the device directly.
Monthly subscription can be suspended at any point with no extra fee. Monthly subscription is $30 per month for unlimited use. Add $20 per year for $100,000 of rescue insurance.
...

Is there a sat phone that does all of that for $250? IF there is, I'd love to know about it and I'll put it on my boat. If not - this is my required piece of equipment.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, JasonSeibert said:

The utility of the InReach is robust:

Are you pitching for or already have an InReach dealer spot sown up?

If you want to get rescued you comply with the SI's of your race, if not racing then if not GMDSS compliant you are an idiot. If you want to leave breadcrumbs..well leave breadcrumbs and the miniscule sat platform you speak of means they just float maybe higher.

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Ha! no. I'm not a dealer, have no stock, don't have a stake.

This is on my mind as the Bermuda 1-2 was a year ago. There were two moments where the InReach was needed and it worked perfectly. Once for Spadefoot, and once for my own issue when my mast split 100 miles off Newport on the return race.

Complying with the SI's don't guarantee rescue, but I understand your point. 

Now, I may be an idiot - I'm open for that to be possible.

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Here's the Iridium Extreme - 

Has tracking, has an sos button, has sms services, and supports two-way calling:
https://www.amazon.com/Iridium-Extreme-9575-Satellite-Phone/dp/B00DPK206E

Here's the InReach - 
Does everything except two way calling.

https://www.amazon.com/DeLorme-inReach-SE-Satellite-Tracker/dp/B00BX7TJ2O/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?s=wireless&ie=UTF8&qid=1528384510&sr=1-1-spons&keywords=inreach&psc=1

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Jason, Classe mini did not want sat phone, now the have got an exemption, minis will carry a tracker and an extra one to use as communication device. Use it and your disqualified.

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11 minutes ago, LeoV said:

Jason, Classe mini did not want sat phone, now the have got an exemption, minis will carry a tracker and an extra one to use as communication device. Use it and your disqualified.

I'm not sure I understand from your post what causes the disqualification?

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Classe Mini, no outside assistance allowed.

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1 hour ago, JasonSeibert said:

Here's the Iridium Extreme - 

Has tracking, has an sos button, has sms services, and supports two-way calling:
https://www.amazon.com/Iridium-Extreme-9575-Satellite-Phone/dp/B00DPK206E

Here's the InReach - 
Does everything except two way calling.

https://www.amazon.com/DeLorme-inReach-SE-Satellite-Tracker/dp/B00BX7TJ2O/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?s=wireless&ie=UTF8&qid=1528384510&sr=1-1-spons&keywords=inreach&psc=1

not really...

the Iridium handset will also make an internet connection that, while slow, is perfectly adequate for downloading all the weather files (gribs, surface analyses and forecasts, text forecasts) you need for Bermuda Race, Transat.., and so on. It does "real" email too.

 

 

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The ability to have internet is not a safety issue, that's a strategic issue. 

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2 minutes ago, JasonSeibert said:

The ability to have internet is not a safety issue, that's a strategic issue. 

you said they did the same things except for the voice call - that was incorrect.

I think most offshore sailors would say that not having the ability to get good weather forecasts might be a safety issue

but like i said - i'm not arguing that a phone should be required - if you don't want to bring one that's fine with me.

 

 

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You can't get internet with the In Reach; however, there is weather provided in the InReach system.

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28 minutes ago, JasonSeibert said:

You can't get internet with the In Reach; however, there is weather provided in the InReach system.

it's not adequate for ocean sailing - at least by the standards of most offshore sailors

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30 minutes ago, JasonSeibert said:

You can't get internet with the In Reach; however, there is weather provided in the InReach system.


Hardly appropriate for racing or even on any passage longer than 7 days. You have to setup waypoints or specific requested lat long - each request is 1 USD. How many requests do I have to do manually to get enough data for a routing solutions for a 2 week passage?

I don't want to put down the product - it is a good simple one with some models that also provide backup navigation charts - but it belongs in a grab bag.

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Again, I'm not on the sales team, make no money off of it, period.

Yes, it should be in a grab bag - required minimum.

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So either A: you work for InReach or B: you work for an InReach dealer because I've seen a ton of posts like yours both here and on other boating forums.

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1 hour ago, TPG said:

So either A: you work for InReach or B: you work for an InReach dealer because I've seen a ton of posts like yours both here and on other boating forums.

Perhaps, or, the other alternative is that the technology saved two asses in a race a year ago, mine and someone else's, when the required safety device in today's races failed... so there's that.

 

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1 hour ago, JasonSeibert said:

Perhaps, or, the other alternative is that the technology saved two asses in a race a year ago, mine and someone else's, when the required safety device in today's races failed... so there's that.

 

the primary "required safety device" in today's races is really the EPIRB.., not the sat phone.

 

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9 hours ago, JasonSeibert said:

Oh - sure - well, the device allows for email back and forth - so, you can get a list of full first aid instructions sent to you in complete steps.

But that is a good point. You should, however, per regulations, be fully trained in first aid and have a medical book with you.
 

Based on that logic, if everyone was trained in first aid and had a medical book at home, local GP practices could shut down and hospitals could reduce medical staff with medical emergencies handled by the the first aid trained public and SMS's to and from a medical call centre. LOL

In a medical emergency the last thing you want to be doing is fucking around typing long text's into your mobile phone so it can be sent by your inreach and waiting for a reply and repeating the process.

Sure have a inReach  for the tracking and text chats and as a backup if the phone gets fried, but have the phone still. 

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As a designated medical officer on a yacht doing remote miles - I demand a sat phone and 24/7 access to medical advice & support - it's a responsibility I take very seriously. No medical kit and book can deliver the "here & now" emergency info & support. A text based system would be a poor second choice. I recently did a 3700m delivery of a race yacht in a region with very little support (San Diego - Tahiti) and was well prepared and well equipped. A previous medical emergency mid sth Atlantic (Capetown -Rio race) taught me how critical sat phone and medical kits are (The crewman had a severe hernia that resulted in sepsis and losing 10cm of his sm.intestine....) Without access to a sat phone, an over specced medical kit and medical support the result could have been tragic. 

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Harsh crowd here ... I get what Jason has said and it is an alternative and works.. I'll consider it...

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6 hours ago, TPG said:

So either A: you work for InReach or B: you work for an InReach dealer because I've seen a ton of posts like yours both here and on other boating forums.

Yeah, it seems a bit off. Someone who is this adamant that a certain product is the solution to everything tends to have a vested interest. 

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14 hours ago, us7070 said:

the primary "required safety device" in today's races is really the EPIRB.., not the sat phone.

 

And they are very very effective.

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1 hour ago, TPG said:

And they are very very effective.

..albeit you are probably already dead relying on that, but a great means for tracking the body(s) if still attached to same (EPIRB).

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2 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

..albeit you are probably already dead relying on that, but a great means for tracking the body(s) attached to same.

You're confusing a PLB and an EPIRB.

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14 minutes ago, TPG said:

You're confusing a PLB and an EPIRB.

You are the one who is very confused sunshine thinking a one way device surpasses a GMDSS two way distress comunication device. 406 EPIRBS and PLB's are just a Tombstone in most cases of real distress outside the sight of land.

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Not really sure why there are ppl chiming in insisting that one device is best or all that is required.

A shoreside physician is not going to be able to talk you thru a differential diagnosis via text as quickly. You can't palpate someone's abdomen, describe it to yourself and how it feels in text, send it - wait - get more feedback in a minute. You get a physician on the phone, they can naturally walk you thru where to push, how hard to push - if it feels tender or firm to the touch - where to go next.

If you're financially strapped - do whatever you want - but don't go around spreading bad information to justify your financial decisions. 

1) Sat phones can text, obtain weather files, non-emergency and emergency audio communications.

2) Iridium GO can text, obtain weather files, VoIP, but does not work well for emergency communications 

3) Inreach can text, obtain singular weather data points, can be a personal beacon & provide emergency navigation, but does not provide audio communications.

4) EPIRBs are not communication devices. They're beacons - and you either activate it or not. Not even should be part of this conversation.

If you have a budget that can't afford a loaner sat phone - I don't think you should be going offshore for racing. Get the EPIRB anyway, because your loved ones deserve to know.

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Here's the thing:

Race committee's state they are the arbitrators of what equipment SHALL be on a boat for required safety standards. I get it. I'm a lawyer. Risk is a bitch. But, BUT, that requirement should be based on the INTENT of the risk to mitigate. 

You want emergency medical services, guaranteed, carry an ER Doctor on your boat (I do - she's a lovely person). 
You want to talk? Get a SSB.
You want to send email? - get satellite internet.
You want to chat? - get a text.

But don't tell me that those things are REQUIRED to be safe at sea.

Safety at sea is based on preparation, knowledge, experience, and situational awareness.

For a 1000 years, men went to sea without grib files for weather. 
For a 1000 years, men went to sea without gps.

All of these requirements in the safety checklist are designed to compensate for some dickhead that left the dock that shouldn't have...

So - if there is going to be a minimum requirement that EVERYONE can have - does it HAVE to be a device that allows for two-way voice communication? 
As the minimum standard???

What express risk is solved by that requirement, such that IF YOU DON'T have that capability, disqualifies you from racing?

Just saying that it's better doesn't mean that it mitigates the risk. What fuckstick that left the dock has to have it that won't be safe on the ocean without being able to make a phone call?

Newport-Bermuda MANDATES that to enter the race you MUST have a satellite phone. 

There is no requirement to receive weather data, or to have a land based medical team...

All of these things folks are arguing is based on speculative reasons - they are not express, and as such, seems to be an arbitrary requirement as a barrier to entry of the race...
Now - it's their race, their rules. But WHAT ARE THEY TRYING TO SOLVE???

My statement that a satellite phone is antiquated is simple - a legacy Sat Phone doesn't provide the weather gribs, or the quick burst messages, or the emails... So, WHY IS A SIMPLE Sat Phone the requirement if all of those things are safety features?

If this requirement is to protect the idiots who leave the dock, then make it a full requirement to have a phone, internet, weather gribs, weather routing software, full navigation equipment, solar panels capable of charging a communication system in the event of battery or power generation loss, a spare mast to be carried on deck, 4 complete sets of every sail, a dinghy to be towed behind the boat, a personal chase boat, a helicopter, and your own personal ball washer to ensure that jock itch doesn't occur because you forgot to bring your butt paste with you....

 

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Have you thought of the possibility that event organizers aren't lawyers trying to cya, but actually informed by experience that functioning sat phones are the best compromise?

If you think SSBs are still viable and preferable over sat phones... I don't know what to say. 

You're essentially saying nothing is as good as a doc crew member so why bother re mitigation of risk - buy the inreach instead of renting a proper sat phone. 

If inreach isn't paying for your advocacy then I'm not sure why you're such a fan of inreach. 

Like many have said above, sat phones have many benefits both for competitive reasons and safety. 

They're like a multitool. 

You're advocating replacing the multitool with a screwdriver because... ideological reasons? When the prudent thing is to keep the multitool, and get the screwdriver in case the multitool fails. 

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At the moment 650 sailors are infuriated because the IYRU is trying to impose sat phones to them whereas it is completely against the spirit of the race. I wouldn't be too surprised if there is a bit of "interested friendship" between Inmarsat and the IYRU.

SSB used to be the method of choice for contacting a doc, I am not sure what is so wrong about it TBF.

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13 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

At the moment 650 sailors are infuriated because the IYRU is trying to impose sat phones to them whereas it is completely against the spirit of the race. I wouldn't be too surprised if there is a bit of "interested friendship" between Inmarsat and the IYRU.

SSB used to be the method of choice for contacting a doc, I am not sure what is so wrong about it TBF.

SSB's viability in certain parts relies on hobbyists/dedicated people monitoring the nets - in the Mini Transat & Azores event, the organizers fortunately don't have difficulty getting a fleet of dedicated and professional boats to accompany the fleet. There's nothing "wrong" with SSB - just nothing "inherently superior" about it and increasingly hard for event organizers to say "use this antiquated less reliable technology." 

For the Mini the cultural heritage and uniqueness of the event, no watermakers, no weather file routing - it makes sense that the skippers and class patrons pushed for no change. For Newport to Bermuda? Do people pay the entrant fee then decide to just run dockside weather routing and slow boat it because they have some ideological issue with satellite technology?

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3 minutes ago, Miffy said:

SSB's viability in certain parts relies on hobbyists/dedicated people monitoring the nets - in the Mini Transat & Azores event, the organizers fortunately don't have difficulty getting a fleet of dedicated and professional boats to accompany the fleet. There's nothing "wrong" with SSB - just nothing "inherently superior" about it and increasingly hard for event organizers to say "use this antiquated less reliable technology." 

For the Mini the cultural heritage and uniqueness of the event, no watermakers, no weather file routing - it makes sense that the skippers and class patrons pushed for no change. For Newport to Bermuda? Do people pay the entrant fee then decide to just run dockside weather routing and slow boat it because they have some ideological issue with satellite technology?

I did the entire Bermuda 1-2 on the weather briefing provided. No gribs under way. Seemed to do okay...

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Since you have started this thread for selling offshore communication antiquity, I have a Skanti HF-SSB for sale. It came out of a Swan 46 that has joined our fleet and it is so old that when I did a test call on it the other night Marconi himself answered. It weighs more than the keel, takes up the same space on board as a nuclear reactor and draws about the same amount of power as an AC/DC concert. All reasonable offers refused. 

Over.

image.jpg

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I will throw them in with the radio.

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2 hours ago, LB 15 said:

Since you have started this thread for selling offshore communication antiquity, I have a Skanti HF-SSB for sale. It came out of a Swan 46 that has joined our fleet and it is so old that when I did a test call on it the other night Marconi himself answered. It weighs more than the keel, takes up the same space on board as a nuclear reactor and draws about the same amount of power as an AC/DC concert. All reasonable offers refused. 

Over.

image.jpg

Thats a big fucker right there

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10 minutes ago, Gutterblack said:

Thats a big fucker right there

I think that is the tuner antenna connection not LB's dick??

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24 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

I will throw them in with the radio.

Actually I think Randumb wants your ankles...he has worn his out grabbing them.

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5 hours ago, LB 15 said:

Since you have started this thread for selling offshore communication antiquity, I have a Skanti HF-SSB for sale. It came out of a Swan 46 that has joined our fleet and it is so old that when I did a test call on it the other night Marconi himself answered. It weighs more than the keel, takes up the same space on board as a nuclear reactor and draws about the same amount of power as an AC/DC concert. All reasonable offers refused. 

Over.

 

Isn't SSB still part of the GMDSS recommendations? Not that they would want you to use antiquities like this one but one with DSC.

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SIngle side band modulation is maditory on all AM frequencies except 2182. This model has a manual tuning unit but no DSC function, So it wouldn't comply on vessels with mandatory DSC compliance. 

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